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Sockinchisox
08-15-2011, 01:33 PM
@jonmorosi
Jon Morosi
Breaking: #Tigers acquire Delmon Young from #Twins.

http://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/103172294704250881

GoGoCrede
08-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Drat, he's still in the division.

asindc
08-15-2011, 01:38 PM
For those of us who do not have access to Twitter, what are the details?

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 01:40 PM
Good. Delmon blows.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2011, 01:41 PM
For those of us who do not have access to Twitter, what are the details?

I just clicked the link and that's all it says. Probably breaking news, more details later.

GoGoCrede
08-15-2011, 01:42 PM
Scratch that, here's more:

Delmon Young earning $5.38 million this season but has a career-worst .662 OPS. But he has an .865 OPS in August -- best this year.


#Tigers (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Tigers) will have the option to bring Delmon Young back for '12 through salary arb. But he's been viewed as a non-tender candidate. #Twins (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Twins)


#Twins (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Twins) acquire left-handed pitcher Cole Nelson and PTBNL from #Tigers (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Tigers) for Delmon Young.

34 Inch Stick
08-15-2011, 01:43 PM
Good. Delmon blows.

Twins better be confident of it if they are going to trade a relatively young player within their division.

hawkjt
08-15-2011, 01:44 PM
Shocker...the Twins give the Tigers a boost just to beat the Sox!

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 01:44 PM
Twins better be confident of it if they are going to trade a relatively young player within their division.

He's got one year of arb left and he is already making close to 6 MIL. That's more than Quentin. Cole Nelson, the guy the Twins acquired, is 6-11 with an ERA just shy of 5 in low A.

Interesting move to say the least.

Chez
08-15-2011, 01:51 PM
I'd more concerned if the Tigers had acquired Bruce Chen.

bridgeportcopper
08-15-2011, 01:55 PM
They couldn't wait the 3 days til they are done playing each other! Roll over Twinkies!

SoxandtheCityTee
08-15-2011, 01:58 PM
I'd more concerned if the Tigers had acquired Bruce Chen.


:rolling::rolling: Classic.

FielderJones
08-15-2011, 02:00 PM
#Tigers (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Tigers) will have the option to bring Delmon Young back for '12 through salary arb. But he's been viewed as a non-tender candidate. #Twins (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Twins)


#Twins (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Twins) acquire left-handed pitcher Cole Nelson and PTBNL from #Tigers (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Tigers) for Delmon Young.

All these guys made it through waivers? No one bothered to put in a blocking claim?

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 02:02 PM
All these guys made it through waivers? No one bothered to put in a blocking claim?

He makes a ton of money and has been terrible. There are much more enticing names that have cleared waivers as well..http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/players-who-cleared-waivers.html

TheOldRoman
08-15-2011, 02:02 PM
They couldn't wait the 3 days til they are done playing each other! Roll over Twinkies!It's likely the Tigers put in a claim on Young, instead of him clearing waivers. When a team claims a player, the teams have three business days to work out a trade or call if off. For all we know Young might have been placed on waivers Wednesday.

doublem23
08-15-2011, 02:03 PM
All these guys made it through waivers? No one bothered to put in a blocking claim?

I think the Alex Rios incident has showed how that can go terribly, terribly wrong.

Delmon Young sucks. Thanks, Minnesota! :rolling:

TheOldRoman
08-15-2011, 02:06 PM
He makes a ton of money and has been terrible. There are much more enticing names that have cleared waivers as well..http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/players-who-cleared-waivers.htmlOh ****. Chen cleared waivers. He better not end up in Detroit.

^ Yes, I fully realize how horrible of a pitcher Bruce Chen is and how ridiculous it is that I would have to make the above statement. Still we have two series left against Detriot and will get Verlander at least once.

asindc
08-15-2011, 02:10 PM
I'd more concerned if the Tigers had acquired Bruce Chen.

Well played, Mauer.

CHISOXFAN13
08-15-2011, 02:11 PM
All these guys made it through waivers? No one bothered to put in a blocking claim?

Why on earth would anyone block this?

Young isn't cheap and he is having a bad year.

blandman
08-15-2011, 02:35 PM
Let me get this straight. Bruce Chen sucks, but Dan Hudson is awesome. Even though they're essentially the same player.

WSI, sometimes I don't get you.

Foulke You
08-15-2011, 02:45 PM
Oh ****. Chen cleared waivers. He better not end up in Detroit.

^ Yes, I fully realize how horrible of a pitcher Bruce Chen is and how ridiculous it is that I would have to make the above statement. Still we have two series left against Detriot and will get Verlander at least once.
We still have seven games in September remaining against KC. We could still end up seeing the amazing "Cy" Chen two more times anyway.:o:

TheOldRoman
08-15-2011, 02:47 PM
Let me get this straight. Bruce Chen sucks, but Dan Hudson is awesome. Even though they're essentially the same player.

WSI, sometimes I don't get you.C'mon, Munchie. That is ridiculous, even for you. I don't think Hudson is awesome by any means, but Bruce Chen is a horrible journeyman pitcher having one of the best years of his career. Although he has a 4.14 ERA, his ERA against the White Sox (more than 1/5 of his innings pitched) is 0.90, while his ERA against the rest of baseball is 5.05. Hudson is also not 34 years old, hasn't pitched for 10 organizations and his ERA isn't close to 5.05. Keep reaching.

1989
08-15-2011, 02:52 PM
Should've kept Matt Garza.

Oops.

blandman
08-15-2011, 03:03 PM
C'mon, Munchie. That is ridiculous, even for you. I don't think Hudson is awesome by any means, but Bruce Chen is a horrible journeyman pitcher having one of the best years of his career. Although he has a 4.14 ERA, his ERA against the White Sox (more than 1/5 of his innings pitched) is 0.90, while his ERA against the rest of baseball is 5.05. Hudson is also not 34 years old, hasn't pitched for 10 organizations and his ERA isn't close to 5.05. Keep reaching.

They have the same stuff, using numbers that aren't equal in situation to evaluate is a poor argument. Hudson has a flat low nineties fastball and decent breaking stuff that he locates well enough to dominate the bottom offenses in baseball, and gets torched every time he faces a top half offense (and when I say every time, I really mean that...look at the numbers). That's Bruce Chen. Romanticizing a #5 talent level starter and making fun of another is what's really ridiculous.

DirtySox
08-15-2011, 03:29 PM
C'mon, Munchie. That is ridiculous, even for you. I don't think Hudson is awesome by any means, but Bruce Chen is a horrible journeyman pitcher having one of the best years of his career. Although he has a 4.14 ERA, his ERA against the White Sox (more than 1/5 of his innings pitched) is 0.90, while his ERA against the rest of baseball is 5.05. Hudson is also not 34 years old, hasn't pitched for 10 organizations and his ERA isn't close to 5.05. Keep reaching.

Bland is Munch? It all hilariously makes sense now.

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 03:34 PM
They have the same stuff, using numbers that aren't equal in situation to evaluate is a poor argument. Hudson has a flat low nineties fastball and decent breaking stuff that he locates well enough to dominate the bottom offenses in baseball, and gets torched every time he faces a top half offense (and when I say every time, I really mean that...look at the numbers). That's Bruce Chen. Romanticizing a #5 talent level starter and making fun of another is what's really ridiculous.

I was not in the blindly anti-Hudson and Jackson- trade, but c'mon. I thought the trade was fine, and if we hadn't given up Holmberg too, it wouldn't bother me much at all. But Hudson is a mid-rotation pitcher that is under team control through 2015. Chen is a soft tossing lefty pitcher that somehow mystifies one team and is the poster boy of just average against everyone else.

Some posters here way overplay the Daniel Hudson thing, but he is no Bruce Chen.

TheOldRoman
08-15-2011, 03:42 PM
Bland is Munch? It all hilariously makes sense now.Yep. Daver and Doublem have confirmed it.

asindc
08-15-2011, 03:43 PM
Yep. Daver and Doublem have confirmed it.

That explains everything.

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 03:50 PM
Bland is Munch? It all hilariously makes sense now.

:rolling: Ahh how funny. Party ruined.

kittle42
08-15-2011, 04:02 PM
Bland is Munch? It all hilariously makes sense now.

Damn - I got punked. But not CM Punked.

PalehosePlanet
08-15-2011, 04:23 PM
They have the same stuff, using numbers that aren't equal in situation to evaluate is a poor argument. Hudson has a flat low nineties fastball and decent breaking stuff that he locates well enough to dominate the bottom offenses in baseball, and gets torched every time he faces a top half offense (and when I say every time, I really mean that...look at the numbers). That's Bruce Chen. Romanticizing a #5 talent level starter and making fun of another is what's really ridiculous.

:kneeslap:Hey Munch, should have changed your name to Blindman instead of Blandman.

thomas35forever
08-15-2011, 04:32 PM
I'm still more concerned about Ryan Raburn.

blandman
08-15-2011, 04:36 PM
:kneeslap:Hey Munch, should have changed your name to Blindman instead of Blandman.

Please state your reference showing their stuff is appreciably different. They're both junk-ballers, throwing low nineties four seamers with average breaking stuff. Show me something, anything, that says otherwise.

kittle42
08-15-2011, 05:08 PM
Please state your reference showing their stuff is appreciably different. They're both junk-ballers, throwing low nineties four seamers with average breaking stuff. Show me something, anything, that says otherwise.

One of them is apparently kinda good at it. The other, not so much anymore.

1989
08-15-2011, 05:10 PM
Please state your reference showing their stuff is appreciably different. They're both junk-ballers, throwing low nineties four seamers with average breaking stuff. Show me something, anything, that says otherwise.


Thus far this year, Hudson has averaged 93.2 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is averaging 83.2 MPH and his slider is 87.2 MPH.
- As far as his movement on his breaking balls, his changeup is averaging breaking 10.6 inches from left to right as well as dropping 3.2 inches vertically.
- His slider averages 0.9 inches of movement from right to left and breaks 2.5 inches vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=7146&position=P

Bruce Chen is averaging 87.4 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is at 77.4, his slider at 83.4, and his curveball is at 72.7.
- His changeup is breaking 8.2 inches from right to left and 6.6 inches vertically.
- Chen's slider is breaking 0.1 inches left to right, and 5.1 inches vertically
- His curve is breaking 5.6 left to right and 5.8 vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=769&position=P

There are your stats. As far as velocity on the fastball is concerned, you're definitely wrong. Whether which pitcher has the better breaking stuff is up to your interpretation. Hudson definitely has more velocity on his breaking pitches whereas Chen has significant break on his curveball and his changeup.

soxnut1018
08-15-2011, 05:16 PM
Thus far this year, Hudson has averaged 93.2 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is averaging 83.2 MPH and his slider is 87.2 MPH.
- As far as his movement on his breaking balls, his changeup is averaging breaking 10.6 inches from left to right as well as dropping 3.2 inches vertically.
- His slider averages 0.9 inches of movement from right to left and breaks 2.5 inches vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=7146&position=P

Bruce Chen is averaging 87.4 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is at 77.4, his slider at 83.4, and his curveball is at 72.7.
- His changeup is breaking 8.2 inches from right to left and 6.6 inches vertically.
- Chen's slider is breaking 0.1 inches left to right, and 5.1 inches vertically
- His curve is breaking 5.6 left to right and 5.8 vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=769&position=P

There are your stats. As far as velocity on the fastball is concerned, you're definitely wrong. Whether which pitcher has the better breaking stuff is up to your interpretation. Hudson definitely has more velocity on his breaking pitches whereas Chen has significant break on his curveball and his changeup.

Boom. Roasted.

ma-gaga
08-15-2011, 05:22 PM
There are your stats.

Where's the "like" button. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Maybe a little too much info, but still very awesome.


On the trade, this is definitely a Twins "dump". Delmon wasn't one of the top 3 outfielders for 2012. Let's see. Between, Span, Revere and one of Kubel/Cuddyer, that pretty much fills up their outfield next year. Plus they still have Hicks as their 'uber' prospect. ... yeah ... That whole Garza/Bartlett for Delmon Young deal was a bust. :scratch:

Zakath
08-15-2011, 05:23 PM
As long as they didn't get more help with their pitching. Right now, their team ERA is 4.23. If you subtract Verlander's numbers out of that, their team ERA is 4.65, which would make them 28th in baseball, only better than the 38-83 Astros and the 46-72 Orioles.

Avoid Verlander, and they are very VERY beatable. Unless you're the Twins, who have managed to go 1-12 vs. Detroit since the end of 2010.

blandman
08-15-2011, 05:23 PM
Thus far this year, Hudson has averaged 93.2 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is averaging 83.2 MPH and his slider is 87.2 MPH.
- As far as his movement on his breaking balls, his changeup is averaging breaking 10.6 inches from left to right as well as dropping 3.2 inches vertically.
- His slider averages 0.9 inches of movement from right to left and breaks 2.5 inches vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=7146&position=P

Bruce Chen is averaging 87.4 MPH on his 4-seam fastball. His changeup is at 77.4, his slider at 83.4, and his curveball is at 72.7.
- His changeup is breaking 8.2 inches from right to left and 6.6 inches vertically.
- Chen's slider is breaking 0.1 inches left to right, and 5.1 inches vertically
- His curve is breaking 5.6 left to right and 5.8 vertically.

http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=769&position=P

There are your stats. As far as velocity on the fastball is concerned, you're definitely wrong. Whether which pitcher has the better breaking stuff is up to your interpretation. Hudson definitely has more velocity on his breaking pitches whereas Chen has significant break on his curveball and his changeup.

Pitch f/x velocity is not the average velocity of the pitch and favors guys without a lot of sink on their pitches, as it's closer to an "out of hand" velocity as opposed to how fast, with gravity, the pitch gets to the plate. This is the same reason stadium guns are so inaccurate, the pitch velocity is taken closer to the pitcher than the batter. Guys with more sink on their pitches sustain higher velocity longer, but pitch f/x does not register this.

PalehosePlanet
08-15-2011, 05:23 PM
Please state your reference showing their stuff is appreciably different. They're both junk-ballers, throwing low nineties four seamers with average breaking stuff. Show me something, anything, that says otherwise.

Either you're being facetious or you've never seen either pitcher pitch. But, whatever, I'll be the ******* and bite.

Chen sits at 85-87 with his fastball at tops out at 88. He hasn't thrown in the low 90's since he was a Braves prospect a dozen years ago. His best pitch is his curveball -- when he gets it over and changes speeds with it.

Hudson sits between 92-94 with his fastball and tops out at 95. His change-up is already solid and improving and he does have good tailing action on the four seemer. His slider is so-so, more of a show-me-pitch. Hudson does not throw curveballs.

They are pretty much opposites.

SOXSINCE'70
08-15-2011, 06:17 PM
I'd more concerned if the Tigers had acquired Bruce Chen.

No, Kenny's going to acquire him.:D:

If you can't beat 'em,trade for 'em.

DirtySox
08-15-2011, 06:19 PM
Delmon just homered in his first AB against his former team.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
08-15-2011, 06:26 PM
No, Kenny's going to acquire him.:D:

If you can't beat 'em,trade for 'em.

But how can he pitch 0.90 against the Sox when he plays for them?

hawkjt
08-15-2011, 07:15 PM
Delmon just homered in his first AB against his former team.


yes, I saw him go deep vs Liriano to put the Tigers up early 1-0.

I did not realize that he only had 4 hrs,and 12 rbis coming into tonite.
Not good...lets hope he is not going to catch fire now.
I guess that Boesh of the tigers got hurt the other day so they need an outfielder? Boesh has hurt the Sox also.

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 08:35 PM
yes, I saw him go deep vs Liriano to put the Tigers up early 1-0.

I did not realize that he only had 4 hrs,and 12 rbis coming into tonite.
Not good...lets hope he is not going to catch fire now.
I guess that Boesh of the tigers got hurt the other day so they need an outfielder? Boesh has hurt the Sox also.

Boesch will be back early this week. Delmon has 32 RBI, not 12. Still terrible.

Chi Dye
08-16-2011, 12:15 AM
Just in the past year or so, the Tigers have acquired: Peralta from Cleveland, Betemit from KC, and Young from Minnesota. Coming soon must be Rios from Chicago. :tongue:

blandman
08-16-2011, 07:26 AM
Either you're being facetious or you've never seen either pitcher pitch. But, whatever, I'll be the ******* and bite.

Chen sits at 85-87 with his fastball at tops out at 88. He hasn't thrown in the low 90's since he was a Braves prospect a dozen years ago. His best pitch is his curveball -- when he gets it over and changes speeds with it.

Hudson sits between 92-94 with his fastball and tops out at 95. His change-up is already solid and improving and he does have good tailing action on the four seemer. His slider is so-so, more of a show-me-pitch. Hudson does not throw curveballs.

They are pretty much opposites.

I fail to see how no longer being able to throw 90 disqualifies Chen from being a junk baller, or how throwing a straight low nineties fastball disqualifies Hudson. They both rely on the same repertoire and gameplan the same when they face hitters. They're both low end games that are also enjoying similar seasons.

blandman
08-16-2011, 07:29 AM
Boesch will be back early this week. Delmon has 32 RBI, not 12. Still terrible.

And yet, he would only be like, what, the fifth worst regular in our lineup?

cws05champ
08-16-2011, 07:35 AM
I fail to see how no longer being able to throw 90 disqualifies Chen from being a junk baller, or how throwing a straight low nineties fastball disqualifies Hudson. They both rely on the same repertoire and gameplan the same when they face hitters. They're both low end games that are also enjoying similar seasons.

You clearly haven't seen Hudson pitch...he is not a junk baller. When you throw a moving 4 seamer at 93-95 you are not a junk ball pitcher. His fastball is not flat, it moves all over the place.

And yes, Chen and Hudson have the exact same gameplan against hitters. :rolleyes:

blandman
08-16-2011, 07:58 AM
You clearly haven't seen Hudson pitch...he is not a junk baller. When you throw a moving 4 seamer at 93-95 you are not a junk ball pitcher. His fastball is not flat, it moves all over the place.

And yes, Chen and Hudson have the exact same gameplan against hitters. :rolleyes:

WHAT? Someone in this thread even posted the movement calculations on his fastball, which moved 8.6 inches horizontal (which is slightly below average for a 4 seam fastball) and 6.3 inches down (which is on the low end of all pitchers in baseball for four seam movement). They don't get much straighter than what Hudson throws!

palehozenychicty
08-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Just in the past year or so, the Tigers have acquired: Peralta from Cleveland, Betemit from KC, and Young from Minnesota. Coming soon must be Rios from Chicago. :tongue:

We can only hope..Sheesh.

Oblong
08-16-2011, 08:17 AM
Maggs will be the odd man out in this. I like the pickup. Not saying it will mean anything yet but I like it simply because it's low risk. Didn't cost anything and he's only making $5 million this year and it's already mid August. No contract for next year so you can let him go if you don't like what he does. Plus he's only 25.

cws05champ
08-16-2011, 08:39 AM
WHAT? Someone in this thread even posted the movement calculations on his fastball, which moved 8.6 inches horizontal (which is slightly below average for a 4 seam fastball). They don't get much straighter than what Hudson throws!
Really?

In 2010, the average horizontal movement for a RHP was 5.3 inches, meaning Hudson's horizontal movement is well above average.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6oxf35Gsi6E/TT7jrcahofI/AAAAAAAAHQc/4Bnbr2rOKJY/s1600/2010MLBStarterAvgPitchBreak.jpg

hawkjt
08-16-2011, 11:10 AM
I heard Jessie Crain today on the Score and he was expressing puzzlement about the Twins moving Young within the division like this. It is a very strange move to help a team you are chasing when they have a couple of guys go down like Boesh and Guillen.

Tragg
08-16-2011, 11:18 AM
Just in the past year or so, the Tigers have acquired: Peralta from Cleveland, Betemit from KC, and Young from Minnesota. Coming soon must be Rios from Chicago. :tongue:

Honestly, that's worse than our haul from Kansas City...I know they gave up more to get that stuff.
Their move that will cost them was that pitcher from Seattle

blandman
08-16-2011, 11:39 AM
Really?

In 2010, the average horizontal movement for a RHP was 5.3 inches, meaning Hudson's horizontal movement is well above average.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6oxf35Gsi6E/TT7jrcahofI/AAAAAAAAHQc/4Bnbr2rOKJY/s1600/2010MLBStarterAvgPitchBreak.jpg

Fair enough, his horizontal would be above average. I stand corrected. Still has no drop, though.

TheOldRoman
08-16-2011, 12:23 PM
I heard Jessie Crain today on the Score and he was expressing puzzlement about the Twins moving Young within the division like this. It is a very strange move to help a team you are chasing when they have a couple of guys go down like Boesh and Guillen.The Twins are 10.5 back with a month and a half to play, so I think we can finally say that they are no longer chasing the Tigers. As was said, the Twins were set to non-tender him after the year anyway. As it is, they get a single A prospect with an off-shot of being something someday. It also help the organization which has had such a massive inferiority complex over the White Sox to know that this move might help cost the Sox the division.

BleacherBandit
08-16-2011, 12:30 PM
Ben Revere replacing Delmon Young? Hmm, doesn't seem like much of a change. If anything, it's a down-grade.

SI1020
08-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Some people just look at raw numbers on the stat geek sight of their choice. It does help to actually attend games and see the players in action. It also helps to understand the stat one is bowing at the altar of. Comparing Hudson to Chen is ludicrous.

blandman
08-16-2011, 01:08 PM
Some people just look at raw numbers on the stat geek sight of their choice. It does help to actually attend games and see the players in action. It also helps to understand the stat one is bowing at the altar of. Comparing Hudson to Chen is ludicrous.

No, it isn't really, he's just a younger version of him. His scout take is still a 4-5 guy who survives without a plus pitch because of his ability to locate. That's also Chen's scouting report.

Look at his starts. I posted a few weeks back about his ridiculous schedule, and how all but something like four of his starts all year were in the bottom half of offenses in baseball, and he faltered in all four of those other starts. Since then, facing a normal mix of opponents, his ERA has jumped more than a full run. As his schedule evens out over his career, he'll show himself to be more of a mid-4 era guy in the national league. Which is certainly Bruce Chen territory as well.