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View Full Version : Ozzie ultimatum?


MetroPD
08-03-2011, 08:33 PM
http://sports.yahoo.com/video/player/news/Graham_Bensinger_InDepth/26116801;_ylt=Av5DpZ3nY5EMAWU0UPWkvwYRvLYF#news/Graham_Bensinger_InDepth/26116801

Madvora
08-03-2011, 08:44 PM
Get out!

LITTLE NELL
08-03-2011, 08:46 PM
I saw that before we went out to dinner tonight and was going to post it. Now I see why his kids are idiots, they didn't fall far from the tree. When he finally is shown door it's going to be something to remember.

voodoochile
08-03-2011, 09:06 PM
Okay since it's not captioned, what is the ultimatum, translation for us hearing impaired folks please...

John Barrett
08-03-2011, 09:11 PM
Don't let the door hit ya in the ass Oz! The fact that
You keep putting Rios out there makes me what you gone !

happydude
08-03-2011, 09:16 PM
Okay since it's not captioned, what is the ultimatum, translation for us hearing impaired folks please...

Essentially, Ozzie said he had a conversation with JR in which JR stated or suggested he had no intention of "doing anything" with Ozzie; Ozzie said his response was "if you want me to stay, a lot of things have to be better..".

Madvora
08-03-2011, 09:21 PM
Essentially, Ozzie said he had a conversation with JR in which JR stated or suggested he had no intention of "doing anything" with Ozzie; Ozzie said his response was "if you want me to stay, a lot of things have to be better..".
That's basically what the fans are saying to JR too.

Hitmen77
08-03-2011, 09:27 PM
Essentially, Ozzie said he had a conversation with JR in which JR stated or suggested he had no intention of "doing anything" with Ozzie; Ozzie said his response was "if you want me to stay, a lot of things have to be better..".

Who is this aimed at? Kenny Williams? What has to get better? Better coaches? Better players? Better at developing their own talent?

JR gave KW, Ozzie & Co. a pretty big payroll this year. So what does Ozzie want JR to change?

chisox12
08-03-2011, 09:29 PM
Who is this aimed at? Kenny Williams? What has to get better? Better coaches? Better players? Better at developing their own talent?

JR gave KW, Ozzie & Co. a pretty big payroll this year. So what does Ozzie want JR to change?

I'm thinking Ozzie wants the GM to change.

Noneck
08-03-2011, 09:31 PM
More proof Reinsdorf doesnt give the responsibility that is afforded to GM's. Guillens conversation should have been with Williams. As I have said times before, Reinsdorf is so much more involved, mainly responsibilities that should be done by a GM, than people think.

kittle42
08-03-2011, 09:34 PM
Everyone can get out.

palehozenychicty
08-03-2011, 09:35 PM
If this is anywhere near accurate, then Ozzie wants to move on and that is fine. The players are not making an effort for him anymore. His sons are a distraction.

I respect Ozzie's love for this franchise, but nothing lasts forever. JR doesn't have a hard choice here. Management needs a new direction. It's clear as day.

Frater Perdurabo
08-03-2011, 09:40 PM
I'm not saying that Ozzie is demanding/requesting the KW be fired. He clearly does not say that in the video. But there's no way to tell exactly what he's thinking.

So, hypothetically, if JR had to choose between KW and Ozzie, who would he choose?

We have one somewhat similar historical parallel that may (or may not) be instructive: When Jerry Krause and Phil Jackson couldn't get along during and after the 1998 NBA Finals victory, JR sided with Krause by allowing him to bring in Tim Floyd. After Jackson said he was leaving, the Bulls made a seemingly obligatory/perfunctory/CYA contract offer to Jackson, probably realizing he'd reject it.

While past performance does not always dictate future results, based on JR's history or "organizational loyalty," I get the sense he would side with KW if Ozzie made an ultimatum, but then again he might decide he can keep both happy by promoting KW and hiring a new GM.

MetroPD
08-03-2011, 09:41 PM
Management needs a new direction. It's clear as day.
I think I have to agree with this. JR has put up the money and has recieved nothing in return but a kick in the teeth. Ozzie sometimes you are your own worst enemy.

DirtySox
08-03-2011, 09:45 PM
So, hypothetically, if JR had to choose between KW and Ozzie, who would he choose?


They should both kick rocks.

veeter
08-03-2011, 09:49 PM
There's no chain of command in the Sox organization. That means it's a free for all. Not that that hasn't been on full display for years now. Even during the 05 season the ******* was "threatening" retirement. Ozzie is like a three year old. Blurting out comments, misbehaving, and not getting corrected by his parents. Or in this case Reinsdorf. So he's out of control. I just can't believe how long this has gone on. I've lost all respect for the whole organization. We have sunk to cub level, and that's the truth. The championship has created a weird situation where the manager of that team is now hated by Sox fans who pay attention. In hindsight, to me, Ozzie's a punk who was the monkey driving the bus.

Jerko
08-03-2011, 10:00 PM
Wait, OZZIE gave the ultimatum? Talk about brass balls (or having your head up your own ass)

billyvsox
08-03-2011, 10:23 PM
Is it possible Ozzie blames this mess of a team on Kenny Williams. It kind of makes sense and thats why he is being stubborn and continuing to play Dunn and Rios. Kind of shoving it in KW's face to prove to JR this is not his kind of team?

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 10:28 PM
Is it possible Ozzie blames this mess of a team on Kenny Williams. It kind of makes sense and thats why he is being stubborn and continuing to play Dunn and Rios. Kind of shoving it in KW's face to prove to JR this is not his kind of team?

If that's the case, then he deserves to be fired anyway for sabotaging the team just to prove a point and make someone else the fall guy.

Aesero
08-03-2011, 10:35 PM
Is it possible Ozzie blames this mess of a team on Kenny Williams. It kind of makes sense and thats why he is being stubborn and continuing to play Dunn and Rios. Kind of shoving it in KW's face to prove to JR this is not his kind of team?

That was always my feeling on it. Ozzie wants 9 Juan Pierres. He was instead given a power hitter for DH. So now that the acquisition is failing he's going to continue to put him out there as a sort of "see I told you so" moment.

Rocky Soprano
08-03-2011, 10:39 PM
That was always my feeling on it. Ozzie wants 9 Juan Pierres. He was instead given a power hitter for DH. So now that the acquisition is failing he's going to continue to put him out there as a sort of "see I told you so" moment.

Ozzie got his wish last year and Thome was not brought back. How did that work out?

Aesero
08-03-2011, 10:44 PM
Ozzie got his wish last year and Thome was not brought back. How did that work out?

Hey technically they did better than Dunn! Just imagine we could have some .220 Mark Kotsay action right now.

thomas35forever
08-03-2011, 10:45 PM
There's no chain of command in the Sox organization. That means it's a free for all. Not that that hasn't been on full display for years now. Even during the 05 season the ******* was "threatening" retirement. Ozzie is like a three year old. Blurting out comments, misbehaving, and not getting corrected by his parents. Or in this case Reinsdorf. So he's out of control. I just can't believe how long this has gone on. I've lost all respect for the whole organization. We have sunk to cub level, and that's the truth. The championship has created a weird situation where the manager of that team is now hated by Sox fans who pay attention. In hindsight, to me, Ozzie's a punk who was the monkey driving the bus.
If you've lost respect for the organization, stop following it and go somewhere else.

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 10:48 PM
If you've lost respect for the organization, stop following it and go somewhere else.

:rolleyes:

DirtySox
08-03-2011, 10:48 PM
If you've lost respect for the organization, stop following it and go somewhere else.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Brian26
08-03-2011, 10:51 PM
"It would be an honor to manage the Marlins."

:rolleyes:

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 10:54 PM
"It would be an honor to manage the Marlins."

:rolleyes:

Read: I'll coach any team who's dumb enough to pay me for this ****.

Domeshot17
08-03-2011, 11:04 PM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

GoGoCrede
08-03-2011, 11:07 PM
Essentially, Ozzie said he had a conversation with JR in which JR stated or suggested he had no intention of "doing anything" with Ozzie; Ozzie said his response was "if you want me to stay, a lot of things have to be better..".

That's basically what the fans are saying to JR too.

Ha, zing. And I agree, his comments seem pretty rich.

Rocky Soprano
08-03-2011, 11:08 PM
Hey technically they did better than Dunn! Just imagine we could have some .220 Mark Kotsay action right now.

I guess I missed the division championship.

GoGoCrede
08-03-2011, 11:08 PM
If you've lost respect for the organization, stop following it and go somewhere else.

Your signature kind of implies that you've lost respect for it too.

Aesero
08-03-2011, 11:14 PM
I guess I missed the division championship.

Don't need division championship to say that the crapshoot we had at DH last season was marginally better than this Dunn/Rios combo.

Rocky Soprano
08-03-2011, 11:21 PM
Don't need division championship to say that the crapshoot we had at DH last season was marginally better than this Dunn/Rios combo.

You're okay with marginally better results?

Aesero
08-03-2011, 11:26 PM
You're okay with marginally better results?

I'll take marginally better results over marginally worse any day of the week. I fail to see what point you're trying to argue about with me.

samurai_sox
08-03-2011, 11:26 PM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

:rolling:

What team have you been watching?

(I'm not an ozzpologist, I want him gone yesterday)

Rocky Soprano
08-03-2011, 11:29 PM
I'll take marginally better results over marginally worse any day of the week. I fail to see what point you're trying to argue about with me.

If Dunn was having a career average year, would you still be asking for Kotsay?
Ozzie can blame KW this year for signing Dunn but then KW should blame Ozzie for last year.

This team should be shooting to win the division every single year and not to have a marginally better DH. The Sox failed last year. Period.

Aesero
08-03-2011, 11:35 PM
If Dunn was having a career average year, would you still be asking for Kotsay?
Ozzie can blame KW this year for signing Dunn but then KW should blame Ozzie for last year.

This team should be shooting to win the division every single year and not to have a marginally better DH. The Sox failed last year. Period.

I really didn't think I needed to teal my first post. What I had said went with the fact that Ozzie's way last season (Kotsay DH) did better than KW's plans for this season (Dunn DH). I intended that point to go along with my post saying Ozzie is playing Dunn everyday as a "I told you so" against KW.

I'm not asking for Kotsay, and I was a fan of the Dunn signing. If you check my short post history you'll see that I've said multiple times to put the best players on the field to win.

Rocky Soprano
08-03-2011, 11:38 PM
I really didn't think I needed to teal my first post. What I had said went with the fact that Ozzie's way last season (Kotsay DH) did better than KW's plans for this season (Dunn DH). I intended that point to go along with my post saying Ozzie is playing Dunn everyday as a "I told you so" against KW.

I'm not asking for Kotsay, and I was a fan of the Dunn signing. If you check my short post history you'll see that I've said multiple times to put the best players on the field to win.

And all I was saying was that if Ozzie was playing Dunn as a I told you so, that KW could point to the previous year and blame Ozzie.

Yes Kotsay was marginally better, but marginally better results are not good enough.

TheOldRoman
08-03-2011, 11:38 PM
:rolling:

What team have you been watching?

(I'm not an ozzpologist, I want him gone yesterday)The team which won 86 games last year and now has an improved bullpen and a perennial 40 homer/100 RBI DH. The team with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball, which has lots of talent on offense. This is an extremely talented team which just so happens to have 7/9 regulars under-performing (can't include Morel because we don't know what level he can perform at), including Dunn unexpectedly having one of the worst seasons of all time. Even accounting for Walkerian megaslumps, the struggles of this team are completely unprecedented. But it's easier to write the team off and say they have no talent than to evaluate why they are playing poorly.

Tragg
08-03-2011, 11:41 PM
I really didn't think I needed to teal my first post. What I had said went with the fact that Ozzie's way last season (Kotsay DH) did better than KW's plans for this season (Dunn DH). I intended that point to go along with my post saying Ozzie is playing Dunn everyday as a "I told you so" against KW.

I'm not asking for Kotsay, and I was a fan of the Dunn signing. If you check my short post history you'll see that I've said multiple times to put the best players on the field to win.

You can go back one further. Had Ozzie not demanded the banishment of Jim Thome, we wouldn't have signed Dunn...so it's KW saying "I told you so". Or further than that...had Anderson not been traded, there would have been no Kotsay to mesmerize Guillen with his elite skill, and then Guillen wouldn't have demanded that Thome be vanquished, and with Thome no Dunn.....
Actually it's just more zigging then zagging then zigging. Really actually, it's poor talent evaluation.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2011, 11:46 PM
I like Ozzie, I think he is a good manager and were he to say go to Florida I think he would have some success there but I think he's checked out on this team and has lost the team.

Aesero
08-03-2011, 11:50 PM
You can go back one further. Had Ozzie not demanded the banishment of Jim Thome, we wouldn't have signed Dunn...so it's KW saying "I told you so". Or further than that...had Anderson not been traded, there would have been no Kotsay to mesmerize Guillen with his elite skill, and then Guillen wouldn't have demanded that Thome be vanquished, and with Thome no Dunn.....
Actually it's just more zigging then zagging then zigging. Really actually, it's poor talent evaluation.

In the end all Ozzie would say is that he works with the players hes given, pushing blame onto KW. "He makes too much money to not play." "With the current roster I can't play Viciedo everyday." He can just fall on these points (however idiotic they may be) and pass blame.

I don't agree with any of it, but that is what would happen.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2011, 11:51 PM
You can go back one further. Had Ozzie not demanded the banishment of Jim Thome, we wouldn't have signed Dunn...so it's KW saying "I told you so". Or further than that...had Anderson not been traded, there would have been no Kotsay to mesmerize Guillen with his elite skill, and then Guillen wouldn't have demanded that Thome be vanquished, and with Thome no Dunn.....
Actually it's just more zigging then zagging then zigging. Really actually, it's poor talent evaluation.

Okay, I want to ATTEMPT to explain what I think Ozzie meant one last time. It wasn't that he didn't want a slugger or anything like that, what Ozzie wanted was a guy who could occasionally play the field to rest Konerko on some days without losing Konerko's bat. The problem is Thome just can't play the field anymore. I don't think that Ozzie wanted Kotsay as his DH per se (though I am just speculating), what he wanted was a guy who provided more flexibility at the DH spot. I don't think that that was necessarily a bad strategy, it was just that Kenny left him with Kotsay and Jones and Ozzie used them in those roles.

thomas35forever
08-03-2011, 11:55 PM
Your signature kind of implies that you've lost respect for it too.
Not so. I'm just acknowledging that we've got problems. I never said anything about respect.

JB98
08-04-2011, 12:07 AM
The team which won 86 games last year and now has an improved bullpen and a perennial 40 homer/100 RBI DH. The team with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball, which has lots of talent on offense. This is an extremely talented team which just so happens to have 7/9 regulars under-performing (can't include Morel because we don't know what level he can perform at), including Dunn unexpectedly having one of the worst seasons of all time. Even accounting for Walkerian megaslumps, the struggles of this team are completely unprecedented. But it's easier to write the team off and say they have no talent than to evaluate why they are playing poorly.

Actually, the Sox were 88-74 last year. That's why a lot of folks thought they could win 90 this year, with the addition of Dunn and some experienced bullpen pieces.

Tragg
08-04-2011, 12:09 AM
Okay, I want to ATTEMPT to explain what I think Ozzie meant one last time. It wasn't that he didn't want a slugger or anything like that, what Ozzie wanted was a guy who could occasionally play the field to rest Konerko on some days without losing Konerko's bat. The problem is Thome just can't play the field anymore. I don't think that Ozzie wanted Kotsay as his DH per se (though I am just speculating), what he wanted was a guy who provided more flexibility at the DH spot. I don't think that that was necessarily a bad strategy, it was just that Kenny left him with Kotsay and Jones and Ozzie used them in those roles.

First, what I MEANT with this post was that either some decent talent evaluation from Guillen or some leadership from Williams could have stopped this cycle several steps earlier.

I agree with you that that's what Guillen meant - he wants some flexibility as you described. But it's also true that he has a virtual blind eye for talent for some types of ballplayers. He said that signing Kotsay was the most important move that the Sox could make in the 2009 offseason (before the 2010 season). He loves that kind of player....utility outfielders that he thinks are not only starters, but major cogs to an offense

JB98
08-04-2011, 12:11 AM
First, what I MEANT with this post was that either some decent talent evaluation from Guillen or some leadership from Williams could have stopped this cycle several steps earlier.

I agree with you that that's what Guillen meant - he wants some flexibility as you described. But it's also true that he has a virtual blind eye for talent for some types of ballplayers. He said that signing Kotsay was the most important move that the Sox could make in the 2009 offseason (before the 2010 season). He loves that kind of player....utility outfielders that he thinks are not only starters, but major cogs to an offense

He babbled on today about how the Sox "play better" with Vizquel in the lineup. Last year, I might have agreed with him. This year, not so much. Omar is pretty clearly done. But on this club, he's batting second. :scratch:

Tragg
08-04-2011, 12:40 AM
He babbled on today about how the Sox "play better" with Vizquel in the lineup. Last year, I might have agreed with him. This year, not so much. Omar is pretty clearly done. But on this club, he's batting second. :scratch:
The thing is, Williams has known for years that Guillen can't evaluate talent (or at least has major blind spots)..but he keeps giving Guillen these toys and lets him abuse them. (not to be vulgar).
The team of Ozzie and Williams just isn't working....they make each other worse these days.

BainesHOF
08-04-2011, 02:16 AM
Guillen needs to look in the mirror. He's an embarrassment as a manager during games and off the field.

Dan H
08-04-2011, 02:32 AM
It's time to stop with all the denial. The White Sox are an awful team, and Ozzie doesn't make them better. He should have been fired in May. But better later than never. The time is now.

asindc
08-04-2011, 06:52 AM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

:rolling:

What team have you been watching?

(I'm not an ozzpologist, I want him gone yesterday)

The team which won 86 games last year and now has an improved bullpen and a perennial 40 homer/100 RBI DH. The team with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball, which has lots of talent on offense. This is an extremely talented team which just so happens to have 7/9 regulars under-performing (can't include Morel because we don't know what level he can perform at), including Dunn unexpectedly having one of the worst seasons of all time. Even accounting for Walkerian megaslumps, the struggles of this team are completely unprecedented. But it's easier to write the team off and say they have no talent than to evaluate why they are playing poorly.

OR, I'm guessing that he won't respond to your post. It is easier to say "Why did KW sign no-talent bums like Dunn in the first place?"

Samurai, if you think they have no talent, why are you upset that they are playing at their talent level?

wassagstdu
08-04-2011, 06:53 AM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

Here goes. First this is not a World Series caliber team, not even on paper. It is a team of streaky pull-or-die-trying hitters who have no clue how to play the game in the field and pitchers who are sometimes good, sometimes for several games in a row, but not very and not consistently.

Ozzie who values fundamentals and situational hitting is presented year after year with a team full of players who can't do either. So should he start them back at little league level and teach them? Not possible -- even though he is trying through Vizquel with Ramirez. The organization needs to teach and value fundamentals in the minor league system, which it won't or can't do, and value fundamentals and situational hitting in trades and free agent signings, which KW refuses to do.

Ozzie having a temper tantrum and playing Dunn and Rios just to spite KW? Bull****. I'll bet Williams has ordered him to play Dunn every day, and maybe Rios too, though in Rios' case I think Ozzie may know more than we do and know Rios better than we do. At least we know Rios has plenty of talent, and has shown it in a Sox uniform, something nobody can say about Dunn.

Who is being obstinate, Ozzie who plays the team he is given even though he is never given the team he wants, or Williams who refuses to learn from past mistakes but whose approach is to double down ala Adam Dunn?

I'm with Ozzie. And don't start with Dewayne Wise and Darrin Ersted or Mark Kotsay because I will demolish your argument with Adam Dunn. When KW goes Ozzie's way it is always on the CHEAP, but for a cardboard cutout of a player like Dunn he goes ALL IN.

Jurr
08-04-2011, 07:24 AM
Certain managers are front runners who are great when things are going well.
Ozzie is that guy. He keeps the clubhouse "loose" and "takes pressure off of players".

When things aren't going well, Ozzie is lost. The other thing about him is his total inability to motivate/demand results from players with security. The Yankees and Red Soc have shown how this works. You can have fully vested veterans with no trade clauses and still hold an organizational structure that demands excellence. Obviously the Sox have been unable to do this, and JR/KW are at fault for not understanding their manager's weakness in this department.

The one year that the Sox acheived success was directly after cleaning house.
They picked up a bunch of veterans with SOMETHING TO PROVE. Dye and Everett were injury plagued. Pierzynski was ostracized from his previous club. Contreras and El Duque were looking to find former successes return.

The team banded together with great focus and unity. They all had something to play for.

Since then, the front office has been trying to load the team up with veterans who have high contracts with extensions, figuring that they could just "plug in those numbers" and achieve greatness.

Ozzie has shown that he can't manage these guys. He has to be the leader of the band, and sometimes you need strong presences in the clubhouse to demand more from the team. It happens in every other successful veteran clubhouse.

It's time to inject new blood into this team, top to bottom.

Bucky F. Dent
08-04-2011, 07:27 AM
I love Ozzie. He's one of my favorite players, and one of my favorite personalities from this organ-I-zation. Hell, he managed the team to a World Series Championship for Chrisssakes!

But, I beliieve it's time for Ozzie to take his talents to South Beach.

Thanks for the memories, Oz.

LITTLE NELL
08-04-2011, 07:42 AM
He babbled on today about how the Sox "play better" with Vizquel in the lineup. Last year, I might have agreed with him. This year, not so much. Omar is pretty clearly done. But on this club, he's batting second. :scratch:
Why is he batting second? The answer is that we have another guy who is lost at the plate and that is Beckham, he should be the ideal #2 hitter instead all I see him doing is trying to hit HRs and striking out a lot. Where is the Beckham we saw in the last half of 09 when he was driving the ball to the opposite field, I would bet that half his hits in 09 were to right side of the field.
At this point there is no one on this team that if they were traded would bother me except for PK.

34rancher
08-04-2011, 07:47 AM
You're okay with marginally better results?

I'd take the same results. 88 wins prob wins central this year. Hell, without Adam Dunn and Rios, we stumble to the division. I'd take kotsay back over Dunn in a heartbeat. Heck, I'd take about 600 other major leaguers over Dunn (and yes even in his "average years"). He's a loser. Loser is what you get called until you win. I blame this on Kenny and his fascination with softball teams. I sat through too many strikeouts and left runners on in the early 2000s.

GoSox2K3
08-04-2011, 08:19 AM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

Let me guess:

When is the witch hunt against Ozzie going to end? First people bitch that we have Kotsay over Thome and now people bitch that Ozzie is playing Dunn every day. When are people going to get over their obsessive hate of Ozzie? HATERS!

:tongue:

asindc
08-04-2011, 08:21 AM
Certain managers are front runners who are great when things are going well.
Ozzie is that guy. He keeps the clubhouse "loose" and "takes pressure off of players".

When things aren't going well, Ozzie is lost. The other thing about him is his total inability to motivate/demand results from players with security. The Yankees and Red Soc have shown how this works. You can have fully vested veterans with no trade clauses and still hold an organizational structure that demands excellence. Obviously the Sox have been unable to do this, and JR/KW are at fault for not understanding their manager's weakness in this department.

The one year that the Sox acheived success was directly after cleaning house.
They picked up a bunch of veterans with SOMETHING TO PROVE. Dye and Everett were injury plagued. Pierzynski was ostracized from his previous club. Contreras and El Duque were looking to find former successes return.

The team banded together with great focus and unity. They all had something to play for.

Since then, the front office has been trying to load the team up with veterans who have high contracts with extensions, figuring that they could just "plug in those numbers" and achieve greatness.

Ozzie has shown that he can't manage these guys. He has to be the leader of the band, and sometimes you need strong presences in the clubhouse to demand more from the team. It happens in every other successful veteran clubhouse.

It's time to inject new blood into this team, top to bottom.

I agree 100%. I'm as big a KW fan as anyone, but if it takes cleaning house completely to get beyond this malaise, I'm all for it.

cards press box
08-04-2011, 08:44 AM
Certain managers are front runners who are great when things are going well. Ozzie is that guy. He keeps the clubhouse "loose" and "takes pressure off of players". When things aren't going well, Ozzie is lost.

Baseball managers tend to be the opposite of the guys they replace. Jerry Manual was too passive. Who replaced him? Ozzie. At first, Ozzie brought a lot of energy and the Sox benefited from it. And, in 2005, the Sox banded together and won a championshipo behind solid pitching, solid defense and just enough offense.

Since 2005, Ozzie would turn a little sour when things didn't go well. He didn't seem to have any response other than blowing up after a period of bad play. I have been concerned that such an approach gets old after a while and loses its effectiveness.

Looking back at the last six years, Ozzie has had too much drama, particularly in 2010. The team now seems listless and adrift. Might be time for a new manager -- someone who is less like the players' older brother and more like a steady authority figure.

Everyone can get out.

Ozzie has shown that he can't manage these guys. He has to be the leader of the band, and sometimes you need strong presences in the clubhouse to demand more from the team. It happens in every other successful veteran clubhouse.

It's time to inject new blood into this team, top to bottom.

I know how the Sox can do this: let Ozzie go to Miami, kick KW upstairs to become club president, make Rick Hahn the GM and let Hahn hire his manager.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 08:54 AM
He babbled on today about how the Sox "play better" with Vizquel in the lineup. Last year, I might have agreed with him. This year, not so much. Omar is pretty clearly done. But on this club, he's batting second. :scratch:

Vizquel's a piece of **** who is going through the motions. He should have been DFA'd after he got picked off base a week or two ago.

asindc
08-04-2011, 08:59 AM
Baseball managers tend to be the opposite of the guys they replace. Jerry Manual was too passive. Who replaced him? Ozzie. At first, Ozzie brought a lot of energy and the Sox benefited from it. And, in 2005, the Sox banded together and won a championshipo behind solid pitching, solid defense and just enough offense.

Since 2005, Ozzie would turn a little sour when things didn't go well. He didn't seem to have any response other than blowing up after a period of bad play. I have been concerned that such an approach gets old after a while and loses its effectiveness.

Looking back at the last six years, Ozzie has had too much drama, particularly in 2010. The team now seems listless and adrift. Might be time for a new manager -- someone who is less like the players' older brother and more like a steady authority figure.





I know how the Sox can do this: let Ozzie go to Miami, kick KW upstairs to become club president, make Rick Hahn the GM and let Hahn hire his manager.

I've always been generally supportive of Ozzie (though I haven't always liked some of his game time decisions), but I had never liked this aspect of his approach. While I think some fellow Sox fans give Gardenhire way too much credit, one thing Gardenhire does that I like is that he will sit your ass down if you don't perform, period. Ozzie is just too sympathetic towards players for the team's good.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 09:02 AM
It's time to stop with all the denial. The White Sox are an awful team, and Ozzie doesn't make them better. He should have been fired in May. But better later than never. The time is now.See below:

The team which won 86 games last year and now has an improved bullpen and a perennial 40 homer/100 RBI DH. The team with one of the best pitching staffs in baseball, which has lots of talent on offense. This is an extremely talented team which just so happens to have 7/9 regulars under-performing (can't include Morel because we don't know what level he can perform at), including Dunn unexpectedly having one of the worst seasons of all time. Even accounting for Walkerian megaslumps, the struggles of this team are completely unprecedented. But it's easier to write the team off and say they have no talent than to evaluate why they are playing poorly.

TomBradley72
08-04-2011, 09:20 AM
Well....if Ozzie doesn't leave- then next Opening Day we have Ozzie in the dugout- and Rios, Dunn, Peavy, AJ, Ohmann, Konerko, etc. on the roster- so we may as well wait until 2013 or 2014 for any hope.

From "All In" to "All Out".

kaufsox
08-04-2011, 09:40 AM
Hate to say, but one of the two has to go, KW or Ozzie. I would let Ozzie go, let KW pick his guy and see where it goes. If the new KW regime doesn't work, everybody goes. I have to admit, it seems like JR likes the drama. Remembering all those Bulls teams, hell even recent Bulls teams, there is a bit of tension in everything JR seems to do.

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:41 AM
I know how the Sox can do this: let Ozzie go to Miami, kick KW upstairs to become club president, make Rick Hahn the GM and let Hahn hire his manager.

I don't know that I really like that option. Yes, I've seen it written that Hahn is one of the most sought after assistant GM's in baseball now, but I don't that I like any internal options now. I think continuing with any philosophy the White Sox currently have won't necessarily lead to better results. I'm not sure what the external options are, in terms of what asst. or former GMs are available, but I think a complete overhaul of the organization and how it is run is needed, and I don't trust a team of Hahn and Williams to do that.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 09:53 AM
Well....if Ozzie doesn't leave- then next Opening Day we have Ozzie in the dugout- and Rios, Dunn, Peavy, AJ, Ohmann, Konerko, etc. on the roster- so we may as well wait until 2013 or 2014 for any hope.

From "All In" to "All Out".I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Set aside Dunn's rebound and the fact that Peavy is still rebuilding strength after his surgery. AJ and Ohman have been pretty good this year and Konerko has been great. I don't see why it's bad to have those three on the roster. What point are you trying to make, that it will be only them and a bunch of AAA guys?

24thStFan
08-04-2011, 09:57 AM
I think a complete overhaul of the organization and how it is run is needed, and I don't trust a team of Hahn and Williams to do that.

After the WS Championship, I thought the Sox would become one of the elite organizations in baseball. I believed that the partnership of Ozzie and KW would produce more championships.

But instead of working together Ozzie and KW have became rivals with competing views of how to build the organization. And neither one has been able to come up with the winning formula. Now it's just a pissing contest.

It's time to bring in a completely new management team. Sad but true.

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:59 AM
After the WS Championship, I thought the Sox would become one of the elite organizations in baseball. I believed that the partnership of Ozzie and KW would produce more championships.

But instead of working together Ozzie and KW have became rivals with competing views of how to build the organization. And neither one has been able to come up with the winning formula. Now it's just a pissing contest.

It's time to bring in a completely new management team. Sad but true.

I've seen a few people here ask whether it's Ozzie or KW that should go. I'd like to see both of them gone.

SI1020
08-04-2011, 10:19 AM
Certain managers are front runners who are great when things are going well.
Ozzie is that guy. He keeps the clubhouse "loose" and "takes pressure off of players".

When things aren't going well, Ozzie is lost. The other thing about him is his total inability to motivate/demand results from players with security. The Yankees and Red Soc have shown how this works. You can have fully vested veterans with no trade clauses and still hold an organizational structure that demands excellence. Obviously the Sox have been unable to do this, and JR/KW are at fault for not understanding their manager's weakness in this department.

The one year that the Sox acheived success was directly after cleaning house.
They picked up a bunch of veterans with SOMETHING TO PROVE. Dye and Everett were injury plagued. Pierzynski was ostracized from his previous club. Contreras and El Duque were looking to find former successes return.

The team banded together with great focus and unity. They all had something to play for.

Since then, the front office has been trying to load the team up with veterans who have high contracts with extensions, figuring that they could just "plug in those numbers" and achieve greatness.

Ozzie has shown that he can't manage these guys. He has to be the leader of the band, and sometimes you need strong presences in the clubhouse to demand more from the team. It happens in every other successful veteran clubhouse.

It's time to inject new blood into this team, top to bottom. This.

Here goes. First this is not a World Series caliber team, not even on paper. It is a team of streaky pull-or-die-trying hitters who have no clue how to play the game in the field and pitchers who are sometimes good, sometimes for several games in a row, but not very and not consistently.

Ozzie who values fundamentals and situational hitting is presented year after year with a team full of players who can't do either. So should he start them back at little league level and teach them? Not possible -- even though he is trying through Vizquel with Ramirez. The organization needs to teach and value fundamentals in the minor league system, which it won't or can't do, and value fundamentals and situational hitting in trades and free agent signings, which KW refuses to do.

Ozzie having a temper tantrum and playing Dunn and Rios just to spite KW? Bull****. I'll bet Williams has ordered him to play Dunn every day, and maybe Rios too, though in Rios' case I think Ozzie may know more than we do and know Rios better than we do. At least we know Rios has plenty of talent, and has shown it in a Sox uniform, something nobody can say about Dunn.

Who is being obstinate, Ozzie who plays the team he is given even though he is never given the team he wants, or Williams who refuses to learn from past mistakes but whose approach is to double down ala Adam Dunn?

I'm with Ozzie. And don't start with Dewayne Wise and Darrin Ersted or Mark Kotsay because I will demolish your argument with Adam Dunn. When KW goes Ozzie's way it is always on the CHEAP, but for a cardboard cutout of a player like Dunn he goes ALL IN. I'm with you in the first two paragraphs. After that not so much.

KMcMahon817
08-04-2011, 10:20 AM
I am now officially done with Ozzie. Fire him...team is better off without him.

russ99
08-04-2011, 11:30 AM
Ozzie has a World Series caliber team well under .500 and he is giving threats and demands? Can't wait for the ozzpologists to spin this one

What are you smoking? On paper, this is a contender for a playoff spot, not a World Series caliber team.

Even if all things were clicking, could we beat the Yankees, Rangers or Phillies in a seven game series?

Again, on paper. Reality is a different thing. Your want to blame the manager, go ahead. But these guys have had plenty of at-bats to live up to the hype and have not done so. We are what we are: Decent (but not league-best) pitching, and Konerko. The rest is hit or miss.

Also, to me the "changes" Ozzie is speaking of could certainly be that he can't ask Jerry to fire a certain coach, despite what was said in the press...

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 11:37 AM
What are you smoking? On paper, this is a contender for a playoff spot, not a World Series caliber team.

Even if all things were clicking, could we beat the Yankees, Rangers or Phillies in a seven game series?

Again, on paper. Reality is a different thing. Your want to blame the manager, go ahead. But these guys have had plenty of at-bats to live up to the hype and have not done so. We are what we are: Decent (but not league-best) pitching, and Konerko. The rest is hit or miss.

Also, to me the "changes" Ozzie is speaking of could certainly be that he can't ask Jerry to fire a certain coach, despite what was said in the press...Sure. Anything can happen in a short series, and the Yankees are particularly vulnerable, with a terrible rotation outside of Captain Cheeseburger. Facing Garcia and Colon in the playoffs wouldn't scare most teams. The Sox may not be the single most talented team in baseball (and obviously neither was the 2005 team), but there is more than enough talent on this roster to make a deep playoff run.

Domeshot17
08-04-2011, 11:50 AM
What are you smoking? On paper, this is a contender for a playoff spot, not a World Series caliber team.

Even if all things were clicking, could we beat the Yankees, Rangers or Phillies in a seven game series?

Again, on paper. Reality is a different thing. Your want to blame the manager, go ahead. But these guys have had plenty of at-bats to live up to the hype and have not done so. We are what we are: Decent (but not league-best) pitching, and Konerko. The rest is hit or miss.

Also, to me the "changes" Ozzie is speaking of could certainly be that he can't ask Jerry to fire a certain coach, despite what was said in the press...

This is the problem. Every team Ozzie has managed since 2006 has under performed.

Rocky Soprano
08-04-2011, 12:35 PM
This is the problem. Every team Ozzie has managed since 2006 has under performed.

Don't bring facts into this argument Domeshot! Ozzie has no fault.
2005!

KyWhiSoxFan
08-04-2011, 12:45 PM
Where the Sox as an organization have really failed is in trying to eliminate variables to see what the problem really is. And you can't do that by standing pat and hoping against hope that things change and the team will start playing a lot better.

If the problem is inconsistent hitting, then Greg Walker must go. That is step one.
If that does not work, then it may be motivation of the players, as Ozzie can't get anyone or everyone to maximize their potential and always under perform. Fire Ozzie is step two.
If none of those two work, then it is the players, and that is all KW's fault. Fire him. Step three.

By doing nothing all year long, you go into the off season having no idea where the problems lie and what the potential solutions are and you are back in the situation on April 1.

sox1970
08-04-2011, 12:57 PM
Where the Sox as an organization have really failed is in trying to eliminate variables to see what the problem really is. And you can't do that by standing pat and hoping against hope that things change and the team will start playing a lot better.

If the problem is inconsistent hitting, then Greg Walker must go. That is step one.
If that does not work, then it may be motivation of the players, as Ozzie can't get anyone or everyone to maximize their potential and always under perform. Fire Ozzie is step two.
If none of those two work, then it is the players, and that is all KW's fault. Fire him. Step three.

By doing nothing all year long, you go into the off season having no idea where the problems lie and what the potential solutions are and you are back in the situation on April 1.

I have the steps in the opposite order.

Kenny is the architect of this team. He's the first to go. If for nothing else, this team may have to take a step back over the next couple years, and that's not Kenny's style to begin with. So you let Rick Hahn have a crack at it, and see if he can build a better organization from the ground up.

Then you let him hire his own manager, and let that manager hire his own coaching staff--and hopefully that would mean Cora, Baines, Walker would be gone. Maybe they can keep Cooper because I do believe he is a great pitching coach, but if they lose him because of getting a new manager, that's just the way it is.

This team has to change. I just hope Reinsdorf has come to that realization.

Goose
08-04-2011, 01:02 PM
Here is my take:

A cancer has infected and spread throughout this team and organization. It has been repeated ad nauseum on these boards about Ozzie and Kenny. The way they are operating now is like holding the opposite ends of a magnet next to each other…as much as you try and try, they will never come together. KW said, what, a week ago, that he does not care if a player makes $400,000 or $4,000,000 – the best players need to be on the field to be given the best chance to win. What does Ozzie do? He trots out Rios after a short stint on the bench. This is going directly against what KW said he wanted to do. It is not that KW or Ozzie are bad at their jobs, it is that KW and Ozzie cannot do their jobs together. They are poison in the well, and everyone has been taking drinks. That poison has spread to the players who, in turn, say “**** it” and not try. THEY are no longer accountable because they are not MADE to be accountable. You can see it all the way to the TV booth. Hawk has been enabling this team all season (I know it goes back more than that), and NOTHING is the player’s fault. It is always the ump (“where was that one”, “I guess that pitch was outside”, “That is B.S!”), some sort of misfortune (“He just missed it!”), or otherwise some outside force making the players play below their capabilities. When it gets this bad, there is no salvaging the pieces.

It is sick, and I am with most everyone else on here that says that this thing needs to be gutted from top to bottom. Remove all of the cancer to give yourself the best shot at it not coming back. Leave a little, and it will assuredly return.

russ99
08-04-2011, 01:03 PM
This is the problem. Every team Ozzie has managed since 2006 has under performed.

Every team since 2006 is what it is, by playing the games on the field.

So many fans drooled at Dunn's homer total the last 5 years this offseason and ignored the sub-.250 averages that went with them.

Rios played the same act he's pulling this season in Toronto.

Sure, you can assume the manager can have some input on how successful a player is, but those guys are who they are.

Adam Dunn and Alex Rios won't mystically morph into Albert Pujols clones because of the manager.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 01:05 PM
Every team since 2006 is what it is, by playing the games on the field.

So many fans drooled at Dunn's homer total the last 3 years this offseason and ignored the sub-.250 average that went with them.

Rios played the same act he's pulling this season in Toronto.

Sure, you can assume the manager can have some input on how successful a player is, but those guys are who they are.

Adam Dunn and Alex Rios won't mystically morph into Albert Pujols clones because of the manager.

I have yet to see you answer *any* legit questions about pre-game and in-game strategic decisions Ozzie makes. Probably because even to his most ardent of supporters, they are indefensible.

Farmer and DJ's disgust at the Sox' defensive positioning in the first inning yesterday was great. I wish I could take what they said and type it out verbatim.

russ99
08-04-2011, 01:13 PM
I have yet to see you answer *any* legit questions about pre-game and in-game strategic decisions Ozzie makes. Probably because even to his most ardent of supporters, they are indefensible.

Farmer and DJ's disgust at the Sox' defensive positioning in the first inning yesterday was great. I wish I could take what they said and type it out verbatim.

Nice response that has nothing to do with what I posted. I've so had enough of this personal calling out.

So, shoot. What legit questions are we going with here?


The constant cry for Viciedo to "save our season"?
The whining about Dunn and Rios' places in the order, which make zero difference if they don't hit?
(BTW - where was the crying about Thome and Dye's batting order places during their slumps?)
The inane call for benching Dunn and Rios for long periods of time with no MLB-quality replacements
The hatred of bunting and the bitching about playing for one run?
The idea that the Sox should score all their runs on homers?
That all starters need to be coddled and yanked at 75 pitches and nobody can work through a jam?

Really legit questions here.

If you have a philosophical difference with a Ozzie's managing style - which hasn't changed since he was hired here BTW, fine, say so. But so many just assume he's an idiot, a clown or trying to lose.

Boondock Saint
08-04-2011, 01:29 PM
The constant cry for Viciedo to "save our season"?
The whining about Dunn and Rios' places in the order, which make zero difference if they don't hit?
(BTW - where was the crying about Thome and Dye's batting order places during their slumps?)
The inane call for benching Dunn and Rios for long periods of time with no MLB-quality replacements
The hatred of bunting and the bitching about playing for one run?
The idea that the Sox should score all their runs on homers?
That all starters need to be coddled and yanked at 75 pitches and nobody can work through a jam?

Damn, that's the best hyperbole/bull****/spin I've ever read. I think I might legitimately have an aneurysm.

DirtySox
08-04-2011, 01:32 PM
Will Russ join Ozzie in taking his talents to South Beach? Stay tuned to find out.

captain54
08-04-2011, 01:41 PM
When things aren't going well, Ozzie is lost. The other thing about him is his total inability to motivate/demand results from players with security. The Yankees and Red Soc have shown how this works. You can have fully vested veterans with no trade clauses and still hold an organizational structure that demands excellence. Obviously the Sox have been unable to do this, and JR/KW are at fault for not understanding their manager's weakness in this department.

.

Yet you have Konerko, who's had security yet still produces despite the circus around him.

Not only does Ozzie seem lost, the whole organization seems like its drowning in quicksand. Aaron Rowand's been gone since the end of 05' and we still can't find a center fielder, almost 6yrs later. We've plugged Thome into the DH spot for while, then that spiraled into a nightmare. Can't get the offense going for long stretches and when we do the pitching goes down the tubes.

The big difference between the Sox and the Yankees/Red Sox is, the ownership in those two cities understand that the fanbase will not settle for mediocrity whereas here in Chicago the ownership will try to "sell" the
ballpark experience and then blame the fans when the seats are empty for not supporting the team.

captain54
08-04-2011, 01:46 PM
The Sox may not be the single most talented team in baseball (and obviously neither was the 2005 team), but there is more than enough talent on this roster to make a deep playoff run.

the Sox don't even have the talent to get to .500... Please stop the "very talented team" crap or I will lose my mind.

russ99
08-04-2011, 01:49 PM
Will Russ join Ozzie in taking his talents to South Beach? Stay tuned to find out.

Hell no. But if he wins a title there while we're mired in another run of Jerry's cut payroll/go young seasons, I won't be surprised. Be careful what you wish for.

soltrain21
08-04-2011, 01:52 PM
Hell no. But if he wins a title there while we're mired in another run of Jerry's cut payroll/go young seasons, I won't be surprised. Be careful what you wish for.

Yeah, those Marlins are pretty big spenders and never "cut payroll/go young."

EYE ROLL.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 02:06 PM
Damn, that's the best hyperbole/bull****/spin I've ever read. I think I might legitimately have an aneurysm.

No kidding.

russ, you didn't bring up one legit issue outside of batting order and continuing to play Dunn/Rios. Oh, bunting, too. But you spun them with such hyperbole that it makes me wonder whether you actually grasp what the other side is saying at all.

Again, it doesn't surprise me as this is what the level of discourse is generally in this country - no one is able to argue gray area. Positions somehow are not understood unless they are at the furthest extreme on the spectrum possible. It's sad.
/hijack

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 02:14 PM
the Sox don't even have the talent to get to .500... Please stop the "very talented team" crap or I will lose my mind.Like I said, it is much easier and involves no critical thinking to say "the team sucks becuase we have no talent." You are free to keep your head in the sand.

asindc
08-04-2011, 02:27 PM
the Sox don't even have the talent to get to .500... Please stop the "very talented team" crap or I will lose my mind.

Talent is not synonymous with Performance.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 02:43 PM
Talent is not synonymous with Performance.

Brian Anderson must have been the most talented player ever.

central44
08-04-2011, 03:17 PM
Nice response that has nothing to do with what I posted. I've so had enough of this personal calling out.



The constant cry for Viciedo to "save our season"?

Nobody expects that. It's just hard to imagine he could be worse than Dunn, who is KILLING the Sox right now.


The whining about Dunn and Rios' places in the order, which make zero difference if they don't hit?
(BTW - where was the crying about Thome and Dye's batting order places during their slumps?)

Neither of them ever had a historically bad season. Your best hitters should be in the RBI producing situations, and these guys tend to kill whatever rallies the Sox might have.


The inane call for benching Dunn and Rios for long periods of time with no MLB-quality replacements

Dunn and Rios have not been MLB-quality players this year. The thinking is that any MLB-ready player in the minors will probably be at least as good--but due to the historically bad nature of their seasons, will almost certainly be somewhat better.


The hatred of bunting and the bitching about playing for one run?

Nobody has a problem with this--the problem is that the Sox don't have the personnel to play this way, which Ozzie refuses to acknowledge.



The idea that the Sox should score all their runs on homers?

I don't think anyone wants this. There has to be a middle ground between playing for one run at a time and waiting for HRs.


That all starters need to be coddled and yanked at 75 pitches and nobody can work through a jam?

Peavy and Humber have demonstrated that when they lose it, they lose it fast. People just want Ozzie to acknowledge this and be prepared in case these guys do run out of steam, yet he's always caught off guard when it does--which on several occasions, has led to big innings for the opposition and has cost the Sox games.

Ozzie admitted himself that he doesn't pay attention to stats and things of that nature, and that Joey Cora does it for him. Well...awesome.




Just my thoughts to the points because I think they're all pretty valid :/

Ozzie was good at one point. He's just so stubborn and refuses to adapt. I think the World Series gave him a big head and he's now convinced he's always right, which leads to problems.

captain54
08-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Like I said, it is much easier and involves no critical thinking to say "the team sucks becuase we have no talent." You are free to keep your head in the sand.

a more accurate statement would be "the talent is over-rated and the team is mediocre"

captain54
08-04-2011, 03:23 PM
Talent is not synonymous with Performance.

We're four months into the 2011 season, and the "performance" against the rest of league has shown that the "talent' is mediocre

the games aren't played on paper my friend, they're played on the field.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 03:43 PM
a more accurate statement would be "the talent is over-rated and the team is mediocre"No. Once again- taking the easy way out. An 88 win team which improves its bullpen and adds an impact power bat at DH doesn't becomes mediocre and untalented.

24thStFan
08-04-2011, 03:43 PM
a more accurate statement would be "the talent is over-rated and the team is mediocre"

This is correct. Other than solid starting pitching, a serviceable bullpen, Paulie, TCM, and TCQ (sometimes), the talent at every other position needs to be upgraded.

asindc
08-04-2011, 03:44 PM
We're four months into the 2011 season, and the "performance" against the rest of league has shown that the "talent' is mediocre

the games aren't played on paper my friend, they're played on the field.

You are still talking about performance, unless you believe that Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Quentin, Thornton, and others have played at or close to their maximum talent level. If so, why would you be upset with their performances as players?

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 03:54 PM
We're four months into the 2011 season, and the "performance" against the rest of league has shown that the "talent' is mediocre

the games aren't played on paper my friend, they're played on the field.By that "your performance is your talent" reasoning, the Sox should have traded Konerko after his horrbile 2003 season. Or after his horrible 2008 season. Clearly he isn't talented if he could have years that bad. I guess every other season he has been overrated, right?

ktssox
08-04-2011, 03:57 PM
That was always my feeling on it. Ozzie wants 9 Juan Pierres. He was instead given a power hitter for DH. So now that the acquisition is failing he's going to continue to put him out there as a sort of "see I told you so" moment.

I kind of felt like Kenny did that to Ozzie last year. Ozzie wanted a team of movable pieces, with no true DH. Kenny gave him sub-par pieces, so he could have his own "see I told you so" moment - proving to Ozzie and everyone else that we needed a true power hitting DH. But perhaps I'm biased because I actually thought it was a great idea that Kenny gave no chance to actually work.

Aesero
08-04-2011, 04:06 PM
I kind of felt like Kenny did that to Ozzie last year. Ozzie wanted a team of movable pieces, with no true DH. Kenny gave him sub-par pieces, so he could have his own "see I told you so" moment - proving to Ozzie and everyone else that we needed a true power hitting DH. But perhaps I'm biased because I actually thought it was a great idea that Kenny gave no chance to actually work.

Kenny tried to get a bat before the trade deadline but got burned with Edwin Jackson. Unlike Ozzie's constant "I have no place to play him everyday" about Viciedo and "He makes too much money to not play" KW at least tried to improve the team.

ktssox
08-04-2011, 04:39 PM
Kenny tried to get a bat before the trade deadline but got burned with Edwin Jackson. Unlike Ozzie's constant "I have no place to play him everyday" about Viciedo and "He makes too much money to not play" KW at least tried to improve the team.

But see, that's the thing - he didn't give Ozzie the players needed to execute the plan at the start of the season. So, then at the deadline he can say, "Well gee, Oz, your way just didn't didn't work" and go out and get a power hitting strikeout king to fill the hole. I think wassagstdu explains it perfectly:

I'm with Ozzie. And don't start with Dewayne Wise and Darrin Ersted or Mark Kotsay because I will demolish your argument with Adam Dunn. When KW goes Ozzie's way it is always on the CHEAP, but for a cardboard cutout of a player like Dunn he goes ALL IN.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 04:48 PM
But see, that's the thing - he didn't give Ozzie the players needed to execute the plan at the start of the season. So, then at the deadline he can say, "Well gee, Oz, your way just didn't didn't work" and go out and get a power hitting strikeout king to fill the hole. I think wassagstdu explains it perfectly:

It still doesn't explain why Ozzie insists on putting the square pegs into round bunting holes.

central44
08-04-2011, 05:27 PM
Personally--and this is just my opinion, feel free to disagree--I dont think Ozzie and KW are intentionally trying to hurt the team to prove their way is right.

KW's job is to put the best team possible together. Ozzie's job is to take that team and win with it by playing the best players and putting everyone in the best possible position to succeed.

I don't think you can fault KW for acquiring a 40 HR, 100 RBI caliber player to upgrade a position that had previously been a black hole. Nobody could have foreseen Dunn's struggles.

I think you can fault Ozzie for turning away a clearly superior player (Thome) because he didn't fit into Ozzie's rotating DH system. How many MLB caliber starters are going to be willing to platoon and DH half the time, anyway? It's not like KW had a lot of players to choose from, and if defense is such an issue then you're still likely to end up with someone spending time as DH less for their hitting ability, and more because they are able to play the field, too--likely making them a downgrade from Thome.

I think Ozzie is just wrong here. For me, personally, I don't care about my DH's fielding ability. I want them to be good hitters. Thome was capable of being a threat behind Konerko, TCQ, whoever.

I dont think he's trying to hurt the team though. I think he's just wrong. And I think his stubbornness *IS* hurting the team, a lot.

russ99
08-04-2011, 06:06 PM
No kidding.

russ, you didn't bring up one legit issue outside of batting order and continuing to play Dunn/Rios. Oh, bunting, too. But you spun them with such hyperbole that it makes me wonder whether you actually grasp what the other side is saying at all.

Again, it doesn't surprise me as this is what the level of discourse is generally in this country - no one is able to argue gray area. Positions somehow are not understood unless they are at the furthest extreme on the spectrum possible. It's sad.
/hijack

I was perfectly willing to discuss gray area months ago, but the exponential daily litany of gripes, the rush to call Ozzie an idiot on even the smallest thing not going as expected coupled with the "Ozapologist" label has me down on the concept.

It's to the point where its not worth posting on the matter anymore.

I hope the Sox can get on a tear so we can talk about baseball without all the rage again.

Tragg
08-04-2011, 06:45 PM
No. Once again- taking the easy way out. An 88 win team which improves its bullpen and adds an impact power bat at DH doesn't becomes mediocre and untalented.

Our bullpen is improved but it didn't figure to be...we lost our closer, we lost our set up man, and we replaced only the set up man. Now what happened was major improvement from a young player Santos.
By the same token, we were counting on a lot of offensive players on the declining side of their career not to get worse...and one of them was that impact bat. Some of them got worse. Further, we didn't get improvement from the couple of young players we had on offense. None should be a major surprise.
In starting pitching, about what we expected....certainly more from Humber than expected; Peavy? didn't really expect much anyway.
All in all, if things had gone really well, at best we'd be about where Detroit is, and that is a bit of a stretch.

captain54
08-04-2011, 07:24 PM
. If so, why would you be upset with their performances as players?

I'm not "upset" with anything White Sox anymore.... becoming more and more indifferent, at least this year, and at least until the organization is
is revamped, top to bottom.

captain54
08-04-2011, 07:26 PM
By that "your performance is your talent" reasoning, the Sox should have traded Konerko after his horrbile 2003 season. Or after his horrible 2008 season. Clearly he isn't talented if he could have years that bad. I guess every other season he has been overrated, right?

Unfortunately, they don't have two separate sets of standings, one for "talent" and one for "performance".. last I checked, the "performance" standings are the only ones that count.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 09:10 PM
Unfortunately, they don't have two separate sets of standings, one for "talent" and one for "performance".. last I checked, the "performance" standings are the only ones that count.Strawmen are cool.

asindc
08-04-2011, 09:15 PM
Unfortunately, they don't have two separate sets of standings, one for "talent" and one for "performance".. last I checked, the "performance" standings are the only ones that count.

That's true, but that's not the issue we've been discussing.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 09:21 PM
Our bullpen is improved but it didn't figure to be...we lost our closer, we lost our set up man, and we replaced only the set up man. Now what happened was major improvement from a young player Santos.
By the same token, we were counting on a lot of offensive players on the declining side of their career not to get worse...and one of them was that impact bat. Some of them got worse. Further, we didn't get improvement from the couple of young players we had on offense. None should be a major surprise.
In starting pitching, about what we expected....certainly more from Humber than expected; Peavy? didn't really expect much anyway.
All in all, if things had gone really well, at best we'd be about where Detroit is, and that is a bit of a stretch.Dunn is not on the downside of his career - he is in his prime. Quentin, Rios and Ramirez are in or entering their primes, and we have seen little to no improvement from them this year. Rios should have at very least given the Sox what he did last year. They should have absolutely expected Beckham to improve, if not for incompetent coaching. The only hitters on the downside of their careers the Sox counted on (as regulars) are Pierre (pretty good after terrible start) AJ (pretty good all year) and Konerko (great).

And no, if everything had gone as expected (even accounting for Peavy's extended recovery time) the Sox would be at least five games up on the Tigers. You can't possibly argue that if Dunn was giving the Sox .245/38/97 and Rios was giving .276/16/76 the Sox would be an average team like Detroit. If Dunn and Rios were duplicating their previous career LOWS the Sox would be in first place.

captain54
08-04-2011, 09:32 PM
That's true, but that's not the issue we've been discussing.

It's totally the issue....some of you keep hammering that this team is talented and they're just underperforming, so we should all relax...The
GM's fine, Ozzie's fine, JR's fine, Walker's fine, Roger Bossard's fine, the
parking guys fine, the churros guy is fine, it's the damn players and if
they would only perform.

No accountability for anyone in the organization... let's just throw the players under the bus ..

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 09:36 PM
It's totally the issue....some of you keep hammering that this team is talented and they're just underperforming, so we should all relax...The
GM's fine, Ozzie's fine, JR's fine, Walker's fine, Roger Bossard's fine, the
parking guys fine, the churros guy is fine, it's the damn players and if
they would only perform.

No accountability for anyone in the organization... let's just throw the players under the bus ..That isn't what I am arguing at all. I don't think anyone outside of russ believes Ozzie isn't at least partialy responsible for this team's poor performance. Very few people outside of DickAllen15 think Greg Walker isn't an atrocious hitting coach who is largely responsible for the hitters' poor approach and struggles. The players are responsible for their failures, but Ozzie and Walker should have been fired this year.

asindc
08-04-2011, 09:42 PM
It's totally the issue....some of you keep hammering that this team is talented and they're just underperforming, so we should all relax...The
GM's fine, Ozzie's fine, JR's fine, Walker's fine, Roger Bossard's fine, the
parking guys fine, the churros guy is fine, it's the damn players and if
they would only perform.

No accountability for anyone in the organization... let's just throw the players under the bus ..

No one has said any of the things in bold. Acknowledging the talent on this club is part of why many fans want to hold the GM and/or the Manager accountable. By your definition of talent, Bret Saberhagen was exceptionally talented in 1985, of average talent in 1986, exceptionally talented again in 1987, of average talent again in 1988, and then exceptionally talented once again in 1989.

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that Dunn, Rios, Beckham, and others are more talented than their performance this year. It is not inconsistent with wanting changes to be made with team management. Besides, we should not blame players when they perform poorly.

DickAllen72
08-04-2011, 09:49 PM
Ozzie should be fired tonight. Hell, the usual "new manager bounce" most teams get when switching managers might be enough to put the Sox in front of this division.

captain54
08-04-2011, 09:58 PM
Seriously, there is nothing wrong with recognizing that Dunn, Rios, Beckham, and others are more talented than their performance this year. .

I recognize that these players are talented. I also recognize that they could turn it around...

Bottom line, if collectively a group of talented players don't get the job done they go home in October..

So I'm not diminishing talent, I pointing out that in the end it really doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.

balke
08-04-2011, 10:08 PM
Is it possible Ozzie blames this mess of a team on Kenny Williams. It kind of makes sense and thats why he is being stubborn and continuing to play Dunn and Rios. Kind of shoving it in KW's face to prove to JR this is not his kind of team?


You know I was thinking about this the past couple days.

Ozzie wants to play Ozzieball. He's asked for defense speed bunts and baseball players. And although Kenny got him some of these guys here and there - there are signings like Rios and Dunn. The athlete and the defensively useless "power lefty". He actually picked about the worst defensive player in baseball besides Soriano.

Yes Dunn is a DH - but Ozzie would be happy to use DH as a rest position for guys that can play defense. Yes Kotsay was bad - but Everett seemed to be good.

I don't know - I actually am a huge KW supporter but I'm pretty sick of the football players and athlete signings. I'd like to see some baseball players - that's what makes baseball so special. You don't need to be the best athlete on the field - you need to know how to play the game.

balke
08-04-2011, 10:17 PM
I recognize that these players are talented. I also recognize that they could turn it around...

Bottom line, if collectively a group of talented players don't get the job done they go home in October..

So I'm not diminishing talent, I pointing out that in the end it really doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.


In essence it's a beautiful and simple game. One guy throws it and the other guy hits it. So, as coordinated and talented and fast as you may be - it really comes down to did you hit the ball? Did you throw the ball past the other guy?

There are baseball players and there are athletes. Right now this team is a little short on baseball players. That's not to say they don't have some great ones - but everytime I hear about the "talent" now it just upsets me. Not because it's being wasted - but because there was so much blind faith put into the talent.

DSpivack
08-05-2011, 01:32 AM
Strawmen are cool.

"If I only had a brain..."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YwrLZ9Uc_3w/THvHK03sEmI/AAAAAAAACcg/ZvH3L3_ZdXY/s320/scarecrow_oz.gif

Dan H
08-05-2011, 05:17 AM
No. Once again- taking the easy way out. An 88 win team which improves its bullpen and adds an impact power bat at DH doesn't becomes mediocre and untalented.

Unless that DH is hitting in the .160's in August, the CF completely tanks it and your base stealer can't steal bases anymore.

The 88 wins came last year and that was mostly because they played over the heads for one month. For the rest of the season, they were under .500 where they have spent a great deal of time since the middle of '06.

It isn't that this team doesn't have any talent. It is that the sum of the talent doesn't add to a playoff team. This team just went 5-12 during in two important home stands. You're going to tell me that's not mediocre?

A. Cavatica
08-05-2011, 05:53 AM
This team just went 5-12 during in two important home stands. You're going to tell me that's not mediocre?

8-9 would be mediocre. 5-12 is just plain awful.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 09:07 AM
Unless that DH is hitting in the .160's in August, the CF completely tanks it and your base stealer can't steal bases anymore.

The 88 wins came last year and that was mostly because they played over the heads for one month. For the rest of the season, they were under .500 where they have spent a great deal of time since the middle of '06.

It isn't that this team doesn't have any talent. It is that the sum of the talent doesn't add to a playoff team. This team just went 5-12 during in two important home stands. You're going to tell me that's not mediocre?Read my quote again. You think an 88 win team last year BECOMES untalented by adding talent which struggles? How can subtracting no key parts and adding a talented player like Dunn possibly make the Sox less talented? It doesn't make sense.

And no, the sum of the talent "doesn't equal a playoff team" when your talented, 40 homer/100 RBI DH (who filled a huge whole in the lineup) has one of the worst seasons by any player ever. Dunn is hitting .223 below his previous career low OPS and .050 under his previous career low batting average. Alex Rios is hitting .150 under his previous career low OPS and .040 below his previous career low batting average. How hard is it for people to understand? NOBODY could have anticipated these two players, or any two players who had an ounce of talent, would struggle this bad for this long. If these guys were duplicating their previous career lows, not even having average seasons for them, the Sox would be in first place.

asindc
08-05-2011, 09:23 AM
Unless that DH is hitting in the .160's in August, the CF completely tanks it and your base stealer can't steal bases anymore.

The 88 wins came last year and that was mostly because they played over the heads for one month. For the rest of the season, they were under .500 where they have spent a great deal of time since the middle of '06.

It isn't that this team doesn't have any talent. It is that the sum of the talent doesn't add to a playoff team. This team just went 5-12 during in two important home stands. You're going to tell me that's not mediocre?

Once again (with feeling), you are speaking of perfomance, not talent. My Bret Saberhagen example stands.

Read my quote again. You think an 88 win team last year BECOMES untalented by adding talent which struggles? How can subtracting no key parts and adding a talented player like Dunn possibly make the Sox less talented? It doesn't make sense.

And no, the sum of the talent "doesn't equal a playoff team" when your talented, 40 homer/100 RBI DH (who filled a huge whole in the lineup) has one of the worst seasons by any player ever. Dunn is hitting .223 below his previous career low OPS and .050 under his previous career low batting average. Alex Rios is hitting .150 under his previous career low OPS and .040 below his previous career low batting average. How hard is it for people to understand? NOBODY could have anticipated these two players, or any two players who had an ounce of talent, would struggle this bad for this long. If these guys were duplicating their previous career lows, not even having average seasons for them, the Sox would be in first place.

This. In fact, if any fan is of the mindset that Ozzie needs to be fired, one of the indictments against him is that he has been given enough talent to have won the division at least three times since 2005, yet has had his team consistently underachieve.

kaufsox
08-05-2011, 09:24 AM
Like I said, it is much easier and involves no critical thinking to say "the team sucks becuase we have no talent." You are free to keep your head in the sand.

Where is all of this talent on paper? The only above average player on this team is Konerko, offensively anyway. Pitching is a little better, but not much. None of the starters are lights out, number 1 guys and bullpens no matter what team are a crap shoot year after year. This year the Sox pen has been pretty good, but it could easily be a nightmare next year.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 09:34 AM
Where is all of this talent on paper? The only above average player on this team is Konerko, offensively anyway. Pitching is a little better, but not much. None of the starters are lights out, number 1 guys and bullpens no matter what team are a crap shoot year after year. This year the Sox pen has been pretty good, but it could easily be a nightmare next year.Adam Dunn - extremely talented power hitter, takes lots of walks, good for 40 homers and 100 RBI per year.

Alex Rios - five tool talent who has never put it together. Still, until this year he has provided excellent defense and been a hell of a lot better than this, even in his previous worst year.

Carlos Quentin - extremely talented, will put up huge numbers when healthy. After a successful 2008, Greg Walker changed his batting stance. It has changed several times since then. He is now a twitchy, unpatient and streaky hitter who dissapears for weeks at a time.

Alexei Ramirez - one of the most talented SS in baseball. He has had his head up his ass most of the season. Hasn't taken steps in his game like he should have.

AJ Pierzynski - not great by any means, but still a pretty solid hitter as a catcher.

Gordon Beckham - another Walker frankenstein, swinging at the first pitch and having a new batting stance every week. He was molded from a patient hitter who would go the other way into an unpatient pull hitter who takes the first half of the season off before going on a streak to get his numbers close to respectable. He is well on his way to being ruined.

Boondock Saint
08-05-2011, 10:08 AM
Read my quote again. You think an 88 win team last year BECOMES untalented by adding talent which struggles? How can subtracting no key parts and adding a talented player like Dunn possibly make the Sox less talented? It doesn't make sense.

And no, the sum of the talent "doesn't equal a playoff team" when your talented, 40 homer/100 RBI DH (who filled a huge whole in the lineup) has one of the worst seasons by any player ever. Dunn is hitting .223 below his previous career low OPS and .050 under his previous career low batting average. Alex Rios is hitting .150 under his previous career low OPS and .040 below his previous career low batting average. How hard is it for people to understand? NOBODY could have anticipated these two players, or any two players who had an ounce of talent, would struggle this bad for this long. If these guys were duplicating their previous career lows, not even having average seasons for them, the Sox would be in first place.

I can't even understand how people are struggling to grasp this. You've put it in such simple terms that a 3 year old could understand it.

Fisk Fan
08-05-2011, 10:16 AM
In essence it's a beautiful and simple game. One guy throws it and the other guy hits it. So, as coordinated and talented and fast as you may be - it really comes down to did you hit the ball? Did you throw the ball past the other guy?

There are baseball players and there are athletes. Right now this team is a little short on baseball players. That's not to say they don't have some great ones - but everytime I hear about the "talent" now it just upsets me. Not because it's being wasted - but because there was so much blind faith put into the talent.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KuecZ46khKM/TWGPZbYELNI/AAAAAAAAAD8/CWrn6WEh_r0/s200/bull-durham-20100818053351447_640w.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-KuecZ46khKM/TWGPZbYELNI/AAAAAAAAAD8/CWrn6WEh_r0/s1600/bull-durham-20100818053351447_640w.jpg)

"What's our record, Larry? "
"Eight and sixteen."
"Eight... and sixteen. How'd we ever win eight? "
"It's a miracle."
"It's a miracle. This... is a simple game. You throw the ball. You hit the ball. You catch the ball. "

kittle42
08-05-2011, 10:44 AM
I can't even understand how people are struggling to grasp this. You've put it in such simple terms that a 3 year old could understand it.

Agreed. It was a great post. You can question the Rios acquisition because of the contract and the fact that he has historically been a very up and down player, but the Dunn signing was a no-brainer. These guys perform to their worst previous career levels, and we are talking about at least a few games lead in this division right now.

SI1020
08-05-2011, 10:54 AM
Teams and players aren't static. So what if they won 88 games last year. Last year's 88 game winner can be this year's 68 game winner with the same players. As for the Sox, I really don't see that much extraordinary talent. Pierre never was that great and he is now obviously on the down slide. There were signs in Toronto that Rios was a major headcase and that has proven to be true. Quentin, a favorite of mine is maddeningly streaky and inconsistent, and though improved will never be a big plus in the field. I don't think Morel can hit well enough to stick around long, but I've not given up hope on him. Alexei, now there is lots of flash, panache, and raw talent but he doesn't appear to have the instincts and drive of a winner. I can't even talk about Beckham. What the Sox have done to him is criminal, and yes I know he does have talent. Paulie is an all time Sox great and icon but he can't last forever. Ditto to a lesser degree for AJ. Dunn is an exposed one trick pony. The game has passed his kind by, so whopee ding dong if he hits .220-.240 next year. I won't even get into the pitching, this is getting kind of long and some dislike this format. In short, not that great of a team in the best of circumstances.

ShooterMcGavin
08-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Is 2011 going to be another Guillen-managed, second-half fade? Since the All-Star break, the Sox are 8-10.

kittle42
08-05-2011, 11:44 AM
Is 2011 going to be another Guillen-managed, second-half fade? Since the All-Star break, the Sox are 8-10.

Nah, the fade started the third week of April this year.

Dan H
08-05-2011, 12:40 PM
Once again (with feeling), you are speaking of perfomance, not talent. My Bret Saberhagen example stands.


This. In fact, if any fan is of the mindset that Ozzie needs to be fired, one of the indictments against him is that he has been given enough talent to have won the division at least three times since 2005, yet has had his team consistently underachieve.

I think fans are giving this team too much credit. They think if we change field management, the team will improve. I think that is true to an extent. But performance is still tied to talent and I don't think some players will improve with the change. Change has to come in many forms with this club. First the denial must stop. This is not a good team. Then change the manager. Then see how the roster can be changed.

asindc
08-05-2011, 12:43 PM
I think fans are giving this team too much credit. They think if we change field management, the team will improve. I think that is true to an extent. But performance is still tied to talent and I don't think some players will improve with the change. Change has to come in many forms with this club. First the denial must stop. This is not a good team. Then change the manager. Then see how the roster can be changed.

To some extent that is true, bu then how do you explain Bret Saberhagen or Jose Contreras or Kenny Rogers, for instance? This team might not be the best collective roster to get the job done, but the talent is there relative to the rest of the division.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 12:50 PM
I think fans are giving this team too much credit. They think if we change field management, the team will improve. I think that is true to an extent. But performance is still tied to talent and I don't think some players will improve with the change. Change has to come in many forms with this club. First the denial must stop. This is not a good team. Then change the manager. Then see how the roster can be changed.So you think Adam Dunn should have been expected to, and will, hit .170 for the rest of his Sox career? You think Alex Rios is going to duplicate this horrendous season, including bad defense when he is normally exceptional? Those players will improve next year whether or not there is change. However, change would help Ramirez and Quentin develop into complete hitters instead of the slump-prone Walker drones they have become. Changing management should see Beckham become a very goot player instead continuing to have Walker torpedo his future with the batting stance du jour. When the biggest problem this franchise has had over the past five years is hitting approach, I can't see how changing the guy who sets that won't help. When the second biggest problem over the last five years has been the Sox being scared to death of playing the Twins, I don't see how changing the guy who sets that tone in the clubhouse won't help change that.

kaufsox
08-05-2011, 12:59 PM
Adam Dunn - extremely talented power hitter, takes lots of walks, good for 40 homers and 100 RBI per year.

Alex Rios - five tool talent who has never put it together. Still, until this year he has provided excellent defense and been a hell of a lot better than this, even in his previous worst year.

Carlos Quentin - extremely talented, will put up huge numbers when healthy. After a successful 2008, Greg Walker changed his batting stance. It has changed several times since then. He is now a twitchy, unpatient and streaky hitter who dissapears for weeks at a time.

Alexei Ramirez - one of the most talented SS in baseball. He has had his head up his ass most of the season. Hasn't taken steps in his game like he should have.

AJ Pierzynski - not great by any means, but still a pretty solid hitter as a catcher.

Gordon Beckham - another Walker frankenstein, swinging at the first pitch and having a new batting stance every week. He was molded from a patient hitter who would go the other way into an unpatient pull hitter who takes the first half of the season off before going on a streak to get his numbers close to respectable. He is well on his way to being ruined.

I will give you Alexei, my omission, but everyone on that list is not Very Talented. You can blame Walker all you like, but if Quentin and Beckham were as good as you seem to think, they would have produced much more. One coach is not to blame for all of their woes. How does a coach produce streakiness? or slow starts? that's says more about their talent than Walker's ability as a coach. Rios has been bad more than he has been good throughout his career with the Sox, .246 BA, .292 OBP, .672 OPS. Not exactly someone to build a playoff team around.

JC456
08-05-2011, 01:04 PM
Ok, so bring up Vicado and let him play, let some of these non talented players go. The likes of Vicado isn't going to eat at anyone's wallet. If Pierre left wouldn't bother me at all. The question has been who would lead off then, I don't care someone has to don't they to start an inning? That is on management and I think management thinks they are better than the sum of the team and for that they all need to go! Vicado, that's all the fans wanted to see come up because of how he was hitting in the minors. It is now going on the second week of August and still no Vicado! Again, that's on management for not putting out on the field the best team that could be available.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 01:08 PM
I will give you Alexei, my omission, but everyone on that list is not Very Talented. You can blame Walker all you like, but if Quentin and Beckham were as good as you seem to think, they would have produced much more. One coach is not to blame for all of their woes. How does a coach produce streakiness? or slow starts? that's says more about their talent than Walker's ability as a coach. Rios has been bad more than he has been good throughout his career with the Sox, .246 BA, .292 OBP, .672 OPS. Not exactly someone to build a playoff team around.First off, arguing that a young player like Gordon, who was in college four years ago, should do well independent of the hitting coach is silly. Quentin and Beckham are going to the plate with what Walker gives them. He is the reason they can't make adjustments at the plate. He is the reason they come out with new batting stances every few weeks. When an entire team can hit soft-tossers or an entire team can't hit lefties (when they are mostly righthanded, none the less), goes into a month-long slump simultaneously, you have to look at the man who imparts their philosophy, the guy who wants them being aggressive and not taking walks. And if Alex Rios was hitting .249/.292/.672 this year, the Sox would be in first place right now. As bad as that line is, it puts into perspective how horrible and how much of an abberation his season has been.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 01:10 PM
Ok, so bring up Vicado and let him play, let some of these non talented players go. The likes of Vicado isn't going to eat at anyone's wallet. If Pierre left wouldn't bother me at all. The question has been who would lead off then, I don't care someone has to don't they to start an inning? That is on management and I think management thinks they are better than the sum of the team and for that they all need to go! Vicado, that's all the fans wanted to see come up because of how he was hitting in the minors. It is now going on the second week of August and still no Vicado! Again, that's on management for not putting out on the field the best team that could be available.Who is this Vicado fellow you speak of?

pudge
08-05-2011, 01:17 PM
Sure. Anything can happen in a short series, and the Yankees are particularly vulnerable, with a terrible rotation outside of Captain Cheeseburger. Facing Garcia and Colon in the playoffs wouldn't scare most teams. The Sox may not be the single most talented team in baseball (and obviously neither was the 2005 team), but there is more than enough talent on this roster to make a deep playoff run.

I'm sorry, but that is delusional. They might sneak past one series, but they would never make a deep playoff run. See 2008.

asindc
08-05-2011, 01:24 PM
I'm sorry, but that is delusional. They might sneak past one series, but they would never make a deep playoff run. See 2008.

2008 is not the best example for your point. Game 163 hampered their ability to prepare for the playoffs. Without it, Javier "I'd rather be on a beach" Vazquez (speaking of talented yet under-performing players) would not have started a game in the ALDS.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 01:26 PM
I'm sorry, but that is delusional. They might sneak past one series, but they would never make a deep playoff run. See 2008.The 2008 team which was missing the AL MVP and had to start its #4 starter in game one of the playoffs? I don't think that team helps your argument. The Sox have an exceptional pitching staff. If they could get into the playoffs they could shut teams down. Shutting down an opposing offense and scoring 3-4 runs could win a lot of playoff games. Obviously, it hasn't worked for the Sox this season, but look at the Giants last year. With the Sox' pitching staff, they would be in any series.

MetroPD
08-05-2011, 01:53 PM
You know I was just thinking more about this situation and what has happened in some of the comments left. I have to be honest and say at first I was all for Ozzie getting the boot and thrown out on the curb. Some of the so called "Ozzie-applogists" have made some great points though. Back in 2005 anyone else recall Ozzie's "small ball" baseball? I certainly do. I recall good timely hitting and not going all for broke with each swing of the bat or even needing to. They were perfectly comfortable to chip away each inning.

Second point in conversation, good stability in starting pitching with a lights out bull pen. The organization has tried to bring that back with recent acquisitions, but it doesn't help when Peavey is consistently hurt and Danks gets little to no run support. Ozzie does not have the tools to complete his tasks. For the past several years we have been relying on homeruns to produce runs. Our so called situational hitters have been an abject failure along with our power hitters sans Konerko (Quentin is coming along now too finally). Our pitching could be better but if we actually put runners in scoring position and would actually bring them home from time to time, it would be a great help. When two big names and so called talents in Rios and Dunn flounder with numbers that would make Kenny Williams look like an all-star, we are in trouble.

central44
08-05-2011, 01:55 PM
I'm sorry, but that is delusional. They might sneak past one series, but they would never make a deep playoff run. See 2008.

There's no way of knowing who's going to be hot and who's going to be cold at a particular point. Once you're in, anything can happen.

And agreed with the people above me--if CQ was healthy, the Sox didn't need Game 163 that year. He carried the team for much of the year and when he was hurt, the team became extremely mediocre, if I recall correctly.

Plug him into the lineup, dont pitch Vasquez...that series could have been different. Maybe not better, but still--it's a crapshoot.

Boondock Saint
08-05-2011, 01:59 PM
You know I was just thinking more about this situation and what has happened in some of the comments left. I have to be honest and say at first I was all for Ozzie getting the boot and thrown out on the curb. Some of the so called "Ozzie-applogists" have made some great points though. Back in 2005 anyone else recall Ozzie's "small ball" baseball? I certainly do. I recall good timely hitting and not going all for broke with each swing of the bat or even needing to. They were perfectly comfortable to chip away each inning.

Second point in conversation, good stability in starting pitching with a lights out bull pen. The organization has tried to bring that back with recent acquisitions, but it doesn't help when Peavey is consistently hurt and Danks gets little to no run support. Ozzie does not have the tools to complete his tasks. For the past several years we have been relying on homeruns to produce runs. Our so called situational hitters have been an abject failure along with our power hitters sans Konerko (Quentin is coming along now too finally). Our pitching could be better but if we actually put runners in scoring position and would actually bring them home from time to time, it would be a great help. When two big names and so called talents in Rios and Dunn flounder with numbers that would make Kenny Williams look like an all-star, we are in trouble.

The Sox hit the 5th most HR's in the league in '05. That team relied on the long ball as much as, if not more than timely hitting, sacrificing and stealing bases.

central44
08-05-2011, 02:03 PM
You know I was just thinking more about this situation and what has happened in some of the comments left. I have to be honest and say at first I was all for Ozzie getting the boot and thrown out on the curb. Some of the so called "Ozzie-applogists" have made some great points though. Back in 2005 anyone else recall Ozzie's "small ball" baseball? I certainly do. I recall good timely hitting and not going all for broke with each swing of the bat or even needing to. They were perfectly comfortable to chip away each inning.

Second point in conversation, good stability in starting pitching with a lights out bull pen. The organization has tried to bring that back with recent acquisitions, but it doesn't help when Peavey is consistently hurt and Danks gets little to no run support. Ozzie does not have the tools to complete his tasks. For the past several years we have been relying on homeruns to produce runs. Our so called situational hitters have been an abject failure along with our power hitters sans Konerko (Quentin is coming along now too finally). Our pitching could be better but if we actually put runners in scoring position and would actually bring them home from time to time, it would be a great help. When two big names and so called talents in Rios and Dunn flounder with numbers that would make Kenny Williams look like an all-star, we are in trouble.

I don't disagree with anything you said, but I think a big part of the issue with Ozzie is his refusal to recognize problems and adjust to them.

Why is Rios always sent out there when De Aza has been a significant upgrade in his short time in the MLB this season? Why can't he find at bats for Viciedo when Dunn is having a historically bad season? KW said to play the guys who will help the team win--yet Ozzie doesn't do it.

As for the part about getting runners into scoring position...well, maybe if this team was capable of taking walks once in awhile, that would happen. I'm not an MLB player and have heard every side of this debate, so I have no idea if firing Walker would make a difference or not. Still, I believe that's Ozzie's call, and Ozzie sticks with him.

kaufsox
08-05-2011, 03:13 PM
First off, arguing that a young player like Gordon, who was in college four years ago, should do well independent of the hitting coach is silly. Quentin and Beckham are going to the plate with what Walker gives them. He is the reason they can't make adjustments at the plate. He is the reason they come out with new batting stances every few weeks. When an entire team can hit soft-tossers or an entire team can't hit lefties (when they are mostly righthanded, none the less), goes into a month-long slump simultaneously, you have to look at the man who imparts their philosophy, the guy who wants them being aggressive and not taking walks. And if Alex Rios was hitting .249/.292/.672 this year, the Sox would be in first place right now. As bad as that line is, it puts into perspective how horrible and how much of an abberation his season has been.

So basically, Greg Walker is to blame for their woes, but when they were successful he had nothing to do with it? He was their coach in 2008 and 2009, but he has corrupted them to this level of ineptitude? Or maybe their not that good, or the league has adjusted to them far more than they have adjusted to the league. Look, I don't care if Walker gets fired tomorrow but the idea that he's somehow able to take in your words, "very talented players" and make them **** just isn't logical. With respect to Rios, if Alex was hitting to his averages as a White Sox, they might be in first place, but if he had those numbers I still wouldn't call him "very talented." This team is not that good, on paper, in the field, or the front office.

kittle42
08-05-2011, 03:42 PM
He was their coach in 2008 and 2009, but he has corrupted them to this level of ineptitude?

The Sox were near the bottom of the league in runs scored per game, BA, and OPS in 2009. So three years of this garbage in a row.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 03:50 PM
So basically, Greg Walker is to blame for their woes, but when they were successful he had nothing to do with it? He was their coach in 2008 and 2009, but he has corrupted them to this level of ineptitude? Or maybe their not that good, or the league has adjusted to them far more than they have adjusted to the league. Look, I don't care if Walker gets fired tomorrow but the idea that he's somehow able to take in your words, "very talented players" and make them **** just isn't logical. With respect to Rios, if Alex was hitting to his averages as a White Sox, they might be in first place, but if he had those numbers I still wouldn't call him "very talented." This team is not that good, on paper, in the field, or the front office.That's silly because talent doesn't equal performance. He is however talented regardless of his performance any given year. As for the rest of your post, Walker is a terrible hitting coach, and I think he tinkers just to show how genius he can be. For example. Juan Uribe was great for the Sox in September 05 through the playoffs. Frank brought in Walt Hrniak to work with Juan and he put a leg kick into his swing. Uribe was hitting the ball well and showing patience (most walks of anyone on the team in the playoffs). Uribe's transformation was so profound that Ozzie was planning to put him in the 2 spot in 2006 and move Iguchi down so he could drive in more runs. Coming into spring training in 06, Walker gave the dreaded "Juan is doing good things, but I think we can change a few things and improve his swing." Sure enough, Uribe was back to the horrible hitter. He went through a myriad of batting stances in his time with the Sox. Quentin would have won the MVP award in 2008 if not for the broken wrist. As successful as he was, we got the dreaded Walker "things to work on" quote in 2009, and Carlos has struggled, changing his batting stance at the advise of Walker several times since then. Beckham had initial success, due in no small part to the hitting approach which has been instilled in him. After struggling to get his footing the first few weeks he was up, Beckham did really well in 2009. Last year comes, there are more things to work on, and Gordon is changing his swing twice a month now. Basically, with the excpetion of Konerko, the longer players are coached by Walker, the worse they become. He instills bad habit in them and they can't recover.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 04:10 PM
And another thing - Walker seems to only want to change guys' swings when they are doing well, he wants to "improve" them at that point, and it makes them worse. When you get guys who are struggling like Rios and Dunn - "**** it, go take some swings in the batting cage and work it out yourself." He is hands-off then, telling hitters to watch tape of themselves in better times and try to emulate that swing. In other words, watch yourself hitting tapemeasure homeruns and then come into the cage and trying to pull the ball 500 feet. Honestly, his quote from yesterday is that Rios would have to consider changing his swing in the offseason. What the **** have you been doing this year, Greg?! Why haven't you been changing his terrible batting stance all season while he hovered around the Mendoza line? Your job isn't to "let them work it out themselves".

DickAllen72
08-05-2011, 04:49 PM
And another thing - Walker seems to only want to change guys' swings when they are doing well, he wants to "improve" them at that point, and it makes them worse. When you get guys who are struggling like Rios and Dunn - "**** it, go take some swings in the batting cage and work it out yourself." He is hands-off then, telling hitters to watch tape of themselves in better times and try to emulate that swing. In other words, watch yourself hitting tapemeasure homeruns and then come into the cage and trying to pull the ball 500 feet. Honestly, his quote from yesterday is that Rios would have to consider changing his swing in the offseason. What the **** have you been doing this year, Greg?! Why haven't you been changing his terrible batting stance all season while he hovered around the Mendoza line? Your job isn't to "let them work it out themselves".
Why is it that Nick Swisher couldn't hit at all while with the Sox but hit well everyehere before coming here and after leaving? What about Wilson Betemit? Adam Dunn?

Remember when Uribe was struggling until he worked with Hriniak then went on a tear? The next season Walker told Uribe to ditch the toe-tap timing device Hriniak taught him and his batting average plummeted. Then the Sox let him go and his hitting improved again.

Walker is the common denominator in all of these individual failures. His teams all have a history of going into teamwide extended slumps as well.

The only one who really appears to thrive under Walker is Paulie. But look at the price Paulie paid to get to where he finally is. Remember those half season long periods of struggle?

Some say the hitting coach doesn't matter. If that's true, what have they to lose by giving someone else a shot at Walker's job? If the hitting coach does indeed matter, then the evidence is conclusive that Walker has been doing a poor job based on the results.

Walker should have been replaced long ago.

Edit: Oh, and Mark Teahen was never as bad (hitting wise) as he was during his time with the Sox either.

JC456
08-05-2011, 05:01 PM
why is it that nick swisher couldn't hit at all while with the sox but hit well everyehere before coming here and after leaving? What about wilson betemit? Adam dunn?

Remember when uribe was struggling until he worked with hriniak then went on a tear? The next season walker told uribe to ditch the toe-tap timing device hriniak taught him and his batting average plummeted. Then the sox let him go and his hitting improved again.

Walker is the common denominator in all of these individual failures. His teams all have a history of going into teamwide extended slumps as well.

The only one who really appears to thrive under walker is paulie. But look at the price paulie paid to get to where he finally is. Remember those half season long periods of struggle?

Some say the hitting coach doesn't matter. If that's true, what have they to lose by giving someone else a shot at walker's job? If the hitting coach does indeed matter, then the evidence is conclusive that walker has been doing a poor job based on the results.

Walker should have been replaced long ago.

Edit: Oh, and mark teahen was never as bad (hitting wise) as he was during his time with the sox either.
ditto!

wassagstdu
08-05-2011, 05:15 PM
Why is it that Nick Swisher couldn't hit at all while with the Sox but hit well everyehere before coming here and after leaving?

Somehow I think if we could understand what happened with Swisher we could learn a lot about what is wrong with the Sox. I doubt that it was Walker's fault, but I do not know. Ozzie's? Konerko, Dye, and Buehrle's? Don't know but I sure think it would be informative to find out. Is there a consensus I have missed?

DickAllen72
08-05-2011, 05:17 PM
ditto!
Just curious- why did most of the upper case letters in my post revert to lower case when they were quoted in your reply? :?::scratch:

Lip Man 1
08-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Boondock:

The Sox were also in the top five in the league in stolen bases, infield hits, sacrifice bunts, sacrifice flys.

They could beat you with a blast, a bloop or a bunt.

It's called balance and they haven't had it since then.

Lip

MetroPD
08-05-2011, 09:22 PM
Why is it that Nick Swisher couldn't hit at all while with the Sox but hit well everyehere before coming here and after leaving? What about Wilson Betemit? Adam Dunn?

Remember when Uribe was struggling until he worked with Hriniak then went on a tear? The next season Walker told Uribe to ditch the toe-tap timing device Hriniak taught him and his batting average plummeted. Then the Sox let him go and his hitting improved again.

Walker is the common denominator in all of these individual failures. His teams all have a history of going into teamwide extended slumps as well.

The only one who really appears to thrive under Walker is Paulie. But look at the price Paulie paid to get to where he finally is. Remember those half season long periods of struggle?

Some say the hitting coach doesn't matter. If that's true, what have they to lose by giving someone else a shot at Walker's job? If the hitting coach does indeed matter, then the evidence is conclusive that Walker has been doing a poor job based on the results.

Walker should have been replaced long ago.

Edit: Oh, and Mark Teahen was never as bad (hitting wise) as he was during his time with the Sox either.
I wouldn't cite Swisher and Uribe as definitive proof that Walker doesn't work. Neither of those two are anything beyond average at best. Uribe still swings almost of his shoes and Swisher still can't come through with runners on base while hitting below par. Now don't get me wrong, I'm well aware that our team has problems but I don't think pointing the finger solely at Walker is the solution. We don't exactly have good consistent hitters who can rally the flag and make pitchers think twice.

kaufsox
08-05-2011, 11:10 PM
That's silly because talent doesn't equal performance. He is however talented regardless of his performance any given year.

That makes absolutely no sense. Basically you're saying, your results are no indication of your talent. Again, you declared Rios very talented not me. His results with sox do not bear that out. It is also over a three year period, not exactly a small sample size The idea that talent is not related to performance is like saying I'm a talented writer, yet I've not been published. Talent appears in results, the rest is just potential.

As far as Walker, again, I don't care if he gets fired tomorrow. I think the efficacy or not of a hitting coach is vastly overrated. Also, since you know so much about Quentin and Beckham how many times have you been in on their sessions with Walker? Are you certain they are implementing everything he's suggesting? Or maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Seeing how I'm not privy to those sessions, I don't whether they listen to Walker or not, but I'm glad you're able to provide that insight.

Finally as other folks have replied to all of this, I also think that the evidence that Walker is a bad coach is pretty clear, however to think that he is somehow holding back this "very talented team" is farcical. They are not very talented, there are a couple of good players, a few average players and the rest are flotsam, Rios included. A final question, and you can have any coach you want, but are there any center fielders you would rather have than the "five-tooled" Rios? Do you think there are any teams calling up Kenny to see if they can get him?

asindc
08-05-2011, 11:59 PM
That makes absolutely no sense. Basically you're saying, your results are no indication of your talent. Again, you declared Rios very talented not me. His results with sox do not bear that out. It is also over a three year period, not exactly a small sample size The idea that talent is not related to performance is like saying I'm a talented writer, yet I've not been published. Talent appears in results, the rest is just potential.

As far as Walker, again, I don't care if he gets fired tomorrow. I think the efficacy or not of a hitting coach is vastly overrated. Also, since you know so much about Quentin and Beckham how many times have you been in on their sessions with Walker? Are you certain they are implementing everything he's suggesting? Or maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Seeing how I'm not privy to those sessions, I don't whether they listen to Walker or not, but I'm glad you're able to provide that insight.

Finally as other folks have replied to all of this, I also think that the evidence that Walker is a bad coach is pretty clear, however to think that he is somehow holding back this "very talented team" is farcical. They are not very talented, there are a couple of good players, a few average players and the rest are flotsam, Rios included. A final question, and you can have any coach you want, but are there any center fielders you would rather have than the "five-tooled" Rios? Do you think there are any teams calling up Kenny to see if they can get him?

So, was Contreras talented in the second half of 2005 but not in 2009? Was Bret Saberhagen talented in 1985 but not in 1986? Was Dunn talented last year but not this year? Seriously...

PalehosePlanet
08-06-2011, 12:46 AM
That makes absolutely no sense. Basically you're saying, your results are no indication of your talent. Again, you declared Rios very talented not me. His results with sox do not bear that out. It is also over a three year period, not exactly a small sample size The idea that talent is not related to performance is like saying I'm a talented writer, yet I've not been published. Talent appears in results, the rest is just potential.

As far as Walker, again, I don't care if he gets fired tomorrow. I think the efficacy or not of a hitting coach is vastly overrated. Also, since you know so much about Quentin and Beckham how many times have you been in on their sessions with Walker? Are you certain they are implementing everything he's suggesting? Or maybe they aren't listening to him at all. Seeing how I'm not privy to those sessions, I don't whether they listen to Walker or not, but I'm glad you're able to provide that insight.

Finally as other folks have replied to all of this, I also think that the evidence that Walker is a bad coach is pretty clear, however to think that he is somehow holding back this "very talented team" is farcical. They are not very talented, there are a couple of good players, a few average players and the rest are flotsam, Rios included. A final question, and you can have any coach you want, but are there any center fielders you would rather have than the "five-tooled" Rios? Do you think there are any teams calling up Kenny to see if they can get him?

Rios joined us two years ago, almost to the day (8/11/09.)

And I disagree that we only have a couple of good players. Look at the body of their work, not a couple of months. Under your criterion and/or definition of talent there are many players in the HOF who are not "very talented" since down years, bad stretches and career bad years are unacceptable. Because, according to you, if someone doesn't perform at their best for a season that means that they don't have talent. Results in the here and now, in a vacuum, are all that's important.

soxinem1
08-06-2011, 09:26 AM
So what does Ozzie want JR to change?

Ozzie's employer.

Loria deserves him.

Wait till Ozzie experiences his owner trading his best players in May and telling him who to put in the line up.

Subtile hints mean a lot. Ozzie said he is committed to the White Sox, but being manager of FLA would be an honor.

I remember in 1986 when Hawk said LaRussa was 'the second best manager' in baseball. A few months later he was gone.

kaufsox
08-06-2011, 11:47 PM
Rios joined us two years ago, almost to the day (8/11/09.)

And I disagree that we only have a couple of good players. Look at the body of their work, not a couple of months. Under your criterion and/or definition of talent there are many players in the HOF who are not "very talented" since down years, bad stretches and career bad years are unacceptable. Because, according to you, if someone doesn't perform at their best for a season that means that they don't have talent. Results in the here and now, in a vacuum, are all that's important.

I completely agree with that statement.