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View Full Version : Can a LaRussa/Duncan combo make it happen for the WS in 2012?


captain54
08-21-2011, 11:32 PM
There is some speculation that JR could lure LaRussa/Dave Duncan from the Cardinals should Ozzie exit for the Marlins. My guess is that would mean a change @ GM too... with KW being kicked upstairs.

You can take it to the bank that LaRussa would never come here if the Sox were in rebuilding mode. And frankly, I don't think the Sox will ever
tear it all down and risk having Tampa Bay size crowds ever night, not as
long as JR is around

So given all of that, if the Sox tinker with the roster they have now, do you think that LaRussa/Duncan could mine gold from this talent?

WhiteSox5187
08-21-2011, 11:34 PM
I can't stand Tony LaRussa. He's a very good manager as his teams are always contending but I can't stand him.

DumpJerry
08-21-2011, 11:34 PM
Where would Coop fit in?

I don't see it happening.

doublem23
08-21-2011, 11:44 PM
So given all of that, if the Sox tinker with the roster they have now, do you think that LaRussa/Duncan could mine gold from this talent?

Depends on how much steroids the guys are willing to take

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2011, 12:12 AM
I know JR still likes LaRussa, so it could. I have no respect at all for LaRussa, so I hope it won't.

johnnyg83
08-22-2011, 12:14 AM
Hire Duncan as manager and keep Coop as pitching coach and we'll lower our ERA by a run. 8^)

DonnieDarko
08-22-2011, 12:57 AM
Hire Duncan as manager and keep Coop as pitching coach and we'll lower our ERA by a run. 8^)

I like this idea.

What about Joey Cora for manager, though?

Nellie_Fox
08-22-2011, 12:59 AM
I like this idea.

What about Joey Cora for manager, though?Not to be a smart-ass, but why? What makes you think Cora will be a good manager? I'm really curious, because I have absolutely no opinion one way or the other on Cora.

DonnieDarko
08-22-2011, 01:05 AM
Not to be a smart-ass, but why? What makes you think Cora will be a good manager? I'm really curious, because I have absolutely no opinion one way or the other on Cora.

*shrug*

I just meant to throw it out there; not because of anything in particular. I don't think that Cora is a good or bad manager, either. I would imagine that if he was though, there would be teams willing to take a shot on him.

ZombieRob
08-22-2011, 01:08 AM
Where would Coop fit in?

I don't see it happening.
Doesn't Duncan have a better track record then Coop? Not a knock on Coop at all but I don't think Sox lose much.

DonnieDarko
08-22-2011, 01:13 AM
Doesn't Duncan have a better track record then Coop? Not a knock on Coop at all but I don't think Sox lose much.

What has Duncan done, anyway? I can't say that I'm entirely knowledgeable of the Cardinals in any way, shape or form. Cooper, at least, seems to have a knack of bringing out first round talent, if anything.

SOXPHILE
08-22-2011, 09:32 AM
What has Duncan done, anyway? I can't say that I'm entirely knowledgeable of the Cardinals in any way, shape or form.


Well, he an LaRussa did show up at WMAQ to try and fight Jimmy Piersal many many years ago when they were with the White Sox, because they didn't like some comments he had made on the air.

amsteel
08-22-2011, 11:23 AM
If we're gonna have an ******* for a manager I want the ******* who was a player for the Sox and who won a World Series with the Sox.

Lip Man 1
08-22-2011, 11:27 AM
Soxphile:

From my interview with Jimmy for WSI, Duncan wasn't there:

ML: Sox ownership decided to go with the SportsVision experiment in 1982 and you were removed from the play by play booth while Harry left to go to the Cubs. You wound up doing the pre and post game shows. The Sox started out like gang-busters but by July were a .500 club, then one nightTony LaRussa apparently had it with some of your comments and drove down to the studios after a game and confronted you. I have never heard of such a thing happening before or since at least until the Steve Stone / Cubs controversy. What happened that night?

JP: “I had said during a show that whoever was coaching the outfielders wasn’t doing a very good job. They were out of position, they were throwing to the wrong base. It was a bad situation. So one night about eleven or 11:30 at night, LaRussa, Charlie Lau and Jimmy Leyland drive down to the studios. They told the guard they had an appointment to see me and he let them in. I’m in the studio and they march in. LaRussa’s yells, ‘are you trying to get Leyland fired?’ I didn’t know who was coaching the outfielders so I said ‘no, but whoever he is he’s doing a lousy job.’ They started to act tough when one of our producers walked in, he was a real big guy, about 6-4 and when they saw him they left. I tore Tony’s ass from then on. LaRussa acts real tough but he isn’t and Leyland is nothing but a little phony.”

Regarding the possibility of Tony coming back next year...it's possible but I wouldn't give you good odds it was going to happen.

Lip

Zisk77
08-22-2011, 11:37 AM
please make LaRussa/Duncan go away.

CHISOXFAN13
08-22-2011, 11:48 AM
Hire Duncan as manager and keep Coop as pitching coach and we'll lower our ERA by a run. 8^)

And still lose games because our offense stinks.

Say no to LaRussa.

SOXPHILE
08-22-2011, 11:50 AM
Soxphile:

From my interview with Jimmy for WSI, Duncan wasn't there:

ML: Sox ownership decided to go with the SportsVision experiment in 1982 and you were removed from the play by play booth while Harry left to go to the Cubs. You wound up doing the pre and post game shows. The Sox started out like gang-busters but by July were a .500 club, then one nightTony LaRussa apparently had it with some of your comments and drove down to the studios after a game and confronted you. I have never heard of such a thing happening before or since at least until the Steve Stone / Cubs controversy. What happened that night?

JP: “I had said during a show that whoever was coaching the outfielders wasn’t doing a very good job. They were out of position, they were throwing to the wrong base. It was a bad situation. So one night about eleven or 11:30 at night, LaRussa, Charlie Lau and Jimmy Leyland drive down to the studios. They told the guard they had an appointment to see me and he let them in. I’m in the studio and they march in. LaRussa’s yells, ‘are you trying to get Leyland fired?’ I didn’t know who was coaching the outfielders so I said ‘no, but whoever he is he’s doing a lousy job.’ They started to act tough when one of our producers walked in, he was a real big guy, about 6-4 and when they saw him they left. I tore Tony’s ass from then on. LaRussa acts real tough but he isn’t and Leyland is nothing but a little phony.”

Regarding the possibility of Tony coming back next year...it's possible but I wouldn't give you good odds it was going to happen.

Lip

OK. Thanks for that clarification Lip. That's actually disappointing to hear about Lau. I do recall Duncan coming across as a real whiny jackass in 2006 during the Sox-Cardinals series that June. He was bitching and moaning about how he thought the Sox pitchers were throwing at the Cardinal hitters, when I believe more Sox players got hit or almost hit. He also had people like Dave Stewart on his pitching staff in Oakland.

As for LaRussa, the crap he's pulled is numerous and well documented. Overseeing a bunch of 'roided up players in Oakland, & acting all high and mighty when questions came up about that and Mark McGwire; Walking around withe a fungo bat, implying he was going to hit any reporter who had the gall to ask questions concerning the death of Josh Hancock and that whole situation; Speaking of drunk driving, let's not forget LaRussa himself being drunk off his ass and sitting at a stoplight, behind the wheel, sleeping. Yeah, I've got a bunch more. Needless to say, I really don't like the guy.

whtsox13
08-22-2011, 12:11 PM
Ozzie is under contract for 2012. Why does everyone think he's going anywhere?

Lip Man 1
08-22-2011, 12:41 PM
Good point but the talk from numerous and respected baseball people is that with the new stadium set to open, the Marlins owner wants Ozzie to be there for it.

Lip

JB98
08-22-2011, 12:49 PM
please make LaRussa/Duncan go away.

Agreed. They are self-important whiners who mistakenly fashion themselves as the keepers of baseball etiquette.

I don't want them here.

jdm2662
08-22-2011, 01:05 PM
So we replace an ******* with a much bigger *******?

Where do I sign?

Jerko
08-22-2011, 03:21 PM
And still lose games because our offense stinks.

Say no to LaRussa.

That's where Mark McGwire comes in.

ghostface36
08-22-2011, 04:12 PM
sorry but most board members have a problem with ozzie but want la russa?
can someone explain that to me?

PaleHoser
08-22-2011, 04:24 PM
Good point but the talk from numerous and respected baseball people is that with the new stadium set to open, the Marlins owner wants Ozzie to be there for it.

Lip

And Ozzie wants to be there too. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many :scratch: moves this year. He's daring the club to fire him.

If the Sox fire him, Ozzie gets his way and saves face since he was fired, he didn't quit and that he's not a quitter. I think the only reason the club picked up his option is so they could squeeze compensation from the Marlins, and I hope to God the Marlins give in because I can't watch another year of this crap.

With regard to LaRussa, I don't want him here. I didn't care much for him the first time around, and he's failed more than succeeded in the post-season with some stacked teams (2006 being the exception). Besides, he'd probably want to talk Juan Agosto out of retirement to bring him back as his LOOGY.

amsteel
08-22-2011, 04:37 PM
And Ozzie wants to be there too. Otherwise, there wouldn't be so many :scratch: moves this year. He's daring the club to fire him.

Acting out to get fired is what you do when you're 16 and working at Wal-Mart, not a ML manager. As you mentioned if the Sox were smart, they'd let Ozzie go for a price. I think Miami would be a nice fit OG, until attendace reverts back to 8K a game in Miami and no reads his twitter feed, and he realizes how much he likes the media attention in the larger markets.

Based on the thus far positive performance out of the youngsters, the Sox may be in transition 2012-2013, and I wouldn't mind seeing a younger, 'under the radar' (insert snide KW comment) manager to go along with that. I have no idea who that would be, just a thought.

waldo_the_wolf
08-22-2011, 06:05 PM
Getting back to Joey Cora, he does have some managing experience. Granted, it was in the minors, but at least he's managed before.

russ99
08-22-2011, 06:28 PM
If this club needs a break, I'd prefer a clean break. Too many "Sox people" getting a free ride from the Chairman now. We need less of those in the organization, not more.

If KW/Ozzie comes back next year (wouldn't surprise me) I'd hope that at least the coaching staff be changed up.

steviestayfresh
08-22-2011, 08:28 PM
wow...a lot of La Russa haters out there. Read "3 Nights In August". I gained a whole new appreciation for La Russa. He's one of the most intelligent people in the game.

He has a winning record in 12 of his 16 seasons with the Cardinals. 5 pennants and 2 world series rings? I don't know why you wouldn't hire him?

I would love if LaRussa and Duncan came to the south side.

A. Cavatica
08-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Ozzie needs to go, but LaRussa's time has passed. I'd rather see someone new, with fewer ties to the organization.

steviestayfresh
08-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Agreed. They are self-important whiners who mistakenly fashion themselves as the keepers of baseball etiquette.

I don't want them here.

Have you read "3 Nights in August?"

Daver
08-22-2011, 08:45 PM
Have you read "3 Nights in August?"

I don't need too, I saw what Tony did the first time around, and remain unimpressed to this very day. As someone that wanted Ozzie fired the day he was hired I would prefer to see Ozzie return over LaRussa.

steviestayfresh
08-22-2011, 09:17 PM
I don't need too, I saw what Tony did the first time around, and remain unimpressed to this very day. As someone that wanted Ozzie fired the day he was hired I would prefer to see Ozzie return over LaRussa.

Ya, 25 years ago. Atleast it would be a proven manager who knows how to manage a pitching staff.

JB98
08-22-2011, 09:23 PM
Have you read "3 Nights in August?"

Yes.

Daver
08-22-2011, 09:25 PM
Ya, 25 years ago. Atleast it would be a proven manager who knows how to manage a pitching staff.


Manage a pitching staff to do what?

Proven in what? What criteria does a manager need to be "proven"?

Tony Larussa has "proven" that he can bring a team to the pharmacy behind the gym.

steviestayfresh
08-22-2011, 09:38 PM
Manage a pitching staff to do what?

Proven in what? What criteria does a manager need to be "proven"?

Tony Larussa has "proven" that he can bring a team to the pharmacy behind the gym.

Wow, you obviously haven't watched much white sox baseball this year. Ozzie continually mismanages the bullpen and leaves starters in too long. His "sunday lineups" make me want to puke. Juan Pierre, Omar Vizquel, etc. They are on our team because they are "Ozzie guys"? Lets take a look at other "Ozzie guys" Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson, Dwayne Wise. You have to be kidding me, what a joke!

Proven as in LaRussa's 32 years experience to Ozzie's 8. More pennants and more world series'. A guy who has more baseball intelligence than Ozzie will ever have.

gosox41
08-22-2011, 10:02 PM
I can't stand Tony LaRussa. He's a very good manager as his teams are always contending but I can't stand him.


I agree. If people think Ozzie's bad because he won't shut up wait till they hear Tony Larussa contradict himself and then try to lawyer his way out of whatever garbage spews from his mouth.

See his comments of McGwire as an example.

BTW, if LaRussa comes, is he our new hitting coach. Ugghh,


Bob

DumpJerry
08-22-2011, 10:08 PM
Ozzie is under contract for 2012. Why does everyone think he's going anywhere?

It's not everyone. It's the same 20 or so people who keep repeating the same mantra over and over. It only seems like everyone is on that bandwagon.

Good point but the talk from numerous and respected baseball people is that with the new stadium set to open, the Marlins owner wants Ozzie to be there for it.

Lip

I'm having a birthday party next and I want Ozzie to be there for it. Something tells me he won't make it.:whiner:

Wow, you obviously haven't watched much white sox baseball this year. Ozzie continually mismanages the bullpen and leaves starters in too long. His "sunday lineups" make me want to puke. Juan Pierre, Omar Vizquel, etc. They are on our team because they are "Ozzie guys"? Lets take a look at other "Ozzie guys" Jerry Owens, Brian Anderson, Dwayne Wise. You have to be kidding me, what a joke!

Proven as in LaRussa's 32 years experience to Ozzie's 8. More pennants and more world series'. A guy who has more baseball intelligence than Ozzie will ever have.
You're new here.
:welcome:

amsteel
08-22-2011, 10:17 PM
Comparing raw W/L records between managers is tough since teams can vary in talent, so the best comparison I can think of for manager ability/talent is record in one run games. Yeah yeah yeah, it not perfect, but most people will agree that winning/losing one run games often comes down to managerial ability/decision making.

1-run game performance since 2004 (Per Baseball Reference):
LaRussa 174-182 (.487)
Guillen 192-165 (.537)

Of course, LaRussa has 2 pennants and 1 ring in that timeframe.

Are there any other ways to measure 'manager ability'? I would be interested to run some numbers if anyone else can come up with some metrics.

As a stathead it drives me nuts when people make arguments with zero basis other than personal perception. Cite your sources and show your work if you want people to actually listen to your argument.

doublem23
08-22-2011, 10:21 PM
It's not everyone. It's the same 20 or so people who keep repeating the same mantra over and over. It only seems like everyone is on that bandwagon.


If you only think "20 or so" people want Ozzie gone, that's just crazy.

I would say there's not even 20 or regular posters that want him back

DSpivack
08-22-2011, 10:57 PM
As a stathead it drives me nuts when people make arguments with zero basis other than personal perception. Cite your sources and show your work if you want people to actually listen to your argument.

Except that I am unaware of any statistics that reflect the quality of the manager. As I think the biggest part of being a coach/manager in sports today is massaging big egos, I'm not sure it makes sense to do that.

amsteel
08-23-2011, 12:15 AM
Except that I am unaware of any statistics that reflect the quality of the manager. As I think the biggest part of being a coach/manager in sports today is massaging big egos, I'm not sure it makes sense to do that.

If no one can definitively 'prove' one manager is better than another arguing the merits of one candidate over another is an exercise in futility. It's like arguing over what the best flavor of ice cream, it's purely subjective. I attempted to quantify it by one (admittedly simplistic) metric. Others ways of measuring manager ability have to exist. I'll admit I like Guillen more than LaRussa, but it's a personal preference. Both have shown ability to have success in MLB. Also for the record, you can jog on if you don't like Oreo ice cream.

If the main role of baseball managers was managing egos, every team should have someone with and MBA in management in the dugout. While I agree the role of the manager as babysitter is important, I think baseball acumen should be the top quality of a manager, and for a manager baseball acumen means the ability to make the right decisions in tight situations, which is why I though 1-run games is a decent indicator of manager ability.

steviestayfresh
08-23-2011, 08:11 AM
You're new here.
:welcome:

So clever and original Mr. Gold member.

DumpJerry
08-23-2011, 09:00 AM
If you only think "20 or so" people want Ozzie gone, that's just crazy.

I would say there's not even 20 or regular posters that want him back
It is the same people who keep beating the "fire 'em all" drum over and over.

Frontman
08-23-2011, 09:05 AM
please make LaRussa/Duncan go away.

Not to mention LaRussa can't win without PED help and acts blind to that issue. I don't want him anywhere near the Sox dugout ever again.

soxfan1965
08-24-2011, 01:16 PM
This article has an interested photoshopped photo of Ozzie if he goes at the end of the year --> to the North Side. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7240846-419/cubs-should-hire-ozzie-guillen-if-they-want-a-real-game-changer.html

hi im skot
08-24-2011, 01:45 PM
This article has an interested photoshopped photo of Ozzie if he goes at the end of the year --> to the North Side. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7240846-419/cubs-should-hire-ozzie-guillen-if-they-want-a-real-game-changer.html

I'm so ****ing tired of the photoshop jobs of players who may become free agents. With the whole LeBron debacle, ESPN was constantly showing pictures of James wearing Knicks, Bulls and Clippers jerseys. The same thing happened with Favre, and I expect to see the same with Pujols. It's like someone sat down and said, "LOOK WHAT WE CAN DO WITH TECHNOLOGY!"

Maybe it's dumb thing to complain about, but it's pretty stupid, and seems to be a pretty good example of stirring the pot.

soxinem1
08-24-2011, 02:28 PM
This article has an interested photoshopped photo of Ozzie if he goes at the end of the year --> to the North Side. http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7240846-419/cubs-should-hire-ozzie-guillen-if-they-want-a-real-game-changer.html

This will not happen, and for one basic reason:

Ozzie HATES the old ballparks. He hated Comiskey with a passion, hates Fenway, hated Tiger Stadium, and we all know how much he 'loves' Wrigley Field.

I remember Guillen stating about how embarrassing it was to be a MLB player and have to even come to a place like Comiskey.

Can you imagine Ozzie pissed off after tough games in the ice cube-sized clubhouse and the flooded dugout after a sprinkle of rain?

No way.

Harry Chappas
08-24-2011, 02:53 PM
It is the same people who keep beating the "fire 'em all" drum over and over.

I disagree. It seems like more and more posters are starting to shift towards the "fire Ozzie and/or Kenny" line of thinking. I've been a huge supporter of both of them and I've reached the point where I'm fed up. I used to blame the players but the reality is that Ozzie continues to cost the Sox valuable games with his devotion to Dunn and odd pitching decisions. I'd probably give Kenny somewhat of a "pass" considering how hard it would be to predict the complete mess that is Dunn and Rios but would support sweeping changes if based solely on our awful farm system.

Nellie_Fox
08-24-2011, 03:58 PM
I disagree. It seems like more and more posters are starting to shift towards the "fire Ozzie and/or Kenny" line of thinking.Maybe, but I think there's also a certain amount of fatigue setting in among those who are okay with Ozzie coming back, because they get tired of the same argument day after day after day after day. Those who want Ozzie gone, no questions asked, are far more passionate about it than those who don't necessarily want him gone, and nobody who is luke-warm on a topic wants to constantly argue with people who are all fired up. And, yes, that means I think that the support for Ozzie is only luke-warm.

A. Cavatica
08-24-2011, 10:34 PM
Maybe, but I think there's also a certain amount of fatigue setting in among those who are okay with Ozzie coming back, because they get tired of the same argument day after day after day after day. Those who want Ozzie gone, no questions asked, are far more passionate about it than those who don't necessarily want him gone, and nobody who is luke-warm on a topic wants to constantly argue with people who are all fired up. And, yes, that means I think that the support for Ozzie is only luke-warm.

Or maybe it worked like this:

Ozzie detractor: "Watch, he's going to do stupid thing X and cost us the game."

Ozzie supporter: "No way! 2005!"

[Ozzie does stupid thing X and costs us the game]

Ozzie detractor: "See? Watch, he'll do it again tomorrow night."

Ozzie supporter: "That was just a fluke! 2005!"

[Ozzie does stupid thing X and costs us another game]

Ozzie detractor: "He'll also do stupid thing Y, and then he'll call out the fans."

[Ozzie does stupid thing Y and then calls out the fans]

Ozzie supporter: "OK, I concede."

doublem23
08-24-2011, 10:38 PM
Or maybe it worked like this:


No that is so super generalized it's detracting from your stance if that's what you really think Ozzie supporters' positions are. And I want Ozzie fired, but you don't do yourself any favors if you can't even articulate the other side's argument.

A. Cavatica
08-24-2011, 10:52 PM
No that is so super generalized it's detracting from your stance if that's what you really think Ozzie supporters' positions are. And I want Ozzie fired, but you don't do yourself any favors if you can't even articulate the other side's argument.

For the life of me, I can't understand how Ozzie has any supporters left at all.

doublem23
08-24-2011, 10:54 PM
For the life of me, I can't understand how Ozzie has any supporters left at all.

Paint my wagon shocked

WhiteSox5187
08-24-2011, 11:53 PM
This will not happen, and for one basic reason:

Ozzie HATES the old ballparks. He hated Comiskey with a passion, hates Fenway, hated Tiger Stadium, and we all know how much he 'loves' Wrigley Field.

I remember Guillen stating about how embarrassing it was to be a MLB player and have to even come to a place like Comiskey.

Can you imagine Ozzie pissed off after tough games in the ice cube-sized clubhouse and the flooded dugout after a sprinkle of rain?

No way.

Earlier this year on a Fox This Week In baseball sort of thing Ozzie listed his two favorite stadiums to play at (as either a player or a manager) were Old Comiskey and Tiger Stadium. I think his complaints with the older stadiums is that you don't have the technology or comforts of newer stadiums and I can see how that can be a detraction.