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LITTLE NELL
08-02-2011, 05:57 AM
I know we are not suppose to discuss attendence issues but when only 24,000 show up to see the Yankees there is something wrong and the issue should be addressed . Sox fans who are as smart as it comes are finally rebelling against the higher prices for "Premier" games. The $23.00 to park also has to be an issue. You can say we have a lousy team but these games in the past were probably sold out right when they went on sale at the beginning of the year. The first clue was when we they didn't sell out any of the Cub games. The Red Sox series did not come close to selling out and this Yankee series will not sell out either. Looking at the rest of the schedule my guess is the Sox will not draw 2,000,000 this year and with the huge salaries we are paying this franchise may be in big trouble.

Soxfest
08-02-2011, 06:16 AM
Sox on and off the field brought it on themselves for the reasons you listed.:angry:

Juice16
08-02-2011, 06:41 AM
I had every intention of going to a game this series until I was reminded that the prices were increased for the Yankee series. $44 x 2 for a bleacher seat on top of parking, i just can't afford it.

KenBerryGrab
08-02-2011, 07:43 AM
With this and the Red Sox gate, one wonders whether the front office will finally get that those bodies in the stands and the concessions are worth more than what the upcharge is for premier games. The place was rocking for half-price Monday against the Kitties.

GoSox2K3
08-02-2011, 07:57 AM
People are fed up with the same old mediocre crap. There's apparently no accountability on this team as Kenny, Ozzie, and Walker are all still here.

I don't see the Sox getting better any time soon since they have very little talent in the farm system and the players who are just killing them (Dunn and Rios) are owed about $100M through 2014.

Sorry, going to games by the time you pay for parking, tickets for the family, plus concessions is expensive. I've had it with going only to see the Sox strand runners in scoring position and to watch Ozzie make lousy decisions. I'm mostly fed up with the idea that Ozzie is the "face of the franchise". Talk about no accountability. He's beyond reproach because "he's Ozzie".

Ugh, wake me up when this organization gets its **** together.

Nelfox02
08-02-2011, 08:03 AM
For me at least the sox have a lot of competition for my "entertainment" dollars.....and I just dont find this team very entertaining. So I load the family up, take the 45 minute trip out there, plunk down some big $$$ to park and get in, and all of the sudden they are down 2 after an inning or 2 and the game is basically over?

I will keep tuning in on TV on a regular basis, but to commit an evening to this group.......its not even money anymore.....its time. If they stink it up I can just turn them off and go do something else.......at the park? yeah I guess you can get up and leave in the third, but after paying that much to be there that seems like a real waste

at the end of the day from a fan's POV baseball should be entertaining, and this is not an entertaining team IMO, heck even most of the games we win are not very fun to watch.

Sorry Sox, but I am not attending anymore games, not to see this mess in person.

Madvora
08-02-2011, 08:07 AM
Fans should show up to see the White Sox, not the opponent.

mrfourni
08-02-2011, 08:37 AM
Fans should show up to see the White Sox, not the opponent.

If that's the case, then shouldn't ticket prices be the same regardless of opponent?

34rancher
08-02-2011, 08:44 AM
Fans should show up to see the White Sox, not the opponent.

If that's the case, then shouldn't ticket prices be the same regardless of opponent?

It's been one of my arguements against boycotting premier games. No respect for MLB talent. So ifna player was on the lowly royals, traded at deadline to Yankees, I should pay more? Garbage. Someday the goose will die that laid those eggs. And right now it looks like it is aging fast. Getting real old, kind of like the attitude of some of these players.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 08:50 AM
Didn't this first happen couple years ago when a mid-week Dodgers series was premier and no one showed up?

I have a feeling after only 1 (?, opening day?) sell out this year the Sox are gonna take a hard look at pricing next year in regards to dynamic pricing and prime/premier dates.

DSpivack
08-02-2011, 08:52 AM
I've wondered for the last few years if the White Sox have the most expensive cheapest tickets in baseball; that is, the cheapest seats at U.S. Cellular Field are more expensive than the cheapest seats at any other stadium. They might not be #1, but it's gotta be close. Even the Yankees have more affordable seats at the low end.

asindc
08-02-2011, 08:56 AM
I've wondered for the last few years if the White Sox have the most expensive cheapest tickets in baseball; that is, the cheapest seats at U.S. Cellular Field are more expensive than the cheapest seats at any other stadium. They might not be #1, but it's gotta be close. Even the Yankees have more affordable seats at the low end.

That might be true, but I'm rather certain that they have far fewer seats priced at the low end.

BainesHOF
08-02-2011, 08:58 AM
Fan turned out for the Detroit series during the week. Then there was a big attendance drop for the Boston weekend series. That says it all.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 08:59 AM
Keep this in mind, because the answer isn't always as easy as it sounds. The way the Cell is set up, it would be very hard to police the situation, especially in the upper deck, of trying to keep people in the seats they purchased. If the Sox sold the upper deck corners for $5 every game, those people would be tempted to move behind homeplate (531-534, let's say), causing headaches in a lot of different ways.

kevingrt
08-02-2011, 08:59 AM
If that's the case, then shouldn't ticket prices be the same regardless of opponent?

I think so. But obviously the Sox and their business department do not believe so.

It's incredible that we can draw 35k+ for Monday games against the Royals, Tigers, etc and can barely draw 20k for Red Sox and Yankees games. Especially considering the fact that there are a ton of Yankees and Red Sox fans that infiltrate the Cell gates for every year.

As the original poster said between $60 bleacher seats, $23 parking, and a team that 1. doesn'tseem to care much and 2. flat out stinks... not many White Sox fans are going to be showing up to the park these days. Except if tickets are $20 or cheaper.

DSpivack
08-02-2011, 09:00 AM
Keep this in mind, because the answer isn't always as easy as it sounds. The way the Cell is set up, it would be very hard to police the situation, especially in the upper deck, of trying to keep people in the seats they purchased. If the Sox sold the upper deck corners for $5 every game, those people would be tempted to move behind homeplate (531-534, let's say), causing headaches in a lot of different ways.

That's a pretty poor excuse and USCF isn't inherently different from any other ballpark in that regard.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:01 AM
It's been one of my arguements against boycotting premier games. No respect for MLB talent. So ifna player was on the lowly royals, traded at deadline to Yankees, I should pay more? Garbage. Someday the goose will die that laid those eggs. And right now it looks like it is aging fast. Getting real old, kind of like the attitude of some of these players.

And if the Sox were playing 1/2 as well as they could be, this would be a non-issue since 35,000 would have packed the park last night. People don't want to come out to watch bad baseball, which is what the team has provided almost all season long.

This ridiculous "all MLB talent should be equal!" argument gets crazier and crazier every passing series. First, what planet do you live on that the Yankees and Royals are comparable? And second, since the inception of the weighted games, the premier games have generally drawn the best crowds even with the price increase. Sure, there have been missteps (like that Dodgers series last year) but by in large, even with the increased prices, these games draw more fans than others.

And finally, since the Sox have such expensive tickets that really offsets the number of fans in the stands. Sure, pure numbers-wise we're hovering around the middle of the league, but if you factor in the average ticket prices, the Sox are somewhere around 7th or 8th in the league in revenues at the gate, which is really the number I'd expect actual baseball minds to pay attention to.

Madvora
08-02-2011, 09:01 AM
If that's the case, then shouldn't ticket prices be the same regardless of opponent?
I think so, but obviously it a business thing, so it makes sense for them. I don't differentiate between opponents. Obviously some are better than others, but when I plan on going to games it's based on my own schedule, not who they're playing at all. I'm just as happy seeing the Sox play the Royals as I am seeing them play any other team.
The only difference is the Cubs, and that had a different effect. I went to about the first five or six years of those and I will never go to one of those games again.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:03 AM
Keep this in mind, because the answer isn't always as easy as it sounds. The way the Cell is set up, it would be very hard to police the situation, especially in the upper deck, of trying to keep people in the seats they purchased. If the Sox sold the upper deck corners for $5 every game, those people would be tempted to move behind homeplate (531-534, let's say), causing headaches in a lot of different ways.

What situation needs to be policed? If no one is sitting in the sections behind home plate, then why not move there? It's not like they're moving to the front row in the Lower Bowl? And don't the Sox have ushers at nearly every aisle anyway? Wouldn't be that hard to check tickets.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 09:05 AM
That's a pretty poor excuse and USCF isn't inherently different from any other ballpark in that regard.

Many parks built since 1991 have more levels of seating, and the seating is broken up differently...easier to police the entrance points.

I'm playing devil's advocate, but tell me how you police keeping 5000 people (paying $5 each) in 509, 510, 550, 551 during a game when people paid $38-$50 to sit in 532 and 533 (first six rows) and have plenty of open seats in their section.

Other than the whole rowdy/riff-raff issue, you then have pissed off season ticket holders who are thinking "why did we pay this much when we could have paid less to sit a few rows higher and to the left or right?"

Harry Potter
08-02-2011, 09:06 AM
What situation needs to be policed? If no one is sitting in the sections behind home plate, then why not move there? It's not like they're moving to the front row in the Lower Bowl? And don't the Sox have ushers at nearly every aisle anyway? Wouldn't be that hard to check tickets.

That's assuming they are actually doing their jobs

Brian26
08-02-2011, 09:06 AM
What situation needs to be policed? If no one is sitting in the sections behind home plate, then why not move there?

It devalues the price of tickets in the upper deck across-the-board and alienates the season ticket base who sits up there.

DSpivack
08-02-2011, 09:07 AM
Many parks built since 1991 have more levels of seating, and the seating is broken up differently...easier to police the entrance points.

I'm playing devil's advocate, but tell me how you police keeping 5000 people (paying $5 each) in 509, 510, 550, 551 during a game when people paid $38-$50 to sit in 532 and 533 (first six rows) and have plenty of open seats in their section.

Other than the whole rowdy/riff-raff issue, you then have pissed off season ticket holders who are thinking "why did we pay this much when we could have paid less to sit a few rows higher and to the left or right?"

People can still walk from one section to another in those stadiums. Ushers at many stadiums make fans use their tickets to enter that section, it's not difficult.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:09 AM
It devalues the price of tickets in the upper deck across-the-board and alienates the season ticket base who sits up there.

Are there still actually season ticket holders that don't know they could get cheaper tickets by dropping their plan and scouring the internet for steals?

Brian26
08-02-2011, 09:16 AM
Are there still actually season ticket holders that don't know they could get cheaper tickets by dropping their plan and scouring the internet for steals?

Yeah, I know there are still season ticket holders that support the team and enjoy having the perks of guaranteed playoff tickets (ha!) and everything that goes along with it. There's some work and risk involved with scouring the internet for good tickets right before a game, and there is something comforting about having your games on the calendar in advance.

Season ticket holders are contributing to paying for a lot of crap contracts right now, so they have my 100% respect.

Quentin08
08-02-2011, 09:39 AM
I was a little put off by that commercial last night, "ARE YOU ALL IN?"... "tickets starting at $12 a seat".

On one hand, I can understand their frustration when they're struggling to stay afloat with a seemingly fickle fanbase, but their disconnect with the fanbase is more surprising. Tickets should be starting at $7 a seat (upper deck corners) for all games, not just week day games against the lower tier teams. And as if their marketing slogan this season wasn't enough of a disaster, instead of dropping it, they're now using it to point the finger in our direction. :scratch:

Yeah, I'm all in .. in front of my LED HDTV. :dtroll:

amsteel
08-02-2011, 09:43 AM
Fan turned out for the Detroit series during the week. Then there was a big attendance drop for the Boston weekend series. That says it all.

There were 823 more people per game at the Detroit series than the Boston series, not a huge difference (~2.6%). And from the sounds of it around here there are a chunk of people that didn't go because they were playing Boston, not because prices were too high.

kittle42
08-02-2011, 09:48 AM
Team sucks. People stay away. It has been that way for years.

kaufsox
08-02-2011, 09:57 AM
Yeah, I know there are still season ticket holders that support the team and enjoy having the perks of guaranteed playoff tickets (ha!) and everything that goes along with it. There's some work and risk involved with scouring the internet for good tickets right before a game, and there is something comforting about having your games on the calendar in advance.

Season ticket holders are contributing to paying for a lot of crap contracts right now, so they have my 100% respect.

I have moved up sections when the crowd is sparse, and nobody seems to mind. Half the time I talk to the folks around me and the season ticket holders are just happy for the company.:D:

Huisj
08-02-2011, 10:07 AM
When the team stinks and plays like they don't care, it's hard to justify heading to a game and paying ton of money, and especially so when you have to pay even more to see them play a good team that they will probably lose to.

I can drive down to see them in Detroit, spend about $20 for an ok ticket on stubhub, and pay $5 or $7 bucks to park a few block from Comerica park. With that option for me, it's hard to tell myself it's worth it to drive 3 more hours and pay double that for a ticket and 3-4 times that for parking.

roylestillman
08-02-2011, 10:38 AM
I have posted about this issue before, but the whole ticket pricing issue has me going nuts. For one of the early posters who complained about bleacher seats at $44 each, you should have grabbed them. right now on the Sox web site the cost of a bleacher seat, with most of the convenience charges include is $68 for tonight's game. (and if you want to print them at home add another $2.) The published price in the pocket schedule was $52. They added another $5 with that ridiculous "dynamic pricing" nonsense. The rest is fees.

Now, let's look at another thing the Sox have started doing. I had other plans for Wednesday night, so I put my season tickets on the Sox authorized Stub Hub site a month ago. I put them on at $49, which after commissions, would mean I lose about $10 each from what I paid for them. Checking where my tickets were in in terms of pricing, I noticed in the last week or so that large blocks of tickets in my section (im talking groups of 24 and 18 tickets)had been put on Stub Hub at $43.99 each. The Sox themselves were dumping tickets on Stub Hub undercutting their season ticket holders!

How do you reconcile dynamic pricing and ticket dumping?

Why would I renew next year?

kittle42
08-02-2011, 10:45 AM
Why would I renew next year?

Amen.

dickallen15
08-02-2011, 10:51 AM
To keep people in the upper deck and make it a place some would like to be, they should make concessions up there cheaper, and not give 100 level ticketholders access.

#1swisher
08-02-2011, 10:57 AM
I have read (endured) all posts and didn't see this ...


The Beatles were in town and Lolla this weekend.

How much disposable income do people have?

Fenway
08-02-2011, 10:59 AM
White Sox dynamic pricing

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/ticketing/dynamic_pricing.jsp?c_id=cws


Stub Hub

http://www.stubhub.com/chicago-white-sox-tickets/white-sox-vs-yankees-8-2-2011-1004140/

Being a weekday series doesn't help....but I believe the Cubs shattered Wrigley records this year when NYY came in for a weekend...and the Cubs are playing a LOT worse than the Sox.

Parking fees may well be factor
The most expensive parking is the New York Yankees ($35), Boston Red Sox ($27), Chicago Cubs ($25) and the Chicago White Sox ($23).

The cheapest parking is the Tampa Bay Rays ($0), Washington Nationals ($5), Detroit Tigers ($5), Minnesota Twins ($6) and the Kansas City Royals ($6) according to Team Marketing Report

https://www.teammarketing.com/public/files/2011_mlb_fci.pdf

The Red Sox and Cubs however have very limited parking, Yankees have no control over the garage prices in the Bronx ( set by city ) and more fans are now using the new Metro-North station that serves Manhattan, Westchester and Connecticut.

IMHO White Sox parking should be $10-15 at most.

It might be time to find another marketing guru...

Carolina Kenny
08-02-2011, 11:01 AM
Follow the money. It's all about GREED.

Baseball used to be the low cost entertainment family value.

High price tickets are only the beginning. You get gouged by parking and food concessions. You get raped at every opportunity.

Sox fans are not fooled by this apparent lack of effort by this club. Ownership will now have to start to unravel the millions of dollars they invested in crappy players made soft by high priced contracts.

Bud Lite will have no answers to this down turn as he can't turn a blind eye to the performance enhancing drugs that "saved" baseball last time.

It's time for price reductions and franchise reductions. Its time for a change.

Many old Sox fans know the drill. Stop supporting this team and blow it up.

voodoochile
08-02-2011, 11:03 AM
Team sucks. People stay away. It has been that way for years.

And the economy sucks hard...

ShooterMcGavin
08-02-2011, 11:19 AM
The Sox didn't have tiered pricing until Brooks Boyer came to the orgainzation.

I don't like the tiered pricing based on opponent. I have intentially stayed away from those games.

Gavin
08-02-2011, 11:22 AM
When I was at a Nationals game this year, I bought a pretty cheap ticket off the internet to some upper deck area. (The Nationals ballpark has about 40 different sections, by the way). Of course, me and my buddy try to get some decent lower level tickets (there were wide swaths of these) when we entered the game around the second inning. The usher stopped us, checked our tickets, then told us to come back later in the game (a few innings later) and he'd "see what he could do". So we came back in the 5th, got told what area we could sit in (had to be in "his" section), and enjoyed ourselves. It was pretty cool for him to allow us to do that and it was pretty cool to see that kind of discretion granted to an usher. It was a win-win.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 11:30 AM
When I was at a Nationals game this year, I bought a pretty cheap ticket off the internet to some upper deck area. (The Nationals ballpark has about 40 different sections, by the way). Of course, me and my buddy try to get some decent lower level tickets (there were wide swaths of these) when we entered the game around the second inning. The usher stopped us, checked our tickets, then told us to come back later in the game (a few innings later) and he'd "see what he could do". So we came back in the 5th, got told what area we could sit in (had to be in "his" section), and enjoyed ourselves. It was pretty cool for him to allow us to do that and it was pretty cool to see that kind of discretion granted to an usher. It was a win-win.

I would think that part of this is the Nationals likely don't have a large or vocal season ticket holder base to put up a fight against any organizational misgivings so the Nats have to cater to single game patrons a little more than others.

Fenway
08-02-2011, 11:50 AM
That's assuming they are actually doing their jobs

The White Sox have gone from the best ushers in MLB (Andy Frain) to the worst.

The team knows this and there is NOTHING they can do about it. It was part of the stadium deal 20 years ago.

I feel bad for those kids as they have not be trained well.

WhiffleBall
08-02-2011, 11:50 AM
The only solution to the attendance issue is winning. Lowering prices might bring more fans to the ballpark but that does not mean overall revenue will increase which, like it or not, is what is needed to at least have a chance in MLB. Winning consistently would guarantee a loyal season ticket holder base, plenty of advance sales, and most weekend & premier games being sell outs.

I also do not believe that the sox, or any major sports team, would use stubhub to directly sell their tickets. They have contracts with ticketmaster that are probably much more lucrative than using stubhub. They can control pricing by using coupons and such. Those blocks of tix for the Yankees games are probably some speculator who thought he could make some money off of these games.

Milw
08-02-2011, 11:55 AM
Many parks built since 1991 have more levels of seating, and the seating is broken up differently...easier to police the entrance points.

I'm playing devil's advocate, but tell me how you police keeping 5000 people (paying $5 each) in 509, 510, 550, 551 during a game when people paid $38-$50 to sit in 532 and 533 (first six rows) and have plenty of open seats in their section.

Other than the whole rowdy/riff-raff issue, you then have pissed off season ticket holders who are thinking "why did we pay this much when we could have paid less to sit a few rows higher and to the left or right?"
The Sox already have three tiers of pricing in the upper deck alone (Premium Upper Box, Upper Box, Upper Reserved). I understand what you're saying, but they punted on that issue several years ago.

Madvora
08-02-2011, 12:00 PM
When I first opened this thread, I though you were questioning why 24,000 people did show up, not why 20,000 didn't.
That's what I'm wondering.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 12:05 PM
I also do not believe that the sox, or any major sports team, would use stubhub to directly sell their tickets. They have contracts with ticketmaster that are probably much more lucrative than using stubhub. They can control pricing by using coupons and such. Those blocks of tix for the Yankees games are probably some speculator who thought he could make some money off of these games.

Maybe not StubHub...http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704098304576021683616951622.html

edit: I'm not saying the White Sox are doing this, just that apparently some pro sports teams are.

tstrike2000
08-02-2011, 12:14 PM
When I first opened this thread, I though you were questioning why 24,000 people did show up, not why 20,000 didn't.
That's what I'm wondering.

I guess you could look at it either way. When the Sox are losing 4-3 or 3-2 with 7 K's for the offense, either way it doesn't create too much excitement during this home stretch of the season.

downstairs
08-02-2011, 12:23 PM
I, personally, never really care who the opponent is unless it means something division or wild-card wise. I'd much rather go see a good AL Central team- because the game means more.

I understand the Cubs being a premium high-priced ticket. That's fair for 3 special games. But a Sox/Yankees game is as important to me as a Sox/Mariners game.

JB98
08-02-2011, 12:28 PM
I don't think they would sell out this series if they were playing well.

Sox fans pay the fifth-highest ticket prices in baseball. It's a tough economy. I can't pay $40-plus per ticket to attend these games, even if I were happy with the product on the field and wanted to go.

Milw
08-02-2011, 12:28 PM
I, personally, never really care who the opponent is unless it means something division or wild-card wise. I'd much rather go see a good AL Central team- because the game means more.

I understand the Cubs being a premium high-priced ticket. That's fair for 3 special games. But a Sox/Yankees game is as important to me as a Sox/Mariners game.
The thing that people aren't acknowledging is that the Red Sox and Yankees travel better than most teams. Whether that's because people are actually flying from the East Coast, they're transplants living locally or they're just bandwagoners, the fact is there is traditionally higher demand for these games. The tickets aren't priced higher because we Sox fans are more interested (for the most part), they're priced higher because more people who aren't Sox fans are inclined to go.

Obviously, the Sox have overestimated the demand relative to pricing. But just because YOU aren't more interested in seeing the Yankees doesn't mean that there isn't higher demand.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 12:53 PM
The thing that people aren't acknowledging is that the Red Sox and Yankees travel better than most teams. Whether that's because people are actually flying from the East Coast, they're transplants living locally or they're just bandwagoners, the fact is there is traditionally higher demand for these games. The tickets aren't priced higher because we Sox fans are more interested (for the most part), they're priced higher because more people who aren't Sox fans are inclined to go.

Obviously, the Sox have overestimated the demand relative to pricing. But just because YOU aren't more interested in seeing the Yankees doesn't mean that there isn't higher demand.

I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to figure out. The Sox aren't saying that the Yankees and Red Sox are more important than the Royals. They're saying that more people give a **** about them.

russ99
08-02-2011, 01:01 PM
Not sure if everyone remembers, but the higher prime and premier ticket prices this season were directly resulting from Kenny's need for a higher budget.

So "All In" bit the chairman in the rear twice, we have an underperforming team and tickets are often priced out of everyday fans' range.

LITTLE NELL
08-02-2011, 01:03 PM
I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to figure out. The Sox aren't saying that the Yankees and Red Sox are more important than the Royals. They're saying that more people give a **** about them.

I don't care for the Yankees, Royals, Red Sox or any other team. I'm a White Sox fan and pay to see the White Sox and don't care who they play. When I lived in Chicago I went to a game about twice a month and usually on the spur of the moment. That was before this Premier pricing bull crap. If they had the pricing structure back then that they have now I would not pay the extra $$$ and would only go to the lower price games.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 01:06 PM
I don't care for the Yankees, Royals, Red Sox or any other team. I'm a White Sox fan and pay to see the White Sox and don't care who they play. When I lived in Chicago I went to a game about twice a month and usually on the spur of the moment. That was before this Premier pricing bull crap. If they had the pricing structure back then that they have now I would not pay the extra $$$ and would only go to the lower price games.

THAT'S FINE THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT. I've only gone to a few of the premier games over the years, too; I generally stick to the lower tiered games because you're right, as a Sox fan that's who I want to see but I don't stuff me head up my ass asking why the Sox raise the prices for those games that historically draw very well BECAUSE THE REASON IS ****ING EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 01:12 PM
Not sure if everyone remembers, but the higher prime and premier ticket prices this season were directly resulting from Kenny's need for a higher budget.

So "All In" bit the chairman in the rear twice, we have an underperforming team and tickets are often priced out of everyday fans' range.

That's nonsense, the tiered pricing was a direct result of the demand for those games, it would have happened no matter what... Many other teams have introduced a tiered pricing structure, as well. Look back at the Sox game-by-game attendance since they introduced the tiered pricing and you'll notice those games almost always draw huge crowds, despite the extra money. I'm sure the Sox have at least 1 person in the front office who took an economics class and understand basic supply v. demand. The only thing not having the tiered pricing does it creates a huge secondary market for those high demand games so all that extra cash lines the pockets of some ticket broker. I'd much rather it pay for the product on the field directly.

russ99
08-02-2011, 01:19 PM
That's nonsense, the tiered pricing was a direct result of the demand for those games, it would have happened no matter what... Many other teams have introduced a tiered pricing structure, as well. Look back at the Sox game-by-game attendance since they introduced the tiered pricing and you'll notice those games almost always draw huge crowds, despite the extra money. I'm sure the Sox have at least 1 person in the front office who took an economics class and understand basic supply v. demand. The only thing not having the tiered pricing does it creates a huge secondary market for those high demand games so all that extra cash lines the pockets of some ticket broker. I'd much rather it pay for the product on the field directly.

The tiered pricing has been implemented for a few years.

But the higher prices for those games and additional prime dates this year are due to "All In".

Personally, I'm not going to skip taking my brother to his annual Red Sox game despite the price turning my stomach, but you can be sure I'll go to less unplanned games due to the ticket prices, unless I can get a deal on Stub Hub.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 01:25 PM
The tiered pricing has been implemented for a few years.

But the higher prices for those games and additional prime dates this year are due to "All In".

I'm quite certain there are less premier games this year than last year; aside from the Cubs games, there are 9 other Premier games this year and then the prime games follow the standard weekend games once the weather starts to get nice and school's out. And all of that is off-set by the fact that there are a lot more 1/2 Price Mondays (9) in 2011.


Personally, I'm not going to skip taking my brother to his annual Red Sox game despite the price turning my stomach, but you can be sure I'll go to less unplanned games due to the ticket prices, unless I can get a deal on Stub Hub.

Why the **** would I care?

You realize, of course, that by always going to the Red Sox game and skipping others, you're just feeding into the tiered system and validating why it was put into place, right?

LITTLE NELL
08-02-2011, 01:27 PM
THAT'S FINE THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT. I've only gone to a few of the premier games over the years, too; I generally stick to the lower tiered games because you're right, as a Sox fan that's who I want to see but I don't stuff me head up my ass asking why the Sox raise the prices for those games that historically draw very well BECAUSE THE REASON IS ****ING EASY TO UNDERSTAND.

I understand it but it doesn't mean I have to like it and it seems to me that a lot of other people don't like it either. I know that you are a proponent of this thinking and you think that it makes good business sense but when you start to alienate your fan base it's bad business.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 01:33 PM
Breakdown of Schedule based on Tiered Tickets:

2010
3 Cubs
9 Premier
35 Prime
31 Regular
3 Half Price Mondays

2011
3 Cubs
9 Premier
28 Prime
32 Regular
9 Half Price Mondays

Any more knowledge you want to drop in this thread, russ?

amsteel
08-02-2011, 01:40 PM
Breakdown of Schedule based on Tiered Tickets:

2010
3 Cubs
9 Premier
35 Prime
31 Regular
3 Half Price Mondays

2011
3 Cubs
9 Premier
28 Prime
32 Regular
9 Half Price Mondays

Any more knowledge you want to drop in this thread, russ?


Out of curiosity, can you dig up what the average ticket prices for each of those divisions are/were? That would show what games the Sox assume/expect they are making the biggest haul on. Also to see the impact of dynamic pricing. I would guess the increase in 1/2 price days is offset by dynamic pricing.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 01:44 PM
I understand it but it doesn't mean I have to like it and it seems to me that a lot of other people don't like it either. I know that you are a proponent of this thinking and you think that it makes good business sense but when you start to alienate your fan base it's bad business.

I don't like the tiered pricing, either, but I'd much rather that money I spend on tickets go directly to the team instead of going to some jerk-off broker who is profiting because the Sox are trying to placate people. Tickets to see the Red Sox and Yankees are going to be expensive one way or the other, I'm sorry if you think it's good business sense for the Sox to just leave the money on the table for someone else to scoop up, but we will have to disagree on that point.

The best business move the Sox could make is just win. That makes a lot of complaints go by the wayside.

Every time this thread comes up, I have to do this. Top attended games of 2011 (to date)

38,579 - April 7 vs. Tampa Bay - PREMIER
37,110 - July 25 vs. Detroit - Half Price Monday
36,005 - June 20 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
35,403 - June 22 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
35,115 - June 21 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
33,919 - July 30 vs. Red Sox - PREMIER
31,077 - July 4 vs. Royals - Half Price Monday
31,037 - June 4 vs. Tigers - PRIME
30,055 - July 9 vs. Twins - PRIME
30,042 - July 10 vs. Twins - PRIME
5 of the 6 highest attended games of the year so far were in the most expensive ticket tier. None of the top attended games were in the regular tier.

Dibbs
08-02-2011, 01:46 PM
It might be time to find another marketing guru...

I agree. I'm so sick of this team from top to bottom. Major changes need to be made in all aspects of this organization.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 01:52 PM
I don't like the tiered pricing, either, but I'd much rather that money I spend on tickets go directly to the team instead of going to some jerk-off broker who is profiting because the Sox are trying to placate people. Tickets to see the Red Sox and Yankees are going to be expensive one way or the other, I'm sorry if you think it's good business sense for the Sox to just leave the money on the table for someone else to scoop up, but we will have to disagree on that point.

The best business move the Sox could make is just win. That makes a lot of complaints go by the wayside.

Every time this thread comes up, I have to do this. Top attended games of 2011 (to date)

38,579 - April 7 vs. Tampa Bay - PREMIER
37,110 - July 25 vs. Detroit - Half Price Monday
36,005 - June 20 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
35,403 - June 22 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
35,115 - June 21 vs. Cubs - CUBS/PREMIER
33,919 - July 30 vs. Red Sox - PREMIER
31,077 - July 4 vs. Royals - Half Price Monday
31,037 - June 4 vs. Tigers - PRIME
30,055 - July 9 vs. Twins - PRIME
30,042 - July 10 vs. Twins - PRIME

5 of the 6 highest attended games of the year so far were in the most expensive ticket tier. None of the top attended games were in the regular tier.

Those games are prime/premier because they are well attended, they aren't well attended because they are prime/premier, so I wholly agree with being fine with the high prices set by the Sox since it cuts out the secondary market for the most part. If people are willing to pay 80$ a ticket it might as well go to the team.

kittle42
08-02-2011, 02:02 PM
Those games are prime/premier because they are well attended, they aren't well attended because they are prime/premier, so I wholly agree with being fine with the high prices set by the Sox since it cuts out the secondary market for the most part. If people are willing to pay 80$ a ticket it might as well go to the team.

Exactly, and it really invalidates pretty much all the arguments against it made in this thread and others, except "I don't like it," which cannot really be refuted.

thomas35forever
08-02-2011, 02:05 PM
I'll be honest right now. When my dad purchased tickets at the start of last month, I wanted him to pick the Royals on a Wednesday since I figured the Sox had a better shot of winning. They didn't. We got tickets for the next night against the Twins instead and they lost, so as it turned out, it wouldn't have mattered. Regardless, I like to go to the ballpark to see winning baseball, not what we have going on right now. I also dreaded going to that Twins game because I knew a bunch of their fans were going to be there. I was right and they turned out in big numbers again when I got a free ticket the next night.

I guess what it all boils down to is whether I know I'm going to get a good ballpark experience. That means a good chance at a Sox victory along with the opposing team's fan base not being large enough to make noise throughout the park. I hated hearing a bunch of Twins fans at OUR park since they knew and we knew that their team was likely going to come away with a victory. It's also not fun having to share the L with a bunch of people wearing their garb because it's impossible to avoid them wherever you go. It also sucks hearing the Red Sox and Yankee fans make a bunch of noise on TV. Anyone who could hear but not see the game might think it was at Fenway or in the Bronx. It's sickening to hear to hear other teams' fans take over our park even though us Sox fans are likely the majority. Whoever shouts loudest wins out and unfortunately, we haven't had many opportunities to that ourselves in big home games.

Sorry for the long rant, but I just had to get this off my chest.

Over By There
08-02-2011, 02:18 PM
I was in town last weekend, one of only a handful of opportunities I have to go to the Cell every year. But after seeing the prices for the Red Sox, I decided against it. I think the cheapest available was about $45 a pop, and that was swung way around in the upper tank. Just too much for an average person.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 02:22 PM
Those games are prime/premier because they are well attended, they aren't well attended because they are prime/premier, so I wholly agree with being fine with the high prices set by the Sox since it cuts out the secondary market for the most part. If people are willing to pay 80$ a ticket it might as well go to the team.

Yes, that's my point, despite everyone up in arms over the tiered pricing plans, I'd bet if I looked at the average attendance of the games by tier, the most expensive games would still average the highest fans.

I know people don't like it, I don't like it either, I don't go to many premier ticket games because, as has been reiterated a thousand times already, we're Sox fans so we want to see the Sox. But the Sox have 41 games on their schedule (over 1/2 the home schedule) that are regularly priced or cheaper, so again, I don't think this is as big a problem as people are making it out to be.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
That's nonsense, the tiered pricing was a direct result of the demand for those games, it would have happened no matter what... Many other teams have introduced a tiered pricing structure, as well. Look back at the Sox game-by-game attendance since they introduced the tiered pricing and you'll notice those games almost always draw huge crowds, despite the extra money. I'm sure the Sox have at least 1 person in the front office who took an economics class and understand basic supply v. demand.

Brooks & Co. are too busy hiring 22yr old blonde graphic design artists to work on changing the sleeve patches to market the team. No need to focus on anything important like ticket prices or the third-world atmosphere of the sportsservice concession stands in the upper tank.

Sox Pride.

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-02-2011, 02:36 PM
White Sox dynamic pricing

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/ticketing/dynamic_pricing.jsp?c_id=cws


Stub Hub

http://www.stubhub.com/chicago-white-sox-tickets/white-sox-vs-yankees-8-2-2011-1004140/

Being a weekday series doesn't help....but I believe the Cubs shattered Wrigley records this year when NYY came in for a weekend...and the Cubs are playing a LOT worse than the Sox.

Parking fees may well be factor
The most expensive parking is the New York Yankees ($35), Boston Red Sox ($27), Chicago Cubs ($25) and the Chicago White Sox ($23).

The cheapest parking is the Tampa Bay Rays ($0), Washington Nationals ($5), Detroit Tigers ($5), Minnesota Twins ($6) and the Kansas City Royals ($6) according to Team Marketing Report

https://www.teammarketing.com/public/files/2011_mlb_fci.pdf

The Red Sox and Cubs however have very limited parking, Yankees have no control over the garage prices in the Bronx ( set by city ) and more fans are now using the new Metro-North station that serves Manhattan, Westchester and Connecticut.

IMHO White Sox parking should be $10-15 at most.

It might be time to find another marketing guru...

The Cubs charge the most ($40). I have been to the New Yankee Stadium and their upper level behind the plate cost me $25/ticket. Whoever said the Yankees have more seats that are more expensive is correct but their upper deck and bleachers are better deals than the WSox and face it, they are a better team. I just wish the Sox would let you walk around with a upper level seat. I mean the Yankees do! I am shocked you can buy tickets to see the Yankees now even in the club level. This new pricing sucks. I bought 2 seats in April $57/ticket, 4 days ago they were $50, now $60+ for the SAME seats...***? Stick to the old way where it's not like the stock market where it changes every minute.

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-02-2011, 02:39 PM
I miss 2004... Weekday and weekend prices only.

DSpivack
08-02-2011, 02:44 PM
Yes, that's my point, despite everyone up in arms over the tiered pricing plans, I'd bet if I looked at the average attendance of the games by tier, the most expensive games would still average the highest fans.

I know people don't like it, I don't like it either, I don't go to many premier ticket games because, as has been reiterated a thousand times already, we're Sox fans so we want to see the Sox. But the Sox have 41 games on their schedule (over 1/2 the home schedule) that are regularly priced or cheaper, so again, I don't think this is as big a problem as people are making it out to be.

I have no beef with tiered pricing, it's a response to the demand of tickets and how many will show up to see some of the bigger profile teams.

What I don't like is the lack of affordable tickets at the low end. In this regard it seems the Sox think of themselves as a big-market team that consistently draws high gates, a la the Yankees, Red Sox, or Cubs. Teams with demand on the next step down, if you will, such as the Braves or Reds, have more affordable seats.

Also, while I don't have a problem with tiered pricing, dynamic pricing bothers me. Most teams you can look at their web sites and find out the price of a game, and it will be set when the season starts. The Sox don't have that, one day from the next the price will be different.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 02:58 PM
What I don't like is the lack of affordable tickets at the low end. In this regard it seems the Sox think of themselves as a big-market team that consistently draws high gates, a la the Yankees, Red Sox, or Cubs. Teams with demand on the next step down, if you will, such as the Braves or Reds, have more affordable seats.

Also, while I don't have a problem with tiered pricing, dynamic pricing bothers me. Most teams you can look at their web sites and find out the price of a game, and it will be set when the season starts. The Sox don't have that, one day from the next the price will be different.

I agree 100% with both of these points. Would love to see the bleachers and corners of the Upper Deck get slashed and I hate hate hate dynamic pricing.

Gavin
08-02-2011, 03:06 PM
So, has dynamic pricing ever made seats really cheap or does it only work one way?

ShooterMcGavin
08-02-2011, 03:08 PM
The White Sox have gone from the best ushers in MLB (Andy Frain) to the worst.

The team knows this and there is NOTHING they can do about it. It was part of the stadium deal 20 years ago.

I feel bad for those kids as they have not be trained well.


Fenway, would you elaborate on this topic? I haven't heard anything regarding how the Sox are forced to employ inferior ushers. I agree, they're bad at their jobs, but I don't know the details of the stadium deal you mentioned.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 03:23 PM
So, has dynamic pricing ever made seats really cheap or does it only work one way?

I doubt it would ever make them below face since it would burn the STHs

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2011, 03:53 PM
I really wish the Sox brought back Lady's Night, which they had back in the 90s. We would go to a few of those, and tickets were only for $1 for all female fans. It was great.

But, seriously. I am not following this team any less (I can watch every game at home on TV), but I don't feel this team deserves much of my own money. I've been to 1 game this season, and I didn't even pay for the ticket. I intend on going to no more than a couple more games.

Plus, I need to save all the cash that I can for the winter, because I still want to go to my typical 25 or so Blackhawks games next season.

Fenway
08-02-2011, 03:54 PM
Fenway, would you elaborate on this topic? I haven't heard anything regarding how the Sox are forced to employ inferior ushers. I agree, they're bad at their jobs, but I don't know the details of the stadium deal you mentioned.

The Sox made a deal with an alderman that the ushers would be from the neighborhood. They needed him to sign off on the deal.

bigdommer
08-02-2011, 04:02 PM
I cannot add any insight to USCF pricing as I make it to maybe one game a year as I live on the east coast. However, perhaps this will add some color:

The Sox visit Baltimore next week for a 4 game set. I live about 20 minutes from Camden Yards with traffic, and I have access to a free parking spot 5 blocks away. A good seat will cost me $30-$45 from the box office, but those games will likely draw 15k so I could get it cheaper from scalpers. I make plenty of money and while I like to get the best deal, the price won't stop me from attending and a couple phone calls could probably get me a comped ticket.

I am only going to one game next week, and that is because I have been invited by a close friend who gave me the ticket as a gift. I love going to games and have been following the Sox for 25 years, but I just don't care much to watch these guys. It's just not worth my time and aggravation to see them play in person, especially when I can change the channel on my TV. I love baseball. I played in college, and I still play 2-3 days a week (baseball, not softball), and somehow this team just sucks the life out of me. KW makes excuses, Ozzie throws his guys under the bus, Rios loafs, Dunn sulks, AJ whines, Jake Peavy talks, and Gordon is overmatched. Besides PK, TCQ, and MB, watching these guys play is not worth more energy than changing the channel. It's not about winning and losing. It's not about money. It's not about averages or homeruns. It's about a group of 25 guys, a manager, and a GM who all hate each other, and it shows. My lack of attendance is not a protest, not a complaint, and not for lack of funds. It's a direct reflection of the apathy in which Rios chases a fly ball or Dunn approaches an at bat. I care, same as they probably do, but just not enough to put in any extra effort.

Fenway
08-02-2011, 04:07 PM
I really wish the Sox brought back Lady's Night, which they had back in the 90s. We would go to a few of those, and tickets were only for $1 for all female fans. It was great.



The need to bring back Nun's Day :tongue:

http://i.usatoday.net/sports/gallery/2008/09/27/s080927_whitesox.jpg

Hitmen77
08-02-2011, 04:23 PM
The Sox made a deal with an alderman that the ushers would be from the neighborhood. They needed him to sign off on the deal.

How long are they held to that agreement? It's been 20 years since the park opened - are they held to this ushers deal in perpetuity?

34rancher
08-02-2011, 04:26 PM
And if the Sox were playing 1/2 as well as they could be, this would be a non-issue since 35,000 would have packed the park last night. People don't want to come out to watch bad baseball, which is what the team has provided almost all season long.

This ridiculous "all MLB talent should be equal!" argument gets crazier and crazier every passing series. First, what planet do you live on that the Yankees and Royals are comparable? And second, since the inception of the weighted games, the premier games have generally drawn the best crowds even with the price increase. Sure, there have been missteps (like that Dodgers series last year) but by in large, even with the increased prices, these games draw more fans than others.

And finally, since the Sox have such expensive tickets that really offsets the number of fans in the stands. Sure, pure numbers-wise we're hovering around the middle of the league, but if you factor in the average ticket prices, the Sox are somewhere around 7th or 8th in the league in revenues at the gate, which is really the number I'd expect actual baseball minds to pay attention to.

You think it's ridiculous and I point at the NFL. And the parity makes for #1. It'd also why I gave up my families 6 81 game season tickets a few years for bears tickets, which are actually more expensive. So if any sox exec is reading this, know that they lost a lot of money from my family SOLEY over that pricing discrepancy. Sorry you don't see the royals or Yankees as major league equivalents. The royals are actually hitting better than the Yankees.

amsteel
08-02-2011, 04:30 PM
You think it's ridiculous and I point at the NFL. And the parity makes for #1. It'd also why I gave up my families 6 81 game season tickets a few years for bears tickets, which are actually more expensive. So if any sox exec is reading this, know that they lost a lot of money from my family SOLEY over that pricing discrepancy. Sorry you don't see the royals or Yankees as major league equivalents. The royals are actually hitting better than the Yankees.

Off topic, but how did you just switch and get bears tickets? The waiting list is 15-20 years long unless you buy a PSL on the open market.

Dan H
08-02-2011, 04:33 PM
I consider myself a loyal fan as I have been attending Sox games since 1960. However, I can barely watch this team on TV much less go to the park right now. There have been many worse teams than this one in the past 50 plus years, but this one frustrates me the most. And I remember sitting in old Comiskey when the 1970 Sox flubbed their way to 106 losses. At this point, I just don't feel anything for this club.

Lorenzo Barcelo
08-02-2011, 04:35 PM
I agree 100% with both of these points. Would love to see the bleachers and corners of the Upper Deck get slashed and I hate hate hate dynamic pricing.

Given dynamic pricing, is there really "tiered" pricing anymore. I had no problem with the tiers, but not knowing what the price was for a game day in and day out is aggravating and confusing. When I was looking up bleacher tickets vs. the Twins the price was different for Tuesday compared to Wednesday.

So do "tiers" really exist now? Does half price Monday still exist, because what is it half price of? What a mind****.

daveeym
08-02-2011, 04:45 PM
I really don't understand why this concept is so hard for people to figure out. The Sox aren't saying that the Yankees and Red Sox are more important than the Royals. They're saying that more people give a **** about them.Well they dropped the ball on that issue and were wrong weren't they.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 04:51 PM
I consider myself a loyal fan as I have been attending Sox games since 1960. However, I can barely watch this team on TV much less go to the park right now. There have been many worse teams than this one in the past 50 plus years, but this one frustrates me the most. And I remember sitting in old Comiskey when the 1970 Sox flubbed their way to 106 losses. At this point, I just don't feel anything for this club.

This undercuts the discussion at hand, which is an exceptional synopsis about the perception of the dynamic pricing program, parking rates, and general over-priced ticket situation by the Sox, completely independent of their performance on the field.

I have a feeling that the crowds this past weekend may not have been much different if the Sox were in 1st place by five games.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 04:55 PM
But, seriously. I am not following this team any less (I can watch every game at home on TV), but I don't feel this team deserves much of my own money. I've been to 1 game this season, and I didn't even pay for the ticket. I intend on going to no more than a couple more games.

Again, performance on the field doesn't mean diddly squat when you see the Cell sold out last Monday on half price night. It's obvious there are some economic factors involved here that people aren't accepting. At a certain price point, the Cell could be sold out every night in a fair way that would benefit season ticket holders and single-game buyers. The system is clearly broken right now.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 04:58 PM
So, has dynamic pricing ever made seats really cheap or does it only work one way?

Excellent question. When I first saw this introduced by the Giants a couple of years ago, the idea was to lower ticket prices significantly before games to allow people to attend when there weren't as many sold tickets as the team expected. It would also give the team the option of increasing ticket prices for games that were almost sold out.

The Sox seem to be treating the program in the exact opposite way. Thousands of empty/available seats for Boston, and dynamic prices apparently went up. :scratch:

DSpivack
08-02-2011, 05:00 PM
Excellent question. When I first saw this introduced by the Giants a couple of years ago, the idea was to lower ticket prices significantly before games to allow people to attend when there weren't as many sold tickets as the team expected. It would also give the team the option of increasing ticket prices for games that were almost sold out.

The Sox seem to be treating the program in the exact opposite way. Thousands of empty/available seats for Boston, and dynamic prices apparently went up. :scratch:

Yeah, I don't get that, either. I understand not wanting to piss off the season ticket base, but if you compare the dynamic pricing for the White Sox with the price of those same games on StubHub, they're not similar. That seems to go against the whole point of having dynamic pricing itself.

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2011, 05:05 PM
Again, performance on the field doesn't mean diddly squat when you see the Cell sold out last Monday on half price night. It's obvious there are some economic factors involved here that people aren't accepting. At a certain price point, the Cell could be sold out every night in a fair way that would benefit season ticket holders and single-game buyers. The system is clearly broken right now.
ONE sell out doesn't mean diddly squat in the grand scheme of things if you want to argue that it predominantly has to do with economic factors! If that argument held any water, then where are other Monday sell-outs? Sox fans have every opportunity to go on places like StubHub to get tickets at a significantly discounted cost, and even those aren't selling like hot cakes. There are far more posts here have voiced their thoughts saying that the current team's lackluster performance has been a major reason why they are staying out of the ballpark. If you really think that the lack of attendance has very little to do with the apathetic performances, then you're crazy, and I cannot help you.

BainesHOF
08-02-2011, 05:25 PM
There were 823 more people per game at the Detroit series than the Boston series, not a huge difference (~2.6%). And from the sounds of it around here there are a chunk of people that didn't go because they were playing Boston, not because prices were too high.

I thought the gap was wider, but the Detroit series still drew 92,181 over Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday while the Boston series drew 89,7101 over Friday, Saturday and Sunday.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 06:13 PM
ONE sell out doesn't mean diddly squat in the grand scheme of things if you want to argue that it predominantly has to do with economic factors! If that argument held any water, then where are other Monday sell-outs? Sox fans have every opportunity to go on places like StubHub to get tickets at a significantly discounted cost, and even those aren't selling like hot cakes. There are far more posts here have voiced their thoughts saying that the current team's lackluster performance has been a major reason why they are staying out of the ballpark. If you really think that the lack of attendance has very little to do with the apathetic performances, then you're crazy, and I cannot help you.

:rolling:

I'm trying to recall what the excuses were before the season even began when season ticket sales were down after the Dunn, AJ and Konerko signings.

Fenway
08-02-2011, 06:51 PM
How long are they held to that agreement? It's been 20 years since the park opened - are they held to this ushers deal in perpetuity?

I have no idea - but I sense trying to get out of agreement would cause the team an even bigger headache.

socko82
08-02-2011, 07:22 PM
Granted you had a half price Monday in there but if you look at the last 3 series and take away all the Tiger, Yankee and Red Sox fans how many people are actually showing up at this point to see the White Sox? 15K a game?

ShooterMcGavin
08-02-2011, 07:22 PM
The Sox made a deal with an alderman that the ushers would be from the neighborhood. They needed him to sign off on the deal.

That explains a lot.

LITTLE NELL
08-02-2011, 07:42 PM
Question... I've been down in Florida for 18 years and Stub Hub and dynamic pricing were not around when I lived up there. I have no idea how they work, can someone explain.

SoxandtheCityTee
08-02-2011, 07:58 PM
Stub Hub is a website where people can re-sell their tickets -- sports, concerts, whatever -- for whatever they want to charge. The site takes a slice off the seller's price as their fee.

LITTLE NELL
08-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Stub Hub is a website where people can re-sell their tickets -- sports, concerts, whatever -- for whatever they want to charge. The site takes a slice off the seller's price as their fee.

If you get more for the ticket than face value, is that not scalping?

soxfanreggie
08-02-2011, 08:05 PM
The cheapest parking is the Tampa Bay Rays ($0), Washington Nationals ($5), Detroit Tigers ($5), Minnesota Twins ($6) and the Kansas City Royals ($6) according to Team Marketing Report


Rays are only free if there are 4 or more in the car.

Johnny Mostil
08-02-2011, 08:17 PM
If you get more for the ticket than face value, is that not scalping?

Yes, but it's now legal.

FoulTerritory
08-02-2011, 08:29 PM
Many games are over-priced, given the economy, and the Sox are, as currently assembled, not an overly likable team, and even on top of that I want to mention that the atmosphere at the Ballpark sucks compared to what it used to be.

All of the sound effects and scoreboard games and canned music, jeesh. Even on TV it sounds more like an arcade in the background than a ballgame. Plus, they don't even seem to let the new organist play much, and they've taken away the singing of Kiss Him Goodbye after homeruns and wins, which I think was perhaps our most enjoyable unifying tradition. It was cheesy, but there was a sort of collective joy to look forward to in singing that song after homers and victories. Now the new organist only plays it about once a week when a pitcher is pulled which seems more like rubbing things in than celebration.

My point is, these days there is a lack of quality evident from the big things, to the little things. There is a feel that they are desperately pandering to the masses in many ways as opposed to developing a team and ballpark experience conducive to long-term success.

I mean, they even took away the sock patch on the road unis. No big deal in and of itself, but sometimes these little decisions start to look like a microcosm of a larger problem with the organization.

And yes, to the larger point of the thread. Come on . . . the economy is in the tank still and they charge like 90 bucks for lower outfield reserved for Cubs. Not many people are going to pay that right now.

Red Barchetta
08-02-2011, 08:43 PM
Many games are over-priced, given the economy, and the Sox are, as currently assembled, not an overly likable team, and even on top of that I want to mention that the atmosphere at the Ballpark sucks compared to what it used to be.

All of the sound effects and scoreboard games and canned music, jeesh. Even on TV it sounds more like an arcade in the background than a ballgame. Plus, they don't even seem to let the new organist play much, and they've taken away the singing of Kiss Him Goodbye after homeruns and wins, which I think was perhaps our most enjoyable unifying tradition. It was cheesy, but there was a sort of collective joy to look forward to in singing that song after homers and victories. Now the new organist only plays it about once a week when a pitcher is pulled which seems more like rubbing things in than celebration.

My point is, these days there is a lack of quality evident from the big things, to the little things. There is a feel that they are desperately pandering to the masses in many ways as opposed to developing a team and ballpark experience conducive to long-term success.

I mean, they even took away the sock patch on the road unis. No big deal in and of itself, but sometimes these little decisions start to look like a microcosm of a larger problem with the organization.

And yes, to the larger point of the thread. Come on . . . the economy is in the tank still and they charge like 90 bucks for lower outfield reserved for Cubs. Not many people are going to pay that right now.

A lot of the ballpark atmosphere comments you made are a direct result of the influence of Brooks Boyer. I never liked the "outdoor basketball game" atmosphere.

Brian26
08-02-2011, 08:55 PM
A lot of the ballpark atmosphere comments you made are a direct result of the influence of Brooks Boyer. I never liked the "outdoor basketball game" atmosphere.

Brooks struck gold when he arrived in mid-2004 with the perfect storm handed to him on a silver platter. He did a lot of things right for about two years.

TommyGavinFloyd
08-02-2011, 09:02 PM
I quit even going to the Sox website to buy tickets once I realized that "dynamic pricing" pretty much just means ****ty games will only have their prices raised a little over what the listed price of the section is, and "good" games will be a solid 20 bucks higher per ticket. The only way I'm buying a ticket these days is on Stubhub.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:13 PM
You think it's ridiculous and I point at the NFL. And the parity makes for #1. It'd also why I gave up my families 6 81 game season tickets a few years for bears tickets, which are actually more expensive. So if any sox exec is reading this, know that they lost a lot of money from my family SOLEY over that pricing discrepancy. Sorry you don't see the royals or Yankees as major league equivalents. The royals are actually hitting better than the Yankees.

Oh well then the probably 400-win difference between the two teams over the past decade is meaningless because the Royals are hitting better than the Yankees in 2011. That's a brilliant point.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:19 PM
Well they dropped the ball on that issue and were wrong weren't they.

Did you miss the post that showed that 5 of the 6 highest attended games were in the highest price tier?

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:23 PM
And yes, to the larger point of the thread. Come on . . . the economy is in the tank still and they charge like 90 bucks for lower outfield reserved for Cubs. Not many people are going to pay that right now.

Totally except for the fact that the lower bowl for the Cubs game was basically at capacity all three games, right? The Cell was 95% sold out for the three most expensive games of the season.

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2011, 09:27 PM
I quit even going to the Sox website to buy tickets once I realized that "dynamic pricing" pretty much just means ****ty games will only have their prices raised a little over what the listed price of the section is, and "good" games will be a solid 20 bucks higher per ticket. The only way I'm buying a ticket these days is on Stubhub.
I haven't been to the box office at all this year. Does the "dynamic" pricing only apply to Ticketmaster, or does it also apply to buying tickets at the box office? If the previous, then couldn't you just get your tickets from the box office? It's not like you'd be unable to get tickets anyhow.

FoulTerritory
08-02-2011, 09:34 PM
Totally except for the fact that the lower bowl for the Cubs game was basically at capacity all three games, right? The Cell was 95% sold out for the three most expensive games of the season.

Yes, perhaps my specific example there wasn't the best, but my larger point is that the drop in attendance is, in my opinion, not because of a single factor but rather a combination of ticket-price vs. economy, quality of team, and ballpark atmosphere.

doublem23
08-02-2011, 09:36 PM
Yes, perhaps my specific example there wasn't the best, but my larger point is that the drop in attendance is, in my opinion, not because of a single factor but rather a combination of ticket-price vs. economy, quality of team, and ballpark atmosphere.

Absolutely, though I do feel the "ballpark atmosphere" part is a bit exaggerated.

voodoochile
08-02-2011, 09:46 PM
If you get more for the ticket than face value, is that not scalping?

They beat that in court a long time ago. The extra charge is considered a service fee. I'm free to charge any level of service fee I choose for providing another person with the ticket.

TommyGavinFloyd
08-02-2011, 10:23 PM
I haven't been to the box office at all this year. Does the "dynamic" pricing only apply to Ticketmaster, or does it also apply to buying tickets at the box office? If the previous, then couldn't you just get your tickets from the box office? It's not like you'd be unable to get tickets anyhow.

You could be right on that, I'm not sure. I always like to buy tickets ahead of time, so I never actually go to the box office, I just do it online.

Btw, just checked whitesox.com for tomorrow's game, the far corners of the upper deck are $41 a ticket. "You gotta be bleepin' me". No shock there was only 21,000 or so tonight (although a part of that is the weather).

chisoxfanatic
08-02-2011, 10:28 PM
You could be right on that, I'm not sure. I always like to buy tickets ahead of time, so I never actually go to the box office, I just do it online.

Btw, just checked whitesox.com for tomorrow's game, the far corners of the upper deck are $41 a ticket. "You gotta be bleepin' me". No shock there was only 21,000 or so tonight (although a part of that is the weather).
If they are going to have this "dynamic" ticket pricing on whitesox.com, then why don't they also consider recent attendance trends as well? It doesn't seem like they do so, or that wouldn't be the cost of the upper corner seats!

TommyGavinFloyd
08-02-2011, 11:09 PM
If they are going to have this "dynamic" ticket pricing on whitesox.com, then why don't they also consider recent attendance trends as well? It doesn't seem like they do so, or that wouldn't be the cost of the upper corner seats!

Yeah I looked for the next homestand against the Royals and those same seats are $27. Now part of that is that this Yankees series is Premier (don't really agree with that either) but come on. You all watch/go to the games, there probably will be about 3 people in that section if any. Yet their commercials still advertise "Tickets start at $12". Stubhub is the way to go, but still, this makes me not want to go at all (and that's without factoring in the bad baseball.).

Hitmen77
08-03-2011, 07:35 AM
This undercuts the discussion at hand, which is an exceptional synopsis about the perception of the dynamic pricing program, parking rates, and general over-priced ticket situation by the Sox, completely independent of their performance on the field.

I have a feeling that the crowds this past weekend may not have been much different if the Sox were in 1st place by five games.

I really disagree with this. Are you saying that, if the Sox were rolling and in 1st by 5 games that they'd still be drawing only 25k or so for games vs. the Yankees or Red Sox? I just find that hard to believe.

Yes, the high pricing of the top tier under dynamic pricing is a factor, but there is no way that this year's lousy, uninspired play isn't part of the problem.

chisoxfanatic
08-03-2011, 08:25 AM
I really disagree with this. Are you saying that, if the Sox were rolling and in 1st by 5 games that they'd still be drawing only 25k or so for games vs. the Yankees or Red Sox? I just find that hard to believe.

Yes, the high pricing of the top tier under dynamic pricing is a factor, but there is no way that this year's lousy, uninspired play isn't part of the problem.
And it isn't just part of the problem, it's the definite majority of the problem.

There are plenty of Sox fans that are very well off economically who would be able to offset those who are suffering economic hardships if this team were actually playing with heart. Truth of the matter is, the Sox have always been a team who has had to rely heavily on non-season ticket buyers. Sox fans take the "wait and see" approach when deciding if they are going to buy tickets. When the team plays poorly, the numbers are going to decline.

Golden Sox
08-03-2011, 08:27 AM
Being a season ticket holder, my package had 2 of the Cubs games. Each ticket was $50. If I wanted to attend the third Cubs game, with Dynamic Pricing each ticket would of cost $103. I took a pass on the third game because of the cost. Last but not least, I have been and always will be The Worlds Biggest White Sox Fan, and I wish that this season was over with.This team has been disheartening to watch. If this team doesn"t hit a home run, it needs 4 hits in an inning to score a run. This offseason should be more interesting than the present season has been.

Fenway
08-03-2011, 08:27 AM
So many factors at play..

The upper deck is a 'hard sell' for a variety of reasons.

A couple of years ago you could get cheap flights from New England into Chicago at the last minute - not any more.

For local fans gas prices and then parking scares off others. While the Metra connection from Joliet will help a little - public transportation from the bulk of the areas Sox fans live just don't exist or the connections so cumbersome people won't bother.

BUT - and let's keep in mind that WSI and other fan sites are a tiny percentage of the fanbase. JR made a cocky mistake last spring by taunting the fans to show up or else. You got to wonder if he allows himself to say things like that on radio - what does he tell his staff behind closed doors???

Attendance this year was hurt by horrible (even by Chicago standards) weather - a long Bulls run and lackluster play.

For JR to suggest the team is hurting financially is an insult. The 100 CSN games bring in 45 million alone and since he has owned the team since 1981 NO DEBT SERVICE.

From a baseball standpoint if he wants to keep KW and Ozzie fine - he signs the checks - but to keep the hitting coach on is amazing - Greg Walker would have been fired by any other MLB team by now - if nothing else bring in Walt Hriniak (what harm could he do?)

daveeym
08-03-2011, 08:27 AM
Did you miss the post that showed that 5 of the 6 highest attended games were in the highest price tier?

And minus the cubs and opening day, all unique games with obvious reasons as to why they sold out, did you notice how those games still had piss poor attendance when they normally would be sold out? Face it has been an abysmal failure due to a variety of factors.

Jerko
08-03-2011, 09:08 AM
At least the Sox premiere games (outside of the Cubs) are based on quality of the team they play and not the day of the week. Hawks have premiere games against such powerhouses as Columbus (2), Islanders, Panthers, Avs (2), and Toronto this year. I know it's apples and oranges but it could be worse (i.e., premiere games against Seattle because it's a Friday or Saturday).

doublem23
08-03-2011, 09:10 AM
At least the Sox premiere games (outside of the Cubs) are based on what team they play and not the day of the week. Hawks have premiere games against such powerhouses as Columbus (2), Islanders, Panthers, Avs (2), and Toronto this year. I know it's apples and oranges but it could be worse (i.e., premiere games against Seattle because it's a Friday or Saturday).

Yeah that only happens once this year, the Sox have a premier game against the Rangers because it's a Friday night, I'm guessing, just to keep it at 9 premier dates this season.

Hitmen77
08-03-2011, 09:17 AM
Yeah that only happens once this year, the Sox have a premier game against the Rangers because it's a Friday night, I'm guessing, just to keep it at 9 premier dates this season.

It's Elvis Night.

Jerko
08-03-2011, 09:17 AM
Yeah that only happens once this year, the Sox have a premier game against the Rangers because it's a Friday night, I'm guessing, just to keep it at 9 premier dates this season.

LOL I forgot about Elvis night. That's always a premiere no matter the opponent.

Milw
08-03-2011, 09:42 AM
And it isn't just part of the problem, it's the definite majority of the problem.

There are plenty of Sox fans that are very well off economically who would be able to offset those who are suffering economic hardships if this team were actually playing with heart. Truth of the matter is, the Sox have always been a team who has had to rely heavily on non-season ticket buyers. Sox fans take the "wait and see" approach when deciding if they are going to buy tickets. When the team plays poorly, the numbers are going to decline.
I had tickets to two games of the Red Sox series and I'm going tonight to the Yankees. In all three cases, I don't actually WANT to go, but I'm going because I don't want to waste the tickets (which I bought back in those much more optimistic days of March). Watching this current Sox team simply isn't fun. A handful of individual players aside, as a club they are boring, frustrating and just unlikeable.

For me, at least, tickets could be $10 and I still wouldn't go. I'm as big a Sox fan as anyone, but there simply is no joy on the South Side these days.

doublem23
08-03-2011, 09:42 AM
It's Elvis Night.

LOL I forgot about Elvis night. That's always a premiere no matter the opponent.

Nice, as you can see, I only care about Mullet Night

kittle42
08-03-2011, 09:59 AM
For me, at least, tickets could be $10 and I still wouldn't go. I'm as big a Sox fan as anyone, but there simply is no joy on the South Side these days.

Totally agree. I passed up chances to go for free this week with excellent tickets. I simply don't care. This is sad to say, but if I want to see a baseball game right now, I'd probably just scalp a ticket at Wrigley since I live three blocks away.

There have been far, far worse Sox teams since my fandom began in 1984, but this one is my least favorite. I'm a season ticket holder and still have only attended 6 games at the Cell this year. Most seasons, I'd be in the 15-20 range by now.

Jerko
08-03-2011, 10:06 AM
I still go just to go. Good way to kill a weekday afternoon or a Sunday. But yeah, I don't get as into it as used to. As a wise person said on this very site; "Love the Sox, hate this team". They seem like the Bill Callahan "dumbest team in America" Raiders. They just don't adjust.

chisoxfanatic
08-03-2011, 10:19 AM
I had tickets to two games of the Red Sox series and I'm going tonight to the Yankees. In all three cases, I don't actually WANT to go, but I'm going because I don't want to waste the tickets (which I bought back in those much more optimistic days of March). Watching this current Sox team simply isn't fun. A handful of individual players aside, as a club they are boring, frustrating and just unlikeable.

For me, at least, tickets could be $10 and I still wouldn't go. I'm as big a Sox fan as anyone, but there simply is no joy on the South Side these days.
I never understood why Sox fans even need to buy tickets before the season begins, unless it's the home opener. Tickets are always available. Did you buy those tickets in March because you thought they would be hard to come by?

From my standpoint, I like waiting until closer to game day to decide if I will go. Heck, I've lived just a mile from the ballpark for the past 7 seasons and have literally gone to games on a whim, making a decision to go just a half hour before the first pitch and have been in my seat before the opening montage.

I totally agree with your last point. Heck, I don't even feel like going to the Blackhawks' Night game (and everyone here knows how much I idolize the Blackhawks).

KyWhiSoxFan
08-03-2011, 10:28 AM
To create some excitement, the Sox need to have a burn your disco record night.

Milw
08-03-2011, 11:05 AM
I never understood why Sox fans even need to buy tickets before the season begins, unless it's the home opener. Tickets are always available. Did you buy those tickets in March because you thought they would be hard to come by?

From my standpoint, I like waiting until closer to game day to decide if I will go. Heck, I've lived just a mile from the ballpark for the past 7 seasons and have literally gone to games on a whim, making a decision to go just a half hour before the first pitch and have been in my seat before the opening montage.

I totally agree with your last point. Heck, I don't even feel like going to the Blackhawks' Night game (and everyone here knows how much I idolize the Blackhawks).
Several reasons for buying early. I purchased an Ozzie Plan, which means discounted tickets and better seats than I'd get if I bought later. It also locks those dates in my calendar well in advance, which is a big deal for the wife, who works crazy unpredictable hours. And with dynamic pricing now, it incents early buying because the tickets I bought in March for $35 or whatever now cost like $55. Had the team been what I expected they'd be, I'd have been happy with the early purchase.

Plus, I felt at the time that I was doing my part as a fan in buying tickets to support JR's big offseason spending.

doublem23
08-03-2011, 11:08 AM
Several reasons for buying early. I purchased an Ozzie Plan, which means discounted tickets and better seats than I'd get if I bought later. It also locks those dates in my calendar well in advance, which is a big deal for the wife, who works crazy unpredictable hours. And with dynamic pricing now, it incents early buying because the tickets I bought in March for $35 or whatever now cost like $55. Had the team been what I expected they'd be, I'd have been happy with the early purchase.

Plus, I felt at the time that I was doing my part as a fan in buying tickets to support JR's big offseason spending.

All excellent points. Hell, even with this disastrous season, I'm still thinking about getting an Ozzie Plan (hopefully renamed the Dave Martinez Plan or whatever next season) at least next year for the reasons you mention. Really, the only reason I didn't this year is because Ms. Doub and I were engaged last October and are getting married this November, so for that 13-month span, I am perpetually broke.

Hitmen77
08-03-2011, 11:17 AM
So many factors at play..

The upper deck is a 'hard sell' for a variety of reasons.

A couple of years ago you could get cheap flights from New England into Chicago at the last minute - not any more.

For local fans gas prices and then parking scares off others. While the Metra connection from Joliet will help a little - public transportation from the bulk of the areas Sox fans live just don't exist or the connections so cumbersome people won't bother.

BUT - and let's keep in mind that WSI and other fan sites are a tiny percentage of the fanbase. JR made a cocky mistake last spring by taunting the fans to show up or else. You got to wonder if he allows himself to say things like that on radio - what does he tell his staff behind closed doors???

Attendance this year was hurt by horrible (even by Chicago standards) weather - a long Bulls run and lackluster play.

For JR to suggest the team is hurting financially is an insult. The 100 CSN games bring in 45 million alone and since he has owned the team since 1981 NO DEBT SERVICE.

From a baseball standpoint if he wants to keep KW and Ozzie fine - he signs the checks - but to keep the hitting coach on is amazing - Greg Walker would have been fired by any other MLB team by now - if nothing else bring in Walt Hriniak (what harm could he do?)

:clap:

It might be an interesting separate discussion about the upper deck issues and possible ways to improve that. But I don't want to turn this thread into a discussion about that. The early season bad weather/'school is in session" issues will always be around until overall demand rebounds. But this really shouldn't be a factor in summer games. And, yes, high costs of going to a game (especially for "premier" games) in a tight economy certainly hurts. But that being said, I think a lot of fans are just fed up with the way this team plays.

There certainly have been seasons where the Sox had a worse record, but despite being close to .500, this is one of the most maddening and uninspiring Sox teams I can remember. What I'm fed up with is the year after year of under achieving while the Sox management team seem to be unaccountable.

Ozzie just opens his mouth and says bull**** and it totally means nothing. Things will change, we won't tolerate this, etc....but it's not true. Rios is going to be benched.....for one day! Ozzie should also shut his ****ing mouth about the fans. Yeah, fans are harsh and some will complain no matter what. Big deal - THEY'RE FANS! Get over it and stop worry about what Sox fans are saying and stop insulting Sox fans with your "piss on a statue"-type comments. But all I hear is that it's just "Ozzie being Ozzie".

Our offense is pathetic, but Walker's job is beyond reproach. The Sox year after year (and with different players) keep getting shut down by bad pitchers and the excuse is "what are you going to do?" and "it happens to every team".

Several years after having a "shake up", our farm system is as abysmal as ever...and yet, I have no sense that the Sox will change anything to improve their farm system. KW's best trades are from 3 or 4 years ago. Now he's trading away talent like Gio and Hudson for 1 year busts who are then traded for nobodies.

In the end, the only ones who JR has put on notice this year are the fans. Show up or else we'll blow this baby up. Seriously, do you expect fans to spend a couple hundred dollars to take a family to a game after putting up with this crap?

WHITE SOX BASEBALL: Only the Fans Are Accountable! :angry:

Fenway
08-03-2011, 11:45 AM
'The atmosphere here in Chicago is as strange as I ever felt at a ballpark. The fans are watching in silence which is even worse than having empty seats.'

Suzyn Waldman - WCBS Radio during the 4th inning last night.

Milw
08-03-2011, 11:47 AM
WHITE SOX BASEBALL: Only the Fans Are Accountable! :angry:
I think you just summed it up. I've got no problem being held accountable as a fan--I did my part by buying an Ozzie Plan, and it's perfectly reasonable for the organization to ask for support from the fanbase. But that's a two-way street. I honestly feel abandoned in a way by the Sox at this point, because there has literally been ZERO accountability from top to bottom in this organization ever since 2005.

I have emotionally checked out of this season. The sad part is, the Sox themselves beat me to it.

captain54
08-03-2011, 11:51 AM
'The atmosphere here in Chicago is as strange as I ever felt at a ballpark. The fans are watching in silence which is even worse than having empty seats.'

Suzyn Waldman - WCBS Radio during the 4th inning last night.

My GF, (who goes to about 1 game every 4 yrs, and knows absolutely NOTHING about baseball) commented during a game we went to earlier this year.

"These guys seem really bad...don't they ever get any hits?"

Jerko
08-03-2011, 11:54 AM
I kind of agree with whoever said something about the atmosphere at the park being a reason numbers are down. I know I can decide to "not go", but when I DO go, and see Rios playing, or Dunn batting 4th vs a lefty, I feel like I'm paying to be force-fed ****. Also, and I know this is a money saving thing, but half of the stands on the lower deck are CLOSED, adorned by signs that tell you to go elsewhere if you want something. It's like they can't wait until we leave. And not to be mean, but the organist either only knows one song or they all sound the same. OMG I'm a masochist.

Nelfox02
08-03-2011, 12:05 PM
My GF, (who goes to about 1 game every 4 yrs, and knows absolutely NOTHING about baseball) commented during a game we went to earlier this year.

"These guys seem really bad...don't they ever get any hits?"


sox typically do a decent job getting hits......its the getting runs part that is agonizingly difficult

LITTLE NELL
08-03-2011, 12:19 PM
sox typically do a decent job getting hits......its the getting runs part that is agonizingly difficult

How do you figure the Sox are doing a decent job at getting hits? They are 13th in the A.L in batting average. Doesn't help that they are 13th in walks either.
I wonder how Ozzie's career as a player plays out in all this, he used to swing at anything and walked at the most about 25 times a year. I'm wondering what message he is conveying to the players? Does he tell them to be selective or does he tell them to go to plate and hack away like he did.
Of course with the great hitting coach we have, Ozzie might be leaving it all in Walker's hands.

JB98
08-03-2011, 12:22 PM
'The atmosphere here in Chicago is as strange as I ever felt at a ballpark. The fans are watching in silence which is even worse than having empty seats.'

Suzyn Waldman - WCBS Radio during the 4th inning last night.

I've been to 12 games this season, and that's been the feeling in the ballpark for a handful of them. The fans expect to lose, and as soon as the Sox fall behind, you know they are incapable of rallying. The team has done nothing to make you feel otherwise.

I think both economic factors and the poor play on the field are at work as far as the sagging attendance goes. The Sox are 24-30 at home this year. I have to wonder how many "casual fans" have gone to a game, witnessed the boring style of play and felt the ho-hum atmosphere and vowed not to return for the rest of the season.

There is at the very least a perceived lack of energy in the dugout, on the field and in the stands at the Cell this year.

Lip Man 1
08-03-2011, 12:29 PM
And as you said JB, why should the fans who do go feel any different?

They are "all in" with the idea that JR's best intentions have blown up because of Kenny, Ozzie, the coaching staff and many of the players.

Compounding the problem and this IS JR's "fault" is that he did nothing to change the dynamics when there was still time. Massive changes should have been made in May at least to the field staff.

Again typical White Sox "luck" has shown up at absolutely one of the worst possible times for the franchise.

Lip

JB98
08-03-2011, 12:33 PM
And as you said JB, why should the fans who do go feel any different?

They are "all in" with the idea that JR's best intentions have blown up because of Kenny, Ozzie, the coaching staff and many of the players.

Compounding the problem and this IS JR's "fault" is that he did nothing to change the dynamics when there was still time. Massive changes should have been made in May at least to the field staff.

Lip

Lip, I saw Sox fans filing out with the team behind 4-3 in the seventh on Sunday. There was just a feeling in the stands that the outcome had been decided, even though it was just a one-run game. And that's not the first time I've seen that this year. I think people feel the team has quit. Whether that's true or not is a matter of debate, but I believe a number of fans have that perception.

tacosalbarojas
08-03-2011, 12:50 PM
Brooks & Co. are too busy hiring 22yr old blonde graphic design artists to work on changing the sleeve patches to market the team. No need to focus on anything important like ticket prices or the third-world atmosphere of the sportsservice concession stands in the upper tank.

Sox Pride.Exactly. Your comment reminds me of the time last summer where one of the dumbed down trivia questions was about who was known as the Polish Prince. Chick on the mic mispronounced Polish...no joke.

TomBradley72
08-03-2011, 12:50 PM
Lip, I saw Sox fans filing out with the team behind 4-3 in the seventh on Sunday. There was just a feeling in the stands that the outcome had been decided, even though it was just a one-run game. And that's not the first time I've seen that this year. I think people feel the team has quit. Whether that's true or not is a matter of debate, but I believe a number of fans have that perception.

It's been that way all year- the ONLY two games all year I can remember there being any energy at all in the park was the HR robbing catch by Lillibridge when Danks was pitching and the "balk off" night when Adam Dunn tipped his cap to the crowd- other than that dull, lifeless, stale, uninpsiring baseball- as bad as 2007 but without any injuries being part of the problem.

I went to 2 games in April- and have zero interest in going back- normally I'd want to go just to see baseball and enjoy a day/night at the park- but it would only be a 4-5 hour investment (with travel) in being frustrated and annoyed- so I'm probably done for the season.

Lucky I live as close to Miller Park as I do to the Cell- so there's good baseball to be seen.

Chez
08-03-2011, 12:54 PM
I'm in a full-season ticket group and usually go to around 20 games per year. I have tickets to 5-6 more games and I intend to go to every game I have tickets for. Why? Because as frustrating as this season has been (still way short of the frustration level reached in 1984), I still love going -- it's fun. I'm frustrated with the lack of attendence, but understand why many choose to stay away. How do teams like the Rockies and Twins (even taking their new stadium into account) draw so well in the midst of equally frustrating seasons?

I think those of you who think that this team will get blown-up and disassembled if you stop showing up are wrong -- actually delusional. There is too much money tied up in long-term contracts. We are stuck with Dunn, Rios, Peavy (Paulie too). So if you don't want to go, fine don't go. But you are kidding yourself if you think your boycott will result in changes to the roster. The only changes will be for the worse -- good, desirable players with middling contracts will get dumped/traded for inferior, cheaper players. It won't be Rios or Dunn who get dumped. It will be players like Thornton or Quentin or Crain -- players you would want on your team if you you were trying to win something and money was not an issue.

I don't blame Reinsdorf for the current situation. He went out and put his money where his mouth is (Dunn, Paulie, AJ, Crain etc). I don't blame KW -- nearly everyone in the media and the fans (especially those on WSI) thought signing Dunn was a master stroke. He put together a roster that, had everyone performed to their career norms, would have a comfortable divisional lead right now. I don't even blame Ozzie. When the guys who were projected to hit 3d and 4th for you this year have given you virtually no production for 4 full months, there aren't many ways out of that mess. This season's apparent failure falls squarely on the shoulders of Dunn and Rios and really no one else.

It's probably just the nature of the game, but after the Sox beat Boston on Friday night, I really thought things were heading in the right direction. That was only four games ago! I haven't given up hope (such is the nature of being a fan) but after every loss, I say to myself, "[self] if we can only get Dunn or Rios going . . ." This is the first time all year that I've begun to think that it just may not happen for either of them this season. We can't win without them -- it really is just that simple.

Regardless, I'll continue to watch and hope.

captain54
08-03-2011, 01:13 PM
sox typically do a decent job getting hits......its the getting runs part that is agonizingly difficult

to an unknowlegable person and someone who doesn't follow the sport or any sport for that matter, there's no difference between runs and hits..

the whole point is, someone who doesn't even follow baseball and wouldn't even know what direction to run the bases can tell that someting is wrong.

JB98
08-03-2011, 01:17 PM
It's been that way all year- the ONLY two games all year I can remember there being any energy at all in the park was the HR robbing catch by Lillibridge when Danks was pitching and the "balk off" night when Adam Dunn tipped his cap to the crowd- other than that dull, lifeless, stale, uninpsiring baseball- as bad as 2007 but without any injuries being part of the problem.

I went to 2 games in April- and have zero interest in going back- normally I'd want to go just to see baseball and enjoy a day/night at the park- but it would only be a 4-5 hour investment (with travel) in being frustrated and annoyed- so I'm probably done for the season.

Lucky I live as close to Miller Park as I do to the Cell- so there's good baseball to be seen.

Yeah, the Crew are playing well at home this year, unlike the Sox. It's been a little baffling this season -- I think it's fairly tolerable to watch the Sox road games on television. However, they play so horribly at home. The Cell is a hitter's dream, but the offensive problems of this team seem to be more acute at home.

Fenway
08-03-2011, 01:25 PM
JR back in May was pre-occupied with his Bulls

The way the White Sox shrugged off the Dave Wilder fiasco speaks volumes....passing it off as 'one bad apple'. Somebody on 35th St had to know what was going on and if not should have.

Logic says heads will roll unless this team wakes up in the final 8 weeks...

Would it be the worst move in the world to make Steve Stone the next GM?






And as you said JB, why should the fans who do go feel any different?

They are "all in" with the idea that JR's best intentions have blown up because of Kenny, Ozzie, the coaching staff and many of the players.

Compounding the problem and this IS JR's "fault" is that he did nothing to change the dynamics when there was still time. Massive changes should have been made in May at least to the field staff.

Again typical White Sox "luck" has shown up at absolutely one of the worst possible times for the franchise.

Lip

Milw
08-03-2011, 01:35 PM
How do teams like the Rockies and Twins (even taking their new stadium into account) draw so well in the midst of equally frustrating seasons?

I think those of you who think that this team will get blown-up and disassembled if you stop showing up are wrong -- actually delusional.
There are two reasons some teams (Rockies and Twins being two) that can draw well despite disappointing seasons. Firstly, in those cities, the competition for your entertainment attention and dollars are much more limited than in Chicago. There's a million other things I could do on any given night than go to a ballgame; that's not quite as true in smaller cities. Secondly, the Twins and Rockies are actually somewhat fun to watch, despite their losing. As others have mentioned, this Sox team is nowhere near as bad as some Sox teams of the past... but they're just not very interesting. They're a lifeless bunch who make the same dumb mistakes over and over again. I don't need or want to watch that.

As for your second point, I'm fully aware that my not attending more games won't affect the chances that this team gets blown up. That in itself is part of the frustration, but more to the point, that's not why I'm not going--I'm not going as a boycott. I'm not going because it's not fun anymore. And I fear it could be several years before that changes.

captain54
08-03-2011, 01:50 PM
I don't blame Reinsdorf for the current situation. He went out and put his money where his mouth is (Dunn, Paulie, AJ, Crain etc). I don't blame KW -- nearly everyone in the media and the fans (especially those on WSI) thought signing Dunn was a master stroke. He put together a roster that, had everyone performed to their career norms, would have a comfortable divisional lead right now. I don't even blame Ozzie. When the guys who were projected to hit 3d and 4th for you this year have given you virtually no production for 4 full months, there aren't many ways out of that mess. This season's apparent failure falls squarely on the shoulders of Dunn and Rios and really no one else.



The problem, Chez, is that we've gotten a steady diet of frustrating baseball since 06'. We can't beat the Twins, we can't beat pitchers we haven't seen before, we can't score the guy from third, we have slow starts only to try to scramble to the finish line and then fall short.

I think the fans have been more than patient. The fact of the matter, you have more holes in this lineup beside Dunn and Rios. With the exception of Konerko and maybe Ramirez, everyone else has been maddingly inconsistent.

The way I feel about it, and I'm sure there's a lot like me, it's not enough to have a pleasant ballpark atmosphere to soak up for me to go out of my way to attend more games when the product on the field blows. I followed the Sox in 1970 when they lost 106 games and the fuzzy UHF channel was the only way to watch a Sox game on TV. So I've been through hell and back with this team. I'm all for cheering on your team no matter what.

The buzz from winning the WS in 05' is just about depleted and the organization is gonna have to face this reality sooner or later.

LITTLE NELL
08-03-2011, 02:24 PM
The problem, Chez, is that we've gotten a steady diet of frustrating baseball since 06'. We can't beat the Twins, we can't beat pitchers we haven't seen before, we can't score the guy from third, we have slow starts only to try to scramble to the finish line and then fall short.



If it will make us feel better I was watching the Rays last night and it was mentioned that the Rays in the last month had the bases loaded with no outs 7 times and 6 of those times they failed to score a run. The Rays are having the same problem we are, good pitching and fielding but bad hitting.

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Given dynamic pricing, is there really "tiered" pricing anymore. I had no problem with the tiers, but not knowing what the price was for a game day in and day out is aggravating and confusing. When I was looking up bleacher tickets vs. the Twins the price was different for Tuesday compared to Wednesday.

So do "tiers" really exist now? Does half price Monday still exist, because what is it half price of? What a mind****.

Thank you! 2 seats for last night in 105 (bought on Friday) were $46/ticket for today there are $60 something a seat! Tickets in Premium Upper Box are $50/seat! BUT...Because nobody is going to these games, I saw a Club Box pair of seats for $25/each on StubHub and seats in 144 row 11 for $49/ticket...LESS THAN AN UPPER DECK SEAT!

God the White Sox are ****ing stupid.

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-03-2011, 03:50 PM
And minus the cubs and opening day, all unique games with obvious reasons as to why they sold out, did you notice how those games still had piss poor attendance when they normally would be sold out? Face it has been an abysmal failure due to a variety of factors.

Exactly. People will pay for a game like OD but that is one game.

Just wondering, how many of you guys used StubHub BEFORE it was mainstream and tied in with the MLB? I have used it since 2004.

captain54
08-03-2011, 03:54 PM
If it will make us feel better I was watching the Rays last night and it was mentioned that the Rays in the last month had the bases loaded with no outs 7 times and 6 of those times they failed to score a run. The Rays are having the same problem we are, good pitching and fielding but bad hitting.

Yet even with their hitting woes, if the Rays were in the Central and playing a steady diet of Central patsies they'd probably be in first place.
That just goes to show you how deep the Sox's flaws are.

doublem23
08-03-2011, 04:08 PM
Yet even with their hitting woes, if the Rays were in the Central and playing a steady diet of Central patsies they'd probably be in first place.
That just goes to show you how deep the Sox's flaws are.

TBR is only 16-14 vs. the Central

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-03-2011, 04:10 PM
Yet even with their hitting woes, if the Rays were in the Central and playing a steady diet of Central patsies they'd probably be in first place.
That just goes to show you how deep the Sox's flaws are.

The Jays would win the Central EVERY year.

captain54
08-03-2011, 04:56 PM
TBR is only 16-14 vs. the Central

there's still 1/3 of a season to go yet, son...

BTW, TB vs Minny 7-3.... Sox vs Minny 1-7

amsteel
08-03-2011, 05:48 PM
Just wondering, how many of you guys used StubHub BEFORE it was mainstream and tied in with the MLB? I have used it since 2004.

I'm not sure exactly how long, but at least 5 years. Ah yes, the good old days of Stubhub when fancodes were easily found via Google. I remember using a 20$ Stanford men's basketball code for Bears tickets.

With the MLB tie-in to Stubhub one would think the Sox are getting at least a cut of the sales, otherwise they would price more aggressively to compete. No one in their right mind would go through the Sox since almost every game can be had for below face on SH.

CLUBHOUSE KID
08-03-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm not sure exactly how long, but at least 5 years. Ah yes, the good old days of Stubhub when fancodes were easily found via Google. I remember using a 20$ Stanford men's basketball code for Bears tickets.

With the MLB tie-in to Stubhub one would think the Sox are getting at least a cut of the sales, otherwise they would price more aggressively to compete. No one in their right mind would go through the Sox since almost every game can be had for below face on SH.

Agreed. I remember finding those great codes.

TomBradley72
08-03-2011, 07:13 PM
I haven't looked at tix in a while- IF I chose to go to tomorrow's game- they expect me to pay $41 + service charges, etc. for the worst seats in the ballpark....idiots....complete idiots.

In 2005 they were a very well run franchise in touch with the fans, etc.

Now? I have no idea what's happened to Brooks Boyer and the crew- but the whole thing has dramtically deteriorated into a mess.

Not just on the field- but the whole operation.

Hendu
08-03-2011, 07:45 PM
I kind of agree with whoever said something about the atmosphere at the park being a reason numbers are down. I know I can decide to "not go", but when I DO go, and see Rios playing, or Dunn batting 4th vs a lefty, I feel like I'm paying to be force-fed ****. Also, and I know this is a money saving thing, but half of the stands on the lower deck are CLOSED, adorned by signs that tell you to go elsewhere if you want something. It's like they can't wait until we leave. And not to be mean, but the organist either only knows one song or they all sound the same. OMG I'm a masochist.

Same thing in the upper deck. Which is understandable for the games that don't draw, but the stands in the corners were closed during the practically sold-out Monday night game against the Tigers last month. Lines at all of the open stands were ridiculous. You could barely move through the UD concourse because of the lines. I waited 45 minutes or the helmet nachos...by the time I got to the front, they were out of chicken, beef and sour cream. It was a good reminder why I decided not to renew my Ozzie Plan.

At least I got to see a rare home win at the Tigers game though.

doublem23
08-03-2011, 08:05 PM
there's still 1/3 of a season to go yet, son...

BTW, TB vs Minny 7-3.... Sox vs Minny 1-7

THIS MAY COME AS A SHOCK TO YOU, but there are more teams in the Central than the Twins

AZChiSoxFan
08-03-2011, 08:29 PM
Keep this in mind, because the answer isn't always as easy as it sounds. The way the Cell is set up, it would be very hard to police the situation, especially in the upper deck, of trying to keep people in the seats they purchased. If the Sox sold the upper deck corners for $5 every game, those people would be tempted to move behind homeplate (531-534, let's say), causing headaches in a lot of different ways.

I'm not convinced this is accurate. I live in Phx so my point of reference is Chase field. At that stadium, in the UD, the last 3 sections at each end are very cheap. At virtually every game I attend, it's common to see tons of people in the last 3 sections at each end of the UD, and all the sections in between virtually empty.

LITTLE NELL
08-03-2011, 08:40 PM
I'm not convinced this is accurate. I live in Phx so my point of reference is Chase field. At that stadium, in the UD, the last 3 sections at each end are very cheap. At virtually every game I attend, it's common to see tons of people in the last 3 sections at each end of the UD, and all the sections in between virtually empty.

The Reds when they played in Riverfront had a deal in the UD, it was called the Top 6. All of the seats in the last 6 rows in the UD were dirt cheap. The Sox should try that with all rows and seats behind the posts being the cheapies.

kobo
08-03-2011, 08:41 PM
I've been to 12 games this season, and that's been the feeling in the ballpark for a handful of them. The fans expect to lose, and as soon as the Sox fall behind, you know they are incapable of rallying. The team has done nothing to make you feel otherwise.

I think both economic factors and the poor play on the field are at work as far as the sagging attendance goes. The Sox are 24-30 at home this year. I have to wonder how many "casual fans" have gone to a game, witnessed the boring style of play and felt the ho-hum atmosphere and vowed not to return for the rest of the season.

There is at the very least a perceived lack of energy in the dugout, on the field and in the stands at the Cell this year.
Spot on. The last game I went to was the Thursday night Twins game before the break. I left in the 7th inning, partly because I was with a couple Twins fans but mostly because I was just fed up with the lackluster effort by the Sox and the feeling of dread that went through the stadium when they were down 3-0 after 2 innings. It was the worst atmosphere I've ever experienced at the Cell, and I vowed not to return again this year. Just not worth the time, money, and energy required to go to a game.

kobo
08-03-2011, 08:51 PM
The problem, Chez, is that we've gotten a steady diet of frustrating baseball since 06'. We can't beat the Twins, we can't beat pitchers we haven't seen before, we can't score the guy from third, we have slow starts only to try to scramble to the finish line and then fall short.

I think the fans have been more than patient. The fact of the matter, you have more holes in this lineup beside Dunn and Rios. With the exception of Konerko and maybe Ramirez, everyone else has been maddingly inconsistent.

The way I feel about it, and I'm sure there's a lot like me, it's not enough to have a pleasant ballpark atmosphere to soak up for me to go out of my way to attend more games when the product on the field blows. I followed the Sox in 1970 when they lost 106 games and the fuzzy UHF channel was the only way to watch a Sox game on TV. So I've been through hell and back with this team. I'm all for cheering on your team no matter what.

The buzz from winning the WS in 05' is just about depleted and the organization is gonna have to face this reality sooner or later.
If there was any buzz left then this season has killed that buzz.

BainesHOF
08-03-2011, 10:31 PM
It's Elvis Night.

Such a tired promotion. It was fun for the first, oh, 10 years. It's a small example of Brooks Boyer not doing a good job. He seems to be in over his head. I don't think he's ever understood baseball. With the team so bad this year, it exposes the lame atmosphere at the park. The constant insertion of "noise" is nothing but annoying. The music played, for the most part, is insipid. The quality of concessions is too often lacking. The relative lack of promotional giveaways is not good. Even Soxfest seems to be run like a chore these days.

amsteel
08-03-2011, 10:36 PM
With the team so bad this year, it exposes the lame atmosphere at the park. The constant insertion of "noise" is nothing but annoying. The music played, for the most part, is insipid. The quality of concessions is too often lacking. The relative lack of promotional giveaways is not good.

You just described every sports stadium in which the home team is losing.

ChicagoG19
08-03-2011, 10:52 PM
I think it's time for JR to clean house. Not only on the field, but off the field as well. Kenny, Ozzie, and Brooks need to go as well as the dynamic pricing bull****.

GoGoCrede
08-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Don't teams like the Brewers make sure every fan gets a bobblehead, not just the first 10,000 or so? That'd be nice.

BainesHOF
08-03-2011, 11:01 PM
I kind of agree with whoever said something about the atmosphere at the park being a reason numbers are down. I know I can decide to "not go", but when I DO go, and see Rios playing, or Dunn batting 4th vs a lefty, I feel like I'm paying to be force-fed ****.

I agree. It's ridiculous that Dunn is still batting fourth against a lefty this late in his miserable season. There's no defending such b.s. Why would a Major League team still bat him fourth? Rios has been dogging it for weeks and he keeps starting. Guillen has been incompetent in just about every aspect of managing. How is he allowed to inflict such damage to the team for so long? It didn't take a baseball genius to recognize the team's major problems early in the season, but it's now August and there hasn't been ONE significant change made even though we've been one of baseball's biggest disappointments. The offense has been miserable, but the organization doesn't bring up its hot-hitting minor leaguer. The season had a chance to be saved, but the organization didn't even try to do anything. It's lucky any fans show up now.

ChicagoG19
08-03-2011, 11:07 PM
Don't teams like the Brewers make sure every fan gets a bobblehead, not just the first 10,000 or so? That'd be nice.

They know how to treat their fans. That's why a city of 600,000 can outdraw the Sox who play in a city of 2.7 million (I realize that Chicago has two teams). Hell, the Brewers had a worse record than the Sox last year and still outdrew the Sox. That should tell you something.

amsteel
08-03-2011, 11:11 PM
They know how to treat their fans. That's why a city of 600,000 can outdraw the Sox who play in a city of 2.7 million (I realize that Chicago has two teams). Hell, the Brewers had a worse record than the Sox last year and still outdrew the Sox. That should tell you something.

There are about a million reasons why the Brewers should outsell the Sox.

Affordability
Accessibility
Likability of players/from office members
Climate control

DSpivack
08-03-2011, 11:15 PM
There are about a million reasons why the Brewers should outsell the Sox.

Affordability
Accessibility
Likability of players/from office members
Climate control

Of the players, or the stadium?

USCF is easier to get to than is Miller Park and is the much better stadium. I know nothing about the Brewers players and the community.

amsteel
08-03-2011, 11:37 PM
Of the players, or the stadium?

USCF is easier to get to than is Miller Park and is the much better stadium. I know nothing about the Brewers players and the community.

The stadium very centrally located in the metro area, accessible by 2 interstates (3 if you count the bypass). It shouldn't take anyone more than 20 minutes to get there. Unless you're coming from the way out exurbs. Not as many public transportation options as USCF, but ample parking.

The cheap parking helps too.

Of the players, too, for that matter. When I lived there during the bleak years of the mid 2000s, before the season they sent players around to local malls to meet fans, sign autos, etc. Don't know if they still do that, but it was a nice gesture. And I met the sausages at a Culver's one time.

DSpivack
08-03-2011, 11:38 PM
The stadium very centrally located in the metro area, accessible by 2 interstates (3 if you count the bypass). It shouldn't take anyone more than 20 minutes to get there. Unless you're coming from the way out exurbs. Not as many public transportation options as USCF, but ample parking.

The cheap parking helps too.

Of the players, too, for that matter. When I lived there during the bleak years of the mid 2000s, before the season they sent players around to local malls to meet fans, sign autos, etc. Don't know if they still do that, but it was a nice gesture. And I met the sausages at a Culver's one time.

And that's why USCF is much more accessible. It's not the Brewers fault, as they play in Milwaukee, but it's no less true.

Milw
08-04-2011, 08:11 AM
And that's why USCF is much more accessible. It's not the Brewers fault, as they play in Milwaukee, but it's no less true.
Having lived in both cities extensively, you're wrong--Miller is much easier to get to than USCF.

I live in Oak Park now, and I need to only take the Green Line to the game. That still takes me 45 minutes each way and costs me and my wife $10 combined roundtrip. If you're coming from a further suburb, the public trans is even longer and more expensive.

On the other hand, there is NOWHERE in the Milwaukee metro area from where it would take more than 30 minutes to drive to Miller Park, and parking is only $7. So despite the lack of public transportation, it's still cheaper, faster and more convenient to get to a Brewers game.

/thread hijack over

GoSox2K3
08-04-2011, 08:38 AM
BUT - and let's keep in mind that WSI and other fan sites are a tiny percentage of the fanbase. JR made a cocky mistake last spring by taunting the fans to show up or else. You got to wonder if he allows himself to say things like that on radio - what does he tell his staff behind closed doors???

Attendance this year was hurt by horrible (even by Chicago standards) weather - a long Bulls run and lackluster play.

For JR to suggest the team is hurting financially is an insult. The 100 CSN games bring in 45 million alone and since he has owned the team since 1981 NO DEBT SERVICE.

From a baseball standpoint if he wants to keep KW and Ozzie fine - he signs the checks - but to keep the hitting coach on is amazing - Greg Walker would have been fired by any other MLB team by now - if nothing else bring in Walt Hriniak (what harm could he do?)

They're blowing almost that entire wad on Dunn, Rios, and Peavy. $43M next year for those 3 guys alone.:o:

That being said, I agree with you. It's not just about overpaying for underperforming players on the decline. I'd like to know why the Sox have not invested in scouting and in developing a good farm system. They simply can't buy their way to success and Kenny's luck with roll-the-dice/diamond-in-the-rough guys isn't a good foundation for success either.

JR back in May was pre-occupied with his Bulls

The way the White Sox shrugged off the Dave Wilder fiasco speaks volumes....passing it off as 'one bad apple'. Somebody on 35th St had to know what was going on and if not should have.

Logic says heads will roll unless this team wakes up in the final 8 weeks...

Would it be the worst move in the world to make Steve Stone the next GM?

:hawk
Moving someone from the TV booth to GM? Have the Sox ever done that before?:tongue:

GoSox2K3
08-04-2011, 08:41 AM
Of the players, or the stadium?

USCF is easier to get to than is Miller Park and is the much better stadium. I know nothing about the Brewers players and the community.

If you live in the city and are close to the el, yes. Also accessibility is now good for those along the Rock Island Metra line. But for those of us who don't, the traffic getting to the Cell is just horrible. Even on weekends, I have to assume I'll hit a traffic jam on I-55 to get to the park.

A lot of the Sox fan base lives out in the suburbs and getting to the park can be a real pain in the ass....and that's before they charge you $23 to park.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 08:50 AM
Of the players, or the stadium?

USCF is easier to get to than is Miller Park and is the much better stadium. I know nothing about the Brewers players and the community.

What others have said--I live in Wheaton and I can tell you that after having driven to Miller Field a couple of times it is a much more hassle-free drive than the typical traffic-choked evening on the Eisenhower I endure to get to the Cell. And if I were to take a train and transfer to the El to get to the Cell (hey, that's catchy!) it would take about the same time it would take me to drive 100 miles to Milwaukee--and when I got there I'd only have to pay $7-8 to park rather than $23.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:00 AM
A lot of the Sox fan base lives out in the suburbs and getting to the park can be a real pain in the ass....and that's before they charge you $23 to park.

And if I were to take a train and transfer to the El to get to the Cell (hey, that's catchy!) it would take about the same time it would take me to drive 100 miles to Milwaukee--and when I got there I'd only have to pay $7-8 to park rather than $23.

The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:02 AM
The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's just silly.

USCF is one the most accessible parks in baseball, especially this season with the addition of the Metra stop.

It's right off Metra, the CTA, has numerous busses coming in from various suburbs, and is directly accessible off a major highway just a few miles from Chicago's downtown.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:05 AM
I live in Oak Park now, and I need to only take the Green Line to the game. That still takes me 45 minutes each way and costs me and my wife $10 combined roundtrip. If you're coming from a further suburb, the public trans is even longer and more expensive.

Not to belittle your point, but that trip should cost you $9.00 if you're using different Chicago cards. If you're using the same Chicago card, the trip should cost you $4.50. Without the cost of gasoline or wear/tear on your car (govt puts that at 50 cents per mile now) along with almost the door-to-door ease of the L, this is the biggest no-brainer in the world.

Someone's actually saying they want to drive 100 miles to Miller Park and say that's cheaper because parking is $7 up there compared to $23 at the Cell and not consider that you're filling up your tank twice to do that? :scratch:

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:07 AM
The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

That's not the point at all--it's the realities of the situation--for half of the metropolitan area the effort to get to the Cell is not a casual undertaking.

Milw
08-04-2011, 09:09 AM
The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nobody's lambasting the Sox for where they live. It was stated that getting to USCF for Sox fans is easier than getting to Miller Park for Brewers fans. That's just simply not true for the majority of Sox fans. That's not the fault of the Sox, but it is reality.

You know what is silly? Lambasting people for choosing not to make a 150-minute roundtrip commute to pay $23 to park and $40 for an upper deck ticket to see a lackadaisical baseball team. :mad:

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
That's not the point at all--it's the realities of the situation--for half of the metropolitan area the effort to get to the Cell is not a casual undertaking.

Is this breaking news or hasn't that been the case since the early 60s?

Not to be an ass, but can you even imagine the whining on the other side if the Sox built their Stadium out in ****ing Addison 21 years ago?

The team sucks this year, but fickle Sox fans always seem to amaze me.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:10 AM
Someone's actually saying they want to drive 100 miles to Miller Park and say that's cheaper because parking is $7 up there compared to $23 at the Cell and not consider that you're filling up your tank twice to do that? :scratch:

Let's see, now how did you tease that out of what I said? I'm a Sox fan, but I've gone to a couple of games in Milwaukee. I was saying that even for someone at this remove from Milwaukee, the travel to that field 100 miles away in terms of convenience is just about a wash with trying to get to the Cell---20 miles away. And what's not to like about $7 parking??? :scratch:

Marqhead
08-04-2011, 09:14 AM
Having lived in both Oak Park and Milwaukee, Milw is right, with an exception here or there.

Yes there are more transportation options to the Cell, but in terms of time and money Miller Park is much more accessible. You don't have the horrible rush hour traffic that you do in Chicago, and Miller Park is much more centrally located in what is a much smaller town. Add in the fact that parking is dirt cheap, as are tickets, it's no surprise that the Brewers continue to draw well, good or bad.

Now the Sox have a lot more to compete with, so for them winning is always going to be the one thing that can get fans to the park. But sky high prices for parking and really crummy upper deck seats is not going to draw 2.5-3 million fans a year.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 09:14 AM
The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

Yeah, that's just silly.

USCF is one the most accessible parks in baseball, especially this season with the addition of the Metra stop.

It's right off Metra, the CTA, has numerous busses coming in from various suburbs, and is directly accessible off a major highway just a few miles from Chicago's downtown.

It's certainly an argument, but look at the way the park fills up on 1/2 Price Mondays and I think you'll see that, without a doubt, the two biggest factors are (1) how the team plays and (2) price.

The 2011 Sox have basically sucked since the 2nd week of the season and we have the 5th highest tickets in all of baseball. I mean, ****, from my North Side abode, door to gate I can be at the Cell in roughly 30 minutes and I don't want to pay $30/seat to watch these guys play like dogs.

Milw
08-04-2011, 09:14 AM
Not to belittle your point, but that trip should cost you $9.00 if you're using different Chicago cards. If you're using the same Chicago card, the trip should cost you $4.50. Without the cost of gasoline or wear/tear on your car (govt puts that at 50 cents per mile now) along with almost the door-to-door ease of the L, this is the biggest no-brainer in the world.

Someone's actually saying they want to drive 100 miles to Miller Park and say that's cheaper because parking is $7 up there compared to $23 at the Cell and not consider that you're filling up your tank twice to do that? :scratch:
I agree regarding the L being the better option. But despite not belittling my point, you missed it. Being in Oak Park, I have immediate access to the L and it still takes me an hour and a half round trip. My point is that I'm one of the lucky ones, because for most Sox fans, the L isn't an option, the Metra ends up taking an hour each way after transfers, and to drive (which is what most people have to do) is an hour minimum and $23 plus wear and tear on the car.

Again, none of this is the fault of the Sox (parking price aside), but it really is ridiculous to suggest that getting to USCF is a breeze. For people living in the city, that may be true, but not everybody lives in the city.

Marqhead
08-04-2011, 09:16 AM
Is this breaking news or hasn't that been the case since the early 60s?

Not to be an ass, but can you even imagine the whining on the other side if the Sox built their Stadium out in ****ing Addison 21 years ago?

The team sucks this year, but fickle Sox fans always seem to amaze me.

But Addison isn't really in the center of the Chicago suburbs. Miller Park is just west of the city, but close enough for city residents to drive or take a quick bus to. It's also very centrally located to all the near suburbs. The Brewers have a lot less to compete with than the Sox, but their stadium is quicker and cheaper to get to.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:17 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Nobody's lambasting the Sox for where they live. It was stated that getting to USCF for Sox fans is easier than getting to Miller Park for Brewers fans. That's just simply not true for the majority of Sox fans. That's not the fault of the Sox, but it is reality.

You're delusional. You don't know where the "majority of Sox fans" live, and you don't know where the "majority of Brewers fans" live, and you're talking out of your ass. What public transportation options are there to Miller Park, which sits in a parking lot next to one expressway in a metropolitan area that is much smaller and less dense than Chicago. You're assuming all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee, which isn't even close to the truth.

You know what is silly? Lambasting people for choosing not to make a 150-minute roundtrip commute to pay $23 to park and $40 for an upper deck ticket to see a lackadaisical baseball team. :mad:Don't go if the team sucks. Who cares? Just don't whine that it takes too long to get there. Everyone makes choices in life about where they want to live, how much they want to pay in property taxes, how big of a yard they want to have, how close they want to be to the mall, etc. If you live far away from your favorite baseball team, don't ****ing blame the team. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:

Marqhead
08-04-2011, 09:20 AM
You're delusionall. You don't know where the "majority of Sox fans" live, and you don't know where the "majority of Brewers fans" live, and you're talking out of your ass. What public transportation options are there to Miller Park, which sits in a parking lot next to one expressway in a metropolitan area that is much smaller and less dense than Chicago. You're assuming all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee, which isn't even close to the truth.


Come on, with all things even I'd say Sox fans are scattered throughout the Chicago suburbs just as Brewers fans are throughout the Milwaukee suburbs. Would you agree that more Sox fans live in the burbs than the city? That's just simply looking at the distribution of populations in both metro areas.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:20 AM
Is this breaking news or hasn't that been the case since the early 60s?

Not to be an ass, but can you even imagine the whining on the other side if the Sox built their Stadium out in ****ing Addison 21 years ago?

The team sucks this year, but fickle Sox fans always seem to amaze me.

-Yes, it's always been a pain to get to the Cell from most of the 'burbs--no change there. But the fact that it's always been true, doesn't make it any less of a pain.

-Yes, people in the city would have whined--due to geography somebody's gonna get burned either way they went.

-And I'm hardly being "fickle"--the truth is that getting to the Cell from points north and west (beyond, say, the People's Republic of Oak Park) is a pain. Add this to a team that is El Sucko Grande and that doesn't even seem to care (and whose front office charges you $23 for parking--insert comments about the lousy economy here) and you have a lot working against you--that's the reality behind the current predicament that makes for crowds of 24,000 people and 25% of that crowd being expat-Yankee fans and junketing New Yorkers...

doublem23
08-04-2011, 09:23 AM
I agree regarding the L being the better option. But despite not belittling my point, you missed it. Being in Oak Park, I have immediate access to the L and it still takes me an hour and a half round trip. My point is that I'm one of the lucky ones, because for most Sox fans, the L isn't an option, the Metra ends up taking an hour each way after transfers, and to drive (which is what most people have to do) is an hour minimum and $23 plus wear and tear on the car.

Again, none of this is the fault of the Sox (parking price aside), but it really is ridiculous to suggest that getting to USCF is a breeze. For people living in the city, that may be true, but not everybody lives in the city.

For those not able to take the L, there is also the U.S. Cellular Field Express bus, $8/round trip

http://www.pacebus.com/sub/espd/us_cellular_express.asp

kittle42
08-04-2011, 09:30 AM
The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

Thank you. Wah, wah, I live in the suburbs!

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:31 AM
-Yes, it's always been a pain to get to the Cell from most of the 'burbs--no change there. But the fact that it's always been true, doesn't make it any less of a pain.

-Yes, people in the city would have whined--due to geography somebody's gonna get burned either way they went.

-And I'm hardly being "fickle"--the truth is that getting to the Cell from points north and west (beyond, say, the People's Republic of Oak Park) is a pain. Add this to a team that is El Sucko Grande and that doesn't even seem to care (and whose front office charges you $23 for parking--insert comments about the lousy economy here) and you have a lot working against you--that's the reality behind the current predicament that makes for crowds of 24,000 people and 25% of that crowd being expat-Yankee fans and junketing New Yorkers...

I live well north of USCF and don't own a car. Getting to USCF has never been a problem.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:32 AM
Would you agree that more Sox fans live in the burbs than the city?

Well, that's my point. None of us really know for sure. The White Sox could look at season ticket invoice addresses and credit card receipts and possible have a better idea, but I would not be surprised if the amount of Sox fans within the city limits of Chicago was comparable, if not slightly more, to the number of Sox fans in the suburbs.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:33 AM
You're delusionall. You don't know where the "majority of Sox fans" live, and you don't know where the "majority of Brewers fans" live, and you're talking out of your ass. What public transportation options are there to Miller Park, which sits in a parking lot next to one expressway in a metropolitan area that is much smaller and less dense than Chicago. You're assuming all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee, which isn't even close to the truth.


Who's being delusional and talking out of their keister here? It's patently obvious you don't know much about Milwaukee or travel in that area. I lived there for a year (many moons ago) and have some friends and in-laws up there. Miller Park (and before that, it's predecessor County Stadium) is EASY to get to from anywhere in the city and outlying suburbs and towns like Racine, Kenosha and so forth. Moreover, the traffic congestion is NOTHING like that of the Eisenhower or the Dan Ryan. There's nothing to compare it to in terms of ease of access in the entire Chicago area, and that's including the Allstate Arena, the (now defunct) Schaumburg Flyers stadium, Wrigley, the United Center (although from the Western burbs I've got no complaints about that trip once I get past the Hillside Strangler 2.0 etc.), etc., etc.

Milw
08-04-2011, 09:33 AM
You're delusionall. You don't know where the "majority of Sox fans" live, and you don't know where the "majority of Brewers fans" live, and you're talking out of your ass. What public transportation options are there to Miller Park, which sits in a parking lot next to one expressway in a metropolitan area that is much smaller and less dense than Chicago. You're assuming all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee, which isn't even close to the truth.



Don't go if the team sucks. Who cares? Just don't whine that it takes too long to get there. Everyone makes choices in life about where they want to live, how much they want to pay in property taxes, how big of a yard they want to have, how close they want to be to the mall, etc. If you live far away from your favorite baseball team, don't ****ing blame the team. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
Um, no, I don't assume all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee. That was the crux of my point--Miller Park is centrally situated in the metro area (in the suburbs, in fact), making it easy for everyone there to get there relatively easily. Also, they have public buses that drop off at the stadium.

But getting off that Milwaukee tangent, I'll say this for the third time: Nobody, least of all me, is blaming the team for where people live. Holy crap. I'm offering a reality-based explanation/excuse for why a lot of people choose not to come out to see a crappy overpriced baseball team. Again, nobody is claiming this is a new development, and yes, it isn't a problem when the team is winning.

How am I possibly saying anything that's controversial here? :scratch:

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:35 AM
I live well north of USCF and don't own a car. Getting to USCF has never been a problem.

How far is "well north"? I used to live in Lake County for years, and even if I had been living in the southern end of the county it would have taken me at least an hour one way for a night game.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:36 AM
-And I'm hardly being "fickle"--the truth is that getting to the Cell from points north and west (beyond, say, the People's Republic of Oak Park) is a pain. Add this to a team that is El Sucko Grande and that doesn't even seem to care (and whose front office charges you $23 for parking--insert comments about the lousy economy here) and you have a lot working against you--that's the reality behind the current predicament that makes for crowds of 24,000 people and 25% of that crowd being expat-Yankee fans and junketing New Yorkers...

I don't disagree with you about the price of parking or the performance of the team. You're not being fickle, but many Sox fans are. The "its too hard to get there" argument gets old when you consider the reality that Chicago is an entertainment hub, and people have to make the same sacrifices if they want to go see a Cubs, Bears, Bulls, or Hawks game, or a musical, opera, go to a nice restaurant, etc.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:36 AM
But getting off that Milwaukee tangent, I'll say this for the third time: Nobody, least of all me, is blaming the team for where people live. Holy crap. I'm offering a reality-based explanation/excuse for why a lot of people choose not to come out to see a crappy overpriced baseball team. Again, nobody is claiming this is a new development, and yes, it isn't a problem when the team is winning.

How am I possibly saying anything that's controversial here? :scratch:

Ditto.

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Who's being delusional and talking out of their keister here? It's patently obvious you don't know much about Milwaukee or travel in that area. I lived there for a year (many moons ago) and have some friends and in-laws up there. Miller Park (and before that, it's predecessor County Stadium) is EASY to get to from anywhere in the city and outlying suburbs and towns like Racine, Kenosha and so forth. Moreover, the traffic congestion is NOTHING like that of the Eisenhower or the Dan Ryan. There's nothing to compare it to in terms of ease of access in the entire Chicago area, and that's including the Allstate Arena, the (now defunct) Schaumburg Flyers stadium, Wrigley, the United Center (although from the Western burbs I've got no complaints about that trip once I get past the Hillside Strangler 2.0 etc.), etc., etc.

And you need a car to get there.

USCF is accessible via CTA rail, CTA busses, Metra, and RTA busses run specially for that purpose from several suburbs. It's located directly off a major highway just a few miles from downtown, and has plenty of parking. That's accessibility to me.

The Miller Park argument seems to boil down to me that the Brewers benefit from being in a small city that doesn't have much traffic. That doesn't make it more accessible, at least to me.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 09:37 AM
Um, no, I don't assume all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee. That was the crux of my point--Miller Park is centrally situated in the metro area (in the suburbs, in fact), making it easy for everyone there to get there relatively easily. Also, they have public buses that drop off at the stadium.

But that has more to do with Milwaukee being a small town and Chicago being a megapolis. If you were to look at the 6-county Chicagoland area, the center of population would still be weeeeeeeeeeeeell inside the city limits.

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:38 AM
How far is "well north"? I used to live in Lake County for years, and even if I had been living in the southern end of the county it would have taken me at least an hour one way for a night game.

I grew up in Evanston and currently live in Edgewater.

It's easy to get to the park from either locale, I just acknowledge it will take about an hour to travel 15 or so miles through a major city.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 09:43 AM
But getting off that Milwaukee tangent, I'll say this for the third time: Nobody, least of all me, is blaming the team for where people live. Holy crap. I'm offering a reality-based explanation/excuse for why a lot of people choose not to come out to see a crappy overpriced baseball team. Again, nobody is claiming this is a new development, and yes, it isn't a problem when the team is winning.

How am I possibly saying anything that's controversial here? :scratch:

Perhaps what I've bolded is what is comical. Is not the fact that the team sucks enough of a reason not to come to the game? Instead, we see consistent whining from people that it's too hard to get to the game. Doub just mentioned he can get to the park in 30 minutes but chooses not to go because of the price. So, there are two good excuses you can use: bad team and too expensive. Yet, we've got a third excuse popping up now: "it takes too long and too hard to get there."

Hilarious.

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 09:44 AM
I grew up in Evanston and currently live in Edgewater.

It's easy to get to the park from either locale, I just acknowledge it will take about an hour to travel 15 or so miles through a major city.

Again, DSpiv and Brian26, like Milw, I'm just trying to point out the realities of why it's easy for Sox fans in the suburbs to stay away in droves when the team is as bad as it is now. Two hours + (usually) for a round trip, plus the traffic to come watch this poopy team--yikes. I've still got some tickets to a few Sox games and I'm guessing I will use them instead of StubHubbing them, but the prospect of the entire enterprise--the travel, the traffic, the parking extortion to then watch Alex Rios miss cut-off men, Ramirez fall asleep on the basepaths, Juan Pierre's noodle arm, etc., etc--isn't stoking my enthusiasm.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 09:45 AM
Perhaps what I've bolded is what is comical. Is not the fact that the team sucks enough of a reason not to come to the game? Instead, we see consistent whining from people that it's too hard to get to the game. Doub just mentioned he can get to the park in 30 minutes but chooses not to go because of the price. So, there are two good excuses you can use: bad team and too expensive. Yet, we've got a third excuse popping up now: "it takes too long and too hard to get there."

Hilarious.

I'd have no desire to watch this team if I lived as close to the Cell as I do to Wrigley.

GoSox2K3
08-04-2011, 09:48 AM
Of the players, or the stadium?

USCF is easier to get to than is Miller Park and is the much better stadium. I know nothing about the Brewers players and the community.

If you live in the city and are close to the el, yes. Also accessibility is now good for those along the Rock Island Metra line. But for those of us who don't, the traffic getting to the Cell is just horrible. Even on weekends, I have to assume I'll hit a traffic jam on I-55 to get to the park.

A lot of the Sox fan base lives out in the suburbs and getting to the park can be a real pain in the ass....and that's before they charge you $23 to park.

The Sox are getting lambasted because people decided they wanted to live out in the suburbs rather than closer to the city? Wow, just wow. That's definitely the fault of the White Sox. :rolleyes:

Thank you. Wah, wah, I live in the suburbs!

:rolleyes::rolleyes: Please, these two replies are so ****ing ridiculous. Um, no..... I was simply replying to the comment that the Cell is easier to get to than Miller Park. Well, for a lot of fans it isn't. That's a fact. Please show me where I (or any other poster) BLAMED the Sox for this? That's NOT "whining" or "lambasting the Sox".

If you guys want to be asses about it and put words in my mouth, that's your problem. Yes, stupid suburbanites and their whining! How dare they make an observational comparison of Miller Park accessibility vs. the Cell's!

...and no, thank YOU, Kittle42 for making this into a slam against suburbanites.:dtroll:

GoSox2K3
08-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Perhaps what I've bolded is what is comical. Is not the fact that the team sucks enough of a reason not to come to the game? Instead, we see consistent whining from people that it's too hard to get to the game. Doub just mentioned he can get to the park in 30 minutes but chooses not to go because of the price. So, there are two good excuses you can use: bad team and too expensive. Yet, we've got a third excuse popping up now: "it takes too long and too hard to get there."

Hilarious.

Why is that an "excuse" and "hilarious". On weeknights, it's tough for people who live far from the Cell to get there on work nights. It's not an excuse, it's a long-time reality.

The only reason this came up is that someone compared this to Milwaukee. Well, I'm sorry but the comment that the Cell is more accessible than Miller Park isn't true for many fans. People in the Milwaukee area can get to the park in a short time even if they don't live in the city whereas there are a number of Sox fans who can't.

People who have other commitments that conflict with this (children, etc.) aren't all simply being "babies" about it.

I'm not sure why you're getting all in a huff about people point out this reality. Don't you have a sleeve patch that nobody notices to complain about?

DSpivack
08-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Again, DSpiv and Brian26, like Milw, I'm just trying to point out the realities of why it's easy for Sox fans in the suburbs to stay away in droves when the team is as bad as it is now. Two hours + (usually) for a round trip, plus the traffic to come watch this poopy team--yikes. I've still got some tickets to a few Sox games and I'm guessing I will use them instead of StubHubbing them, but the prospect of the entire enterprise--the travel, the traffic, the parking extortion to then watch Alex Rios miss cut-off men, Ramirez fall asleep on the basepaths, Juan Pierre's noodle arm, etc., etc--isn't stoking my enthusiasm.

But does that travel hinder you when the team is playing well? I acknowledge two factors that have kept me away from the park this season: 1, I'm broke and can't afford it, and 2, the team sucks and I just won't enjoy it as much. But traveling to the park is a constant known no matter how the team is performing, and as I live not far from the el, it's pretty easy getting to the park even if it takes an hour.

The original premise was that Miller Park is more accessible than USCF. I still think that notion is incorrect, and just based on the fact that Milwaukee is a much smaller city than is Chicago. I guess my point there would be in ranking all of the parks in baseball in terms of accessibility, I think USCF would be towards the top. I think you have to take where the team is located, how big the metropolis is and related factors, into account and make that relative for each team.

I think of teams in similarly big metropolises. In LA, Chavez Ravine is near downtown, and yet the traffic is still very troublesome as there aren't many ways to exit the parking lots, and the public transportation options are limited. The Angels may be directly off a highway exit in Anaheim and that might be slightly easier to get to, but still there are less options there than at USCF. While LA is not known for having good transportation options, New York is. Yankee Stadium is not difficult to get to, as I believe there are two subway stop one can use to see a Yankees game, as well as Metro-North. Parking there may be annoyingly expensive, but the road options aren't that awful considering it's in New York. Citi Field, on the other end, is way in Flushing and more difficult to get to, despite being near several highways and subway and LIRR stops, as while it is located technically within city limits, it's rather far out from the center of the city of New York.

Taking location, the number of transportation options, the size of the city and it's related traffic, and the ease of access and parking into account, I do think that USCF is one of the most easily accessible stadiums in all of baseball.

jdm2662
08-04-2011, 10:00 AM
Why I am not surprised city snobs sticking up their noses when the burbs are even mentioned? Someone points out it's easier to get to one place that is farther than another, and its an outrage that a fact is pointed out? Seriously? How hard is to grasp that some people don't want to the trouble of watching crappy baseball? I didn't see complaining at all. It was FACTS being pointed out. How dare they point this out?

I would point out that I no longer attend week night games. I do work in Northbrook, and it takes an hour to get to the ball park with no traffic. But, I'd be complaining, so I shouldn't bring it up. I'm sorry I have to make a living, but that's life...

kobo
08-04-2011, 10:03 AM
You're delusional. You don't know where the "majority of Sox fans" live, and you don't know where the "majority of Brewers fans" live, and you're talking out of your ass. What public transportation options are there to Miller Park, which sits in a parking lot next to one expressway in a metropolitan area that is much smaller and less dense than Chicago. You're assuming all Brewer fans live in downtown Milwaukee, which isn't even close to the truth.

Don't go if the team sucks. Who cares? Just don't whine that it takes too long to get there. Everyone makes choices in life about where they want to live, how much they want to pay in property taxes, how big of a yard they want to have, how close they want to be to the mall, etc. If you live far away from your favorite baseball team, don't ****ing blame the team. Unbelievable. :rolleyes:
I don't see anyone blaming the team, just stating the reality of the situation. Just because the Cell is more accessible does not mean it's easier to get there.

hi im skot
08-04-2011, 10:04 AM
Don't you have a sleeve patch that nobody notices to complain about?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IqWOPMHbs0E/SRg89DNp26I/AAAAAAAABSE/-aKk45Tv464/s400/crying_indian.jpg

Too soon.

Hitmen77
08-04-2011, 10:05 AM
White Sox dynamic pricing

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/ticketing/dynamic_pricing.jsp?c_id=cws


Stub Hub

http://www.stubhub.com/chicago-white-sox-tickets/white-sox-vs-yankees-8-2-2011-1004140/

Being a weekday series doesn't help....but I believe the Cubs shattered Wrigley records this year when NYY came in for a weekend...and the Cubs are playing a LOT worse than the Sox.

Parking fees may well be factor
The most expensive parking is the New York Yankees ($35), Boston Red Sox ($27), Chicago Cubs ($25) and the Chicago White Sox ($23).

The cheapest parking is the Tampa Bay Rays ($0), Washington Nationals ($5), Detroit Tigers ($5), Minnesota Twins ($6) and the Kansas City Royals ($6) according to Team Marketing Report

https://www.teammarketing.com/public/files/2011_mlb_fci.pdf

The Red Sox and Cubs however have very limited parking, Yankees have no control over the garage prices in the Bronx ( set by city ) and more fans are now using the new Metro-North station that serves Manhattan, Westchester and Connecticut.

IMHO White Sox parking should be $10-15 at most.

It might be time to find another marketing guru...

The Cubs vs. Yankees series and Sox vs. Yankees series are not comparable at all. Aside from the uniqueness of those two teams playing, there's also the oft-discussed realities of the Cubs having a bigger fan base and having more demand for tickets.

Actually, as we all discussed earlier this year, the Cubs and Ricketts seem to be on the verge of an attendance drop as fans get fed up with their ineptitude and high prices. IMO, it's just a shame that the Sox aren't taking advantage of that by having a great season and fielding an exciting team this year. This would have been a great opportunity to make another dent in the Cubs market share juggernaut.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Why I am not surprised city snobs sticking up their noses when the burbs are even mentioned? Someone points out it's easier to get to one place that is farther than another, and its an outrage that a fact is pointed out? Seriously? How hard is to grasp that some people don't want to the trouble of watching crappy baseball? I didn't see complaining at all. It was FACTS being pointed out. How dare they point this out?

Well that's the underlying point, the reason people don't want to come out to see the Sox is that they suck. If the team was playing 1/2 as good as many people expected them to, then all the traffic and parking excuses would fly out the window, and the park would be rocking.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 10:07 AM
The Cubs vs. Yankees series and Sox vs. Yankees series are not comparable at all. Aside from the uniqueness of those two teams playing, there's also the oft-discussed realities of the Cubs having a bigger fan base and having more demand for tickets.

Not to mention, for New Yorkers traveling to Chicago to see their team, many of them would probably have chosen to go to the Cubs/Yankees games because A) Wrigley Field and B) it was a weekend series.

amsteel
08-04-2011, 10:08 AM
Just because the Cell is more accessible does not mean it's easier to get there.

the definition of accessibility is "easy to approach, reach, enter, speak with, or use"

There have been a million posts about this in this thread and all year. If you play it right, you can park for free (or at least less than 23$), get 1/2 price tickets, and still have fun. It might not be the day or game you want to see, but as many people in this thread have pointed out, Sox fans should care about seeing one team.

If you aren't gonna go anyways, don't complain about how expensive it is or how hard it is to get to USCF.

amsteel
08-04-2011, 10:10 AM
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_iqwopmhbs0e/srg89dnp26i/aaaaaaaabse/-akk45tv464/s400/crying_indian.jpg

too soon.

hahahaha

never 4git : 11-12-2010 : RIP sock patch

Hendu
08-04-2011, 10:17 AM
It's silly to bring up the accessibility of Miller Park. For a lot of people on this board, Wrigley Field is more convenient than the Cell, but so what? We're Sox fans.

When the club sucks, it's a lot easier to find excuses not to go to games. Doesn't matter if it takes too long to get there, too expensive, or you just have better things to do.

And the Sox sucking is not even the fun kind of sucking where there's a glimmer of hope or some young kid you have to go watch. It's the baseball equivalent of NBA hell...just a mediocre team that's going to be mediocre for years to come.

soltrain21
08-04-2011, 10:18 AM
I'm not sure why you're getting all in a huff about people point out this reality. Don't you have a sleeve patch that nobody notices to complain about?

http://i.imgur.com/gB2He.gif

Procol Harum
08-04-2011, 10:20 AM
But does that travel hinder you when the team is playing well? I acknowledge two factors that have kept me away from the park this season: 1, I'm broke and can't afford it, and 2, the team sucks and I just won't enjoy it as much. But traveling to the park is a constant known no matter how the team is performing, and as I live not far from the el, it's pretty easy getting to the park even if it takes an hour.

The original premise was that Miller Park is more accessible than USCF. I still think that notion is incorrect, and just based on the fact that Milwaukee is a much smaller city than is Chicago. I guess my point there would be in ranking all of the parks in baseball in terms of accessibility, I think USCF would be towards the top. I think you have to take where the team is located, how big the metropolis is and related factors, into account and make that relative for each team.

I think of teams in similarly big metropolises. In LA, Chavez Ravine is near downtown, and yet the traffic is still very troublesome as there aren't many ways to exit the parking lots, and the public transportation options are limited. The Angels may be directly off a highway exit in Anaheim and that might be slightly easier to get to, but still there are less options there than at USCF. While LA is not known for having good transportation options, New York is. Yankee Stadium is not difficult to get to, as I believe there are two subway stop one can use to see a Yankees game, as well as Metro-North. Parking there may be annoyingly expensive, but the road options aren't that awful considering it's in New York. Citi Field, on the other end, is way in Flushing and more difficult to get to, despite being near several highways and subway and LIRR stops, as while it is located technically within city limits, it's rather far out from the center of the city of New York.

Taking location, the number of transportation options, the size of the city and it's related traffic, and the ease of access and parking into account, I do think that USCF is one of the most easily accessible stadiums in all of baseball.

No, obviously the difficulty in getting to the Cell is something we will much more happily--and frequently--endure when the Sox are playing well (starting to be such a distant memory now...). I think, however, the problem under discussion here maybe boils down to a definition of "accessibility". Yes, I would grant that if you are defining accessibility as a range of options that can be accessed by people from different parts of the metropolitan area, the Cell is "accessible" and certainly more so than, say, a Dodger Stadium.

But, "accessibility" also can't be divorced from the "ease component" in my mind. For example, I can get to the Cell using multiple freeway routes and by taking the train and El, or by taking the Sox bus (add in an extra half hour each way + the drive to the pick-up/drop-off site) but if all of them are time-and-fuel-consuming then that knocks "accessibility" out of the box in my world.

Hitmen77
08-04-2011, 10:22 AM
But does that travel hinder you when the team is playing well? I acknowledge two factors that have kept me away from the park this season: 1, I'm broke and can't afford it, and 2, the team sucks and I just won't enjoy it as much. But traveling to the park is a constant known no matter how the team is performing, and as I live not far from the el, it's pretty easy getting to the park even if it takes an hour.

The original premise was that Miller Park is more accessible than USCF. I still think that notion is incorrect, and just based on the fact that Milwaukee is a much smaller city than is Chicago. I guess my point there would be in ranking all of the parks in baseball in terms of accessibility, I think USCF would be towards the top. I think you have to take where the team is located, how big the metropolis is and related factors, into account and make that relative for each team.

I think of teams in similarly big metropolises. In LA, Chavez Ravine is near downtown, and yet the traffic is still very troublesome as there aren't many ways to exit the parking lots, and the public transportation options are limited. The Angels may be directly off a highway exit in Anaheim and that might be slightly easier to get to, but still there are less options there than at USCF. While LA is not known for having good transportation options, New York is. Yankee Stadium is not difficult to get to, as I believe there are two subway stop one can use to see a Yankees game, as well as Metro-North. Parking there may be annoyingly expensive, but the road options aren't that awful considering it's in New York. Citi Field, on the other end, is way in Flushing and more difficult to get to, despite being near several highways and subway and LIRR stops, as while it is located technically within city limits, it's rather far out from the center of the city of New York.

Taking location, the number of transportation options, the size of the city and it's related traffic, and the ease of access and parking into account, I do think that USCF is one of the most easily accessible stadiums in all of baseball.

I agree that the commute issue itself is a relative constant. It was the same when the Sox drew well in 2006 as it is now. But, to answer your question, I think the other factors (lousy/unlikeable team, bad economy) exposes this problem.

It's simply a factor that affects attendance. It's not the end all, be all of why the Sox do or don't draw well. When other things are going bad, then it comes into play. I also think it's a two way street for the Sox. For some fans, the park is very accessible thanks to the el and the proximity to downtown. For others, it's a drawback due to traffic and the expanse of the Chicago area. This doesn't make people "wrong" or "whiners" (aimed at others, not you), it's just a reality that has always been a part of the Sox attendance mix.

Two of the biggest things people have to balance in life are 1) money and 2) time. When the product is good and exciting, people find it easier to justify using up more of both to see something good. When the product is ****ty, people think long and hard about their budgeting of money and time for something that sucks.

Why I am not surprised city snobs sticking up their noses when the burbs are even mentioned? Someone points out it's easier to get to one place that is farther than another, and its an outrage that a fact is pointed out? Seriously? How hard is to grasp that some people don't want to the trouble of watching crappy baseball? I didn't see complaining at all. It was FACTS being pointed out. How dare they point this out?

I would point out that I no longer attend week night games. I do work in Northbrook, and it takes an hour to get to the ball park with no traffic. But, I'd be complaining, so I shouldn't bring it up. I'm sorry I have to make a living, but that's life...

:clap:

Thank you. I love it how there are always people just be chomping at the bit to throw out their "wah wah suburanites!:whiner:" comments.

Chez
08-04-2011, 10:32 AM
Well that's the underlying point, the reason people don't want to come out to see the Sox is that they suck. If the team was playing 1/2 as good as many people expected them to, then all the traffic and parking excuses would fly out the window, and the park would be rocking.

Winner.

kobo
08-04-2011, 10:36 AM
I agree that the commute issue itself is a relative constant. It was the same when the Sox drew well in 2006 as it is now. But, to answer your question, I think the other factors (lousy/unlikeable team, bad economy) exposes this problem.

It's simply a factor that affects attendance. It's not the end all, be all of why the Sox do or don't draw well. When other things are going bad, then it comes into play. I also think it's a two way street for the Sox. For some fans, the park is very accessible thanks to the el and the proximity to downtown. For others, it's a drawback due to traffic and the expanse of the Chicago area. This doesn't make people "wrong" or "whiners" (aimed at others, not you), it's just a reality that has always been a part of the Sox attendance mix.

Two of the biggest things people have to balance in life are 1) money and 2) time. When the product is good and exciting, people find it easier to justify using up more of both to see something good. When the product is ****ty, people think long and hard about their budgeting of money and time for something that sucks.



:clap:

Thank you. I love it how there are always people just be chomping at the bit to throw out their "wah wah suburanites!:whiner:" comments.
Another factor, which I hate to mention because it will just cause people to go off, is that the area in which the Cell is located is still considered by many people to be a bad or dangerous area. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to tell people that the area is not as bad as it used to be and that it's a huge difference compared to say 20 years ago. The reputation though is out there in the minds of casual fans or even fans from out of town. That's another thing that needs to change, but not sure how that can be changed.

Milw
08-04-2011, 10:49 AM
Another factor, which I hate to mention because it will just cause people to go off, is that the area in which the Cell is located is still considered by many people to be a bad or dangerous area. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to tell people that the area is not as bad as it used to be and that it's a huge difference compared to say 20 years ago. The reputation though is out there in the minds of casual fans or even fans from out of town. That's another thing that needs to change, but not sure how that can be changed.
That's true. I had a friend from out of town email me last year saying she and her mother, a Twins fan, were in Chicago for a Sox-Min series and wanted to know "the safest way to get to the stadium, since we've heard the Sox park is in a pretty sketchy neighborhood." Despite my telling her that was a long-inaccurate stereotype, she didn't believe me. In fact, when I told her that the easiest way to get there from their downtown hotel would be to take the L, they considered not going at all.

So, yeah, perception is reality for many people.

hi im skot
08-04-2011, 10:51 AM
Another factor, which I hate to mention because it will just cause people to go off, is that the area in which the Cell is located is still considered by many people to be a bad or dangerous area. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to tell people that the area is not as bad as it used to be and that it's a huge difference compared to say 20 years ago. The reputation though is out there in the minds of casual fans or even fans from out of town. That's another thing that needs to change, but not sure how that can be changed.

Send 'em to Englewood first, then Bridgeport. That'll get them to change their minds...

Brian26
08-04-2011, 10:56 AM
Why is that an "excuse" and "hilarious". On weeknights, it's tough for people who live far from the Cell to get there on work nights. It's not an excuse, it's a long-time reality.

Newsflash, most people who live and work in the Chicago area have to deal with horrendous traffic on a daily basis to get to and from work. I don't think the Cell is in an especially difficult place to find. Well, I can say this, it's closer to the expressway than Wrigley. I don't hear many Flub fans whining.

People who have other commitments that conflict with this (children, etc.) aren't all simply being "babies" about it.

It's unfortunate White Sox fans are the only fan base in MLB that has children (& etc) to deal with. We're cursed.

Don't you have a sleeve patch that nobody notices to complain about?

Yes, I already addressed that. Brooks needs to keep the new graphic artist/marketing intern busy with her job. It's still not as ridiculous as claiming people don't want to go to games because it's too hard to get there.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 11:05 AM
Why I am not surprised city snobs sticking up their noses when the burbs are even mentioned? Someone points out it's easier to get to one place that is farther than another, and its an outrage that a fact is pointed out? Seriously? How hard is to grasp that some people don't want to the trouble of watching crappy baseball? I didn't see complaining at all. It was FACTS being pointed out. How dare they point this out?

That excuse on its own is perfectly fine. To pull out the "it's too hard to get to or takes too long" excuse comes off as whining, big-time. Sorry, that's the truth. Yet, nobody here is claiming they'd even go to more games if the Cell was magically placed in their backyard.

I would point out that I no longer attend week night games. I do work in Northbrook, and it takes an hour to get to the ball park with no traffic. But, I'd be complaining, so I shouldn't bring it up. I'm sorry I have to make a living, but that's life...It takes me an hour to get there on the L including the walk. I'm going to guess most people, either by car the entire way from the burbs or taking the L (including walking to the train and back) probably clock-in around an hour each way. That's just a reality and a time investment you make when you go to a game, whether the team is going to win 99 games or finish in last place.

Using the traffic or time excuse independently is just lame right now. Sounds like typical fickle White Sox fan whining. Again, if the team sucks, that's good enough of an excuse to not go. Don't whine because it's too hard to get there from Elgin or Wheaton or wherever you chose to live. The Sox didn't put a gun to anyone's head and make them live in Kane or Lake County. These are the same people that will sit in traffic for two hours on the weekend to go down to the Lake and hang out in Chicago.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 11:10 AM
...and no, thank YOU, Kittle42 for making this into a slam against suburbanites.

Always glad to help!

Brian26
08-04-2011, 11:13 AM
If someone magically picked up the Cell and dropped it in Oak Brook right now where 88, 294 and Rt 83 all somewhat converge, I'm sure there'd be a contingent of Sox fans that would complain that you couldn't see the Chicago skyline from the parking lots and can't get there by Metra, so they refuse to go to any more games.

Marqhead
08-04-2011, 11:13 AM
I had a meeting and missed the rest of the argument, but Skot that pic made me laugh out loud.

There's valid points on both sides. I think everyone can agree that when the Sox suck they aren't going to draw well for obvious reasons, but there are things they could do to draw fans to the park even in down years. Things they aren't currently doing.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 11:15 AM
It takes me an hour to get there on the L including the walk. I'm going to guess most people, either by car the entire way from the burbs or taking the L (including walking to the train and back) probably clock-in around an hour each way. That's just a reality and a time investment you make when you go to a game, whether the team is going to win 99 games or finish in last place.

Using the traffic or time excuse independently is just lame right now. Sounds like typical fickle White Sox fan whining.

Couldn't agree more. From my door to the L to the stadium, it can be an hour each way.

GoGoCrede
08-04-2011, 11:26 AM
I live well north of USCF and don't own a car. Getting to USCF has never been a problem.


Same. It's about an hour each way on the train. I made the trip thirty times last season. I rather liked it, gave me time to do homework that I wouldn't have otherwise done because of the game. :smile:

hi im skot
08-04-2011, 11:31 AM
Man, first world problems, AMIRITE.

jdm2662
08-04-2011, 11:43 AM
That excuse on its own is perfectly fine. To pull out the "it's too hard to get to or takes too long" excuse comes off as whining, big-time. Sorry, that's the truth. Yet, nobody here is claiming they'd even go to more games if the Cell was magically placed in their backyard.

It takes me an hour to get there on the L including the walk. I'm going to guess most people, either by car the entire way from the burbs or taking the L (including walking to the train and back) probably clock-in around an hour each way. That's just a reality and a time investment you make when you go to a game, whether the team is going to win 99 games or finish in last place.

Using the traffic or time excuse independently is just lame right now. Sounds like typical fickle White Sox fan whining. Again, if the team sucks, that's good enough of an excuse to not go. Don't whine because it's too hard to get there from Elgin or Wheaton or wherever you chose to live. The Sox didn't put a gun to anyone's head and make them live in Kane or Lake County. These are the same people that will sit in traffic for two hours on the weekend to go down to the Lake and hang out in Chicago.

And I did not complain, not one time. I was just pointing out what others were trying to say, going to the trouble of getting to the ball park is not worth it when the team sucks. Is that hard to grasp? I think not.

And, to note, the only time I got to the ballpark in a hour from work was on the blackout night. That also happened to be a Jewish holiday to where traffic was similar to a weekend. On a typical week night, it will take 1:30-2 hrs if I'm lucky. I did it a few times in 2008. Even if they were good, I probably wouldn't be doing it. My life is completely different now, and I have many other things to worry about. i'm especially not doing this when the team sucks.

I've been to six games this year. I live within walking distance from the Metra stop, and I easily transfer to the Green line either at Oak Park or downtown. If I go with my family, I will more than likely drive from Elmhurst. It's a block away from 290/294/88. Getting to the park isn't a big deal to me. It's a matter if I want to dedicate my time to it.

But hey, what do I know? I'm just some dumb ass who lives in the burbs. I'm not as cool as city people.

Brian26
08-04-2011, 11:45 AM
I think everyone can agree that when the Sox suck they aren't going to draw well for obvious reasons, but there are things they could do to draw fans to the park even in down years. Things they aren't currently doing.

Like hanging the Sox Pride Crew upside down by their feet from the Fundamentals Deck and blasting them with super soakers everytime Dunn strikes out and Rios grounds out weakly to shortstop.

LITTLE NELL
08-04-2011, 11:48 AM
If someone magically picked up the Cell and dropped it in Oak Brook right now where 88, 294 and Rt 83 all somewhat converge, I'm sure there'd be a contingent of Sox fans that would complain that you couldn't see the Chicago skyline from the parking lots and can't get there by Metra, so they refuse to go to any more games.

Bottom line is that White Sox fans are as passionate for their team as it comes. The difference is that we will not support a loser like the sheep that flock into The Urinal.

Gammons Peter
08-04-2011, 11:51 AM
Its a small fan base AND the team sucks.

JB98
08-04-2011, 11:58 AM
Takes me about 90 minutes to get to the Cell from North Aurora. I like to drive to Oak Park, park in one of the public garages (free on Sundays!) and take the Green to 35th. About 40-45 minutes in the car and another 40-45 minutes on the train. I can't say the commute has ever deterred me from going to games. ****ty play and finances most certainly have.

I always get a kick out of how city people are so eager to snip at people who live in the suburbs. Hey, you may have no desire to live in the burbs, but I have no desire to live in the city either. It's different strokes for different folks. No need to be snide.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 12:53 PM
I always get a kick out of how city people are so eager to snip at people who live in the suburbs. Hey, you may have no desire to live in the burbs, but I have no desire to live in the city either. It's different strokes for different folks. No need to be snide.

Of course, that's true, but there is a degree of whininess to someone who lives way out in the burbs when they complain about how long it takes to get to Sox games. The White Sox have played at the same corner for what now? 101 years? Everybody has to make sacrifices about their living condition; sure it'd probably be fun to have a huge yard and a 3-car garage, but I live in the city because I prefer to be able to go to ball games, walk to the grocery store, go to world class restaurants, have access to good public transportation, etc.

There are plenty of good reasons why people stay away from the park; its expensive, I have an HDTV, the team sucks, I don't want to sit around with a bunch of jag-offs from Boston or New York, etc... But complaining that it takes me so long to get from my house to the Cell.. That comes off as whiny.

kittle42
08-04-2011, 01:08 PM
I always get a kick out of how city people are so eager to snip at people who live in the suburbs. Hey, you may have no desire to live in the burbs, but I have no desire to live in the city either. It's different strokes for different folks. No need to be snide.

But I *like* being snide!

Sorry, I grew up in the city, went to a high school in Oak Park surrounded by kids from the burbs, went to a college surrounded by kids from the burbs of various cities, and now as an adult in Lakeview am surrounded by suburban transplants. I shall always carry my angst.

JB98
08-04-2011, 01:14 PM
Of course, that's true, but there is a degree of whininess to someone who lives way out in the burbs when they complain about how long it takes to get to Sox games. The White Sox have played at the same corner for what now? 101 years? Everybody has to make sacrifices about their living condition; sure it'd probably be fun to have a huge yard and a 3-car garage, but I live in the city because I prefer to be able to go to ball games, walk to the grocery store, go to world class restaurants, have access to good public transportation, etc.

There are plenty of good reasons why people stay away from the park; its expensive, I have an HDTV, the team sucks, I don't want to sit around with a bunch of jag-offs from Boston or New York, etc... But complaining that it takes me so long to get from my house to the Cell.. That comes off as whiny.

And I would never make that complaint. If you really want to go to the game, you find a way to get there. There are several options coming from North Aurora, and I've used all of them at some point or another.

doublem23
08-04-2011, 01:18 PM
And I would never make that complaint.

Well then the snide comments aren't being directed at you. :cool:

sox102
08-04-2011, 01:36 PM
:popcorn:

jdm2662
08-04-2011, 01:39 PM
But I *like* being snide!

Sorry, I grew up in the city, went to a high school in Oak Park surrounded by kids from the burbs, went to a college surrounded by kids from the burbs of various cities, and now as an adult in Lakeview am surrounded by suburban transplants. I shall always carry my angst.

Wow, that's horrible. I'm so sorry you weren't around people as cool as you are. I'm also sorry to be on the same message board as you are. After all, some poor sap from Hillside doesn't belong discussing things with cool city people like yourself.

Milw
08-04-2011, 01:46 PM
Wow, that's horrible. I'm so sorry you weren't around people as cool as you are. I'm also sorry to be on the same message board as you are. After all, some poor sap from Hillside doesn't belong discussing things with cool city people like yourself.
Well said. I've lived in the burbs, the city, in between (Oak Park) and even the country, and I can assure you, the people are all the same. Some are cool, some are weird, some are smart, some are dumb, and some, obviously, are holier-than-thou jackasses.

Hitmen77
08-04-2011, 01:50 PM
If someone magically picked up the Cell and dropped it in Oak Brook right now where 88, 294 and Rt 83 all somewhat converge, I'm sure there'd be a contingent of Sox fans that would complain that you couldn't see the Chicago skyline from the parking lots and can't get there by Metra, so they refuse to go to any more games.

:scratch: Maybe I missed it, but I don't see anyone in this thread wishing the Sox played out in the suburbs instead of at 35th St....or suggesting that the franchise would be better off out there. In fact, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any posts on WSI over the years that ever made such a claim/wish.

I think some of you guys are reading way too much into people simply saying that getting to the Cell is not easy for all fans. That's just a simple fact. The two things that many people (especially those with families) find in short supply are money and time. Just because it becomes a factor in deciding how many games to attend doesn't make people whiners or stupid suburbanites.

....funny how this whole city vs. suburbs uproar started with a simple suggestion that Miller Park is easier to get to than the Cell. That suggestion is certainly debatable, but I guess it doesn't take much to stir up people's feelings over the suburbs and suburbanites.

Marqhead
08-04-2011, 01:50 PM
Well said. I've lived in the burbs, the city, in between (Oak Park) and even the country, and I can assure you, the people are all the same. Some are cool, some are weird, some are smart, some are dumb, and some, obviously, are holier-than-thou jackasses.

I just like that a discussion about accessibility turned into a suburb-city bitchfest. I still stand by my comment that all things considered (time, price, location) Miller Park is more accessible (maybe that's not the right word) than the Cell.

soltrain21
08-04-2011, 01:51 PM
WSI MMA presents:

SUBURBS VS CITY 1: ROCKING THE SUBURBS

Kittle42 vs. Milw
Brian26 vs. GoSox2k3

And featuring...

The comedic styling of Homefish and special musical guest MarySwiss.

Hendu
08-04-2011, 01:52 PM
Hey if you think the suburbs get a bad rap from some of the holier-than-thou city dwellers, try living in a non-trendy area of the city. I'm a 10 minute bus ride from Logan Square, but I might as well live in Aurora according to some of my fellow city residents. So don't feel too singled out, suburbanites...the snobbery exists within the city limits as well.

By the way, it takes me anywhere from an hour and an hour and a half to get home after a game on the el/bus. Depends on my connections, and whether the CTA is single tracking the blue line at night.