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Lip Man 1
08-28-2011, 09:22 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-takes-responsibility-for-viciedo-debate-20110828,0,2771029.story

Takes full responsibility for everything that happened with him this year. Insists that it would only hurt him if he was brought up earlier and could not play everyday. I assume then that now that he is here, he will be playing "every day" or it would seem Ozzie is being hypocritical.

Lip

HangWiffum
08-28-2011, 09:50 PM
This management staffs line of thinking is one of the reasons they should all be gone. I can't blame ozzie for adam dunn's struggles, but i can blame him for not benching him earlier and for continuing to hit him FOURTH!

Tannerfan
08-28-2011, 10:02 PM
Winning the division is not important.
The great Ozzie Guillen appearing to be correct is what matters.

TDog
08-28-2011, 10:14 PM
This management staffs line of thinking is one of the reasons they should all be gone. I can't blame ozzie for adam dunn's struggles, but i can blame him for not benching him earlier and for continuing to hit him FOURTH!

Dunn has hit in the sixth, seventh and eighth spot in the order 26 times. He has hit fourth 23 times (games in which the Sox are 11-12). Konerko has hit fourth in at least 60 more games than Dunn has. Dunn has only hit fourth once since the first week of August. Quentin has hit fourth twice as many times in August as Dunn has, and Quentin hasn't even played in more than a week.

If you're not watching, "continuing to hit Dunn fourth" might be an issue.

SI1020
08-28-2011, 10:19 PM
Dunn has hit in the sixth, seventh and eighth spot in the order 26 times. He has hit fourth 23 times (games in which the Sox are 11-12). Konerko has hit fourth in at least 60 more games than Dunn has. Dunn has only hit fourth once since the first week of August. Quentin has hit fourth twice as many times in August as Dunn has, and Quentin hasn't even played in more than a week.

If you're not watching, "continuing to hit Dunn fourth" might be an issue. Continuing to have him in the lineup at all has been an issue with me for quite some time.

JB98
08-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Dunn has hit in the sixth, seventh and eighth spot in the order 26 times. He has hit fourth 23 times (games in which the Sox are 11-12). Konerko has hit fourth in at least 60 more games than Dunn has. Dunn has only hit fourth once since the first week of August. Quentin has hit fourth twice as many times in August as Dunn has, and Quentin hasn't even played in more than a week.

If you're not watching, "continuing to hit Dunn fourth" might be an issue.

Adam Dunn has batted third, fourth or fifth in 80 games this year. That's about 50 games too many. Early in the year, fine. But after Ozzie moved him to the seven spot initially, he never should have been moved back up. In fact, he should have been moved to the bench.

The abundance of patience Guillen has shown with Dunn and Rios is one of the reasons the Sox need a miraculous comeback to make the postseason.

Brian26
08-28-2011, 10:22 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-takes-responsibility-for-viciedo-debate-20110828,0,2771029.story

Takes full responsibility for everything that happened with him this year. Insists that it would only hurt him if he was brought up earlier and could not play everyday. I assume then that now that he is here, he will be playing "every day" or it would seem Ozzie is being hypocritical.

Lip

Ozzie said on Comcast during the pre-game yesterday that he couldn't guarantee Viciedo would play everyday.

Noneck
08-28-2011, 10:24 PM
What ozwaldo said makes sense. There was no place for Viciedo and he never should have been a part time player. He also needed at least some experience before playing RF and the minors was the place for that.

Regarding Dunn being benched earlier this season, owners dont pay that kind of money and in a 1st year of a multiyear contact to see their investment on the pine.

SI1020
08-28-2011, 10:36 PM
What ozwaldo said makes sense. There was no place for Viciedo and he never should have been a part time player. He also needed at least some experience before playing RF and the minors was the place for that.

Regarding Dunn being benched earlier this season, owners dont pay that kind of money and in a 1st year of a multiyear contact to see their investment on the pine. Yeah why just waste money when you can waste games too.

JB98
08-28-2011, 10:46 PM
Ozzie said on Comcast during the pre-game yesterday that he couldn't guarantee Viciedo would play everyday.

I'm still worried he's going to platoon Dunn and Viciedo.

He sat De Aza today for some reason. :scratch:

It's like KW's speech about ignoring salary and playing the best guys never happened.

JC456
08-28-2011, 10:47 PM
What ozwaldo said makes sense. There was no place for Viciedo and he never should have been a part time player. He also needed at least some experience before playing RF and the minors was the place for that.

Regarding Dunn being benched earlier this season, owners dont pay that kind of money and in a 1st year of a multiyear contact to see their investment on the pine.
And that's why you don't see full houses, and a loss of revenue. Real smart! Viciedo is what 500K? Wouldn't have cost the franchise anything to make a move when Quinten got hurt. Batting Rios fourth is really irritating as well when DeAza is playing like he is. Again what 500k to bench your high salary player and loose nothing and maybe bring fans to the park. Kenny said as much. I guess that isn't Ozzie's objective.

Noneck
08-28-2011, 10:55 PM
And that's why you don't see full houses, and a loss of revenue. Real smart! Viciedo is what 500K? Wouldn't have cost the franchise anything to make a move when Quinten got hurt. Batting Rios fourth is really irritating as well when DeAza is playing like he is. Again what 500k to bench your high salary player and loose nothing and maybe bring fans to the park. Kenny said as much. I guess that isn't Ozzie's objective.

I dont think they knew Quentin would have been out as long as he is. Complaining about about where a stiff bats is legit but benching a high paid stiff early in a season just doesnt happen often. Btw: Viciedo is making 1.25M this year.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2011, 10:58 PM
JB:

Maybe Ozzie is pulling or trying to pull a power play with Kenny? Maybe force JR to finally have to make a decision??

I agree Kenny said one thing publicly to the media and Ozzie appears to have done the exact opposite for his own reasons.

Unfortunately that's the way the organization rolls the past few years.

The more I think about it, I really don't blame Kenny or Ozzie as much as JR. He has to know it's dysfunctional, he publicly told the media as much in D.C. last year...yet (so far) he simply does nothing.

Strange.

Lip

JB98
08-28-2011, 10:59 PM
JB:

Maybe Ozzie is pulling or trying to pull a power play with Kenny? Maybe force JR to finally have to make a decision??

I agree Kenny said one thing publicly to the media and Ozzie appears to have done the exact opposite for his own reasons.

Unfortunately that's the way the organization rolls the past few years.

The more I think about it, I really don't blame Kenny or Ozzie as much as JR. He has to know it's dysfunctional, he publicly told the media as much in D.C. last year...yet (so far) he simply does nothing.

Strange.

Lip

Possible. I know the two are not on the same page, which is the biggest reason I have called for change within the organization.

TDog
08-28-2011, 11:05 PM
Adam Dunn has batted third, fourth or fifth in 80 games this year. That's about 50 games too many. Early in the year, fine. But after Ozzie moved him to the seven spot initially, he never should have been moved back up. In fact, he should have been moved to the bench.

The abundance of patience Guillen has shown with Dunn and Rios is one of the reasons the Sox need a miraculous comeback to make the postseason.


I would have been very happy if the White Sox had never signed Adam Dunn, but it took at least 50 games for fans to notice that he couldn't hit (although he remains a better player offensively than defensively). I would have been happy, and even advocated, sending down a pitcher to make room for Viciedo, because there really isn't any room on the roster with Dunn and Rios not to see significant playing time. De Aza's promotion has made it possible to play Rios less, but Quentin's injury has canceled that effect. De Aza's promotion also has inspired Rios to work harder.

The reality is, the Sox bench isn't deep enough not to play Dunn and Rios. Rios is a better bench player than Dunn because Rios can pinch-run and has defensive skills. Dunn doesn't help you much on the bench because the opportunities for him to pinch-hit are limited, and anything else would be an emergency situation. The problem isn't Guillen playing Dunn or incorrectly positioning him in the order. The problem is with Dunn being on the team. The rosters are going to have to expand for him to see significant bench time.

You should have been complaining about Dunn when he was signed.

I am happy that Guillen showed patience with Pierre, though. Has anyone noticed that despite his awful start, he leads the Sox in hits?

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2011, 11:09 PM
What ozwaldo said makes sense. There was no place for Viciedo and he never should have been a part time player. He also needed at least some experience before playing RF and the minors was the place for that.

Regarding Dunn being benched earlier this season, owners dont pay that kind of money and in a 1st year of a multiyear contact to see their investment on the pine.
Once they saw that he was a bust, it was a boneheaded financial move NOT to bench him, because their play has really hurt them at the gate, and Dunn is a big reason for our record.

JB98
08-28-2011, 11:10 PM
I would have been very happy if the White Sox had never signed Adam Dunn, but it took at least 50 games for fans to notice that he couldn't hit (although he remains a better player offensively than defensively). I would have been happy, and even advocated, sending down a pitcher to make room for Viciedo, because there really isn't any room on the roster with Dunn and Rios not to see significant playing time. De Aza's promotion has made it possible to play Rios less, but Quentin's injury has canceled that effect. De Aza's promotion also has inspired Rios to work harder.

The reality is, the Sox bench isn't deep enough not to play Dunn and Rios. Rios is a better bench player than Dunn because Rios can pinch-run and has defensive skills. Dunn doesn't help you much on the bench because the opportunities for him to pinch-hit are limited, and anything else would be an emergency situation. The problem isn't Guillen playing Dunn or incorrectly positioning him in the order. The problem is with Dunn being on the team. The rosters are going to have to expand for him to see significant bench time.

You should have been complaining about Dunn when he was signed

I am happy that Guillen showed patience with Pierre, though. Has anyone noticed that despite his awful start, he leads the Sox in hits?

Why? If Dunn produces to career norms, he fills the DH role nicely. Just hasn't happened, and unfortunately, Guillen has refused to adjust. Refusing to adjust is what he does.

Noneck
08-28-2011, 11:28 PM
Once they saw that he was a bust, it was a boneheaded financial move NOT to bench him, because their play has really hurt them at the gate, and Dunn is a big reason for our record.


It is really difficult to fathom that Dunn could have continued to hit as bad as he did and NO ONE knew that he wouldnt be at least be acceptable at some point of the season. Hindsight is always 20/20.

JC456
08-28-2011, 11:35 PM
I dont think they knew Quentin would have been out as long as he is. Complaining about about where a stiff bats is legit but benching a high paid stiff early in a season just doesnt happen often. Btw: Viciedo is making 1.25M this year.
I never said anything about the beginning of the year I said after Quentin got hurt. They could have put Dunn on the DL and let Viciedo play right and wait on Quentin. If Quentin came back he'd DH and share right field with Viciedo. My previous statement still stands. and as for Viciedo's salary, they pay him anyway and remaining probably 500K. He showed his value in his first game. And that could have been two weeks ago. Shame winning isn't 'all in'.

Noneck
08-28-2011, 11:41 PM
I never said anything about the beginning of the year I said after Quentin got hurt. They could have put Dunn on the DL and let Viciedo play right and wait on Quentin. If Quentin came back he'd DH and share right field with Viciedo. My previous statement still stands.

You cant arbitrarily put Dunn on the DL, the players association would be all over that like flies to crap. And dont expect Dunn or any other player to fake an injury for this to happen.

DumpJerry
08-28-2011, 11:45 PM
Viciedo is what 500K? Wouldn't have cost the franchise anything to make a move when Quinten got hurt.
500K? Where did you get that figure? His contract is four years, $10,000,000.00 (that includes a $4,000,000.00 signing bonus).

Noneck
08-28-2011, 11:48 PM
500K? Where did you get that figure? His contract is four years, $10,000,000.00 (that includes a $4,000,000.00 signing bonus).

Yeah, The Sox are into Viciedo for about 7.5M now. Where this 500k comes from, I have no idea.

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2011, 11:52 PM
It is really difficult to fathom that Dunn could have continued to hit as bad as he did and NO ONE knew that he wouldnt be at least be acceptable at some point of the season. Hindsight is always 20/20.
There's a certain point in the season where you have got to say "enough is enough" as a manager or GM.

Noneck
08-29-2011, 12:04 AM
There's a certain point in the season where you have got to say "enough is enough" as a manager or GM.

It might be easier for a GM or manager than an owner that has just signed a guy to a multi year big money contract to say enough.

Hopefully that time has come now and hoping against hope that its not too late.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 12:10 AM
Once they saw that he was a bust, it was a boneheaded financial move NOT to bench him, because their play has really hurt them at the gate, and Dunn is a big reason for our record.
So, the team will somehow be more competitive with a 24 man roster? A long-term benching is a simplistic solution which does not solve anything.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 12:50 AM
You cant arbitrarily put Dunn on the DL, the players association would be all over that like flies to crap. And dont expect Dunn or any other player to fake an injury for this to happen.Just how damn many times does this and the rules on sending veterans to the minors have to be explained? Anybody who criticizes Sox management, and then suggests that they should be doing things that the rules of baseball and the collective bargaining agreement do not allow loses all of their credibility to criticize anybody. They clearly don't understand the limitations management operates under, therefore they cannot criticize.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 12:52 AM
T-Dog says:

"You should have been complaining about Dunn when he was signed" (like I was...:rolleyes:)

FREE NATE SCHIERHOLTZ!!!

I say we start a petition to see if we can get T-Dog appointed the new GM by JR!

Lip

Noneck
08-29-2011, 01:01 AM
Just how damn many times does this and the rules on sending veterans to the minors have to be explained? Anybody who criticizes Sox management, and then suggests that they should be doing things that the rules of baseball and the collective bargaining agreement do not allow loses all of their credibility to criticize anybody. They clearly don't understand the limitations management operates under, therefore they cannot criticize.

Why you getting on me for this? Did you read my post? I understand the rules.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 01:03 AM
Why you getting on me for this? Did you read my post? I understand the rules.

He's not getting on you. He quoted you because you discussed the subject, and then he agreed with you.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 01:04 AM
T-Dog says:

"You should have been complaining about Dunn when he was signed" (like I was...:rolleyes:)

FREE NATE SCHIERHOLTZ!!!

Nate Schierholtz may be the NL MVP this season.

Noneck
08-29-2011, 01:07 AM
He's not getting on you. He quoted you because you discussed the subject, and then he agreed with you.

Its late, I must have misread. Thanks.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 01:09 AM
Why you getting on me for this? Did you read my post? I understand the rules.

He's not getting on you. He quoted you because you discussed the subject, and then he agreed with you.Exactly. I quoted you because you were correct, and then was asking why it's so difficult for others to understand these couple of simple facts, especially when they've been explained repeatedly on these threads.

JC456
08-29-2011, 02:33 AM
Just how damn many times does this and the rules on sending veterans to the minors have to be explained? Anybody who criticizes Sox management, and then suggests that they should be doing things that the rules of baseball and the collective bargaining agreement do not allow loses all of their credibility to criticize anybody. They clearly don't understand the limitations management operates under, therefore they cannot criticize.
I never said send him to the minors, I said DL!

JC456
08-29-2011, 02:36 AM
Yeah, The Sox are into Viciedo for about 7.5M now. Where this 500k comes from, I have no idea.
Well again you didn't read my post, I said he is getting paid already by the Sox so it isn't extra money and for the year, this year, he probably has 500k to go out of 1.25M. He doesn't get all 10M up front just because he came up.

Mohoney
08-29-2011, 03:05 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-guillen-takes-responsibility-for-viciedo-debate-20110828,0,2771029.story

Takes full responsibility for everything that happened with him this year. Insists that it would only hurt him if he was brought up earlier and could not play everyday. I assume then that now that he is here, he will be playing "every day" or it would seem Ozzie is being hypocritical.

Lip

Charlotte's season is done soon, and he would have been up here as a September call-up anyway. There is no place for him to play every day this time of year anyway.

hawkjt
08-29-2011, 03:22 AM
Ozzie had to play Dunn to this point....reality,gang. He is making huge money,and has a great track record of being about the most consistent power hitter in MLB...Oz had to assume he would hit at some point.
He never did...it is an total aberration for a major leaguer to be that bad,really.

Viciedo needed to season down in minors...he looks way more selective already in his first day. He needed to learn to play right field. Now,he is ready to take over right or left field next year.

No one made the wrong moves here,after the Dunn signing. It just did not work out. Fingerpointing is a waste of time. No ones fault,cept for Dunn.

DeAza vs the lefty? Nah. I think Oz needs to try to keep Rios somewhat active...he did get a hit today.

From here on out, Ozz will mix and match at catcher,center,right,first base,and DH....just hope he guesses right.

TDog
08-29-2011, 04:16 AM
Why? If Dunn produces to career norms, he fills the DH role nicely. Just hasn't happened, and unfortunately, Guillen has refused to adjust. Refusing to adjust is what he does.

Didn't anyone watch Dunn when he played against the White Sox last year? Did he impress as a hitter fans wanted in the White Sox lineup. But even if you only care about stats, if you expect a player to strike out a third of the time, are you surprised when he turns into an offensive block hole that sucks the life out of innings? Bringing him over from the National League into a position where he would have to learn most of the pitchers, did you expect career statistical norms in other categories?

Adjustment would be moving Dunn's contract to another team. There is no adjustment you can make when adjustment is benching a player who offers almost no value off the bench. As DumpJerry wrote, benching Dunn is playing with a 24-man roster.

Dunn didn't even want to go on the disabled list when he had his appendix removed in April. Maybe if he had, and had taken a minor league rehab assignment before coming back, he would have awesome Mark Reynolds numbers. In any case, there is no way Dunn would have agreed to go on the DL without an injury.

wassagstdu
08-29-2011, 07:10 AM
Again what 500k to bench your high salary player and loose nothing and maybe bring fans to the park. Kenny said as much. I guess that isn't Ozzie's objective.

So KW washes his hands of this debacle with his little speech about playing the best regardless of salary. And gets away with it? Unvelievable.

MISoxfan
08-29-2011, 08:04 AM
Didn't anyone watch Dunn when he played against the White Sox last year? Did he impress as a hitter fans wanted in the White Sox lineup. But even if you only care about stats, if you expect a player to strike out a third of the time, are you surprised when he turns into an offensive block hole that sucks the life out of innings? Bringing him over from the National League into a position where he would have to learn most of the pitchers, did you expect career statistical norms in other categories?

A guy who came from the minors at 21 years old and batted .262 with 19 home runs and 43 rbis in 286 plate appearances while learning most of the pitchers should be able to transition from the NL to the AL. Maybe not to his career norms, but its not unreasonable to at least expect his previous worst season when he hit .234 avg/.365 with 40 HRs. He would still have his detractors saying it was a mistake for the reasons they thought it was a mistake, but we would be in first place.

Now we just get to hear everyone saying its a mistake, but its not because of anything anyone at all predicted.

JC456
08-29-2011, 09:09 AM
So KW washes his hands of this debacle with his little speech about playing the best regardless of salary. And gets away with it? Unvelievable.
he isn't going to be able to get them out of here and he has to get fans in the seats. I would say what he said yes! Why should someone get playing time when they don't produce? you teach no lessen to others on the team and guess what you get long slumps!!!! Doh! Let me ask you, would you have brought Dunn in here? I was all for it. The guy has a problem and playing it out isn't working. That isn't on Kenny sorry, that's on Dunn and for me he's finished for the year playing other than some spot starts.

kufram
08-29-2011, 09:10 AM
You have to look at Viciedo as an investment, also. This investment was being protected and maturing in a situation that was best suited for it to grow. To try to cash in on it early in a panic situation could have been damaging to the long term results we all hope Viciedo brings.

Some of the arguments being made are nonsensical and fly in the face of proper player management. There are rules, as others have pointed out, that have to be followed.

What matters is what happens NOW. We have the expanded roster to help very soon and we have a few young players fighting for their futures and currently succeeding and the team dynamic has changed with their performances.

russ99
08-29-2011, 09:40 AM
Adam Dunn has batted third, fourth or fifth in 80 games this year. That's about 50 games too many. Early in the year, fine. But after Ozzie moved him to the seven spot initially, he never should have been moved back up. In fact, he should have been moved to the bench.

The abundance of patience Guillen has shown with Dunn and Rios is one of the reasons the Sox need a miraculous comeback to make the postseason.

Again, there's precedence to this.

In 2007 Dye was in a horrible slump and Ozzie let him play out of it. He rebounded and hit .300 in August and .292 in September. Same thing with Konerko in 2008. He had a horrible first half (playing through an injury) and hit .333 in August and .260 in September. Last year it was A.J. who had the worst 3 months of his career, then hit .353 in August and .342 in September.

I don't understand the constant ripping of a guy who is at worst consistent. It's not like Ozzie took leave of his senses and played Dunn and Rios out of spite as some suggest around here. He had reasons why he did it and a track record of success being patient. Rios had a bit of a resurgence hitting a (not great) .250 in August so far. But it didn't work with Dunn, he looks just as lost now as he did in April.

blandman
08-29-2011, 10:14 AM
again, there's precedence to this.

In 2007 dye was in a horrible slump and ozzie let him play out of it. He rebounded and hit .300 in august and .292 in september. Same thing with konerko in 2008. He had a horrible first half (playing through an injury) and hit .333 in august and .260 in september. Last year it was a.j. Who had the worst 3 months of his career, then hit .353 in august and .342 in september.

I don't understand the constant ripping of a guy who is at worst consistent. It's not like ozzie took leave of his senses and played dunn and rios out of spite as some suggest around here. He had reasons why he did it and a track record of success being patient. Rios had a bit of a resurgence hitting a (not great) .250 in august so far. But it didn't work with dunn, he looks just as lost now as he did in april.

+1

hawkjt
08-29-2011, 10:20 AM
Again, there's precedence to this.

In 2007 Dye was in a horrible slump and Ozzie let him play out of it. He rebounded and hit .300 in August and .292 in September. Same thing with Konerko in 2008. He had a horrible first half (playing through an injury) and hit .333 in August and .260 in September. Last year it was A.J. who had the worst 3 months of his career, then hit .353 in August and .342 in September.

I don't understand the constant ripping of a guy who is at worst consistent. It's not like Ozzie took leave of his senses and played Dunn and Rios out of spite as some suggest around here. He had reasons why he did it and a track record of success being patient. Rios had a bit of a resurgence hitting a (not great) .250 in August so far. But it didn't work with Dunn, he looks just as lost now as he did in April.


Exactly. Fans and media were screaming for Kenny to release Juan,and Ozzie to sit him in June. Ozzie looked at his career average of .316 in the second half,and kept playing him. He is hitting at least .335 since June 27th.
And just saying that Dunn was destined to never hit this year because he was changing leagues is not proven out in other cases. Adrian Gonzo,anyone? Guys switch leagues and still hit close to their career numbers all the time,otherwise,there would be a highly publicized ''discount'' for players signing to another league,and players would never sign with the other league.

Face it, Dunn is baseball magic in reverse. Some things cannot be explained or blamed on the GM or Manager. This is one of those things.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 10:25 AM
Face it, Dunn is baseball magic in reverse. Some things cannot be explained or blamed on the GM or Manager. This is one of those things.

Again, very few people are questioning whether Ozzie should have been playing Dunn regularly or not, of course we all recognize that Dunn's career track record is too enticing to just rot away on the bench, and if he could have ever turned his season around at any point, we'd be sitting pretty right now.

But constantly batting him 4th or 5th in the lineup? That's kind of what people are upset about.

It's OK, barring a September miracle, Ozzie will hopefully be on a 1-way plane ride to Miami. So either way, some good should come of this.

Fisk Fan
08-29-2011, 11:02 AM
Again, very few people are questioning whether Ozzie should have been playing Dunn regularly or not, of course we all recognize that Dunn's career track record is too enticing to just rot away on the bench, and if he could have ever turned his season around at any point, we'd be sitting pretty right now.

But constantly batting him 4th or 5th in the lineup? That's kind of what people are upset about.

It's OK, barring a September miracle, Ozzie will hopefully be on a 1-way plane ride to Miami. So either way, some good should come of this.

That's the only issue most of us had with playing Dunn. Did he really have to bat in a spot that's reserved for guys who drive in runs? He has been a rally killer all season. Now, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about continuing to play Juan Pierre, so Oz gets some slack on that front, but there have been way too many questionable decisions this year to not wonder what he is thinking most of the time.......

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 12:07 PM
I never said send him to the minors, I said DL!
You do realize that requires a legitimate injury? You know, documented by doctors.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 12:10 PM
I never said send him to the minors, I said DL!And you prove yet again that you don't read and comprehend what is said on here. I was addressing the post that responded to yours (I even quoted it,) in which it was pointed out that you CANNOT arbitrarily assign someone to the DL just because you want to open up a roster spot or get a player off your bench for a while. The Players' Association wouldn't stand for it. If he's not verifiably injured, you can't put him on the DL. If it was permitted, teams would be shuffling players on and off the DL like passengers on an El train.

I then added that some people (like you, apparently) can't grasp this, just like they can't grasp that you can't "send down" a player with five years of service time or more.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 12:27 PM
I never said send him to the minors, I said DL!

And you can't do that either...

Marqhead
08-29-2011, 12:42 PM
You do realize that requires a legitimate injury? You know, documented by doctors.

Isn't there an equivalent of "inflamed ERA" for batters?

Foulke You
08-29-2011, 12:51 PM
Didn't anyone watch Dunn when he played against the White Sox last year? Did he impress as a hitter fans wanted in the White Sox lineup. But even if you only care about stats, if you expect a player to strike out a third of the time, are you surprised when he turns into an offensive block hole that sucks the life out of innings? Bringing him over from the National League into a position where he would have to learn most of the pitchers, did you expect career statistical norms in other categories?
So Dunn had a bad 3 game series against the Sox last year and KW should have known he wouldn't be a 40HR/100RBI guy anymore? :scratch: Your strikeout argument doesn't hold water either. Just because a guy Ks a lot doesn't automatically mean he becomes an offensive black hole. Jim Thome and Reggie Jackson struck out a TON in their careers but nobody would argue that both were offensive forces in their respective lineups. I know you don't like Dunn (apparently even when he was good) but the bottom line is nobody would be complaining about him if he was producing to his career norms. The Sox would also likely be up at the top of the division with Detroit or ahead of them too. Nobody and I mean NOBODY predicted this historic slide into oblivion for Adam Dunn.

Foulke You
08-29-2011, 12:59 PM
I'm still worried he's going to platoon Dunn and Viciedo.
I'm afraid of this too because Ozzie pretty much only let Viciedo hit against lefty pitchers during his 2010 stint with the big club last year. Not to mention Ozzie's known lust for the lefty/righty matchups regardless of what the stat sheet says. It would make even less sense to bat Viciedo exclusively against leftys because he actually hit right handers BETTER this year in AAA than he did leftys. Take a look at his stats:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

JB98
08-29-2011, 01:59 PM
Again, there's precedence to this.

In 2007 Dye was in a horrible slump and Ozzie let him play out of it. He rebounded and hit .300 in August and .292 in September. Same thing with Konerko in 2008. He had a horrible first half (playing through an injury) and hit .333 in August and .260 in September. Last year it was A.J. who had the worst 3 months of his career, then hit .353 in August and .342 in September.

I don't understand the constant ripping of a guy who is at worst consistent. It's not like Ozzie took leave of his senses and played Dunn and Rios out of spite as some suggest around here. He had reasons why he did it and a track record of success being patient. Rios had a bit of a resurgence hitting a (not great) .250 in August so far. But it didn't work with Dunn, he looks just as lost now as he did in April.

There's slumping, and then there's falling off a cliff.

Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko have NEVER had a season like the one Adam Dunn is having right now. In fact, Dunn might be having the worst year of any hitter in modern baseball history.

There's comes a point in the season where a manager can't "believe the back of the baseball card" anymore. We passed that mark awhile ago, IMO. Like doub mentioned, I'd be a little more forgiving if Ozzie had at least moved Dunn down in the order sooner than he did. Instead, Dunn was allowed to bat in the middle of the lineup and kill rallies on a daily basis. Not to mention, teams stopped giving Konerko anything to hit, knowing they could retire Dunn easily to escape any jam.

Ozzie has had a bad year and that's all there is to it. He hasn't had as bad a year as Adam Dunn, but there's plenty of disappointment to go around. I'm disappointed with a lot of people in the Sox organization this year.

JB98
08-29-2011, 02:02 PM
I'm afraid of this too because Ozzie pretty much only let Viciedo hit against lefty pitchers during his 2010 stint with the big club last year. Not to mention Ozzie's known lust for the lefty/righty matchups regardless of what the stat sheet says. It would make even less sense to bat Viciedo exclusively against leftys because he actually hit right handers BETTER this year in AAA than he did leftys. Take a look at his stats:

http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

Personally, I'd like to see how Viciedo hits against MLB right-handers down the stretch here. I want him to get the opportunity.

At this point, I'm more of the mindset that we should be giving extended looks to young players the last month. Our chances in this division are slim. And, frankly, the recent callups have provided the team with some energy and they might be our best chance to get back in the race anyway.

blandman
08-29-2011, 02:02 PM
There's slumping, and then there's falling off a cliff.

Jermaine Dye and Paul Konerko have NEVER had a season like the one Adam Dunn is having right now. In fact, Dunn might be having the worst year of any hitter in modern baseball history.

There's comes a point in the season where a manager can't "believe the back of the baseball card" anymore. We passed that mark awhile ago, IMO. Like doub mentioned, I'd be a little more forgiving if Ozzie had at least moved Dunn down in the order sooner than he did. Instead, Dunn was allowed to bat in the middle of the lineup and kill rallies on a daily basis. Not to mention, teams stopped giving Konerko anything to hit, knowing they could retire Dunn easily to escape any jam.

Ozzie has had a bad year and that's all there is to it. He hasn't had as bad a year as Adam Dunn, but there's plenty of disappointment to go around. I'm disappointed with a lot of people in the Sox organization this year.

Konerko was pretty close to useless one year, IMHO.

JB98
08-29-2011, 02:06 PM
Didn't anyone watch Dunn when he played against the White Sox last year? Did he impress as a hitter fans wanted in the White Sox lineup. But even if you only care about stats, if you expect a player to strike out a third of the time, are you surprised when he turns into an offensive block hole that sucks the life out of innings? Bringing him over from the National League into a position where he would have to learn most of the pitchers, did you expect career statistical norms in other categories?

Adjustment would be moving Dunn's contract to another team. There is no adjustment you can make when adjustment is benching a player who offers almost no value off the bench. As DumpJerry wrote, benching Dunn is playing with a 24-man roster.

Dunn didn't even want to go on the disabled list when he had his appendix removed in April. Maybe if he had, and had taken a minor league rehab assignment before coming back, he would have awesome Mark Reynolds numbers. In any case, there is no way Dunn would have agreed to go on the DL without an injury.

Yes. I am surprised that Dunn has been so poor. He's a lifetime .244 hitter who had hit 38 or more home runs in each of the past eight seasons.

You continue to post as if you completely expected Dunn to hit .160 with 11 home runs this year. I don't see how anyone could have expected him to be this poor. This is a complete outlier from what he's done previously in his career.

I'm sure you'll continue to tell us that you knew it all along, but I'm not buying that. No reasonable person would have expected Dunn to fall off a cliff like this.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Konerko was pretty close to useless one year, IMHO.

Konerko was quite awful in 2003 and yet, he finished that season .234/.305/.399, there is absolutely no way Dunn even sniffs at that line this year.

Also, the 2003 White Sox weren't beating us over the head telling everyone how "all in" they were and how everything short of winning was a disappointment. You can't have it both ways, telling everyone that your #1 goal is to win right now and then spend 1/2 the season stroking the confidence of a guy mired in a miserable, miserable funk. Even moreso since the Central this year has been so wretchedly awful. Even an average team would be leading the Tigers right now.

JB98
08-29-2011, 02:11 PM
Konerko was pretty close to useless one year, IMHO.

Konerko's two worst seasons:
2003: .234 avg., 18 HRs, 65 RBIs, 50 Ks, .305 OBP, .399 slugging.
2008: .240 avg., 22 HRs, 62 RBIs, 80 Ks, .344 OBP, .438 slugging.

Adam Dunn:
2011: .163 avg., 11 HRs, 40 RBIs, 156 Ks, .290 OBP, .289 slugging.

As I indicated, Konerko has never had a season as bad as the year Dunn is having. And even if we wanted to compare 2003 Konerko to 2011 Dunn, we have no idea how Guillen would have handled 2003 Konerko because Manuel was managing at the time.

Rocky Soprano
08-29-2011, 02:16 PM
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6826/viciedo.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/viciedo.jpg/)

SoxSpeed22
08-29-2011, 02:23 PM
I'm with our English representative on this one. Bringing up Viciedo in June could have hurt his development when he was still developing his plate discipline and trying to shorten his swing. He could have also had down time instead of playing every day and getting more at bats. We don't have much going forward, so developing Viciedo is important.
Dunn wasn't the only problem with the offense, Pierre was a problem for the first two months, Rios has been a problem all year, Beckham has also had a lot of trouble this year. Unfortunately, Dunn has been the biggest problem so far and adds nothing else to the team besides his power. And since he can't be sent to the minors (before Nellie gets a stroke from repeating this over and over again) we were stuck with him.

SI1020
08-29-2011, 03:01 PM
http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/6826/viciedo.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/854/viciedo.jpg/) Carl Skanberg is the man.

hawkjt
08-29-2011, 04:19 PM
Again, this was a perfect storm of hitting problems that all collided.

If you bring up Viciedo, you have to sit Dunn,or Carlos ,to play him. Carlos was productive,and Dunn was a proven producer the last 7 years who was paid 14 million to hit. Pierre was a leadoff hitter who had a history of hitting better after June. Rios was bad,but no one else could really play center.

It was a rubic's cube of bad baseball luck. **** happens.

JC456
08-29-2011, 05:14 PM
And you prove yet again that you don't read and comprehend what is said on here. I was addressing the post that responded to yours (I even quoted it,) in which it was pointed out that you CANNOT arbitrarily assign someone to the DL just because you want to open up a roster spot or get a player off your bench for a while. The Players' Association wouldn't stand for it. If he's not verifiably injured, you can't put him on the DL. If it was permitted, teams would be shuffling players on and off the DL like passengers on an El train.

I then added that some people (like you, apparently) can't grasp this, just like they can't grasp that you can't "send down" a player with five years of service time or more.
Look I never, never said anything about the minors, and your post was on mine. BTW, there is a doctor on staff and can send anyone on the DL for some reason or another. Happens all the time. Don't give me that, you really believe everyone on the DL is actually hurt huh? Naive there. It is called creative and definitely something the White Sox are not!
Like me? I want you to produce where I ever said send Dunn or Rios to the minors. That is just your sorry lame response for being a jerk!

Mod Edit: And that's why you just got a week off.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 05:20 PM
Look I never, never said anything about the minors, and your post was on mine. BTW, there is a doctor on staff and can send anyone on the DL for some reason or another. Happens all the time. Don't give me that, you really believe everyone on the DL is actually hurt huh? Naive there. It is called creative and definitely something the White Sox are not!
Like me? I want you to produce where I ever said send Dunn or Rios to the minors. That is just your sorry lame response for being a jerk!
If the Players Association or MLB sniff a hint of impropriety when someone is sent to the DL, they will send a doctor in to see if the injury is for real. The team doctors (there are several, not just one) lie or otherwise bull**** an injury report, they would probably not be allowed near another professional athlete ever again.

If this "happens all the time," please provide details and how you know the athlete involved was not injured enough to be on the injury list. :popcorn:

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 05:21 PM
Look I never, never said anything about the minors, and your post was on mine. BTW, there is a doctor on staff and can send anyone on the DL for some reason or another. Happens all the time. Don't give me that, you really believe everyone on the DL is actually hurt huh? Naive there. It is called creative and definitely something the White Sox are not!
Like me? I want you to produce where I ever said send Dunn or Rios to the minors. That is just your sorry lame response for being a jerk!

Mod Edit: And that's why you just got a week off.

This whole post is...:rolleyes:

Noneck
08-29-2011, 05:25 PM
Well again you didn't read my post, I said he is getting paid already by the Sox so it isn't extra money and for the year, this year, he probably has 500k to go out of 1.25M. He doesn't get all 10M up front just because he came up.

It is actually less than half of that, approx. 210k.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 05:31 PM
I want you to produce where I ever said send Dunn or Rios to the minors. I never said that you said that. BOTH TIMES I was addressing your wanting him sent to the DL, and pointing out that you CANNOT do that. Both times, you came back with "I didn't say send them to the minors." It is clear that you either cannot read or cannot comprehend.

I added the part about SOME PEOPLE suggesting he be sent to the minors in the category of things that CANNOT BE DONE that people just can't seem to grasp.

1. You CANNOT send a player to the DL unless he is actually, verifiably injured.

2. You CANNOT send a five-year veteran to the minors without him clearing waivers AND agreeing to be sent down.

Take your pick of which one applies to the remedy you propose.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 05:38 PM
I never said that you said that. BOTH TIMES I was addressing your wanting him sent to the DL, and pointing out that you CANNOT do that. Both times, you came back with "I didn't say send them to the minors." It is clear that you either cannot read or cannot comprehend.

I added the part about SOME PEOPLE suggesting he be sent to the minors in the category of things that CANNOT BE DONE that people just can't seem to grasp.

1. You CANNOT send a player to the DL unless he is actually, verifiably injured.

2. You CANNOT send a five-year veteran to the minors without him clearing waivers AND agreeing to be sent down.

Take your pick of which one applies to the remedy you propose.

Dude, it happens all the time!!! Phantom injuries. The proof is that I say it happens all the time!!! How naive of you.

I tell ya, agree or disagree as I do with many of you frequently, it is great to be on a site with a core of posters who know their stuff and call out people on b.s. while providing concrete evidence. You don't see that often enough on the interwebs or in life, in general, anymore.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 05:51 PM
Hawk:

All I can say is that it seems the Sox have been getting a lot of "perfect storms" going back to the Frank Thomas situation.

Lip

Frontman
08-29-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm just about sick of Ozzie/Kenny and their "dysfunctional relationship."

Either get on the same page, or show BOTH OF THEM the door. Otherwise, it will take years to get a mananger/GM to work together properly.

If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, Kenny will not listen to the new manager; and vice versa. The remaining member of this duo will feed that they were right, the other was wrong, and nothing will improve.

kevingrt
08-29-2011, 06:39 PM
I'm just about sick of Ozzie/Kenny and their "dysfunctional relationship."

Either get on the same page, or show BOTH OF THEM the door. Otherwise, it will take years to get a mananger/GM to work together properly.

If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, Kenny will not listen to the new manager; and vice versa. The remaining member of this duo will feed that they were right, the other was wrong, and nothing will improve.

Pretty much completely agree. Both have ginormous ego's and I think they only people they will be able to work with in this organization is each other. I do not see any good in just keeping one of them around because it will feed the other's ego so much. JR needs to either keep both of them and tell them to shut up. Or the better option is to just clean house and start anew. Or we just promote Cora to manager and Hahn to GM. But I don't think that will be happening.

Daver
08-29-2011, 07:02 PM
Dude, it happens all the time!!! Phantom injuries. The proof is that I say it happens all the time!!! How naive of you.

I tell ya, agree or disagree as I do with many of you frequently, it is great to be on a site with a core of posters who know their stuff and call out people on b.s. while providing concrete evidence. You don't see that often enough on the interwebs or in life, in general, anymore.


Balderdash.

Crestani
08-29-2011, 07:07 PM
Dude, it happens all the time!!! Phantom injuries. The proof is that I say it happens all the time!!! How naive of you.

I tell ya, agree or disagree as I do with many of you frequently, it is great to be on a site with a core of posters who know their stuff and call out people on b.s. while providing concrete evidence. You don't see that often enough on the interwebs or in life, in general, anymore.


I look forward in breaking up my work day by coming on WSI to read all the comments posted by our members. Quite frankly, I find that most are bright and articulate.

White Sox fans, got to love them...!!!

balke
08-29-2011, 07:17 PM
Did anyone mention Viciedo had a thumb injury and Dunn has probably played more due to Konerko being injured?

You had to ride out Dunn. the Braves let Uggla play out - and he came back to doing what he does. Dunn just sucks that bad. Next season he'll be back again and they'll have to let him play it out again until the deadline at least.

SI1020
08-29-2011, 07:22 PM
Did anyone mention Viciedo had a thumb injury and Dunn has probably played more due to Konerko being injured?

You had to ride out Dunn. the Braves let Uggla play out - and he came back to doing what he does. Dunn just sucks that bad. Next season he'll be back again and they'll have to let him play it out again until the deadline at least. I hope not.

TDog
08-29-2011, 08:48 PM
So Dunn had a bad 3 game series against the Sox last year and KW should have known he wouldn't be a 40HR/100RBI guy anymore? :scratch: Your strikeout argument doesn't hold water either. Just because a guy Ks a lot doesn't automatically mean he becomes an offensive black hole. Jim Thome and Reggie Jackson struck out a TON in their careers but nobody would argue that both were offensive forces in their respective lineups. I know you don't like Dunn (apparently even when he was good) but the bottom line is nobody would be complaining about him if he was producing to his career norms. The Sox would also likely be up at the top of the division with Detroit or ahead of them too. Nobody and I mean NOBODY predicted this historic slide into oblivion for Adam Dunn.

As long as I've been watching Adam Dunn play baseball, I have never believed he was a very good hitter because he makes so little contact. He always has. If he had a good eye for balls and strikes, he wouldn't get called out on strikes so much. There were probably only three or four years in Reggie Jackson's career when he averaged more than a strikeout a game. In his prime years, from the time he was 26 to age 35, I don't think he ever struck out 140 times or led the league in strikeouts. The knock against Reggie Jackson was that he only hit .262 during his career while striking out way too much. Dunn in his golden years doesn't hit nearly as well and strikes out way too often.

You are right in the respect that I did expect Dunn to hit over .200. I expected he would do what Mark Reynolds is doing for the Orioles, which would be a disappointment if it were Dunn doing it for the Sox. I didn't expect Dunn to hit 30 home runs this year, though. (I didn't type that into the preseason thread predicting Dunn's home run totals because I was being personally attacked for posting in other threads that I thought signing Dunn was a huge mistake. I continue to be questioned about my position, and when I defend myself, I am attacked for "patting myself on the back," gloating about being right about Dunn, which is not what I am doing.)

I watched Dunn play baseball when he was with the Reds, Diamondbacks and Nationals. I didn't believe you could plug him into an American League contender and get big home run/runs batted in numbers. I was dumbfounded that the White Sox gave him so much money for so long.

Dunn being a disappointment was predictable. I wasn't the only one who predicted it. We just didn't predict that his numbers would be this bad while disappointing.

Frater Perdurabo
08-29-2011, 09:31 PM
As long as I've been watching Adam Dunn play baseball, I have never believed he was a very good hitter because he makes so little contact. He always has. If he had a good eye for balls and strikes, he wouldn't get called out on strikes so much. There were probably only three or four years in Reggie Jackson's career when he averaged more than a strikeout a game. In his prime years, from the time he was 26 to age 35, I don't think he ever struck out 140 times or led the league in strikeouts. The knock against Reggie Jackson was that he only hit .262 during his career while striking out way too much. Dunn in his golden years doesn't hit nearly as well and strikes out way too often.

You are right in the respect that I did expect Dunn to hit over .200. I expected he would do what Mark Reynolds is doing for the Orioles, which would be a disappointment if it were Dunn doing it for the Sox. I didn't expect Dunn to hit 30 home runs this year, though. (I didn't type that into the preseason thread predicting Dunn's home run totals because I was being personally attacked for posting in other threads that I thought signing Dunn was a huge mistake. I continue to be questioned about my position, and when I defend myself, I am attacked for "patting myself on the back," gloating about being right about Dunn, which is not what I am doing.)

I watched Dunn play baseball when he was with the Reds, Diamondbacks and Nationals. I didn't believe you could plug him into an American League contender and get big home run/runs batted in numbers. I was dumbfounded that the White Sox gave him so much money for so long.

Dunn being a disappointment was predictable. I wasn't the only one who predicted it. We just didn't predict that his numbers would be this bad while disappointing.

TDog, you're an astute observer of the game of baseball (and I mean that with all sincerity), so can you try to diagnose what Dunn's problem might be? Why did you think he would struggle so much coming to the AL, when he would be put in a lineup in which he theoretically would have the protection of dangerous sluggers like PK and Quentin? Second, why do you think he's struggled even more than you had feared?

SI1020
08-29-2011, 09:40 PM
You are right in the respect that I did expect Dunn to hit over .200. I expected he would do what Mark Reynolds is doing for the Orioles, which would be a disappointment if it were Dunn doing it for the Sox. I didn't expect Dunn to hit 30 home runs this year, though. (I didn't type that into the preseason thread predicting Dunn's home run totals because I was being personally attacked for posting in other threads that I thought signing Dunn was a huge mistake. I continue to be questioned about my position, and when I defend myself, I am attacked for "patting myself on the back," gloating about being right about Dunn, which is not what I am doing.)
It's bad enough to take an unpopular stance, but even worse when it turns out you were right all along.

gosox41
08-29-2011, 10:42 PM
Dunn has hit in the sixth, seventh and eighth spot in the order 26 times. He has hit fourth 23 times (games in which the Sox are 11-12). Konerko has hit fourth in at least 60 more games than Dunn has. Dunn has only hit fourth once since the first week of August. Quentin has hit fourth twice as many times in August as Dunn has, and Quentin hasn't even played in more than a week.

If you're not watching, "continuing to hit Dunn fourth" might be an issue.


What about 5th? Andf I'm not being sarcastic. How many times has he hit there?


Bob

fram40
08-29-2011, 10:45 PM
What about 5th? Andf I'm not being sarcastic. How many times has he hit there?


Bob

per baseball-reference.com, Dunn has batted fifth in 20 games

gosox41
08-29-2011, 10:51 PM
per baseball-reference.com, Dunn has batted fifth in 20 games


Thanks for the info. Is there anything the Internet can't do?:D:

doublem23
08-29-2011, 10:52 PM
If Ozzie goes and Kenny stays, Kenny will not listen to the new manager; and vice versa. The remaining member of this duo will feed that they were right, the other was wrong, and nothing will improve.

Yeah that's not necessarily true.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 10:55 PM
It's bad enough to take an unpopular stance, but even worse when it turns out you were right all along.

Well the best way to handle that situation is to be totally condescending about it.

Anybody who ****ing pretends to dislike the Sox getting the best FA on the market, a guy who has steadily hit 40 HR per season and had an OPS of .900 for 10 years is either a total liar or completely out of their mind.

fram40
08-29-2011, 10:56 PM
Well the best way to handle that situation is to be totally condescending about it.

Anybody who ****ing pretends to dislike the Sox getting the best FA on the market, a guy who has steadily hit 40 HR per season and had an OPS of .900 for 10 years is either a total liar or completely out of their mind.

perhaps - but also right on the ball this time. this year.

TDog
08-29-2011, 10:58 PM
What about 5th? Andf I'm not being sarcastic. How many times has he hit there?


Bob

Dunn started the season hitting third, which WSI consensus seemed to have no problem with. He has hit third 37 times. He has since moved around the order, hitting fourth 23 times and fifth 20 times.

It should be noted that when Dunn wasn't in the starting lineup against some lefties early in the season, there were charges that Guillen was an idiot for not playing him.

It also should be noted that for much of the season, certianly most of April, there weren't many hitters who looked that much better in the RBI spots in the batting order. You have Konerko and Quentin, and except for Konerko, most hitters have worked through slumps. Pierzynski hasn't had a bad offensive year, but even Ramirez is among the six hitters who have hit cleanup this year, and that is something I doubt anyone would have predicted.

SI1020
08-29-2011, 11:08 PM
Well the best way to handle that situation is to be totally condescending about it.

Anybody who ****ing pretends to dislike the Sox getting the best FA on the market, a guy who has steadily hit 40 HR per season and had an OPS of .900 for 10 years is either a total liar or completely out of their mind. That's the way you see it. The way I see it is two posters here were right that the Dunn signing was a mistake and both were savaged for it.

gosox41
08-29-2011, 11:10 PM
Well the best way to handle that situation is to be totally condescending about it.

Anybody who ****ing pretends to dislike the Sox getting the best FA on the market, a guy who has steadily hit 40 HR per season and had an OPS of .900 for 10 years is either a total liar or completely out of their mind.


All we have to do is see the posts of the signing. If an individual felt so strongly about a move--good or bad-- they should have posted their feelings, reasons, and predictions.


Bob

balke
08-29-2011, 11:11 PM
Well the best way to handle that situation is to be totally condescending about it.

Anybody who ****ing pretends to dislike the Sox getting the best FA on the market, a guy who has steadily hit 40 HR per season and had an OPS of .900 for 10 years is either a total liar or completely out of their mind.

I didn't like it but I don't think I was "right all along". Dunn is always the guy with the most homeruns on the worst team. He was coming to a team that has a manger that I feared would play him in the field a lot.

He doesn't make contact and was coming off a huge year for him avg.-wise which means he could easily be due to slump. The Sox had Viciedo and didn't need to buy a DH IMO.

When he came as a DH only - and the Sox resigned pk - I was satisfied. Originally there was talk of getting Dunn and moving on from PK from some people.

Doesn't make me right or crazy. Some people like HRs. Some people like ballplayers.

gosox41
08-29-2011, 11:14 PM
Dunn started the season hitting third, which WSI consensus seemed to have no problem with. He has hit third 37 times. He has since moved around the order, hitting fourth 23 times and fifth 20 times.

It should be noted that when Dunn wasn't in the starting lineup against some lefties early in the season, there were charges that Guillen was an idiot for not playing him.

It also should be noted that for much of the season, certianly most of April, there weren't many hitters who looked that much better in the RBI spots in the batting order. You have Konerko and Quentin, and except for Konerko, most hitters have worked through slumps. Pierzynski hasn't had a bad offensive year, but even Ramirez is among the six hitters who have hit cleanup this year, and that is something I doubt anyone would have predicted.

Early in the year, I don't think anyone expected Dunn's slump to drag out until September. My attitude through the ASB was to play him to try to hit his way out of it, but demote him in the order until he does. Dunn batting against a left today after being 3-81 is different then sitting Dunn on April 15th against a lefty.

As the seaon progressed we learned two things about the 2011 Adam Dunn-He can't hit lefties and he should be benched or bat 8th.

Now going into next year, I think you have to give him a chance again as an everyday DH (but bat him lower.) The reality is he's getting paid big bucks, and also there's enough history there to think he'll rebound.

This sason so messed up his mind and is a wash.


Bob

kufram
08-30-2011, 06:33 AM
I didn't like it but I don't think I was "right all along". Dunn is always the guy with the most homeruns on the worst team. He was coming to a team that has a manger that I feared would play him in the field a lot.

He doesn't make contact and was coming off a huge year for him avg.-wise which means he could easily be due to slump. The Sox had Viciedo and didn't need to buy a DH IMO.

When he came as a DH only - and the Sox resigned pk - I was satisfied. Originally there was talk of getting Dunn and moving on from PK from some people.

Doesn't make me right or crazy. Some people like HRs. Some people like ballplayers.

I am one of those. It isn't that I didn't like Dunn.. I don't particularly like the Dunn model of DH. I like players. We've tried two extremes of DH and both failed. I'd like a player more like PK as a DH. Someone that doesn't only hit to one field and can at least play one decent field position.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 07:04 AM
I am one of those. It isn't that I didn't like Dunn.. I don't particularly like the Dunn model of DH. I like players. We've tried two extremes of DH and both failed. I'd like a player more like PK as a DH. Someone that doesn't only hit to one field and can at least play one decent field position.

Really, Dunn is just as versatile a player as Konerko.

DonnieDarko
08-30-2011, 07:31 AM
Really, Dunn is just as versatile a player as Konerko.

To be fair, at least Konerko can actually use his glove.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 07:34 AM
To be fair, at least Konerko can actually use his glove.

I mean, I'm not suggesting Dunn is as good a 1B as Konerko is, but he can lumber out there and play the position, unlike Thome for instance. It's not like Konerko's can move around the field. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Dunn wasn't hitting like a utility infielder from the '30s.

DonnieDarko
08-30-2011, 07:40 AM
I mean, I'm not suggesting Dunn is as good a 1B as Konerko is, but he can lumber out there and play the position, unlike Thome for instance. It's not like Konerko's can move around the field. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Dunn wasn't hitting like a utility infielder from the '30s.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. Fair enough point, then.

balke
08-30-2011, 09:16 AM
I mean, I'm not suggesting Dunn is as good a 1B as Konerko is, but he can lumber out there and play the position, unlike Thome for instance. It's not like Konerko's can move around the field. We wouldn't be having this discussion if Dunn wasn't hitting like a utility infielder from the '30s.

We would be having this discussion if Dunn were the everyday 1Bman however. For instance - why pay him to play 1B when you could get a guy like Pena for less money? Dunn is pitiful at 1B. Thus why Lillibridge is out there - that is not bat related.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 09:52 AM
We would be having this discussion if Dunn were the everyday 1Bman however. For instance - why pay him to play 1B when you could get a guy like Pena for less money? Dunn is pitiful at 1B. Thus why Lillibridge is out there - that is not bat related.

Totally disagree, if Dunn were having his usual season of 40-ish HR and a .900-ish OPS, he would definitely have taken the majority of games at 1B during Paul's injury. There's a reason that there's a long line of aging stars that get moved to 1B when they are no longer able to play their usual positions, it's a place that's pretty easy to pick up and you can readily hide poor defenders there. Sure, it helps to have a guy like Derrek Lee or Mark Teixeira who can throw a little leather around the bag, as well, but those guys are primarily 1B because they mash.

kufram
08-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Of course Dunn can lumber out there and stop something hit straight at him and I'm aware that first base is where you hide aging hitters.... I meant actually PLAY the field though, you know?.... not just take up space. PK's range isn't great but he digs every throw out.

I meant more of the type of hitter that PK is. Dunn and Thome can only hit one way. I like hitters that can use the whole park.

balke
08-30-2011, 11:20 AM
Totally disagree, if Dunn were having his usual season of 40-ish HR and a .900-ish OPS, he would definitely have taken the majority of games at 1B during Paul's injury. There's a reason that there's a long line of aging stars that get moved to 1B when they are no longer able to play their usual positions, it's a place that's pretty easy to pick up and you can readily hide poor defenders there. Sure, it helps to have a guy like Derrek Lee or Mark Teixeira who can throw a little leather around the bag, as well, but those guys are primarily 1B because they mash.

Agree to disagree. Dunn's glove is bad enough that he makes your 3Bman and SS look bad. If the ball is off target - its at the wall. You could sacrifice 10 hrs at 1B with someone else and save yourself 20+ bad plays and errors.

Yes he can play a good backup role for emergency purposes - but to start the season with him as full time 1B means you don't want to win at the game of baseball.

Tragg
08-30-2011, 11:26 AM
Really, Dunn is just as versatile a player as Konerko.

More in a way because he can play RF.
He'll be a decent bench player next year (if he can improve to even just mediocre levels). Rios too. Expensive bench players, but they'll do the job.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 11:43 AM
Agree to disagree. Dunn's glove is bad enough that he makes your 3Bman and SS look bad. If the ball is off target - its at the wall. You could sacrifice 10 hrs at 1B with someone else and save yourself 20+ bad plays and errors.

Yes he can play a good backup role for emergency purposes - but to start the season with him as full time 1B means you don't want to win at the game of baseball.

That certainly explains how the Phillies can start a statue at 1B and still have the best record in all of baseball

kittle42
08-30-2011, 11:53 AM
That certainly explains how the Phillies can start a statue at 1B and still have the best record in all of baseball

And the Brewers, too. But nevermind those examples. First base is never where teams put guys who absolutely can't field. Those guys lose you double-digit games a year.

balke
08-30-2011, 12:18 PM
That certainly explains how the Phillies can start a statue at 1B and still have the best record in all of baseball

Are the Sox a national league team now with no DH? That statue probably catches balls better than Dunn regardless. I understand no mobility - Dunn has no hands. But there's only like 1000 times a year the ball gets thrown to a 1Bman though... so no big deal I guess.

asindc
08-30-2011, 12:45 PM
Dunn is a much worse 1B than Howard or Fielder, and it is not even close. The only reason Dunn resisted being a DH up to this point is because they generally make less money for the same offensive production of a player playing a field position.

Frontman
08-30-2011, 03:36 PM
Yeah that's not necessarily true.

Neither man comes across as being able to get out of the way of their own ego. While we may never know unless the situation arises, does either seem to be willing to admit fault?

Kenny is just as arrogant (if not more so) than Ozzie, given every year Kenny goes after all of us fans for not "coming out and supporting the team." He does that every year near the trading deadline; and annoys me more than Ozzie's rants against the fans.

TDog
08-30-2011, 03:43 PM
Totally disagree, if Dunn were having his usual season of 40-ish HR and a .900-ish OPS, he would definitely have taken the majority of games at 1B during Paul's injury. There's a reason that there's a long line of aging stars that get moved to 1B when they are no longer able to play their usual positions, it's a place that's pretty easy to pick up and you can readily hide poor defenders there. Sure, it helps to have a guy like Derrek Lee or Mark Teixeira who can throw a little leather around the bag, as well, but those guys are primarily 1B because they mash.

For the most part, I agree with you. A few weeks ago, I was talking with someone about Thome, and he said Thome "is allergic to his glove," a turn of phrase I wish I could take credit for. Thome is beyond playing in the field. Dunn plays in the field, and has pretty much done so his entire career before he signed his huge free-agent contract. But Dunn doesn't play defense well. He would make a better outfielder than Konerko, but Konerko is an excellent first baseman. He has worked very hard to become one, even if he ended up there because he was too good a hitter not to be in the lineup.

The only point with which I really disagree is the suggestion that fans wouldn't be complaining about Dunn in the field if he were hitting .240 and on pace to hit 40 home runs and strike out more than 200 times. I think they would be complaining about both his defense and his offense.

doublem23
08-30-2011, 04:21 PM
The only point with which I really disagree is the suggestion that fans wouldn't be complaining about Dunn in the field if he were hitting .240 and on pace to hit 40 home runs and strike out more than 200 times. I think they would be complaining about both his defense and his offense.

Only from the lunatics

doublem23
08-30-2011, 04:23 PM
Kenny is just as arrogant (if not more so) than Ozzie, given every year Kenny goes after all of us fans for not "coming out and supporting the team." He does that every year near the trading deadline; and annoys me more than Ozzie's rants against the fans.

Yeah, I don't remember Kenny ever saying anything like that. In fact this year, when discussing the team's finances, he admitted the fault was the team's in that, and this is a direct quote, "we haven't earned our fans' support."

asindc
08-30-2011, 04:29 PM
Yeah, I don't remember Kenny ever saying anything like that. In fact this year, when discussing the team's finances, he admitted the fault was the team's in that, and this is a direct quote, "we haven't earned our fans' support."

Shhh, you're disrupting the use of a well-worn false narrative.

Lip Man 1
08-30-2011, 04:39 PM
Kenny has in fact made comments along those lines in years past. He also in fact has not done so this year.

Lip

Frontman
08-30-2011, 05:44 PM
Yeah, I don't remember Kenny ever saying anything like that. In fact this year, when discussing the team's finances, he admitted the fault was the team's in that, and this is a direct quote, "we haven't earned our fans' support."

In the same interview, he did say

"That gets us back to hopefully even [financially] before the break," Williams said. "Then we can optimistically look beyond July 31 and [I'm] hopeful that we can bring in even more fans, which would thereby give me the resources to go out and do some things."

Again, blaming attendance for not being able to make moves. This year, he did blame the play of the team (as well as the bad weather early in the season) on low attendance. But to keep on beating that drum of "if we had more paying customers...." wears thin. You can only do that so many times (much like going off on the fan base with "I make the goddam lineup" and "they get paid to talk" like Ozzie does.) After a while, fans no longer want to hear from you.

Right now, I could care less to hear from either Ozzie or Kenny. They are both at fault for this hot garbage/slim hope mess of a season we've had as fans.

asindc
08-30-2011, 05:54 PM
In the same interview, he did say

"That gets us back to hopefully even [financially] before the break," Williams said. "Then we can optimistically look beyond July 31 and [I'm] hopeful that we can bring in even more fans, which would thereby give me the resources to go out and do some things."

Again, blaming attendance for not being able to make moves. This year, he did blame the play of the team (as well as the bad weather early in the season) on low attendance. But to keep on beating that drum of "if we had more paying customers...." wears thin. You can only do that so many times (much like going off on the fan base with "I make the goddam lineup" and "they get paid to talk" like Ozzie does.) After a while, fans no longer want to hear from you.

Right now, I could care less to hear from either Ozzie or Kenny. They are both at fault for this hot garbage/slim hope mess of a season we've had as fans.

That is not even close to the same thing as "goes after all of us fans," the statement that doub and I am commenting on. By the way, what makes you think a different GM would not tie attendance revenue to the ability to raise roster salaries?

Frontman
08-30-2011, 06:21 PM
That is not even close to the same thing as "goes after all of us fans," the statement that doub and I am commenting on. By the way, what makes you think a different GM would not tie attendance revenue to the ability to raise roster salaries?

My point is that Kenny always uses attendance as an excuse/crutch. It gets old, especially when its 3 years running now as the reason the team couldn't be put together properly.

When you hear it enough times, you get the sense of being badgered/being "gone after" as a fan. It might not be as vicious or as cruel as Ozzie's rants on fans, but its still a lousy thing to keep on bashing about a fans head (and pocketbook.)

Yes, the fair weather fans will not be there when the team is doing poorly. But some of us die hard fans aren't going out not just because the team's playing poorly, but it just isn't worth throwing hard earned money at a team that doesn't seem to want to do anything with said hard earned money.

SI1020
08-30-2011, 06:24 PM
That is not even close to the same thing as "goes after all of us fans," the statement that doub and I am commenting on. By the way, what makes you think a different GM would not tie attendance revenue to the ability to raise roster salaries? It is a White Sox management tradition to beat up on the fan base. Some times subtly, sometimes not.

TDog
08-30-2011, 07:49 PM
Only from the lunatics

Watching a big RBI man strike out time and time again, especially with runners in scoring position, especially with runners at third and less than two out, would breed lunacy.

Noneck
08-30-2011, 07:58 PM
My point is that Kenny always uses attendance as an excuse/crutch. It gets old, especially when its 3 years running now as the reason the team couldn't be put together properly.



Maybe you dont realize this but Williams is a spokesperson for Sox ownership. If ownership wants this message to be conveyed, it will be conveyed by any subsequent GM. Your beef is pointed at the wrong person, dont shoot the messenger.

asindc
08-30-2011, 08:02 PM
Maybe you dont realize this but Williams is a spokesperson for Sox ownership. If ownership wants this message to be conveyed, it will be conveyed by any subsequent GM. Your beef is pointed at the wrong person, dont shot the messenger.

This is the point I was making. In fact, it is why I asked "What makes [anyone] think a different GM would not tie attendance revenue to the ability to raise roster salaries?"

Noneck
08-30-2011, 08:07 PM
This is the point I was making. In fact, it is why I asked "What makes [anyone] think a different GM would not tie attendance revenue to the ability to raise roster salaries?"


I know but my post was just a another means to hopefully make this guy realize where and to who his anger should be pointed.

balke
08-30-2011, 09:05 PM
Watching a big RBI man strike out time and time again, especially with runners in scoring position, especially with runners at third and less than two out, would breed lunacy.

As those lunatics watch him hit .160 with less power than lillibridge in real life - not the fake reality were some nutjob would play him at 1b instead of DH. Outside of thome - is there a guy who would be any worse at 1B?

Frontman
08-30-2011, 11:10 PM
I know but my post was just a another means to hopefully make this guy realize where and to who his anger should be pointed.

Excuse me, but "this guy" does have a screen name here at WSI, thankyouverymuch.

And I can be annoyed/angry with the messenger just as well as the message itself. Yes, the organization wants to get the word out that they need support to get money to make moves. But there is a right way and a wrong way of making that point.

How Kenny ALWAYS has gone about it comes across as rude. And while I might never be the biggest Frank Thomas fan; Kenny's handling of that situation is exactly the arrogance I'm talking about.

The man can't talk to anyone without talking down to them.

Noneck
08-30-2011, 11:45 PM
And I can be annoyed/angry with the messenger just as well as the message itself. Yes, the organization wants to get the word out that they need support to get money to make moves. But there is a right way and a wrong way of making that point.



Your previous posts showed that your beef was with the message not how the message was expressed. If this message has been expressed on 3 different occasions according to you, then ownership must agree with how it is being expressed.

Frontman
08-31-2011, 06:19 PM
Your previous posts showed that your beef was with the message not how the message was expressed. If this message has been expressed on 3 different occasions according to you, then ownership must agree with how it is being expressed.

And again, given the arrogance of the messenger; (which he once again had to be a jerk with yesterday's "my message is the same" remark) you can get annoyed having it brought up time and time again by him.

My point is that if one goes, both have to go, period.