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Daver
07-12-2002, 01:07 PM
From the Padres.

So much for the catcher of the future. (http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20020712&content_id=80330&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp)

Paulwny
07-12-2002, 01:14 PM
D'Angelo is a guy we have had our eyes on for a number of years," said Ken Williams, White Sox general manager. "We thought he was one of the quality shortstop prospects in the game three years ago before his accident. Now that he is completely healed, we are looking forward to returning D'Angelo to his natural position at shortstop. Adding D'Angelo gives us a greater degree of infield depth


So much for Hummel at ss.

kermittheefrog
07-12-2002, 01:15 PM
I love this deal, the Sox finally acquire someone useful.

Paulwny
07-12-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I love this deal, the Sox finally acquire someone useful.

Agree

Jerry_Manuel
07-12-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I love this deal, the Sox finally acquire someone useful.

WOW! Kermit giving kudos to Kenny, never thought I'd see the day.

Does it bother you that they sent your guy Alex Fernandez away?

Randar68
07-12-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by daver
From the Padres.

So much for the catcher of the future. (http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20020712&content_id=80330&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp)

Don't scare me like that, I thought you meant Olivo.

Randar68
07-12-2002, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


WOW! Kermit giving kudos to Kenny, never thought I'd see the day.

Does it bother you that they sent your guy Alex Fernandez away?

Non-prospect IMO.

soxtalker
07-12-2002, 01:23 PM
Based on the article, it sounds ok. This adds more evidence that we may see an entirely new infield -- with the exception of Konerko -- by next season. It does sound like they are betting that this fellow will have made a complete recovery.

rmusacch
07-12-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


Non-prospect IMO.

I agree with the glut of outfielders that we have that are young.

rmusacch
07-12-2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker
Based on the article, it sounds ok. This adds more evidence that we may see an entirely new infield -- with the exception of Konerko -- by next season. It does sound like they are betting that this fellow will have made a complete recovery.

I think that this is a good move. I have always liked Jimenez. He was moved from short because of Jeter. I just hope that it does not mean that we won't see Crede next year either since Manos still has a year left on his contract.

Jerry_Manuel
07-12-2002, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
Non-prospect IMO.

Good.

What does this move do to Hummel?

Paulwny
07-12-2002, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


Good.

What does this move do to Hummel?

Fights with Harris for 2nd base.

Jerry_Manuel
07-12-2002, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by rmusacch
I think that this is a good move. I have always liked Jimenez. He was moved from short because of Jeter. I just hope that it does not mean that we won't see Crede next year either since Manos still has a year left on his contract.

We'll see Joe. He's out of options, if the Sox attempt to send him back down he'd have to clear waivers first.

rmusacch
07-12-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Jerry_Manuel


We'll see Joe. He's out of options, if the Sox attempt to send him back down he'd have to clear waivers first.

I thought that was the case and that makes me feel good but knowing the Sox they probably would attempt to send him down and let some other team claim him since they obviously have something against him.

CerberusWG
07-12-2002, 01:43 PM
Wow, EXCELLENT trade. Olivio is the C of the future, and we give up a guy who can't walk and a Defensive Catcher.

EXCELLENT trade.

pudge
07-12-2002, 02:00 PM
Could it mean Jose's at 2B with Ray getting traded? Or will we get just as many errors with Jose at 2B as we do with Ray? Maybe Jose will be SS next year while they wait and see what Jiminez can do. I like Ray, but I'd like to get something good for him this year, and dump Clayton. Then it'd be nice to see Crede and Jiminez in the IF.

34 Inch Stick
07-12-2002, 02:07 PM
I've had my eye on that guy ever since he was a Yankee prospect. He was talked about in similar terms to Soriano (obviously not anymore). He was supposed to be an excellenct fielder with a good bat. As long as he can field, with range, and hit .250 he will be the best shortstop in the organization.

Looks good Kenny.

Anyone have fielding stats on him.

soxtalker
07-12-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by pudge
Could it mean Jose's at 2B with Ray getting traded? Or will we get just as many errors with Jose at 2B as we do with Ray? Maybe Jose will be SS next year while they wait and see what Jiminez can do. I like Ray, but I'd like to get something good for him this year, and dump Clayton. Then it'd be nice to see Crede and Jiminez in the IF.

They may be setting up several scenarios. This looks like it puts them in a better position to go young. Right now, Ray is probably the most easily traded with his batting average, but they probably would be quite happy to move Clayton or Valentine.

ScottyTheSoxFan
07-12-2002, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Anyone have fielding stats on him.

from espn.com
Hitting
Jimenez is a patient, contact hitter with above-average power for a middle fielder. He is just a couple of years removed from a 15-homer season with Triple-A Columbus in 1999. He will struggle against pitchers who change speeds well, however. Although he's a switch-hitter, he's much better from the left side of the plate.


Baserunning & Defense
Jimenez has above-average speed, but his basestealing skills are not polished enough to take advantage of it. He has decent range at short. He has the potential to become a very good shortstop with better positioning and footwork.


2002 Outlook
Jimenez missed almost all of the 2000 season due to a neck fracture he suffered in an offseason car accident. So it remains to be seen if his inconsistent defense in 2001 was due to the layoff, fatigue, rookie jitters or perhaps permanent lingering effects from the injury. If he plays up to the level he displayed as a 21-year-old in Triple-A ball in 1999, he'll be a key component of San Diego's middle infield. Jimenez now looks like the starting second baseman for 2002, as the Padres traded for Seattle shortstop prospect Ramon Vazquez during the offseason.

34rancher
07-12-2002, 02:28 PM
So the question is, where does he fit? To aquire a major leaguer without giving up one means that someone just lost a roster spot. Who?

WinningUgly!
07-12-2002, 02:30 PM
Great deal KW! Wasn't there a rumored deal in the works between the Sox & Yanks last season involving Jimenez before he was dealt to SD?

Cheryl
07-12-2002, 02:36 PM
You guys are scaring me, saying KW did something right. You guys never like trades.

Randar68
07-12-2002, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by 34 Inch Stick
Anyone have fielding stats on him.

Over 20 errors in just over 80 games at SS at the MLB level.

Tragg
07-12-2002, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
I love this deal, the Sox finally acquire someone useful.

Sounds good to me.

DrCrawdad
07-12-2002, 02:39 PM
Jason Dellaero, get used to pitching or get ready to move.

MarkEdward
07-12-2002, 02:42 PM
I have to give credit to Williams on this one. He got someone very usefull for a non-prospect and defensive catcher (there's a defensive catcher on the waiver wire almost every week). It's too bad Clayton's on the team, because Jimenez could probably be our starting SS right now.

danman31
07-12-2002, 02:43 PM
I always have liked Jiminez. I think this is a great deal if the guys we traded were worthless. Quintero isn't the catcher I was thinking when you said catcher of the future.

Iwritecode
07-12-2002, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by Cheryl
You guys are scaring me, saying KW did something right. You guys never like trades.

Yea, I keep wondering where all the teal is...

Daver
07-12-2002, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by danman31
I always have liked Jiminez. I think this is a great deal if the guys we traded were worthless. Quintero isn't the catcher I was thinking when you said catcher of the future.


For the record I was being sarcastic with the catcher of the future comment.

longshot7
07-12-2002, 02:54 PM
I've seen him quite a bit against the Dodgers, and I too am impressed. However, it does create a logjam. Crede/Valentin/Jimenez for two spots on the left side next year. Maybe they're right about to move Jose.

Spiff
07-12-2002, 02:56 PM
mixed opinions from the espn pads board

"Jimenez has no power and no real speed so he isn't a corner outfield potential or a real thrid baseman. He is a fringe player as it turns out and maybe he does better in a differnet location...The team will be better off without DJ."

" I honestly think DJ will do better in the AL where he can occassionally DH and defense isn't so critical."

"time for him to become a star......he was really starting to heat up recently i thought....."

"after watching him this year i became very disenchanted with his play. he has a lot of tools....but he has nothing upstairs. i didn't care so much about the fielding, the streaky hitting or even the baserunning errors. i mean...they all played into it....but the bigger issue is that alot of it stems from just being clueless. and it's too bad...."


edit: my opinion—a crap-for-crap trade.

DrCrawdad
07-12-2002, 03:00 PM
Comparing some infielders

Jimenez/Clayton/Valentin/AGonzalez
http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/stats/mlb_sortable_player_stats.jsp?compare.x=&box6=XXXX123610XXXX&section1=9&statSet1=1&statType=1&sortByStat=Last_Name&timeFrame=1&timeSubFrame=2002&baseballScope=mlb&isCompare=true&subScope=teamCode&teamPosCode=all&box1=XXXX112381cha6&box2=XXXX114924chn6&box3=XXXX150090sdn4&checkBoxTotal=0&playerLocator=valentin

Soxheads
07-12-2002, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Spiff
mixed opinions from the espn pads board




edit: my opinion—a crap-for-crap trade.

I agree. I don't see any of the three making an impact for a while.

kevingrt
07-12-2002, 03:24 PM
Oh, Alex Fernandez, didnt he pitch a no-no???

raul12
07-12-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by daver
From the Padres.

So much for the catcher of the future. (http://whitesox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/cws/news/cws_press_release.jsp?ymd=20020712&content_id=80330&vkey=pr_cws&fext=.jsp)

WE'RE GOING TO THE WORLD F'N SERIES!!!!!

:D: :D: :) :) :gulp: :gulp: (damn, can't include a bunch of tags in a single post...what kind of a message board is this?)

JESUS JIMENEZ IS BRINGING US TO THE PROMISED LAND!

seriously though, seems like a decent trade, although definitely not a knock-your-socks-off deal--not every one has to be though. at least it seems like there's hopefully some rational thought behind this one. and the most important thing--we traded away people we didn't need and had no forseeable future with this club.

BoozeSlut
07-12-2002, 03:33 PM
I live in San Diego, and although on paper it's a good trade with long term potential, I will refrain from getting too excited. He's been considered a dissapointment here. He's batting .240 with 3hrs and 4 steals, comparable to Clayton but with admittedly more upside. But his defense has been atrocious, and I've seen it in person. In one game I went to last year he mad 2 awful looking errors. He often seems to lack concentration, most of his errors show lack of proper hand-eye coordination, and pivot throw accuracy. He is young and recovering from a serious injury and has great upside, but needs some serious work on his defense. Luckily he's not a pitcher so Nardi can't screw him up...oh wait...he pitched 1.1 innings of relief for the Padres a few weeks ago(seriously!) and didn't give up a hit. They say his fastball was clocked at 73. He had last pitched in junior high school. From the files of "Ripley's Believe It Or Not".

:butter
"damn...I'll never make it back to the bigs" :gulp:

Chisoxfn
07-12-2002, 03:38 PM
Congrats KW. This is the first trade I really like a lot. In Jimenez we get a guy that can help us now and in the future and he can team up with Crede to be part of a great young infield. Plus, we didn't give up too much as Quintero was stuck behind Paul, MJ, and Olivio and Fernandez is stuck behind Borchard, Rowand, Liefer, and Caballo. I like Fernandez quite a bit, but I like Jimenez more.

Its hard to get a good shortstop that can help you. Jimenez is fast, has offensive tools, defensive tools, switch hits and can help our team quite a bit.

kermittheefrog
07-12-2002, 03:56 PM
Partially cross-posted to the White Sox Listserv:

I love this deal. We're getting a guy who everyone knows is talented and has shown a knowledge of the strike zone for a guy who everyone knows is talented but hasn't ever heard of ball 4 plus a minor league backup catcher who throws hard. If thats not good enough the guy we're getting plays an up the middle position. A year ago a lot of smart people thought Jimenez was going to be a better player than Alfonso Soriano and while that doesn't look too likely right now he could still be very good.

I did like Fernandez but I liked him more as a project that could turn out well. Jimenez is a more pedigreed player and could be an impact on the major league level as soon as we get rid of Royce Clayton. I was a big fan of Jimenez in the Yankees org and I was jealous when the Pads got him for Jay Witasick. Good to have him a board, now he better get a shot or I'm gonna be seriously PO'ed.

soxtalker
07-12-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by BoozeSlut
I live in San Diego, and although on paper it's a good trade with long term potential, I will refrain from getting too excited. He's been considered a dissapointment here. He's batting .240 with 3hrs and 4 steals, comparable to Clayton but with admittedly more upside. But his defense has been atrocious, and I've seen it in person. ...".

OK -- after seeing this comment, I can't say that I'm over enthusiastic. It is a gamble on both sides, but neither side is risking very much.

Chisoxfn
07-12-2002, 04:04 PM
Kermit I'm with ya 100%. I've seen Jimenez play quite a bit since I live in Socal(About an hour and 10 from San Diego) and the guy is a very good player. He already can hit(Although he's not doing great this year), but he also has all the tools to be an exceptional player. The guy I'd compare him to is Jimmy Rollins of the Phillies. I really think he can become a very productive leadoff or #2 hitter. I finally think KW has an idea and I just love this deal.

I'm with you on Fernandez. I like him a lot and he probably had another two years in the minors, but I also don't know where we'd play him. Jimenez fills an immediate need for this team and will help us in the long run. We had nothing at shortstop and I don't want anyone telling me Hummel can play there effectively. Now Hummel can go back to his normal position and harris can work at improving his centerfield defense(Even though I think he'll end up as a platoon player for us)

Now its time we sit back and wait to see what move comes next. Jimenez is going to be up very soon and so will Crede and I think KW now is just going to move either Ray and Lofton or Jose and Lofton. If he moves Ray, then Jose would move to 2nd and if he moves Jose then ray will stay where he is and go back to leading off while Jimenez would move to the #2 hole. Then again we could hold onto Lofton. Either way look for us to move one or two of our middle infielders as well as an outfielder to get a pitcher in return. Maybe we are looking into Brad Penny. I wouldn't mind a Jeff Liefer and a prospect or Carlos Lee straight up for Penny. Heck, maybe we could even make a push at AJ Burnett.

Another guy I like is Tim Redding of the Astros, but I don't know if we'd be able to pick him up.

BoozeSlut
07-12-2002, 04:18 PM
Once again I don't want to temper enthusiasm, I think it is a good trade. But, he needs serious defensive work. He has almost looked lost at some of the games I've attended here in SD. Royce will be gone next year and I'm sure that's why we got Jimenez, but you are basically kissing your sister on this one, because the bat may be better, but his defense sucks.

LongDistanceFan
07-12-2002, 04:37 PM
i too like this trade. kw has done a trade that could really help and for what. the cat we traded, i was never impress with b/c of his hitting and i really don't know too much about this fernandez kid. i will give way to the more knowledgeable people here on this board. but i see this as gamble that we might come out on top.

what gets me is several things.....
the crowd that we have in the "if". its not like we have space for all of them. somebody has to go, does this mean a trade in the working?
before the terrible car accident, i think alot of so-called minor experts was saying that DJ had the higher ceiling. so lets say that these past season, he is still getting over his bad accident and getting his Psyche back, this kid is going to be really good. if he doesn't rebound, he will still be above avg "if", better than what we have right now.

over all i really like the trade and i think we have not given up too much to get him.

LongDistanceFan
07-12-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by BoozeSlut
Once again I don't want to temper enthusiasm, I think it is a good trade. But, he needs serious defensive work. He has almost looked lost at some of the games I've attended here in SD. Royce will be gone next year and I'm sure that's why we got Jimenez, but you are basically kissing your sister on this one, because the bat may be better, but his defense sucks.

you have seen him more than i have, but let me ask you this question, could his "d" be b/c of some lingering effects of his injury?

Chisox_cali
07-12-2002, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by LongDistanceFan


what gets me is several things..... SD has quietly assembling a stable of young arms that is decent to good. question, what do they see that we haven't in Fernandez?


I think you may be confused, Fernandez is an OF, not a pitcher like the other Alex Fernandez. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

Randar68
07-12-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by BoozeSlut
Once again I don't want to temper enthusiasm, I think it is a good trade. But, he needs serious defensive work. He has almost looked lost at some of the games I've attended here in SD. Royce will be gone next year and I'm sure that's why we got Jimenez, but you are basically kissing your sister on this one, because the bat may be better, but his defense sucks.

I agree, and I am not very enthused by this deal. I don't see Jimenez as a long term solution. Defense is shoddy, effort is shoddy, and his speed is unutilized by his poor/tentative instincts...

I don't mind that we traded 2 guys that would likely never contribute, but to go ape-****e over this deal is being unrealistic.

LongDistanceFan
07-12-2002, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


I think you may be confused, Fernandez is an OF, not a pitcher like the other Alex Fernandez. Unless I'm misunderstanding you. yes i am confuse on this one. thanks

as i said i am not up on him. man i feel like a idiot...... thanks :)

Daver
07-12-2002, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Randar68


I agree, and I am not very enthused by this deal. I don't see Jimenez as a long term solution. Defense is shoddy, effort is shoddy, and his speed is unutilized by his poor/tentative instincts...

I don't mind that we traded 2 guys that would likely never contribute, but to go ape-****e over this deal is being unrealistic.


The way I see it Randar,KW traded 2 guys that will never play in the major leagues,for a guy that is destined to be a utility guy off the bench on the MLB level.

soxtalker
07-12-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Randar68
I don't mind that we traded 2 guys that would likely never contribute, but to go ape-****e over this deal is being unrealistic.

Considering how KW has done on trades, it's probably just as well that this is a low-risk minor deal. My impression is that the deals he is thought to have done best in are those for Harris and Marte*. Neither is probably in the major deal category.





*I'm not sure about the Marte deal yet. Someone from Pittsburgh commented on the board that he tended to have problems in clutch situations. We probably haven't provided many of those. And it is a bit early to evaluate the other side of the deal.

Chisox_cali
07-12-2002, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by soxtalker


*I'm not sure about the Marte deal yet. Someone from Pittsburgh commented on the board that he tended to have problems in clutch situations. We probably haven't provided many of those. And it is a bit early to evaluate the other side of the deal.

Well Guerrier is 3-10 with a 5.33 ERA for AAA Nashville, so we may have won that deal.

Spiff
07-12-2002, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by daver



The way I see it Randar,KW traded 2 guys that will never play in the major leagues,for a guy that is destined to be a utility guy off the bench on the MLB level.

whoop whoop go us

Soxheads
07-12-2002, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Chisox_cali


Well Guerrier is 3-10 with a 5.33 ERA for AAA Nashville, so we may have won that deal.

Well, the only other pitcher that bad is pitching tonite. :(:

TheBigHurt
07-12-2002, 06:57 PM
winningugly you've got the best sig. ever...lol

TheBigHurt
07-12-2002, 07:00 PM
by the way in case you think im being sarcastic....im not

Vsahajpal
07-12-2002, 10:38 PM
This may be a first, I'm in kermit's camp!

I like the deal, I like Jimenez, and I think the Sox are poised to move Carlos Lee, replace him with LTP, replace Lofton with Willie Harris, and move Ray Durham.

Alex Fernandez is not a prospect, Mariners organisation knows his age is fudged, they believe he's 3 years older than he's listed.

I don't know who the other prospect is, because I haven't seen a name.

anyways, good trade.

Jerry_Manuel
07-12-2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
This may be a first, I'm in kermit's camp!

I like the deal, I like Jimenez, and I think the Sox are poised to move Carlos Lee, replace him with LTP, replace Lofton with Willie Harris, and move Ray Durham.

I don't know who the other prospect is, because I haven't seen a name.


Did Kermit say you could enter his camp? Or did you sneak in? :D:

That's what I said in a similar thread. Hummel back to 2nd and Harris to center.

Humberto Quintero going to the Pads as well.

LongDistanceFan
07-12-2002, 10:50 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
This may be a first, I'm in kermit's camp!

I like the deal, I like Jimenez, and I think the Sox are poised to move Carlos Lee, replace him with LTP, replace Lofton with Willie Harris, and move Ray Durham.

Alex Fernandez is not a prospect, Mariners organisation knows his age is fudged, they believe he's 3 years older than he's listed.

I don't know who the other prospect is, because I haven't seen a name.

anyways, good trade. good news so far, question where is lee, and durham going or to which team.

by any chance, you would really make my day if you have any guess if clayton is going .......... :D:

Vsahajpal
07-13-2002, 12:30 PM
Durham, if he isn't dealt, would sign next year as a type A free agent and net the Sox 2 high draft picks in an extremely deep draft (college and hs ranks). I think the Dodgers are an ideal trade partner for Ray-Ray.

Lee figures to be the odd man out, I think he's got a chance to be a wonderful hitter. Any team looking for a solid bat should inquire.

Clayton? He's the proverbial albatross (see Hundley, Todd).

soxtalker
07-13-2002, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Durham, if he isn't dealt, would sign next year as a type A free agent and net the Sox 2 high draft picks in an extremely deep draft (college and hs ranks). I think the Dodgers are an ideal trade partner for Ray-Ray.

Lee figures to be the odd man out, I think he's got a chance to be a wonderful hitter. Any team looking for a solid bat should inquire.

Clayton? He's the proverbial albatross (see Hundley, Todd).

That points out another way of looking at a trade of Durham. The other team not only gets his services for the remainder of the season (how every long that is), but they also get the compensation picks if they choose not to sign him.

Garrison
07-13-2002, 01:25 PM
Seems like a good deal to me. Someone useful for a change. Stocking up shortstops huh? Does this further enfore the fact that Royce will be gone next year?

LongDistanceFan
07-13-2002, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Vsahajpal
Durham, if he isn't dealt, would sign next year as a type A free agent and net the Sox 2 high draft picks in an extremely deep draft (college and hs ranks). I think the Dodgers are an ideal trade partner for Ray-Ray.

i agree about the la. last night i was reading all i can about any rumors and it seems as the dodger are looking for a 2b. they have even talked to the mets, b/c theirs is going to be a fa next yr. if we can't get enuf of prospect for ray, then why trade him and let him walk. with a strong draft i rather let him walk and get the picks.

but then again comes the question of the strike. if the strike is still going, who going to sign anybody and the draft will be a regular one.

kermittheefrog
07-13-2002, 03:59 PM
No trades with the Dodgers! They only have one worthwhile prospect, Chin-Feng Chen, and he can't even play a position.

LongDistanceFan
07-13-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by kermittheefrog
No trades with the Dodgers! They only have one worthwhile prospect, Chin-Feng Chen, and he can't even play a position. yea their cupboard is kinda of bare imo