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View Full Version : *Official* "Dayan, Tyler Bash M's for Sweep" 8/28 Postgamer


MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-28-2011, 06:57 PM
That'll do, kids. That'll do.

Also, once again we're over .500. Let's stay up there.

Over By There
08-28-2011, 06:59 PM
The kids can play.

Bring back Wimpy - Sox 5-1 when in the booth this year.

blandman
08-28-2011, 06:59 PM
A taste of the next core, perhaps.

Over .500 and in second place, with as many games against the Tigers left as we are out of it.

But this team isn't competing.

Three at home with the Twins, who are reeling. This thing could get real interesting real fast.

ChicagoG19
08-28-2011, 06:59 PM
:sweep:sweep:sweep

Sox
08-28-2011, 06:59 PM
:soxwin:

Sox
08-28-2011, 07:00 PM
The kids can play.

Bring back Wimpy - Sox 5-1 when in the booth this year.


I'm on board with that!!!!! :cool:

shingo10
08-28-2011, 07:01 PM
2 stress free games in a row. Wonderful.

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2011, 07:03 PM
6 games back sounds so much better than 7 when there are only 31 games left.

October26
08-28-2011, 07:04 PM
Where's my broom? SOX SWEEP!!! Oh yeah --> :bliss:

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:05 PM
6 games back sounds so much better than 7 when there are only 31 games left.

We've still got six left with the Tigers, three this week.

GlassSox
08-28-2011, 07:06 PM
Yes that was fun to watch. Welcome up Dayan and the grand slam by Tyler was great. Good starting pitching again.

34rancher
08-28-2011, 07:06 PM
Good thing dayan's bat has been taken up by Dunn. Great game today boys. Looked like you were having fun.

chisoxfanatic
08-28-2011, 07:07 PM
We've still got six left with the Tigers, three this week.
Don't forget we also have 2 games in hand on Detroit. Destiny is still within our control, but we really have got to haul ass the rest of the way here. It is imperative to go no less than 5-1 against the Tigers the rest of the way. Sweeping them this weekend is pretty much a must.

Aesero
08-28-2011, 07:10 PM
It's a shame there has been no place to play Dayan all season long. :rolleyes:

Bobotty13
08-28-2011, 07:10 PM
First grand slam by the Sox this year. Better late than never. 24-7 in the next 31 should do it.

DumpJerry
08-28-2011, 07:11 PM
How can the Sox be in second place? Ozzie and Kenny are still employed by the team.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-28-2011, 07:13 PM
How can the Sox be in second place? Ozzie and Kenny are still employed by the team.

Because that's how bad the division is?

SoxSpeed22
08-28-2011, 07:13 PM
First grand slam by the Sox this year. Better late than never. 24-7 in the next 31 should do it.I like the way you think. Keep playing the young guys.

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:15 PM
It's a shame there has been no place to play Dayan all season long. :rolleyes:

He's not ready. Unless you want to make him DH, essentially putting Dunn on the bench for four years.

He's here because of injury, plain and simple. He doesn't field any position well enough yet. Kudos to the Sox for sticking him down there longer despite fans clamoring. It's too bad they had to bring him up too early. Odds are now he's here to stay now because those same fans will clamor for him louder, and our defense will struggle for years because of it.

Domeshot17
08-28-2011, 07:16 PM
How can the Sox be in second place? Ozzie and Kenny are still employed by the team.

Are we really celebrating being 6 out and in 2nd place??? Seriously. Second Place is just the first loser. Nothing more.

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Because that's how bad the division is?

How are we above .500 then? Kenny and Ozzie are terrible, remember?

Oh that's right. Now we're winning despite them. Just like we won despite Ozzie in 2005.

These complaints are getting tiring.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2011, 07:16 PM
Nice...you just wonder 'what if' they brought the kid up earlier in the season (although one game does not a season make)

Nice to be back among the living (over the .500 mark).

16 more wins for a winning season.

Also Gonzo has a story at the Tribune web site where apparently Ozzie has spoken with Dunn about "reduced" playing time for him the rest of the season.....better late than never...I guess. :rolleyes:

Lip

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:17 PM
Are we really celebrating being 6 out and in 2nd place??? Seriously. Second Place is just the first loser. Nothing more.

We're in it. Very much. We've got 6 head to head match-ups and a whole month of baseball. Maybe you don't think that's competing. Feel free to return to your white flag waiving and cry about it some more.

Tragg
08-28-2011, 07:20 PM
How are we above .500 then? Kenny and Ozzie are terrible, remember?

Oh that's right. Now we're winning despite them. Just like we won despite Ozzie in 2005.

These complaints are getting tiring.
We're 1 above .500 with a $125 Million payroll.

No one was complaining anyway.

Domeshot17
08-28-2011, 07:20 PM
We're in it. Very much. We've got 6 head to head match-ups and a whole month of baseball. Maybe you don't think that's competing. Feel free to return to your white flag waiving and cry about it some more.


We arent in it. We just aren't out of it. I dont get how people can defend Ozzie after this dog**** season. We should be running away with it.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2011, 07:24 PM
Dome:

I have to agree with your thoughts. Ozzie has made many, many strange and bizarre decisions this year that had to have cost this team some games all in the name of "match-up's"...

Lip

BigHurt3515
08-28-2011, 07:25 PM
He's not ready. Unless you want to make him DH, essentially putting Dunn on the bench for four years.

He's here because of injury, plain and simple. He doesn't field any position well enough yet. Kudos to the Sox for sticking him down there longer despite fans clamoring. It's too bad they had to bring him up too early. Odds are now he's here to stay now because those same fans will clamor for him louder, and our defense will struggle for years because of it.

Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooo

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:27 PM
We arent in it. We just aren't out of it. I dont get how people can defend Ozzie after this dog**** season. We should be running away with it.

Two of our highest paid players, players the team was essentially built around, had epically bad seasons, and Ozzie's gotten this much out of the team. Maybe you think any manager could "run away with it" despite that. I can't think of any manager that would. To "run away with it"...that's what, at least a 15 game swing. You think another manager would get us 15 more victories up to this point with the two of the three hitters the lineup was built around hitting around the mendoza line but slugging like a slap hitter? Because if you do, I want some of what you're smoking.

It would have been easier if they were injured. You can't just bench guys on long term deals that early in a year. If you think you can, once again, please pass some my way.

Aesero
08-28-2011, 07:28 PM
He's not ready. Unless you want to make him DH, essentially putting Dunn on the bench for four years.

He's here because of injury, plain and simple. He doesn't field any position well enough yet. Kudos to the Sox for sticking him down there longer despite fans clamoring. It's too bad they had to bring him up too early. Odds are now he's here to stay now because those same fans will clamor for him louder, and our defense will struggle for years because of it.

Can't tell if this is serious or you missed the teal button.

Lip Man 1
08-28-2011, 07:29 PM
Considering according to the Tribune, Ozzie has already talked with Dunn and strongly hinted his playing time is going to be cut the rest of the season, it sounds like the mechnism has started to see if the reset button can be pushed next February or moving him to a N.L. team.

This should have been done in June but it is what it is. At least someone in the organization has finally had enough of Mr. Dunn for this year at least. Now whether Ozzie finally got the memo Kenny told the media about in late July or if someone (maybe JR) finally ordered him to bench him, I have no idea.

I guess it's even possible Ozzie feels there's a chance he's out the door after the season and is trying to pull out all the stops the final month.

Lip

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:30 PM
Booooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooo

That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's very few things I agree with Daver on, but the way we just promote in this system based solely on hitting is a large reason we've come up short the last couple of years.

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:31 PM
Can't tell if this is serious or you missed the teal button.

Sorry, you have to put teal. Too many people here actually feel like that.

beasly213
08-28-2011, 07:34 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

asindc
08-28-2011, 07:35 PM
Are we really celebrating being 6 out and in 2nd place??? Seriously. Second Place is just the first loser. Nothing more.

I'm not celebrating myself, but I am pleased that we are not 11 under .500 and we still have a decent chance to win the division.

billyvsox
08-28-2011, 07:36 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

That same AWFUL Seattle team that won 3 of 4 at Cleveland and pounded them before we played them. Any road sweep is good!!!

Time to exercise the remaining Twins demon's and head to the motor city on a 6 game roll

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:36 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

:dtroll:

We picked up a sweep, picked up a game this weekend because Detroit lost to an AWFUL Minnesota team (who we get to play next!), and we have 6 games left with Detroit.

asindc
08-28-2011, 07:38 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

You're not excited about sweeping Seattle (or any other team, for that matter)?

JB98
08-28-2011, 07:40 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

I'm excited to see Viciedo finally get an opportunity. His recall was overdue.

As far as the team's prospects, I'm with you. These guys need a miracle to make the playoffs, and I don't expect miracles.

Hopefully they can finish strong and find out some things about the younger players in the process.

Jollyroger2
08-28-2011, 07:41 PM
The Sox swept an AWFUL Seattle team. Meanwhile Detroit is rolling despite the loss today. Sorry if I'm not excited about this.

It's nice to get a sweep, but I agree. Yawn. Seattle's horrible, and even if they had just swept the Yankees I still wouldn't be thrilled. The Sox have done this all year, win a few, look halfway decent, then suck for several games to fall back below .500, etc. It's like clockwork.

johnnyg83
08-28-2011, 07:44 PM
I'm taking some limited comfort in the fact that today's roster was young ... and Morel, Flowers, De Aza, Dayan (limited I know) recent performances give me some hope for the future.

I was despondent about our prospects 2 months ago.

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm taking some limited comfort in the fact that today's roster was young ... and Morel, Flowers, De Aza, Dayan (limited I know) recent performances give me some hope for the future.

I was despondent about our prospects 2 months ago.

Point of clarification - De Aza is NOT a prospect. He is 27 years old and in likely in the prime of his career, whatever that means for him.

Tragg
08-28-2011, 07:52 PM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's very few things I agree with Daver on, but the way we just promote in this system based solely on hitting is a large reason we've come up short the last couple of years.
Beckham and Morel field their positions fine...better than fine. They don't hit.

I think the Sox rush some, but because of need.

soxfan1965
08-28-2011, 07:52 PM
A question/poll just for fun, if the unthinkable and improbable (because Detroit's Sept schedule looks relatively easy) happens, the White Sox winning the division and getting into the playoffs. Who gets left off the roster?

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:56 PM
Beckham and Morel field their positions fine...better than fine. They don't hit.

I think the Sox rush some, but because of need.

When Morel was drafted, he was already a plus defender. But he's never going to hit. The idea was he'd be a black hole for a year or two because we'd get offense from other spots. Didn't happen.

Beckham learned defense up here. He was not ready when he was initially called up, and was rougher at third last year than a lot of people want to remember.

edit: heck, it seems to be a middle infield thing to teach them up here. Getz, TCM, Beckham...they were all rough mentally on defense when the got here. Well...I guess at least Getz was never going to get better.

blandman
08-28-2011, 07:56 PM
A question/poll just for fun, if the unthinkable and improbable (because Detroit's Sept schedule looks relatively easy) happens, the White Sox winning the division and getting into the playoffs. Who gets left off the roster?

I vote Dunn and Rios.

hawkjt
08-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Good day for the Sox. Picked up a game against Detroit and Cleveland,and the youngsters give the offense a boost.

Sox are 5 back in the loss column.
Liriano is out,so the Twins have Blackburn, and who else starting? Pavano went on Saturday and Duensing today. That leaves a couple of young guys I guess.
Sox will go with MB,Stewart and Jake.
Then in Detroit, it will be:
Danks vs Penny
Floyd vs Scherzer
MB vs Fister.

Sox need to pick up at least a couple in the loss column and get it to three or less back by next Sunday. Then the Sox go to minny for 4 and come home for 3 vs Tigers and Tribe. Play well the next 16 games,and we got a race for the last two weeks. That would be fun.

TDog
08-28-2011, 07:59 PM
It's a shame there has been no place to play Dayan all season long. :rolleyes:

Adam Dunn hit very well in his first game with the White Sox, too.

I like Viciedo as a hitter. I have been a Viciedo fan since I watched him take batting practice last year. But one game facing a pitcher with a fast ball that didn't seem to break 90 after he developed his hitting rhythm in AAA doesn't tell you he was ready to have a great offensive season in the majors in 2011. I don't believe the Sox really gain anything if Viciedo replaces Quentin. Not in the short term at least.

Still, Viciedo impressed today. And getting off to a good start will take some of the pressure off. I really that the hitters who have come up this year have come in and contributed. De Aza, of course, hit a home run in his first game, which ended up winning it. (Rios has been a better hitter since De Aza came up, and I don't think that is coincidental.) Flowers didn't make such an immediate impact, but it didn't take him long to start hitting.

Today's win started with Floyd pitching great, at least until he seemed to run out of gas at the end. Today's win wasn't as pretty as Saturday's. But by the time the Mariners stared to Sox pitching, the game was out of reach.

It's nice to see the Sox ahead of the Indians again. After everything that has gone on this season, with the Indians running away with it early. Unfortunately, since that low point, the Sox have lost three more games to the Tigers.

LITTLE NELL
08-28-2011, 08:00 PM
We have not had a prolonged hot streak all year. Now is the time, we still can catch the Tigers. We have the best pitching and defense in the division and with some consistant hitting we can win this thing.

blandman
08-28-2011, 08:00 PM
Good day for the Sox. Picked up a game against Detroit and Cleveland,and the youngsters give the offense a boost.

Sox are 5 back in the loss column.
Liriano is out,so the Twins have Blackburn, and who else starting? Pavano went on Saturday and Duensing today. That leaves a couple of young guys I guess.
Sox will go with MB,Stewart and Jake.
Then in Detroit, it will be:
Danks vs Penny
Floyd vs Scherzer
MB vs Fister.

Sox need to pick up at least a couple in the loss column and get it to three or less back by next Sunday. Then the Sox go to minny for 4 and come home for 3 vs Tigers and Tribe. Play well the next 16 games,and we got a race for the last two weeks. That would be fun.

Let's just win all those games you talked about.

cws05champ
08-28-2011, 08:13 PM
Good day for the Sox. Picked up a game against Detroit and Cleveland,and the youngsters give the offense a boost.

Sox are 5 back in the loss column.
Liriano is out,so the Twins have Blackburn, and who else starting? Pavano went on Saturday and Duensing today. That leaves a couple of young guys I guess.
Sox will go with MB,Stewart and Jake.
Then in Detroit, it will be:
Danks vs Penny
Floyd vs Scherzer
MB vs Fister.

Sox need to pick up at least a couple in the loss column and get it to three or less back by next Sunday. Then the Sox go to minny for 4 and come home for 3 vs Tigers and Tribe. Play well the next 16 games,and we got a race for the last two weeks. That would be fun.
It would be great not to have to face Verlander....5-1 in this stretch and things may start to look up.

sox1970
08-28-2011, 08:14 PM
It would be great not to have to face Verlander....5-1 in this stretch and things may start to look up.

Verlander is starting Friday. I think Penny and Scherzer will follow.

cards press box
08-28-2011, 08:15 PM
I don't believe the Sox really gain anything if Viciedo replaces Quentin.

Hopefully, Quentin and A.J. Pierzynski return soon. Ozzie said today that Konerko might return to first base soon (http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110828&content_id=23870548&notebook_id=23870550&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws). All of that might mean that Viciedo takes at bats from Dunn and not anyone else. And for the remainder of 2011, that can only be good news. The Sox should wait until the offseason to try and get Dunn back where he was in the NL or deal him.

Anyway, the power from Viciedo and Flowers in today's game was really a shot in the arm for this club and its fanbase. Thanks to their home runs,

:winner

billyvsox
08-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Verlander is starting Friday. I think Penny and Scherzer will follow.

Dont think so. Verlander is scheduled Thursday vs. KC. It will be Penny , Scherzer and Fister.

We may miss him in Chicago too, unless the hold him back an off day to face us,

SI1020
08-28-2011, 08:31 PM
This is the happiest I've been after a Sox win since the blackout game. I'm not kidding. I've been down on the Sox future for quite some time but the energy, hunger and yes ability Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham showed today gives me some measure of hope. Maybe we won't have to go through a complete overhaul and with it a bunch of losing seasons after all. I'm going to keep my good mood and positive attitude at least until the next game.

sox1970
08-28-2011, 08:35 PM
Dont think so. Verlander is scheduled Thursday vs. KC. It will be Penny , Scherzer and Fister.

We may miss him in Chicago too, unless the hold him back an off day to face us,

Tigers are calling up Turner to start Thursday. Verlander is starting Friday to get an extra day and set up their rotation the rest of the month.

Sox are getting him twice.

voodoochile
08-28-2011, 08:36 PM
Second place.

Welcome back, Mr. Viciedo.

:soxwin:

:)

:supernana:

October26
08-28-2011, 08:37 PM
This is the happiest I've been after a Sox win since the blackout game. I'm not kidding. I've been down on the Sox future for quite some time but the energy, hunger and yes ability Viciedo, Flowers and Beckham showed today gives me some measure of hope. Maybe we won't have to go through a complete overhaul and with it a bunch of losing seasons after all. I'm going to keep my good mood and positive attitude at least until the next game.

:thumbsup: I am always happy when the Sox win. :D:

BainesHOF
08-28-2011, 08:42 PM
Another fine outing by Floyd. He's been excellent since the break. It would be a mistake to get rid of him.

The organization should be embarrassed that it took this long for Viciedo to be brought up. He looked great today. Nobody should be surprised by that.

No reason for De Aza to be on the bench and for Rios to be in the lineup. De Aza is a better hitter and defender than Rios. It was a bad joke that Rios was batting cleanup once again today. Boy, is Guillen bad.

Konerko continues to be a stud.

It was a wonderful TV broadcast today with Paciorek joining Hawk. It was breezy, enjoyable, fun and informative. In short, it was light years better than a Stone-Hawk broadcast.

SI1020
08-28-2011, 08:47 PM
Another fine outing by Floyd. He's been excellent since the break. It would be a mistake to get rid of him.

The organization should be embarrassed that it took this long for Viciedo to be brought up. He looked great today. Nobody should be surprised by that.

No reason for De Aza to be on the bench and for Rios to be in the lineup. De Aza is a better hitter and defender than Rios. It was a bad joke that Rios was batting cleanup once again today. Boy, is Guillen bad.

Konerko continues to be a stud.

It was a wonderful TV broadcast today with Paciorek joining Hawk. It was breezy, enjoyable, fun and informative. In short, it was light years better than a Stone-Hawk broadcast. I totally agree and in the interests of honesty I was not one supporting a call up for Viciedo since early this year.

DrCrawdad
08-28-2011, 09:00 PM
It's a shame there has been no place to play Dayan all season long. :rolleyes:

If Dayan had been in the lineup in place of Dunn the Sox would be in a much better place this season, closer to first or perhaps in first.

ZombieRob
08-28-2011, 09:00 PM
Adam Dunn hit very well in his first game with the White Sox, too.

I like Viciedo as a hitter. I have been a Viciedo fan since I watched him take batting practice last year. But one game facing a pitcher with a fast ball that didn't seem to break 90 after he developed his hitting rhythm in AAA doesn't tell you he was ready to have a great offensive season in the majors in 2011. I don't believe the Sox really gain anything if Viciedo replaces Quentin. Not in the short term at least.

Still, Viciedo impressed today. And getting off to a good start will take some of the pressure off. I really that the hitters who have come up this year have come in and contributed. De Aza, of course, hit a home run in his first game, which ended up winning it. (Rios has been a better hitter since De Aza came up, and I don't think that is coincidental.) Flowers didn't make such an immediate impact, but it didn't take him long to start hitting.

Today's win started with Floyd pitching great, at least until he seemed to run out of gas at the end. Today's win wasn't as pretty as Saturday's. But by the time the Mariners stared to Sox pitching, the game was out of reach.

It's nice to see the Sox ahead of the Indians again. After everything that has gone on this season, with the Indians running away with it early. Unfortunately, since that low point, the Sox have lost three more games to the Tigers.


To add to that, wait till the 100 yr old scouts figure out his hole in his swing and the exploit it. If and when he adjusts will be the telling tale about Dyan. I will enjoy the moment for at least a Day.

Woofer
08-28-2011, 09:03 PM
Well they are at least keeping my attention. It will be an interesting week. To paraphrase Elvis, It's Now or Never.

oldgrouch
08-28-2011, 09:16 PM
Yes that was fun to watch. Welcome up Dayan and the grand slam by Tyler was great. Good starting pitching again.

That ball Dayan hit left so fast Hawk couldn't even yell, "Stretch"!

Berkules
08-28-2011, 09:20 PM
This thread is rife with cautious optimism.

Soxman219
08-28-2011, 09:53 PM
Good day for the Sox. Picked up a game against Detroit and Cleveland,and the youngsters give the offense a boost.

Sox are 5 back in the loss column.
Liriano is out,so the Twins have Blackburn, and who else starting? Pavano went on Saturday and Duensing today. That leaves a couple of young guys I guess.
Sox will go with MB,Stewart and Jake.
Then in Detroit, it will be:
Danks vs Penny
Floyd vs Scherzer
MB vs Fister.

Sox need to pick up at least a couple in the loss column and get it to three or less back by next Sunday. Then the Sox go to minny for 4 and come home for 3 vs Tigers and Tribe. Play well the next 16 games,and we got a race for the last two weeks. That would be fun.

Still gotta face the Royals a few more times, I guarantee the Sox face Cy Chen again.

Hitmen77
08-28-2011, 10:31 PM
How can the Sox be in second place? Ozzie and Kenny are still employed by the team.

You have got to be joking! :thud:

doublem23
08-28-2011, 11:13 PM
How can the Sox be in second place? Ozzie and Kenny are still employed by the team.

We're in second place because we're lucky to be in the minor league division.

DumpJerry
08-28-2011, 11:14 PM
People just don't have a sense of humor.

doublem23
08-28-2011, 11:22 PM
People just don't have a sense of humor.

That was supposed to be a joke?

DumpJerry
08-28-2011, 11:28 PM
That was supposed to be a joke?
According to about 20 or so very persistent posters here, it is impossible for the Sox to win more than 10 or 12 games a year as long as Ozzie and Kenny are on the payroll.

Marqhead
08-28-2011, 11:58 PM
According to about 20 or so very persistent posters here, it is impossible for the Sox to win more than 10 or 12 games a year as long as Ozzie and Kenny are on the payroll.

Are you particularly proud of this team's 66-65 record?

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 12:02 AM
Are you particularly proud of this team's 66-65 record?
So, it's one extreme or another, huh? Good thing you weren't around in the 1970's. We learned how to just enjoy the game and if the Sox finished the season with more than 65 wins, it was a satisfactory season.

How do you get that I am "particularly proud" of the Sox' record from my making fun of the Ozzie/Kenny Haters Club?

Win or lose, I still have fun at the 'ole ballpark.

Harry Chappas
08-29-2011, 12:08 AM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's very few things I agree with Daver on, but the way we just promote in this system based solely on hitting is a large reason we've come up short the last couple of years.

Yeah, because keeping Viciedo down on farm is going to turn him into a plus defender. Teal implied.

Some players will just never be great fielders but can contribute offensively. Viciedo fits this description.

Brewski
08-29-2011, 12:14 AM
Some of you know what Ozzie is thinking.
Some of you know what Jerry is thinking.
Some of you know what Kenny is thinking.

I don't know, but I wish I did.

Truth is that opinion most loudly proclaimed and most vigorously defended.

Marqhead
08-29-2011, 12:32 AM
So, it's one extreme or another, huh? Good thing you weren't around in the 1970's. We learned how to just enjoy the game and if the Sox finished the season with more than 65 wins, it was a satisfactory season.

How do you get that I am "particularly proud" of the Sox' record from my making fun of the Ozzie/Kenny Haters Club?

Win or lose, I still have fun at the 'ole ballpark.

It's not one extreme or another, but I don't see 2nd place at 66-65 as any type of victory for KW or Ozzie.

And it is a good thing I wasn't around in the 70s, because while I too enjoy the ballpark every time I go, I get sick of watching dog**** baseball after a few months, let alone year after year.

If you can be facetious, so can I. Make fun of the ozzie and kenny haters all you want, because yes, many of them are over the top morons. But there's nothing wrong with demanding better results and more accountability from an organization you support with your time and money.

Great win for the Sox today. Sweep take 5 or 6 from the Tigers and maybe there will be cause for celebration.

hi im skot
08-29-2011, 12:40 AM
It's not one extreme or another, but I don't see 2nd place at 66-65 as any type of victory for KW or Ozzie.

And it is a good thing I wasn't around in the 70s, because while I too enjoy the ballpark every time I go, I get sick of watching dog**** baseball after a few months, let alone year after year.

If you can be facetious, so can I. Make fun of the ozzie and kenny haters all you want, because yes, many of them are over the top morons. But there's nothing wrong with demanding better results and more accountability from an organization you support with your time and money.

Great win for the Sox today. Sweep take 5 or 6 from the Tigers and maybe there will be cause for celebration.
http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq2u0cmb2s1qii6tmo1_500.gif

kittle42
08-29-2011, 12:47 AM
How are we above .500 then? Kenny and Ozzie are terrible, remember?

Can we put our above-.500 trophy next to the Cubs' attendance trophy in the Chicago Sports Hall of Fame? They mean just as much.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 12:49 AM
I'm not celebrating myself, but I am pleased that we are not 11 under .500 and we still have a decent chance to win the division.

In Chicago, that is sports success.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 12:49 AM
I respect Dump's ability to have fun at the ol' ballpark regardless of what the team is doing on the field.

As for me it's about winning, first...last...always. Everything else is of secondary importance at best.

Lip

kittle42
08-29-2011, 12:50 AM
Let's just win all those games you talked about.

Now there, we can agree!

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 01:06 AM
It's a shame there has been no place to play Dayan all season long. :rolleyes:

Nice...you just wonder 'what if' they brought the kid up earlier in the season (although one game does not a season make)

You're right, it's one game, but Dayan showed more pitch recognition than last year. He wasn't chasing like last year, even took a walk.

However, has it occurred that it is JUST POSSIBLE that he needed this year in the minors? That he would not have looked like this had he been brought up much earlier? That possibly, just possibly, they were aware of continued issues that needed to be worked on before he was ready for major-league pitching? Or did you expect them to announce what they were still working on with him, in order to do other teams' scouting for them?

One of the biggest complaints on WSI has been how the Sox ruin their prospects by rushing them to the majors. Viciedo was perhaps the rawest of the prospects they've had, and the most in need of minor-league seasoning. Yet what do we get? Complaints that he wasn't brought up fast enough. You can't have it both ways, folks.

TheOldRoman
08-29-2011, 01:19 AM
That's exactly what I'm talking about. There's very few things I agree with Daver on, but the way we just promote in this system based solely on hitting is a large reason we've come up short the last couple of years.Yeah, I don't get the people screaming all year about Dayan not coming up. Especially the ones who in one post say the team is horrible, untalented, and can't compete, but they clamor for Dayan in the next. The Sox have a hitting coach how destroys swings and eats children's souls. Why would you want Dayan subjected to that? I want him having as little contact with Walker as possible, especially since this bad season has increased the possibility Ozzie will get shipped to Florida and the team will move on from Walker. The Sox also have a history of rushing prospects up too fast. Beckham has failed in part because he was rushed and in larger part because of the reason above. When Viciedo was up last year, he took 2 walks in 106 PAs. The Sox told him to work on his walks and decrease his strikeouts this year. He did that, while hitting for more power (despite missing time and then struggling because of two wrist injuries). He also got time to play RF in the minors, where blunders aren't hurting the team. Seriously, Dayan's season in the minors was a huge success. He did much more for his career development than having him DH in the majors would have. You can work on things like taking more walks and decreasing strikeouts in the minors, but once a player gets to the majors he isn't going to dramatically improve in either. I would say leaving the 22 year old Viciedo in the minor is something a good organization does, while calling up a kid who isn't ready (Beckham in 2009) is something a desperate org does. I would have been pissed if the Sox hampered Dayan's growth by calling him up this year. I think he is 100% ready next year, but I felt he needed more time.

Marqhead
08-29-2011, 01:46 AM
The Sox have a hitting coach who destroys swings and eats children's souls.

Can I nominate just this sentence for post of the week?

The rest of your post I agree with, a little extra seasoning for Dayan in the minors should pay dividends when he starts playing full time.

PeteWard
08-29-2011, 02:14 AM
Verlander is starting Friday. I think Penny and Scherzer will follow.

Did they move him back to face the Sox? Yesterday ESPN had him going Thurs vs KC. Today it's fri. vs Sox. :angry:

PeteWard
08-29-2011, 02:17 AM
Still gotta face the Royals a few more times, I guarantee the Sox face Cy Chen again.


He killed the Indians today. :bandance:

PeteWard
08-29-2011, 02:27 AM
If, after the first Det series, the Sox are four or less out, then I would say they have a legitimate chance to win the division. They would then still probably need to sweep the second series in Chicago. Either way, it's is probably going to take .750 ball to win unless Detroit tanks in dramatic way -- something I am not writing off completely.

pudge
08-29-2011, 02:41 AM
If, after the first Det series, the Sox are four or less out, then I would say they have a legitimate chance to win the division. They would then still probably need to sweep the second series in Chicago. Either way, it's is probably going to take .750 ball to win unless Detroit tanks in dramatic way -- something I am not writing off completely.

Really, we just swept a team that could not hit its way out of a paper bag. I know the negativity gets old around here, but the sudden surge of optimism is utterly laughable. Six games out with just 30 games left is borderline miracle talk.

hawkjt
08-29-2011, 03:13 AM
Well, since Leyland is willing to drop Verlander from 6 to 5 starts the rest of the way to line him up vs the Sox,and to bring up a minor leaguer in Turner to pitch in his turn...Sox are going to have to do it the hard way...beat Verlander twice themselves. If they could do it even once,that means that Verlander only guarantees them 3 other good chances to win.
Sox have to do the dirty work themselves. Get hot with the bats,and beat the guy. His last 9 starts he has a ERA of 3.40, the 9 starts before that he was an ungodly ERA of .75 so, he is fadeing a bit down the stretch.

As far as 5 back in the loss column with 31 to play...miracle? Not really. Just beat the Tigers 5 of 6 and the Sox will need one less loss than the Tigers in the other 25 games to tie. Do-able? Yes. Easy ? no.

central44
08-29-2011, 03:50 AM
Well, since Leyland is willing to drop Verlander from 6 to 5 starts the rest of the way to line him up vs the Sox,and to bring up a minor leaguer in Turner to pitch in his turn...Sox are going to have to do it the hard way...beat Verlander twice themselves.

Personally, i'm not worried about Verlander. He's no Bruce Chen :D:


...also, i'm only half-kidding.

kufram
08-29-2011, 06:06 AM
I don't think anyone expects miracles. Miracles are to be prayed for. A long shot is where we stand right now and you can't expect a long shot, but it is perfectly reasonable to hope for one. Getting to the playoffs is against the odds right now and we need Detroit to lose more games than we do so I am realistic about our chances, but the point it is that there is still a chance. I choose to take any opportunity to hope for the best for this team this year because that is what I do as a fan of the White Sox. I don't care about who did what and when they did it and whether they should have listened to whomever before they did it.

I want to get to the playoffs. Period. I'll then take it from there, but IF we can get there we will have to be on a wave of momentum so I wouldn't rule out anything then.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 07:07 AM
Win or lose, I still have fun at the 'ole ballpark.

As do I, but when it's like $30 just to get in to the ol' ballpark, fun starts getting tied to quality.

For example, I was in the Quad Cities this weekend visiting a friend and we went to the River Bandits game yesterday. $8 for 3rd row seats. It was Low A ball so there were like 15 walks, 6 errors, etc. Still a great time.

russ99
08-29-2011, 07:15 AM
Tigers are calling up Turner to start Thursday. Verlander is starting Friday to get an extra day and set up their rotation the rest of the month.

Sox are getting him twice.

Verlander has a 2.38 ERA with a .190 BAA this year.

Against the Sox he has a 4.03 ERA and a .229 BAA. We handed him one of his 5 losses and had him on the hook for a second but couldn't seal the deal.

As dominant a pitcher Verlander is this year, we seem to at least have a shot against him.

DonnieDarko
08-29-2011, 07:31 AM
Wow, we're getting Verlander twice? I know that we usually have a good shot to win against the guy, but I still would rather not face a marque pitcher (hell, the guy who's probably going to win the AL Cy Young) in the middle of a pennant race...:(:

soxfanatlanta
08-29-2011, 07:37 AM
Man, do the Mariners suck.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 07:39 AM
Wow, we're getting Verlander twice? I know that we usually have a good shot to win against the guy, but I still would rather not face a marque pitcher (hell, the guy who's probably going to win the AL Cy Young) in the middle of a pennant race...:(:

:dunno:

He's gotta pitch, he may as well do it against a team that has a relatively OK track record against him.

DonnieDarko
08-29-2011, 07:43 AM
:dunno:

He's gotta pitch, he may as well do it against a team that has a relatively OK track record against him.

Silver Lining(tm)

kufram
08-29-2011, 07:48 AM
I'd actually rather we go up against a hard throwing, quality, known quantity, Cy Young candidate than a no name, soft tossing, good change-up guy we've never seen. I think we stand a better chance of winning

Chez
08-29-2011, 08:59 AM
We need to pick up two games in the standings this week.

SI1020
08-29-2011, 09:13 AM
Really, we just swept a team that could not hit its way out of a paper bag. I know the negativity gets old around here, but the sudden surge of optimism is utterly laughable. Six games out with just 30 games left is borderline miracle talk. I probably can't win. I'm in the get rid of Ozzie and Kenny camp, which some other posters hold in contempt. Nevertheless I was one of the most giddy after yesterday's win in Seattle. Not because I expect the team to make the playoffs. I don't. This is not a particularly good team. I was just to say the least happy to see energetic young players flashing some skills. This team is so leaden with unenthusiastic veterans stuck in their individual ruts. Guys who tried in their own ways to change the listless dugout culture in recent years were run out of town. If De Aza, Viciedo and Flowers can play and Beckham can rediscover his swing things look much better. With Lillibridge a versatile fill in and Morel improving then the future I dreaded might not be so bad after all.

October26
08-29-2011, 09:33 AM
So, it's one extreme or another, huh? Good thing you weren't around in the 1970's. We learned how to just enjoy the game and if the Sox finished the season with more than 65 wins, it was a satisfactory season.

How do you get that I am "particularly proud" of the Sox' record from my making fun of the Ozzie/Kenny Haters Club?

Win or lose, I still have fun at the 'ole ballpark.

+1. I also lived through the 70's when I fell in love with the White Sox. My dad taught me the intricacies of the game of baseball. Just yesterday, he & I were talking about the fact that if Viciedo continues to do well, Ozzie should move him up in the lineup ahead of Paulie to the 3rd slot. And I countered with: Why not bat Viciedo 4th or 5th, dad, in order to protect Paulie? We had great conversation. Yesterday's game was so relaxing to watch because the Sox offense+defense+pitching were all good. This is something that has not happened much this year.

We've also discussed the Ozzie situation and realize that whatever happens is out of our control. We remember how bad we felt when Ozzie left the Sox the first time; we believe Ozzie still loves the Sox and wants to win. However, we live in a time of high stress and tension. It seems like media outlets like facebook & twitter do more harm than good as Ozzie's persona comes out as that of a villian. And if Ozzie does leave after this year, the sky will not fall. The White Sox franchise has been around for 100+ years and no player or manager is bigger than the organization. We are very excited about the play we've seen from the young kids and actually laughed yesterday when we saw some fans here on WSI posting: the kids can play!

I do wonder what it would have been like to have WSI in the 1970's? Can you imagine?

Hitmen77
08-29-2011, 10:05 AM
It's not one extreme or another, but I don't see 2nd place at 66-65 as any type of victory for KW or Ozzie.

And it is a good thing I wasn't around in the 70s, because while I too enjoy the ballpark every time I go, I get sick of watching dog**** baseball after a few months, let alone year after year.

If you can be facetious, so can I. Make fun of the ozzie and kenny haters all you want, because yes, many of them are over the top morons. But there's nothing wrong with demanding better results and more accountability from an organization you support with your time and money.

Great win for the Sox today. Sweep take 5 or 6 from the Tigers and maybe there will be cause for celebration.

Post of the Week. :clap:

I really don't see having the 7th best record in the A.L. as a vindication for Kenny and Ozzie or proof that anyone who complains about the results they have gotten from a $125M payroll is clownishly wrong.

Yayyy! We're as good as Toronto and Cleveland!:party:

By the way, this is what it says on the home page of WSI:
Tied for 2nd is credit to weak A.L. Central rather than a Sox surge; STILL under .500. What could have been... depressing.
Yeah, the Sox are back over .500 after sweeping the hapless M's, but it's not just "over the top incessant dark clouds" who are unhappy with how this season is turning out.

blandman
08-29-2011, 10:08 AM
I probably can't win. I'm in the get rid of Ozzie and Kenny camp, which some other posters hold in contempt. Nevertheless I was one of the most giddy after yesterday's win in Seattle. Not because I expect the team to make the playoffs. I don't. This is not a particularly good team. I was just to say the least happy to see energetic young players flashing some skills. This team is so leaden with unenthusiastic veterans stuck in their individual ruts. Guys who tried in their own ways to change the listless dugout culture in recent years were run out of town. If De Aza, Viciedo and Flowers can play and Beckham can rediscover his swing things look much better. With Lillibridge a versatile fill in and Morel improving then the future I dreaded might not be so bad after all.

No, they don't hold it in contempt. I'd like to see a change, but ONLY if it's a true rebuilding. Roster, minors, 5 years of sucking to bring a championship team here. Seemingly everyone who is calling for their heads would never accept that. The fact of the matter is, for what those fans are willing to accept (winning on the fly only), Kenny and Ozzie are doing an extremely good job.

blandman
08-29-2011, 10:11 AM
Yeah, I don't get the people screaming all year about Dayan not coming up. Especially the ones who in one post say the team is horrible, untalented, and can't compete, but they clamor for Dayan in the next. The Sox have a hitting coach how destroys swings and eats children's souls. Why would you want Dayan subjected to that? I want him having as little contact with Walker as possible, especially since this bad season has increased the possibility Ozzie will get shipped to Florida and the team will move on from Walker. The Sox also have a history of rushing prospects up too fast. Beckham has failed in part because he was rushed and in larger part because of the reason above. When Viciedo was up last year, he took 2 walks in 106 PAs. The Sox told him to work on his walks and decrease his strikeouts this year. He did that, while hitting for more power (despite missing time and then struggling because of two wrist injuries). He also got time to play RF in the minors, where blunders aren't hurting the team. Seriously, Dayan's season in the minors was a huge success. He did much more for his career development than having him DH in the majors would have. You can work on things like taking more walks and decreasing strikeouts in the minors, but once a player gets to the majors he isn't going to dramatically improve in either. I would say leaving the 22 year old Viciedo in the minor is something a good organization does, while calling up a kid who isn't ready (Beckham in 2009) is something a desperate org does. I would have been pissed if the Sox hampered Dayan's growth by calling him up this year. I think he is 100% ready next year, but I felt he needed more time.

Spot on.

blandman
08-29-2011, 10:13 AM
5 out in the loss column, 6 games head to head, and a month left to play.

People are using the word miracle. Really? That sort of stuff happens all the time in baseball.

asindc
08-29-2011, 10:18 AM
You're right, it's one game, but Dayan showed more pitch recognition than last year. He wasn't chasing like last year, even took a walk.

However, has it occurred that it is JUST POSSIBLE that he needed this year in the minors? That he would not have looked like this had he been brought up much earlier? That possibly, just possibly, they were aware of continued issues that needed to be worked on before he was ready for major-league pitching? Or did you expect them to announce what they were still working on with him, in order to do other teams' scouting for them?

One of the biggest complaints on WSI has been how the Sox ruin their prospects by rushing them to the majors. Viciedo was perhaps the rawest of the prospects they've had, and the most in need of minor-league seasoning. Yet what do we get? Complaints that he wasn't brought up fast enough. You can't have it both ways, folks.

Well done, sir.

TheOldRoman
08-29-2011, 10:26 AM
Well, since Leyland is willing to drop Verlander from 6 to 5 starts the rest of the way to line him up vs the SoxI wouldn't count on him only going 5 times. The expected Tiger slide aside, as long as the Sox and/or Indians can make the Tigers work for it the last two weeks, he will be pitching on three days rest each time.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 10:27 AM
5 out in the loss column, 6 games head to head, and a month left to play.

People are using the word miracle. Really? That sort of stuff happens all the time in baseball.

Have you not been watching the Sox this season?

Making up 6 games in 30. Yeah, miracle.

soxfan1965
08-29-2011, 10:46 AM
Bring back Wimpy - Sox 5-1 when in the booth this year. Oh my. Miss his "Hawkeroo" phrase. He can help revive the Sox, if not Burger King.

kufram
08-29-2011, 10:55 AM
Have you not been watching the Sox this season?

Making up 6 games in 30. Yeah, miracle.


i think everyone accepts that if the rest of the season is like the season up to now that 6 games is too much. This team looks different on the field now so maybe the results will be different.

FielderJones
08-29-2011, 11:05 AM
Have you not been watching the Sox this season?

Making up 6 games in 30. Yeah, miracle.

Even Cleveland and Minnesota have had 8-game win streaks this year. Only KC and the Sox have not. KC is horribly bad, Minnesota is not much better, and Cleveland is mediocre. It's not outside the realm of possibility that the Sox could run off 8 in a row, especially with the new blood adding more energy to the lineup.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 11:10 AM
i think everyone accepts that if the rest of the season is like the season up to now that 6 games is too much. This team looks different on the field now so maybe the results will be different.

Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

asindc
08-29-2011, 11:26 AM
Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

Do you leave open the possibility that the dynamic of the team has changed recently? Or that losing two in LAAAAA these days is not very telling, given that they are playing much better these days? If there were no replacements for Dunn (Viciedo, Lillibridge) and Rios (De Aza, Lillibridge), I might be more inclined to share your view. The wild card, of course, is how much Viciedo, Lillibridge, and De Aza will play instead of (as opposed to along side of) Dunn and Rios.

blandman
08-29-2011, 11:36 AM
Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

The thing about inconsistency, specifically the type of inconsistent this team has been, is that getting close with only a portion of games remaining can be very meaningful. This team has the ability to go on tears and win, say, 15 of 18. Sure, they could also lose 15 of 18. But either is just as likely, and I'm gonna be a glass half full kind of guy.

TDog
08-29-2011, 11:56 AM
Really, we just swept a team that could not hit its way out of a paper bag. I know the negativity gets old around here, but the sudden surge of optimism is utterly laughable. Six games out with just 30 games left is borderline miracle talk.

The Mariners scored 36 runs in the five games against the Rays and Indians they played on the road before coming home to host the White Sox. They scored five runs in three games against the White Sox, and three of those runs came in the last two innings of the last game after they down 9-0 after seven.

The pessimism around here is as laughable as the optimism.

tstrike2000
08-29-2011, 12:05 PM
How are we above .500 then? Kenny and Ozzie are terrible, remember?

Oh that's right. Now we're winning despite them. Just like we won despite Ozzie in 2005.

These complaints are getting tiring.

Yeah, 66-65!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Manager and Executive of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 12:22 PM
Big difference between being one game over .500 (with a 125 million dollar payroll) and being 36 games over like in 2005.

I guess some folks just have issues understanding that concept.

Lip

TomBradley72
08-29-2011, 12:29 PM
I will be a miracle. It's nice to sweep one of the worst teams in the league- but a line up with De Aza, Viciedo, Morel, Beckham, Lillibridge and Flowers just isn't a post season team. Nice group of youngish players- but we're only enamored with them because we've been watching such ****ty/lifeless baseball for 5 months

We just don't match up to the Tigers.

Only the bullpen is = to postseason caliber.

And our manager has become the village idiot- 8 years is a long tenure for a manager- time to move on.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 12:40 PM
Well, since Leyland is willing to drop Verlander from 6 to 5 starts the rest of the way to line him up vs the Sox,and to bring up a minor leaguer in Turner to pitch in his turn...Sox are going to have to do it the hard way...beat Verlander twice themselves. If they could do it even once,that means that Verlander only guarantees them 3 other good chances to win.
Sox have to do the dirty work themselves. Get hot with the bats,and beat the guy. His last 9 starts he has a ERA of 3.40, the 9 starts before that he was an ungodly ERA of .75 so, he is fadeing a bit down the stretch.

As far as 5 back in the loss column with 31 to play...miracle? Not really. Just beat the Tigers 5 of 6 and the Sox will need one less loss than the Tigers in the other 25 games to tie. Do-able? Yes. Easy ? no.

He could rectify that by having Verlander go on 3 days rest a time or two down the stretch if necessary and I'm sure he would if the situation called for it. Having him face the Sox is a no-brainer.

SI1020
08-29-2011, 12:45 PM
And our manager has become the village idiot- 8 years is a long tenure for a manager- time to move on. He doesn't handle adversity well. He handles criticism even worse. So he digs in his heels and say and does foolish things. He needs a fresh start and a team that is constructed to his liking. Everything will be fine and dandy until hard times and the criticism that goes with it comes along again. Unless he has taken his Chicago experience, with it the incredible highs and lows, and learned from it.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 12:46 PM
Yeah, 66-65!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Manager and Executive of the year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Big difference between being one game over .500 (with a 125 million dollar payroll) and being 36 games over like in 2005.

I guess some folks just have issues understanding that concept.

Seriously. The number of people here who continue to consider anything above 81 wins an acceptable or even successful season is disheartening.

blandman
08-29-2011, 12:48 PM
Big difference between being one game over .500 (with a 125 million dollar payroll) and being 36 games over like in 2005.

I guess some folks just have issues understanding that concept.

Lip

Remember "The Kids Can Play". Remember rebuilding to get to that level? If you want it again, that's what it takes. Your complaints are hypocritical because you're for trying to win on the fly.

I guess some folks just have issues understanding that concept.

delben91
08-29-2011, 12:56 PM
Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

As long as the unlikeliness remains at the 3 "really" level, I'm still in. If we hit the 4 "really" level, well, I'll need to re-think my stance.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 01:01 PM
As long as the unlikeliness remains at the 3 "really" level, I'm still in. If we hit the 4 "really" level, well, I'll need to re-think my stance.:thumbsup:

russ99
08-29-2011, 01:05 PM
Seriously. The number of people here who continue to consider anything above 81 wins an acceptable or even successful season is disheartening.

The number of people who expect 94+ wins every year like the Yankees and Red Sox are sadly delusional.

I miss the days of just enjoying baseball without this daily angst about how we "should be" doing.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 01:10 PM
Seriously. The number of people here who continue to consider anything above 81 wins an acceptable or even successful season is disheartening.

Except one of the guys you quoted (Lip) has gone on record time and time and time again that he holds that exact viewpoint...

blandman
08-29-2011, 01:19 PM
The number of people who expect 94+ wins every year like the Yankees and Red Sox are sadly delusional.

I miss the days of just enjoying baseball without this daily angst about how we "should be" doing.

Well, it's not impossible to have a run like that. It's just impossible without doing exactly what they're against doing. And they've made it so the organization feels they can never do it again.

hawkjt
08-29-2011, 01:24 PM
Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

Yea,they lost on the road to Santana and Weaver,two of the hottest pitchers in the league...what a shock.
The Sox last 5 losses have been to good pitchers,with good stuff on that nite,like Masterson,Carmona,Santana and Weaver.
Lately,the Sox have been beating mediocre pitchers.
This week they face Slowey,Diamond,and a new callup,then Verlander,Penny,and Scherzer. I like their matchups in 4 of those games,and if Danks and MB are on they can match Verlander and Scherzer. Sox bats must show up,or you will be right and can celebrate.

pudge
08-29-2011, 01:30 PM
The Mariners scored 36 runs in the five games against the Rays and Indians they played on the road before coming home to host the White Sox. They scored five runs in three games against the White Sox, and three of those runs came in the last two innings of the last game after they down 9-0 after seven.

The pessimism around here is as laughable as the optimism.

Wow, expect way more sanity out of you, TDog. Seattle hits .224 at home! They have the WORST average in the AL at .234. To suggest that this sweep is an indication of anything that points to this Sox team being any better than a .500 team, or being able to make up six games in the last 30, may be the peak of WSI ridiculousness.

October26
08-29-2011, 01:32 PM
I miss the days of just enjoying baseball without this daily angst about how we "should be" doing.

You and me both. Tough crowd around here lately. I also enjoy baseball and love it when the White Sox win. I'm glad you're here.

5soxfans
08-29-2011, 01:39 PM
...now I hope that helps gain momentum to put pressure on Detroit.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 01:40 PM
The number of people who expect 94+ wins every year like the Yankees and Red Sox are sadly delusional.

Nobody does. You have made up this group to have an easier foe to argue against.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 01:41 PM
The number of people who expect 94+ wins every year like the Yankees and Red Sox are sadly delusional.

I miss the days of just enjoying baseball without this daily angst about how we "should be" doing.

If you think that's people's problem with this Sox team, then you really do not understand the viewpoint of everyone who is frustrated with this season.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 01:41 PM
Except one of the guys you quoted (Lip) has gone on record time and time and time again that he holds that exact viewpoint...

Hence the reason I quoted him!

October26
08-29-2011, 01:43 PM
...now I hope that helps gain momentum to put pressure on Detroit.


Me too! And: :welcome:

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 01:48 PM
Voodoo:

You left out one important point.

I have always stated that winning at least 82 games is "my ultimate bottom line."

Feel free to check.

That doesn't mean I'm satisfied with it or doing cartwheels over it (and I've also written that many times) but when all is said and done a winning season in my book is better than a losing one.

I've also written, just last week how with the advantages they have in terms of population, marketing, the value of the TV and radio deals the Sox should be dominating the division like the Yankees and Red Sox in the East and the Angels in the West the past decade. Or how Cleveland dominated the division in the 90's and Minnesota in the 00's.

I don't mind you using me as an example but when you do, I think there's an obligation to tell the entire story.

Lip

blandman
08-29-2011, 01:53 PM
Voodoo:

You left out one important point.

I have always stated that winning at least 82 games is "my ultimate bottom line."

Feel free to check.

That doesn't mean I'm satisfied with it (and I've also written that many times) but when all is said and done a winning season in my book is better than a losing one.

I've also written, just last week how with the advantages they have in terms of population, marketing, the value of the TV and radio deals the Sox should be dominating the division like the Yankees and Red Sox in the East and the Angels in the West the past decade. Or how Cleveland dominated the division in the 90's and Minnesota in the 00's.

I don't mind you using me as an example but when you do, I think there's an obligation to tell the entire story.

Lip

First off, the Yanks, Red Sox, and Angels are not good examples. Chicago's a big market, but it's not our market and it's never going to be. It's the Cubs market, in TV, radio, and fans. It's always been that way and it will always be that way. Saying otherwise is like saying New York can one day be a Mets town. That's just plain asinine.

Secondly, those Tribe and Twinkie mini-dynasties didn't come from spending tons of money and making tons of trades to add to an existing aging core to stay competitve no matter what. Both teams went through extensively rebuilding and were beyond terrible for multiple years to build those systems. When it ended for Cleveland...look how long they had to rebuild to get a new young core. Minnesota? Looks like they'll have to start from scratch again.

We don't do that. You can't compare us to that. Especially when you champion not going that route.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:03 PM
First off, the Yanks, Red Sox, and Angels are not good examples. Chicago's a big market, but it's not our market and it's never going to be. It's the Cubs market, in TV, radio, and fans. It's always been that way and it will always be that way. Saying otherwise is like saying New York can one day be a Mets town. That's just plain asinine.

Well first, of course we all know that no, this has not always been a Cubs town first and foremost. Perhaps it will be for a while now, but it's not like the Sox have always played second fiddle around here. And second, aren't the Angels perpetually 2nd in the hearts of Angelinos to the Dodgers?

TDog
08-29-2011, 02:08 PM
Wow, expect way more sanity out of you, TDog. Seattle hits .224 at home! They have the WORST average in the AL at .234. To suggest that this sweep is an indication of anything that points to this Sox team being any better than a .500 team, or being able to make up six games in the last 30, may be the peak of WSI ridiculousness.

Watch baseball instead of stats. The Mariners released Cust, made a couple of lineup changes and were hitting very well on their last road trip. Friday night, the Mariners came from behind to tie the game and looked like they might be picking up where they left off in Cleveland before Sox pitching shut them down -- for about 20 innings (frankly, I lost count).

The Sox could have won the first game in Anaheim (or greater LA) but for a poor relief outing. The Angels beat up the Sox in the Stewart-Wright game. The Sox swept a Mariners team that played pretty well in Cleveland. Before going on the road, the Sox took the last two games against the Rangers in Chicago, shutting them out on Sunday.

Baseball, especially White Sox baseball is like a Rorschach test. If you're a fan, what you see says more about you than what it is you're looking at. The dynamics of this team have changed significantly over the course of the season. The White Sox indeed could finish at or about .500. But if the White Sox were six games ahead going into September, there would still be plenty of pessimism.

The Sox aren't nearly as bad as people here want to make them out to be, especially after they sweep a team on the road. (Granted, I would have rather seen a sweep of the Mariners in October 2000, but that's irrelevant.)

And by the way, the Giants were at least six games out of first going into September last year. You don't have to go back to the 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 games remaining) to find a team that lost that kind of a lead.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 02:12 PM
Nobody does. You have made up this group to have an easier foe to argue against.
That's simply not true. There are posters here who have said they consider anything short of championships to be a disappointment. Winning seasons, even playoff appearances, are not good enough, and they have been open and clear about that.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:18 PM
Watch baseball instead of stats. The Mariners released Cust, made a couple of lineup changes and were hitting very well on their last road trip. Friday night, the Mariners came from behind to tie the game and looked like they might be picking up where they left off in Cleveland before Sox pitching shut them down -- for about 20 innings (frankly, I lost count).

The Sox could have won the first game in Anaheim (or greater LA) but for a poor relief outing. The Angels beat up the Sox in the Stewart-Wright game. The Sox swept a Mariners team that played pretty well in Cleveland. Before going on the road, the Sox took the last two games against the Rangers in Chicago, shutting them out on Sunday.

Baseball, especially White Sox baseball is like a Rorschach test. If you're a fan, what you see says more about you than what it is you're looking at. The dynamics of this team have changed significantly over the course of the season. The White Sox indeed could finish at or about .500. But if the White Sox were six games ahead going into September, there would still be plenty of pessimism.

The Sox aren't nearly as bad as people here want to make them out to be, especially after they sweep a team on the road. (Granted, I would have rather seen a sweep of the Mariners in October 2000, but that's irrelevant.)

And by the way, the Giants were at least six games out of first going into September last year. You don't have to go back to the 1964 Phillies (up 6.5 with 12 games remaining) to find a team that lost that kind of a lead.

A) The Mariners suck, OK? They release Cust on August 4 and since then have still gone 8-13, one of the worst marks in the AL since that time. Their offense has been one of the worst in baseball for years now. So please don't BS us like we're supposed to be impressed because they got their act together for 3 games against the ****bag Indians.

B) The Giants were also 13 games over .500 going into September. I have yet to actually find a team in the division era that meets our criteria (6 GB after 131 in the season) that came back to win the division. But given that this team is only 1 game over .500 and hasn't had a winning streak greater than 5 games, it's hard to sell people on being blindly optimistic.

I'm happy they swept Seattle because they're generally not that good against sub-.500 teams, so that was encouraging. But everything I have watched this year from the Sox does not make me believe they go on a tear and win the Central this year. Now, I do believe the Tigers could still fall apart and we could win by default.

blandman
08-29-2011, 02:19 PM
Well first, of course we all know that no, this has not always been a Cubs town first and foremost. Perhaps it will be for a while now, but it's not like the Sox have always played second fiddle around here. And second, aren't the Angels perpetually 2nd in the hearts of Angelinos to the Dodgers?

The Cubs have become a national icon, and it has nothing to do with baseball. People move to Chicago and become Cubs fans. People get into baseball for the first time and they're drawn the the "tradition", as much as we don't play into that. It happens. And it's not going to stop. They've become this because of the media, and the media perpetuates it. It's good for business. There is no way to stop it.

You're not serious about the Angels thing, right? They're not the Los Angeles team, they're the rich people south of LA team. I'd take the money in Orange County over the south side of Chicago any day.

kufram
08-29-2011, 02:20 PM
Um, they just lost 2 to the Angels before beating up on a wretched Seattle team.

The roller coaster some of you have voluntarily put yourselves on this season has been amusing/surprising. This has been the same team almost all season - win a few and look good, followed by losing just as many and looking bad, all the while having consistently good pitching (after the April and early May bullpen issues), consistently bad hitting, and questionable defense and fundamentals.

Yet, all of a sudden, this team is good enough to make up 6 games in the last month??? Yes, it is mathematically possible. No, it would not be a "miracle." But it is really, really, REALLY unlikely.

I used to think like that - many, many years ago.

Well, I'm happy to provide some amusement for you. Condescending and patronizing are words that come to my mind. I see the same game you do, you know, and I'm not stupid nor am I unaware of the position we are in. I've not been on a roller coaster ride for your information. I can still find winning games entertaining without bringing the evil of yesterday's loss to it, I'm sorry you've lost that ability.

The team actually could be suddenly better because the team suddenly has 2 or 3 options it didn't have 2 weeks ago due to injury and timing.

Aren't you the guy that knew exactly how bad Juan Pierre was for a while at the start of the season and predicted daily that he would never get better and never shut up about it? Gee, you're not always right.... what a disappointment that must be to you.

I came to this site and post here because I wanted to interact with like minded White Sox fans. You might not approve of me but, you know what? I could give a damn.

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 02:21 PM
For those who have a "revisionist" sense of history regarding the White Sox place in the market:

From my piece "Sox and the Media..."

"Billy Pierce has seen a lot in his over 50 year association with the team. One of the greatest left handed pitchers in franchise history, Pierce also worked as a Sox TV color analyst and has been associated with the Sox in numerous public and charitable associations for decades. He was a player for them in the 1950’s and the early part of the 1960’s.

Time and perceptions change reality. For myself, growing up in Chicago in that period, my memory of how the media covered the White Sox was one that was positive. But I was born in 1955, by the time Billy left the Sox in a trade, I was only six. In short I could have been wrong. So recently while in Chicago I asked him if this was a fair assessment of the situation; that the Sox got the lion’s share of the local coverage during that time.

“That’s a fair statement,” he said over lunch.

“We had players who were nationally known like Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, Luis Aparicio, Early Wynn. We won the pennant in 1959 and every year had a winning season, but remember when this all started in 1951, the Sox had been losing for so long that when the media was covering us in that time they’d say ‘well the Sox are winning…but’, they didn’t know if we could sustain it. Once we showed them that we were a good franchise and could play good baseball they got on-board.”

“The writers who covered us in those days, men like Bill Gleason, Warren Brown, Ed Prell and then later guys like Jerry Holtzman and Dick Dozier really knew the game. They weren’t loud, they weren’t looking to draw attention to themselves, and they just covered us and the games.”

The time period from 1951 to 1967 saw the Sox roll out 17 straight winning seasons, the 3rd longest streak in MLB history. They outdrew the Cubs in 16 of those seasons, had seven 90+ win years and had a total of 70 All Star representatives including nine in 1954. The Cubs meanwhile in that period had only two winning seasons and were known more for Ernie Banks and the infamous “college of coaches” than anything else.

As recently as the early 80's, the Sox were the dominant franchise in Chicago."

Lip

kittle42
08-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Watch baseball instead of stats. The Mariners released Cust, made a couple of lineup changes and were hitting very well on their last road trip. Friday night, the Mariners came from behind to tie the game and looked like they might be picking up where they left off in Cleveland before Sox pitching shut them down -- for about 20 innings (frankly, I lost count).

The Sox could have won the first game in Anaheim (or greater LA) but for a poor relief outing. The Angels beat up the Sox in the Stewart-Wright game. The Sox swept a Mariners team that played pretty well in Cleveland. Before going on the road, the Sox took the last two games against the Rangers in Chicago, shutting them out on Sunday.


Come ON! I bet you could make the Astros sound like quite the powerhouse to overcome if you really wanted to. Quite impressive, in a baffling, "Does anyone actually believe this?" kind of way.

JB98
08-29-2011, 02:23 PM
Regarding expectations for the rest of the season, there are 31 games left and I fully expect the Sox to win between 14 and 17 of them.

They haven't shown me they are capable of going on an extended run at any point over the season's first five months, so I don't expect anything to change the final four weeks.

I doubt the bottom will fall out either. They'll win their fair share, but they won't win nearly enough. I've stepped off the rollercoaster now and recognized this team for what it is: a .500 club.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 02:26 PM
Regarding expectations for the rest of the season, there are 31 games left and I fully expect the Sox to win between 14 and 17 of them.

They haven't shown me they are capable of going on an extended run at any point over the season's first five months, so I don't expect anything to change the final four weeks.

I doubt the bottom will fall out either. They'll win their fair share, but they won't win nearly enough. I've stepped off the rollercoaster now and recognized this team for what it is: a .500 club.

I feel exactly the same way. 17-14 sounds about right. I'm not predicting gloom and doom - the team is good enough to avoid falling another 6 back or something - but they are what they have been all season. Expecting them to suddenly be worldbeaters after 131 games showing otherwise is like expecting Adam Dunn to hit 15 homers the rest of the way.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 02:26 PM
The Cubs have become a national icon, and it has nothing to do with baseball. People move to Chicago and become Cubs fans. People get into baseball for the first time and they're drawn the the "tradition", as much as we don't play into that. It happens. And it's not going to stop. They've become this because of the media, and the media perpetuates it. It's good for business. There is no way to stop it.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Show me the objective evidence that when people move to Chicago they become Cub fans. You're just playing the inferiority complex card Cub fans say we have. Thanks.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:26 PM
The Cubs have become a national icon, and it has nothing to do with baseball. People move to Chicago and become Cubs fans. People get into baseball for the first time and they're drawn the the "tradition", as much as we don't play into that. It happens. And it's not going to stop. They've become this because of the media, and the media perpetuates it. It's good for business. There is no way to stop it.

You're not serious about the Angels thing, right? They're not the Los Angeles team, they're the rich people south of LA team. I'd take the money in Orange County over the south side of Chicago any day.

I'm not arguing the fact that the Cubs are now the #1 team in Chicago, I was just pointing out the fact that it has not always been that way. It's not quite as drastic as the Yankees/Mets phenomon in New York, where the Yankees are the well-established, championship juggernaut and the Mets have been around for less than 1 generation still.

And no, you do not understand the dynamics of Los Angeles. Just like there are plenty of Cub fans who live on the South Side and in the south suburbs, the Dodgers presence penetrates well into Orange County. It's very similar to the Cubs/Sox relationship here in Chicago, the Dodgers are traditionally the #1 team in the region with a fanbase of urban yuppies and rich suburbanites out on the town in the city for a night, while the Angels are percieved as the blue collar team in the region.

blandman
08-29-2011, 02:27 PM
For those who have a "revisionist" sense of history regarding the White Sox place in the market:

From my piece "Sox and the Media..."

"Billy Pierce has seen a lot in his over 50 year association with the team. One of the greatest left handed pitchers in franchise history, Pierce also worked as a Sox TV color analyst and has been associated with the Sox in numerous public and charitable associations for decades. He was a player for them in the 1950’s and the early part of the 1960’s.

Time and perceptions change reality. For myself, growing up in Chicago in that period, my memory of how the media covered the White Sox was one that was positive. But I was born in 1955, by the time Billy left the Sox in a trade, I was only six. In short I could have been wrong. So recently while in Chicago I asked him if this was a fair assessment of the situation; that the Sox got the lion’s share of the local coverage during that time.

“That’s a fair statement,” he said over lunch.

“We had players who were nationally known like Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, Luis Aparicio, Early Wynn. We won the pennant in 1959 and every year had a winning season, but remember when this all started in 1951, the Sox had been losing for so long that when the media was covering us in that time they’d say ‘well the Sox are winning…but’, they didn’t know if we could sustain it. Once we showed them that we were a good franchise and could play good baseball they got on-board.”

“The writers who covered us in those days, men like Bill Gleason, Warren Brown, Ed Prell and then later guys like Jerry Holtzman and Dick Dozier really knew the game. They weren’t loud, they weren’t looking to draw attention to themselves, and they just covered us and the games.”

The time period from 1951 to 1967 saw the Sox roll out 17 straight winning seasons, the 3rd longest streak in MLB history. They outdrew the Cubs in 16 of those seasons, had seven 90+ win years and had a total of 70 All Star representatives including nine in 1954. The Cubs meanwhile in that period had only two winning seasons and were known more for Ernie Banks and the infamous “college of coaches” than anything else.

As recently as the early 80's, the Sox were the dominant franchise in Chicago."

Lip

It's not revisionist history, it's the best marketing scheme of the modern era. The Cubs are the Apple of baseball, the Tribune Company playing the role of Steve Jobs. People have become mindless drones for it. They argue for tradition and Wrigley and bleachers and bleed Cubbie blue. The product doesn't matter, it's crap they're selling, and they've sold it so well that even the critics will buy in forever.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:29 PM
It's not revisionist history, it's the best marketing scheme of the modern era. The Cubs are the Apple of baseball, the Tribune Company playing the role of Steve Jobs. People have become mindless drones for it. They argue for tradition and Wrigley and bleachers and bleed Cubbie blue. The product doesn't matter, it's crap they're selling, and they've sold it so well that even the critics will buy in forever.

WHAT THE **** DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND.

NOBODY is arguing that the Cubs are now the clear leaders of the present day Chicago baseball scene. NOBODY is arguing that point.

People just have taken exception to your assertation that they have always been the #1 team around here. And I know you know that's bull****.

blandman
08-29-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm not arguing the fact that the Cubs are now the #1 team in Chicago, I was just pointing out the fact that it has not always been that way. It's not quite as drastic as the Yankees/Mets phenomon in New York, where the Yankees are the well-established, championship juggernaut and the Mets have been around for less than 1 generation still.

And no, you do not understand the dynamics of Los Angeles. Just like there are plenty of Cub fans who live on the South Side and in the south suburbs, the Dodgers presence penetrates well into Orange County. It's very similar to the Cubs/Sox relationship here in Chicago, the Dodgers are traditionally the #1 team in the region with a fanbase of urban yuppies and rich suburbanites out on the town in the city for a night, while the Angels are percieved as the blue collar team in the region.

Yeah, except that "blue collar" area is Anaheim, Santa Ana, and every city between there and San Diego. "Blue collar" there and here are completely different things. If you think they aren't, I dare you to go live in Roseland for a year and compare that to, say, Mission Viejo, one of the more "blue collar" of the OC cities.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 02:33 PM
Yeah, except that "blue collar" area is Anaheim, Santa Ana, and every city between there and San Diego. "Blue collar" there and here are completely different things. If you think they aren't, I dare you to go live in Roseland for a year and compare that to, say, Mission Viejo, one of the more "blue collar" of the OC cities.

:rolleyes:

You're absolutely right, Sox fans only live in Roseland

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 02:33 PM
It's not revisionist history, it's the best marketing scheme of the modern era. The Cubs are the Apple of baseball, the Tribune Company playing the role of Steve Jobs. People have become mindless drones for it. They argue for tradition and Wrigley and bleachers and bleed Cubbie blue. The product doesn't matter, it's crap they're selling, and they've sold it so well that even the critics will buy in forever.
Maybe three or four years ago. The Cubs are no longer in the national conversation. After getting swept out of the playoffs in successive years, the rest of the country realized what we've known all along (they suck).

The Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies, and (to a lesser degree) the Giants are now the apple of the national media's eye. If the Brewers make it to the World Series this year, add them to the list.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 02:34 PM
Yeah, except that "blue collar" area is Anaheim, Santa Ana, and every city between there and San Diego. "Blue collar" there and here are completely different things. If you think they aren't, I dare you to go live in Roseland for a year and compare that to, say, Mission Viejo, one of the more "blue collar" of the OC cities.
I dare you to live in Winnetka. It has more Sox fans than you want to acknowledge.

blandman
08-29-2011, 02:53 PM
Yeah, except that "blue collar" area is Anaheim, Santa Ana, and every city between there and San Diego. "Blue collar" there and here are completely different things. If you think they aren't, I dare you to go live in Roseland for a year and compare that to, say, Mission Viejo, one of the more "blue collar" of the OC cities.

I dare you to live in Winnetka. It has more Sox fans than you want to acknowledge.


My point is that the money areas for the Sox are the low end streams for a team like the Angels.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 02:56 PM
Voodoo:

You left out one important point.

I have always stated that winning at least 82 games is "my ultimate bottom line."

Feel free to check.

That doesn't mean I'm satisfied with it or doing cartwheels over it (and I've also written that many times) but when all is said and done a winning season in my book is better than a losing one.

I've also written, just last week how with the advantages they have in terms of population, marketing, the value of the TV and radio deals the Sox should be dominating the division like the Yankees and Red Sox in the East and the Angels in the West the past decade. Or how Cleveland dominated the division in the 90's and Minnesota in the 00's.

I don't mind you using me as an example but when you do, I think there's an obligation to tell the entire story.

Lip

I read Kittle's post as an agreement with you and then a rip on the "other folks". So I simply countered with what I have read you say many times. I never claimed you were doing cartwheels merely that you have said that a winning season is a successful and acceptable season, not the ultimate goal. Here you admit that it is your bottom line for success, so I don't see why you are feeling put out. I have not twisted your words in any way.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 03:00 PM
The Cubs have become a national icon, and it has nothing to do with baseball. People move to Chicago and become Cubs fans. People get into baseball for the first time and they're drawn the the "tradition", as much as we don't play into that. It happens. And it's not going to stop. They've become this because of the media, and the media perpetuates it. It's good for business. There is no way to stop it.

You're not serious about the Angels thing, right? They're not the Los Angeles team, they're the rich people south of LA team. I'd take the money in Orange County over the south side of Chicago any day.

I believe the sale of the team will help change this dynamic and to some extent it already is. Whether the Sox can capitalize on that change only time will tell.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 03:01 PM
My point is that the money areas for the Sox are the low end streams for a team like the Angels.

And that's crap, first off, there are plenty of western and southwestern Chicago suburbs that would be in the "Sox's money areas" as you have called it that are incredibly wealthy and second, just because the Angels play in Orange County does not mean they automatically win over the hearts and minds of all those fans. LA is a very transient area, a lot of people who live there are not from there, they have no ties to the area, so they either stick with their previous teams from back East or a significant chunk become Dodger fans because, like the Cubs, they have been told that's just what they're supposed to do.

blandman
08-29-2011, 03:14 PM
And that's crap, first off, there are plenty of western and southwestern Chicago suburbs that would be in the "Sox's money areas" as you have called it that are incredibly wealthy and second, just because the Angels play in Orange County does not mean they automatically win over the hearts and minds of all those fans. LA is a very transient area, a lot of people who live there are not from there, they have no ties to the area, so they either stick with their previous teams from back East or a significant chunk become Dodger fans because, like the Cubs, they have been told that's just what they're supposed to do.

LA is not the OC, the OC is not a transient area. The OC is essentially 100 very large and very rich suburbs. The "poorer" of those suburbs has homes in gated communities start at just under half a million. I have family who live in those areas, making well into the six figures and they're on the low end of residents. They are considered that "blue collar", because most of the OC is made up of that 3% of super rich. I'm sorry, but I don't see how on Earth you can compare that to, say, Naperville and say the earning in the fanbase is even close to on par. It's not. Just about everyone that lives in the OC can afford to have season tickets if they wanted for their entire family. The bulk of our fanbase couldn't dream of that kind of wealth.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 03:15 PM
LA is not the OC

"Don't call it that."

SI1020
08-29-2011, 03:16 PM
2009 Median Household Incomes for the following counties.

Orange (CA) $71,375
Du Page (IL) $73,554
Kane (IL) $66,604
Will (IL) $72,478

I don't know about you, but I think money in suburban Chicago goes just a tad farther than it does anywhere in southern California.

blandman
08-29-2011, 03:19 PM
2009 Median Household Incomes for the following counties.

Orange (CA) $71,375
Du Page (IL) $73,554
Kane (IL) $66,604
Will (IL) $72,478

I don't know about you, but I think money in suburban Chicago goes just a tad farther than it does anywhere in southern California.

Kane and Will counties? C'mon, those people are not within reasonable distance to come to games everyday.

TheOldRoman
08-29-2011, 03:21 PM
Du Page, Kane, and Will counties? C'mon, those people are not within reasonable distance to come to games everyday.I live in Will and the park is less than an hour from me in decent traffic. No, it's not a 15 minute drive, but then again, traffic is so terrible in the LA metro area that is probably takes most of the Angels fans an hour to get to the game, anyway.

blandman
08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
I live in Will and the park is less than an hour from me in decent traffic. No, it's not a 15 minute drive, but then again, traffic is so terrible in the LA metro area that is probably takes most of the Angels fans an hour to get to the game, anyway.


I think there is some disconnect here. Anaheim is in Orange County, and is far from LA. People in LA don't go to Angels games, despite what their name is.

Orange County, which is south of Los Angeles County, is all suburbs. There are 3 million rich suburbanites living around that ballpark. It's as if the Comiskey surrounding neighborhoods were all Naperville for 100 miles in any direction.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 03:24 PM
Kane and Will counties? C'mon, those people are not within reasonable distance to come to games everyday.
You're right. Metra has made it virtually impossible for Sox fans in Will County to get to the park and back.......:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
Voodoo:

I apologize then for misunderstanding your post.

No offense taken.

Lip

doublem23
08-29-2011, 03:25 PM
LA is not the OC, the OC is not a transient area. The OC is essentially 100 very large and very rich suburbs. The "poorer" of those suburbs has homes in gated communities start at just under half a million. I have family who live in those areas, making well into the six figures and they're on the low end of residents. They are considered that "blue collar", because most of the OC is made up of that 3% of super rich. I'm sorry, but I don't see how on Earth you can compare that to, say, Naperville and say the earning in the fanbase is even close to on par. It's not. Just about everyone that lives in the OC can afford to have season tickets if they wanted for their entire family. The bulk of our fanbase couldn't dream of that kind of wealth.

I don't doubt that Orange County has some very affluent areas but AGAIN, you are under the idea that they are all Angels fans. And, as wealthy as parts of Orange County are, 10% of its population is under the federal poverty line and the per capita income is essentially equal to that of Cook County.

blandman
08-29-2011, 03:27 PM
I don't doubt that Orange County has some very affluent areas but AGAIN, you are under the idea that they are all Angels fans. And, as wealthy as parts of Orange County are, 10% of its population is under the federal poverty line and the per capita income is essentially equal to that of Cook County.

90% are all uber rich. And they live around the ballpark. Anaheim isn't really a city, it's like a suburb surrounded by even richer suburbs.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 03:31 PM
90% are all uber rich. And they live around the ballpark. Anaheim isn't really a city, it's like a suburb surrounded by even richer suburbs.

All right dude, I've had enough trying to argue with a brick wall for now, if you want to believe Anaheim and the Orange County are this magical land of milk and honey, and they're all rabid Angels fans, please be my guest. It's no accident that the Angels have never outdrawn the Dodgers at the gate. I have never heard anyone from the LA area who has even hinted that the Angels get anywhere close to the support the Dodgers do, but surely surely you know more than they all do.

I'll just go back to living in my shanty in Roseland since, as a Sox fan, that's the only place I could possibly reside.

kittle42
08-29-2011, 03:32 PM
90% are all uber rich. And they live around the ballpark. Anaheim isn't really a city, it's like a suburb surrounded by even richer suburbs.

I don't know - Sue said it was pretty rough. That's why he was packing when House of Pain stepped to him. He kept his rep.

DumpJerry
08-29-2011, 03:35 PM
All right dude, I've had enough trying to argue with a brick wall for now, if you want to believe Anaheim and the Orange County are this magical land of milk and honey, and they're all rabid Angels fans, please be my guest. It's no accident that the Angels have never outdrawn the Dodgers at the gate. I have never heard anyone from the LA area who has even hinted that the Angels get anywhere close to the support the Dodgers do, but surely surely you know more than they all do.

I'll just go back to living in my shanty in Roseland since, as a Sox fan, that's the only place I could possibly reside.
The Angels' owner changed their name to "Los Angeles" to open up media markets in Latin America for the team so they could make more money to remain competitive. The rationale behind this was that the name Los Angeles was better known than Anaheim in Latin America.

But I'm sure it also has to do with all the uber-rich Disney people who were spending their money watching the national treasure also known as the Chicago Cubs instead on the hometown favorites......

SI1020
08-29-2011, 03:36 PM
The wealthiest areas of Orange County are not in the vicinity of the Angels ball park.

TheOldRoman
08-29-2011, 03:38 PM
I think there is some disconnect here. Anaheim is in Orange County, and is far from LA. People in LA don't go to Angels games, despite what their name is.

Orange County, which is south of Los Angeles County, is all suburbs. There are 3 million rich suburbanites living around that ballpark. It's as if the Comiskey surrounding neighborhoods were all Naperville for 100 miles in any direction.Right, but it is still the LA metro area. I have been to Anaheim twice, and the traffic in and surrounding the city is horrendous. Even staying within the city, it takes forever to get to the park.

voodoochile
08-29-2011, 04:02 PM
Voodoo:

I apologize then for misunderstanding your post.

No offense taken.

Lip

NBD, Lip...

Edit: and for the record I agree with the idea that a winning record is the bottom line for success. I've long felt that way and at one point actually thought baseball should take every team that had a winning record and put them in the playoffs. I've subsequently changed my stance on that...

blandman
08-29-2011, 04:24 PM
Right, but it is still the LA metro area. I have been to Anaheim twice, and the traffic in and surrounding the city is horrendous. Even staying within the city, it takes forever to get to the park.

If you live in LA, there's no reason to ever leave. That's like saying Chicago is part of the Rockford market, and people from Chicago will travel to see games there.

blandman
08-29-2011, 04:29 PM
NBD, Lip...

Edit: and for the record I agree with the idea that a winning record is the bottom line for success. I've long felt that way and at one point actually thought baseball should take every team that had a winning record and put them in the playoffs. I've subsequently changed my stance on that...

Baseball is really, more than any other sport, a game of little things that you can't predict. If you're building a team that should win 82 games, you could wind up with 72 or 92 depending on managing, injuries, and just plain luck. I prefer rebuilding as a method, as we can make that first number higher and have a larger margin for error. But I'm not going to complain that we're going the consistently have a chance route. Because we certainly could win the division with this squad, and we're certainly still very much in it.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 04:37 PM
You're right. Metra has made it virtually impossible for Sox fans in Will County to get to the park and back.......:rolleyes:And they ought to build a highway from the Joliet and Bolingbrook area that would get you near the ballpark. They could name it after somebody like Adlai Stevenson.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-29-2011, 04:43 PM
And they ought to build a highway from the Joliet and Bolingbrook area that would get you near the ballpark. They could name it after somebody like Adlai Stevenson.

The Stevenson Expressway?

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc497/insureagent/guinness-brilliant.jpg

Daver
08-29-2011, 04:48 PM
And they ought to build a highway from the Joliet and Bolingbrook area that would get you near the ballpark. They could name it after somebody like Adlai Stevenson.

That's just crazy talk.

hi im skot
08-29-2011, 04:49 PM
I don't know - Sue said it was pretty rough. That's why he was packing when House of Pain stepped to him. He kept his rep.

This post is money, baby.

blandman
08-29-2011, 04:50 PM
And they ought to build a highway from the Joliet and Bolingbrook area that would get you near the ballpark. They could name it after somebody like Adlai Stevenson.

Meanwhile, the clubs we are being compared to have people that live in the vicinity of the ballpark that can go.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 04:51 PM
Meanwhile, the clubs we are being compared to have people that live in the vicinity of the ballpark that can go.That wasn't the point. Somebody said Will County was too far away and too hard to get to the park.

Nellie_Fox
08-29-2011, 04:52 PM
The Stevenson Expressway?

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc497/insureagent/guinness-brilliant.jpgIt does have a ring to it, doesn't it?

TheOldRoman
08-29-2011, 05:10 PM
If you live in LA, there's no reason to ever leave. That's like saying Chicago is part of the Rockford market, and people from Chicago will travel to see games there.Fine, but once again, travel within Anaheim blows. You could live in Anaheim and still have a 40 minute ride to the park.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Meanwhile, the clubs we are being compared to have people that live in the vicinity of the ballpark that can go.

Gimme a ****in break, you were giving the Angels Mission Viejo as part of their "money area" because it's in Orange County with them, but it's like 25 miles from Anaheim.

blandman
08-29-2011, 06:48 PM
Gimme a ****in break, you were giving the Angels Mission Viejo as part of their "money area" because it's in Orange County with them, but it's like 25 miles from Anaheim.

That's part of their low end income, remember. The areas directly around Anaheim are a far cry from the neighborhoods on the south side of Chicago. Comparing them just has no basis.

doublem23
08-29-2011, 10:37 PM
That's part of their low end income, remember. The areas directly around Anaheim are a far cry from the neighborhoods on the south side of Chicago. Comparing them just has no basis.

Did you just call Mission Viejo "low income?" It's got one of the highest average household incomes in the country.

Again, you're not understanding the argument. I'm not arguing with you that if you compare all of Orange County against some cherry-picked poor South Side neighborhoods, Orange County is a much nicer place to live and more affluent. The argument is that a lot of people out there, even though they are near Anaheim, ARE NOT ALL ANGEL FANS. Most people in the LA/Orange County area are either A) fans of the teams from their hometowns since a good chunk of the residents down there are not from LA or B) if they adopt an LA-area team, they generally pick the Dodgers, much in the same way transplants to Chicago right now usually pick the Cubs over the Sox.