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View Full Version : KW: I still don't have a feel about this team after 120 games


Fenway
08-17-2011, 10:50 AM
:?:
49-38 since May 7th - 4th best in AL

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7110755-574/white-sox-finally-get-past-500-but-ken-williams-says-team-hard-to-read.html

SI1020
08-17-2011, 11:01 AM
19-18 since July 2.

doublem23
08-17-2011, 11:02 AM
1-0 in the last 24 hours

SI1020
08-17-2011, 11:05 AM
1-0 in the last 24 hours 9-2 since the Red Sox/Yankees debacle. Perhaps another good run like last year is in the cards. I hope so.

Dibbs
08-17-2011, 11:24 AM
61-60 since April 1st.

kevingrt
08-17-2011, 11:40 AM
61-60 since April 1st.

Come on Dibbs... You win 60 you lose 60 so obviously those first 120 didn't matter. It's all about these last 42 and now we are 1-0. This season is OVAH!

LITTLE NELL
08-17-2011, 11:53 AM
I know exactly what KW means, I don't know what to expect in the last 45 days of the season. 81-81 is probable but 87-75 or 78-84 is possible. At this point none of those records will shock me, of course I'm hoping for 87-75.

Lip Man 1
08-17-2011, 11:53 AM
389-381 since the start of the 2007 season.

Lip

BleacherBandit
08-17-2011, 11:55 AM
389-381 since the start of the 2007 season.

Lip

Well, anybody could tell you the franchise has been mediocre since the beginning of the 2007 season!

pythons007
08-17-2011, 12:02 PM
8688-8473 since 1901

DumpJerry
08-17-2011, 12:06 PM
8688-8473 since 1901
Wrong. 8,689-8,473 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/).

Please don't shortchange the Good Guys.

Milw
08-17-2011, 12:08 PM
Wrong. 8,689-8,473 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/).

Please don't shortchange the Good Guys.
It is rather hard to believe this franchise is above .500 all time, given the whole 88 years thing.

cleanwsox
08-17-2011, 12:50 PM
Wrong. 8,689-8,473 (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/CHW/).

Please don't shortchange the Good Guys.


You win 8,000 and lose 8,000. It's what you do with the other 1,162 games that matters.

Jimmy Piersall
08-17-2011, 12:54 PM
You win 8,000 and lose 8,000. It's what you do with the other 1,162 games that matters.


:rolling:

SI1020
08-17-2011, 12:54 PM
Well, anybody could tell you the franchise has been mediocre since the beginning of the 2007 season! Since mid 06.

LITTLE NELL
08-17-2011, 12:55 PM
It is rather hard to believe this franchise is above .500 all time, given the whole 88 years thing.

The Sox as a franchise has had some pretty good runs, the early years (1900-1920). The Go Go years (1951-1967) which were my favorite and 2000 to now which has been on the whole pretty good with 3 division titles along with 2005. I think we had the 3rd best record in MLB in the first decade of this century. We had some good teams in the Jimmy Dykes era which was part of the 40 year draught. Other great years were 1972,1977,1981 first half, 1983, 1990, and 1993. 82, 91 and 92 were winning seasons also. And of course 1994 which was taken away from us. Another thing to remember is that the Sox have only had 3 seasons out of 111 where they lost 100 games or more.
For comparison sake look how many times some franhises have lost 100+ games......Red Sox-7........Phillies-14..........Braves-13.....A's-13

asindc
08-17-2011, 01:05 PM
The Sox as a franchise has had some pretty good runs, the early years (1900-1920). The Go Go years (1951-1967) which were my favorite and 2000 to now which has been on the whole pretty good with 3 division titles along with 2005. I think we had the 3rd best record in MLB in the first decade of this century. We had some good teams in the Jimmy Dykes era which was part of the 40 year draught. Other great years were 1972,1977,1981 first half, 1983, 1990, and 1993. 82, 91 and 92 were winning seasons also. And of course 1994 which was taken away from us. Another thing to remember is that the Sox have only had 3 seasons out of 111 where they lost 100 games or more.

Ahhh... '94. I still get wistful thinking about what might have been. If not for '05, **** you JR!:angry:

gobears1987
08-17-2011, 01:24 PM
Well, anybody could tell you the franchise has been mediocre since the beginning of the 2007 season!

WSI would have you think it's been the worst franchise in baseball since then.

*Correction* Second worst, no one says the Flubs are better than us.

chisoxfanatic
08-17-2011, 02:22 PM
9-2 since the Red Sox/Yankees debacle. Perhaps another good run like last year is in the cards. I hope so.
The competition has also been pretty weak. BUT, it's good to see that they're finally starting to not take the so-called "weak" teams nearly as lightly.

jdm2662
08-17-2011, 02:46 PM
The competition has also been pretty weak. BUT, it's good to see that they're finally starting to not take the so-called "weak" teams nearly as lightly.

When you beat the lesser teams and win at home, you can afford a bad week against good teams. The problem with this team wasn't the week they got their asses kicked by BOS and NYY. It was all the other stuff...

DumpJerry
08-17-2011, 03:20 PM
The competition has also been pretty weak. BUT, it's good to see that they're finally starting to not take the so-called "weak" teams nearly as lightly.
Last year's run was against mostly weak teams.

doublem23
08-17-2011, 03:25 PM
Last year's run was against mostly weak teams.

And look what last year's run got us.

Fenway
08-17-2011, 03:30 PM
Ahhh... '94. I still get wistful thinking about what might have been. If not for '05, **** you JR!:angry:

Nos Amours would have beaten you - but at least the White Sox still exist

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qwmL-TRgGvM/TZCjyzhfH8I/AAAAAAAAAGU/_g54xIcef-s/s1600/1994_Banner.jpg

kittle42
08-17-2011, 03:34 PM
This team gives me a feel...like I want to throw up.

asindc
08-17-2011, 03:34 PM
Nos Amours would have beaten you - but at least the White Sox still exist

I think not.

DumpJerry
08-17-2011, 03:48 PM
And look what last year's run got us.
That's my point.

PalehosePlanet
08-17-2011, 03:49 PM
:?:
49-38 since May 7th - 4th best in AL

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7110755-574/white-sox-finally-get-past-500-but-ken-williams-says-team-hard-to-read.html

It's 50-38 if you include the win on May 7th. Our season's low point was 11-22 after the May 6th loss in Seattle.

The last three years we've been around 10 under .500 in May or June; then have to make the long road back to respectability. This pattern annoys the hell out me.

downstairs
08-17-2011, 03:51 PM
Come on Dibbs... You win 60 you lose 60 so obviously those first 120 didn't matter. It's all about these last 42 and now we are 1-0. This season is OVAH!

That's great- made me laugh.

Now we just gotta go 41-0 to prove the haters wrong.

downstairs
08-17-2011, 03:52 PM
Nos Amours would have beaten you - but at least the White Sox still exist

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qwmL-TRgGvM/TZCjyzhfH8I/AAAAAAAAAGU/_g54xIcef-s/s1600/1994_Banner.jpg

Did they really hang that banner? That's a tad bit tacky.

A. Cavatica
08-17-2011, 09:59 PM
Earth to Kenny: try feeling bad about this team. It fits them.

captain54
08-17-2011, 10:11 PM
It's comforting to know our GM doesn't have a handle on the team, doesn't have a handle on whether things need fixing or not.

chisoxfanatic
08-17-2011, 11:40 PM
It's comforting to know our GM doesn't have a handle on the team, doesn't have a handle on whether things need fixing or not.
No kidding. It is officially past the 75% mark of the season. If our GM "doesn't have a handle on things" at this stage of the season, he has no business being our GM. C'mon, Jerry. Stop being so loyal and get someone competent in the front office!

Johnny Mostil
08-18-2011, 04:27 AM
No kidding. It is officially past the 75% mark of the season. If our GM "doesn't have a handle on things" at this stage of the season, he has no business being our GM. C'mon, Jerry. Stop being so loyal and get someone competent in the front office!

Regardless of whether Williams should stay or go, I didn't read the article as saying "our GM 'doesn't have a handle on things.'" He seemed to have more of a "wait-and-see" attitude. I'm guessing that's the same most Sox fans have at this point.

asindc
08-18-2011, 07:02 AM
Regardless of whether Williams should stay or go, I didn't read the article as saying "our GM 'doesn't have a handle on things.'" He seemed to have more of a "wait-and-see" attitude. I'm guessing that's the same most Sox fans have at this point.

It didn't say that at all, but you've been posting here long enough to know that some posters will simply make up their own narrative to fit their perception.

Johnny Mostil
08-18-2011, 07:04 AM
It didn't say that at all, but you've been posting here long enough to know that some posters will simply make up their own narrative to fit their perception.
:redface::wink:

Hitmen77
08-18-2011, 07:57 AM
:?:
49-38 since May 7th - 4th best in AL

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/7110755-574/white-sox-finally-get-past-500-but-ken-williams-says-team-hard-to-read.html

After hitting the 11-22 low mark on May 6, the Sox went on a little run that brought them back up to 4 games under .500 by May 22.

That was 3 months ago. Since then, this team has been playing about .500 ball and hovering just below the .500 mark most of that time. We'll see if their success over the last 10-15 games marks the long-awaited turnaround. Otherwise, the Sox have on track for 3 months now toward a 80 or 81-win finish.

Fenway
08-18-2011, 08:29 AM
Did they really hang that banner? That's a tad bit tacky.

Quebec is the tacky capital of the world :tongue:

captain54
08-18-2011, 11:36 AM
Regardless of whether Williams should stay or go, I didn't read the article as saying "our GM 'doesn't have a handle on things.'" He seemed to have more of a "wait-and-see" attitude. I'm guessing that's the same most Sox fans have at this point.

"Wait and see" attitude for what? If not for the Sox being in the weakest division in MLB, this would all be a non-issue.

I read the article to mean that like all of us, KW reads the team as being inconsistent. So, as a result he hasn't a fixed idea on how or what to improve. No matter how you interpret this, the fact of the matter is it's 120 games into the season and the GM doesn't have a definite answer as to how to fix what's wrong with this stumbling .500 bunch of performers.

Bottom line Kenny, you put together a mediocre team with mediocre talent. They're inconsistent, meaning sometimes they're good and sometimes they're bad.

kittle42
08-18-2011, 11:42 AM
Bottom line Kenny, you put together a mediocre team with mediocre talent.

Quit building a team to compete in a crappy division and instead build a team to compete for the World Series and then you have something going.

The Sox organization is happy to be in a **** division, because mediocrity can still maybe get you in the playoffs.

That is a **** attitude.

asindc
08-18-2011, 11:51 AM
"Wait and see" attitude for what? If not for the Sox being in the weakest division in MLB, this would all be a non-issue.

I read the article to mean that like all of us, KW reads the team as being inconsistent. So, as a result he hasn't a fixed idea on how or what to improve. No matter how you interpret this, the fact of the matter is it's 120 games into the season and the GM doesn't have a definite answer as to how to fix what's wrong with this stumbling .500 bunch of performers.

Bottom line Kenny, you put together a mediocre team with mediocre talent. They're inconsistent, meaning sometimes they're good and sometimes they're bad.

I take that you think JR and the other owners had authorized KW to spend more money before the non-waiver trade deadline (and also spend more on draft signings), but he simply chose not to do so.

Who among the Sox regulars do you consider to be mediocre talents?

captain54
08-18-2011, 12:01 PM
I take that you think JR and the other owners had authorized KW to spend more money before the non-waiver trade deadline (and also spend more on draft signings), but he simply chose not to do so.

Who among the Sox regulars do you consider to be mediocre talents?

None.. I consider every player on the roster to be among the most elite players in MLB. I consider, like you, KW to be a genius and to have the keen eye for talent, and business acumen to put together one of the elite teams in MLB and a true powerhouse. Not Kenny's fault that these scoundrels are not performing up their capabilities and undermining all of KW's magnificent genius.

asindc
08-18-2011, 12:13 PM
None.. I consider every player on the roster to be among the most elite players in MLB. I consider, like you, KW to be a genius and to have the keen eye for talent, and business acumen to put together one of the elite teams in MLB and a true powerhouse. Not Kenny's fault that these scoundrels are not performing up their capabilities and undermining all of KW's magnificent genius.

Your sarcasm aside, I noticed in your continued apparent confusion about the difference between talent and performance, you have failed to answer my question. Maybe you would have preferred KW to have signed Mike Cameron or Carl Crawford instead of Alex Rios, or re-sign Bobby Jenks instead of signing Jesse Crain, or sign any one of Edgar Renteria/Julio Lugo/Marco Scutaro instead of Alexei Ramirez, but he didn't. You can blame him for that all you want, but I'm glad he made those choices. Let some other GM pay Julio Lugo $9 million to not play for his team.

kittle42
08-18-2011, 12:18 PM
Maybe would have preferred KW to have signed Mike Cameron or Carl Crawford instead of Alex Rios

I hear Nate Schierholtz was available.

asindc
08-18-2011, 12:19 PM
I hear Nate Schierholtz was available.

Well, Epstein certainly screwed that one up, didn't he?

Lip Man 1
08-18-2011, 12:43 PM
:D::D:

LOL

Regarding the 49-38 mark since May 7th.

That would be great....if the season hadn't started a month earlier.

Which is another major problem, at best the Sox have been mediocre to start a season for the past five years in a row. At worst they've been putrid.

Who's fault is that?

Not once, not twice but FIVE straight years despite many different players being on the roster in that time span.

Lip

Milw
08-18-2011, 12:45 PM
Quit building a team to compete in a crappy division and instead build a team to compete for the World Series and then you have something going.

The Sox organization is happy to be in a **** division, because mediocrity can still maybe get you in the playoffs.

That is a **** attitude.
For sure. One of these days KW will go out and sign the most sought-after free agent on the market.

Oh, wait.

kittle42
08-18-2011, 02:20 PM
For sure. One of these days KW will go out and sign the most sought-after free agent on the market.

Oh, wait.

It was the same team as last year (generally) with a substantially better (before the season started) DH.

That is still fielding a team that can be "competitive" in a crap division, and not much more.

captain54
08-18-2011, 03:13 PM
Your sarcasm aside, I noticed in your continued apparent confusion about the difference between talent and performance, you have failed to answer my question.

The reason I didn't answer your question directly is because we can blah blah blah and go back and forth as much as what with this, but the bottom line is we don't get paid to General Manage a team with one of the top payrolls in MLB in one of the biggest markets in the US...

And since we don't make those decisions, there's really no accountability
for your opinion, my opinion, or anyone's opinion for that matter.

We'll never know the coulda, shoulda, wouldas and the behind the scenes/inside info on what deals coulda been made. Or shoulda been made. We can only go by our limited info and speculate on what we think Kenny did right or what Kenny did wrong.

In the end, no matter how you shake and bake it, we have yet another disappointing season under our belt. And yet again, no one is really held accountable and the finger pointing is already beginning to brew the more the Sox struggle to climb over .500.

All the "Sox have talent just underperforming" is a bunch of crap. They are performing to their capability. If you wanna buy the hocus pocus houdini Medicine Man carnival barker sideshow of Kenny's that he put together a winner and a powerhouse, its the players that are messing up his master plan...go right ahead...have at it.

asindc
08-18-2011, 03:37 PM
The reason I didn't answer your question directly is because we can blah blah blah and go back and forth as much as what with this, but the bottom line is we don't get paid to General Manage a team with one of the top payrolls in MLB in one of the biggest markets in the US...

And since we don't make those decisions, there's really no accountability
for your opinion, my opinion, or anyone's opinion for that matter.

We'll never know the coulda, shoulda, wouldas and the behind the scenes/inside info on what deals coulda been made. Or shoulda been made. We can only go by our limited info and speculate on what we think Kenny did right or what Kenny did wrong.

In the end, no matter how you shake and bake it, we have yet another disappointing season under our belt. And yet again, no one is really held accountable and the finger pointing is already beginning to brew the more the Sox struggle to climb over .500.

All the "Sox have talent just underperforming" is a bunch of crap. They are performing to their capability. If you wanna buy the hocus pocus houdini Medicine Man carnival barker sideshow of Kenny's that he put together a winner and a powerhouse, its the players that are messing up his master plan...go right ahead...have at it.

If you really believe that Dunn, Rios, Alexei, TCQ, and Thornton are performing as well as they are capable, then there is no reason for you to be surprised by any of their performances so far this year, including Dunn's .162-and-dropping batting average. Recent history just does not support that view, however.

If you want to speculate that KW could have signed better players, even if it meant spending more money than he did, but he simply chose not to do so, well, speculate away. I'll continue to look at the fact that all the players I just mentioned have in the very recent past performed well above their current production and that is what KW based his acquisition/re-signing of those players on.

EDIT: As I've said numerous times just this season alone, if the Sox can find a better GM than KW, by all means lets make a change. I've also said more times than I can count that KW's neglect of the farm system is enough to warrant a change, IF JR is not the driving force behind the state of the farm system (if he is, it won't make a bit of difference who the GM is unless JR changes his stance on scouting and development). But badly-performing FAs who have not performed nearly this badly before is not something within the GM's control. Just what do you expect Epstein to do about Jenks, Lackey, and Crawford anyway?

captain54
08-18-2011, 03:51 PM
I'll continue to look at the fact that all the players I just mentioned have in the very recent past performed well above their current production and that is what KW based his acquisition/re-signing of those players on.


And that's probably how a lot of GM's operate, but if it was that easy anyone could GM. Just plug in the numbers of past performances and stats into what you already have an Voila! .. there's your World Series Champ...on paper.

asindc
08-18-2011, 04:00 PM
And that's probably how a lot of GM's operate, but if it was that easy anyone could GM. Just plug in the numbers of past performances and stats into what you already have an Voila! .. there's your World Series Champ...on paper.

Yeah, just ask Brian Cashman about every season for the past eight, except 2009. Or Omar Minaya. Or Ned Coletti. Or Dave Dombrowski. Or J.P. Riccardi. Soothsaying is not a skill a GM should be expected to have. Why none of those guys signed Albert Pujols away from the Cardinals I'll never understand.

captain54
08-18-2011, 04:36 PM
. Soothsaying is not a skill a GM should be expected to have. .

True.. but having a big market payroll and putting a winning club on the field IS a skill a GM should be expected to have. Kind of alarming to look
at the number of clubs with a better record than the Sox, yet a lower payroll.

Tragg
08-18-2011, 04:43 PM
True.. but having a big market payroll and putting a winning club on the field IS a skill a GM should be expected to have. Kind of alarming to look
at the number of clubs with a better record than the Sox, yet a lower payroll.
Yep.

kittle42
08-18-2011, 04:44 PM
Lost among many in the assessment of Kenny is also the putrid state of the organization's farm system. We seriously cannot for get that. It's not just the major league roster that falls under his purview.

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2011, 08:59 PM
Quit building a team to compete in a crappy division and instead build a team to compete for the World Series and then you have something going.

The Sox organization is happy to be in a **** division, because mediocrity can still maybe get you in the playoffs.

That is a **** attitude.

I agree, but that type of team cannot be built solely through free agency and trades. We need a strong minor league system that can provide a steady stream of position players who can field and hit well, and pitchers who can pitch well. Then, you trade from areas of surplus to address areas of weakness, and fill in the blanks with free agents.

Frater Perdurabo
08-18-2011, 09:02 PM
Lost among many in the assessment of Kenny is also the putrid state of the organization's farm system. We seriously cannot for get that. It's not just the major league roster that falls under his purview.

I didn't see this post when I responded to your earlier post. I agree completely.

Lip Man 1
08-18-2011, 10:28 PM
Frater:

Keep in mind something Eddie Einhorn said very early on after he and JR got control of the franchise. (Paraphrasing) 'We don't think the way to win is through the farm system, we think the way to do it is through free agency and smart trades...'

I remember distinctly him saying that because my first thought after the Veeck regime was along the lines of 'great...the Sox are going to start operating like a major market franchise...aka Yankees'

And they did for three years, then JR found out the "cost" of winning as well as the conspiracy to drive down free agent salalries by owners refusing to go after them.

Given the Sox have spent less money than anybody in baseball the past five years on the minor league system (Dirty Sox brought that to our attention) you wonder if EE's comments still hold true.

Lip

DSpivack
08-18-2011, 10:58 PM
Frater:

Keep in mind something Eddie Einhorn said very early on after he and JR got control of the franchise. (Paraphrasing) 'We don't think the way to win is through the farm system, we think the way to do it is through free agency and smart trades...'

I remember distinctly him saying that because my first thought after the Veeck regime was along the lines of 'great...the Sox are going to start operating like a major market franchise...aka Yankees'

And they did for three years, then JR found out the "cost" of winning as well as the conspiracy to drive down free agent salalries by owners refusing to go after them.

Given the Sox have spent less money than anybody in baseball the past five years on the minor league system (Dirty Sox brought that to our attention) you wonder if EE's comments still hold true.

Lip

I really don't get that philosophy, either. I think that drafting and developing talent would only save money in the long run, as young talent is also affordable talent.

asindc
08-19-2011, 07:34 AM
Frater:

Keep in mind something Eddie Einhorn said very early on after he and JR got control of the franchise. (Paraphrasing) 'We don't think the way to win is through the farm system, we think the way to do it is through free agency and smart trades...'

I remember distinctly him saying that because my first thought after the Veeck regime was along the lines of 'great...the Sox are going to start operating like a major market franchise...aka Yankees'

And they did for three years, then JR found out the "cost" of winning as well as the conspiracy to drive down free agent salalries by owners refusing to go after them.

Given the Sox have spent less money than anybody in baseball the past five years on the minor league system (Dirty Sox brought that to our attention) you wonder if EE's comments still hold true.

Lip

Anyone assuming that things will change if there are changes in management should read your post, Lip. I've been making this point all along: Why is anyone so sure that the current organizational philosophies are not a direct reflection of what the owners want?

asindc
08-19-2011, 07:43 AM
I really don't get that philosophy, either. I think that drafting and developing talent would only save money in the long run, as young talent is also affordable talent.

I think the idea is that the Sox would rather spend money on proven talent than money on dozens of guys who will never contribute to the MLB's winning. I think there should be some balance (i.e., certain special talents are worth the risk, such as a Bryce Harbor, for instance), so I think the glaring weakness in the current structure is the neglect of scouting and development.

I was in the Dominican Republic in November 2009 at the beginning of their baseball season (what we call Winter Ball). I was there for a week and saw memorabilia for every MLB team except the Sox, and believe me, I was paying attention. I went to a game and talked to a few MLB scouts from several teams, including Detroit. As most observers know, the Sox have virtually no presence in the most talent-laden country per capita in the world. This is the kind of thing that absolutely must stop. Thing is, though, is it the owner that has to be persuaded, or only his GM?

SI1020
08-19-2011, 08:31 AM
I think the idea is that the Sox would rather spend money on proven talent than money on dozens of guys who will never contribute to the MLB's winning. I think there should be some balance (i.e., certain special talents are worth the risk, such as a Bryce Harbor, for instance), so I think the glaring weakness in the current structure is the neglect of scouting and development.

I was in the Dominican Republic in November 2009 at the beginning of their baseball season (what we call Winter Ball). I was there for a week and saw memorabilia for every MLB team except the Sox, and believe me, I was paying attention. I went to a game and talked to a few MLB scouts from several teams, including Detroit. As most observers know, the Sox have virtually no presence in the most talent-laden country per capita in the world. This is the kind of thing that absolutely must stop. Thing is, though, is it the owner that has to be persuaded, or only his GM? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they just get finished burning a few bridges there?