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View Full Version : Kenny Williams vs. Jim Hendry


Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 12:24 AM
Both signed a bunch of losers, not even coming close to a WS! How do you get a job like that, and how do you keep it?

doublem23
08-03-2011, 12:28 AM
Well yeah, except that one has won a World Series.

:dunno:

soltrain21
08-03-2011, 12:29 AM
Both signed a bunch of losers, not even coming close to a WS! How do you get a job like that, and how do you keep it?

http://ph.cdn.photos.upi.com/view/e0fb2e051eecb173adb0cf27249f185b/2005-WORLD-SERIES-HOUSTON-ASTROS-VS-CHICAGO-WHITE-SOX.jpg

Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 12:33 AM
Well yeah, except that one has won a World Series.

:dunno:

5 years ago, not working since!

soltrain21
08-03-2011, 12:34 AM
5 years ago, not working since!

Maybe you should make yourself more clear.

CHISOXFAN13
08-03-2011, 12:37 AM
McCarver's got nothing on you, Chicken.

Can't wait for another one of your riveting threads.

sullythered
08-03-2011, 12:37 AM
Both signed a bunch of losers, not even coming close to a WS! How do you get a job like that, and how do you keep it?

This thread is both silly and nonsensical.

DumpJerry
08-03-2011, 12:39 AM
5 years ago, not working since!
How many General Managers have seen their team win the World series in the past five years? Five. How many have not been to The Promised Land? Over 25 since there have been changes in management on several teams since 2005.

doublem23
08-03-2011, 12:45 AM
How many General Managers have seen their team win the World series in the past five years? Five. How many have not been to The Promised Land? Over 25 since there have been changes in management on several teams since 2005.

You're going to have to show your math for that brain teaser.

Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 12:56 AM
Dunn, Rios, ................Peavy, Pierre, Danks, ..............Dunn ......52.5 million!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peavy 16M, Rios 12M, Dunn 12M, Pierre.5, Danks 6 mil, come on peeps!

soxfanreggie
08-03-2011, 01:03 AM
Dunn, Rios, ................Peavy, Pierre, Danks, ..............Dunn ......52.5 million!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peavy 16M, Rios 12M, Dunn 12M, Pierre.5, Danks 6 mil, come on peeps!

You have a problem with Danks who has a one-year deal. Remember that deal was based on last year and him being under our control this year. I'll give you Peavy, Dunn, and Rios, but lay off Danks. With Pierre, for our piece of his salary, he isn't sitting there with a horrible deal like the Big 3 there.

Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 01:07 AM
Just the facts maam!

Gavin
08-03-2011, 01:09 AM
Both suck. Hendry sucks more. Don't know if there's a GM out there who has less control of or even influence on the management and day-to-day product than KW.

Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 01:14 AM
Manny? Griffy Jr. Come on!

Nelson Foxtrot
08-03-2011, 01:19 AM
WSI seems far sillier than usual tonight.

I haven't been pleased with quite a few of KW's moves, and am at the point where I probably wouldn't mind seeing the Sox take a new direction, but you can't compare him to Jim Hendry. There has been a poll on Kenny's best moves with plenty of great choices, and he's won a championship here. Other than accepting a gift-wrapped Aramis Ramirez, what did Hendry ever do?

doublem23
08-03-2011, 01:24 AM
You have a problem with Danks who has a one-year deal. Remember that deal was based on last year and him being under our control this year. I'll give you Peavy, Dunn, and Rios, but lay off Danks. With Pierre, for our piece of his salary, he isn't sitting there with a horrible deal like the Big 3 there.

It's pretty clear that logic and reasoning aren't going to go very far in this thread.

Chicken Dinner
08-03-2011, 01:25 AM
WSI seems far sillier than usual tonight.

I haven't been pleased with quite a few of KW's moves, and am at the point where I probably wouldn't mind seeing the Sox take a new direction, but you can't compare him to Jim Hendry. There has been a poll on Kenny's best moves with plenty of great choices, and he's won a championship here. Other than accepting a gift-wrapped Aramis Ramirez, what did Hendry ever do?

Nothing, but going in the wrong direction. Don't listen to polls!

DumpJerry
08-03-2011, 08:10 AM
For this thread to remain credible, we have to ignore the 90 win 2006 season, the Division winning 2008 season, the acquisitions of Jim Thome, Carlos Quentin, Alexei Ramirez, and the extension of Southpaw.

eastchicagosoxfan
08-03-2011, 08:34 AM
Williams has made some bad moves lately, and the team has suffered. Hendry has also made some bad moves, and his team has suffered. However, for one season, Williams made all the right moves. Hendry (whenever I say Hendry, I think of Goodfellas) has yet to put his team into the World Series, much less win it, and sweep it for good measure.

Zisk77
08-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Dunn, Rios, ................Peavy, Pierre, Danks, ..............Dunn ......52.5 million!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peavy 16M, Rios 12M, Dunn 12M, Pierre.5, Danks 6 mil, come on peeps!


I find it incredibly hipocritical for amlost anybody on this board to criticize those 2 moves. This board was near unanimous that thos were great acquisitions when they took place. Hell, most of WSI were clamoring that Kenny should trade for Dunn going on three years. "get it done kenny" "Trade Beckham and TCQ Kenny" and other ridiculousness. But of course now this thread makes sense.

Ironic, that I'm defending these acquisistions as I was one of few posters not enamored with either deal from the beginning. At least I understood where KW was coming from.

RKMeibalane
08-03-2011, 10:12 AM
Manny? Griffy Jr. Come on!

Who's Griffy Jr?

Zisk77
08-03-2011, 10:20 AM
Manny? Griffy Jr. Come on!

Gavin Floyd, Freddie Garcia X 2, Estebah Loaiza, TCQ, John Danks, Alexie Ramirez, Dayan Viciedo, A,J Pierzynski, Jermain Dye, Jim Thome, Matt Thornton, Sergio Santos, Chris Sale, Scotty Pods, Bobby Jenks, Tad Iguchi, Carl Everette X 3, come on!

asindc
08-03-2011, 10:37 AM
I find it incredibly hipocritical for amlost anybody on this board to criticize those 2 moves. This board was near unanimous that thos were great acquisitions when they took place. Hell, most of WSI were clamoring that Kenny should trade for Dunn going on three years. "get it done kenny" "Trade Beckham and TCQ Kenny" and other ridiculousness. But of course now this thread makes sense.

Ironic, that I'm defending these acquisistions as I was one of few posters not enamored with either deal from the beginning. At least I understood where KW was coming from.

I am so glad that someone who was not crazy about either deal has said this. I think many Sox fans were/are still so hung up on 'winning' the free agent/trade deadline season (complete with 'big name' acquisitions) that they have been highly critical of KW for not landing that 'big name.' Well, he has landed three in the past two years. They are not working out for reasons a very small minority of fans warned about then. As I said in an earlier thread this season, if you did not want to fire KW on March 1, 2011, why would you want to fire him now?

Gavin
08-03-2011, 10:57 AM
I am so glad that someone who was not crazy about either deal has said this. I think many Sox fans were/are still so hung up on 'winning' the free agent/trade deadline season (complete with 'big name' acquisitions) that they have been highly critical of KW for not landing that 'big name.' Well, he has landed three in the past two years. They are not working out for reasons a very small minority of fans warned about then. As I said in an earlier thread this season, if you did not want to fire KW on March 1, 2011, why would you want to fire him now?

I'm not upset that KW got Dunn. I'm upset Dunn is still starting against lefties or why is he batting cleanup?

Really makes no sense. Such a disconnect between the talent and the day-to-day operations.

asindc
08-03-2011, 11:14 AM
I'm not upset that KW got Dunn. I'm upset Dunn is still starting against lefties or why is he batting cleanup?

Really makes no sense. Such a disconnect between the talent and the day-to-day operations.

I think that's fair, and would think so even if I disagreed with you, which I don't. I also think some people are guilty of not making that distinction.

palehozenychicty
08-03-2011, 11:27 AM
Overall, Ken Williams has done a decent job, winning two divisions and one World Championship. This franchise can do better, though, and I think their negligence of proper scouting/development operations is why they haven't won even moreso. Hendry won two divisions as well, but the team didn't win a game in the postseason. Case closed.

bluedemon45
08-03-2011, 12:22 PM
Peavy and Dunn are washes IMO. Every person on here was pumped and thought they were great signings. There were even people on here that said we don't need to sign Konerko now because we have Dunn that can play 1B. :o:

I don't know how a GM is supposed to predict a freak injury (Peavy) and an on pace DH for the worst BA in the history of MLB.

Kenny has made more great moves than he has made bad. He has found a lot of diamonds in the rough and I think thats what he was expecting with Rios which has ultimately failed as well.

The biggest move that Kenny will make this off season isn't going to be made on the field, its going to be made in the dug out.

blandman
08-03-2011, 12:34 PM
I'm not upset that KW got Dunn. I'm upset Dunn is still starting against lefties or why is he batting cleanup?

Really makes no sense. Such a disconnect between the talent and the day-to-day operations.

It makes perfect sense to me. He was paid and brought in to do that. If he doesn't do that, we're not winning anyway. Better to try and right him than sit him and lose.

Gavin
08-03-2011, 12:59 PM
It makes perfect sense to me. He was paid and brought in to do that. If he doesn't do that, we're not winning anyway. Better to try and right him than sit him and lose.

It's August. It's clear that something is wrong.

Re: the "paid to do that".. sunk costs are sunk. Give someone else those ABs or at least move him down in the order.

SI1020
08-03-2011, 01:00 PM
KW had a rocky start but then settled in and did a fine job. Being on a budget he was forced to get creative, had a little luck and fashioned together the 05 Champions. 06-08 was mixed with some bright spots, but since then he has been in a Dunn like slump. The franchise is in a mess and now he along with just about everyone else needs to go. Between 1973-2002 the Cubs had 6 winning seasons. Under Hendry they've had 5, so I know the bar is low on the north side but I give the guy some credit. Unfortunately for their fans and adoring media they've been miserable failures in the playoffs and now they're saddled with expensive contracts and the team is lousy. It's time for him to go too.

blandman
08-03-2011, 01:03 PM
It's August. It's clear that something is wrong.

Re: the "paid to do that".. sunk costs are sunk. Give someone else those ABs or at least move him down in the order.

It's easy when it's not you money to say $50 million is a sunk cost. But the reality of the situation is that it would be incredibly short-sighted to bench him or move him down. Because this team is not that far off, and can ONLY make a splash with him right there, being the hitter he's supposed to be.

asindc
08-03-2011, 01:08 PM
KW had a rocky start but then settled in and did a fine job. Being on a budget he was forced to get creative, had a little luck and fashioned together the 05 Champions. 06-08 was mixed with some bright spots, but since then he has been in a Dunn like slump. The franchise is in a mess and now he along with just about everyone else needs to go. Between 1973-2002 the Cubs had 6 winning seasons. Under Hendry they've had 5, so I know the bar is low on the north side but I give the guy some credit. Unfortunately for their fans and adoring media they've been miserable failures in the playoffs and now they're saddled with expensive contracts and the team is lousy. It's time for him to go too.

So you are blaming KW for Dunn's poor play? I'm blaming the Marketing Director myself.

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 01:23 PM
It's easy when it's not you money to say $50 million is a sunk cost. But the reality of the situation is that it would be incredibly short-sighted to bench him or move him down. Because this team is not that far off, and can ONLY make a splash with him right there, being the hitter he's supposed to be.

He can figure out how to hit in the 9 hole just as easily as he can in the 4 hole. The only difference is that while he figures out things in the 9 hole, there can be more capable guys actually getting hits in the 4 hole.

Gavin
08-03-2011, 01:33 PM
It's easy when it's not you money to say $50 million is a sunk cost. But the reality of the situation is that it would be incredibly short-sighted to bench him or move him down. Because this team is not that far off, and can ONLY make a splash with him right there, being the hitter he's supposed to be.

I, too, would like to see Adam Dunn batting cleanup and suddenly hitting dingers every third night. The reality is that everything that has happened this season until this very moment has been proof that there is something drastically wrong with him and that he is currently not capable of being the same batter he was in previous seasons. Batting a guy lower in the order to get things figured out is a baseball staple.

WhiteSox5187
08-03-2011, 01:36 PM
I haven't read the whole thread so I am sure someone has made this point but right now the White Sox are pretty much in the same position as the Cubs. Both teams are stuck with a lot of dead money contracts and guys that aren't moveable and both teams seem to have no direction right now. Kenny has had more success than Hendry based on 2005 alone (coupled with a real good 2006 season that fell just short and a trip to the playoffs in 2008) although I believe that Hendry has more trips to the playoffs than Kenny. But both clubs are in a real though spot right now thanks to the contracts and acquisitions of their GMs.

hi im skot
08-03-2011, 01:41 PM
I haven't read the whole thread so I am sure someone has made this point but right now the White Sox are pretty much in the same position as the Cubs. Both teams are stuck with a lot of dead money contracts and guys that aren't moveable and both teams seem to have no direction right now. Kenny has had more success than Hendry based on 2005 alone (coupled with a real good 2006 season that fell just short and a trip to the playoffs in 2008) although I believe that Hendry has more trips to the playoffs than Kenny. But both clubs are in a real though spot right now thanks to the contracts and acquisitions of their GMs.

The Cubs have some good young talent that the Sox don't, but otherwise, yes.

russ99
08-03-2011, 01:46 PM
It's August. It's clear that something is wrong.

Re: the "paid to do that".. sunk costs are sunk. Give someone else those ABs or at least move him down in the order.

Ozzie's moved him down the order a number of times.
Dunn's ABs by batting order:

3rd: 138
4th: 61
5th: 73
6th: 8
7th: 33

asindc
08-03-2011, 01:52 PM
Ozzie's moved him down the order a number of times.
Dunn's ABs by batting order:

3rd: 138
4th: 61
5th: 73
6th: 8
7th: 33

And he has actually performed better in the lower spots.

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 01:53 PM
Ozzie's moved him down the order a number of times.
Dunn's ABs by batting order:

3rd: 138
4th: 61
5th: 73
6th: 8
7th: 33

You call 41 at-bats outside the 3-4-5 spots "moving him down"? That's about a total of 10 games.

Gavin
08-03-2011, 01:59 PM
You call 41 at-bats outside the 3-4-5 spots "moving him down"? That's about a total of 10 games.

Dunn is batting 9/61 in the cleanup spot. On Monday night, he faced CC Sabathia and again was put into the 4 slot and struck out three times leaving two on base in a one-run loss.

http://soxsidepride.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/ozzie-guillen-laughing-180.jpg?w=180&h=236http://www.theotherfifteen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/kenny-and-ozzie-300x212.jpg

blandman
08-03-2011, 02:01 PM
He can figure out how to hit in the 9 hole just as easily as he can in the 4 hole. The only difference is that while he figures out things in the 9 hole, there can be more capable guys actually getting hits in the 4 hole.

And essentially you're moving up 6 hitters having nearly as bad seasons, putting more pressure on all of them.

Great idea.

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 02:05 PM
And essentially you're moving up 6 hitters having nearly as bad seasons, putting more pressure on all of them.

Great idea.

The next worst starter on the team, Rios, is hitting .41 better than him. The next worst starter, Beckham, is hitting .46 better than Rios. Nobody on the Sox is haring a season that's nearly as bad as Adam Dunn when it comes to hitting.

edit: And I'm sure that having all of that pressure on Dunn is helping him tremendously, right?

blandman
08-03-2011, 02:40 PM
The next worst starter on the team, Rios, is hitting .41 better than him. The next worst starter, Beckham, is hitting .46 better than Rios. Nobody on the Sox is haring a season that's nearly as bad as Adam Dunn when it comes to hitting.

edit: And I'm sure that having all of that pressure on Dunn is helping him tremendously, right?

And Dunn slugs better and draws more walks then any of them, and is the only one with the potential to be better than replacement level in that slot.

Seriously, there is no one on our roster or in the minors who, between now and the end of the year, is going to give you the 8-10 more wins over replacement we'll need to win the division. It's gotta be Dunn. If you think putting anyone else there is going to salvage our season, you're kidding yourselves. He's the only one remotely capable.

Boondock Saint
08-03-2011, 02:54 PM
And Dunn slugs better and draws more walks then any of them, and is the only one with the potential to be better than replacement level in that slot.

Seriously, there is no one on our roster or in the minors who, between now and the end of the year, is going to give you the 8-10 more wins over replacement we'll need to win the division. It's gotta be Dunn. If you think putting anyone else there is going to salvage our season, you're kidding yourselves. He's the only one remotely capable.


Adam Dunn slugs better than them? Last time I checked, he was slugging .301, 2nd worst among the starters, beating out only Rios. And exactly how many runs has Dunn driven in on a walk? I don't know the number, but I'm sure it's less than 3, making the walks completely irrelevant as far as driving in runs goes.

And my point has nothing to do with any minor leaguers. It has everything to do with letting the other guys in the lineup take his spot in the middle of the order.

blandman
08-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Adam Dunn slugs better than them? Last time I checked, he was slugging .301, 2nd worst among the starters, beating out only Rios. And exactly how many runs has Dunn driven in on a walk? I don't know the number, but I'm sure it's less than 3, making the walks completely irrelevant as far as driving in runs goes.

Fair, didn't realize his slugging percentage dropped so far. Though it's still right there with everyone else.

Walks are a lot better than double play balls. And like I said before, there is no one in the lineup who, replacing Adam higher in the order, is going to be responsible for 8-10 more victories over the course of two months. Just simply not in the realm of possibility for any of those guys to put up MVP type numbers. Only Dunn has done that in the past.

SI1020
08-03-2011, 03:13 PM
So you are blaming KW for Dunn's poor play? I'm blaming the Marketing Director myself. Kenny's moves the last few years have mainly been bad to worse. If you disagree fine, but that's what I'm saying. As for Dunn, nobody could have foreseen this collapse of historic proportions. Nevertheless a GM is always going to be judged on the success or failure of the players signed, drafted and traded for. Nothing you or I say will ever change that. The entire organization is in a slump and the Sox are on the cusp of some really lean times unless some tough changes are made. I'm all for stability and continuity in life but the current regime appears to have run its course.

asindc
08-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Kenny's moves the last few years have mainly been bad to worse. If you disagree fine, but that's what I'm saying. As for Dunn, nobody could have foreseen this collapse of historic proportions. Nevertheless a GM is always going to be judged on the success or failure of the players signed, drafted and traded for. Nothing you or I say will ever change that. The entire organization is in a slump and the Sox are on the cusp of some really lean times unless some tough changes are made. I'm all for stability and continuity in life but the current regime appears to have run its course.

I'm fine with that, but at least let's evaluate his performance properly. I don't disagree that the past two seasons have not been up to par with his best, but I've never been in favor of firing GMs for players' lousy performances. Coaches, yes, because they have a direct influence over players. GMs? That is more nuanced, IMO. I do understand why fans want to wipe the slate clean, however. I just can't agree with statements like, "KW should be fired for bringing in Dunn, Rios, and Peavy."

DumpJerry
08-03-2011, 06:32 PM
The Cubs have some good young talent that the Sox don't, but otherwise, yes.
Make that had some good young talent. They gave away the store in the Garza trade (mere days after Ricketts sent the Season Ticket holders a letter saying they were going with youth and development:rolleyes:). Furthermore, their AAA team has the worst or second worst ERA in the PCL with nobody who can come up to The Show if there is an injury on the pitching staff. Barney and Castro are their only "prospects" and those two are already regular players.

Every team except the Yankees and Red Sox have bad contracts they are stuck with. The only reason why the Red Sox and Yankees don't have bad contracts is that they buy out the players who don't perform. This thread can have the names of the General Managers of the 28 teams who are not the Red Sox or Yankees and have pretty much the same type of postings.

Nellie_Fox
08-04-2011, 01:33 AM
Peavy and Dunn are washes IMO. Every person on here was pumped and thought they were great signings.That's not remotely true. There were a lot of people, me included, who were not thrilled with the Dunn signing. No, none of us thought he'd be this bad, but it was nowhere near "every person on here was pumped."

Tragg
08-04-2011, 01:51 AM
never mind.