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View Full Version : Ozzie Speaks About Kenny, Rumors, Season


Lip Man 1
08-30-2011, 09:34 AM
Assuming the sources are accurate, it seems clear that the dynamic between Ozzie and Kenny is broken beyond repair. I would assume that JR, like it or not, is going to have to do something this off season.

I know I have heard some reports that the Sox contacted a few people earlier this season to gage potential interest in becoming manager.

My gut is telling me that at least some of the things cited in this column are true. It's going to be an interesting off season.

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7354760-419/ozzie-guillen-sounds-off-on-season-ken-williams-marlins.html

Lip

Fenway
08-30-2011, 09:42 AM
“Let’s get this straight: I’m the face of the franchise,’’ Guillen said.

A lot of so called MLB experts think Ozzie kept Dunn in the lineup to make KW look bad.

Yet now the kids are bring life to the White Sox...

I can't recall anything this nutty since 1964 when the Cardinals decided to fire Johnny Keane but would not announce it until the end of the season...and guess what - he wins the World Series.

So then Keane gets even... at the press conference to announce he will be back, he tells the St. Louis media he has accepted the Yankees job - but the Yankees hadn't told Yogi Berra he was fired yet.

asindc
08-30-2011, 09:42 AM
What does Cowley have against KW? It seems that he never passes up an opportunity to rip him, justified or not.

SI1020
08-30-2011, 09:42 AM
Cowley really doesn't like KW, however in this article he wasn't fronting for and kissing up to Ozzie the way he usually does. Oh he took a shot at KW again but the exteme bias wasn't evident this time at least to me. Like Cowley wrote, strange days.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 09:45 AM
What does Cowley have against KW? It seems that he never passes up an opportunity to rip him, justified or not.

KW's not a foul-mouthed media whore who produces a soundbyte a day with a dysfunctional clan of idiot sons that are not ashamed to publicly humilate themselves and others on Twitter.

If your job was to write sensational nonsense to try and get people to buy your worthless, irrelevant newspaper, you'd never want the Sox to fire Ozzie, either.

SI1020
08-30-2011, 09:46 AM
ďLetís get this straight: Iím the face of the franchise,íí Guillen said.

I lot of so called MLB experts think Ozzie kept Dunn in the lineup to make KW look bad.

Yet now the kids are bring life to the White Sox...

I can't recall anything this nutty since 1964 when the Cardinals decided to fire Johnny Keane but would not announce it until the end of the season...and guess what - he wins the World Series.

So then Keane gets even... at the press conference to announce he will be back, he tells the St. Louis media he has accepted the Yankees job - but the Yankees hadn't told Yogi Berra he was fired yet. Bad timing for Keane. The 4 decades and counting era of Yankee dominance was about to come to an abrupt end.

jdm2662
08-30-2011, 10:01 AM
It seems like every other week Cowley writes the same thing over and over again.

Sorry Ozzie, I have no sympathy for you. I'm a very fair guy, and will be the first one to say this entire season isn't all Ozzie's fault. Some players share the blame, too. I've always claimed Ozzie is a good manager despite being a major assphat. However, this year has been by far his worst year as manager. He's the king of the party when everything goes well. However, when any little criticism comes his way, he can never take it. Itís always about him making himself look good. Your act has gotten old Ozzie, and itís time to move on at the end of the year. I also would like a new GM and let him pick his own manager, but thatís a different topic.

Fenway
08-30-2011, 10:05 AM
Bad timing for Keane. The 4 decades and counting era of Yankee dominance was about to come to an abrupt end.

September of 1964 had two classic pennant races...

The Cards ended up on top thanks to Gene Mauch going with in effect a 2 man rotation in Philadelphia and the Yankees somehow held off the White Sox and Baltimore.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2011, 10:06 AM
I was a little surprised at how Ozzie came out and made clear his feelings about Kenny.

There was enough circumstantial evidence to indicate the two didn't get along this year but Ozzie pretty much let it out in the open.

Lip

peelwonder
08-30-2011, 10:07 AM
I for the most part am very critical of Ozzie. However this year Kenny deserves a D for the job that he has done. It's only a D because he re-signed Paulie.....

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 10:09 AM
What does Cowley have against KW? It seems that he never passes up an opportunity to rip him, justified or not.It's hilarious, Cowley posts pretty regularly on Soxtalk under a pseudoyn and does nothing but trash KW there, too. Cowley is a whiney bitch who routinely takes jabs at the players. He trash talked how AJ was so terrible at throwing out runners that Cowley himself could steal a base off him. Well, they tried it and AJ threw him out 10/10 times. Then he thew a fit about that. Being that the players have no respect for Cowley, I imagine KW doesn't either. Maybe Kenny told him off at some point.

But there is also the more glaring issue that Cowley is apparently BFF with Oney and Oney is his only real source within the organization. Basically, any time you get an opinion piece from Cowley it is 100% what Oney thinks.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 10:10 AM
I for the most part am very critical of Ozzie. However this year Kenny deserves a D for the job that he has done. It's only a D because he re-signed Paulie.....So, you think the team isn't talented and is performing just about to their abilities? Should he have expected Dunn to hit .090 below his career average at give 25% of his normal homer output?

asindc
08-30-2011, 10:12 AM
I for the most part am very critical of Ozzie. However this year Kenny deserves a D for the job that he has done. It's only a D because he re-signed Paulie.....

Oney, is that you?

doublem23
08-30-2011, 10:12 AM
I for the most part am very critical of Ozzie. However this year Kenny deserves a D for the job that he has done. It's only a D because he re-signed Paulie.....

What about finding Humber, who basically held the starting pitching staff together for the first 4-6 weeks of the season, or bringing back AJ whose had a major rebound season after several lackluster years, allowing Flowers to spend a few months in Charlotte and right himself from his disastrous 2010 campaign?

Unless you, too, want to tell us that you also foresaw Adam Dunn regressing into the worst player in the history of Major League baseball.

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 10:16 AM
Kenny Williams is to Joe Cowley as Reinsdorf was to Mariotti. Again, it seems it is in the fine print of the contracts of designated Suntimes shock-jock columnists that they must have a running vendetta against a White Sox executive. Altho I suspect with Cowley, his decision to choose Ozzie was more of a byproduct of being drinking buddies of his ''family sources''. As a beat writer, I also suspect that Kenny probably stiff-armed him a few times over the years, and so Cowley went for the easy source...a disgruntled former employee who can push all of Ozzies buttons.

I love how Cowley tosse out a line that Ozzie is focused on winning this season while Kenny is focused on covering his butt. What exactly does that mean? That kenny will not be blamed if they fail? Ridiculous.

This notion that Cowley cultivates that somehow Ozzie is the fall guy is also a joke.
And of course Ozzie somewhat takes the bait,as he so quickly co-mingles the kind of criticism he gets from fans in his e-mail(which he always has insists he wants) that is standard second guessing baseball fan criticism that every single manager who ever lived gets, and criticism for the overall season.

And who are they,btw? Ozzies says ''they'' can blame him? Who? Jerry?
Media? Fans?
The criticism is targeted to :
Ozzie: for his lineups,and some moves...every manager gets this.
Kenny: for his signings that have failed...every GM gets this.
Players: the big dollar guys,Rios and Dunn for failing miserably,every player gets this if they sign big deals and fail to this extent.

Cowley tries to convince Ozzie that he is being singled out...just not true.

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 10:23 AM
It's hilarious, Cowley posts pretty regularly on Soxtalk under a pseudoyn and does nothing but trash KW there, too. Cowley is a whiney bitch who routinely takes jabs at the players. He trash talked how AJ was so terrible at throwing out runners that Cowley himself could steal a base off him. Well, they tried it and AJ threw him out 10/10 times. Then he thew a fit about that. Being that the players have no respect for Cowley, I imagine KW doesn't either. Maybe Kenny told him off at some point.

But there is also the more glaring issue that Cowley is apparently BFF with Oney and Oney is his only real source within the organization. Basically, any time you get an opinion piece from Cowley it is 100% what Oney thinks.


It is hilarious that Cowley posts on a fan website anonymously ripping on Kenny. Cowley makes Mariotti look like the consumate professional,which is impossible. I wonder if Cowley even goes into the clubhouse anymore?
Mariotti cowered up in the pressbox his last few years,afraid of Hawk's shadow.
The whole Oney relationship smells like a dead rat in the clubhouse. Wonder if the players hang out with him anymore?
I am an ozzie fan,and hope he stays,but I do wish Ozzie would trade Oney to Florida once and for all.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 10:28 AM
Wonder if the players hang out with him anymore?I doubt many players have anything to do with Oney at this point, after the crap he did the past two years. There is also the quote from a reporter who said the players were enraged about his shots at Teahen's wife and "wanted to bash his face in" or something like that.

BainesHOF
08-30-2011, 10:34 AM
Williams has done his best to field the best team. Guillen has not this season.

Guillen is not the face of the franchise. He's its ass.

The Immigrant
08-30-2011, 10:39 AM
Williams has done his best to field the best team. Guillen has not this season.


No, he did not. There were roster decisions that could have been made earlier in the season and he chose not to make them, instead deferring to Guillen.

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 10:44 AM
I do think that when an Ozzie becomes ''bigger'' than the normal manager in terms of the GM-Manager relationship, it upsets the necessary balance.

In theory, Kenny is Ozzie's boss,and anyone that respects that dynamic would not let his kid do this sabotage crap behind the scene. If it has come to the point where Kenny cannot make GM moves personnel-wise because Ozzie will refuse to play the guys he calls up...not good. How do Sciosa and Francona make it work with their GM's? They are as big as Ozzie.

What did Oney say about Teahen's wife?

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 10:47 AM
I do think that when an Ozzie becomes ''bigger'' than the normal manager in terms of the GM-Manager relationship, it upsets the necessary balance.

In theory, Kenny is Ozzie's boss,and anyone that respects that dynamic would not let his kid do this sabotage crap behind the scene.

What did Oney say about Teahen's wife?Teahen tweeted that his goal is to make so much money that his son could be an ignorant, low-life moron who gets by with daddy paying the bills. He then claimed it wasn't about Oney, but it's not hard to tell it was. Oney responded by insulting Mrs. Teahen's completion, calling her ugly, saying she looked like a man and saying she wasn't "healthy." Like a true chicken****, he went after Teahen's wife instead of saying anything about him.

Noneck
08-30-2011, 11:11 AM
Part of the GM's responsibility is the the hiring and firing of the staff below him. The field manager is a staff position below him. Williams obviously is not being given the authority to fire ozwaldo and probably was not the one that even hired him. The blame on this whole situation should be hung on the one that has created this situation and has let it fester over the years.

Tragg
08-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Williams has made a ton of mistakes on talent.
He's done some good things, but more bad than good re talent in the last 3 years.
Guillen's clown-managed much of the year, and his judgment on talent is particularly poor, but he's not the reason Rios and Dunn blow. Williams isn't either, but he's the one who took their massive contracts and brought them here.

#1swisher
08-30-2011, 11:54 AM
Time to go, Guillen.

TDog
08-30-2011, 11:56 AM
Bad timing for Keane. The 4 decades and counting era of Yankee dominance was about to come to an abrupt end.

The Yankees had gone to the World Series in 14 of the previous 16 years, and in one of those "losing" seasons, they went 103-51. Under Keane, the Yankees finished below .500 for the first time in 40 years.

Jim Bouton in Ball Four, who pitched for the Yankees in the mid-1960s, wrote that the Yankees weren't a good team in 1965 because they didn't believe in Keane the way they believed in Berra, despite a harmonica incident on the bus on the way to the airport after losing a doubleheader tot he White Sox in August 1964.

kittle42
08-30-2011, 12:04 PM
One or both must go regardless of what happens the remainder of this season. I don't see how the team can arguably continue with both of them.

shingo10
08-30-2011, 12:39 PM
One thing I've noticed from Ozzie's past 2 postgame press conferences is that it sounds like it is painful for him to admit that the young kids are providing a spark for this team.

Whenever he gets asked about it he gets uncomfortable or defensive. I really don't know what his problem is but its almost like he has something against Dayan and Flowers.

Maybe he is just worn out. In any case its crappy for this article to come out when the focus should be on the games. Hopefully the team is used to it by now.

asindc
08-30-2011, 12:46 PM
One or both must go regardless of what happens the remainder of this season. I don't see how the team can arguably continue with both of them.

Regardless? Really?

kittle42
08-30-2011, 12:51 PM
Regardless? Really?

Yes. It's a dysfunctional situation and has been for quite a while. If the Sox somehow came back, won the division, and won the World Series, I'd still prefer one of them quietly resigned and moved onward.

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Cowley is on the Score right now.
Cowley says that kenny dropped his shoulder,bumped him and told him he was an effing joke at Wrigley earlier this year...after that, no real contact with Kenny.

Says that someone in the organization today texted him that even if the Sox win it all, kenny and Ozzie remaining together is not an option.

Says that no way that Kenny would go upstairs and let Hahn take over.
Cowley continues to say that Ozzie wants to stay in Chicago.
Says that a friend of a potential managerial candidate got back to Ozzie to let him know that kenny was looking at manager options.

The Thome deal was the first public breaking of trust between Ozzie and kenny.

Says that Kenny is a liar when he publically indicated that Ozzie has free reign to play anyone despite salary.

Two blowups this year: right before the Colorado trip, he alleges that Kenny wanted Juan Pierre out and Ozzie refused....cowley says that Kenny has lied about this subsequently.

Says that Ozzie has no say in personnel, so all the blame for players is on Kenny.

jdm2662
08-30-2011, 01:20 PM
Cowley is on the Score right now.
Cowley says that kenny dropped his shoulder,bumped him and told him he was an effing joke at Wrigley earlier this year...after that, no real contact with Kenny.

Says that someone in the organization today texted him that even if the Sox win it all, kenny and Ozzie remaining together is not an option.

Says that no way that Kenny would go upstairs and let Hahn take over.
Cowley continues to say that Ozzie wants to stay in Chicago.
Says that a friend of a potential managerial candidate got back to Ozzie to let him know that kenny was looking at manager options.

The Thome deal was the first public breaking of trust between Ozzie and kenny.

Says that Kenny is a liar when he publically indicated that Ozzie has free reign to play anyone despite salary.

Two blowups this year: right before the Colorado trip, he alleges that Kenny wanted Juan Pierre out and Ozzie refused....cowley says that Kenny has lied about this subsequently.

Says that Ozzie has no say in personnel, so all the blame for players is on Kenny.

Yep, doesn't sound like Cowley has a beef with Kenny at all...

shingo10
08-30-2011, 01:31 PM
That Score interview was embarrassing. Cowley would not pin any of the blame on Guillen and made it sound like Kenny was responsible for every problem. Kenny has clearly made numerous mistakes but to blindly attack him like Cowley tried to do was just ridiculous.

It really cheapens the article he wrote in my opinion. Obviously something has got to give at the end of the season but it sounds like Cowley is more interested in turning this into something personal against KW.

#1swisher
08-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Listen (http://player.radio.com/player/RadioPlayer.php?version=1.2.12366&station=391) to The Score

kittle42
08-30-2011, 01:43 PM
That Score interview was embarrassing. Cowley would not pin any of the blame on Guillen and made it sound like Kenny was responsible for every problem. Kenny has clearly made numerous mistakes but to blindly attack him like Cowley tried to do was just ridiculous.

It really cheapens the article he wrote in my opinion. Obviously something has got to give at the end of the season but it sounds like Cowley is more interested in turning this into something personal against KW.

Cowley is Cowley. He has his issues with Williams and has chosen his side.

Take everything he says with a grain of salt, but one thing just becomes more obvious - the more stuff about this becomes public (almost, to an extent, true or not), the more it mans one or both of KW and Ozzie have to go, regardless of "who is at fault."

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 02:01 PM
Cowley is on the Score right now.
Cowley says that kenny dropped his shoulder,bumped him and told him he was an effing joke at Wrigley earlier this year...after that, no real contact with Kenny.

Says that someone in the organization today texted him that even if the Sox win it all, kenny and Ozzie remaining together is not an option.

Says that no way that Kenny would go upstairs and let Hahn take over.
Cowley continues to say that Ozzie wants to stay in Chicago.
Says that a friend of a potential managerial candidate got back to Ozzie to let him know that kenny was looking at manager options.

The Thome deal was the first public breaking of trust between Ozzie and kenny.

Says that Kenny is a liar when he publically indicated that Ozzie has free reign to play anyone despite salary.

Two blowups this year: right before the Colorado trip, he alleges that Kenny wanted Juan Pierre out and Ozzie refused....cowley says that Kenny has lied about this subsequently.

Says that Ozzie has no say in personnel, so all the blame for players is on Kenny.Cowley is a lying sack of crap. At very best, anything he said is a half-truth with details changed to help Ozzie. At the very least, we know he is lying because Oney is no longer a part of the organization.

I wonder if Cowley will become the Marlins' beat reporter and move in with Oney (as Ozzie pays the bills) if Ozzie goes to Miami. Nobody respects him in the organization. The only source he has is Oney, who will no longer have any inside info. If he stayed, he would have to resort to being Marriotti and taking other reporters' quotes to use for his work.

jdm2662
08-30-2011, 02:26 PM
Cowley is a lying sack of crap. At very best, anything he said is a half-truth with details changed to help Ozzie. At the very least, we know he is lying because Oney is no longer a part of the organization.

I wonder if Cowley will become the Marlins' beat reporter and move in with Oney (as Ozzie pays the bills) if Ozzie goes to Miami. Nobody respects him in the organization. The only source he has is Oney, who will no longer have any inside info. If he stayed, he would have to resort to being Marriotti and taking other reporters' quotes to use for his work.

I love the line "someone within the organization texted him". Yeah, say who it is. And, this applies to all people that cites "sources". But, we know it's his boy Oney, who doesn't work for the organization as you already stated.

#1swisher
08-30-2011, 02:29 PM
Cowleys' timing is suspect, isn't he from Minnesota?

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 02:31 PM
Cowleys' timing is suspect, isn't he from Minnesota?

He is from Cleveland; his wife is from Minnesota...so he is clearly sabotaging the Sox as a double agent:D:

#1swisher
08-30-2011, 02:37 PM
He is from Cleveland; his wife is from Minnesota...so he is clearly sabotaging the Sox as a double agent:D:

The former, 2nd place Cleveland? *half-teal*

GoGoCrede
08-30-2011, 02:42 PM
Cowley is a lying sack of crap. At very best, anything he said is a half-truth with details changed to help Ozzie. At the very least, we know he is lying because Oney is no longer a part of the organization.

I wonder if Cowley will become the Marlins' beat reporter and move in with Oney (as Ozzie pays the bills) if Ozzie goes to Miami. Nobody respects him in the organization. The only source he has is Oney, who will no longer have any inside info. If he stayed, he would have to resort to being Marriotti and taking other reporters' quotes to use for his work.

I keep forgetting who on here said this, but they said it well: Cowley is good at promoting Cowley.

russ99
08-30-2011, 02:46 PM
Cowley being Cowley. Nothing to see here...

hawkjt
08-30-2011, 02:51 PM
I love the line "someone within the organization texted him". Yeah, say who it is. And, this applies to all people that cites "sources". But, we know it's his boy Oney, who doesn't work for the organization as you already stated.


LOL...David Schuster tweeted '' Cowley and Ozzie are incredibly close..everything Joe reports is from Ozzie''...

I like Ozzie,but as someone said, he is becoming '' Ditka with social network capabilities'' . Yikes. The parallels are there, Ditka increasingly hated the boss who gave him his shot in the first place,and as team performance languished,started blowing up more and more.

peelwonder
08-30-2011, 02:52 PM
So, you think the team isn't talented and is performing just about to their abilities? Should he have expected Dunn to hit .090 below his career average at give 25% of his normal homer output?

Is it not the General Manager's job to Evaluate talent?

I agree that Ozzie has mismanaged this team but Kenny has down a piss poor job as well....

SI1020
08-30-2011, 03:22 PM
He is from Cleveland; his wife is from Minnesota...so he is clearly sabotaging the Sox as a double agent:D: He is from Cleveland and roots for the Steelers. If you've ever spent any amount of time in those two rust belt cities you know that is tantamount to treason.

Fenway
08-30-2011, 03:43 PM
The Yankees had gone to the World Series in 14 of the previous 16 years, and in one of those "losing" seasons, they went 103-51. Under Keane, the Yankees finished below .500 for the first time in 40 years.

Jim Bouton in Ball Four, who pitched for the Yankees in the mid-1960s, wrote that the Yankees weren't a good team in 1965 because they didn't believe in Keane the way they believed in Berra, despite a harmonica incident on the bus on the way to the airport after losing a doubleheader tot he White Sox in August 1964.

It really was strange how that played out...many think the Yankees job killed him as he died of a heart attack a couple of years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Keane#1964:_Triumph_amid_turmoil

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 04:09 PM
Is it not the General Manager's job to Evaluate talent?

I agree that Ozzie has mismanaged this team but Kenny has down a piss poor job as well....You answered a question with a question. You didn't answer if you thought the Sox were an untalented team which has performed up to capability to this point in the season. That would mean Rios should have been expected to have the worst year of his career by far and Dunn should have been expected to have what is statistically the worst season of any player in the last 111 seasons.

Martinigirl
08-30-2011, 04:34 PM
If you were Ozzie, why say this now? If we don't win this week, the season is over. Things, at least right now, are going well. So why would you do this now?
If you are miserable, suck it up for a week or two. At least that is what you should do if your primary concern is the team and not yourself.

As for Cowley, he is just agenda driven. He can't stand Kenny and that is all he cares to report about.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2011, 04:44 PM
I know I heard earlier in the year that a Pirates scout (Robinson? don't remember) told some of the Chicago media that a person Kenny contacted earlier about possibly taking the managerial job let Ozzie know about it.

Lip

Goose
08-30-2011, 04:47 PM
One or both must go regardless of what happens the remainder of this season. I don't see how the team can arguably continue with both of them.

Winner.

CPditka
08-30-2011, 04:50 PM
What does Cowley have against KW? It seems that he never passes up an opportunity to rip him, justified or not.


Not sure if this has been discussed, but Cowley was on the Score this afternoon and said that "Kenny put a shoulder into him during the Cubs Series and told him that he was a joke". Since then the gloves have been off.


Sorry if that has already been mentioned.

Nellie_Fox
08-30-2011, 04:56 PM
...Ditka increasingly hated the boss who gave him his shot in the first place...Who would that have been? George Halas hired Ditka, and Halas was dead by the time Ditka left the team.

dickallen15
08-30-2011, 04:57 PM
Not sure if this has been discussed, but Cowley was on the Score this afternoon and said that "Kenny put a shoulder into him during the Cubs Series and told him that he was a joke". Since then the gloves have been off.



Sorry if that has already been mentioned.
Seems the gloves came off when Cowley became a columnist and not a beat writer and could hide.

bridgeportcopper
08-30-2011, 05:15 PM
It really was strange how that played out...many think the Yankees job killed him as he died of a heart attack a couple of years later.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Keane#1964:_Triumph_amid_turmoil


Let this one go Fens.......not everything relates to Boston or Yanks....we have serious Ozzie/Kenny issues here!

DickAllen72
08-30-2011, 05:20 PM
Cowley is on the Score right now.
Cowley says that kenny dropped his shoulder,bumped him and told him he was an effing joke at Wrigley earlier this year...after that, no real contact with Kenny..

Good for Kenny.

Says that Kenny is a liar when he publically indicated that Ozzie has free reign to play anyone despite salary..
I call BS on this one. Since KW went public with his statement, Ozzie could easily bench Rios, Dunn or anyone else and KW would have no leg to stand on unless he wanted to publicly announce that he wanted Rios/Dunn back in the lineups. Then Ozzie could make KW look like a total jackass. Cowley is so full of **** it's pathetic.

Two blowups this year: right before the Colorado trip, he alleges that Kenny wanted Juan Pierre out and Ozzie refused....cowley says that Kenny has lied about this subsequently..
So here Cowley contradicts himself. Apparently Ozzie does whatever he wants no matter what KW tells him to do. So why doesn't Ozzie have free reign to play anyone despite salary especially after KW publicly told him he could/should???

Ozzie has done a terrible job managing this team and Cowley does even a worse job as a supposed journalist.

slavko
08-30-2011, 05:32 PM
So here Cowley contradicts himself. Apparently Ozzie does whatever he wants no matter what KW tells him to do. So why doesn't Ozzie have free reign to play anyone despite salary especially after KW publicly told him he could/should???



Trying to confuse us with logic again? Ozzie plays Pierre because Kenny doesn't want him to. He plays Dunn because Kenny wants him to. There's your logic. And Jerry masterminds it all.

DickAllen72
08-30-2011, 05:40 PM
LOL...David Schuster tweeted '' Cowley and Ozzie are incredibly close..everything Joe reports is from Ozzie''...

I like Ozzie,but as someone said, he is becoming '' Ditka with social network capabilities'' . Yikes. The parallels are there, Ditka increasingly hated the boss who gave him his shot in the first place,and as team performance languished,started blowing up more and more.
Guillen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with Mike Ditka. Two totally different situations and two totally different types of people.

Ditka was hired by George Halas and Ditka loved the old man. As soon as Mike McCaskey took over the team he wanted to fire Ditka but couldn't because Ditka was such a successful head coach. McCaskey tried everything to antagonize Ditka and sabatage him at every chance he could get.

The only real ally Ditka had in the Bears front office was Jerry Vainisi and after Ditka led the Bears to their first and only Super Bowl Championship, McCaskey fired Vainisi and went without a GM for the rest of Ditka's tenure. Still Ditka's teams won the division year after year despite having their starting quarterbacks injured and went into the playoffs with second and third string quarterbacks starting each year.

McCaskey interfered with draft decisions, drafting players Ditka and his staff didn't want and started getting rid of productive veterans despite the fact that he was weakening the team.

Unlike Guillen, Ditka was a great evaluator of talent and was always willing to play and develop his young players and rookies when he thought they had more potential than the veterans at their positions.

McCaskey couldn't wait to fire Ditka and jumped at the chance after a bad season during which Ditka made a few bad public statements out of frustration whereas JR intervenes to keep Ozzie and even extended his contract after the poor season last year while Ozzie routinely makes terrible public statements..

Ditka used to shoot off his mouth when he was emotional during post game press conferences but when he cooled down he would often apologize for some of his remarks and admit on occasion that he said something "stupid." Guillen routinely goes off making stupid and outrageous statements even in relaxed settings like pregame interviews or on twitter and to my recollection never apologizes or even admits that he may have made a mistake.

And the biggest difference between Ditka and Guillen is that Ditka was a good coach who got the most of his players while Ozzie is a terrible mangaer whose players usually seem to underperform.

DirtySox
08-30-2011, 06:00 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Ozzie Guillen says he'll want a contract extension from White Sox this off-season. He's signed through 2012.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108659804825858048) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Guillen: "One thing I make clear, I don't think I'll be back here for 1 year contract, and not know about the next year."
56 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108660014004191232) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

kittle42
08-30-2011, 06:05 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Ozzie Guillen says he'll want a contract extension from White Sox this off-season. He's signed through 2012.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108659804825858048) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Guillen: "One thing I make clear, I don't think I'll be back here for 1 year contract, and not know about the next year."
56 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108660014004191232) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

YES! Start paving the way for that "mutually agreed-upon" exit. NOW, I'm excited for 2012 Sox baseball!

PalehosePlanet
08-30-2011, 06:06 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Ozzie Guillen says he'll want a contract extension from White Sox this off-season. He's signed through 2012.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108659804825858048) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Guillen: "One thing I make clear, I don't think I'll be back here for 1 year contract, and not know about the next year."
56 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108660014004191232) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

So does that mean he'll quit? That would be perfect, The Sox wouldn't be on the hook for 2012.

DirtySox
08-30-2011, 06:11 PM
So does that mean he'll quit? That would be perfect, The Sox wouldn't be on the hook for 2012.

I'm still crossing my fingers for some sort of compensation via the Marlins.

SI1020
08-30-2011, 06:31 PM
Guillen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with Mike Ditka. Two totally different situations and two totally different types of people.

Ditka was hired by George Halas and Ditka loved the old man. As soon as Mike McCaskey took over the team he wanted to fire Ditka but couldn't because Ditka was such a successful head coach. McCaskey tried everything to antagonize Ditka and sabatage him at every chance he could get.

The only real ally Ditka had in the Bears front office was Jerry Vainisi and after Ditka led the Bears to their first and only Super Bowl Championship, McCaskey fired Vainisi and went without a GM for the rest of Ditka's tenure. Still Ditka's teams won the division year after year despite having their starting quarterbacks injured and went into the playoffs with second and third string quarterbacks starting each year.

McCaskey interfered with draft decisions, drafting players Ditka and his staff didn't want and started getting rid of productive veterans despite the fact that he was weakening the team.

Unlike Guillen, Ditka was a great evaluator of talent and was always willing to play and develop his young players and rookies when he thought they had more potential than the veterans at their positions.

McCaskey couldn't wait to fire Ditka and jumped at the chance after a bad season during which Ditka made a few bad public statements out of frustration whereas JR intervenes to keep Ozzie and even extended his contract after the poor season last year while Ozzie routinely makes terrible public statements..

Ditka used to shoot off his mouth when he was emotional during post game press conferences but when he cooled down he would often apologize for some of his remarks and admit on occasion that he said something "stupid." Guillen routinely goes off making stupid and outrageous statements even in relaxed settings like pregame interviews or on twitter and to my recollection never apologizes or even admits that he may have made a mistake.

And the biggest difference between Ditka and Guillen is that Ditka was a good coach who got the most of his players while Ozzie is a terrible mangaer whose players usually seem to underperform. Thank you for that post. The comparisons were for the most part ridiculous.

peelwonder
08-30-2011, 07:36 PM
You answered a question with a question. You didn't answer if you thought the Sox were an untalented team which has performed up to capability to this point in the season. That would mean Rios should have been expected to have the worst year of his career by far and Dunn should have been expected to have what is statistically the worst season of any player in the last 111 seasons.


It was a sarcastic question...however to think Dunn would be this atrocious seemed a bit of a stretch.....

Noneck
08-30-2011, 07:43 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Ozzie Guillen says he'll want a contract extension from White Sox this off-season. He's signed through 2012.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108659804825858048) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Guillen: "One thing I make clear, I don't think I'll be back here for 1 year contract, and not know about the next year."
56 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108660014004191232) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


This kind of stuff should not be talked about by ozwaldo at this stage of the season and particularly with some very important games on tap.

TheOldRoman
08-30-2011, 07:47 PM
It was a sarcastic question...however to think Dunn would be this atrocious seemed a bit of a stretch.....Right. Dunn has been unimaginably horrible, especially for someone who had so consistently hit 38 homers and driven in 100 runs every year. Nobody expected Rios to be this terrible, either. Those are two very talented players who are having their career worst seasons by wide measures. Is that Kenny's fault? He took a team that won 88 games last year, improved the bullpen and the rotation, and added the huge lefty power bat that replaced the glaring hole at DH last year. And for whatever reason, the team has performed worse. So either Kenny should have been able to foresee that Dunn would hit .161 and Rios .220 or he put together a very talented team which was torpedoed by those two players and piss poor managing. KW has made his fair share of questionable moves, but there aren't glaring flaws on this team. 2011 isn't his fault.

soltrain21
08-30-2011, 07:49 PM
This kind of stuff should not be talked about by ozwaldo at this stage of the season and particularly with some very important games on tap.

Any normal person would answer that question with straight coach speak about how, "We will worry about that in the offseason. We have to focus on right now and the game tonight with the Twins."

Not Ozzie, though. That would be too smart.

CWSpalehoseCWS
08-30-2011, 07:53 PM
I for the most part am very critical of Ozzie. However this year Kenny deserves a D for the job that he has done. It's only a D because he re-signed Paulie.....

I though JR was the main man behind the wheel on the PK deal?

A. Cavatica
08-30-2011, 08:18 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1411011479/DSCN1905_normal.JPG
ChuckGarfien (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien) Chuck Garfien
Ozzie Guillen says he'll want a contract extension from White Sox this off-season. He's signed through 2012.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/ChuckGarfien/status/108659804825858048) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


Give him that extension, Jerry! Don't let the "Latin Bevington" get away!

Brian26
08-30-2011, 08:24 PM
Cowley is on the Score right now.
Cowley says that kenny dropped his shoulder,bumped him and told him he was an effing joke at Wrigley earlier this year....

Shame on Kenny... for not getting the job done.

Brian26
08-30-2011, 08:38 PM
It's hilarious, Cowley posts pretty regularly on Soxtalk under a pseudoyn and does nothing but trash KW there, too.

:rolling: What a clown.

DSpivack
08-30-2011, 09:34 PM
Guillen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with Mike Ditka. Two totally different situations and two totally different types of people.

Ditka was hired by George Halas and Ditka loved the old man. As soon as Mike McCaskey took over the team he wanted to fire Ditka but couldn't because Ditka was such a successful head coach. McCaskey tried everything to antagonize Ditka and sabatage him at every chance he could get.

The only real ally Ditka had in the Bears front office was Jerry Vainisi and after Ditka led the Bears to their first and only Super Bowl Championship, McCaskey fired Vainisi and went without a GM for the rest of Ditka's tenure. Still Ditka's teams won the division year after year despite having their starting quarterbacks injured and went into the playoffs with second and third string quarterbacks starting each year.

McCaskey interfered with draft decisions, drafting players Ditka and his staff didn't want and started getting rid of productive veterans despite the fact that he was weakening the team.

Unlike Guillen, Ditka was a great evaluator of talent and was always willing to play and develop his young players and rookies when he thought they had more potential than the veterans at their positions.

McCaskey couldn't wait to fire Ditka and jumped at the chance after a bad season during which Ditka made a few bad public statements out of frustration whereas JR intervenes to keep Ozzie and even extended his contract after the poor season last year while Ozzie routinely makes terrible public statements..

Ditka used to shoot off his mouth when he was emotional during post game press conferences but when he cooled down he would often apologize for some of his remarks and admit on occasion that he said something "stupid." Guillen routinely goes off making stupid and outrageous statements even in relaxed settings like pregame interviews or on twitter and to my recollection never apologizes or even admits that he may have made a mistake.

And the biggest difference between Ditka and Guillen is that Ditka was a good coach who got the most of his players while Ozzie is a terrible mangaer whose players usually seem to underperform.

:hijacked:

Being too young to remember the Ditka years (though being a Bears fan was strongly ingrained in to me, as my dad was a season ticket holder from about 1975 to around 1990), I often just assumed that because he won just one title despite having what was one of the few greatest NFL teams ever that he was way overrated. An assumption without any evidence, to be sure.

Good to know the goings on behind the scenes. Sadly, my memories of growing up a Bears fan starts with era of Dave "All the pieces are in place" Wannstedt.

sox230
08-30-2011, 10:01 PM
"Guillenís focus remains on winning games. Williamsí seems to be on saving his own butt."

Honestly, Joe Cowley has his own ****ing agenda and I wish he would just go away. He's the "tough guy" that's a Steelers fan from Cleveland. That's a traitor if I ever heard of one. Yeah Joe, Ozzie never talks about himself and he's ALL about the team. He is the most unselfish manager who does not want to be in the limelight according to Cowley.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2011, 10:07 PM
Guillen shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath with Mike Ditka. Two totally different situations and two totally different types of people.

Ditka was hired by George Halas and Ditka loved the old man. As soon as Mike McCaskey took over the team he wanted to fire Ditka but couldn't because Ditka was such a successful head coach. McCaskey tried everything to antagonize Ditka and sabatage him at every chance he could get.

The only real ally Ditka had in the Bears front office was Jerry Vainisi and after Ditka led the Bears to their first and only Super Bowl Championship, McCaskey fired Vainisi and went without a GM for the rest of Ditka's tenure. Still Ditka's teams won the division year after year despite having their starting quarterbacks injured and went into the playoffs with second and third string quarterbacks starting each year.

McCaskey interfered with draft decisions, drafting players Ditka and his staff didn't want and started getting rid of productive veterans despite the fact that he was weakening the team.

Unlike Guillen, Ditka was a great evaluator of talent and was always willing to play and develop his young players and rookies when he thought they had more potential than the veterans at their positions.

McCaskey couldn't wait to fire Ditka and jumped at the chance after a bad season during which Ditka made a few bad public statements out of frustration whereas JR intervenes to keep Ozzie and even extended his contract after the poor season last year while Ozzie routinely makes terrible public statements..

Ditka used to shoot off his mouth when he was emotional during post game press conferences but when he cooled down he would often apologize for some of his remarks and admit on occasion that he said something "stupid." Guillen routinely goes off making stupid and outrageous statements even in relaxed settings like pregame interviews or on twitter and to my recollection never apologizes or even admits that he may have made a mistake.

And the biggest difference between Ditka and Guillen is that Ditka was a good coach who got the most of his players while Ozzie is a terrible mangaer whose players usually seem to underperform.

That's admittedly a pro-Ditka post, but I can't see any holes in your argument. I do think Ditka had lost much of the team by 1992 and that changes were necessary, but there's no telling what might have happened if the Bears retained a decent GM who had drafted good players. They had some real draft busts starting with Stan Thomas in 1990.

Back on topic, I think it is clear that the Sox need some changes. They have changed out the players several times over; only Buehrle, AJ and Paulie remain from the 2005 team. The choices are to change the coaching staff, or change the front office. Based on his comments and the distractions he and his son bring, I think replacing Ozzie (and Walker and Cora) is the obvious choice. Cooper needs to stay. I have no qualms with Baines and Cox, but the new manager should be permitted to bring in his own guys.

34 Inch Stick
08-31-2011, 12:36 PM
That's admittedly a pro-Ditka post, but I can't see any holes in your argument. I do think Ditka had lost much of the team by 1992 and that changes were necessary, but there's no telling what might have happened if the Bears retained a decent GM who had drafted good players. They had some real draft busts starting with Stan Thomas in 1990.

.

It is a good post but fails to address the damage Ditka did to the relationship with his players during the strike.

I loved Ditka but it was time for him to go. I think he even realized it.

wassagstdu
08-31-2011, 01:25 PM
Williams has done his best to field the best team. Guillen has not this season.

This doesn't make sense, but I have no doubt that KW did his best. The problem is that his best is not very good.

Williams says everyone is underperforming, the players, the coaches, the manager, and him. That is a total crock. If the players, coaches, and manager are underperforming, then where is the general manager's failure? Which is pretty much what BainesHOP is saying, I think.

I think that the players are underperforming somewhat, but not nearly as much as the general manager and much of WSI think. Both made flawed predictions of performance based on naive projections. More to blame for the fiasco, I think that the general manager put together a fundamentally flawed team. (And actually, several players are overperforming -- performing better than should have been expected (TCM (ok, thats my bias), Pierre, Humber, Santos, even Konerko).

To take the worst example, is Dunn actually underperforming? Looking at his performance in the second half last year, as others have pointed out here, the fall off is not so dramatic -- or at least no more dramatic than the falloff from first to second half last year. Was Manny Ramirez underperforming because his career stats were so much better than his performance with the Sox? Such a falloff is not underperforming, it is overestimation, and failure to take account of inevitable (sooner for juicers) career deterioration. And the estimation that makes or breaks the team is that of the GM.

Tragg
08-31-2011, 01:42 PM
Right. Dunn has been unimaginably horrible, especially for someone who had so consistently hit 38 homers and driven in 100 runs every year. Nobody expected Rios to be this terrible, either. Those are two very talented players who are having their career worst seasons by wide measures. Is that Kenny's fault? He took a team that won 88 games last year, improved the bullpen and the rotation, and added the huge lefty power bat that replaced the glaring hole at DH last year.
Even if those signings were well-intended and smart on paper (both Rios and Dunn had visible flaws, and visible upside, but huge contracts) you couple those RESULTS with Peavy, Swisher 1, Swisher 2, Tony Pena, Teahen, Jackson/Hudson (most of which trades were bad on PAPER and in result), yes, he is at least as much to blame as Guillen imo. Payroll generosity gave him the opportunity to overcome his poor trades with signings, but that didn't even turn out right.

TheOldRoman
08-31-2011, 01:56 PM
Even if those signings were well-intended and smart on paper (both Rios and Dunn had visible flaws, and visible upside, but huge contracts) you couple those RESULTS with Peavy, Swisher 1, Swisher 2, Tony Pena, Teahen, Jackson/Hudson (most of which trades were bad on PAPER and in result), yes, he is at least as much to blame as Guillen imo. Payroll generosity gave him the opportunity to overcome his poor trades with signings, but that didn't even turn out right.No, no and no. The other trades are debatable about just how bad they were, but these trades weren't bad. The Sox gave up a 5th starter in Richard for Peavy. That is a trade that any team with the payroll room makes 10 times out of 10, even with second-guessing that him having a broken ankle at the time of the trade meant his arm would fall off. Pena was acquired for a slow 1B who doesn't hit for power. Teahen was acquired for a failed prospect in Fields and a backup 2B in Getz, not a bad deal, either. Signing him to an extention was a gamble that failed miserably, but the trade itself wasn't bad.

Tragg
08-31-2011, 02:18 PM
No, no and no. The other trades are debatable about just how bad they were, but these trades weren't bad. The Sox gave up a 5th starter in Richard for Peavy. That is a trade that any team with the payroll room makes 10 times out of 10, even with second-guessing that him having a broken ankle at the time of the trade meant his arm would fall off. Pena was acquired for a slow 1B who doesn't hit for power. Teahen was acquired for a failed prospect in Fields and a backup 2B in Getz, not a bad deal, either. Signing him to an extention was a gamble that failed miserably, but the trade itself wasn't bad.
I agree that Peavy trade was the best conceived of the bunch.
Brandon Allen he has 6 homers in 92 at bats this year. He was one of our top prospects And Pena had a high ERA and miserable WHIP when we acquired him. You can get a pitcher like that for C+ prospects, much less one of your best prospects (counterfeit he may be).
As for Dunn - had KW stuck to his guns with Thome, in defiance of Guillen, we probably wouldn't have signed Dunn.
I think both Williams and Guillen are above the ML median in their job performance. (This year Guillen has been particularly immature). But they are not that together (which means one has to go).
Maybe if KW can find a manager with similar philosophies, KW's moves will improve too. (although that drafting has got to get better).

#1swisher
09-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Wilbur and Kornheiser debate who should stay, OG or KW.

ESPN Video (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/7328/pti-should-sox-keep-ozzie-or-kenny)

hawkjt
09-02-2011, 12:22 PM
Cowley vs Spiegel on the Score right now....classic stuff.

Joe's feelings are hurt. He is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him in the back.
Accuses Speigs of not ''being a man'' like himself.
He is going scorched earth on Kenny and Spiegs.
Now he is going after Barry Rosner and Steve Stone. Says Stoney was using Rosner to blow up Hendry.
Cowley is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him for good ratings.
Telling Spiegs to get off his ass and go into the clubhouse and check Joes facts.

Speigs is giving as good as he gets.
Says Joe is calling from minnesota,so do not call Spiegs on not being in the clubhouse.
Joe accusing Kenny of lying again.
Speigs calls him on a flat lie he wrote about the Mike Sirotka trade...Cowley says he had a bad source...lol.
Cowley is a classic bully...he can fire on folks,but cannot take a hit.
He is whining like a little child.
Says other beat writers are too cowardly to write what is true.

Speigs says that it is transparent that he is Ozzie's mouthpiece and asks him what he will do when Ozzie leaves.

Cowley calls Speigs the Jay Mariotti of radio...the irony.
Cowley says that Kenny wants JR to choose him over Ozzie, because Kenny has father issues after his dad died....what the heck?

Cowley says that kenny should have told Dunn he was hurt back in June and brought up Viciedo for good. what?

Cowley says he digs up the dirt and then takes it to Ozzie and asks him to comment on it. He says he cannot go to Kenny and do that.
Says he could blow Kenny up if he wanted to,but he is too professional to do that,as he comments on how ''hollywood'' Kenny is,drops a Toni Braxton reference,and implies that kenny is a horrible person,but he will not blow him up?.....LOL.

Interesting exchange.

chisoxjtrain
09-02-2011, 12:23 PM
Cowley vs Spiegel on the Score right now....classic stuff.

Joe's feelings are hurt. He is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him in the back.
Accuses Speigs of not ''being a man'' like himself.
He is going scorched earth on Kenny and Spiegs.
Now he is going after Barry Rosner and Steve Stone.
Cowley is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him for good ratings.
Telling Spiegs to get off his ass and go into the clubhouse and check Joes facts.

Speigs is giving as good as he gets.
Says Joe is calling from minnesota,so do not call Spiegs on not being in the clubhouse.
Accusing Kenny of lying again.

Cowley is a classic bully...he can fire on folks,but cannot take a hit.
He is whining like a little child.
Says other beat writers are too cowardly to write what is true.

Speigs says that it is transparent that he is Ozzie's mouthpiece and asks him what he will do when Ozzie leaves.

Cowley calls Speigs the Jay Mariotti of radio...the irony.
Cowley says that Kenny wants JR to choose him over Ozzie, because Kenny has father issues after his dad died....***?

Cowley says that kenny should have told Dunn he was hurt back in June and brought up Viciedo for good. ***?

Cowley says he digs up the dirt and then takes it to Ozzie and asks him to comment on it. He says he cannot go to Kenny and do that.
Says he could blow Kenny up if he wanted to,but he is too professional to do that,as he comments on how ''hollywood'' Kenny is,drops a Toni Braxton reference,and implies that kenny is a horrible person,but he will not blow him up?.....LOL.

Interesting exchange.

Yeah, I'm listening to this now. Cowley comes off as a huge douche bag.

asindc
09-02-2011, 12:33 PM
Cowley vs Spiegel on the Score right now....classic stuff.

Joe's feelings are hurt. He is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him in the back.
Accuses Speigs of not ''being a man'' like himself.
He is going scorched earth on Kenny and Spiegs.
Now he is going after Barry Rosner and Steve Stone. Says Stoney was using Rosner to blow up Hendry.
Cowley is accusing Spiegs of stabbing him for good ratings.
Telling Spiegs to get off his ass and go into the clubhouse and check Joes facts.

Speigs is giving as good as he gets.
Says Joe is calling from minnesota,so do not call Spiegs on not being in the clubhouse.
Joe accusing Kenny of lying again.
Speigs calls him on a flat lie he wrote about the Mike Sirotka trade...Cowley says he had a bad source...lol.
Cowley is a classic bully...he can fire on folks,but cannot take a hit.
He is whining like a little child.
Says other beat writers are too cowardly to write what is true.

Speigs says that it is transparent that he is Ozzie's mouthpiece and asks him what he will do when Ozzie leaves.

Cowley calls Speigs the Jay Mariotti of radio...the irony.
Cowley says that Kenny wants JR to choose him over Ozzie, because Kenny has father issues after his dad died....what the heck?

Cowley says that kenny should have told Dunn he was hurt back in June and brought up Viciedo for good. what?

Cowley says he digs up the dirt and then takes it to Ozzie and asks him to comment on it. He says he cannot go to Kenny and do that.
Says he could blow Kenny up if he wanted to,but he is too professional to do that,as he comments on how ''hollywood'' Kenny is,drops a Toni Braxton reference,and implies that kenny is a horrible person,but he will not blow him up?.....LOL.

Interesting exchange.

That's a classless thing to say.

hawkjt
09-02-2011, 12:34 PM
Cowley missed school on the day they taught class.

roylestillman
09-02-2011, 12:43 PM
The whole thing sounded like a fight in a high school lunchroom. Cowley's "be a man" routine is pathetic. As is his bit about being in front of the story. Pretty easy to do if you create it.

doublem23
09-02-2011, 12:46 PM
The whole thing sounded like a fight in a high school lunchroom. Cowley's "be a man" routine is pathetic. As is his bit about being in front of the story. Pretty easy to do if you create it.

Cowley is basically Mariotti 2.0

TheOldRoman
09-02-2011, 12:50 PM
Yeah, I'm listening to this now. Cowley comes off as a huge douche bag.That sentence could be applied to any time one heard a Cowley interview or read one of his droppings.

As we all know, Oney is Ozzie's mouthpiece and Cowley is Oney's cabana boy doing his bidding. The fact that Ozzie had escalated it to this point shows two things 1) He believes he will be shipped out after this year and is upset about it; and 2) He is stupider than anyone previously imagined, scorching the earth instead of trying to make good will and keep his job.

soltrain21
09-02-2011, 12:51 PM
What a fun year of Chicago baseball.

doublem23
09-02-2011, 01:03 PM
What a fun year of Chicago baseball.

Thank god for it, too, since ABC and CBS cancelled all their daytime soap operas, where else can one find so much non-stop, superfluous drama?

Goose
09-02-2011, 01:04 PM
Cowley vs Spiegel on the Score right now....classic stuff.

Any of this on the tubes? I would love to hear that!

chisoxjtrain
09-02-2011, 01:08 PM
Any of this on the tubes? I would love to hear that!

I'm sure it'll be podcasted on The Score's website.

eriqjaffe
09-02-2011, 01:34 PM
Cowley is basically Mariotti 2.0In Cowley's dreams.

Domeshot17
09-02-2011, 01:38 PM
Good lord. Remember when Konerko and Thornton came out and said the Sox need to quit with the drama and focus on baseball. I wonder how many times Konerko has second guessed coming back here. He will probably never compete for another world title, he clearly has a MAJOR issue with the management from Kenny to Ozzie, atleast he has the fans I guess.

doublem23
09-02-2011, 01:44 PM
In Cowley's dreams.

Well the copy is always worse quality than the original

TheOldRoman
09-02-2011, 01:49 PM
Good lord. Remember when Konerko and Thornton came out and said the Sox need to quit with the drama and focus on baseball. I wonder how many times Konerko has second guessed coming back here. He will probably never compete for another world title, he clearly has a MAJOR issue with the management from Kenny to Ozzie, atleast he has the fans I guess.Yeah, a team which has grossly underacheived and received historically bad performances from two key contributors, yet is 2 games over .500 looks like they won't be in contention any time soon. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
09-02-2011, 02:03 PM
Roman:

A lot though will depend on what JR decides this off season and what direction the franchise heads after said decisions.

It's possible (I think unlikely but possible) the Sox go into a rebuilding mode, if so, that makes Dome's comment probably correct.

Lip

kittle42
09-02-2011, 02:05 PM
Yeah, a team which has grossly underacheived and received historically bad performances from two key contributors, yet is 2 games over .500 looks like they won't be in contention any time soon. :rolleyes:

Actually, they don't.

Domeshot17
09-02-2011, 02:09 PM
Roman:

A lot though will depend on what JR decides this off season and what direction the franchise heads after said decisions.

It's possible (I think unlikely but possible) the Sox go into a rebuilding mode, if so, that makes Dome's comment probably correct.

Lip

That was my line of thought, We are facing real possibilities of rebuilding, losing key members of our rotation (Buehrle this year, Danks next), The Lineup is going to need an overhaul (what happens with Quentin, does Deaza take over for Pierre, Dayan? Morel has been terrible, Beckham has been nearly as bad, Flowers looks ready to take over for AJ but Ozzie would never let that happen etc.)

You can't possibly look at the future of this team over the life of Konerko's deal and think they have a real shot to compete for a Title. Maybe a playoff spot, but do we really think we are just a shade away from competing with Boston, New York, Tampa, The Angels and Rangers, Philly, Atlanta ETC ? We are 2 games over .500 in a pathetically jokingly bad division, that is why we aren't out of it. Konerko may have another 3 and out in in the ALDS in his future, but right now, I don't see a world title.

SOXPHILE
09-02-2011, 02:10 PM
That Cowley-Spiegel slap fest was really just a bunch of hot air. I liked it, but it was not as good as the Murph-Mulligan tizzy back in '06. I LOVE uncomfortable radio.

VMSNS
09-02-2011, 02:20 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/09/olney-on-gonzalez-darvish-white-sox.html

Buster Olney reporting that he doesn't expect Jerry to retain both Kenny and Ozzie after this season. Also says that's it's a possibility that he may just ditch both of them and go with a Hahn/LaRussa combo.

DirtySox
09-02-2011, 02:28 PM
Any of this on the tubes? I would love to hear that!

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2F redirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2F d0%2Fd0%2FdY%2FdL%2Fd7%2FdZ%2FYL7Z_4.MP3%3Fauthtok %3D5561551864421954134_7LvnKO8ggsixL3pVAn1aNAhhQCY&podcast_name=Joe+Cowley+on+The+McNeil+and+Spiegel+ Show+-+9%2F2%2F11&podcast_artist=McNeil+and+Spiegel&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI

TheOldRoman
09-02-2011, 02:39 PM
That was my line of thought, We are facing real possibilities of rebuilding, losing key members of our rotation (Buehrle this year, Danks next), The Lineup is going to need an overhaul (what happens with Quentin, does Deaza take over for Pierre, Dayan? Morel has been terrible, Beckham has been nearly as bad, Flowers looks ready to take over for AJ but Ozzie would never let that happen etc.)

You can't possibly look at the future of this team over the life of Konerko's deal and think they have a real shot to compete for a Title. Maybe a playoff spot, but do we really think we are just a shade away from competing with Boston, New York, Tampa, The Angels and Rangers, Philly, Atlanta ETC ? We are 2 games over .500 in a pathetically jokingly bad division, that is why we aren't out of it. Konerko may have another 3 and out in in the ALDS in his future, but right now, I don't see a world title.The Sox have an excellent pitching staff. They can compete with any team. I'm not arguing they are one of the elite teams, but if they were to make the playoffs, they would have as much a chance as anyone in the AL of advancing. Besides, for the future you didn't say "uncertainty", you said he will "probably never" compete again. We heard the same BS in 2007, and found ourselves in the playoffs the next season (and I know you will say that we backed in, the team had no talent and no shot, revisionist bull, revisionist bull). Still, lots of moves happen in the offeason. The biggest change at this point would be a change in manager/hitting coach, and it looks like there is a pretty good chance of that happening. Aside from that, other moves will be made, which are impossible to predict at this point. But with the Sox going "all in" in 2011, they have loads of payroll tied up for 2012, which means they will be "all in" next year, also. There is no way the team can go the firesale route at this point, so whoever is the GM in November will look to improve the team by trading Quentin for prospects or other help, using his money somewhere else, trading Danks for a monster haul if he won't sign an extension, possibly moving Thornton, filling any holes and yes, counting on Adam Dunn and Alex Rios to rebound to numbers close to their career averages. So saying the Sox will probably never compete in the next three years without knowing what moves will be made is just slightly less asinine than Hangar stomping his feet and saying "I hope you enjoy another 88 years without a championship." Besides, if the Sox go into rebuilding mode, Konerko would be traded, anyway.

Goose
09-02-2011, 02:41 PM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2F redirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2F d0%2Fd0%2FdY%2FdL%2Fd7%2FdZ%2FYL7Z_4.MP3%3Fauthtok %3D5561551864421954134_7LvnKO8ggsixL3pVAn1aNAhhQCY&podcast_name=Joe+Cowley+on+The+McNeil+and+Spiegel+ Show+-+9%2F2%2F11&podcast_artist=McNeil+and+Spiegel&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI

Thanks!

Vernam
09-02-2011, 03:23 PM
Gee, I had no idea that Kenny hangs out with Toni Braxton. Wow, that puts the whole season in a new light.

Re: Cowley-Moronotti comparisons, they're not off-base. But you could make a case that Tailgunner Joe is even worse because he's a willing tool of one of his sources. At least the Moron was an independent-thinking *******. Cowley's desperate reaction to the allegation that he is a stooge for Ozzie says it all. And as long as we're talking about journalistic ethics and the lack thereof, the way he cites an unnamed source with the team is laughable. The source is obviously Ozzie, which just makes them both look ridiculous and unethical.

The one thing I'll say in Cowley's defense (too strong a word, actually) is that people who claim he's making a story out of nothing are off base. He clearly writes these things with the cooperation of Ozzie, who never once has contradicted what Cowley wrote about him and Kenny. Ozzie could have put an end to it long ago by a.) shutting the **** up and/or b.) refuting the sentiments that Cowley attributes to him. Cowley isn't making this **** up -- it's straight from the mouth of Ozzie, who doesn't have the balls to say any of it on the record. Cowley's a prick, but at least he's taking heat that should be directed at least as much at Ozzie. None of the reporters, including Cowley, has the balls to ask Ozzie the tough questions. Instead, they rub their chins and speak obliquely about "curious decisions" like the one in the 9th inning on Wednesday. Stone on B&B just referred to the pinch hit decision as "inexplicable," which is a start.

Vernam

TheOldRoman
09-02-2011, 03:37 PM
The one thing I'll say in Cowley's defense (too strong a word, actually) is that people who claim he's making a story out of nothing are off base.Cowley had been caught in lies before. Just this Sunday, he said that 1) Ozzie has no say at all over personnel decisions, yet KW pretended he did to put the heat on him; followed by 2) KW was furious at Ozzie and they nearly came to blows because Ozzie wouldn't let him cut Pierre to bring up Dayan. Those statements directly contradict eachother. Joe then beat his chest about "You people are idiots because you think KW was going to bring up Viciedo to replace Dunn. He was going to replace Pierre." Well, no ****. That was at a time when Pierre was hitting in the low .200s and playing poor defense. Furthermore, rational people understood that Pierre is in a contract year while Dunn is under contract for 3.5 more, and cutting him would mean flushing $49 million down the drain. Basically, Joe says whatever Ozzie and Oney tell him to, but Ozzie is in complete cover your ass mode (to borrow a term from Cowleyotti) and making up contradictory things to turn people against KW.

Brian26
09-03-2011, 12:32 AM
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/?podcast_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.podtrac.com%2Fpts%2F redirect.mp3%2Fnyc.podcast.play.it%2Fmedia%2Fd0%2F d0%2Fd0%2FdY%2FdL%2Fd7%2FdZ%2FYL7Z_4.MP3%3Fauthtok %3D5561551864421954134_7LvnKO8ggsixL3pVAn1aNAhhQCY&podcast_name=Joe+Cowley+on+The+McNeil+and+Spiegel+ Show+-+9%2F2%2F11&podcast_artist=McNeil+and+Spiegel&station_id=391&tag=pages&dcid=CBS.CHI

My ears are bleeding. I made it through about eight minutes of that before I had to completely shut it off. What a whinefest. Embarrassing.

Viva Medias B's
09-03-2011, 01:01 AM
I posted this here even thought it could be its own thread, but Daryl Von Schouwen posted a postgame story about a rift between KW and Greg Walker. At one point, Williams told Walker to clean out his locker before Jerry Reinsdorf intervened and smoothed things over.

Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7433947-417/rift-between-white-sox-ken-williams-hitting-coach-greg-walker.html)

VMSNS
09-03-2011, 01:17 AM
I posted this here even thought it could be its own thread, but Daryl Von Schouwen posted a postgame story about a rift between KW and Greg Walker. At one point, Williams told Walker to clean out his locker before Jerry Reinsdorf intervened and smoothed things over.

Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7433947-417/rift-between-white-sox-ken-williams-hitting-coach-greg-walker.html)

My goodness, I can't believe Jerry puts up with this ridiculous drama between his GM, manager, and now coaches. Considering how often Jerry has to be the mediator between squabbling personnel, I bet the guy is just fed up with it. It wouldn't surprise me if he just told KW, Ozzie, and Walker to take a hike next season.

As far as the interview with Cowley goes...man, you can really tell Cowley was reeling there. Just listening to his angry responses and threatening tone makes it seem like Spiegel really touched a nerve. Props to Spiegel for calling Cowley out on his bull****. Cowley playing the role of the martyr and insisting that "I'm the only one who tells the truth and all the other writers won't do that because they need Kenny for quotes!" is borderline tin-foil hat conspiracy stuff. Spiegel is pretty much the least offensive, most down-to-earth and non-dramatic guy on WSCR, so Cowley getting all angry and calling him "Mariotti 2.0" is absolutely hilarious. Also, Cowley's claiming that he can "blow up Kenny whenever I want!" and comments about Kenny being "Hollywood" and not having a father were totally uncalled for, and incredibly unprofessional.

Cowley is a piece of trash who's writing isn't worth the paper it's written on.

BainesHOF
09-03-2011, 01:46 AM
After today's appearance on the Score, I wouldn't want Cowley writing for my newspaper. I've never heard a sports writer so embarrass himself. So typical, too. A guy who dishes it out can't take it at all. The "be a man" stuff directed at Spiegel out of the gate was out of desperation. Spiegel is a smart, fair person, which, unfortunately, is rare for a media member in this town. What Cowley tried to do to Spiegel was cheap in much the same way he's been going after Williams for years now. Williams can be criticized for some things, but for "going Hollywood" is laughable. Toni Braxton? ***, Cowley?! The dad comment, too, showed no class whatsoever and, I suspect, like so many of his other comments about Williams, isn't true.

It's like Cowley is addicted to a drug and that drug is Guillen. I'm not sure why any journalist would tie his career to a guy like Guillen, who has become an embarrassment himself on and off the field. All anyone needs to know where Cowley is weirdly coming from is that he said that Williams is "90 percent" responsible for the problems between him and Guillen. I don't know how even Cowley's family could take that comment seriously.

Cowley used to be a pot-stirrer like Marriotti, but, as someone else has already written in this thread, Cowley has turned into someone much worse. He's spiraled out of control and has seriously lost his way as a journalist. His credibility is shot. It was disturbing to hear him today.

Kudos to Spiegel for exposing Cowley.

WhiteSox5187
09-03-2011, 02:07 AM
I posted this here even thought it could be its own thread, but Daryl Von Schouwen posted a postgame story about a rift between KW and Greg Walker. At one point, Williams told Walker to clean out his locker before Jerry Reinsdorf intervened and smoothed things over.

Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7433947-417/rift-between-white-sox-ken-williams-hitting-coach-greg-walker.html)

This organization is a mess. I KNOW there is no manager in baseball who would do and say the stuff Ozzie has said but I also can't imagine there being another GM who would the stuff Kenny has done either.

tacosalbarojas
09-03-2011, 08:38 AM
There was a story several years ago about Kenny's dad filing a racial discrimination suit with the San Jose fire dept after being passed over for a promotion. I believe it ran around the time of Obama's election, and was part of a piece talking about how Kenny hoped to "make Obama proud". Anyway, I didn't hear the part of the interview where Joe was talking about KW not having a dad, so not sure what all he meant there, but it seemed from that article that Kenny's dad was definitely present and accounted for.

Edit: never mind I see now he's talking about after his dad died.

hawkjt
09-03-2011, 09:46 AM
After today's appearance on the Score, I wouldn't want Cowley writing for my newspaper. I've never heard a sports writer so embarrass himself. So typical, too. A guy who dishes it out can't take it at all. The "be a man" stuff directed at Spiegel out of the gate was out of desperation. Spiegel is a smart, fair person, which, unfortunately, is rare for a media member in this town. What Cowley tried to do to Spiegel was cheap in much the same way he's been going after Williams for years now. Williams can be criticized for some things, but for "going Hollywood" is laughable. Toni Braxton? ***, Cowley?! The dad comment, too, showed no class whatsoever and, I suspect, like so many of his other comments about Williams, isn't true.

It's like Cowley is addicted to a drug and that drug is Guillen. I'm not sure why any journalist would tie his career to a guy like Guillen, who has become an embarrassment himself on and off the field. All anyone needs to know where Cowley is weirdly coming from is that he said that Williams is "90 percent" responsible for the problems between him and Guillen. I don't know how even Cowley's family could take that comment seriously.

Cowley used to be a pot-stirrer like Marriotti, but, as someone else has already written in this thread, Cowley has turned into someone much worse. He's spiraled out of control and has seriously lost his way as a journalist. His credibility is shot. It was disturbing to hear him today.

Kudos to Spiegel for exposing Cowley.


I agree about Matt Spiegel. He is one of the only guys in his business in this town who really called out Cowley on his crap. McNeil did also,but not in depth like Spiegel did. He really dug into how this whole soap opera is being orchestrated by the Cowley/Guillen clan,and just how unseemly it is to have a relationship of that nature between a media member and a manager.

Of course Bernstein came in and told Spiegel that he was naive and unrealistic to not realize that basically there are no straight journalists left and that everyone is filtering thru their own lens nowadays. Bernstein says Cowleys job is not to tell the truth,but to draw eyeballs....Bernstein clearly employs the same approach in his job...the ultimate cynic. Just assume that everyone is lying all the time and then you will not be disappointed?...what a crock. Speigels point was that Joe was being used by Ozzie to put out his side of the story, and it was simply not appropriate, and Bernstein responds by saying everybody uses everybody in the business to provide fodder for the clueless meatball public. Cowley and Bernstein,birds of a feather.

dickallen15
09-03-2011, 10:12 AM
There was a story several years ago about Kenny's dad filing a racial discrimination suit with the San Jose fire dept after being passed over for a promotion. I believe it ran around the time of Obama's election, and was part of a piece talking about how Kenny hoped to "make Obama proud". Anyway, I didn't hear the part of the interview where Joe was talking about KW not having a dad, so not sure what all he meant there, but it seemed from that article that Kenny's dad was definitely present and accounted for.

Edit: never mind I see now he's talking about after his dad died.

The dad stuff Cowley mentioned was about Ozzie, not KW. I believe KW's father is still alive. Ozzie's father issues may explain why Oney gets the run of the house actually. It doesn't make it right, but a little more understandable.

SI1020
09-03-2011, 10:37 AM
The Sox have an excellent pitching staff. They can compete with any team. I'm not arguing they are one of the elite teams, but if they were to make the playoffs, they would have as much a chance as anyone in the AL of advancing. Besides, for the future you didn't say "uncertainty", you said he will "probably never" compete again. We heard the same BS in 2007, and found ourselves in the playoffs the next season (and I know you will say that we backed in, the team had no talent and no shot, revisionist bull, revisionist bull). Still, lots of moves happen in the offeason. The biggest change at this point would be a change in manager/hitting coach, and it looks like there is a pretty good chance of that happening. Aside from that, other moves will be made, which are impossible to predict at this point. But with the Sox going "all in" in 2011, they have loads of payroll tied up for 2012, which means they will be "all in" next year, also. There is no way the team can go the firesale route at this point, so whoever is the GM in November will look to improve the team by trading Quentin for prospects or other help, using his money somewhere else, trading Danks for a monster haul if he won't sign an extension, possibly moving Thornton, filling any holes and yes, counting on Adam Dunn and Alex Rios to rebound to numbers close to their career averages. So saying the Sox will probably never compete in the next three years without knowing what moves will be made is just slightly less asinine than Hangar stomping his feet and saying "I hope you enjoy another 88 years without a championship." Besides, if the Sox go into rebuilding mode, Konerko would be traded, anyway. I admire your fierce optimism but I think this franchise is in serious trouble on many levels. Who would have thought that strong teams like the Pirates, Orioles and Royals would enter long dark tunnels? That is why I think it is imperative for a complete sweep from the GM on down. Coop, Herm Schneider and the sodfather can stay, everyone else thanks but good bye.

Brian26
09-03-2011, 03:28 PM
The dad stuff Cowley mentioned was about Ozzie, not KW. I believe KW's father is still alive. Ozzie's father issues may explain why Oney gets the run of the house actually. It doesn't make it right, but a little more understandable.

I only listened to about half of the audio before I had to turn it off, but I also thought that the dad comment was about Ozzie. It wasn't exactly clear because Speigal and Cowley kept talking over each other, but I thought Cowley said "after the divorce" and was referring to Ozzie wanting JR's love.

Jerko
09-03-2011, 03:38 PM
Damn, they should have saved that stupid reality show for this season

GoGoCrede
09-03-2011, 03:45 PM
Damn, they should have saved that stupid reality show for this season

That shouldn't even be in teal! :redneck

BainesHOF
09-04-2011, 02:18 AM
Even if Cowley was talking about Guillen's dad, it was just as inappropriate. But, of course, the problem with Cowley these days extends far beyond this.

I, too, heard Berstein basically becoming an apologist for Cowley's "journalism." It's too bad someone educated has given up so completely on journalism ethics that Cowley's smear job is deemed acceptable.