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Fenway
08-25-2011, 01:23 PM
There seems to be some smoke here

Red Sox owner John Henry made an odd comment

“This kind of speculation happens from time to time to successful GMs and managers,The Cubs have one of the best presidents in baseball. I think this shows how highly regarded Theo is by the media and baseball in general.” :scratch::?:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/08/hot_topic_theo.html

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/red-sox/post/_/id/13590/henry-responds-to-speculation-on-theo

Lip Man 1
08-25-2011, 01:38 PM
Yawn.

Maybe he goes to another organization and can buy anything he wants.

Lip

Fenway
08-25-2011, 01:42 PM
Yawn.

Maybe he goes to another organization and can buy anything he wants.

Lip

Knock him all you want but he has developed a top notch farm system...

asindc
08-25-2011, 01:42 PM
I'll be more impressed if he takes the KC job and wins there.

doublem23
08-25-2011, 01:42 PM
As has been pointed out, Theo basically makes nothing but mistakes on the FA market but is able to cover those moves because the Red Sox basically have an unlimited payroll. Likely the only other place he'd be successful is New York.

So, go ahead Cubbies! :thumbsup:

blandman
08-25-2011, 02:13 PM
Knock him all you want but he has developed a top notch farm system...

Bull****. There are three models in baseball. Spend money on your roster, spend money on your farm, or be the Yankees and Red Sox, spending way more than everyone else on both.

kittle42
08-25-2011, 02:27 PM
Bull****. There are three models in baseball. Spend money on your roster, spend money on your farm, or be the Yankees and Red Sox, spending way more than everyone else on both.

Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

Rocky Soprano
08-25-2011, 02:49 PM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

Very well said.
:gulp:

Soxman219
08-25-2011, 02:55 PM
Theo Epstein is overrated.

soltrain21
08-25-2011, 02:56 PM
Knock him all you want but he has developed a top notch farm system...

But spending a **** ton of money on draft picks along with spending a **** ton of money on the big league squad?

Right.

chisoxjtrain
08-25-2011, 03:01 PM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

I've been to White Sox games with the opponents being the Yankees and Red Sox. The Yankees fans were fine. The Red Sox fans were insufferable. "The Red Sox are just in another class of baseball and human beings," (whatever the hell that meant). The fact like they act like the Yankees are the evil big brother is such bull****. I've never been around fans that feel like they deserve to win games and championships because they feel like they are slighted for no reason until I sat around Red Sox fans.

Risk
08-25-2011, 03:09 PM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

QFT.:gulp:

Risk

Fenway
08-25-2011, 03:29 PM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

FIRST - I agree that MANY Red Sox fans under the age of 30 are just brutal to deal with. We hate them more than you do..

SECOND - If the New England market can support Red Sox ownership going toe to toe with the Yankees then what is the problem? Boston fans pay through the nose to get into Fenway and since the Red Sox budget is ticket sales = payroll then fine.

At least Boston tries to keep up with NY - Baltimore gave up.

Since we will never see local TV money split 30 ways and there will never be a hard cap in baseball things are not going to change.

MLB knows that many fans complain there is too much NYY-Boston coverage BUT they also are aware that the teams pull ratings that other teams do not.

Texas is getting close to playing at the Boston-New York level with their new TV deal.

Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to. The Cubs did play at that level but they are the Cubs.

doublem23
08-25-2011, 03:31 PM
FIRST - I agree that MANY Red Sox fans under the age of 30 are just brutal to deal with. We hate them more than you do..

SECOND - If the New England market can support Red Sox ownership going toe to toe with the Yankees then what is the problem? Boston fans pay through the nose to get into Fenway and since the Red Sox budget is ticket sales = payroll then fine.

At least Boston tries to keep up with NY - Baltimore gave up.

Since we will never see local TV money split 30 ways and there will never be a hard cap in baseball things are not going to change.

MLB knows that many fans complain there is too much NYY-Boston coverage BUT they also are aware that the teams pull ratings that other teams do not.

Texas is getting close to playing at the Boston-New York level with their new TV deal.

Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to. The Cubs did play at that level but they are the Cubs.

:violin:

blandman
08-25-2011, 03:41 PM
FIRST - I agree that MANY Red Sox fans under the age of 30 are just brutal to deal with. We hate them more than you do..

SECOND - If the New England market can support Red Sox ownership going toe to toe with the Yankees then what is the problem? Boston fans pay through the nose to get into Fenway and since the Red Sox budget is ticket sales = payroll then fine.

At least Boston tries to keep up with NY - Baltimore gave up.

Since we will never see local TV money split 30 ways and there will never be a hard cap in baseball things are not going to change.

MLB knows that many fans complain there is too much NYY-Boston coverage BUT they also are aware that the teams pull ratings that other teams do not.

Texas is getting close to playing at the Boston-New York level with their new TV deal.

Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to. The Cubs did play at that level but they are the Cubs.

You were trying to give Epstein credit for building a great farm system. It's nearly impossible not to with infinite resources. It's not "doing a good job", it's "I showed up for work today and threw money at things".

Fenway
08-25-2011, 03:46 PM
You were trying to give Epstein credit for building a great farm system. It's nearly impossible not to with infinite resources. It's not "doing a good job", it's "I showed up for work today and threw money at things".

You forget it also did it in San Diego ( Towers gave him control ) with limited resources.

At least Ricketts knows his farm system is a joke and will TRY to address it

The White Sox need to do the same.

kittle42
08-25-2011, 03:49 PM
SECOND - If the New England market can support Red Sox ownership going toe to toe with the Yankees then what is the problem? Boston fans pay through the nose to get into Fenway and since the Red Sox budget is ticket sales = payroll then fine.

At least Boston tries to keep up with NY - Baltimore gave up.

On this, we agree. Every fanbase that has bitched about the Yankees and Red Sox for years would be like pigs in **** if their favorite team was in the same financial condition with the same willingness to overspend and the same successes.

Goose
08-25-2011, 03:53 PM
I saw Epstein walk on water once.

DumpJerry
08-25-2011, 03:55 PM
Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to.
What???:o:











:angry:

Fenway
08-25-2011, 04:10 PM
On this, we agree. Every fanbase that has bitched about the Yankees and Red Sox for years would be like pigs in **** if their favorite team was in the same financial condition with the same willingness to overspend and the same successes.

Having resources doesn't translate to success... (NY Mets, Cubs... )

Epstein is far from perfect....but one thing he does very well is keep his mouth shut. Sometimes a GM talks too much...

I think the PERFECT guy to become Cubs GM would be Ned Colletti as he served as the PR director of the team.

russ99
08-25-2011, 04:47 PM
Epstein has some even-keeled hands-off owners, so I have doubts that he'd be able to get the same results with a hands-on emotional owner in Ricketts.

Especially since he's planning on dealing with the GM directly and bypassing a president of baseball operations position.

Also, thanks for the heads-up on TV money. I've always claimed that attendance is a big slice of the overall pie, (along with new media revenue) and not the be-all end-all of how a team is doing financially.

blandman
08-25-2011, 05:01 PM
You forget it also did it in San Diego ( Towers gave him control ) with limited resources.

At least Ricketts knows his farm system is a joke and will TRY to address it

The White Sox need to do the same.

Yes but the Padres spent almost all of their big league resources on development and drafting. He's never been in a position to have to work very hard at anything. The Cubs job would be more of the same. Calling him a good GM....he might be. But nothing he's done as a GM gives merit to that credence. It's all been handed to him.

blandman
08-25-2011, 05:04 PM
Having resources doesn't translate to success... (NY Mets, Cubs... )

Epstein is far from perfect....but one thing he does very well is keep his mouth shut. Sometimes a GM talks too much...

I think the PERFECT guy to become Cubs GM would be Ned Colletti as he served as the PR director of the team.

Having people worse than you doesn't make you good. The job was a cakewalk. I'm sure you or I could step in and have a reasonable chance of doing just as good.

NLaloosh
08-25-2011, 08:33 PM
FIRST - I agree that MANY Red Sox fans under the age of 30 are just brutal to deal with. We hate them more than you do..

SECOND - If the New England market can support Red Sox ownership going toe to toe with the Yankees then what is the problem? Boston fans pay through the nose to get into Fenway and since the Red Sox budget is ticket sales = payroll then fine.

At least Boston tries to keep up with NY - Baltimore gave up.

Since we will never see local TV money split 30 ways and there will never be a hard cap in baseball things are not going to change.

MLB knows that many fans complain there is too much NYY-Boston coverage BUT they also are aware that the teams pull ratings that other teams do not.

Texas is getting close to playing at the Boston-New York level with their new TV deal.

Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to. The Cubs did play at that level but they are the Cubs.


****in A ! Wicked lotta good points !

Now, I'm havin some oystah chowdah in Quincy Mahcut !

TommyJohn
08-25-2011, 11:41 PM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.


But...but...I thought the Red Sox were the scrappy underdog Rebel Alliance? You just made Ken Burns cry. Hope you're happy.

A. Cavatica
08-26-2011, 12:08 AM
Theo Epstein is overrated.

But not as much as the Cubs are.

No way Epstein would be interested in the Cubs when he has the Red Sox job.

Noneck
08-26-2011, 12:16 AM
Reinsdorf could play at that level - The White Sox TV money is now among the highest in MLB, but he chooses not to.

Please tell me more, dollar amount, comparisons to yanks then to other teams.

PalehosePlanet
08-26-2011, 01:55 AM
But not as much as the Cubs are.

No way Epstein would be interested in the Cubs when he has the Red Sox job.

But Theo's ego just might be big enough that he thinks he'll be the one to end the 103 year skid for The Cubs. The infamy of the drought alone gives off the perception that the job is the biggest challenge in pro sports.

Oh well, better men have failed (Green, Himes, etc..) so go ahead and bite the poison apple Theo.

Cangelosi CF
08-26-2011, 08:25 AM
My co-worker's daughter dated Epstein when they were students at Yale. Says he's a good guy, but describes him as "a guy who can step into a pile of (feces) and turn it into gold." Of course, that is not hard to do when you have an unlimited payroll.

IMHO Friedman from Tampa Bay could turn the Coob around. Is his contract up after this year?

DrCrawdad
08-26-2011, 08:31 AM
I've been to White Sox games with the opponents being the Yankees and Red Sox. The Yankees fans were fine. The Red Sox fans were insufferable. "The Red Sox are just in another class of baseball and human beings," (whatever the hell that meant). The fact like they act like the Yankees are the evil big brother is such bull****. I've never been around fans that feel like they deserve to win games and championships because they feel like they are slighted for no reason until I sat around Red Sox fans.

In my experience when the Other Sox visit The Cell it gives Cubbie fans a chance to play dress-up and drag their Other Sox gear out of the closet.

Fenway
08-26-2011, 09:22 AM
Please tell me more, dollar amount, comparisons to yanks then to other teams.

The Yankees are in another world as they command huge subscriber fees and are on systems statewide in NY, all of Connecticut, 65% of New Jersey and northeast Penn (Scranton)

SNY the Mets channel commands far less and has trouble being picked up by cable outlets away from New York.

The White Sox TV money is around 7th or 8th overall ( Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, the 2 LA teams are all closely bunched )

The White Sox and Cubs are now about equal as CSN pays more than WGN does per game ( the White Sox do get hurt by the WCIU games )

On WGN America the Cubs attract about 3 times the viewers as the White Sox with strong viewership in Iowa and Arizona (the Cubs sometimes have higher ratings in Phoenix than the D-Backs )

The White Sox outdraw the Cubs in Indiana, Buffalo (Western NY) and do very well on the west coast of Florida south of Tampa.

asindc
08-26-2011, 09:56 AM
The Yankees are in another world as they command huge subscriber fees and are on systems statewide in NY, all of Connecticut, 65% of New Jersey and northeast Penn (Scranton)

SNY the Mets channel commands far less and has trouble being picked up by cable outlets away from New York.

The White Sox TV money is around 7th or 8th overall ( Boston, Philadelphia, San Francisco, the 2 LA teams are all closely bunched )

The White Sox and Cubs are now about equal as CSN pays more than WGN does per game ( the White Sox do get hurt by the WCIU games )

On WGN America the Cubs attract about 3 times the viewers as the White Sox with strong viewership in Iowa and Arizona (the Cubs sometimes have higher ratings in Phoenix than the D-Backs )

The White Sox outdraw the Cubs in Indiana, Buffalo (Western NY) and do very well on the west coast of Florida south of Tampa.

That does not surprise me.

Foulke You
08-29-2011, 03:22 PM
The White Sox outdraw the Cubs in Indiana, Buffalo (Western NY) and do very well on the west coast of Florida south of Tampa.
This doesn't surprise me either. It always seems as if there are a ton of Sox fans in the house when the team heads to St. Pete to play the Rays. I wonder if a lot of Chicagoans retired in that area?

Lip Man 1
08-29-2011, 03:29 PM
Foulke:

The White Sox held spring training in Sarasota for over 40 years.

Lip

eriqjaffe
08-29-2011, 04:25 PM
This doesn't surprise me either. It always seems as if there are a ton of Sox fans in the house when the team heads to St. Pete to play the Rays. I wonder if a lot of Chicagoans retired in that area?It's people who moved there in anticipation of the Sox moving down there back in the late '80s

C-Dawg
08-30-2011, 08:24 AM
Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

I've been to White Sox games with the opponents being the Yankees and Red Sox. The Yankees fans were fine. The Red Sox fans were insufferable.

I agree 100%. Yankees fans were more-or-less polite and classy, cheered for their team, etc. Not a problem at all. Red Sox fans all showed up in T-shirts proclaiming "(profanity) the Yankees!!". Sorry, dude, the Yankees aren't here, just the White Sox. Leave the clothes with the swears on them at home so my kids don't have to see them.

LongLiveFisk
08-30-2011, 07:52 PM
In my experience when the Other Sox visit The Cell it gives Cubbie fans a chance to play dress-up and drag their Other Sox gear out of the closet.

This is my theory too. I am sure some of them are actual Red Sox fans from Boston but I'll bet a majority of them bleed Cubbie blue.

Frater Perdurabo
08-30-2011, 09:30 PM
In my experience when the Other Sox visit The Cell it gives Cubbie fans a chance to play dress-up and drag their Other Sox gear out of the closet.

This is my theory too. I am sure some of them are actual Red Sox fans from Boston but I'll bet a majority of them bleed Cubbie blue.

I also think that the most obnoxious fans in Red Sox gear are really Cubs fans who think the Cubs and Red Sox have a baseball bromance.

Fenway
08-31-2011, 09:46 AM
I also think that the most obnoxious fans in Red Sox gear are really Cubs fans who think the Cubs and Red Sox have a baseball bromance.

I have a theory about the Red Sox - Cubs connection and have spent enough time in Chicago to think I am on the right track.

Obviously playing in the 2 oldest parks is one but I have a hunch that many Cubs fans who grew up in on the North Shore may have attended school in New England. I can not walk an hour in Cambridge and not see an Evanston Wildkits or New Trier shirt.

I think this also explains why the Red Sox have exploded into a national fanbase. The sheer number of people who went to school in Greater Boston.
It is impossible in this city not to get caught up in Red Sox hysteria and for many college kids it was their baptism to baseball itself even if they were from another area. Throw in that Fenway Park is in Kenmore Sq which is ground zero for many of the area schools with the nightlife and these kids adopted the Red Sox.

When the internet exploded in 1995 the Red Sox quickly became one of the most wired clubs. MLB used a Boston internet company Prospero/Delphi to run their message boards for may years ( a couple of WSI mods can remember those days ) and right from the get go the Red Sox were the most active team on the internet.

However I can also tell you that are a lot of native New Englanders now living in Chicago (Lakeview-Lincoln Park has a ton) and there are several bars that cater to Red Sox fans in the area.

That said I can not excuse the boorish behavior of a small but vocal minority of Red Sox fans who give a bad name to the true fans of the club.

DumpJerry
08-31-2011, 10:00 AM
At last night's Sox/Twins game, there was a grandfather and grandson sitting in Row AA with Red Sox shirts and jerseys (I did not have the heart to tell them the Red Sox game was about 1,000 miles east). Then the people who had the tickets for their seats came, so they moved to Row 1. Then those people arrived, and they moved to Row 2..... All of this took place while the game was going on and it took the Red Sox idiots 10 minutes to figure out where to sit while standing around between me and the infield. :angry:

esbrechtel
08-31-2011, 12:44 PM
It's people who moved there in anticipation of the Sox moving down there back in the late '80s

:roflmao:

shes
09-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Well if they lose Epstein they can promote Cherington, which may be a step up.

Fenway
09-01-2011, 07:09 AM
Theo won't confirm or deny the Cubs rumor

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/09/01/theo_epstein_addresses_cubs_rumors/y

A major issue is Francona makes three million more a year than Theo.

CLUBHOUSE KID
09-01-2011, 11:09 AM
Don't tell that to Red Sox fans who still like to pretend that the Yankees are somehow still an evil Big Brother when the evil Big Brother is actually now a Red Sox-Yankees two-headed monster.

Both franchises suck balls, and Red Sox fans have been far more annoying than Yankees fans in the past decade.

I agree 100%. I know why people hate the Yankees but I think the Red Sox fans are worse than the Yankees. I usually have good talks with them but the Boston fans just annoy the hell out of me. And, even more so now, the Red Sox are spending a lot of money too so they cannot use the woe is me thing any more.

CLUBHOUSE KID
09-01-2011, 11:10 AM
At last night's Sox/Twins game, there was a grandfather and grandson sitting in Row AA with Red Sox shirts and jerseys (I did not have the heart to tell them the Red Sox game was about 1,000 miles east). Then the people who had the tickets for their seats came, so they moved to Row 1. Then those people arrived, and they moved to Row 2..... All of this took place while the game was going on and it took the Red Sox idiots 10 minutes to figure out where to sit while standing around between me and the infield. :angry:

Did they know where to sit or were they just trying to get better seats?

SOXPHILE
09-01-2011, 11:26 AM
I have a theory about the Red Sox - Cubs connection and have spent enough time in Chicago to think I am on the right track.

Obviously playing in the 2 oldest parks is one but I have a hunch that many Cubs fans who grew up in on the North Shore may have attended school in New England. I can not walk an hour in Cambridge and not see an Evanston Wildkits or New Trier shirt.

I think this also explains why the Red Sox have exploded into a national fanbase. The sheer number of people who went to school in Greater Boston.
It is impossible in this city not to get caught up in Red Sox hysteria and for many college kids it was their baptism to baseball itself even if they were from another area. Throw in that Fenway Park is in Kenmore Sq which is ground zero for many of the area schools with the nightlife and these kids adopted the Red Sox.

When the internet exploded in 1995 the Red Sox quickly became one of the most wired clubs. MLB used a Boston internet company Prospero/Delphi to run their message boards for may years ( a couple of WSI mods can remember those days ) and right from the get go the Red Sox were the most active team on the internet.

However I can also tell you that are a lot of native New Englanders now living in Chicago (Lakeview-Lincoln Park has a ton) and there are several bars that cater to Red Sox fans in the area.

That said I can not excuse the boorish behavior of a small but vocal minority of Red Sox fans who give a bad name to the true fans of the club.

The part about both teams playing in old parks is part of it. The rest of this imagined "Bro-mance" comes purely from the Cubs Game Fans side. Before 2004, they both had gone a LONG time without winning a championship. (The White Sox had too, but that was always ignored by the national media, and we didn't bitch and moan about it like they did). The Cubs had their "Billy Goat Curse", the Red Sox had the stupid, made up, (incorrect) "Curse of the Bambino", even though there was no "curse" put on them. Cubs Game Fans took these things: Old parks, long championship droughts, curses, and said "HEY ! They are just like us ! They are the American League version of us ! Our mirror images, our doppelgangers ! We love them, and they love us too ! We are in this together !" , when in actuality, Boston fans, even the frat boys and trixies who's behaviour makes people vomit,- do not see it the same way, couldn't care less about anything having to do with the Cubs, and actually laugh at them, just like everyone else does. Since the Red Sox won it all in '04 and again in '07, it's even more ridiculous, and even more so a figment of the Cubs Game Fans imaginations.

C-Dawg
09-01-2011, 01:35 PM
Boston fans, even the frat boys and trixies who's behaviour makes people vomit,- do not see it the same way, couldn't care less about anything having to do with the Cubs, and actually laugh at them, just like everyone else does.

Exactly! The so-called "link" between the teams is strictly a one-way street - Cub fans are trying to ride the coattails of a Red Sox championship (and such "link" didn't even exist prior to October of 2004).

Boers & Bernstein did a really funny segment about the fake Red Sox-Cubs "link" at some point during the 2005 season, when all of Cub Nation was convinced that it was now their turn, since, after all, Boston won it all the year before. They suggested asking a real Red Sox fan, in Boston, if he felt any special kinship with those fans here in Chicago. The answer was, of course, an emphatic NO!

October26
09-02-2011, 07:09 AM
Theo won't confirm or deny the Cubs rumor

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/09/01/theo_epstein_addresses_cubs_rumors/y

A major issue is Francona makes three million more a year than Theo.

The link didn't work for me but your post suggests that Epstein wants a raise. As rich and profitable as the Red Sox currently are, there should be no reason why they don't "show Theo the money."

As for Theo going to the Cubs, I think he'll feel right at home there. I've been to both Fenway & Wrigley and in my opinion these two ballparks do have alot in common, including a very distinct odor which I like to describe as urine-beer- vomit-aroma. So, if and when Theo assumes the Cubs GM job, he should feel right at home at Fenway Park West.

Fenway
09-02-2011, 11:17 AM
The link didn't work for me but your post suggests that Epstein wants a raise. As rich and profitable as the Red Sox currently are, there should be no reason why they don't "show Theo the money."

As for Theo going to the Cubs, I think he'll feel right at home there. I've been to both Fenway & Wrigley and in my opinion these two ballparks do have alot in common, including a very distinct odor which I like to describe as urine-beer- vomit-aroma. So, if and when Theo assumes the Cubs GM job, he should feel right at home at Fenway Park West.

Link changed
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/08/epstein_address.html

Theo and Larry Lucchino have been at odds in the past about who runs the ballclub...

Plus Theo is married now and he may well be sick of living in the fishbowl of Boston sports....Chicago could make his personal life easier.

southside rocks
09-02-2011, 09:32 PM
Oh please. The ghost of Ron Santo will run the Cubs before Theo Epstein so much as interviews for the job.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/02/sports/baseball/epstein-or-cashman-moving-on-not-likely.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=epstein%20to%20cubs&st=cse

DirtySox
10-01-2011, 02:58 PM
Joelsherman1 Joel Sherman
I am shocked, but in last 36 hrs every exec talk to says believe #Redsox will give permssion and Theo will go to #Cubs to be GM
3 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

dickallen15
10-01-2011, 03:32 PM
Link changed
http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/08/epstein_address.html

Theo and Larry Lucchino have been at odds in the past about who runs the ballclub...

Plus Theo is married now and he may well be sick of living in the fishbowl of Boston sports....Chicago could make his personal life easier.

If getting out of a fishbowl existence by coming to Chicago and trying to become the Cubs' savior is the goal, I think Theo is going to be a bit dissappointed. I wouldn't doubt he comes, but he's going to be the rockstar with huge expectations.

Fenway
10-01-2011, 04:02 PM
Rob Neyer chimes in

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/10/1/2462403/theo-epstein-red-sox-cubs-rumor

DumpJerry
10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
So, will Theo be Savior Number 367 for the Cubbies?

Doesn't he know that it's the day games that kills that team?

Fenway
10-01-2011, 07:43 PM
It now seems very possible Epstein AND Francona may BOTH go to the Cubs and possibly Larry Lucchino as team president. If that happens you can bet Janet Marie Smith will go do her magic on Wrigley.

The lead owner John Henry has not said a word in public and was not at the ownership press conference yesterday as he was injured on his boat. :?:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_1001henry_heads_to_hospital_after_yacht_misha p/srvc=home&position=7

DumpJerry
10-01-2011, 07:59 PM
It now seems very possible Epstein AND Francona may BOTH go to the Cubs and possibly Larry Lucchino as team president. If that happens you can bet Janet Marie Smith will go do her magic on Wrigley.

The lead owner John Henry has not said a word in public and was not at the ownership press conference yesterday as he was injured on his boat. :?:

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/2011_1001henry_heads_to_hospital_after_yacht_misha p/srvc=home&position=7
Let's see what they can do when there isn't $1,000,000,000+ cash available to buy any free agent and top flight scouting staff they want.

Fenway
10-01-2011, 08:27 PM
Let's see what they can do when there isn't $1,000,000,000+ cash available to buy any free agent and top flight scouting staff they want.

http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/assets_c/2011/09/titofinncard-thumb-225x315-52043.jpg

palehozenychicty
10-01-2011, 08:31 PM
Let's see what they can do when there isn't $1,000,000,000+ cash available to buy any free agent and top flight scouting staff they want.

Indeed. The Cubs have so many bad contracts right now along with an even more clueless owner than the Tribune, any executive slobbering over the ivy will find dry leaves in a short while.

Epstein, for all the media pontificating over the Red Sox scouting and development, had NO starting pitchers or position players to call up the last two years when they fell short of the postseason. Nobody.

They should call Sweet Lou in Tampa or Dusty Baker or Hendry to see their opinions. :tongue:

Soxman219
10-01-2011, 08:37 PM
The Cubs are in such a bad position right now. Bad contracts, owners who have no idea what's going on, and bad scouts everywhere. I hope this happens though. One, to see what the "Great" Epstein does with the Cubs; and two, it weakens the Red Sox.

soxinem1
10-02-2011, 12:39 PM
Knock him all you want but he has developed a top notch farm system...

With low draft picks as well. Theo's signings are often crap (Drew, Lackey, Dice-K, etc) but his minor league operation is among the best. Generally when these players arrive, they are in the majors to stay and perform well once they suit up.

The excuse here was that the White Sox would be successful enough to get low draft position, yet BOS and NYY usually pick even lower.

They also invest heavily in scouting internationally, so they sign free agent players that are not drafted.

Sure, I would like to see how well Theo does in a situation like PIT, KC, or HOU where he cannot just buy the missing links, but to be fair, he has made that farm system top notch.


Oh please. The ghost of Ron Santo will run the Cubs before Theo Epstein so much as interviews for the job.

Don't be too sure about that. Having a GM that has a history of building two World Champions for a team that hasn't won since before television is a nice little part of his resume, and doing it in a crappy, crumbling park to boot.

If it happens, we'll see if the Billy Goat curse is stronger than the Great Bambino curse.

soltrain21
10-02-2011, 02:52 PM
With low draft picks as well. Theo's signings are often crap (Drew, Lackey, Dice-K, etc) but his minor league operation is among the best. Generally when these players arrive, they are in the majors to stay and perform well once they suit up.

The excuse here was that the White Sox would be successful enough to get low draft position, yet BOS and NYY usually pick even lower.

They also invest heavily in scouting internationally, so they sign free agent players that are not drafted.

Sure, I would like to see how well Theo does in a situation like PIT, KC, or HOU where he cannot just buy the missing links, but to be fair, he has made that farm system top notch.




Don't be too sure about that. Having a GM that has a history of building two World Champions for a team that hasn't won since before television is a nice little part of his resume, and doing it in a crappy, crumbling park to boot.

If it happens, we'll see if the Billy Goat curse is stronger than the Great Bambino curse.

Having low draft picks have nothing to do with how good you draft in the MLB. The Red Sox draft well because, once again, they spend a **** ton of money. They pay for guys that other teams aren't willing to pay for.

DumpJerry
10-02-2011, 03:10 PM
Having low draft picks have nothing to do with how good you draft in the MLB. The Red Sox draft well because, once again, they spend a **** ton of money. They pay for guys that other teams aren't willing to pay for.
Not willing to pay for, it's able to pay for. The Red Sox have over a billion dollars at their disposal. Given that checkbook, a monkey can put together a World Series contender.

Boondock Saint
10-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Not willing to pay for, it's able to pay for. The Red Sox have over a billion dollars at their disposal. Given that checkbook, a monkey can put together a World Series contender.

If you put the money into scouting/drafting (and draft properly), you don't have to spend so much on big free agent signings.

DumpJerry
10-02-2011, 03:34 PM
If you put the money into scouting/drafting (and draft properly), you don't have to spend so much on big free agent signings.
But, if you can put big bucks into both.......

Fenway
10-02-2011, 04:41 PM
Having low draft picks have nothing to do with how good you draft in the MLB. The Red Sox draft well because, once again, they spend a **** ton of money. They pay for guys that other teams aren't willing to pay for.

http://angels.ocregister.com/files/2009/12/john-lackey-as-red-sox-by-ap-239x300.jpghttp://www.4sportboston.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/alg_theo_epstein_carl_crawford.jpg

doublem23
10-02-2011, 10:25 PM
Having low draft picks have nothing to do with how good you draft in the MLB. The Red Sox draft well because, once again, they spend a **** ton of money. They pay for guys that other teams aren't willing to pay for.

And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within.

DSpivack
10-02-2011, 10:38 PM
And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within.

And if he goes to the Cubs, he'll take on a job with quite a few bad contracts of their own.

palehozenychicty
10-02-2011, 10:50 PM
And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within.

Exactly. All of these great farm prospects have been traded away or are deep in the low minors. The fact that they couldn't pull up one guy to start is astonishing.

gosox41
10-02-2011, 11:07 PM
Having low draft picks have nothing to do with how good you draft in the MLB. The Red Sox draft well because, once again, they spend a **** ton of money. They pay for guys that other teams aren't willing to pay for.


So what's wrong with that phlisophy. It makes economic sense. Drafting the most talented players and paying them out of their 'slot' makes perfect sense to me. Sure they may not make it, but if a couple make it you come out way ahead.

Let's say you draft a pitcher and sign him for $3M. Let's say he turns out to be a number one starter for you. You have him under control for 6 years. Even if he's a Super 2 player, he'll make some where in the neighborhood of $35M or so (inculding signing bonus) if he plays out arbitration yearly.

Or you can go into the free agent market and spend $90M + to sign a #1 pitcher for the same 6 year time frame. It's actually over $100M as #1's get $18-20M a year.

Now if the pitcher blows out his arm or flops, the team is out $3M. So they are spending $3M on a talented pitcher to hopefuly save $50M + if he lives up to his potential.

Or look at it from a White Sox fan's perspective. We can spend $1.5-$2M each year on first round picks to have Chris Sale to show for it (and the jury is out on him as a starter) or we can risk $1.5M more per year to get a top tier player. Even if he turns out to be a#3 starter you come out ahead.

But what's the point of drafting for your slot to waste $1.5M for players who don't do jack at the major league level?

Bob

DumpJerry
10-02-2011, 11:24 PM
And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within.
Early on, it was looking like Crawford and Dunn were interchangeable. Then Crawford starting hitting and finished with a .255 BA. Overpaid.

doublem23
10-03-2011, 12:50 AM
Early on, it was looking like Crawford and Dunn were interchangeable. Then Crawford starting hitting and finished with a .255 BA. Overpaid.

Yeah, but Crawford's contract is far and away worse than Dunn's. We owe Adam $44 million until the end of the 2014 season. Boston owes Crawford $122 million until the end of 2017. That's 3x more money over a 2x longer period of time.

DumpJerry
10-03-2011, 07:43 AM
Yeah, but Crawford's contract is far and away worse than Dunn's. We owe Adam $44 million until the end of the 2014 season. Boston owes Crawford $122 million until the end of 2017. That's 3x more money over a 2x longer period of time.
Hopefully **** like this, Rios and Dunn will cause GMs to think twice before inking one of those monster contracts. I guess you could add Zito to the list, too (I would say Soriano, but Cub fans tell me he earned his salary the first couple of years because it was he who put the team on his back for stretches when nobody else was showing up).

SI1020
10-03-2011, 08:46 AM
And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within. Yes Theo is a genius and Kenny is a dunce.

Moses_Scurry
10-03-2011, 08:57 AM
This reminds me so much of the Brian Roberts/Jake Peavy/Albert Pujols megarumors for the cubbies. Everybody would be a fool to not want to go to the cubs. Yet Roberts is still an Oriole, Peavy is on the Sox, and I bet Albert stays a Cardinal. I predict that in 2012, Theo will be with the Red Saux, Friedman will be with the Rays, Quade will still be manager of the cubs, and their GM will either be a retread (Coletti) or a new face (someone like Hahn).

asindc
10-03-2011, 09:01 AM
And what did that get them this year? They have absolutely no organizational depth, I mean, they were flirting with the idea of trading for Bruce Chen to start in the 1-game playoff before Papelbon's chokejob. And how many FAs have they signed in the past few years that would have absolutely killed any other team in the league with the exception of their Evil Empire Blood Brother?

Our Sox are being crushed by the weight of 3 bad deals, look at the Sawx, Crawford, Lackey, Drew, Matsuzaka, arguably Beckett... These guys are crazy overpaid. If Theo leaves, he's going to find that it's a lot tougher out there when you have to live within the rules that 28 of the 30 MLB teams have to play within.

Epstein gets even the smaller FA deals wrong. Renteria, Lugo, and Cameron (strictly a sabermetric signing) have also backfired on him. They actually ate Renteria's and Lugo's entire salaries to get rid of them, and they still had SS issues with Lowrie. But as noted, the biggest overall blunder by Epstein was not having any pitching depth at all to call upon the past two seasons down the stretch, either starters or relievers. In some sense, their roster is similar to ours in that if our big-money veteran acquisitions fail to produce, it almost does not matter what the rest of the team does, we are doomed.

Fenway
10-04-2011, 12:39 PM
IF the Flubs want Theo what will they give the Red Sox?

If Theo Epstein flees, price must be high (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/04/red_sox_should_hold_out_for_big_package_for_theo_e pstein/?p1=News_links)

Lip Man 1
10-04-2011, 07:48 PM
ESPN.com reporting Cubs have formally asked for permission to speak to him. Story quotes a source close to him as saying he'd be interested in either the Cubs or Angels but only if "president" were added to the title.

Lip

Fenway
10-04-2011, 07:51 PM
ESPN.com reporting Cubs have formally asked for permission to speak to him. Story quotes a source close to him as saying he'd be interested in either the Cubs or Angels but only if "president" were added to the title.

Lip

It is a Boston Globe story

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/cubs_ask_permis.html

Shaughnessy is close to Tom Werner and Lucchino. NOBODY is close to Henry.

Fenway
10-04-2011, 07:57 PM
followup

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2011/10/04/one_way_or_another_sox_need_to_speak_up/

DumpJerry
10-04-2011, 11:12 PM
Heard an interesting analysis of the situation tonight on The Score. It comes down to what school of thought you want your GM to have. The person was saying that Epstein and Rick Hahn have similar approaches to the game, so Hahn would probably be desirable since he would demand a lower price.

DirtySox
10-04-2011, 11:18 PM
Heard an interesting analysis of the situation tonight on The Score. It comes down to what school of thought you want your GM to have. The person was saying that Epstein and Rick Hahn have similar approaches to the game, so Hahn would probably be desirable since he would demand a lower price.

Interesting. I'd think Cherington has to be the frontrunner if Theo goes though.

A. Cavatica
10-04-2011, 11:42 PM
Yes, Boston media reporting Sawx "would not hesitate" to promote Cherington.

Fenway
10-05-2011, 05:47 PM
Yes, Boston media reporting Sawx "would not hesitate" to promote Cherington.

Gammons talks at length about it.

http://audio.weei.com/a/46700807/peter-gammons-mlb-insider.htm

soltrain21
10-05-2011, 06:31 PM
So what's wrong with that phlisophy. It makes economic sense. Drafting the most talented players and paying them out of their 'slot' makes perfect sense to me. Sure they may not make it, but if a couple make it you come out way ahead.

Let's say you draft a pitcher and sign him for $3M. Let's say he turns out to be a number one starter for you. You have him under control for 6 years. Even if he's a Super 2 player, he'll make some where in the neighborhood of $35M or so (inculding signing bonus) if he plays out arbitration yearly.

Or you can go into the free agent market and spend $90M + to sign a #1 pitcher for the same 6 year time frame. It's actually over $100M as #1's get $18-20M a year.

Now if the pitcher blows out his arm or flops, the team is out $3M. So they are spending $3M on a talented pitcher to hopefuly save $50M + if he lives up to his potential.

Or look at it from a White Sox fan's perspective. We can spend $1.5-$2M each year on first round picks to have Chris Sale to show for it (and the jury is out on him as a starter) or we can risk $1.5M more per year to get a top tier player. Even if he turns out to be a#3 starter you come out ahead.

But what's the point of drafting for your slot to waste $1.5M for players who don't do jack at the major league level?

Bob

When did I say there was anything wrong with the philosophy?

thomas35forever
10-05-2011, 09:55 PM
I just got a text from a friend claiming both Epstein and Hahn are coming to the Cubs. Don't believe it.

A. Cavatica
10-05-2011, 10:28 PM
I just got a text from a friend claiming both Epstein and Hahn are coming to the Cubs. Don't believe it.

Where would they play them?

getonbckthr
10-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Where would they play them?
Epstien President replacing Crane Kenny and Hahn replacing Hendry.

Fenway
10-07-2011, 11:06 AM
Red Sox ownership talk about Theo and will not confirm the Cubs have asked

http://audio.weei.com/a/46761917/john-henry-and-larry-lucchino-answer-questions-about-theo-epstein.htm

Fenway
10-08-2011, 05:24 PM
Theo Epstein’s an 800-pound gorilla in the room

If he’s itching for Wrigley ivy, let him go (http://bostonherald.com/sports/columnists/view.bg?articleid=1371785&srvc=sports&position=3)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/319533_2381906979797_1014362077_32724263_154166509 6_n.jpg

DirtySox
10-09-2011, 12:19 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-1009-gm-cubs-chicago--20111009,0,1309358.story

This is just awful reporting. Kind of pathetic actually.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2011, 01:43 PM
I hope Epstein goes to the Cubs...it will make his eventual failure even more noteworthy showing that like Cashman it's all about being able to buy whatever you need and if it blows up in your face, you go out and buy some more.

Lip

dickallen15
10-09-2011, 01:52 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/cubs/ct-spt-1009-gm-cubs-chicago--20111009,0,1309358.story

This is just awful reporting. Kind of pathetic actually.
What's funny about that article was I was working out at Equinox yesterday morning and I saw someone I thought was Theo at the gym. I got a closer look and I'm pretty sure it wasn't. Then I read that article. Maybe it was.

DirtySox
10-09-2011, 01:54 PM
I hope Epstein goes to the Cubs...it will make his eventual failure even more noteworthy showing that like Cashman it's all about being able to buy whatever you need and if it blows up in your face, you go out and buy some more.

Lip

Many people keep saying this, but won't he have similar resources with the Cubs? Is the plan for the Cubs to cut payroll considerably? They splurged on the draft this year and they plan to continue doing so. He might not have as much money to play with as in Boston, but I'd imagine the Cubs will continue to be a top payroll team, at least in the $100 million range.

Fenway
10-09-2011, 02:25 PM
I hope Epstein goes to the Cubs...it will make his eventual failure even more noteworthy showing that like Cashman it's all about being able to buy whatever you need and if it blows up in your face, you go out and buy some more.

Lip

What Ricketts needs right now is a GM/COO to walk into Alderman Tom Tunney's office on Belmont and say 'We need the landmark laws changed now or we move outside the city.'

The City of Boston was upset when the Red Sox started to put more ad signs in the park but Larry Lucchino simply said 'Hey we only doing what they did years ago'.

http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy90/Bucket2NYY/FenwayPark1942-1.jpg

The Tribune didn't really care about landmark restrictions on Wrigley as they had no debt service. Rickets is drowning with debt.

Look at all the hoops they had to go through to put in ONE Toyota sign.

Theo will not leave Boston unless he has TOTAL control. He does not have that in Boston...it is very obvious that Carl Crawford at that price was all of John Henry's doing to shut the media up about his buying Liverpool.

WhiteSox5187
10-09-2011, 02:42 PM
What Ricketts needs right now is a GM/COO to walk into Alderman Tom Tunney's office on Belmont and say 'We need the landmark laws changed now or we move outside the city.'


And the city would say "See ya," because there is no way the Cubs would carry through on that threat. It would be suicide for the Cubs.

Fenway
10-09-2011, 02:52 PM
And the city would say "See ya," because there is no way the Cubs would carry through on that threat. It would be suicide for the Cubs.

It may be suicide to STAY in Chicago without stadium revenue streams.

If they built in Rosemont, Park Ridge, Morton Grove or Des Plains they would still be close to the heart of Cubdom. The fans may cry a little....but they would follow.


The Yankees played the New Jersey card and got millions from the City of New York.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2011, 05:58 PM
Dirty:

As leveraged as he is financially right now the last thing Cub fans are going to see with Ricketts is a 150 million dollar a year payroll.

Plus he's already told the media that the money is going to be invested into the minor league system instead of at the big league level.

Let's see how the "boy wonder / savior" deals with that.

Lip

getonbckthr
10-09-2011, 06:04 PM
Dirty:

As leveraged as he is financially right now the last thing Cub fans are going to see with Ricketts is a 150 million dollar a year payroll.

Plus he's already told the media that the money is going to be invested into the minor league system instead of at the big league level.

Let's see how the "boy wonder / savior" deals with that.

Lip
Maybe i'm wrong but wasn't Boston's 1st world series built on home grown talent and good trades that Theo was behind? A lot of people say Theo much prefers building his team opposed to maintaining it, whatever that means really.

Fenway
10-09-2011, 06:07 PM
Dirty:

As leveraged as he is financially right now the last thing Cub fans are going to see with Ricketts is a 150 million dollar a year payroll.

Plus he's already told the media that the money is going to be invested into the minor league system instead of at the big league level.

Let's see how the "boy wonder / savior" deals with that.

Lip

That is actually his strong point. Older talent..not so much

DirtySox
10-09-2011, 06:20 PM
That is actually his strong point. Older talent..not so much

Indeed. And I find it hard to believe the Cubs are going to be unwilling to spend completely. A $100 million payroll or somewhere near it is quite feasible. Some posters are making it sound like Theo would potentially be taking over with a Pirates/Marlins like level of financial flexibility.

Fenway
10-09-2011, 06:37 PM
Maybe i'm wrong but wasn't Boston's 1st world series built on home grown talent and good trades that Theo was behind? A lot of people say Theo much prefers building his team opposed to maintaining it, whatever that means really.

Theo had the hardcore units of Duquette's team but he did trade for Schilling, picked up Foulke and pulled the trigger on the Nomar trade.

Oh ya on deadline day he picked up Dave Roberts...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_90f9CzHkANo/S9-iuJ2uIlI/AAAAAAAACTI/hKQr3hmeukE/s1600/the_steal.jpg

Fenway
10-09-2011, 06:38 PM
Indeed. And I find it hard to believe the Cubs are going to be unwilling to spend completely. A $100 million payroll or somewhere near it is quite feasible. Some posters are making it sound like Theo would potentially be taking over with a Pirates/Marlins like level of financial flexibility.

As White Sox fans who would you rather have - Kenny or Theo?

Lip Man 1
10-09-2011, 06:39 PM
Dirty:

I'm not making that claim but the Cub payroll at least in the immediate future is going to be a lot less than it is now and FAR less then he's used to working with in Boston where he can go out and buy more guys to make up for the signings that don't work out.

If he takes the Cubs job he's going to be in a very different enviroment than what he's used to in Boston and there's no guarantee he won't fall on his face because of it.

Lip

Fenway
10-09-2011, 06:48 PM
Dirty:

I'm not making that claim but the Cub payroll at least in the immediate future is going to be a lot less than it is now and FAR less then he's used to working with in Boston where he can go out and buy more guys to make up for the signings that don't work out.

If he takes the Cubs job he's going to be in a very different enviroment than what he's used to in Boston and there's no guarantee he won't fall on his face because of it.

Lip


He also will not be in the same division as the Yankees.

He also won't have Bill James whispering in the owners ear which is a big part of the problem in Boston.

Daver
10-09-2011, 07:06 PM
As White Sox fans who would you rather have - Kenny or Theo?

Larry Himes.

Frater Perdurabo
10-09-2011, 07:24 PM
Larry Himes.

What is he doing nowadays?

getonbckthr
10-09-2011, 08:12 PM
As White Sox fans who would you rather have - Kenny or Theo?
Theo and in my mind it isn't even that close.

Lip Man 1
10-09-2011, 08:25 PM
Geton:

Depends on how much the pay roll is.

Kenny for all of his faults (and brother he's got a lot) has shown he can actually win a title with a modest payroll. Theo bought his way to a pair with Boston's unlimited resources.

If the payroll is huge, Theo...if it isn't Kenny.

Lip

JC456
10-10-2011, 12:04 PM
I have to laugh out loud at the current effort ongoing by the Cubs to get the GM from the Boston Red Sox. Only the Cubs! have to have the guy someone else has! And it never works!

cub killer
10-10-2011, 03:46 PM
Moving to What's the Score in 3, 2, 1...

hi im skot
10-10-2011, 03:48 PM
Wait...what?

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 03:54 PM
I have to laugh out loud at the current effort ongoing by the Cubs to get the GM from the Boston Red Sox. Only the Cubs! have to have the guy someone else has! And it never works!

Moving to What's the Score in 3, 2, 1...

Wait...what?
Hey JC, do we really need two threads on this topic?

MUsoxfan
10-10-2011, 05:39 PM
Geton:

Depends on how much the pay roll is.

Kenny for all of his faults (and brother he's got a lot) has shown he can actually win a title with a modest payroll. Theo bought his way to a pair with Boston's unlimited resources.

If the payroll is huge, Theo...if it isn't Kenny.

Lip


I'd hardly consider the Sox payroll to be "modest".

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 05:54 PM
I'd hardly consider the Sox payroll to be "modest".
In 2005, it was modest. That is to what Lip was referring.

Fenway
10-10-2011, 06:55 PM
In 2005, it was modest. That is to what Lip was referring.

They were #13th

http://www.baseballchronology.com/Baseball/Years/2005/Payroll.asp

But it was the highest in the AL Central

Bob Roarman
10-10-2011, 08:04 PM
Yeah then they jumped up over 100 million the next season I believe, which was top 5 highest.

DumpJerry
10-10-2011, 08:14 PM
Yeah then they jumped up over 100 million the next season I believe, which was top 5 highest.
...which is completely irrelevant to what happened in 2005.

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 06:54 PM
Theo on brink of joining Cubs. Not sure if it warrants another thread yet.

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view.bg?articleid=1372633&pos=breaking

thomas35forever
10-11-2011, 07:00 PM
I've got one friend who says he's doing back flips over this. Just give 'em the Commissioner's Trophy now I guess.

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 07:03 PM
I've got one friend who says he's doing back flips over this. Just give 'em the Commissioner's Trophy now I guess.

Pretty exciting for them if true. He will be able to keep pumping money into the draft with the Cubs, but with a lesser payroll for the big league club presumably.

Boston will be due some form of viable compensation too. Something pretty worthwhile I'd imagine.

kevingrt
10-11-2011, 07:03 PM
Anyone else purchasing there 2015 Wrigley Field World Series tickets yet?

Lip Man 1
10-11-2011, 07:19 PM
LOL.

Lip

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 07:23 PM
Anyone else purchasing there 2015 Wrigley Field World Series tickets yet?

Chances seem much better than with Hendry, no?

soltrain21
10-11-2011, 07:29 PM
Chances seem much better than with Hendry, no?

Correct. Yuck it up all you want, but this is a good move for them.

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 07:33 PM
Correct. Yuck it up all you want, but this is a good move for them.

Indeed. I see a team getting a top flight GM. He won't have Boston's resources, but he will have more than enough money to spend. He also doesn't have to deal with the Yankees anymore. I'm not much of a Cubs fan, but they have reason to be excited.

soxnut1018
10-11-2011, 07:49 PM
Something from twitter that made me laugh: "It sounds like the Cubs are just five outs from getting Theo Epstein."

Fenway
10-11-2011, 07:49 PM
Boston Herald says Theo could be the GM of the Cubs in the next 24-48 hours

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_1011headlinegoes/srvc=home&position=6

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 07:53 PM
Boston Herald says Theo could be the GM of the Cubs in the next 24-48 hours

http://bostonherald.com/sports/baseball/red_sox/view/2011_1011headlinegoes/srvc=home&position=6

Slow on the draw again Fens.

Fenway
10-11-2011, 07:56 PM
Pretty exciting for them if true. He will be able to keep pumping money into the draft with the Cubs, but with a lesser payroll for the big league club presumably.

Boston will be due some form of viable compensation too. Something pretty worthwhile I'd imagine.

Cubs have to take Lackey and Crawford

g0g0
10-11-2011, 08:01 PM
He's already broken an 80+ year curse - what's a 100+ year curse to him? :tongue:

Get it done...NOW> GO CUBS!

Fenway
10-11-2011, 08:06 PM
Boston Globe had Cafardo at Starbucks on Addison all day :tongue:

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/no_coffee_for_t.html

Fenway
10-11-2011, 08:41 PM
Does Ricketts rob the piggy bank for Albert Pujols? I am sure Epstein has asked that question.

DSpivack
10-11-2011, 08:58 PM
Does Ricketts rob the piggy bank for Albert Pujols? I am sure Epstein has asked that question.

I doubt it. I don't see them having a high-enough payroll to do so.

Fenway
10-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Epstein not out the door — yet
Posted by Peter Abraham, Globe Staff October 11, 2011 08:25 PM (http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/epstein_not_out.html)


Epstein close to leaving Sox, heading to Cubs (http://www.csnne.com/10/11/11/Epstein-close-to-leaving-Sox-heading-to-/landing_redsox.html?blockID=575848&feedID=3352)

Fenway
10-11-2011, 09:15 PM
NY Daily News says done deal

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/2011/10/11/2011-10-11_theo_epstein_headed_to_chicago_cubs_to_become_g eneral_manager_leaves_boston_red_.html

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 09:18 PM
I wonder if the Sawx could get Brett Jackson out of this.

tstrike2000
10-11-2011, 09:34 PM
Not a bad move for the Cubs. Wonder if the Red Sox will promote from within.

DSpivack
10-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Not a bad move for the Cubs. Wonder if the Red Sox will promote from within.

Everything I've read of late says Cherington will move up to GM.

kobo
10-11-2011, 09:54 PM
Good move for the Cubs, wonder if this means Francona is manager next season? I hope so, it will just make the inevitable failure that much sweeter.

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 10:03 PM
Good move for the Cubs, wonder if this means Francona is manager next season? I hope so, it will just make the inevitable failure that much sweeter.

Nope. Media outlets are reporting Francona isn't an option.

I bet Martinez is in play.

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 10:32 PM
GordonEdes Gordon Edes
by ChiTribRogers
If Theo goes to Chi, Sandberg will be favorite to be named manager. Theo tried to hire Sandberg for Pawtucket last winter
14 minutes ago Favorite Retweet Reply

Theo and Sandberg? Cubs fans are going to be on cloud nine.

g0g0
10-11-2011, 10:59 PM
Theo and Sandberg? Cubs fans are going to be on cloud nine.

+1 :praying:

DumpJerry
10-11-2011, 11:01 PM
Cub fans who will be dancing in the streets might want to remember that the 2004 and 2007 World Series titles would not have been possible for three people or "things:"
1. Ortiz
2. Ramirez
3. The steroids numbers 1 and 2 used.

Oh yeah. That stuff.

ilsox7
10-11-2011, 11:02 PM
Theo and Sandberg? Cubs fans are going to be on cloud nine.

Would be the biggest PR coup in sports in a long, long time.

SCCWS
10-11-2011, 11:04 PM
Sounds like a done deal according to New England media

DirtySox
10-11-2011, 11:07 PM
Sounds like a done deal according to New England media

Now we wait and see which of the two Chicago baseball teams returns to relevancy first. Neither are looking too hot for the near future.

g0g0
10-11-2011, 11:09 PM
Cub fans who will be dancing in the streets might want to remember that the 2004 and 2007 World Series titles would not have been possible for three people or "things:"
1. Ortiz
2. Ramirez
3. The steroids numbers 1 and 2 used.

Oh yeah. That stuff.

C'mon, we had one of the best roiders in Sosa and still couldn't get it done. Just bad luck I guess... :wink:

DumpJerry
10-11-2011, 11:12 PM
C'mon, we had one of the best roiders in Sosa and still couldn't get it done. Just bad luck I guess... :wink:
1<2. It's simple math.

Brian26
10-11-2011, 11:20 PM
1<2. It's simple math.

Papi and Manny weren't the only ones juicing on that '04 team.

Lip Man 1
10-11-2011, 11:34 PM
Cub fans may be on cloud nine but they are still going to be in fourth place with the "boy wonder" or without him.

Lip

thomas35forever
10-11-2011, 11:49 PM
Cub fans may be on cloud nine but they are still going to be in fourth place with the "boy wonder" or without him.

Lip
How dare you attempt to bring down the joy of the most deserving fan base in sports!

slavko
10-11-2011, 11:57 PM
How dare you attempt to bring down the joy of the most deserving fan base in sports!

It's what we do.

DirtySox
10-12-2011, 12:34 AM
Cub fans may be on cloud nine but they are still going to be in fourth place with the "boy wonder" or without him.

Lip

Perhaps for the next year or two. The same might be said for the Sox. I'd be surprised if Theo doesn't turn it around given some time to sort out remaining mess he's inherited.

DSpivack
10-12-2011, 01:23 AM
Perhaps for the next year or two. The same might be said for the Sox. I'd be surprised if Theo doesn't turn it around given some time to sort out remaining mess he's inherited.

Beyond next season, their only bad contract in the long run is Soriano, so the big club doesn't seem so bad off.

But they don't have much down in the minors, either, do they? Or much young talent in general beyond maybe Starlin Castro & Andrew Cashner?

Fenway
10-12-2011, 01:26 AM
Cub fans may be on cloud nine but they are still going to be in fourth place with the "boy wonder" or without him.

Lip

Maybe for the next 2 years...but Epstein will win a pennant before the White Sox will.

JR doesn't care anymore - the Ventura signing proves that.

tstrike2000
10-12-2011, 01:38 AM
Maybe for the next 2 years...but Epstein will win a pennant before the White Sox will.

JR doesn't care anymore - the Ventura signing proves that.

With the roster the way it is, Ventura may be the least of the Sox worries.

DirtySox
10-12-2011, 01:38 AM
Beyond next season, their only bad contract in the long run is Soriano, so the big club doesn't seem so bad off.

But they don't have much down in the minors, either, do they? Or much young talent in general beyond maybe Starlin Castro & Andrew Cashner?

They actually had a top third farm system before the Garza trade lopped off some prospects. The system had a down year this season, but it's still about average I'd say. Not much immediate help available, but Brett Jackson is about ready to take over in CF. They've also decided to invest quite heavily in the draft, with $12 million in bonus expenditures in 2011 ($9 million more than the Sox). Theo will be able to spend just as much, perhaps more than he did with Boston in that regard. Even if the major league payroll is a bit less than he's used to, I think he's stepping into a pretty favorable situation. They won't be winning anything next season, but beyond that I see reason to be optimistic.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 02:14 AM
With the roster the way it is, Ventura may be the least of the Sox worries.

The White Sox minor league system is a disaster.

KW walked away from the Dave Wilder fiasco clean...which honestly NO CHICAGO WRITER WANTS TO TOUCH.

Epstein works on one principle - if you make the playoffs you have a 12.5% chance of winning it all.

That worked for Kenny in 2006 - Chicago caught the Red Sox rotation in tatters and LAA was suspect to begin with - The Astros were easy.

Epstein wanted to hire Ryne Sandberg for Pawtucket so.....

The HUGE advantage is - there is no NYY complex in the NL Central - Theo should be able to get the Cubs into the post season within 2 years...and then.

Please believe me when I say I wish Theo was going to 35th St and not Addison. Ricketts wants to win it all.... I really have doubts JR does.

Whitesox029
10-12-2011, 02:53 AM
The White Sox minor league system is a disaster.

KW walked away from the Dave Wilder fiasco clean...which honestly NO CHICAGO WRITER WANTS TO TOUCH.

Epstein works on one principle - if you make the playoffs you have a 12.5% chance of winning it all.

That worked for Kenny in 2006 - Chicago caught the Red Sox rotation in tatters and LAA was suspect to begin with - The Astros were easy.

Epstein wanted to hire Ryne Sandberg for Pawtucket so.....

The HUGE advantage is - there is no NYY complex in the NL Central - Theo should be able to get the Cubs into the post season within 2 years...and then.

Please believe me when I say I wish Theo was going to 35th St and not Addison. Ricketts wants to win it all.... I really have doubts JR does.
If JR doesn't care about winning, then why did he throw a whole bunch of money at Kenny Williams last offseason? I really can't think of any other explanation. I maintain that no Cubs owner has any reason at all to actually try to win until their dumbass fans actually stop buying tickets.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:51 AM
]If JR doesn't care about winning, then why did he throw a whole bunch of money at Kenny Williams last offseason?[/B] I really can't think of any other explanation. I maintain that no Cubs owner has any reason at all to actually try to win until their dumbass fans actually stop buying tickets.

Fair question - but KW is still in place.

Robin is a 'gutsy' hire given that he has NO experience in the minors or being a bench coach. I fear that it will turn out as badly as Alan Trammell did in Detroit.

I believe the White Sox need to tear their minor league setup apart.

For starters try to move AAA to Indianapolis instead of Charlotte. Try to get a an affiliation into the A Midwest League. ( In a perfect world try to move an existing Midwest League team to Joliet or Gary - and allow the Cubs to do the same if they want)

The White Sox also need to do lower parking prices and really improve customer relations with fans that do go to games.

They MUST make upperdeck ticket holders equal. This is a Chicago 'tradition' that goes back to the old Chicago Stadium where if you were in the second balcony you were stuck there.

The bottom line is the White Sox don't need to worry about what the Yankees and Red Sox do over 162 games. They need to focus on Detroit, Minnesota and Cleveland ( and perhaps KC )

Huge payrolls do win out over 162 - but once the playoffs begin all bets are off. Does anyone want to write St. Louis off right now? It could be 2006 all over again.

Epstein WILL redo the Cubs culture - just like he got rid of most Yawkey-Harrington people. I also believe Ricketts wants to win more than making a profit. I am not sure about JR.

Bob Roarman
10-12-2011, 05:09 AM
Cub fans may be on cloud nine but they are still going to be in fourth place with the "boy wonder" or without him.

Lip

No matter who they bring in, the effect won't really be felt for a couple years. Yeah they're going to go through some more bad baseball, but if they get him, like Fenway has been saying, it's completely changing the culture for them. Is it a risk? Of course, but they're over a hundred years without winning a title, if they want familiarity just go re-hire Hendry. And take McDonough back (please?).

SoxfaninLA
10-12-2011, 07:22 AM
It's hard to deny that Theo is an upgrade over Hendry, but people need to take it easy with the boy wonder stuff. If you take a look at the last 3 or 4 years of his work in Boston, you will see a LOT of questionable moves and bad contracts. Lackey, Dice-K, Crawford....plus the fact that even with their magic farm system Boston was relying one reliever and garbage like Bedard in their rotation while choking away a huge lead in September. I won't deny that I would be excited to be getting Theo if I were a Cubs fan, but let's hold off on planning the parade route for a year or two.

Also, this crap with the Cubs getting Pujols needs to stop, the guy is not going to leave St. Louis. The debt service on the Cubs is reportedly 30 million a year right now, and that doesn't include the money that needs to be poured into the shrine to keep it up to date. Ricketts does not have the money to throw 25 to 30 million a year at Pujols, not when he is already carrying one of the worst contracts in baseball in left field.

DrCrawdad
10-12-2011, 08:19 AM
ALL HAIL THE COMING OF THEOS!

I've got goosebumps about the Cubbies getting Epstein bar any late snags. I haven't see this much excitement since the signing of hitting guru, Rudy Jaramillo.

SCCWS
10-12-2011, 08:35 AM
It's hard to deny that Theo is an upgrade over Hendry, but people need to take it easy with the boy wonder stuff. If you take a look at the last 3 or 4 years of his work in Boston, you will see a LOT of questionable moves and bad contracts. Lackey, Dice-K, Crawford....plus the fact that even with their magic farm system Boston was relying one reliever and garbage like Bedard in their rotation while choking away a huge lead in September. I won't deny that I would be excited to be getting Theo if I were a Cubs fan, but let's hold off on planning the parade route for a year or two.

.

In this era, every team that is aggressive in free agency and trade deadline trades has hits and misses. David Ortiz was a great signing by Boston. So far the same can be said for Saltalamaccia and Gonzalez added this year. They got a great year out of Beltre. But your list plus probably Drew did not work. But you can bet that Crawford will bounce back as it seemed his injuries had healed based on his September. The Yankees are very similiar to Boston in that they have a bunch of hits and misses as well. But both teams give their fans a consistently good product on the field. They also spend like hell.

doublem23
10-12-2011, 09:20 AM
In this era, every team that is aggressive in free agency and trade deadline trades has hits and misses. David Ortiz was a great signing by Boston. So far the same can be said for Saltalamaccia and Gonzalez added this year. They got a great year out of Beltre. But your list plus probably Drew did not work. But you can bet that Crawford will bounce back as it seemed his injuries had healed based on his September. The Yankees are very similiar to Boston in that they have a bunch of hits and misses as well. But both teams give their fans a consistently good product on the field. They also spend like hell.

Right the thing is that the Red Sox and Yankees are the only two teams that can consistently miss and get away with it. Saltalamacchia is, at best, a so-so acquisition, he's young and can catch, but his offense is just OK (he was basically as offensive productive as AJ Pierzynski last year). And sure, Crawford should bounce back, but is he ever going to justify that contract? White Sox fans are seeing red over Adam Dunn's deal, Crawford's ridiculous contract is good for twice as many years and three times as much money. Add in a couple more sunk costs like John Lackey, perpetually hurt Josh Beckett, etc. and the Red Sox would be looking at a few painful years if they had to play by the same rules that everyone else does besides them and the Yankees. And for all Theo's reputation of "organization building," the lack of any sort of organizational depth is precisely what killed the Red Sox this year. By the end of the season, they were leaning on guys like Erik Bedard and Andrew Miller to get them to the postseason. ****, if they had to play a Game 163 against Tampa, they were exploring trades for guys like Bruce Chen. That's absurd.

I'm not saying Theo can't win with the Cubs. They've proven they can spend, too, and really, so much of this is just pure luck. But I've heard time and time again when the Cubs bring in a big name player or a big name manager that this is the guy who will get that franchise over the hump. Hasn't happened yet.

Goose
10-12-2011, 09:26 AM
On WGN this morning, they reported that Boston Globe is reporting done deal - Theo to the Cubs for 5 years/$15M/ Aprarently what I am hearing is GM - President role.

Will look for a link and post if I find it.

EDIT: I am not sure if WGN was misinformed, but the Globe still says nothing is offical. They expect it within the next couple of days, but according to the paper, nothing yet.

EDIT 2:
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1268089626/bernstein-90x130_normal.jpg (http://twitter.com/#!/dan_bernstein) @dan_bernstein (http://twitter.com/#!/dan_bernstein) Dan Bernstein


Per WEEI: #Cubs (http://twitter.com/#!/search?q=%23Cubs) and Theo agree on 5yr/$15MM deal. No job title yet. Compensation to Red Sox undecided.

DrCrawdad
10-12-2011, 09:43 AM
I'm not saying Theo can't win with the Cubs. They've proven they can spend, too, and really, so much of this is just pure luck. But I've heard time and time again when the Cubs bring in a big name player or a big name manager that this is the guy who will get that franchise over the hump. Hasn't happened yet.


http://a2.l3-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/7/10ffc0cda089787c5e0bf761d4a8df91/m.jpg

http://o.aolcdn.com/dims-global/dims3/BLOG/resize/200x150%5E/crop/200x150/http://o.aolcdn.com/photo-hub/AC78B022715C5B8357B4DCA8045E8463B4DE2124/Cubs_Piniella_baseball.jpg_LR1.0aacbfe3383a482eae5 e07445cd406ef

http://www.chicago-cubs-fan.com/images/Rudy-Jaramillo.jpg

asindc
10-12-2011, 09:51 AM
In this era, every team that is aggressive in free agency and trade deadline trades has hits and misses. David Ortiz was a great signing by Boston. So far the same can be said for Saltalamaccia and Gonzalez added this year. They got a great year out of Beltre. But your list plus probably Drew did not work. But you can bet that Crawford will bounce back as it seemed his injuries had healed based on his September. The Yankees are very similiar to Boston in that they have a bunch of hits and misses as well. But both teams give their fans a consistently good product on the field. They also spend like hell.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2814078&postcount=62

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2829538&postcount=239

SoxfaninLA
10-12-2011, 10:00 AM
In this era, every team that is aggressive in free agency and trade deadline trades has hits and misses. David Ortiz was a great signing by Boston. So far the same can be said for Saltalamaccia and Gonzalez added this year. They got a great year out of Beltre. But your list plus probably Drew did not work. But you can bet that Crawford will bounce back as it seemed his injuries had healed based on his September. The Yankees are very similiar to Boston in that they have a bunch of hits and misses as well. But both teams give their fans a consistently good product on the field. They also spend like hell.

Yea I forgot about Drew, Lugo was another ridiculous waste of money that I missed. Crawford in my mind is no sure bet to bounce back, it looked pretty obvious to me that he was not comfortable playing in Boston and I am always nervous about speed guys and the way injuries and age can push them off a cliff in a very short period of time.

Right the thing is that the Red Sox and Yankees are the only two teams that can consistently miss and get away with it. Saltalamacchia is, at best, a so-so acquisition, he's young and can catch, but his offense is just OK (he was basically as offensive productive as AJ Pierzynski last year). And sure, Crawford should bounce back, but is he ever going to justify that contract? White Sox fans are seeing red over Adam Dunn's deal, Crawford's ridiculous contract is good for twice as many years and three times as much money. Add in a couple more sunk costs like John Lackey, perpetually hurt Josh Beckett, etc. and the Red Sox would be looking at a few painful years if they had to play by the same rules that everyone else does besides them and the Yankees. And for all Theo's reputation of "organization building," the lack of any sort of organizational depth is precisely what killed the Red Sox this year. By the end of the season, they were leaning on guys like Erik Bedard and Andrew Miller to get them to the postseason. ****, if they had to play a Game 163 against Tampa, they were exploring trades for guys like Bruce Chen. That's absurd.

I'm not saying Theo can't win with the Cubs. They've proven they can spend, too, and really, so much of this is just pure luck. But I've heard time and time again when the Cubs bring in a big name player or a big name manager that this is the guy who will get that franchise over the hump. Hasn't happened yet.

Great post. Again, no one is saying Theo hasn't made a lot of great moves, but how many of those moves are because Theo is a brilliant guy and how many of those moves are because he has more money than all but one team along with top notch scouts and front office people to help him make these decisions. The Cubs credit card, while impressive in the past, is still nothing compared to what the Red Sox and Yankees credit line is. Let's see what Theo can do when he can't spend his way out of his bad moves.

g0g0
10-12-2011, 10:11 AM
They actually had a top third farm system before the Garza trade lopped off some prospects. The system had a down year this season, but it's still about average I'd say. Not much immediate help available, but Brett Jackson is about ready to take over in CF. They've also decided to invest quite heavily in the draft, with $12 million in bonus expenditures in 2011 ($9 million more than the Sox). Theo will be able to spend just as much, perhaps more than he did with Boston in that regard. Even if the major league payroll is a bit less than he's used to, I think he's stepping into a pretty favorable situation. They won't be winning anything next season, but beyond that I see reason to be optimistic.

+1

They definitely lost some prospects and Barney, Lamahieu, Vitters, etc. haven't shown that they are future MLB starters. Marco Hernandez and Gioskar Amaya are great young prospects, but they won't be in the picture for another few years (if they even get that far in the system).

I'm not saying Theo can't win with the Cubs. They've proven they can spend, too, and really, so much of this is just pure luck. But I've heard time and time again when the Cubs bring in a big name player or a big name manager that this is the guy who will get that franchise over the hump. Hasn't happened yet.

I agree it's luck and money, and now Ricketts won't have anyone to blame but himself if this fails. I'm just happy that some of these deadweight contracts will be leaving so we can start to rebuild.

kobo
10-12-2011, 10:27 AM
+1

They definitely lost some prospects and Barney, Lamahieu, Vitters, etc. haven't shown that they are future MLB starters. Marco Hernandez and Gioskar Amaya are great young prospects, but they won't be in the picture for another few years (if they even get that far in the system).



I agree it's luck and money, and now Ricketts won't have anyone to blame but himself if this fails. I'm just happy that some of these deadweight contracts will be leaving so we can start to rebuild.
Huh? If Theo fails, Ricketts can easily throw Theo under the bus and say he did everything he could to help Theo. Bringing in Epstein is showing the fanbase that he (Ricketts) is trying to win, and trying to do the right thing. What more can Ricketts do at this point?

Also, aside from the baseball side of the Cubs there is also another major issue that needs to be addressed: Wrigley Field. Part of what made the Red Sox successful was the revenue generated from the renovation of Fenway. If Ricketts is unable to secure financing from the state or city to help renovate Wrigley then how much money is he going to have to rebuild the farm system and filed a competitive Major League club? The Cubs really are in a bad spot right now, and I don't think bringing in Theo is going to magically solve all their problems.

PKalltheway
10-12-2011, 10:54 AM
I'm not saying Theo can't win with the Cubs. They've proven they can spend, too, and really, so much of this is just pure luck. But I've heard time and time again when the Cubs bring in a big name player or a big name manager that this is the guy who will get that franchise over the hump. Hasn't happened yet.
Bingo. Theo could do it, but once you step into the Cubs organization, you lose the benefit of the doubt. There have been crusty old baseball lifers like Dallas Green, Leo Durocher, Don Zimmer, Jim Frey, Lou Piniella and Dusty Baker who couldn't get it done on the North Side. I know those guys were managers, but still, the question stands: Why should Theo get the benefit of the doubt? I'll believe it when I see it.

The Red Sox were a organization that featured good teams that couldn't quite get over the hump until Theo brought them over it. The Cubs can't even reach the hump to get over it.

Hitmen77
10-12-2011, 11:32 AM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2814078&postcount=62

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2829538&postcount=239

So far at least, I haven't seen the Cubs be up the Red Sox/Yankees level of being able to spend their way around bad free agent signings.

But I have no idea what Ricketts and the Cubs can/will do moving forward. I would think the Cubs are still a big money maker. Though their issues with needing to fix up Wrigley Field is a factor to consider. Is Ricketts going to open up his wallet for FA signings and then cry poor to the State and seek public funds to fix Wrigley?

In the short term though, don't the Cubs have some of their bad contracts coming off the books soon? If so, then maybe Epstein is coming here at just the right time with a chance to throw some money around. I guess we'll find out soon enough if he can replicate his "genius" of building a solid farm system and a MLB team that is a perennial pennant contender with another high payroll team that is not quite at "Red Sox money" level.

russ99
10-12-2011, 11:45 AM
This is a big risk for the Cubs and Epstein.

Epstein had very good owners and a club president above him. Now with the Cubs he's taking on the president role and reporting only to Ricketts.

I hope Ricketts can be like Henry/Lucchino and let the guy do his job, but we'll see...

DSpivack
10-12-2011, 12:17 PM
So far at least, I haven't seen the Cubs be up the Red Sox/Yankees level of being able to spend their way around bad free agent signings.

But I have no idea what Ricketts and the Cubs can/will do moving forward. I would think the Cubs are still a big money maker. Though their issues with needing to fix up Wrigley Field is a factor to consider. Is Ricketts going to open up his wallet for FA signings and then cry poor to the State and seek public funds to fix Wrigley?

In the short term though, don't the Cubs have some of their bad contracts coming off the books soon? If so, then maybe Epstein is coming here at just the right time with a chance to throw some money around. I guess we'll find out soon enough if he can replicate his "genius" of building a solid farm system and a MLB team that is a perennial pennant contender with another high payroll team that is not quite at "Red Sox money" level.

$73 million plus arbitration figures on the books for 2012, just $29 million (Soriano and Marmol) plus arb figures on the books for 2013.

Hitmen77
10-12-2011, 01:20 PM
Maybe for the next 2 years...but Epstein will win a pennant before the White Sox will.

JR doesn't care anymore - the Ventura signing proves that.

The White Sox minor league system is a disaster.

KW walked away from the Dave Wilder fiasco clean...which honestly NO CHICAGO WRITER WANTS TO TOUCH.

Epstein works on one principle - if you make the playoffs you have a 12.5% chance of winning it all.

That worked for Kenny in 2006 - Chicago caught the Red Sox rotation in tatters and LAA was suspect to begin with - The Astros were easy.

Epstein wanted to hire Ryne Sandberg for Pawtucket so.....

The HUGE advantage is - there is no NYY complex in the NL Central - Theo should be able to get the Cubs into the post season within 2 years...and then.

Please believe me when I say I wish Theo was going to 35th St and not Addison. Ricketts wants to win it all.... I really have doubts JR does.

Fair question - but KW is still in place.

Robin is a 'gutsy' hire given that he has NO experience in the minors or being a bench coach. I fear that it will turn out as badly as Alan Trammell did in Detroit.

I believe the White Sox need to tear their minor league setup apart.

For starters try to move AAA to Indianapolis instead of Charlotte. Try to get a an affiliation into the A Midwest League. ( In a perfect world try to move an existing Midwest League team to Joliet or Gary - and allow the Cubs to do the same if they want)

The White Sox also need to do lower parking prices and really improve customer relations with fans that do go to games.

They MUST make upperdeck ticket holders equal. This is a Chicago 'tradition' that goes back to the old Chicago Stadium where if you were in the second balcony you were stuck there.

The bottom line is the White Sox don't need to worry about what the Yankees and Red Sox do over 162 games. They need to focus on Detroit, Minnesota and Cleveland ( and perhaps KC )

Huge payrolls do win out over 162 - but once the playoffs begin all bets are off. Does anyone want to write St. Louis off right now? It could be 2006 all over again.

Epstein WILL redo the Cubs culture - just like he got rid of most Yawkey-Harrington people. I also believe Ricketts wants to win more than making a profit. I am not sure about JR.

I honestly thought that this past year was the best chance for the Sox to take another bite into the Cubs stranglehold on Chicago. The White Sox made a big leap with 2005, but IMO a Sox winning team in 2011 coupled with growing disgruntlement over the Cubs losing ways would have been another huge step.

Who knows what will happen in the coming years, but now it looks like it's the Sox who are more saddled with bad contracts and an awful farm system.

I can't believe JR doesn't want to win when he authorized a huge payroll increase for 2011. But there is something wrong with the way the organization is run. Is it that he's loyal to a fault with Kenny Williams? Is it that they are simply dead-set against spending money on scouting, drafting, etc?

TheOldRoman
10-12-2011, 01:47 PM
That worked for Kenny in 2006 - Chicago caught the Red Sox rotation in tatters and LAA was suspect to begin with - The Astros were easy.Obviously you meant 2005, but that is complete and utter bull****. The Sox beat Boston because they had a better team. The Angels were a very good team which was completely outclassed by historic pitching performances, and the Astros were a great team which would have won the World Series most years. Each of the four WS games could have gone the other direction had a hit fallen in here or there. The Astros were a great team that had the misfortune of running into a better one.

As for Theo to the Cubs, it's an inspired move if nothing else. The Cubs aren't going to have a high payroll again for a while. Ricketts got in way over his head and paid too much for the team. The revenue is maxed out, they have to figure something out about the Urinal (while spending millions annually in upkeep) and he isn't likely to get the city or state to build him a new park in this climate. As others have said, we will see what Theo can do without steroids and such a huge payroll. He will undoubtedly improve the team over the next few years, but who knows if he will get them over the hump or get them 5 Daisukes, 3 Lackeys and a Lugo.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 02:06 PM
I honestly thought that this past year was the best chance for the Sox to take another bite into the Cubs stranglehold on Chicago. The White Sox made a big leap with 2005, but IMO a Sox winning team in 2011 coupled with growing disgruntlement over the Cubs losing ways would have been another huge step.

Who knows what will happen in the coming years, but now it looks like it's the Sox who are more saddled with bad contracts and an awful farm system.

I can't believe JR doesn't want to win when he authorized a huge payroll increase for 2011. But there is something wrong with the way the organization is run. Is it that he's loyal to a fault with Kenny Williams? Is it that they are simply dead-set against spending money on scouting, drafting, etc?

The irony here is the White Sox pay their scouts as well as any team in MLB.

Not drafting clients of Scott Boras hurt who exactly?- not Boras who is said to spend more on scouting than any MLB team.

Concerning Wilder - He pled guilty back in February but I don't believe he has been sentenced as of yet. People that I know in development say that somebody on 35th St had to know what he was doing as the inner circle of development people is too small especially in Latin America.

WhiteSox5187
10-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Obviously you meant 2005, but that is complete and utter bull****. The Sox beat Boston because they had a better team. The Angels were a very good team which was completely outclassed by historic pitching performances, and the Astros were a great team which would have won the World Series most years. Each of the four WS games could have gone the other direction had a hit fallen in here or there. The Astros were a great team that had the misfortune of running into a better one.


The White Sox in 2005 were certainly the best over all team in the AL but I think Fenway's point about the playoffs being a crap shoot still stands. There is no way that the Cardinals are not as good as the Phillies but they beat them in a 5 game series because they got hot at the right time, the same is true for the Giants last year. The 2005 White Sox were a great team but there have been lots of great teams that have struggled in the playoffs because some team just gets hot at the right time. It's all a crapshoot come October.

DirtySox
10-12-2011, 02:12 PM
The irony here is the White Sox pay their scouts as well as any team in MLB.

Not drafting clients of Scott Boras hurt who exactly?- not Boras who is said to spend more on scouting than any MLB team.

Concerning Wilder - He pled guilty back in February but I don't believe he has been sentenced as of yet. People that I know in development say that somebody on 35th St had to know what he was doing as the inner circle of development people is too small especially in Latin America.

It's not just not drafting Boras clients. The Sox don't spend anything on the draft period, agents be damned. Kenny's recent bristling comments regarding penny-pinching on amateur talent, makes it sound like that won't be changing anytime soon either.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 02:20 PM
The White Sox in 2005 were certainly the best over all team in the AL but I think Fenway's point about the playoffs being a crap shoot still stands. There is no way that the Cardinals are not as good as the Phillies but they beat them in a 5 game series because they got hot at the right time, the same is true for the Giants last year. The 2005 White Sox were a great team but there have been lots of great teams that have struggled in the playoffs because some team just gets hot at the right time. It's all a crapshoot come October.

Look at St. Louis in 2006 -

This year the Phillies went to sleep the last 2 weeks of the season except against the final 3 games in Atlanta and they looked flat. Blowing a big lead in Game 2 of the LDS came back to haunt them.

I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Clement_BDD.jpg

Rocky Soprano
10-12-2011, 02:29 PM
I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.


Clement pitch all four games?
Clement get shut down by White Sox pitching?

doublem23
10-12-2011, 02:29 PM
I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.


No, the truth is in 2005 the White Sox were a better team than the Red Sox.

You might also note, when you pull your head out of your ass, the other two starters the White Sox beat in the ALDS were the Red Sox two best SP in 2005.

TheOldRoman
10-12-2011, 02:32 PM
The White Sox in 2005 were certainly the best over all team in the AL but I think Fenway's point about the playoffs being a crap shoot still stands. There is no way that the Cardinals are not as good as the Phillies but they beat them in a 5 game series because they got hot at the right time, the same is true for the Giants last year. The 2005 White Sox were a great team but there have been lots of great teams that have struggled in the playoffs because some team just gets hot at the right time. It's all a crapshoot come October.I understand that and agree that the playoffs can be a crapshoot. However, the tone of the comment was almost as if the Sox snuck into the playoffs, caught the mighty Red Sox offguard and then lucked out in facing crappy Angels and Astros teams. It didn't "work for Kenny" in 2005 because the Sox were the best team in the American League from wire to wire.

DrCrawdad
10-12-2011, 02:32 PM
Clement pitch all four games?
Clement get shut down by White Sox pitching?

Good points.

2005 the White Sox were the best team in MLB, without a doubt.

C-Dawg
10-12-2011, 02:35 PM
Good points.

2005 the White Sox were the best team in MLB, without a doubt.

Nonsense! Everyone knows they cheated their way through the entire post-season!

Fenway
10-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Clement pitch all four games?
Clement get shut down by White Sox pitching?

It was three games :tongue:

soltrain21
10-12-2011, 02:43 PM
Look at St. Louis in 2006 -

This year the Phillies went to sleep the last 2 weeks of the season except against the final 3 games in Atlanta and they looked flat. Blowing a big lead in Game 2 of the LDS came back to haunt them.

I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.

http://bostondirtdogs.boston.com/Headline_Archives/Clement_BDD.jpg


Yeah, no.

SI1020
10-12-2011, 02:48 PM
In the 2000 ALDS several of the White Sox starting pitchers probably had trouble combing their own hair. That was a pitching staff in tatters. I'm not too happy about the Sox performance since mid 06 but in 05 they were clearly the best team in baseball.

aryzner
10-12-2011, 02:49 PM
I also feel inclined to defend the fact that the White Sox were the best team in MLB in 2005, but you all have already done that in fine fashion. :D:

doublem23
10-12-2011, 02:55 PM
Fair question - but KW is still in place.

Robin is a 'gutsy' hire given that he has NO experience in the minors or being a bench coach. I fear that it will turn out as badly as Alan Trammell did in Detroit.

I believe the White Sox need to tear their minor league setup apart.

For starters try to move AAA to Indianapolis instead of Charlotte. Try to get a an affiliation into the A Midwest League. ( In a perfect world try to move an existing Midwest League team to Joliet or Gary - and allow the Cubs to do the same if they want)

The White Sox also need to do lower parking prices and really improve customer relations with fans that do go to games.

They MUST make upperdeck ticket holders equal. This is a Chicago 'tradition' that goes back to the old Chicago Stadium where if you were in the second balcony you were stuck there.

The bottom line is the White Sox don't need to worry about what the Yankees and Red Sox do over 162 games. They need to focus on Detroit, Minnesota and Cleveland ( and perhaps KC )

Huge payrolls do win out over 162 - but once the playoffs begin all bets are off. Does anyone want to write St. Louis off right now? It could be 2006 all over again.

Epstein WILL redo the Cubs culture - just like he got rid of most Yawkey-Harrington people. I also believe Ricketts wants to win more than making a profit. I am not sure about JR.

Oh this all a bunch of trixie Red Sox jag-off bull****. JR clearly wants to win, the guy just authorized his general manager to spend $120 million on payroll this past off-season. Just because his vision of how to run a baseball team differs from THE GREAT AND INFALLIBLE Theo Epstein doesn't mean his desire can be automatically questioned. Here's some more facts... The only thing that has saved Theo the past few years is that the Red Sox are essentially the Yankees, able to spend their way out of horrendous mistakes. You can pretend like he's the wizard of Yawkey Way all you want, analyzing away with his calculators and protractors and all that ****, but the fact of the matter is if he worked for any other team than the Sawx, he'd have been run out of town for these idiotic contracts he's been doling out. And you can hem and haw all you ****ing want about how great of a farm system he builds... which is why the Sawx were stuck looking to make a deal for Bruce Chen, etc. if they hadn't choked away before the 163rd game against Tampa Bay.

Once again, you are an outsider on this topic and your posts reveal a clear Red Sox-bias. So ****ing drop it and go give someone some more stupid advice about how to take the CTA around town.

Moses_Scurry
10-12-2011, 02:59 PM
LOL at the guy trying to make excuses for the 2005 AL wildcard team with their "ace" Matt Clement. The only team whose fans can even suggest that their team might have been close to the Sox that year would be the St. Louis Cardinals.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:00 PM
WEEI's Glenn Ordway is saying Epstein has told Ricketts he will take the job ONLY if Crane Kenney is shown the door.

thomas35forever
10-12-2011, 03:02 PM
WEEI's Glenn Ordway is saying Epstein has told Ricketts he will take the job ONLY if Crane Kenney is shown the door.
So does that imply he's definitely taking some of his top advisers with him?

doublem23
10-12-2011, 03:03 PM
WEEI's Glenn Ordway is saying Epstein has told Ricketts he will take the job ONLY if Crane Kenney is shown the door.

I thought Kenney was already out as Cubs President.

hi im skot
10-12-2011, 03:04 PM
Oh this all a bunch of trixie Red Sox jag-off bull****. JR clearly wants to win, the guy just authorized his general manager to spend $120 million on payroll this past off-season. Just because his vision of how to run a baseball team differs from THE GREAT AND INFALLIBLE Theo Epstein doesn't mean his desire can be automatically questioned. Here's some more facts... The only thing that has saved Theo the past few years is that the Red Sox are essentially the Yankees, able to spend their way out of horrendous mistakes. You can pretend like he's the wizard of Yawkey Way all you want, analyzing away with his calculators and protractors and all that ****, but the fact of the matter is if he worked for any other team than the Sawx, he'd have been run out of town for these idiotic contracts he's been doling out. And you can hem and haw all you ****ing want about how great of a farm system he builds... which is why the Sawx were stuck looking to make a deal for Bruce Chen, etc. if they hadn't choked away before the 163rd game against Tampa Bay.

Once again, you are an outsider on this topic and your posts reveal a clear Red Sox-bias. So ****ing drop it and go give someone some more stupid advice about how to take the CTA around town.

http://lolmart.com/files/2011/07/AwwYeah.png

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:07 PM
I thought Kenney was already out as Cubs President.

Epstein most likely does not want a repeat of the power struggle like he had with Lucchino.

TheOldRoman
10-12-2011, 03:08 PM
WEEI's Glenn Ordway is saying Epstein has told Ricketts he will take the job ONLY if Crane Kenney is shown the door.

I thought Kenney was already out as Cubs President.

Epstein most likely does not want a repeat of the power struggle like he had with Lucchino.
:scratch:So... they are firing Kenney for a second time?

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:11 PM
:scratch:So... they are firing Kenney for a second time?

Kenney is still listed as president

http://chicago.cubs.mlb.com/team/front_office.jsp?c_id=chc

SCCWS
10-12-2011, 03:12 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2814078&postcount=62

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2829538&postcount=239

Not sure what your point is. The list of players that Theo added that did not work out? Those players in addition to the ones who did work out ( Shilling-Beckett-Ortiz-Cabrera-Millar-Roberts-Foulke etc) won 2 World Championships. The Red Sox spent plenty of money to do that. But they also spent plenty before Theo and never won.
The Red Sox have also produced 3 All-Stars in Pedroia-Youk-Ellsbury from their farm system during this stretch.
Hopefully Theo is not as successful in Chicago but he is very well respected in baseball.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:24 PM
Not sure what your point is. The list of players that Theo added that did not work out? Those players in addition to the ones who did work out ( Shilling-Beckett-Ortiz-Cabrera-Millar-Roberts-Foulke etc) won 2 World Championships. The Red Sox spent plenty of money to do that. But they also spent plenty before Theo and never won.
The Red Sox have also produced 3 All-Stars in Pedroia-Youk-Ellsbury from their farm system during this stretch.
Hopefully Theo is not as successful in Chicago but he is very well respected in baseball.

Theo did pull the trigger on the Nomar trade in 2004 which was a huge roll of the dice at the time.

Theo had NOTHING to do with Beckett and Lowell coming to Boston - that was the late Bill Lajoie who was acting GM while Theo was on his vacation.

Theo has had some horrible free agent signings but he is far from alone in that.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 03:42 PM
JR wants to win on his terms which is his right.

But by not drafting players who were represented by Boras only hurt the White Sox. Scott got his money from the other teams.

Ventura could well turn out to be a good manager and I hope he does well.

But how many other managers have done well with no minor or bench coach experience? The last one that I can think of is Ted Williams in Washington who was Manager of the Year in 1969. He only walked away from the job because he could not deal with the Texas heat in 1972.







Oh this all a bunch of trixie Red Sox jag-off bull****. JR clearly wants to win, the guy just authorized his general manager to spend $120 million on payroll this past off-season. Just because his vision of how to run a baseball team differs from THE GREAT AND INFALLIBLE Theo Epstein doesn't mean his desire can be automatically questioned. Here's some more facts... The only thing that has saved Theo the past few years is that the Red Sox are essentially the Yankees, able to spend their way out of horrendous mistakes. You can pretend like he's the wizard of Yawkey Way all you want, analyzing away with his calculators and protractors and all that ****, but the fact of the matter is if he worked for any other team than the Sawx, he'd have been run out of town for these idiotic contracts he's been doling out. And you can hem and haw all you ****ing want about how great of a farm system he builds... which is why the Sawx were stuck looking to make a deal for Bruce Chen, etc. if they hadn't choked away before the 163rd game against Tampa Bay.

Once again, you are an outsider on this topic and your posts reveal a clear Red Sox-bias. So ****ing drop it and go give someone some more stupid advice about how to take the CTA around town.

Lip Man 1
10-12-2011, 03:57 PM
Good column on this with a few well times blasts at the 'roided' up Red Sox:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/rosenblog/chi-theo-epstein-is-right-for-wrong-reasons-20111012,0,7931901.column

Lip

asindc
10-12-2011, 04:09 PM
Not sure what your point is. The list of players that Theo added that did not work out? Those players in addition to the ones who did work out ( Shilling-Beckett-Ortiz-Cabrera-Millar-Roberts-Foulke etc) won 2 World Championships. The Red Sox spent plenty of money to do that. But they also spent plenty before Theo and never won.
The Red Sox have also produced 3 All-Stars in Pedroia-Youk-Ellsbury from their farm system during this stretch.
Hopefully Theo is not as successful in Chicago but he is very well respected in baseball.

The point is that Epstein (and Cashman) is a somewhat unknown commodity given that he has been able to spend over a lot more blunders than any other team not named the NYY is able to do. I think Epstein's strong suit is building an exceptional farm system, but money is also a factor in that as well. I think the hire is a good one for the Cubs, but I'm in a wait-and-see mode about whether this is a sure thing.

asindc
10-12-2011, 04:15 PM
JR wants to win on his terms which is his right.

But by not drafting players who were represented by Boras only hurt the White Sox. Scott got his money from the other teams.

Ventura could well turn out to be a good manager and I hope he does well.

But how many other managers have done well with no minor or bench coach experience? The last one that I can think of is Ted Williams in Washington who was Manager of the Year in 1969. He only walked away from the job because he could not deal with the Texas heat in 1972.

Yeah, we felt particular pain on October 26, 2005, a year after not signing Boras client Magglio Ordonez because Boras refused to allow the Sox access to his medical records. If Detroit does not win the WS while Ordonez is on the team, he can call Jermaine Dye and ask him what the experience is like.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 04:49 PM
Theo - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/the_theo_epstei.html

doublem23
10-12-2011, 04:56 PM
Theo - The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/2011/10/the_theo_epstei.html

Well I can't ****ing wait until the summer of a million Theo updates.

He quit, he's gone, get the **** over it, for Christ's sake stop acting like a 15-year-old whose 1st boyfriend just broke up with her.

VenturaFan23
10-12-2011, 05:22 PM
Oh this all a bunch of trixie Red Sox jag-off bull****. JR clearly wants to win, the guy just authorized his general manager to spend $120 million on payroll this past off-season. Just because his vision of how to run a baseball team differs from THE GREAT AND INFALLIBLE Theo Epstein doesn't mean his desire can be automatically questioned. Here's some more facts... The only thing that has saved Theo the past few years is that the Red Sox are essentially the Yankees, able to spend their way out of horrendous mistakes. You can pretend like he's the wizard of Yawkey Way all you want, analyzing away with his calculators and protractors and all that ****, but the fact of the matter is if he worked for any other team than the Sawx, he'd have been run out of town for these idiotic contracts he's been doling out. And you can hem and haw all you ****ing want about how great of a farm system he builds... which is why the Sawx were stuck looking to make a deal for Bruce Chen, etc. if they hadn't choked away before the 163rd game against Tampa Bay.

Once again, you are an outsider on this topic and your posts reveal a clear Red Sox-bias. So ****ing drop it and go give someone some more stupid advice about how to take the CTA around town.

:clap:

skobabe8
10-12-2011, 05:27 PM
Well I can't ****ing wait until the summer of a million Theo updates.

He quit, he's gone, get the **** over it, for Christ's sake stop acting like a 15-year-old whose 1st boyfriend just broke up with her.

Someone get doub some butter...

















...HE'S ON A ROLL.

JB98
10-12-2011, 05:49 PM
Theo = the next Andy McFail.

This is gonna be funny. Epstein will be exposed as the checkbook GM he is.

Is he bringing Dice-K, Lackey, Crawford, Jenks, Lugo and Drew with him?

It's a good thing he traded Justin Masterson. Master stroke there. Probably wouldn't have needed to ask about Bruce Chen if he had held on to Masterson.

Fenway
10-12-2011, 06:23 PM
Well I can't ****ing wait until the summer of a million Theo updates.

He quit, he's gone, get the **** over it, for Christ's sake stop acting like a 15-year-old whose 1st boyfriend just broke up with her.

You seem to overlook that when Francona left I posted - The wrong man was fired.

I am glad he is gone.

CHISOXFAN13
10-12-2011, 06:51 PM
You seem to overlook that when Francona left I posted - The wrong man was fired.

I am glad he is gone.

So you are glad he's gone, but he's going to lead the Cubs to a pennant before the Sox win another.

Pick a lane.

HomeFish
10-12-2011, 06:53 PM
The two positions are not mutually exclusive. He could have so little faith in Jerry, KW, and Ventura that he thinks EVEN THEO is going to win before they do.

chisoxjtrain
10-12-2011, 06:57 PM
I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.


http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/cool_story_bro.gif

Fenway
10-12-2011, 07:51 PM
So you are glad he's gone, but he's going to lead the Cubs to a pennant before the Sox win another.

Pick a lane.

The two positions are not mutually exclusive. He could have so little faith in Jerry, KW, and Ventura that he thinks EVEN THEO is going to win before they do.

I think the simple fact that JR would not allow KW to fire Ozzie indicates that The Chairman may meddle too much.

Steve Stone has said that the Cubs biggest problem is they have never been built to perform well at Wrigley and their home record historically reflects that. That is something Theo will at least try to address.

However unlike 10 years ago he will be taking over a roster that is a mess (Boston was already a good team when he became GM)....

Brian26
10-12-2011, 08:17 PM
I am not taking anything away from the 2005 White Sox - but the truth is they took advantage of the Red Sox rotation being in tatters. Matt Clement was not the same pitcher after taking a line drive to the head in Tampa a few weeks earlier.


You're treading in dangerous territory right now.

That's like me saying if Mags and Frank hadn't gone down in '04, the Good Guys may have won two in a row.

thomas35forever
10-12-2011, 09:13 PM
You're treading in dangerous territory right now.

That's like me saying if Mags and Frank hadn't gone down in '04, the Good Guys may have won two in a row.
Absolutely. Sports is full of what-ifs. If this guy hadn't gotten injured or if that guy had been hired instead, things would have turned out differently. Nobody remembers what-ifs though. What happened is what goes down in the sports almanacs year after year after year. The losers are often listed, but I'd bet the farm that nobody, at least in the casual fan's mind, gives a rat's ass about who came up short in perspective. They want to know about dynasties, not the early '90s Buffalo Bills or the late '90s Utah Jazz. To see it from a local perspective, people outside of the area will remember the 2006 Colts a lot more than that season's Bears because they won that Super Bowl.

:bandance:Post number 19,000!:bandance:

dickallen15
10-12-2011, 09:20 PM
Theo had a nice run in Boston. If he wins a title with the Cubs, he's a HOFer. Supposedly he won't be able to take any of his staff with him. I'd like the proper color of Sox to hire the guys that told him to draft Bard and Lester and Pedroia and Ellsbury.

They did win 90 games this past season playing an AL East schedule, and that is collossal failure. I wonder how he's going to handle losing with the Cubs.

SI1020
10-12-2011, 09:41 PM
Well I can't ****ing wait until the summer of a million Theo updates.

He quit, he's gone, get the **** over it, for Christ's sake stop acting like a 15-year-old whose 1st boyfriend just broke up with her. Oh it will be worse than you think it will and not because of Fenway. The local sports media will fall all over themselves covering the great and sainted Theo and his noble crusade to end a century and counting of baseball futility.

DirtySox
10-12-2011, 09:45 PM
Oh it will be worse than you think it will and not because of Fenway. The local sports media will fall all over themselves covering the great and sainted Theo and his noble crusade to end a century and counting of baseball futility.

Exactly.

eastchicagosoxfan
10-12-2011, 10:11 PM
When the team continues to stink will his mother write a note to to the fans excusing Theo?

doublem23
10-12-2011, 10:16 PM
Oh it will be worse than you think it will and not because of Fenway. The local sports media will fall all over themselves covering the great and sainted Theo and his noble crusade to end a century and counting of baseball futility.

Yeah, but I can easily zone out the Trib an Sun-Times. I come here to avid most of that bumbling stupidity.

TommyJohn
10-12-2011, 11:39 PM
Tomorrow's headlines:

THEO!
Cubs hire Theo Epstein, World Series assured

Telander: Theo broke the tragic Red Sox curse, now he will break the curse on my Cubbies!

Morrissey: "Theodore" means "Gift of God." Now, Theodore Epstein is God's gift to Chicago

Sullivan:

"Dear Red Sox fans,

Please excuse Theo from Boston for good. He broke your curse, now he is off to bring your blood brothers in Chicago the city's first baseball title in 104 years.

Sincerely,

Epstein's mother"

Crooked Number
10-13-2011, 01:05 AM
Tomorrow's headlines:

THEO!
Cubs hire Theo Epstein, World Series assured

Telander: Theo broke the tragic Red Sox curse, now he will break the curse on my Cubbies!

Morrissey: "Theodore" means "Gift of God." Now, Theodore Epstein is God's gift to Chicago

Sullivan:

"Dear Red Sox fans,

Please excuse Theo from Boston for good. He broke your curse, now he is off to bring your blood brothers in Chicago the city's first baseball title in 104 years.

Sincerely,

Epstein's mother"


*SALUTE* :cool:

Yes...Yes...Yes!!!!

These aren't that far off, no teal. This post brings back memories of the vaunted "you write the Cubune headline" thread. I really got a kick out of that, too bad it had to go.

Nelson Foxtrot
10-13-2011, 01:24 AM
Tomorrow's headlines:
snip


The Mr. Kotter reference is perfect, but with the "Theodore" name meaning and tie-in, you have done more research for a mock headline than those "journalists" do for their real stories.

cub killer
10-13-2011, 01:25 AM
I'm not taking anything away from the 04 Carmines, but the truth is they took advantage of a Yankee team that flat out choked. Not to mention the possibility that the NYY threw that series so that NY-Bos ratings could thrive for years to come. Those games wouldn't be a cash cow if NY was forever Boston's daddy. There's always the possibility that Bud/Fox threw the Yanks some cash to preserve the ratings cash cow. Ya never know.

StillMissOzzie
10-13-2011, 03:47 AM
Part of me thinks of Theo as TYS - This Year's Savior.
After all the media and Cub fan fawning over priot TYS's: Dusty Baker, Wood & Prior, Lou Piniella, blowing up the Bartman ball, Rudy Jaramillo (sp?) - blah blah blah.
It's Gonna Happen! - Yeah, whatever - and WHENever.

SMO
:tongue:

1908<2005
10-13-2011, 04:07 AM
This is the 2nd best hire the Cubs could possibly make behind Friedman IMO. Great move by the Ricketts. Not saying this will end the drought but they put themselves in position to do so.

C-Dawg
10-13-2011, 07:32 AM
Hopefully Sports Illustrated saved their artwork from the Kerry Woods "Hell Freezes Over" cover... Because it worked SO WELL last time!

sullythered
10-13-2011, 08:10 AM
It's the Cubs. If Theo's lucky, he'll be Andy Macphail: part 2. If not, he'll be a stuttering, gray-haired mess by the time he's done.

MARTINMVP
10-13-2011, 09:34 AM
While Theo's hiring doesn't guarantee a World Series, or consistent winning seasons, the Cubs are in a better position now than they have been for a long, long time. Having someone like Theo that high up in the organization means a likely change in the overall organizational culture and how they do things.

Our Robin Ventura hiring compared to the Theo hiring... yeah I'm jealous. We're still stuck with Kenny and Jerry.

g0g0
10-13-2011, 09:36 AM
Huh? If Theo fails, Ricketts can easily throw Theo under the bus and say he did everything he could to help Theo. Bringing in Epstein is showing the fanbase that he (Ricketts) is trying to win, and trying to do the right thing. What more can Ricketts do at this point?

Also, aside from the baseball side of the Cubs there is also another major issue that needs to be addressed: Wrigley Field. Part of what made the Red Sox successful was the revenue generated from the renovation of Fenway. If Ricketts is unable to secure financing from the state or city to help renovate Wrigley then how much money is he going to have to rebuild the farm system and filed a competitive Major League club? The Cubs really are in a bad spot right now, and I don't think bringing in Theo is going to magically solve all their problems.

But ultimately it's Rickett's hire. If Theo does fails then it can come back on Rickett's for hiring a bad fit for the team; especially when there were 4-5 great possible candidates available at that time. Rickett's has also said that Theo will only have to answer to him, which makes team decisions part of his problem also. So any major signings, new manager hires, etc. will be on both of them. I'm sure he's not going to give Theo a blank check without consulting on it first.

As for Wrigley, that's another whole mess altogether. It's encouraging that they weren't that far off the mark in attendance this year even though the season was abysmal...

Railsplitter
10-13-2011, 09:53 AM
How long before Theo quit in disgust?

tebman
10-13-2011, 10:44 AM
As for Wrigley, that's another whole mess altogether. It's encouraging that they weren't that far off the mark in attendance this year even though the season was abysmal...

And that's the heart of the Cubs' problem. That ballpark is an albatross hanging around their necks. They absolutely depend on it to market the team and they're absolutely distracted by its marketing at the expense of the team.

The ballpark needs serious work. The bleachers were rebuilt several years ago, mostly to add more seats and a restaurant. But the grandstand and upper deck are literally crumbling and it's going to cost them a fortune to rebuild it, not counting the lost revenue while that work is being done. But more than the cost, what's going to prevent any progress is the force field the Cubs and the Tribune have put around the franchise for the past 60 years.

If Epstein is able to give the franchise an enema and remove its cult of cuteness, he will have been worth every penny Ricketts is paying. It's that porcelain-doll quality that the Cubs have cultivated that keeps them stuck in their weird parallel universe. I wish him luck.

SOXSINCE'70
10-13-2011, 10:56 AM
How long before Theo quit in disgust?

Lou Pinella lasted about 2 years, IIRC.

C-Dawg
10-13-2011, 11:54 AM
If Theo does fails then it can come back on Rickett's for hiring a bad fit for the team...

Rickett's has also said that Theo will only have to answer to him...

LOL Kittle42 is probably choking on a cruller right about now!

#1swisher
10-13-2011, 12:07 PM
Talks of compensation for Epstein were set to begin today.

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/10/13/report-cherington-could-be-named-red-sox-gm-today/

Nellie_Fox
10-13-2011, 12:54 PM
LOL Kittle42 is probably choking on a cruller right about now!Everybody knows that an apostrophe is merely a warning that an "s" is coming.

Rocky Soprano
10-13-2011, 01:04 PM
While Theo's hiring doesn't guarantee a World Series, or consistent winning seasons, the Cubs are in a better position now than they have been for a long, long time. Having someone like Theo that high up in the organization means a likely change in the overall organizational culture and how they do things.

Our Robin Ventura hiring compared to the Theo hiring... yeah I'm jealous. We're still stuck with Kenny and Jerry.

I agree.

asindc
10-13-2011, 01:20 PM
Everybody knows that an apostrophe is merely a warning that an "s" is coming.

What else would it be used for?

Brewski
10-13-2011, 01:55 PM
Everybody knows that an apostrophe is merely a warning that an "s" is coming.

Run for the hill's.

sullythered
10-13-2011, 04:34 PM
Run for the hill's.

http://data.whicdn.com/images/13291103/tumblr_lpojqsYK5K1ql6wjq_large.jpg

g0g0
10-13-2011, 06:00 PM
LOL Kittle42 is probably choking on a cruller right about now!

Everybody knows that an apostrophe is merely a warning that an "s" is coming.

Run for the hill's.

:clap: HOLY CRAP! I've arrived! First time I've been nailed by the grammar/spelling police!

An honest mistake guy's.

sox230
10-13-2011, 07:26 PM
I just wish there was a journalism piece that could arrest and hold the Tribune accountable for their lack of balanced, objectionable journalism. I know this has been discussed at nauseam, but look at the difference in coverage that the Sun-Times and Tribune gave this story, the Trib's article about some dude possibly spotting Theo at a Starbucks and http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-cubs-toon-20111013,0,2200384.graphic
I just wish there could be something a lawyer could do to shut down the Trib's Cubs cheering section. I'm afraid that their constant promotion of the Cubs since 1984 will have a permanent effect on the proportion of Sox and Cubs fans in Chicago and we have to deal with the consequences of their lack of professionalism.:angry::angry::angry:

Lip Man 1
10-13-2011, 08:14 PM
Remember Tribune Company still owns 5% of the franchise.

Lip

Fenway
10-13-2011, 08:22 PM
Remember Tribune Company still owns 5% of the franchise.

Lip

More importantly still owns WGN-TV and 720 Radio.

A. Cavatica
10-13-2011, 08:47 PM
I come here to avid most of that bumbling stupidity.

How's that ging for you?

DrCrawdad
10-13-2011, 09:08 PM
I just wish there was a journalism piece that could arrest and hold the Tribune accountable for their lack of balanced, objectionable journalism. I know this has been discussed at nauseam, but look at the difference in coverage that the Sun-Times and Tribune gave this story, the Trib's article about some dude possibly spotting Theo at a Starbucks and http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-cubs-toon-20111013,0,2200384.graphic
I just wish there could be something a lawyer could do to shut down the Trib's Cubs cheering section. I'm afraid that their constant promotion of the Cubs since 1984 will have a permanent effect on the proportion of Sox and Cubs fans in Chicago and we have to deal with the consequences of their lack of professionalism.:angry::angry::angry:

Remember Tribune Company still owns 5% of the franchise.

Lip

More importantly still owns WGN-TV and 720 Radio.

I don't know if anyone posted about the Cubune's, David Haugh and his love letter (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/columnists/ct-spt-1013-haugh-theo-epstein-cubs-chicago--20111013,0,6348490.column) to Rickets (single "t" was on purpose) and the Cubbies. That column reads like a freaking fanzine article. A small amount of objectivity would go a long way.

:puking:

And for reference, the Cubune greeted the Cubbies hiring of Andy MacPhail with equal gushing, fawning praise. A September 10, 1994 article even referred to MacPhail as, "... conquering hero, the savior for a franchise..."

Woofer
10-13-2011, 10:35 PM
I just wish there was a journalism piece that could arrest and hold the Tribune accountable for their lack of balanced, objectionable journalism. I know this has been discussed at nauseam, but look at the difference in coverage that the Sun-Times and Tribune gave this story, the Trib's article about some dude possibly spotting Theo at a Starbucks and http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/chi-cubs-toon-20111013,0,2200384.graphic
I just wish there could be something a lawyer could do to shut down the Trib's Cubs cheering section. I'm afraid that their constant promotion of the Cubs since 1984 will have a permanent effect on the proportion of Sox and Cubs fans in Chicago and we have to deal with the consequences of their lack of professionalism.:angry::angry::angry:

I felt that four pages in todays Tribune was a little on the excessive side. Did anyone else see the cartoon on page two with a caricature of Babe Ruth consoling the Wrigley curse goat? I would find it funny and fitting if this whole deal fell apart. That would just be more proof that the curse is alive and well on the Northside. :cool:

tebman
10-13-2011, 10:39 PM
Remember Tribune Company still owns 5% of the franchise.

Lip

More importantly still owns WGN-TV and 720 Radio.

:yup: