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nsolo
08-05-2011, 11:32 AM
Because of long summertime hours and family life, I don't post often during the baseball season, but now I'm inclined to do so.

Yesterday, I heard on The Score, that White Sox fans who want Walker fired are nothing but meatballs. From what I could gather, those who want to see change due to the teams poor performance know nothing about the ins and outs of baseball and because of this are mere meatball fans who, out of frustration, want to see heads roll.

I don't get it. As a foreman at my blue collar job, I'm held responsible for the performance of my team of employees. In some cases, they may not be the the best choice for the job, but I wasn't responsible for their hiring. Still, their performance is a direct reflections on my ability to lead them. If they screw up, they themselves and myself and held responsible. My team has a job to to, and if it isn't accomplished, the buck stops with me.

This seems contrary to what I see with the present White Sox team. Given the high expectations going into the season, it would seem that by now, someone would have been held responsible. If I were to point a finger, it would be at the very least, Greg Walker. For over six years the team has had a poor offensive showing, and he seems to the the only constant. Players have come and gone, but on offense, we still suck.

So, since I hold this opinion, why am I a meathead? Is it because I really am a dummy when it comes to inside baseball, or is it because I have the nerve to call a spade a spade while pointing my finger at what I see as the obvious fault?

Jerko
08-05-2011, 11:43 AM
Because of long summertime hours and family life, I don't post often during the baseball season, but now I'm inclined to do so.

Yesterday, I heard on The Score, that White Sox fans who want Walker fired are nothing but meatballs. From what I could gather, those who want to see change due to the teams poor performance know nothing about the ins and outs of baseball and because of this are mere meatball fans who, out of frustration, want to see heads roll.

I don't get it. As a foreman at my blue collar job, I'm held responsible for the performance of my team of employees. In some cases, they may not be the the best choice for the job, but I wasn't responsible for their hiring. Still, their performance is a direct reflections on my ability to lead them. If they screw up, they themselves and myself and held responsible. My team has a job to to, and if it isn't accomplished, the buck stops with me.

This seems contrary to what I see with the present White Sox team. Given the high expectations going into the season, it would seem that by now, someone would have been held responsible. If I were to point a finger, it would be at the very least, Greg Walker. For over six years the team has had a poor offensive showing, and he seems to the the only constant. Players have come and gone, but on offense, we still suck.

So, since I hold this opinion, why am I a meathead? Is it because I really am a dummy when it comes to inside baseball, or is it because I have the nerve to call a spade a spade while pointing my finger at what I see as the obvious fault?

We are meatballs for thinking that way because

a) hitting coaches can't really do anything because these guys should know how to hit by now because they are in the major leagues, and

b) the major leagues is not the level to teach.

Let me guess. Postgame show? It can't be Ozzie, he already called us idiots and geniuses. :rolleyes:

nsolo
08-05-2011, 11:47 AM
I heard in while driving into work. Yesterday or today? Not sure when its 4:30 in the morning.

AnkleSox
08-05-2011, 11:48 AM
I'll step up the "meatball" attitude another notch. I say fire the clowns that are defending the other clowns in this joke of an organization. Now the radio guys are pointing the finger at the fans? Well **** them right back. The only person I care to see stay in this organization is Steve Stone. Everyone else can be sent away and I won't shed a tear.

This team really could have done a lot to better itself after the ecstasy of 2005. Instead they've gone the opposite direction and continue to put a sub-par team on the field and alienate a fanbase that doesn't deserve such ****. The 2011 White Sox and management have made me lose interest in my favorite sport and summer hobby, and that makes me both sad and angry.

doublem23
08-05-2011, 11:50 AM
Sports to real world job comparison don't really work

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 11:57 AM
Sports to real world job comparison don't really workNot when is comes to players, no. The huge salaries and the fact that they're garaunteed in all but football don't allow for comparisons. However, you absolutely can compare coaching to managing at any other job. If the people under you **** up, and they do so because they were following your philosophy, you get fired. If an individual worker is grossly negligent, he/she is fired. However, if an entire crew underperforms, they look at their supervisors as the reason for the poor performance. But as we know, Greg Walker was appointed for life, like a Supreme Court justice. It would take a constitutional amendment to fire Greg Walker.

Soxman219
08-05-2011, 11:59 AM
B&B flip-flop all the time so don't worry about them. No you are not a meatball for wanting change. All White Sox fans want is a consistent winner. I'm not saying World Series every year, but make aware that the Sox are in contention every year. Is that too much to ask? Fans don't like being blamed for the team's failures when the management keeps screwing up. Can you blame fans for getting angry at a team that was suppose to contend this year? The Sox have a GM in Kenny who is stubborn as a mule and destroyed the minor league farm system, a manager in Ozzie who manages an AL team like an NL team, a hitting coach in Walker who has no idea about situational hitting, players like Rios who just don't give a damn, and scouting coaches that have no idea what talent is. That's on management, not the fans; but Kenny and Ozzie will always lash out at fans when they are criticized This White Sox organization is so paper-thin skinned it's amazing.

Milw
08-05-2011, 12:02 PM
We are meatballs for thinking that way because

a) hitting coaches can't really do anything because these guys should know how to hit by now because they are in the major leagues, and

b) the major leagues is not the level to teach.

Let me guess. Postgame show? It can't be Ozzie, he already called us idiots and geniuses. :rolleyes:
I've never understood this logic. If the hitting coach is unable to make a difference, then why do we have one in the first place. In other words, Walker is either unnecessary or incompetent... in either case, he should be let go.

Fenway
08-05-2011, 12:09 PM
I've never understood this logic. If the hitting coach is unable to make a difference, then why do we have one in the first place. In other words, Walker is either unnecessary or incompetent... in either case, he should be let go.

Ask Frank how important his hitting coach was...

https://cdn2.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/7360ca38-04f6-47ce-933c-2cb1d7bcf5a5/be66592e-0079-4694-8ee2-12acbc994449/Image/161ae1ef73530b76ba537491f0531ef0/walt_hriniak.jpg

JC456
08-05-2011, 12:11 PM
What was sad, on Wednesday night the New York fans took over our stadium and that should never be allowed. I believe I heard Ozzie make a comment the other day that our fans or the other teams fans in the stadium he doesn't care as long as it is packed. That couldn't be more wrong. This is White Sox park, not Yankee stadium, Milller field or Wrigley field. Ozzie as the manager of the White Sox ought to want to hear his team's fans the loudest and the ones boasting about their team. Now you know the mentality of the manager of the White Sox. He doesn't care who sits in the seats! Thumbs down Ozzie!

SI1020
08-05-2011, 12:13 PM
Will it make them happy if some of us get tired of the insults and just go away? They really are doing their best to poison the well.

Milw
08-05-2011, 12:15 PM
Will it make them happy if some of us get tired of the insults and just go away? They really are doing their best to poison the well.
Yep. I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship.

I've heard Cubs fans use that analogy before, and there's some aptness to it there too. But the difference is, the Cubs organization doesn't go out of their way to smack around their fanbase; they're merely incompetent. Our organization, on the other hand, seems to take pleasure in insulting us around every turn.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 12:16 PM
Yep. I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship.

I've heard Cubs fans use that analogy before, and there's some aptness to it there too. But the difference is, the Cubs organization doesn't go out of their way to smack around their fanbase; they're merely incompetent. Our organization, on the other hand, seems to take pleasure in insulting us around every turn.Pssst... I think he was talking about the media, not the franchise.

doublem23
08-05-2011, 12:29 PM
Not when is comes to players, no. The huge salaries and the fact that they're garaunteed in all but football don't allow for comparisons. However, you absolutely can compare coaching to managing at any other job. If the people under you **** up, and they do so because they were following your philosophy, you get fired. If an individual worker is grossly negligent, he/she is fired. However, if an entire crew underperforms, they look at their supervisors as the reason for the poor performance. But as we know, Greg Walker was appointed for life, like a Supreme Court justice. It would take a constitutional amendment to fire Greg Walker.

Nah, it doesn't really work there, either

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 12:33 PM
Nah, it doesn't really work there, eitherAre you saying coaches and managers aren't usually fired to take a fall for teams performing poorly or managers in average jobs aren't fired if their workers perform poorly? I mean, a McDonald's manager isn't going to be fired because the 16 year-olds and seniors he manages don't do well, but in many other fields, managers are held accountable for the perfomance of their workers. At my current job, I have seen managers fired because they oversaw failed projects or because productivity in their department fell behind others. Hell, I worked at a restaurant in college and managers were routinely fired because we as servers didn't sell enough pie or appetizers.

doublem23
08-05-2011, 12:35 PM
Are you saying coaches and managers aren't usually fired to take a fall for teams performing poorly or managers in average jobs aren't fired if their workers perform poorly? I mean, a McDonald's manager isn't going to be fired because the 16 year-olds and seniors he manages don't do well, but in many other fields, managers are held accountable for the perfomance of their workers. Hell, I worked at a restaurant in college and managers were routinely fired because we as servers didn't sell enough pie or appetizers. At my current job, I have seen managers fired because they oversaw failed projects.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying it's a poor comparison.

FWIW, 5 years ago, Ozzie Guillen was the best person at his job in the entire world. I doubt he'd be worried about getting canned today if he worked in a normal work environment.

Milw
08-05-2011, 12:38 PM
Pssst... I think he was talking about the media, not the franchise.
Doesn't change the fact that I'm sick of constantly being told what a bad fan I am by Ozzie, Kenny, JR, Hawk, Farmer and Rongey, all for the heinous crime of demanding changes by the organization.

When we question Ozzie's lineup, we're told he "doesn't give a ****," and that we should just shut up, or something to that effect.

When we question the high price of tickets, we hear from Kenny and Jerry that we need to do our part to support the payroll by buying tickets--product on the field be damned.

If we dare suggest that Walker be fired, the broadcast teams tell us we don't know what we're talking about.

I for one am done with being told I don't know what I'm talking about. I demand some accountability for this debacle, god dammit.

JC456
08-05-2011, 12:53 PM
Well this is one fan that is Dunn spending his money at the Cell to watch a team that doesn't care about the fans. My wife and I are not returning as season ticket holders next year. This is year five of no offense with the same coaching staff. I'm not a mental midget and can see that this coaching staff is finished. When the players don't play that is on the coaching staff, that has been that way since sports have been around, when the manager loses the team, he/ she is Dunn. Ozzie is DONE! I liked Ozzie, but his players don't, I'd love to ask Nick Swisher. That guy was a flop and look at him since he went to NY! That ought to say it all. Oh, and where is Jim Thome?

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 12:57 PM
Well this is one fan that is Dunn spending his money at the Cell to watch a team that doesn't care about the fans. My wife and I are not returning as season ticket holders next year. This is year five of no offense with the same coaching staff. I'm not a mental midget and can see that this coaching staff is finished. When the players don't play that is on the coaching staff, that has been that way since sports have been around, when the manager loses the team, he/ she is Dunn. Ozzie is DONE! I liked Ozzie, but his players don't, I'd love to ask Nick Swisher. That guy was a flop and look at him since he went to NY! That ought to say it all. Oh, and where is Jim Thome?:shakehead:

jdm2662
08-05-2011, 01:08 PM
I've accussed many Bears fans of making meathead comments many times, and will continue to do so. However, I see none of that being made this season. It's bad enough when the teams sucks. It's even worse when the higher ups are complete assphats and the team has mailed it in. So, to answer your question, no. When you see the same crap, different year, why shouldn't you want things to change?

rockinrobin23
08-05-2011, 01:32 PM
i remember being a soxfest when kenny was asked about the trade for pods. He said i will never forget iam sick of only scoring runs every other day. i was like wow finally a change in thinking and then we won. Then what happens we got right back to the old way...we bring in this bashers and wait on the long ball again. We need to get back to old school basebal damn the homerun, lets manufacture are own runs again. just my two cents...

GoGoCrede
08-05-2011, 01:34 PM
I've accussed many Bears fans of making meathead comments many times, and will continue to do so. However, I see none of that being made this season. It's bad enough when the teams sucks. It's even worse when the higher ups are complete assphats and the team has mailed it in. So, to answer your question, no. When you see the same crap, different year, why shouldn't you want things to change?

Agreed. Also, I wonder if in a few years, when the low attendance really starts to affect who the team is able to sign, the higher-ups will point the finger at the fans and blame them.

Milw
08-05-2011, 01:39 PM
Agreed. Also, I wonder if in a few years, when the low attendance really starts to affect who the team is able to sign, the higher-ups will point the finger at the fans and blame them.
You know they will. They already are. It's always our fault, never theirs.

And the fact that this has become a Fans vs. Organization situation tells you all you need to know about where this is headed.

Dibbs
08-05-2011, 01:42 PM
I don't know if you're referring to Rongey who said this, but they need to get rid of him too. The guy is ridiculous. Is he still defending Walker? He is probably still defending the Dan Hudson trade too.

doublem23
08-05-2011, 01:44 PM
You know they will. They already are. It's always our fault, never theirs.

And the fact that this has become a Fans vs. Organization situation tells you all you need to know about where this is headed.

This has only become a "fans vs. organization" in the heads of some people who are sitting up in the clouds. KW has come out, a couple of times, and has blatantly said that "we haven't played well enough for our fans to come out and support us." Where has that soundbyte been in this thread? Nowhere, because this is just a pity party for people looking to feel bad for themselves.

For Christ's sake, the Sox are just bad this year. If they come back and have a good year in 2012, a lot of you are going to pull a 180.

Rocky Soprano
08-05-2011, 02:18 PM
I doubt he'd be worried about getting canned today if he worked in a normal work environment.

If his kids trashed his boss and organization on twitter I bet he would be canned.

SI1020
08-05-2011, 02:25 PM
This has only become a "fans vs. organization" in the heads of some people who are sitting up in the clouds. KW has come out, a couple of times, and has blatantly said that "we haven't played well enough for our fans to come out and support us." Where has that soundbyte been in this thread? Nowhere, because this is just a pity party for people looking to feel bad for themselves.

For Christ's sake, the Sox are just bad this year. If they come back and have a good year in 2012, a lot of you are going to pull a 180. It would be great if they could do it, baseball being so unpredictable. I don't see it happening with Ozzie at the helm.

PatK
08-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Yesterday, I heard on The Score, that White Sox fans who want Walker fired are nothing but meatballs. From what I could gather, those who want to see change due to the teams poor performance know nothing about the ins and outs of baseball and because of this are mere meatball fans who, out of frustration, want to see heads roll.


What you need to realize is that you heard this on not only on the Sox flagship station, but from a sportscaster as well.

If they knew as much as they proclaim, they'd be managing a team, or running an organization, or they'd played the sport (Little League doesn't count).

They are really not much more than fans or haters of any given team that just have the forum to spew their opinions to the public.

TommyJohn
08-05-2011, 03:26 PM
B&B flip-flop all the time so don't worry about them. No you are not a meatball for wanting change. All White Sox fans want is a consistent winner. I'm not saying World Series every year, but make aware that the Sox are in contention every year. Is that too much to ask?


Ok, well, they've been in contention for three of the past five seasons and won a division title in 2008. So what's the problem. They are bad this year, true. I just don't understand the attitude that they are consistently mediocre. They are doing what you are asking of them, if you ask me.

Bucky F. Dent
08-05-2011, 03:36 PM
I've never understood this logic. If the hitting coach is unable to make a difference, then why do we have one in the first place. In other words, Walker is either unnecessary or incompetent... in either case, he should be let go.


As a rule I don't phone into talk radio shows, but as I have listened to Rongey and Bernstein defend the existence of Walker, I have been tempted to phone in in order to make this very point. He's either incompetent or he's useless. Take your pick, either way he should be gone!

Bernstein especially has gone so far as to say that at this level of baseball there is nothing that Walker could possibly do to improve the hitting of Dunn and the rest.

If that is the case, then he is of no use to the organization and should be jetisoned immediately!

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 03:53 PM
As a rule I don't phone into talk radio shows, but as I have listened to Rongey and Bernstein defend the existence of Walker, I have been tempted to phone in in order to make this very point. He's either incompetent or he's useless. Take your pick, either way he should be gone!

Bernstein especially has gone so far as to say that at this level of baseball there is nothing that Walker could possibly do to improve the hitting of Dunn and the rest.

If that is the case, then he is of no use to the organization and should be jetisoned immediately!I am kinda surprised to hear that Bernstein supports Walker. Normally he is in the "management is terrible and everything about this team is a joke" camp no matter what sport it is. Then again, he takes contrarian positions, no matter how lacking in common sense they may be, just so he can sneer at others who don't agree with him.

doublem23
08-05-2011, 03:54 PM
It would be great if they could do it, baseball being so unpredictable. I don't see it happening with Ozzie at the helm.

People posted the same thing circa August 2004 and 2007.

:dunno:

SI1020
08-05-2011, 03:56 PM
Ok, well, they've been in contention for three of the past five seasons and won a division title in 2008. So what's the problem. They are bad this year, true. I just don't understand the attitude that they are consistently mediocre. They are doing what you are asking of them, if you ask me. Yeah no kidding. They've been a real juggernaut the last five years. I guess I really am a meatball.

Lip Man 1
08-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Well there is a good chance they are going to have their 3rd losing season in the past five years...just sayin'

Obviously something isn't right.

Lip

captain54
08-05-2011, 05:58 PM
For Christ's sake, the Sox are just bad this year. If they come back and have a good year in 2012, a lot of you are going to pull a 180.

It's not just this year. We've seen the same inconsistent crap since mid 06'... bad starts, can't beat the Twins, no offense, can't hit pitchers we've never seen before..etc.

It's just that this year it's all coming together in one big steaming pile of mediocrity.

and don't start with the "other teams fail too, so what's the big deal?" garbage.

I'd like for once to go to a game and sit in the stands and know that the other team fears the team I'm rooting for..

samurai_sox
08-05-2011, 06:03 PM
Because you keep hanging out with the spahgetti. :redneck

Frater Perdurabo
08-05-2011, 08:02 PM
Well there is a good chance they are going to have their 3rd losing season in the past five years...just sayin'

Obviously something isn't right.

Lip

And it's about to be the third season in a row of failing to make the playoffs.

Three years of failing to make the playoffs merits a managerial change.

Walker merited a firing a long time ago.

Bob Roarman
08-05-2011, 09:23 PM
I am kinda surprised to hear that Bernstein supports Walker. Normally he is in the "management is terrible and everything about this team is a joke" camp no matter what sport it is. Then again, he takes contrarian positions, no matter how lacking in common sense they may be, just so he can sneer at others who don't agree with him.

I don't think that anyone really supports or "defends" Walker. It's that it really won't make a difference. If you want him gone just to have him gone, it's just for that aesthetic purpose. I don't care if he gets fired or not, it's a job, it's a function on the team that no one but the team knows if he's slacking off on or not. You cannot compare hitting coaches to say, pitching coaches, based on results as I've seen on here. There's so much more control in pitching and coaching it than there is in hitting.

Lundind1
08-05-2011, 09:51 PM
The thing that bothers me is the fact that while at games, I see the team go down a run or two and they offer nothing after that. I miss the days of the fire and fight. I miss the days of a big hit, a huge inning. I see no passion, pride or commitment. No grinderball, can't pick a guy off, base running mistakes. The lack of dicipline in many areas is glaring. I feel like I am going nowhere, fast. I love what this team means and what it stood for. It was exciting to come to a game and see guys make real history or a walk off win.

It's sad to think, but even a team like the Angels who won almost 10 years ago have had only 2 losing seasons since. We could have owned this town by going to the playoffs multiple times and we totally blew it as an organization. But I guess I have not learned, shame on me. This is the second eye opener for me as a Sox fan, the first being the late 90's. I, as a fan, was blamed publicly then, and I will not come back if it happens again. I should have known better the first time around...

doublem23
08-06-2011, 12:24 AM
I don't think that anyone really supports or "defends" Walker. It's that it really won't make a difference. If you want him gone just to have him gone, it's just for that aesthetic purpose. I don't care if he gets fired or not, it's a job, it's a function on the team that no one but the team knows if he's slacking off on or not. You cannot compare hitting coaches to say, pitching coaches, based on results as I've seen on here. There's so much more control in pitching and coaching it than there is in hitting.

That is certainly true, but hitting is all about approach, and I think we can all agree that the Sox's approach at the plate is fundamentally awful. Now, who you want to blame that on, Walker being a terrible hitting coach or our players just being terrible hitters, is up to you but something is going to have to change for the Sox to get out of this seasons-long funk they have been in.

southside rocks
08-06-2011, 06:31 AM
That is certainly true, but hitting is all about approach, and I think we can all agree that the Sox's approach at the plate is fundamentally awful. Now, who you want to blame that on, Walker being a terrible hitting coach or our players just being terrible hitters, is up to you but something is going to have to change for the Sox to get out of this seasons-long funk they have been in.

This, I agree with. Well said.

It may be that the GM has to stop stocking a certain type of player; his love for the Jim Thome/Adam Dunn one-dimensional slugger -- who on paper plays well in a ballpark like US Cellular -- has saddled the team with some slow, un-agile guys who are liabilities in the field and who, when they aren't blasting the ball over the fence, are striking out or grounding into double plays and killing potential rallies.

They do have to build a better team, and the team has to play better. And the freakishly bad things, like Adam Dunn's Annus Horribilis, have to not happen. Until then, I don't spend money to go to games, and a lot of fans are right with me on that.

As for Greg Walker, I understand the frustration that has built, but if his firing would improve this team, management WOULD do it tomorrow. They are not dumber than the average internet poster, and they are not in love with a losing record, and they absolutely would cut Walker loose if that would make the team hit better. It won't. Team composition is one key and strategy/philosophy is another, and Walker is responsible for neither. He's a red herring. I want real change, I don't care about Walker.

Steve Stone was on the Score yesterday, on B&B, and one of the hosts was yammering how the Sox should have MORE of the big slugger players, because they do well at the Cell. Stone pointed out that 'you still play 81 games on the road' and also that the big sluggers 'will hit homeruns, but guys have got to get on base ahead of them.' He's right, of course.

I would like to see Adam Dunn traded, and yes, there will be takers: he's in a fluke bad year, he's not out of gas. I would like to see Rios gone. I would like to see better -- MUCH better -- defensive play, and I would like to see smart baseball, a la the Twins and Yankees, played by the White Sox. I'm hoping for an active and interesting off-season.

hawkjt
08-06-2011, 08:06 AM
Sox fans are sooooo sensitive.

1. Talk radio hosts do not represent the organization,so when they call you a meatball,that has nothing to do with the Sox organization. That is simply a sports-entertainment schtick used by abusive radio jocks like B & B to stir the pot and get ratings.

2. The Sox are still within hailing distance of winning this division,and at worst procuring their 5th winning season in the last 7. So,saying that they are not competitive is simply wrong.

3. Sox offense stinks this year,period...and has for a few years..no doubt about that. Pointing a finger at Walker,KW,or Ozzie is acceptable and expected. All fans complain about their team,and Sox fans are not outside the norm. At least 25 MLB teams fans want their pitching or hitting coach fired...what nu?

4. I agree that if the Sox thought firing Walker would wake this offense up, he would be gone. There has been a decided lack of high-average hitters on this roster for years. Approach or talent? Nature or nurture? Who knows? Bottom line,just can't hit.

Be offended by a radio host if you want,but I would let it go.
Hawk defends his friends. No shock there.
Rongey is a company man,but also tends to be rational,which Sox fans,and baseball fans,are not,after a loss especially.

Take the pain. All we can do.

FielderJones
08-06-2011, 03:53 PM
Rongey is a company man,but also tends to be rational,which Sox fans,and baseball fans,are not,after a loss especially.

The convention of adding a space after a comma really makes your thoughts much easier to read and digest.

SOXSINCE'70
08-06-2011, 03:57 PM
Ask Frank how important his hitting coach was...

https://cdn2.content.compendiumblog.com/uploads/user/7360ca38-04f6-47ce-933c-2cb1d7bcf5a5/be66592e-0079-4694-8ee2-12acbc994449/Image/161ae1ef73530b76ba537491f0531ef0/walt_hriniak.jpg

He taught Robin Ventura a few things as well,IIRC.

nsolo
08-12-2011, 12:18 PM
This, I agree with. Well said.

It may be that the GM has to stop stocking a certain type of player; his love for the Jim Thome/Adam Dunn one-dimensional slugger -- who on paper plays well in a ballpark like US Cellular -- has saddled the team with some slow, un-agile guys who are liabilities in the field and who, when they aren't blasting the ball over the fence, are striking out or grounding into double plays and killing potential rallies.

They do have to build a better team, and the team has to play better. And the freakishly bad things, like Adam Dunn's Annus Horribilis, have to not happen. Until then, I don't spend money to go to games, and a lot of fans are right with me on that.

As for Greg Walker, I understand the frustration that has built, but if his firing would improve this team, management WOULD do it tomorrow. They are not dumber than the average internet poster, and they are not in love with a losing record, and they absolutely would cut Walker loose if that would make the team hit better. It won't. Team composition is one key and strategy/philosophy is another, and Walker is responsible for neither. He's a red herring. I want real change, I don't care about Walker.

Steve Stone was on the Score yesterday, on B&B, and one of the hosts was yammering how the Sox should have MORE of the big slugger players, because they do well at the Cell. Stone pointed out that 'you still play 81 games on the road' and also that the big sluggers 'will hit homeruns, but guys have got to get on base ahead of them.' He's right, of course.

I would like to see Adam Dunn traded, and yes, there will be takers: he's in a fluke bad year, he's not out of gas. I would like to see Rios gone. I would like to see better -- MUCH better -- defensive play, and I would like to see smart baseball, a la the Twins and Yankees, played by the White Sox. I'm hoping for an active and interesting off-season.

These are my thoughts, too. To me, Kenny seems to be a kid in a candy store when it comes to available players. He's got to have whoever is the biggest name at the moment with no thought to a plan of how to build the team. Added to that, his vision of the team seems to be different than that of the field manager.

I also say that the Sox organization puts little value on the importance of high quality coaching. Paying out for quality coaching seems to be unacceptable because the current philosophy seems to be that major league talent, as evaluated by themselves, does not need teaching. If they did, then they are not major league talent.

SI1020
08-12-2011, 01:07 PM
As for Greg Walker, I understand the frustration that has built, but if his firing would improve this team, management WOULD do it tomorrow.
Not necessarily.

Zisk77
08-12-2011, 01:09 PM
This, I agree with. Well said.

It may be that the GM has to stop stocking a certain type of player; his love for the Jim Thome/Adam Dunn one-dimensional slugger -- who on paper plays well in a ballpark like US Cellular -- has saddled the team with some slow, un-agile guys who are liabilities in the field and who, when they aren't blasting the ball over the fence, are striking out or grounding into double plays and killing potential rallies.

They do have to build a better team, and the team has to play better. And the freakishly bad things, like Adam Dunn's Annus Horribilis, have to not happen. Until then, I don't spend money to go to games, and a lot of fans are right with me on that.

As for Greg Walker, I understand the frustration that has built, but if his firing would improve this team, management WOULD do it tomorrow. They are not dumber than the average internet poster, and they are not in love with a losing record, and they absolutely would cut Walker loose if that would make the team hit better. It won't. Team composition is one key and strategy/philosophy is another, and Walker is responsible for neither. He's a red herring. I want real change, I don't care about Walker.

Steve Stone was on the Score yesterday, on B&B, and one of the hosts was yammering how the Sox should have MORE of the big slugger players, because they do well at the Cell. Stone pointed out that 'you still play 81 games on the road' and also that the big sluggers 'will hit homeruns, but guys have got to get on base ahead of them.' He's right, of course.

I would like to see Adam Dunn traded, and yes, there will be takers: he's in a fluke bad year, he's not out of gas. I would like to see Rios gone. I would like to see better -- MUCH better -- defensive play, and I would like to see smart baseball, a la the Twins and Yankees, played by the White Sox. I'm hoping for an active and interesting off-season.


I pretty much agree. I've read a lot of analogies of If iI had the same success rate as Walker I'd be fired. I think they have the wrong analogy. Its more like putting a guy in charge of selling laptops to the homeless. When sales are abyssal just fire the guy in charge of sales. That will solve the problem right?

southside rocks
08-13-2011, 10:14 AM
I also say that the Sox organization puts little value on the importance of high quality coaching. Paying out for quality coaching seems to be unacceptable because the current philosophy seems to be that major league talent, as evaluated by themselves, does not need teaching. If they did, then they are not major league talent.

I think I agree with you on this. I get the impression, and I only know what the general media presents, that coaching is a more passive than active role on the Sox team. I don't think that major-league players need to be taught things, and I very much think that most of them (particularly the high-salaried guys who have had success in their careers) are quite resistant to being 'taught' things that would change them.

BUT, I think that coaching embodies the overall philosophy of the ballclub, and the defense, the running game, and the plan of attack re: opposing pitchers are things for which the coaching staff draws up the day's game plan. And when those game plans are not executed, the coaching staff absolutely should make the players pay for showing such poor baseball acumen and skills. Pay in dollar fines, pay in loss of playing time, pay in added drills, pay in just slapping them upside their well-paid heads.

My impression is that Cooper does this more *that we know of* than the rest of the coaching staff. I wonder if that is in fact the case.

Can you tell the sloppy fielding has gotten to me this year? :rolleyes:

downstairs
08-13-2011, 11:45 AM
nsolo:

You don't manage people who are hired for their rare and extreme talents and skills.

When I was a manager at a grocery store- I was responsible for pushing people to stock more cases per hour. Anyone could improve such a "skill" because it isn't a skill. If I was doing 40 cases per hour, I- and everyone else without a physical disability- could be pushed to do 50, 60, 70 cases per hour.

That doesn't work with hitting and pitching. You can't "push" Adam Dunn to hit better than .163.

downstairs
08-13-2011, 11:52 AM
My last post got me thinking:

After being a manager at a grocery store, I was a manager in the trade I actually got educated in- multimedia.

Managing animators, print designers, web designers and programmers was a VERY different universe than managing people who stock shelves. This experience was much more akin to what a baseball coach does. I couldn't just yell at someone louder to produce better quality art.

Also, I had the luxury of being able to fire people at will if necessary. Greg Walker does not. You can't fire Adam Dunn- he's under contract.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2011, 12:12 PM
Southside:

Given the fact that Sox players can't seem to hit a cutoff man, move runners along, hold opposing base runners close, bunt and so forth I'd suggest that they do need teaching at the big league level.

Obviously Ozzie and his staff can't do it properly or aren't willing to.

Lip

southside rocks
08-13-2011, 03:11 PM
Southside:

Given the fact that Sox players can't seem to hit a cutoff man, move runners along, hold opposing base runners close, bunt and so forth I'd suggest that they do need teaching at the big league level.

Obviously Ozzie and his staff can't do it properly or aren't willing to.

Lip

It's not that they don't know HOW to do those things -- they've been playing baseball for decades, do we really think they weren't taught those skills? Seriously? :rolleyes:

They just don't APPLY the skills and they don't play heads-up baseball, or head-in-the-game baseball. They need to be held accountable for not employing the skills they have.

I know you hate Ozzie, and I don't, so we will not agree on the culpability of Ozzie Guillen in this. C'est la vie.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2011, 04:01 PM
Southside:

Incorrect.

I don't hate Ozzie. Feel free to go back and look through the threads over the years. You'll find numerous times I've said I still feel Ozzie is the best option for the club because of his passion and willingness to stick his neck out for it.

Go ahead, take a look.

That has changed this year.

In my opinion he has lost the club and his managerial decisions simply make you go 'what...?'

I also think that after eight years with the team a change of scenery is needed. (and potentially with Kenny too...). Mike Ditka said one time if a coach is with an organization for ten years he gets stale. Mike was right in my opinion.

Let's face facts South, we're not talking about a guy with a track record say of Al Lopez are we? And yes the players are certainly partially responsible...but isn't it odd that despite numerous players, from numerous organizations, with different levels of experience and at different age levels the results have been mediocre for five consecutive seasons now?

Isn't it odd that despite all those different players the Sox still can't execute simple basic fundamentals? And who is responsible for holding them accountable as you say?

Why it's the field manager and to an extent his coaches.

Oh my!

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

(See I can use more eye rolls)

Lip

SI1020
08-13-2011, 05:30 PM
Why is it if you like someone or something and I don't then I'm a hater? If I like someone or something and you don't then of course you're a hater too. What a dumb time we live in.

Lip Man 1
08-13-2011, 06:10 PM
SI:

Agree. You make a valid point as some have posted here from time to time it's always one extreme or the other, black or white...no shades of grey.

Lip