PDA

View Full Version : Is De Aza our leadoff man next year?


HarryChappas
08-13-2011, 10:35 PM
2012 OF- De Aza LF , Rios CF, Tank RF ???? Hmm? Hmm? CQ traded for sure to dump salary.

Nelfox02
08-13-2011, 10:49 PM
2012 OF- De Aza LF , Rios CF, Tank RF ???? Hmm? Hmm? CQ traded for sure to dump salary.


would not shock me at all to see this set up next year

BainesHOF
08-13-2011, 10:49 PM
To answer your question, yes.

TDog
08-13-2011, 10:56 PM
2012 OF- De Aza LF , Rios CF, Tank RF ???? Hmm? Hmm? CQ traded for sure to dump salary.

I hope not.

This was what I was afraid of when the Sox signed Dunn. Quentin is a better hitter than Dunn, a better fielder than Dunn and has more quality years ahead of him. And I don't think Viciedo will be the hitter Quentin is. If the Sox have to trade Quentin because of an idiotic signing of a roster black hole sucking up available payroll, I would find it most distressing.

BainesHOF
08-13-2011, 10:59 PM
It would be a shame if we let Quentin go. We need more of his competiveness, not less.

Brian26
08-13-2011, 11:01 PM
It would be a shame if we let Quentin go. We need more of his competiveness, not less.

It would be a shame if Quentin had to go to cover the costs, partially, of Rios' and Dunn's soul-stealing, franchise-destroying contracts.

SI1020
08-13-2011, 11:03 PM
2012 OF- De Aza LF , Rios CF, Tank RF ???? Hmm? Hmm? CQ traded for sure to dump salary. That is one depressing looking outfield.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2011, 11:07 PM
Agreed.

Shudder.

:o:

Lip

balke
08-13-2011, 11:09 PM
I love how everyone declares Viciedo to be the saviour but noone likes it when he's actually plugged into the lineup where he's most likely to be.

HarryChappas
08-13-2011, 11:11 PM
Maybe trading CQ and danks gets us a starting OF, a 3b prospect and money to re-sign Burls. ?

Lip Man 1
08-13-2011, 11:31 PM
Balke:

It's not Dayan per say, just that he's "surrounded" with such impressive talent as Rios and DeAza.

But that may be the reality of things next year if JR lowers the boom on the payroll and perhaps fires the field manager / coaches / G.M. or any combination.

Lip

Noneck
08-13-2011, 11:48 PM
I love the way some think that Quentin and Viciedo are a wash, both defensively and offensively. The kid has a ton to prove to live up to the current RFer.

Nellie_Fox
08-13-2011, 11:49 PM
I hope not.

This was what I was afraid of when the Sox signed Dunn. Quentin is a better hitter than Dunn, a better fielder than Dunn and has more quality years ahead of him. And I don't think Viciedo will be the hitter Quentin is. If the Sox have to trade Quentin because of an idiotic signing of a roster black hole sucking up available payroll, I would find it most distressing.My feelings exactly. I think fans are WAY overestimating Viciedo, but then fans always seem to think that the guy who isn't here is going to be the answer. The big knock on Quentin by WSI posters has been inability to stay healthy. Well, he's stayed healthy. And he's produced. Quentin has been just okay in right. I fear that Viciedo will be a horror show in right.

Foulke You
08-14-2011, 12:46 AM
It is possible that Kenny might look to a budget stop-gap free agent that he can nab on the cheap for the leadoff spot. David DeJesus or Coco Crisp both come to mind and both are free agents. Overall, the free agent class for outfielders next season is pretty thin.

voodoochile
08-14-2011, 12:57 AM
My god I hope not...

I seem em trading Danks before TCQ.

voodoochile
08-14-2011, 12:59 AM
I love how everyone declares Viciedo to be the saviour but noone likes it when he's actually plugged into the lineup where he's most likely to be.

Plug him into left, move TCM to leadoff and leave the rest alone unless they can actually move Dunn... :rolling:

PalehosePlanet
08-14-2011, 02:49 AM
Plug him into left, move TCM to leadoff and leave the rest alone unless they can actually move Dunn... :rolling:

Exactly, or even Rios could lead-off. Q stays, with Viciedo and Rios in the OF and De Aza could very possibly be the fourth OF'er and defensive replacement for Viciedo. He could bat lead-off perhaps on the days he starts.

Hopefully Ozzie is gone and we'll no longer need the obligatory slap hitting, speedy lead-off hitter and, therefore, won't pay too much in a trade to acquire one. The Royals are using Alex Gordon to lead-off and are doing pretty good offensively, and he's not the prototypical speed guy. Baltimore has JJ Hardy leading off and he has zero stolen bases. We should put the best players we have at each position and not worry about who leads off.

LITTLE NELL
08-14-2011, 06:25 AM
My outfield next year would be TCQ in LF, DeAza in CF and the Tank in RF with Lilibridge the #4 outfielder. I would then platoon Rios and Dunn at DH. I know thats a lot of $$$ at DH but what are you going to do with these sorry specimens of a ballplayer.

doublem23
08-14-2011, 06:39 AM
De Aza sucks, he's a nice little 4th OF who can do some things, but a lot like Lillibridge, there's a reason he hasn't been able to establish himself as a starter in the Majors despite being in his late 20s. Alexei is clearly the best lead-off choice for next season except he isn't the slap-hitter, no-power prototype that our manager favors, so we'll see how that happens but from the talent jigsaw puzzle, you could realistically set your lineup like this for 2012 (assuming guys play to their talent level)...


Ramirez, SS
Pierzynski, C
Konerko, 1B
Dunn, DH
Quentin, LF
Viciedo, RF
Rios, CF
Beckham, 2B
Morel, 3B

Bench - Flowers, Lillibridge, De Aza...

Only problem is that is a pretty RH-heavy lineup, but what can you do? I doubt the Sox will be able to move Dunn this off-season, Rios is possible, I guess, if they're willing to eat some of that deal, but I don't know who you replace him with because I'd really not like to live in a world where my favorite team is starting Alejandro De Aza 100+ times per season

hawkjt
08-14-2011, 07:02 AM
Exactly, or even Rios could lead-off. Q stays, with Viciedo and Rios in the OF and De Aza could very possibly be the fourth OF'er and defensive replacement for Viciedo. He could bat lead-off perhaps on the days he starts.

Hopefully Ozzie is gone and we'll no longer need the obligatory slap hitting, speedy lead-off hitter and, therefore, won't pay too much in a trade to acquire one. The Royals are using Alex Gordon to lead-off and are doing pretty good offensively, and he's not the prototypical speed guy. Baltimore has JJ Hardy leading off and he has zero stolen bases. We should put the best players we have at each position and not worry about who leads off.


Gordon is 5th in the league in hits. Pierre is 11th in the league in hits.
Gordon is very talented,and a talented hitter can hit in any spot.
Pierre is also talented(hitting over.350 the last 40 games) and is doing a good job leading off for the Sox.
Fans love to hammer on Juan,but he will be missed next year,simply because this team lacks guys who can get hits,and he leads the team in hits. KC has 4 guys in the top 20 in the league in hits. Sox have Juan and PK in the top 25. Sox hit .251 as a team,8th in the league. Juan is hitting .283. He also leads the team in hitting with RISP and with two outs and RISP. If we need a clutch two out hit right now...it is Juan or PK for me. And that catch he made last nite at the wall? Good luck hoping that Viciedo or Carlos get to that ball..speed helps.

WSox597
08-14-2011, 08:18 AM
I'd be fine with Juan Pierre staying on. He has shown desire and heart, and he looks like he wants to be playing.

Unlike, say, Rios, who has mostly been sleepwalking through the season. He's had some hits lately, but the season has mostly been lousy for him.

Pierre is doing quite well now. Leave him there. Now, if he wants a HUGE contract, see ya!

We have a couple of them, and they're not working out so well.

TomBradley72
08-14-2011, 08:25 AM
I don't see how Pierre returns in 2012- he has hit well this year- but he has very clearly lost a step as far as speed goes- and I'd expect that to get even worse another year later. That makes him a "one tool" player (hit) but he can't hit for power, throw, run or field.

De Aza is at best a 4th/5th OF.

I would expect Quentin/Rios/Viciedo as the Opening Day outfield.

tick53
08-14-2011, 08:29 AM
It would be a shame if Quentin had to go to cover the costs, partially, of Rios' and Dunn's soul-stealing, franchise-destroying contracts.

It will happen. Guaranteed. De Aza is nothing more than a career minor leaguer who the organization has fallen in love with anyway. Another version of Duane Wise or Wille Harris. Mediocre players who take up spots on the Sox roster while good prospects either get traded away or die in the minors, never realizing their full potential. Right now, Carlos Quentin is one of the few players I want to see at the plate so let's naturally get rid of him. If they think attendance is bad this year.............

Zisk77
08-14-2011, 08:47 AM
The answer would be if we could just get rid of Dunn or Rios.

Sign Coco Crisp CF
Viciedo Rf
TCQ LF or DH

Somebody plz put a waiver claim on one of those two.:tongue:

I think instead of trading TCQ maybe we could cut salary by:

Not signing Pierre - very likely.
Trading Floyd to fill holes or get prospects maybe include Rios and still eat half the salary. Gavin, Alex, & 18 mil for Dexeter Fowler and prospect and don't sign crisp. Work magic here KW. Hey angels if you like Vernon Wells you'll love Alex Rios...maybe not.:angry:
Adding Sale/Stewert to rotation. Santiago to pen?
Signing Beurhle to a reasonable deal (c'mon chairman you know u luv him).
Pick up Frasor's Option.
Vizquel gone in favor of the beast and De Aza as bench players.

balke
08-14-2011, 09:12 AM
Ramirez, SS
Pierzynski, C
Konerko, 1B
Dunn, DH
Quentin, LF
Viciedo, RF
Rios, CF
Beckham, 2B
Morel, 3B

Wow that's just depressing. Even if those guys played to potential this team would lead the world in GIDP playing station to station HR or nothing baseball.

KMcMahon817
08-14-2011, 11:33 AM
Not a huge fan of that outfield. The SOX should only trade Quentin if someone wants to give them a major league ready outfield prospect with several tools and a nice pitching prospect. I don't see that happening, so just keep TCQ for his last arb year.

KMcMahon817
08-14-2011, 11:40 AM
I don't see how Pierre returns in 2012- he has hit well this year- but he has very clearly lost a step as far as speed goes- and I'd expect that to get even worse another year later. That makes him a "one tool" player (hit) but he can't hit for power, throw, run or field.

De Aza is at best a 4th/5th OF.

I would expect Quentin/Rios/Viciedo as the Opening Day outfield.

Remember just a short month or so ago you "guaranteed" me that Pierre's career was over after his current contract was up? That wager isn't looking too good nowadays. :cool:

TheOldRoman
08-14-2011, 11:59 AM
De Aza sucks, he's a nice little 4th OF who can do some things, but a lot like Lillibridge, there's a reason he hasn't been able to establish himself as a starter in the Majors despite being in his late 20s. Alexei is clearly the best lead-off choice for next season except he isn't the slap-hitter, no-power prototype that our manager favors, so we'll see how that happens but from the talent jigsaw puzzle, you could realistically set your lineup like this for 2012 (assuming guys play to their talent level)...
Yes, primarily bad luck. The Marlins (who are pretty good at talent evaluation) had pegged him as their CF of the future. He was set to take over the job before he suffered a bad injury. While he was gone, he got Wally Pipp'd. Soon the Marlins' outfield was so loaded with young talent that they had no room for De Aza. I am not saying he is going to be a superstar if he gets playing time, but there is a very good chance he would develop into a solid starter if he was given the job.

SI1020
08-14-2011, 12:39 PM
Very slim chance that De Aza is anything but a spare outfielder. If you're depending on the De Aza's of the baseball world to be a foundation for the future expect a lot of lean years.

doublem23
08-14-2011, 12:48 PM
[/LIST]
Wow that's just depressing. Even if those guys played to potential this team would lead the world in GIDP playing station to station HR or nothing baseball.

If Humber and Stewart can be molded into actual MLB pitchers then we will still have a very, very good pitching staff so it's not like we'd need a world-beater offense. Considering that we have two black holes on this team I actually like the make-up of this offense, assuming AJ can extend his rebirth at the plate for an extra year.

Anyways, I doubt GIDP would be that big of a problem, that's 8/9 starters we use regularly in 2011 and the Sox, at 97 GIDP, are higher than the league average, but not alarmingly so.

balke
08-14-2011, 01:05 PM
If Humber and Stewart can be molded into actual MLB pitchers then we will still have a very, very good pitching staff so it's not like we'd need a world-beater offense. Considering that we have two black holes on this team I actually like the make-up of this offense, assuming AJ can extend his rebirth at the plate for an extra year.

Anyways, I doubt GIDP would be that big of a problem, that's 8/9 starters we use regularly in 2011 and the Sox, at 97 GIDP, are higher than the league average, but not alarmingly so.


Well one good thing helping that stat is Dunn doesn't even make contact and hits behind PK the majority of the season.

Just look at that stack. AJ in front of PK? Every pitch would be thrown with the intent to induce a ground ball.

Defense and pitching is what Kenny said the Sox need. Ozzie says he wants speedy guys who play tough and can bunt to get on base if need be.

If those 2 philosophies bring this lineup to 2012 - just fire Kenny immediately.

I think Coco Crisp will probably be what happens - as Kenny is just dying to get his boy again I'm sure. I'm sure he'll be on the DL the majority of the season as well.

doublem23
08-14-2011, 01:10 PM
Christ, I don't care, then bat Beckham 2nd. FWIW, I am hoping next season there will be a new manager round these parts that will actually find a way to get these guys jacked up to play.

balke
08-14-2011, 01:15 PM
Christ, I don't care, then bat Beckham 2nd. FWIW, I am hoping next season there will be a new manager round these parts that will actually find a way to get these guys jacked up to play.


The organization can do whatever they want to anyone in charge. Dunn and Rios will still be here though - and that is pretty much all that matters. They will live or die based on how the offseason goes for the both of them.

I think Viciedo either hits so well in September he gets Quentin traded this offseason - or he will be cycling in as a 4th outfielder/DH until they figure out what they've got for half of next year. They can't trot out that bad of an outfield and lose their leadoff man on Viciedo's potential alone.

Tragg
08-14-2011, 01:39 PM
Gordon is 5th in the league in hits. Pierre is 11th in the league in hits.
Gordon is very talented,and a talented hitter can hit in any spot.
Pierre is also talented(hitting over.350 the last 40 games) and is doing a good job leading off for the Sox.
That's what we need for leadoff - a quality hitter.
Pierre is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. He looks good compared to most other hitters on this team, but his obp his .340 (okay) but he can't steal much anymore and he has zero power. At least KW hasn't used many resources acquiring the slappers for Ozzie, but it would be nice to have just a good baseball player and hitter batting in that spot.

balke
08-14-2011, 01:44 PM
That's what we need for leadoff - a quality hitter.
Pierre is barely passable for a leadoff hitter. He looks good compared to most other hitters on this team, but his obp his .340 (okay) but he can't steal much anymore and he has zero power. At least KW hasn't used many resources acquiring the slappers for Ozzie, but it would be nice to have just a good baseball player and hitter batting in that spot.


Too bad Kenny's idea of a good hitter right now is a guy like Adam Dunn.

Pierre is okay. I would agree without the base stealing he's probably not worth another shot. I don't think it's easy to be a leadoff hitter though. Can't just plug a .280 hitter in there and think he's going to hit .280.

I think the production from Pierre as a hitter has been very valuable as well - since this team has a serious deficiency of actual hits. OBP doesn't mean anything if the other guys aren't driving you in.

voodoochile
08-14-2011, 02:02 PM
Too bad Kenny's idea of a good hitter right now is a guy like Adam Dunn.

Pierre is okay. I would agree without the base stealing he's probably not worth another shot. I don't think it's easy to be a leadoff hitter though. Can't just plug a .280 hitter in there and think he's going to hit .280.

I think the production from Pierre as a hitter has been very valuable as well - since this team has a serious deficiency of actual hits. OBP doesn't mean anything if the other guys aren't driving you in.

Kenny builds teams not concepts. He doesn't look at a guy like Dunn and Pierre and say, "one is a better hitter than the other" he says, "one is a better leadoff hitter than the other and one is a better middle order bat than the other."

The issue here isn't that one is better than the other it's that they play different roles and in those roles do well (or have coming into this season in the case of Dunn). The other issue is that casual fans think all players can be evaluated in the same manner. I blame some of this on fantasy sports where you could lead off with Paulie and be just fine. In that world all hitters are equal. In the real game that's not true.

balke
08-14-2011, 02:20 PM
Kenny builds teams not concepts. He doesn't look at a guy like Dunn and Pierre and say, "one is a better hitter than the other" he says, "one is a better leadoff hitter than the other and one is a better middle order bat than the other."

The issue here isn't that one is better than the other it's that they play different roles and in those roles do well (or have coming into this season in the case of Dunn). The other issue is that casual fans think all players can be evaluated in the same manner. I blame some of this on fantasy sports where you could lead off with Paulie and be just fine. In that world all hitters are equal. In the real game that's not true.

:thumbsup: There's such a weird balance for next season. De Aza may be the best bet to start since he'll be cheap. I think Viciedo/Rios/TCQ is a really poor outfield. I think they could put that out there on occasion though.

It doesn't cost anything to start with Viciedo on the bench. You could easily platoon DH and 1B and OF for Dunn/Quentin/Viceido/PK and see who's going to produce more for the team. I think the starting outfield is going to have to include a defensively sound or speedy leadoff hitter though.

Whether that's De Aza/Pierre/Crisp or Lilli on occasion. With PK being your best player - it'll be important to have some guys on base for him to knock in. Plus, the pitching will need help on defense to come back as strong as it has this year.

Tragg
08-14-2011, 02:21 PM
The issue here isn't that one is better than the other it's that they play different roles and in those roles do well (or have coming into this season in the case of Dunn). The other issue is that casual fans think all players can be evaluated in the same manner. I blame some of this on fantasy sports where you could lead off with Paulie and be just fine. In that world all hitters are equal. In the real game that's not true.

But nor do you need a speedy guy with no power leading off. You can find the slappers pretty cheap, we don't have enough talent in our organization to put a good hitter at leadoff, and our manager insists on those guys (and if you don't give him one, he'll force the issue, e.g. Wise), so we have them.

PalehosePlanet
08-14-2011, 06:20 PM
But nor do you need a speedy guy with no power leading off. You can find the slappers pretty cheap, we don't have enough talent in our organization to put a good hitter at leadoff, and our manager insists on those guys (and if you don't give him one, he'll force the issue, e.g. Wise), so we have them.

This is spot on and exactly the way I feel.

In 2008 Ozzie was ready to start Wise over Quentin -- a much better player -- simply because he fit the bill of what he believes a lead-off hitter is: a guy with speed and capable of stealing bases.

I guess I'm in the minority here because my feeling is that lead-off-hitter is not a position. Put your 8 best players out there and one of the hitters will bat 1st in the order.

WhiteSox5187
08-14-2011, 06:29 PM
This is spot on and exactly the way I feel.

In 2008 Ozzie was ready to start Wise over Quentin -- a much better player -- simply because he fit the bill of what he believes a lead-off hitter is: a guy with speed and capable of stealing bases.

I guess I'm in the minority here because my feeling is that lead-off-hitter is not a position. Put your 8 best players out there and one of the hitters will bat 1st in the order.

It was Jerry Owens and this was after that Kenny had declared that in Jerry Owens the Sox had found their leadoff hitter for the future. But the fact remains that Ozzie DIDN'T start Owens over Quentin.

PalehosePlanet
08-14-2011, 06:58 PM
It was Jerry Owens and this was after that Kenny had declared that in Jerry Owens the Sox had found their leadoff hitter for the future. But the fact remains that Ozzie DIDN'T start Owens over Quentin.

Pardon me, Owens. And the ONLY reason Ozzie didn't start Owens over Quentin was because Owens went on the DL.

Lip Man 1
08-14-2011, 08:02 PM
Voodoo:

I disagree somewhat with your statement that "Kenny builds teams not concepts..."

In 2007 for example Kenny's concept for the bullpen was (paraphrasing) "hard throwers" (I would add that the players he got had little or no track record of success at the major or minor league level but I digress...)

That was a specific plan that off season, he tailored his deals around that. It blew up in his face.

I agree that I don't think he has tried a concept approach like that since then but he did try it...once.

Lip

Daver
08-14-2011, 08:43 PM
Voodoo:

I disagree somewhat with your statement that "Kenny builds teams not concepts..."

In 2007 for example Kenny's concept for the bullpen was (paraphrasing) "hard throwers" (I would add that the players he got had little or no track record of success at the major or minor league level but I digress...)

That was a specific plan that off season, he tailored his deals around that. It blew up in his face.

I agree that I don't think he has tried a concept approach like that since then but he did try it...once.

Lip

He had a concept for starting pitching in 2005 that included a couple of failed Yankee starters, a young pitcher that the previous manager had no confidence in, and a guy related to the manager, Kenny gambled, and collected on it.

The whole idea of a concept is a joke, the GM's job is to get the best players available with the budget he has, based on recommendations from the scouts and the coaching staff.

soxfanreggie
08-14-2011, 08:55 PM
If Pierre will come back on the cheap ($1M or $2M just to keep playing?) and we don't have any other option to leadoff, I'd consider Pierre. However, we'd have to find a place to put him...and that means benching Rios or not having Dayan up. We're likely going to have to "go cheap" somewhere I'm afraid, and that could mean not re-signing Burls or trading someone like TCQ.

My top three priorities for the future: leadoff hitter, 3B, and a catcher. I don't see AJ lasting past 2012, except for a one year deal if he still has his stuff together. If we can knock out leadoff and 3B in the same person, great!

I think I might just have to say a prayer that Rios or Dunn (would be nothing short of a miracle right now if they both did) has a decent season next year. Even if it means them hitting .250, I'd take it over this garbage.

doublem23
08-14-2011, 09:01 PM
It was Jerry Owens and this was after that Kenny had declared that in Jerry Owens the Sox had found their leadoff hitter for the future. But the fact remains that Ozzie DIDN'T start Owens over Quentin.

Because Owens thankfully got hurt about a week before the season started and then Carlos thankfully played too well to be benched

TomBradley72
08-14-2011, 09:08 PM
Remember just a short month or so ago you "guaranteed" me that Pierre's career was over after his current contract was up? That wager isn't looking too good nowadays. :cool:

I'm still "All In" on our wager.

Juan isn't good enough to be a starter next year- but he's too limited to be valuable as a back up (can only play LF, not really fast enough to be a great pinch runner)

TDog
08-14-2011, 09:26 PM
Yes, primarily bad luck. The Marlins (who are pretty good at talent evaluation) had pegged him as their CF of the future. He was set to take over the job before he suffered a bad injury. While he was gone, he got Wally Pipp'd. Soon the Marlins' outfield was so loaded with young talent that they had no room for De Aza. I am not saying he is going to be a superstar if he gets playing time, but there is a very good chance he would develop into a solid starter if he was given the job.


And, ironically enough, the Marlins had Dewayne Wise playing centerfield in the ninth inning Friday night. He made a game-saving diving catch of a drive off the bat of Cody Ross that looked off the bat as it if was going to score the baserunner to tie the game. One out later, the Marlins won the game 2-1.

gosox41
08-14-2011, 10:04 PM
Balke:

It's not Dayan per say, just that he's "surrounded" with such impressive talent as Rios and DeAza.

But that may be the reality of things next year if JR lowers the boom on the payroll and perhaps fires the field manager / coaches / G.M. or any combination.

Lip


I don't want to look like a Rios lover, but I'm willing to bet Rios has a better season next year. More of a reversion to his career numbers. Viciedo is no TCQ, but he should provide some pop, hopefully better D, and more health.

Most were knocking Pierre here earlier this season and how bad he was. Will De Aza be much worse. I'm willing to bet he is better since he has more power then Pierre.

I'm certainly not saying I want TCQ traded, but I'm not as down as others on the alternatives.


Bob

TDog
08-14-2011, 10:17 PM
... Viciedo is no TCQ, but he should provide some pop, hopefully better D, and more health. ...

Are you suggesting Viciedo would provide better rightfield defense than Quentin has this season? Are there people out there that believe this is possible?

I also understand that Viciedo has missed more games due to nagging injuries this season than Quentin has.

I can remember pre-2003, a weekend afternoon in the bleachers, listening to a fan tell me about how the Sox needed to bring up Joe Borchard. The minor leaguer the team won't bring up often is the one that has all the answers.

shes
08-15-2011, 08:26 AM
Imagine if we lose TCQ and Burls because of the money allocated to Dunn and Rios. :o:

I won't say I'll stop watching, because that simply won't happen, but I'll do so with a wee bit of hate in my heart.

Carolina Kenny
08-15-2011, 09:04 AM
Yin Yang.

All In. All Out.

2011 All In

2012 All Out.

See ya in 2013.

aryzner
08-15-2011, 09:07 AM
I do not want to see Quentin gone next season. I hope we can retain him.

russ99
08-15-2011, 09:09 AM
It would be a shame if we let Quentin go. We need more of his competiveness, not less.

I think it's obvious that we need to keep Quentin and dump one of Rios/Dunn.

Quentin should be the DH next year with Tank going to RF.

Leadoff/LF is up in the air.

I could see the Sox settle with DeAza (who's not really a prototypical leadoff hitter) to cut payroll, but I'm hoping for a better option, especially if they can cut one of the deadweights.

SI1020
08-15-2011, 09:21 AM
I think it's obvious that we need to keep Quentin and dump one of Rios/Dunn.

Quentin should be the DH next year with Tank going to RF.

Leadoff/LF is up in the air.

I could see the Sox settle with DeAza (who's not really a prototypical leadoff hitter) to cut payroll, but I'm hoping for a better option, especially if they can cut one of the deadweights. The reverse would be much better.

doublem23
08-15-2011, 09:40 AM
The reverse would be much better.

Maybe, but I really find it hard to believe Viciedo could be any worse than Carlos in the OF

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm still "All In" on our wager.

Juan isn't good enough to be a starter next year- but he's too limited to be valuable as a back up (can only play LF, not really fast enough to be a great pinch runner)

Congratulations on standing behind your wager, but Juan will easily find a major league job next season. His last 40 games proved he is still a VERY capable major league lead-off hitter. You may not like him, or his style of play, but to say otherwise is kind of silly.

voodoochile
08-15-2011, 11:19 AM
Maybe, but I really find it hard to believe Viciedo could be any worse than Carlos in the OF
:scratch:

Carlos hasn't been that horrible in RF this year. He had a few bad games but in general he's made all the plays he's supposed to make and seems to becoming more and more comfortable and stable as the season progresses.

What am I missing here?

asindc
08-15-2011, 11:32 AM
:scratch:

Carlos hasn't been that horrible in RF this year. He had a few bad games but in general he's made all the plays he's supposed to make and seems to becoming more and more comfortable and stable as the season progresses.

What am I missing here?

You're missing the fact that he is not Roberto Clemente.

doublem23
08-15-2011, 11:57 AM
You're missing the fact that he is not Roberto Clemente.

:rolleyes:

Give me a ****ing break. Carlos isn't a good defensive OF. I'm sorry you cannot accept this revelation. He's a corner OF so it's not that big of a deal, but he's not all that good.

mzh
08-15-2011, 12:04 PM
:rolleyes:

Give me a ****ing break. Carlos isn't a good defensive OF. I'm sorry you cannot accept this revelation. He's a corner OF so it's not that big of a deal, but he's not all that good.
I don't want to get into the defensive stats debate, but neither the stats or my opinion tell me that he is anything but an average to slightly above average right fielder. Last year I think he was still being hankered by the nagging foot injuries, but nothing has told me this year that he is a below average defender compared to the other right fielders in the league.

SI1020
08-15-2011, 12:12 PM
:scratch:

Carlos hasn't been that horrible in RF this year. He had a few bad games but in general he's made all the plays he's supposed to make and seems to becoming more and more comfortable and stable as the season progresses.

What am I missing here? I agree. No he's not a GG but his defense has greatly improved this year.

asindc
08-15-2011, 12:16 PM
:rolleyes:

Give me a ****ing break. Carlos isn't a good defensive OF. I'm sorry you cannot accept this revelation. He's a corner OF so it's not that big of a deal, but he's not all that good.

No need for an apology. I can accept it fine because of the bolded part of your statement, just as the majority of MLB teams do. Now when it comes to assuming that Viciedo can play better OF than Quentin, I'll have to wait and see Viceido actually play the OF for a significant number of games before reaching that conclusion. Thus, no break given in this instance.

asindc
08-15-2011, 12:16 PM
I don't want to get into the defensive stats debate, but neither the stats or my opinion tell me that he is anything but an average to slightly above average right fielder. Last year I think he was still being hankered by the nagging foot injuries, but nothing has told me this year that he is a below average defender compared to the other right fielders in the league.

Another reason no break is being given.

doublem23
08-15-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't want to get into the defensive stats debate, but neither the stats or my opinion tell me that he is anything but an average to slightly above average right fielder. Last year I think he was still being hankered by the nagging foot injuries, but nothing has told me this year that he is a below average defender compared to the other right fielders in the league.

See the problem with OF defensive stats is that they basically only cover one thing: Range. Most defensive stats will tell you Konerko is a bad defender because he doesn't cover as much ground as an average 1B, but they fail to take into account the most important aspect of playing 1B - saving your IF errors by scooping balls out of the dirt. Its the same with RF and LF... Not as big of a deal if they can cover a lot of territory (especially at the Cell which has an incredibly small OF), what's more important is arm strength and accuracy.

Again, it's a corner OF spot so it's not a big deal, but I still am going to have to say I doubt a much more athletic 22-year-old with a cannon can be any worse than TCQ in RF. Move him over to LF and you take advantage of his best attribute, a good arm, while removing a lot of his worst, limited accuracy.

ghostface36
08-15-2011, 12:39 PM
do you guys really think adam dunn's career is completely finished due to one extreme outlier year?

KMcMahon817
08-15-2011, 12:48 PM
do you guys really think adam dunn's career is completely finished due to one extreme outlier year?

I don't think his career is done. I think his 2011 is done. I don't see him breaking out of this slump anytime soon. I also don't think moving him to the bench against all LHP, pinch hitting for him against LH relievers, and letting him start against most, not all, RHP would "ruin" the rest of his career. That logic seems to get thrown around here a lot, and really, it makes no sense to me. The SOX are in this thing, as unbelievable as that may be. Adam Dunn starting at DH against lefties gives the team a very poor chance of chasing down the Tigers and Tribe.

The guy needs to work hard this off-season, get in better shape, and actually work at hitting a baseball. I think he'll be fine next year...200 Ks, .230 average, 30 HRs, and 80-90 RBI.

voodoochile
08-15-2011, 01:06 PM
:rolleyes:

Give me a ****ing break. Carlos isn't a good defensive OF. I'm sorry you cannot accept this revelation. He's a corner OF so it's not that big of a deal, but he's not all that good.

Which is a far cry from what you said in your first post where you said you didn't see how a guy who has been widely reviled for his defensive ability couldn't be worse.

I'll take an average or even slightly above average RF with a good stick over a complete question mark every time...

voodoochile
08-15-2011, 01:11 PM
See the problem with OF defensive stats is that they basically only cover one thing: Range. Most defensive stats will tell you Konerko is a bad defender because he doesn't cover as much ground as an average 1B, but they fail to take into account the most important aspect of playing 1B - saving your IF errors by scooping balls out of the dirt. Its the same with RF and LF... Not as big of a deal if they can cover a lot of territory (especially at the Cell which has an incredibly small OF), what's more important is arm strength and accuracy.

Again, it's a corner OF spot so it's not a big deal, but I still am going to have to say I doubt a much more athletic 22-year-old with a cannon can be any worse than TCQ in RF. Move him over to LF and you take advantage of his best attribute, a good arm, while removing a lot of his worst, limited accuracy.

I completely disagree.

The number one thing an outfielder does is catch flyballs. A guy who gets to more flyballs is worth WAY more than a guy who gets to less but has a better arm.

Making the catch IS outfield defense. EVERYTHING else is secondary and WAY down the list.

I'd put the split at 90% getting to and catching baseballs and 10% arm as the amount of importance I put on the two aspects of the game. It reminds me of when posters use to rail about Frank's arm strength and accuracy at 1B as being a reason he sucked defensively. Like talking about the arm strength of a first baseman actually meant something...:rolleyes:

Edit: Oh and I don't have a problem with Viciedo playing in the OF next year. I expect it to happen actually, but leave TCQ alone he's finally healthy and stable and it's showing in his offensive stats this season. Viciedo can play LF.

Daver
08-15-2011, 03:32 PM
Not as big of a deal if they can cover a lot of territory (especially at the Cell which has an incredibly small OF), what's more important is arm strength and accuracy.


This is not even close to being true, as speed does NOT equal range, and the arm only comes into play after you catch the ball, and then you have to know where to throw it.

russ99
08-15-2011, 05:16 PM
Maybe, but I really find it hard to believe Viciedo could be any worse than Carlos in the OF

And if Dunn can't handle the mental struggle at DH, I sure don't want a rookie there.

Carlos can (likely) handle it, and he should play more games (less chance of injury) if not in the field.

I also think an NL team may take a flyer on Dunn before we'd be able to find a taker on Rios.

TomBradley72
08-15-2011, 09:32 PM
Congratulations on standing behind your wager, but Juan will easily find a major league job next season. His last 40 games proved he is still a VERY capable major league lead-off hitter. You may not like him, or his style of play, but to say otherwise is kind of silly.

I like him. I like his style of play.

But 20/33 in stolen bases along with my eyes observing him clearly slowing down on the base paths- and I just don't see him as a starting outfielder in 2012. So is he valuable as a bench player? I don't think most teams want to use a roster spot on a player who can only play LF.

He's a great guy who plays the game right- so I hope I'm wrong.

gosox41
08-15-2011, 09:37 PM
And if Dunn can't handle the mental struggle at DH, I sure don't want a rookie there.

Carlos can (likely) handle it, and he should play more games (less chance of injury) if not in the field.

I also think an NL team may take a flyer on Dunn before we'd be able to find a taker on Rios.


I think we're stuck with both until 1 of three things happen:

1. Rios or Dunn show signs of improving and a team wants to trade for them because they add value.
2. We take on another teams problem (aka Crazy Z.)
3. We pay at least 80% of their remaining salary.


Bob

HarryChappas
08-15-2011, 10:56 PM
do you guys really think adam dunn's career is completely finished due to one extreme outlier year?

YES. YES. and YES!!!! Worst single year performance in WS History PERIOD! Hope he retires.

NLaloosh
08-16-2011, 03:11 PM
Whether the Sox rebuild (doubtful) or not I don't think there is little chance that De Aza is the leadoff guy.

I don't think that either Ozzie or Pierre will be back next year. I predict that the Sox will trade Floyd or Danks for a CFer that can lead off.

Mohoney
08-17-2011, 01:28 AM
So there is no way that next year's outfield is Viciedo LF, Rios CF, Quentin RF? Are Viciedo and Quentin mutually exclusive?