PDA

View Full Version : KW - In 6 days I may blow up the team (also: JR Wants to Cut Payroll)


Fenway
07-25-2011, 08:36 PM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6801390/chicago-white-sox-general-manager-ken-williams-considers-youth-movement-team?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

Oh boy...

DirtySox
07-25-2011, 08:37 PM
Sell sell sell.

balke
07-25-2011, 08:39 PM
Been waiting for this since the Minnesota series. Kenny has been extremely patient. A couple of guys are at a good sell high point of their career.

A. Cavatica
07-25-2011, 08:44 PM
Blow it up!

Starting with that coaching staff.

soltrain21
07-25-2011, 08:46 PM
I'm not opposed to it at all - but I'd rather see them win.

Madvora
07-25-2011, 08:49 PM
This is the exact type of thing that will get me interested again.

Zakath
07-25-2011, 08:49 PM
Anybody but the Yankees. Or the Red Sox.

No need to let the rich get richer.

FielderJones
07-25-2011, 08:51 PM
Great. White Flag Part Deux. I'm sure it will be the PR masterpiece that the original was.

delben91
07-25-2011, 08:56 PM
Would anyone not be on the trade block? Ignoring the "don't want to sell too low" question for a moment, the only guys I'd really want to keep are:

Santos
Sale
Beckham (I still like his potential, I know others don't)
Alexei

Also, with Konerko, AJ and Buehrle with 10/5 rights, would make dealing them more difficult.

Any others?

mccoydp
07-25-2011, 08:59 PM
After seeing the garbage in the third inning tonight, Kenny needs to do something.

CHISOXFAN13
07-25-2011, 09:01 PM
After seeing the garbage in the third inning tonight, Kenny needs to do something.

Agreed. We are fooling ourselves if we think this group can win anything. I dont care what the deficit is. If JR didn't think we could catch Cleveland in 97, then he sure as hell can't think we can win this division.

samurai_sox
07-25-2011, 09:02 PM
If Kenny really had the best interest of the White Sox organization, he should start by handing in his resignation.

GoGoCrede
07-25-2011, 09:06 PM
Well, this will be interesting as hell.

Scottiehaswheels
07-25-2011, 09:16 PM
Going young means OG/coaching staff is as good as gone right? Blow it up!

Madvora
07-25-2011, 09:31 PM
Great. White Flag Part Deux. I'm sure it will be the PR masterpiece that the original was.
I remember feeling about the Sox just about the same way I did then as I do now. I had no problem with the trade then because I though the team was crap, no matter how close they were to first place. The same goes for this year.

TommyJohn
07-25-2011, 09:31 PM
I find the "blow it up" calls entertaining. Remember July, 1997? The team was 50-51 and 3.5 games back, only because the division was so lousy. What happened when they blew it up? Rage. Anger. Bitterness. So now we have a mediocre team that is close in a lousy division again, and now people say "blow it up." So I assume most fans will be happy if KW tears it down in order to rebuild? There won't be any 180 reversals if this happens?

all*star quentin
07-25-2011, 09:32 PM
Would anyone not be on the trade block? Ignoring the "don't want to sell too low" question for a moment, the only guys I'd really want to keep are:

Santos
Sale
Beckham (I still like his potential, I know others don't)
Alexei

Also, with Konerko, AJ and Buehrle with 10/5 rights, would make dealing them more difficult.

Any others?

Agreed!!

A. Cavatica
07-25-2011, 09:37 PM
I find the "blow it up" calls entertaining. Remember July, 1997? The team was 50-51 and 3.5 games back, only because the division was so lousy. What happened when they blew it up? Rage. Anger. Bitterness. So now we have a mediocre team that is close in a lousy division again, and now people say "blow it up." So I assume most fans will be happy if KW tears it down in order to rebuild? There won't be any 180 reversals if this happens?

Fire the underachieving manager and coaches first, and clean house on Kenny and the players at the end of the season (if they don't turn it around under the new manager).

kittle42
07-25-2011, 09:37 PM
I find the "blow it up" calls entertaining. Remember July, 1997? The team was 50-51 and 3.5 games back, only because the division was so lousy. What happened when they blew it up? Rage. Anger. Bitterness. So now we have a mediocre team that is close in a lousy division again, and now people say "blow it up." So I assume most fans will be happy if KW tears it down in order to rebuild? There won't be any 180 reversals if this happens?

I hated it then and like it now. The main reason? I was 19 then and 33 now - older and wiser...

DSpivack
07-25-2011, 09:40 PM
Would anyone not be on the trade block? Ignoring the "don't want to sell too low" question for a moment, the only guys I'd really want to keep are:

Santos
Sale
Beckham (I still like his potential, I know others don't)
Alexei

Also, with Konerko, AJ and Buehrle with 10/5 rights, would make dealing them more difficult.

Any others?

I agree, I don't see any of them going anywhere. I can see Buehrle getting traded, but the $15 million option that gets picked up with a trade may preclude any deal from occurring.

Also, I don't see any team dumb enough to trade for Dunn, Rios or Peavy. Maybe for another bad contract, but that's still somewhat doubtful to me.

Anyone else is fair game.

A. Cavatica
07-25-2011, 09:42 PM
I hated it then and like it now. The main reason? I was 19 then and 33 now - older and wiser...

However you felt about it then, it brought in some nice cost-controlled relief pitching -- definitely a good move over the long term. And if Barcelo hadn't gotten hurt...

Daver
07-25-2011, 09:57 PM
Would anyone not be on the trade block? Ignoring the "don't want to sell too low" question for a moment, the only guys I'd really want to keep are:

Santos
Sale
Beckham (I still like his potential, I know others don't)
Alexei

Also, with Konerko, AJ and Buehrle with 10/5 rights, would make dealing them more difficult.

Any others?

Sale doesn't have much trade value anyway, but if there is any interest I would hope it was listened to.

Fenway
07-25-2011, 10:03 PM
Anybody but the Yankees. Or the Red Sox.

No need to let the rich get richer.

Hopefully a good series with the Tigers.

I really wish the White Sox were NOT playing Boston at the deadline as the Red Sox are still smarting over being swept at Fenway by Chicago.

The media here at Fenway is curious why KW decided to give WMVP the story and not the Sox own outlets of WSCR or CSN.

This should be an interesting week - good luck.

balke
07-25-2011, 10:19 PM
Sale doesn't have much trade value anyway, but if there is any interest I would hope it was listened to.

Why's that? I think he's definitely the type of pitcher Coop can work with. If anything could be the Sox 5th starter soon.

voodoochile
07-25-2011, 10:24 PM
Sell sell sell.

Win win win...:cool:

Noneck
07-25-2011, 10:28 PM
Scarey stuff if they play well this week and then go back to their typical playing style.

Fenway
07-25-2011, 10:29 PM
I don't think it is fair to compare 1997 with 2011 - The 97 Indians were a very, very good team that should have won it all.

The White Sox are still in this and all that matters is getting into the post-season.

See 2006 St. Louis.

DSpivack
07-25-2011, 10:32 PM
Scarey stuff if they play well this week and then go back to their typical playing style.

That's probably what will happen. Sox will win 2 of 3 against Detroit, 2 of against Twins, no changes will be made, then return to their mediocre ways after the deadline, finishing 82-80.

Brian26
07-25-2011, 10:33 PM
I don't think it is fair to compare 1997 with 2011 - The 97 Indians were a very, very good team that should have won it all.

The White Sox are still in this and all that matters is getting into the post-season.

See 2006 St. Louis.

Or 2007 Rockies, 2005 Astros, 2003 Marlins, 2002 Angels (Wild Card), ...

I agree. Comparing the 2011 Tigers to the 1997 Indians is like comparing filet mignon to spam.

Daver
07-25-2011, 10:35 PM
Why's that? I think he's definitely the type of pitcher Coop can work with. If anything could be the Sox 5th starter soon.

His mechanics are not good, and a would be starter that struggles to get outs as a reliever is not what anyone is looking for. Given two years with Kirk he might be a starter, but it's too late for that now.

Noneck
07-25-2011, 10:36 PM
That's probably what will happen. Sox will win 2 of 3 against Detroit, 2 of against Twins, no changes will be made, then return to their mediocre ways after the deadline, finishing 82-80.


Ive never felt for management but they are caught between a rock and a hard place if the Sox dont tank this week.

VMSNS
07-25-2011, 10:36 PM
That's probably what will happen. Sox will win 2 of 3 against Detroit, 2 of against Twins, no changes will be made, then return to their mediocre ways after the deadline, finishing 82-80.

That's probably what will happen. However, Kenny should be smart enough by at this point to realize the true nature of this team - a group of incredibly inconsistent, fundamentally challenged, mental midgets.

Sell, Kenny. Sell, sell, sell.

Noneck
07-25-2011, 10:39 PM
That's probably what will happen. However, Kenny should be smart enough by at this point to realize the true nature of this team - a group of incredibly inconsistent, fundamentally challenged, mental midgets.

Sell, Kenny. Sell, sell, sell.

They cant , you think the uprising about the notorious white flag year was bad, this will be worse.

Woofer
07-25-2011, 10:40 PM
I never want to go through another White Flag trade in my lifetime. Those were terrible and depressing times. Now is the time the Sox should be trying to build fan base, not destroy it. I hope the team can go on a run.

Gavin
07-25-2011, 10:40 PM
Yeah, good luck unloading Peavy/Rios/Dunn. Once again, MLB will call his bluff.

CHISOXFAN13
07-25-2011, 10:42 PM
Or 2007 Rockies, 2005 Astros, 2003 Marlins, 2002 Angels (Wild Card), ...

I agree. Comparing the 2011 Tigers to the 1997 Indians is like comparing filet mignon to spam.

That Indians team wasn't the dominant force they were for the rest of the decade. Hell, I'd guess the Tigers can win 86 games like that Indians team did.

Not exactly the Atlanta Braves starting staff they had that season. A bunch of ****ty pitchers saved by a great offense.

balke
07-25-2011, 10:43 PM
His mechanics are not good, and a would be starter that struggles to get outs as a reliever is not what anyone is looking for. Given two years with Kirk he might be a starter, but it's too late for that now.

I don't know anything about mechanics. I just feel like he got a bad start to the season. Last season he looked great - and the past 2 months his ERA is under 2.00. Last night he looked like Randy Johnson. Seems like he can at least last as a reliever for the Sox.

sullythered
07-25-2011, 10:43 PM
Sale doesn't have much trade value anyway, but if there is any interest I would hope it was listened to.

That is just not even close to correct.

A 22 year old lefty with 2 plus plus pitches who throws 96 and has an ERA of 2.86 an 10 and a half K's per 9 in 66 major league innings? Yeah, I'm sure nobody has any interest in that.

Brian26
07-25-2011, 10:45 PM
That Indians team wasn't the dominant force they were for the rest of the decade. Hell, I'd guess the Tigers can win 86 games like that Indians team did.

The '97 Indians came within an eyelash of winning the World Series.

BleacherBandit
07-25-2011, 10:47 PM
I think you can make some intelligent moves that set up the Sox for the future and yet don't screw them over for the rest of the season.

We can afford to trade Jackson for some young talent. However, you obviously can't get rid of Konerko/Buehrle/A.J. or even Beckham (his defense is really non-replaceable) if there's any intention to win this season.

balke
07-25-2011, 10:49 PM
What do you do if the Sox take the division lead in 6 days - but the Tigers trade for one of Jimenez/Guthrie/Harang/Kuroda?

Still all-in?

DirtySox
07-25-2011, 10:50 PM
What do you do if the Sox take the division lead in 6 days - but the Tigers trade for one of Jimenez/Guthrie/Harang/Kuroda?

Still all-in?

I think Edwin will be moved no matter what. Any other moves will be determined by how they fare over this current stretch.

balke
07-25-2011, 10:57 PM
The media here at Fenway is curious why KW decided to give WMVP the story and not the Sox own outlets of WSCR or CSN.



The same reason he came out in the media about how McCarthy was untouchable. Kenny is smart - get this story out there about what the Sox have and how they are talking to Boston. NY is sure to put a little more in the pot to make sure it doesn't happen.


And obviously - more people will hear this if the story is made there and not here.

peelwonder
07-25-2011, 11:03 PM
+1

that is just not even close to correct.

A 22 year old lefty with 2 plus plus pitches who throws 96 and has an era of 2.86 an 10 and a half k's per 9 in 66 major league innings? Yeah, i'm sure nobody has any interest in that.

KMcMahon817
07-25-2011, 11:04 PM
Sale doesn't have much trade value anyway, but if there is any interest I would hope it was listened to.

Haha...I hope you're kidding. hahahahahaha...he probably has close to as much trade value as anyone on the SOX.

RowanDye
07-25-2011, 11:37 PM
His mechanics are not good, and a would be starter that struggles to get outs as a reliever is not what anyone is looking for. Given two years with Kirk he might be a starter, but it's too late for that now.


Are you just stirring the drink here Daver? He's 22 yrs. old for christ's sake!

Slats
07-25-2011, 11:46 PM
Rios and Dunn have been killing us all year.

Find a solution for those 2 and we have a contending team.:gulp::gulp::gulp:

BleacherBandit
07-25-2011, 11:47 PM
Haha...I hope you're kidding. hahahahahaha...he probably has close to as much trade value as anyone on the SOX.

You could admit that and make the same assessment regarding Sale.

Tragg
07-25-2011, 11:48 PM
His mechanics are not good, and a would be starter that struggles to get outs as a reliever is not what anyone is looking for. Given two years with Kirk he might be a starter, but it's too late for that now.

If his mechanics are bad, why did we use a high 1RD pick for him?

As it is, he's pitched pretty well as far as getting players out.

RowanDye
07-26-2011, 12:06 AM
His mechanics are not good, and a would be starter that struggles to get outs as a reliever is not what anyone is looking for. Given two years with Kirk he might be a starter, but it's too late for that now.

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110114&content_id=16441600&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

“I know the delivery and what to look for, and with the way we do things with the White Sox, we’ve been doing it well here for a long time. I work hard to get this information. I see nothing with Sale that throws up a red flag.”

Was Cooper just pandering there Daver? Or maybe something changed this year about his delivery that you're worried about? :scratch:

PeteWard
07-26-2011, 01:10 AM
I really hope Matt or Edwin, if they have to go, end up in the NL. I don't want Kenny helping NY, Bos or Tex.

raul12
07-26-2011, 01:14 AM
4 pages and no...

:reinsy
Sell, I mean cell?

I must be getting old!

MeteorsSox4367
07-26-2011, 01:28 AM
Would anyone not be on the trade block? Ignoring the "don't want to sell too low" question for a moment, the only guys I'd really want to keep are:

Santos
Sale
Beckham (I still like his potential, I know others don't)
Alexei

Also, with Konerko, AJ and Buehrle with 10/5 rights, would make dealing them more difficult.

Any others?

Like your list and I think the only other name I would add to that list is Danks. Maybe it's wishful thinking, but there's something about lefthanded starting pitching.

The offer would have to be very attractive for me to consider trading Danks.

thomas35forever
07-26-2011, 01:31 AM
Since we're on a winning streak right now, I'm not on the "sell" side. That'll probably change before the deadline though.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-26-2011, 01:36 AM
Since we're on a winning streak right now, I'm not on the "sell" side. That'll probably change before the deadline though.

If the Sox sweep the Kitties, I think they become buyers.

Anything less, I think they blow it up.

PeteWard
07-26-2011, 03:04 AM
If the Sox sweep the Kitties, I think they become buyers.

Anything less, I think they blow it up.

So you are saying one game decides this? :o: What if they win the Boston series ?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-26-2011, 03:32 AM
So you are saying one game decides this? :o: What if they win the Boston series ?

They're running out of time. Eventually, a decision needs to be made. They can't push it back to the last day, because then who knows what the market is like.

This team needs to pick a direction, and I'd say that this series is the biggest tone-setter as to how the rest of the season may play out. If they go 1-1 the rest of the series, then maybe they can put a stay on deciding (a day or two at the max), but if they lose the series, then they need to sell and get what they can.

cards press box
07-26-2011, 07:08 AM
I hated it then and like it now. The main reason? I was 19 then and 33 now - older and wiser...

I don't think it is fair to compare 1997 with 2011 - The 97 Indians were a very, very good team that should have won it all.

The White Sox are still in this and all that matters is getting into the post-season.

See 2006 St. Louis.

The '97 Indians came within an eyelash of winning the World Series.

Fenway, I agree. The 1997 Sox did not have the starting, bullpen or defense of the 2011 squad. And no team in the AL Central this year is as good as the '97 Indians. That squad might not have been the best Cleveland team of the '90's but it was still a real strong team, one that was much better than this year's Indians or Tigers.

Win win win...:cool:

And if the Sox keep getting good starting pitching, relief pitching and defense, they should keep winning and stay in this race all the way to the end of the season.

I think Edwin will be moved no matter what. Any other moves will be determined by how they fare over this current stretch.

I also think that Edwin will be moved. How much the Sox get in return really depends upon the evolving market for starting pitching. If Edwin is not the best starter available, he is in the team photo. That should get the Sox some value.

If, for example, the Cards deal Colby Rasmus for Edwin and a prospect, that would mean that the Sox flipped Daniel Hudson and prospect or two for one year of Jackson + Rasmus. I don't know if that is a totally equal deal but it would be better than six years of Hudson for 1.5 years of Jackson + a high draft pick.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2011, 09:50 AM
Joe takes issue with some of what Kenny said yesterday from a "reality" standpoint:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/6704079-419/ken-williams-message-white-sox-either-get-it-together-or-trade-possible.html

Lip

balke
07-26-2011, 10:03 AM
Joe takes issue with some of what Kenny said yesterday from a "reality" standpoint:

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/6704079-419/ken-williams-message-white-sox-either-get-it-together-or-trade-possible.html

Lip

I get Joe's point - but I think Jake and Dunn are guys who will work to get back to where they need to be next year. I think Jake right now is slowly building up his strength - and I'm sure Dunn will be swinging the bat heavily this offseason to save himself this from happening again.

Sure the team won't be dirt cheap - but I don't think they'll be all that bad either.

Fenway
07-26-2011, 10:16 AM
The same reason he came out in the media about how McCarthy was untouchable. Kenny is smart - get this story out there about what the Sox have and how they are talking to Boston. NY is sure to put a little more in the pot to make sure it doesn't happen.


And obviously - more people will hear this if the story is made there and not here.

We were in a long rain delay when the story broke at 8 PM Eastern...

All we know for sure is White Sox scouts are following Pawtucket, Portland and Greenville so something is cooking...

KW says 'he has deals in place' but the reality is no GM is going to wait for him to make up his mind. Win one more against Detroit and I think KW will not sell. The Boston series is just bad timing on Chicago's part..the Red Sox want payback for the sweep at Fenway so it is more than just another series with them.

Epstein seldom talks in the media so really nobody knows what his mindset is. Boston needs a starter as it looks like Buchholtz is done for the year.

kaufsox
07-26-2011, 10:37 AM
I'm more in the camp that the Sox could make some moves,and still be in contention within this lousy division. Cleveland is sticking around with a bunch of Triple A players so I don't see why a trade or two would put the Sox THAT far off the pace. I just seriously doubt KW in this situation. He seems to take on reclamation projects, bitter enders and Alomars at the trade deadline and serving up the farm system in the process. I haven't looked too closely, but who is the most washed up hitter out there right now? Oh, and the folks who want Dunn/Rios/Peavy moved, good luck with that.

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 10:39 AM
IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young, he could easily blow it up for "prospects"...

Konerko to LAA or AZ (the only 2 teams he'd play for)

Dunn to SF, TX, PIT, AZ

Jackson to NYY, STL, TX, MKE

Thornton to TX, STL, NYY, PHI

Buehrle to STL

Quentin to ATL, PHI, SF, TX, BOS, MKE, PIT

Pierzynski BOS, PIT, WAS? TB? (It's too bad that AJ had such a falling out in SF as that would be THE perfect spot for him this trade deadline)

Vizquel to SF, MKE, PIT

Rios: Outright release or eat salary and dump to whomever wants him

Peavy: Outright release or eat salary and dump to whomever wants him

guillensdisciple
07-26-2011, 10:41 AM
Not for or against but the Sox could get a sizeable haul on some of these guys.

DSpivack
07-26-2011, 10:42 AM
IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young, he could easily blow it up for "prospects"...

Konerko to LAA or AZ (the only 2 teams he'd play for)

Dunn to SF, TX, PIT, AZ

Jackson to NYY, STL, TX, MKE

Thornton to TX, STL, NYY, PHI

Buehrle to STL

Quentin to ATL, PHI, SF, TX, BOS, MKE, PIT

Pierzynski BOS, PIT, WAS? TB? (It's too bad that AJ had such a falling out in SF as that would be THE perfect spot for him this trade deadline)

Vizquel to SF, MKE, PIT

Rios: Outright release or eat salary and dump to whomever wants him

Peavy: Outright release or eat salary and dump to whomever wants him

Dunn, Rios & Peavy are going nowhere. They have less than zero trade value.

And the Sox aren't releasing Rios & Peavy. That's about $60 million in remaining salary.

As for Buehrle, I don't see St. Louis wanting to pay him $15 million next season when they have Pujols to re-sign.

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 10:46 AM
Dunn, Rios & Peavy are going nowhere. They have less than zero trade value.

And the Sox aren't releasing Rios & Peavy. That's about $60 million in remaining salary.

As for Buehrle, I don't see St. Louis wanting to pay him $15 million next season when they have Pujols to re-sign.

I guess you didn't see where I wrote, "IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young"

As for Dunn, you may not realize this, but he still has trade value as this is the ONLY blip in his career, and the way his head works, he may very well just need to get the hell out of Chicago to get his head straight and have a fresh start to salvaging his season. On top of that, both TX and SF were looking at Dunn this past offseason

guillensdisciple
07-26-2011, 10:54 AM
I guess you didn't see where I wrote, "IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young"

As for Dunn, you may not realize this, but he still has trade value as this is the ONLY blip in his career, and the way his head works, he may very well just need to get the hell out of Chicago to get his head straight and have a fresh start to salvaging his season. On top of that, both TX and SF were looking at Dunn this past offseason


While this is true, the White Sox would get a horrible return for him and that would be a huge loss.

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 10:54 AM
As for Buehrle, I don't see St. Louis wanting to pay him $15 million next season when they have Pujols to re-sign.

Here is an interesting article on Buehrle (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=jp-passan_trade_buzz_adams_buehrle_pettitte_072011) with this quote, "Part of Buehrle’s agreeing to waive his no-trade privileges could be turning the deal next season into a player option with a buyout, which would allow him to use the remainder of the year as a trial period."

doublem23
07-26-2011, 10:56 AM
I guess you didn't see where I wrote, "IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young"

As for Dunn, you may not realize this, but he still has trade value as this is the ONLY blip in his career, and the way his head works, he may very well just need to get the hell out of Chicago to get his head straight and have a fresh start to salvaging his season. On top of that, both TX and SF were looking at Dunn this past offseason

Really, what are you basing this on? This is simply your opinion, but I have to agree with DSpivack and say that a 31-year-old who can't play any positions defensively who has completely fallen apart for an entire season and is still owed something like $40 M over the next few seasons has no trade value.

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 10:56 AM
While this is true, the White Sox would get a horrible return for him and that would be a huge loss.

I agree, but if he really wanted to clean house and change the clubhouse element he would, and then release the coaching staff at the end of the season.

However, I feel that KW is bluffing

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 10:58 AM
Really, what are you basing this on? This is simply your opinion, but I have to agree with DSpivack and say that a 31-year-old who can't play any positions defensively who has completely fallen apart for an entire season and is still owed something like $40 M over the next few seasons has no trade value.

Similar things were said about Vernon Wells, or in the case of last year Manny Ramirez

slavko
07-26-2011, 11:06 AM
Epstein seldom talks in the media so really nobody knows what his mindset is. Boston needs a starter as it looks like Buchholtz is done for the year.

And then there are GM's who talk too much and say the wrong things when they do. Some owners too.


However, I feel that KW is bluffing

There's a man who knows Kenny. Using the media to threaten his players. A master of psychology he's not.

DSpivack
07-26-2011, 11:07 AM
I guess you didn't see where I wrote, "IF Kenny is serious about turning it all over and going young"

As for Dunn, you may not realize this, but he still has trade value as this is the ONLY blip in his career, and the way his head works, he may very well just need to get the hell out of Chicago to get his head straight and have a fresh start to salvaging his season. On top of that, both TX and SF were looking at Dunn this past offseason

I did see that, and even if the plan was to 'go young', no way would Reinsdorf eat $60 million.

And as Doub said, Dunn has zero trade value. You cite Vernon Wells and Manny, but Dunn and Rios are performing much worse than either of them did before being traded, and while Wells' contract is worse, Manny's was not. That teams were looking at Dunn in the offseason does not mean they would be interested in him now, that's what happens when you have 3 years and $44 million remaining on your contract and you have a .585 OPS.

AzureJazzMan
07-26-2011, 11:08 AM
And then there are GM's who talk too much and say the wrong things when they do. Some owners too.



There's a man who knows Kenny. Using the media to threaten his players. A master of psychology he's not.

What's sad, is that if WE know he's bluffing, the players most certainly do.

Tragg
07-26-2011, 11:12 AM
The Boston series is just bad timing on Chicago's part..the Red Sox want payback for the sweep at Fenway so it is more than just another series with them.

Epstein seldom talks in the media so really nobody knows what his mindset is. Boston needs a starter as it looks like Buchholtz is done for the year.
Seriously, it's hard to believe a team with grand goals like boston is so micro minded that they are overly concerned about payback for a single series loss.

I would think any deal between the Sox' would be timed purposely for AFTER the series.

DSpivack
07-26-2011, 11:13 AM
What's sad, is that if WE know he's bluffing, the players most certainly do.

You know that?

slavko
07-26-2011, 11:15 AM
What's sad, is that if WE know he's bluffing, the players most certainly do.

For sure, The Three Untradeables know it.

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 11:28 AM
I would think any deal between the Sox' would be timed purposely for AFTER the series.It can't happen, the deadline is Sunday. If the two teams were to make a trade, it wouldn't be the first time that a player showed up the in the opposite dugout in a different uniform the next day.

Hitmen77
07-26-2011, 12:37 PM
http://espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/story/_/id/6801390/chicago-white-sox-general-manager-ken-williams-considers-youth-movement-team?campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

Oh boy...

This mess is Kenny's creation. Lots of money committed to players who are just awful for us. His good transactions vs. bad transactions over the last 3 years is simply awful.

What good will "blowing up the team" do if it's still Kenny, Ozzie, Walker, etc. in charge of this team?

By the way, when was it that the Sox had a "shake up" of their farm system (when they hired Buddy Bell)? 2008? Yet, our farm system is still mostly devoid of talent.

For those of you who *want* them to blow up this team, be careful what you with for. This isn't going to be about blowing up the team in order to stock this franchise with a ton of young talent. This will be about blowing up this team to slash payroll where possible because the Sox ownership won't continue to commit to a $120M payroll when attendance continues to decline as a result of the crapfest this team puts on the field.

By the way, slashing payroll means getting rid of GOOD players. The Sox are stuck with the money they have sunk into Dunn, Rios, Peavy, and Teahen. These guys are untradeable unless the Sox eat a lot of their salary.

Hitmen77
07-26-2011, 01:08 PM
I don't think it is fair to compare 1997 with 2011 - The 97 Indians were a very, very good team that should have won it all.

The White Sox are still in this and all that matters is getting into the post-season.

See 2006 St. Louis.

Or 2007 Rockies, 2005 Astros, 2003 Marlins, 2002 Angels (Wild Card), ...

I agree. Comparing the 2011 Tigers to the 1997 Indians is like comparing filet mignon to spam.

Agreed.

I'm not in favor of blowing up this team, but 2011 is not very comparable to 1997. Two very different Sox teams and two very different levels of competition from the AL Central leaders.

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 01:24 PM
This mess is Kenny's creation. Lots of money committed to players who are just awful for us. His good transactions vs. bad transactions over the last 3 years is simply awful.
Yes, this "mess" of a very talented team which is underperforming is Kenny's creation. The Sox may be paying too much money for some of these players, but they are good players. Dunn is a good player. As horribly as he has performed this year, it's ridiculous how people (most of who were celebrating when he signed) are throwing this back at Kenny, as if they knew Dunn would struggle so mightily and it is already determined that Dunn will continue hitting .170 for the next three years. Bull. He will rebound and there is nothing statistically which points to him hitting a wall last year. The Dunn signing was the right move and it filled a huge void on the team. It sucks that he has been horrible this year, but it was still the right move. $14 mil a year for the production Dunn has provided isn't out of this world (considering the team payroll).

The longer Peavy is here, the more people revise history. He now is to the point where he had Baines' knees, Crede's back and Sirotka's arm when the Sox traded for him. No. He broke his ****ing ankle running the bases. Other than that, he was healthy and performing well. He had a catastrophic injury last year and is still recovering. So people can stomp their feet about him being horrible and not being able to stay healthy, but having a broken ankle doesn't make your lat detach. It was a freak injury, not caused by a previous inury and not caused by some delivery flaw the Sox should have noticed. Peavy's struggles this year are directly because he is stilll recoving and building strength in his arm (he claims to be about 70% currently). There is no reason to believe that he will not be back very close to his old form next year. He makes lots and lots of money, yes. However, he is a good player when he isn't recoving from shoulder surgery.

Rios was a huge gamble and obviously hasn't paid off to this point. As bad as the situation with Rios looks, people drastically overstate how horrible his contract is. He is making $12 mil a year. It sucks, but isn't a crippling albatross for a team with a payroll of $125 mil. Rios is obviously ****ed up in the head at this point, and his normally excellent defense has suffered because of it, but there is no reason at all to believe that he has completely hit a wall and will hit around .200 for the next three years. Even if he only rebounds to hit .247 (his previous career low), with his defense back to form, his contract would move into the merely "bad" category. Does it suck having him be horrible for $12 mil? Yes. Could the Sox better spend that $12 mil this year? Certainly. Is his contract in Mike Hampton territory? Not even close.

By far the most ridiculous argument people make on this board is that Teahen is a historically bad contract. He is making $5 mil this year and next! Has he been bad? Very. He was a gamble that didn't pay off. However, we gave up no legit talent for him and signed him for 3 years/$14 mil. As much as the team would be better off without that burden, him taking him 4% of the team's payroll isn't keeping the Sox from competing.

The Sox also have Beckham, a very talented player who has struggled in large part because he wasn't give competant coaching, and therefore hasn't found a swing. His average is up to .250 now, but he has fallen into the Walkerian mode of horrible slumps followed by manic hot streaks. We also have Morel, who has provided excellent defense despite his offensive struggles. He is a rookie, and all teams need young, cost controlled players. He should improve.

Aside from those playrs who are underperforming for various reasons, the Sox have five excellent starters, a lights-out back of the bullpen, a solid reliever with ace potential in Sale, Konerko and his MVP season, Ramirez who is one of the best SS in the AL, Quentin, AJ, and Pierre who has shown he is still a legit leadoff hitter when he isn't in a horrible slump. This team is pretty stacked. I find it hard to point a finger at a GM for players underperforming. His job is to assemble the team. A large portion of the team underperfoming sucks, and if the team fails, it has to ultimately fall on the GM's shoulders. However, don't act as if Kenny made blatantly dumb moves and the team has 15 holes. If the team fails to make the playoffs, KW should be tossed aside for not firing Ozzie and Walker (who have at best facilitated the underachieving), not for putting together a very talented team which underachieved.

downstairs
07-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Sheesh, we're 3.5 back in July with many of our players nowhere near where they should be- and you would expect some of them to get back into their regular form soon.

KMcMahon817
07-26-2011, 01:42 PM
Yes, this "mess" of a very talented team which is underperforming is Kenny's creation. The Sox may be paying too much money for some of these players, but they are good players. Dunn is a good player. As horribly as he has performed this year, it's ridiculous how people (most of who were celebrating when he signed) are throwing this back at Kenny, as if they knew Dunn would struggle so mightily and it is already determined that Dunn will continue hitting .170 for the next three years. Bull. He will rebound and there is nothing statistically which points to him hitting a wall last year. The Dunn signing was the right move and it filled a huge void on the team. It sucks that he has been horrible this year, but it was still the right move. $14 mil a year for the production Dunn has provided isn't out of this world (considering the team payroll).

The longer Peavy is here, the more people revise history. He now is to the point where he had Baines' knees, Crede's back and Sirotka's arm when the Sox traded for him. No. He broke his ****ing ankle running the bases. Other than that, he was healthy and performing well. He had a catastrophic injury last year and is still recovering. So people can stomp their feet about him being horrible and not being able to stay healthy, but having a broken ankle doesn't make your lat detach. It was a freak injury, not caused by a previous inury and not caused by some delivery flaw the Sox should have noticed. Peavy's struggles this year are directly because he is stilll recoving and building strength in his arm (he claims to be about 70% currently). There is no reason to believe that he will not be back very close to his old form next year. He makes lots and lots of money, yes. However, he is a good player when he isn't recoving from shoulder surgery.

Rios was a huge gamble and obviously hasn't paid off to this point. As bad as the situation with Rios looks, people drastically overstate how horrible his contract is. He is making $12 mil a year. It sucks, but isn't a crippling albatross for a team with a payroll of $125 mil. Rios is obviously ****ed up in the head at this point, and his normally excellent defense has suffered because of it, but there is no reason at all to believe that he has completely hit a wall and will hit around .200 for the next three years. Even if he only rebounds to hit .247 (his previous career low), with his defense back to form, his contract would move into the merely "bad" category. Does it suck having him be horrible for $12 mil? Yes. Could the Sox better spend that $12 mil this year? Certainly. Is his contract in Mike Hampton territory? Not even close.

By far the most ridiculous argument people make on this board is that Teahen is a historically bad contract. He is making $5 mil this year and next! Has he been bad? Very. He was a gamble that didn't pay off. However, we gave up no legit talent for him and signed him for 3 years/$14 mil. As much as the team would be better off without that burden, him taking him 4% of the team's payroll isn't keeping the Sox from competing.

The Sox also have Beckham, a very talented player who has struggled in large part because he wasn't give competant coaching, and therefore hasn't found a swing. His average is up to .250 now, but he has fallen into the Walkerian mode of horrible slumps followed by manic hot streaks. We also have Morel, who has provided excellent defense despite his offensive struggles. He is a rookie, and all teams need young, cost controlled players. He should improve.

Aside from those playrs who are underperforming for various reasons, the Sox have five excellent starters, a lights-out back of the bullpen, a solid reliever with ace potential in Sale, Konerko and his MVP season, Ramirez who is one of the best SS in the AL, Quentin, AJ, and Pierre who has shown he is still a legit leadoff hitter when he isn't in a horrible slump. This team is pretty stacked. I find it hard to point a finger at a GM for players underperforming. His job is to assemble the team. A large portion of the team underperfoming sucks, and if the team fails, it has to ultimately fall on the GM's shoulders. However, don't act as if Kenny made blatantly dumb moves and the team has 15 holes. If the team fails to make the playoffs, KW should be tossed aside for not firing Ozzie and Walker (who have at best facilitated the underachieving), not for putting together a very talented team which underachieved.

Very, very, very well said. +1,000,000.

The amount of crap Teahen and Pierre get for their contract here is borderline hailarious. Teahen's extention was dumb, but the dude doesn't even make that much. Neither contract is by any means hampering the ball club.

Hitmen77
07-26-2011, 01:58 PM
Yes, this "mess" of a very talented team which is underperforming is Kenny's creation. The Sox may be paying too much money for some of these players, but they are good players. Dunn is a good player. As horribly as he has performed this year, it's ridiculous how people (most of who were celebrating when he signed) are throwing this back at Kenny, as if they knew Dunn would struggle so mightily and it is already determined that Dunn will continue hitting .170 for the next three years. Bull. He will rebound and there is nothing statistically which points to him hitting a wall last year. The Dunn signing was the right move and it filled a huge void on the team. It sucks that he has been horrible this year, but it was still the right move. $14 mil a year for the production Dunn has provided isn't out of this world (considering the team payroll).

The longer Peavy is here, the more people revise history. He now is to the point where he had Baines' knees, Crede's back and Sirotka's arm when the Sox traded for him. No. He broke his ****ing ankle running the bases. Other than that, he was healthy and performing well. He had a catastrophic injury last year and is still recovering. So people can stomp their feet about him being horrible and not being able to stay healthy, but having a broken ankle doesn't make your lat detach. It was a freak injury, not caused by a previous inury and not caused by some delivery flaw the Sox should have noticed. Peavy's struggles this year are directly because he is stilll recoving and building strength in his arm (he claims to be about 70% currently). There is no reason to believe that he will not be back very close to his old form next year. He makes lots and lots of money, yes. However, he is a good player when he isn't recoving from shoulder surgery.

Rios was a huge gamble and obviously hasn't paid off to this point. As bad as the situation with Rios looks, people drastically overstate how horrible his contract is. He is making $12 mil a year. It sucks, but isn't a crippling albatross for a team with a payroll of $125 mil. Rios is obviously ****ed up in the head at this point, and his normally excellent defense has suffered because of it, but there is no reason at all to believe that he has completely hit a wall and will hit around .200 for the next three years. Even if he only rebounds to hit .247 (his previous career low), with his defense back to form, his contract would move into the merely "bad" category. Does it suck having him be horrible for $12 mil? Yes. Could the Sox better spend that $12 mil this year? Certainly. Is his contract in Mike Hampton territory? Not even close.

By far the most ridiculous argument people make on this board is that Teahen is a historically bad contract. He is making $5 mil this year and next! Has he been bad? Very. He was a gamble that didn't pay off. However, we gave up no legit talent for him and signed him for 3 years/$14 mil. As much as the team would be better off without that burden, him taking him 4% of the team's payroll isn't keeping the Sox from competing.

The Sox also have Beckham, a very talented player who has struggled in large part because he wasn't give competant coaching, and therefore hasn't found a swing. His average is up to .250 now, but he has fallen into the Walkerian mode of horrible slumps followed by manic hot streaks. We also have Morel, who has provided excellent defense despite his offensive struggles. He is a rookie, and all teams need young, cost controlled players. He should improve.

Aside from those playrs who are underperforming for various reasons, the Sox have five excellent starters, a lights-out back of the bullpen, a solid reliever with ace potential in Sale, Konerko and his MVP season, Ramirez who is one of the best SS in the AL, Quentin, AJ, and Pierre who has shown he is still a legit leadoff hitter when he isn't in a horrible slump. This team is pretty stacked. I find it hard to point a finger at a GM for players underperforming. His job is to assemble the team. A large portion of the team underperfoming sucks, and if the team fails, it has to ultimately fall on the GM's shoulders. However, don't act as if Kenny made blatantly dumb moves and the team has 15 holes. If the team fails to make the playoffs, KW should be tossed aside for not firing Ozzie and Walker (who have at best facilitated the underachieving), not for putting together a very talented team which underachieved.

I should amend/clarify my statement to include Ozzie and the coaching staff in this mess too. I still think KW has made more bad moves than good ones in recent years, but no I didn't mean to suggest this is all on him.

....but as you suggest, someone in Sox management should be accountable for this. Like I said in my original post, what good is blowing up the team if KW, Ozzie, and Walker are all still here? You left that part of my post out of your quote, but I did mention more than just Williams.

The fact that this team is pretty stacked on paper is what makes this season so maddening.

captain54
07-26-2011, 02:07 PM
If the team fails to make the playoffs, KW should be tossed aside for not firing Ozzie and Walker (who have at best facilitated the underachieving), not for putting together a very talented team which underachieved.

The Sox have played four months of baseball. They have a .500 record.

They are what they are... mediocre. Their play against the rest of the league has dictated their talent level. If you want to buy into KW's mantra that this is a championship ballclub built for the long haul and the postseason, fine.

It's an average team... An average GM, an at times below average field manager, a better than average pitching coach, a below average hitting coach and players that collectively add up to exactly what they are...not bad, and not good.. mediocre

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 02:14 PM
The Sox have played four months of baseball. They have a .500 record.

They are what they are... mediocre. Their play against the rest of the league has dictated their talent level. If you want to buy into KW's mantra that this is a championship ballclub built for the long haul and the postseason, fine.

It's an average team... An average GM, an at times below average field manager, a better than average pitching coach, a below average hitting coach and players that collectively add up to exactly what they are...not bad, and not good.. mediocreNo. This team has a championship caliber pitching staff. They have a lot of talent on offense. Two huge pieces are underperforming, but really, the entire offense is underperfoming except for for Konerko and AJ. I think when a pitching staff is dragged down by an offense which is performing so much worse than it's capable of, I can't blame the GM for it. Yes, this team has proven to be mediocre because they STILL can't score runs. However, this is not an average team with average talent.

DSpivack
07-26-2011, 02:17 PM
No. This team has a championship caliber pitching staff. They have a lot of talent on offense. Two huge pieces are underperforming, but really, the entire offense is underperfoming except for for Konerko and AJ. I think when a pitching staff is dragged down by an offense which is performing so much worse than it's capable of, I can't blame the GM for it. Yes, this team has proven to be mediocre because they STILL can't score runs. However, this is not an average team with average talent.

I think that results matter, not what a team may look like on paper, or how much talent they supposedly have. It's July 26 and the White Sox sit at .500. That tells me they are most likely an average team, and I don't see any reason to think why they'll starting playing different in the final ~60 games from how they have played over the first ~100 games of the season.

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 02:23 PM
I should amend/clarify my statement to include Ozzie and the coaching staff in this mess too. I still think KW has made more bad moves than good ones in recent years, but no I didn't mean to suggest this is all on him.

....but as you suggest, someone in Sox management should be accountable for this. Like I said in my original post, what good is blowing up the team if KW, Ozzie, and Walker are all still here? You left that part of my post out of your quote, but I did mention more than just Williams.

The fact that this team is pretty stacked on paper is what makes this season so maddening.True, I saw where you mentioned Ozzie and Walker before. However, with you saying the mess was all on Kenny, I took it to mean, like so many other posters have said, that the team is horrible, anyone who thought the team would be good was a fool, and the contracts will keep the Sox from being a contender for the next five years. I disagree with those people. As I said, this team is more than talented enough to take this division. Walker should have been fired after and in the middle of each of the past five season. Ozzie should have been fired earlier this year. I you want to blame KW for spending too much money on certain players or being too loyal to coaches, that is fine. Just don't say KW put together a mediocre team, which I now see you weren't doing.

But as I said, I think the Sox should clean house of the team doesn't win the division this year. KW should be held responsible for keeping the coaches around through failures, and he certainly has to take the blame for the farm system. However, you could find worse guys to rebuild a team. Remember back to 2007, when the Sox were thought to be old and horrible, destined to not compete for another 5 years. Kenny rebuilt on the fly and got the team back to the playoffs the next season. Really, the Sox are just a few pieces away. Even if they move Jackson, Thornton and Quentin, they have guys ready to step in and replace their production. I wouldn't be too miffed if KW stuck around next year while Ozzie went to Florida and Walker was shot into orbit.

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 02:25 PM
I think that results matter, not what a team may look like on paper, or how much talent they supposedly have. It's July 26 and the White Sox sit at .500. That tells me they are most likely an average team, and I don't see any reason to think why they'll starting playing different in the final ~60 games from how they have played over the first ~100 games of the season.I think the struggles of the team can be blamed on the coaching staff, in Walker not being able to read a scouting report and Ozzie instilling an intense fear of the Twins. Results matter, and Kenny is ultimately responsible for this team missing the playoffs for the third year in a row if it goes down, but that doesn't mean the team isn't talented. And no, I haven't seen anything telling me the team will turn it around this year. But I do think they are a very talented team.

kittle42
07-26-2011, 02:27 PM
Sheesh, we're 3.5 back in July with many of our players nowhere near where they should be- and you would expect some of them to get back into their regular form soon.

We are over 100 games into the season. How long are we supposed to wait?!

Noneck
07-26-2011, 02:30 PM
KW should be held responsible for keeping the coaches around through failures, and he certainly has to take the blame for the farm system.

I think everyone should step back and wonder if Williams really had the authority to make changes, that includes personnel changes, farm system funding and drafting. I have my doubts that Williams has/had as much control as people think.

pudge
07-26-2011, 02:32 PM
I'd say, boot the coaching first. Secondly, can't we do a little of both? Get rid of an aging or overpriced vet or two for some young talent, and still have enough to finish out the season respectably, and maybe be in position to win next year? Or are we really looking at The Kids Can Play Part II?

central44
07-26-2011, 02:34 PM
I think that results matter, not what a team may look like on paper, or how much talent they supposedly have. It's July 26 and the White Sox sit at .500. That tells me they are most likely an average team, and I don't see any reason to think why they'll starting playing different in the final ~60 games from how they have played over the first ~100 games of the season.


Who knows? Maybe they are average. Or maybe they have a manager/hitting coach who haven't been able to bring the most out of the players. Personally, I find it hard to believe that so many good players can all be struggling so much on offense at the same time.

I'd hate to see the Sox blow up a team this talented though, simply because the manager/GM were too stubborn to give a new hitting coach a shot. I'd hope the team would at least try that before they blow up the entire roster that was expected to contend for a championship back in February.

And if that didnt work, then yeah--clearly they're totally average and well, they should blow it up.

guillensdisciple
07-26-2011, 02:36 PM
Some say 86 wins may take this division.

From this point on sox have to go 36-21 to hit that mark.

I feel secure with 92 but that would require a 42- 19 mark which would be asking something.

pudge
07-26-2011, 02:38 PM
Yes, this "mess" of a very talented team which is underperforming is Kenny's creation. The Sox may be paying too much money for some of these players, but they are good players. Dunn is a good player. As horribly as he has performed this year, it's ridiculous how people (most of who were celebrating when he signed) are throwing this back at Kenny, as if they knew Dunn would struggle so mightily and it is already determined that Dunn will continue hitting .170 for the next three years. Bull. He will rebound and there is nothing statistically which points to him hitting a wall last year.

Good post - I got burned by Dunn. His career stats are actually pretty awful. I got sucked into the hype of having a big slugger and the fact we had no DH last year. I cannot slam Kenny on this one, because I got pulled into it as well. But I think Dunn is an absolute waste to have on any MLB ball club. The way he fouls off hittable pitches and then winds up striking out - you could not pay me to put him in my lineup.

Teahen and Rios I hated from the get go. I'm pretty sure I had posts saying as much. Inconsistent, high K, low walk hitters. Ugh. Rios was fantastic last year, based on that alone I was excited to see what he could do this season. But I don't know - it seems the Sox have great instincts when it comes to pitching (Loaiza, Contreras, Garcia, Floyd, Danks, Humber) but not when it comes to hitting. Or maybe it's just all Walker's fault.

JB98
07-26-2011, 02:39 PM
I'd say, boot the coaching first. Secondly, can't we do a little of both? Get rid of an aging or overpriced vet or two for some young talent, and still have enough to finish out the season respectably, and maybe be in position to win next year? Or are we really looking at The Kids Can Play Part II?

I don't think they have enough movable parts for Kids Can Play Part II. Teams would covet some of the Sox pitchers, for sure, but the only position players KW could trade are those that are neither aging nor overpriced. A lot of teams would be interested in Quentin or Beckham, but I don't see a big market for Dunn, Rios, Pierre or AJP.

captain54
07-26-2011, 02:46 PM
. I have my doubts that Williams has/had as
much control as people think.

:KW

"Now wait a minute. I am completely in control of addressing the media
because I have perfect enunciation and look better on TV than JR does"

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 02:56 PM
But I think Dunn is an absolute waste to have on any MLB ball club.

I'm sure I can find you 30 major league GMs that would love to have a guy with his track record in their lineup.

SI1020
07-26-2011, 03:05 PM
I'm sure I can find you 30 major league GMs that would love to have a guy with his track record in their lineup. I'm just as guilty as anyone I suppose. I didn't do cartwheels over the Dunn signing but certainly didn't oppose it. You're never too old to learn. Dunn is at best a one dimensional hold over from the steroid era and no I'm not accusing him of using PEDs. The game has moved on at least for the time being. Now I just wish Adam Dunn would.

captain54
07-26-2011, 03:06 PM
I'm sure I can find you 30 major league GMs that would love to have a guy with his track record in their lineup.

He was available to all 30 clubs last year. Why were the Sox the only ones to sign him?

Tragg
07-26-2011, 03:11 PM
It can't happen, the deadline is Sunday. If the two teams were to make a trade, it wouldn't be the first time that a player showed up the in the opposite dugout in a different uniform the next day.
ok- it's the 30th not the 31st. I guess we could face e Jack on Sunday then.

kittle42
07-26-2011, 03:12 PM
He was available to all 30 clubs last year. Why were the Sox the only ones to sign him?

Because one can't get signed by more than one club?

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 03:15 PM
Because one can't get signed by more than one club?

:rolling:

captain54
07-26-2011, 03:17 PM
Because one can't get signed by more than one club?

Thanks for the totally moronic response. You know what I meant

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 03:18 PM
Yes, this "mess" of a very talented team which is underperforming is Kenny's creation. The Sox may be paying too much money for some of these players, but they are good players. Dunn is a good player. As horribly as he has performed this year, it's ridiculous how people (most of who were celebrating when he signed) are throwing this back at Kenny, as if they knew Dunn would struggle so mightily and it is already determined that Dunn will continue hitting .170 for the next three years. Bull. He will rebound and there is nothing statistically which points to him hitting a wall last year. The Dunn signing was the right move and it filled a huge void on the team. It sucks that he has been horrible this year, but it was still the right move. $14 mil a year for the production Dunn has provided isn't out of this world (considering the team payroll).

The longer Peavy is here, the more people revise history. He now is to the point where he had Baines' knees, Crede's back and Sirotka's arm when the Sox traded for him. No. He broke his ****ing ankle running the bases. Other than that, he was healthy and performing well. He had a catastrophic injury last year and is still recovering. So people can stomp their feet about him being horrible and not being able to stay healthy, but having a broken ankle doesn't make your lat detach. It was a freak injury, not caused by a previous inury and not caused by some delivery flaw the Sox should have noticed. Peavy's struggles this year are directly because he is stilll recoving and building strength in his arm (he claims to be about 70% currently). There is no reason to believe that he will not be back very close to his old form next year. He makes lots and lots of money, yes. However, he is a good player when he isn't recoving from shoulder surgery.

Rios was a huge gamble and obviously hasn't paid off to this point. As bad as the situation with Rios looks, people drastically overstate how horrible his contract is. He is making $12 mil a year. It sucks, but isn't a crippling albatross for a team with a payroll of $125 mil. Rios is obviously ****ed up in the head at this point, and his normally excellent defense has suffered because of it, but there is no reason at all to believe that he has completely hit a wall and will hit around .200 for the next three years. Even if he only rebounds to hit .247 (his previous career low), with his defense back to form, his contract would move into the merely "bad" category. Does it suck having him be horrible for $12 mil? Yes. Could the Sox better spend that $12 mil this year? Certainly. Is his contract in Mike Hampton territory? Not even close.

By far the most ridiculous argument people make on this board is that Teahen is a historically bad contract. He is making $5 mil this year and next! Has he been bad? Very. He was a gamble that didn't pay off. However, we gave up no legit talent for him and signed him for 3 years/$14 mil. As much as the team would be better off without that burden, him taking him 4% of the team's payroll isn't keeping the Sox from competing.

The Sox also have Beckham, a very talented player who has struggled in large part because he wasn't give competant coaching, and therefore hasn't found a swing. His average is up to .250 now, but he has fallen into the Walkerian mode of horrible slumps followed by manic hot streaks. We also have Morel, who has provided excellent defense despite his offensive struggles. He is a rookie, and all teams need young, cost controlled players. He should improve.

Aside from those playrs who are underperforming for various reasons, the Sox have five excellent starters, a lights-out back of the bullpen, a solid reliever with ace potential in Sale, Konerko and his MVP season, Ramirez who is one of the best SS in the AL, Quentin, AJ, and Pierre who has shown he is still a legit leadoff hitter when he isn't in a horrible slump. This team is pretty stacked. I find it hard to point a finger at a GM for players underperforming. His job is to assemble the team. A large portion of the team underperfoming sucks, and if the team fails, it has to ultimately fall on the GM's shoulders. However, don't act as if Kenny made blatantly dumb moves and the team has 15 holes. If the team fails to make the playoffs, KW should be tossed aside for not firing Ozzie and Walker (who have at best facilitated the underachieving), not for putting together a very talented team which underachieved.

A good post, but you're going too easy on KW. His biggest mistake has been not taking one of the many opportunities there have been to say goodbye to Ozzie and Walker, and fix the culture in the clubhouse. And that's a huge mistake, compounded every year -- he should be fired for that alone, unless he tried to fire Ozzie and JR overruled him.

I still think the Peavy and Rios moves were good ones, even if they haven't panned out. And the Teahen trade was OK, but the extension was unnecessary and foolish.

Dunn? Kenny deserves a ton of blame for that. The "huge void" at DH is one that Kenny himself created, and there was a cheap in-house solution in Viciedo. Why you would give up all your budget flexibility to sign a DH? Why would you block your best hitting prospect and force you to think about trading Quentin?

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 03:22 PM
Thanks for the totally moronic response. You know what I meant

Well, it's a silly question. We don't know how many other teams were actively involved, nor do we know exactly why Dunn chose the White Sox; money, city, competitiveness of the team - these are all factors that Dunn could have taken into consideration. I'm confident that other teams were trying to make a move for him as well.

I'm sure every team would love to have Albert Pujols, but just because he signs with the Cardinals, Yankees, Cubs or whomever doesn't mean there weren't other teams working behind the scenes to try to make a deal.

kittle42
07-26-2011, 03:25 PM
Thanks for the totally moronic response. You know what I meant

Well, it's a silly question. We don't know how many other teams were actively involved, nor do we know exactly why Dunn chose the White Sox; money, city, competitiveness of the team - these are all factors that Dunn could have taken into consideration. I'm confident that other teams were trying to make a move for him as well.

I'm sure every team would love to have Albert Pujols, but just because he signs with the Cardinals, Yankees, Cubs or whomever doesn't mean there weren't other teams working behind the scenes to try to make a deal.

captain - hope skot's response was a little less moronic.

Dunn signed with the Sox because of some combination of factors including money/chances he felt team was good/city, etc. It would be ludicrous to think the Sox were the only team interested in his services.

delben91
07-26-2011, 03:31 PM
Well, it's a silly question. We don't know how many other teams were actively involved, nor do we know exactly why Dunn chose the White Sox; money, city, competitiveness of the team - these are all factors that Dunn could have taken into consideration. I'm confident that other teams were trying to make a move for him as well.

I'm sure every team would love to have Albert Pujols, but just because he signs with the Cardinals, Yankees, Cubs or whomever doesn't mean there weren't other teams working behind the scenes to try to make a deal.

captain - hope skot's response was a little less moronic.

Dunn signed with the Sox because of some combination of factors including money/chances he felt team was good/city, etc. It would be ludicrous to think the Sox were the only team interested in his services.

But, but...everyone, I mean EVERYONE knew Dunn would suck this year, and suck at historic levels, so clearly KW is an IDIOT of the first order.

If this requires teal, I quit.

TheOldRoman
07-26-2011, 03:33 PM
A good post, but you're going too easy on KW. His biggest mistake has been not taking one of the many opportunities there have been to say goodbye to Ozzie and Walker, and fix the culture in the clubhouse. And that's a huge mistake, compounded every year -- he should be fired for that alone, unless he tried to fire Ozzie and JR overruled him.

I still think the Peavy and Rios moves were good ones, even if they haven't panned out. And the Teahen trade was OK, but the extension was unnecessary and foolish.

Dunn? Kenny deserves a ton of blame for that. The "huge void" at DH is one that Kenny himself created, and there was a cheap in-house solution in Viciedo. Why you would give up all your budget flexibility to sign a DH? Why would you block your best hitting prospect and force you to think about trading Quentin?I agree with the first and second paragraphs. However, I didn't want Viciedo DHing this year. First off, you had a great team last year which was stacked other than a DH. A DH kept them from a playoff run. I didn't want them to hand that over to a first year player, especially when being put into a situation (coached by Walker) in which young players traditionally struggle and veteran players get their heads and swings messed up by his tweaking. That was a recipe for disaster. Sure, he would have likely provided more than Kotsay, but this team needed a top-flight DH for what was a glaring hole. I don't think Viciedo up here hitting .230 and getting booed would have helped him or the franchise long term. I also felt that he needed more time in the minors to fine tune his game, as he is talented enough to play in the outfield. It was too early to pigeonhole him as a DH. More importantly, Viciedo, along with every single one of our best hitters, is righthanded, and the Sox needed a lefty power bat. We have seen the problem with the Sox being overly righthanded from 2000-2005 and I don't want to go back to that.

captain54
07-26-2011, 03:47 PM
captain - hope skot's response was a little less moronic.

Dunn signed with the Sox because of some combination of factors including money/chances he felt team was good/city, etc.

One of those combination of factors being that he is a defensive liability, strikes out a lot, and wanted a boatload of money.

My response was to the statement that 30 clubs would love to have him on their roster. That simply isn't true

I think you're better at coming up with witty, sarcastic zinger one-liners than simple baseball logic.

Lip Man 1
07-26-2011, 03:49 PM
Gonzo says the Peavy deal wasn't as one sided as some folks (Phil Rogers?) make it out to be:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/chi-peavy-trade-hasnt-worked-well-for-san-diego-either-20110726,0,4317752.story

Lip

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 03:58 PM
I agree with the first and second paragraphs. However, I didn't want Viciedo DHing this year. First off, you had a great team last year which was stacked other than a DH. A DH kept them from a playoff run. I didn't want them to hand that over to a first year player, especially when being put into a situation (coached by Walker) in which young players traditionally struggle and veteran players get their heads and swings messed up by his tweaking. That was a recipe for disaster. Sure, he would have likely provided more than Kotsay, but this team needed a top-flight DH for what was a glaring hole. I don't think Viciedo up here hitting .230 and getting booed would have helped him or the franchise long term. I also felt that he needed more time in the minors to fine tune his game, as he is talented enough to play in the outfield. It was too early to pigeonhole him as a DH. More importantly, Viciedo, along with every single one of our best hitters, is righthanded, and the Sox needed a lefty power bat. We have seen the problem with the Sox being overly righthanded from 2000-2005 and I don't want to go back to that.

Fair enough. But they originally thought Viciedo was a 3B, and when he couldn't handle that position they had to find stopgaps for 3B. And the reports on his outfielding are mixed at best. If Dayan hits, he could have a long major league career, but most of it is going to be at 1B/DH.

There are always plausible DH candidates around for short money. Even a Jack Cust would've been a nice insurance policy for Viciedo. Last year, the Twins found a bargain lefthanded DH, and Andruw Jones was pretty good for us. It was only Kotsay who was terrible, and KW should've dumped Kotsay so Ozzie couldn't keep using him.

And Quentin's another fine in-house DH candidate. Another option would have been trading for an affordable centerfielder or rightfielder and keeping some flexibility to make midseason deals.

And Konerko will obviously move to DH at some point.

I understand where you're coming from, but Dunn was always an expensive luxury, not the right move for KW.

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 04:08 PM
One of those combination of factors being that he is a defensive liability, strikes out a lot, and wanted a boatload of money.

My response was to the statement that 30 clubs would love to have him on their roster. That simply isn't true

I think you're better at coming up with witty, sarcastic zinger one-liners than simple baseball logic.

First of all, I said that there were 30 GMs that would love a guy with his track record. Notice I didn't say Adam Dunn is that guy, but still, Adam Dunn is going to find a spot in nearly every lineup in the league, regardless of whether you like him or not.

When you average 40 home runs and 100 RBI every season, defense matters very little, especially when half the league doesn't need him to play defense.

He's a prototypical slugger, of course he's going to strikeout.

If Dunn was having an even remotely-average season, this conversation wouldn't be happening.

I'm sorry you don't like him.

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 04:15 PM
What Kenny Williams was really saying (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_ken_williams_was_really_saying/5736832).

Soxfest
07-26-2011, 04:18 PM
KW has no idea what he wants to do in between is the worst place to be ever!

kittle42
07-26-2011, 04:20 PM
One of those combination of factors being that he is a defensive liability, strikes out a lot, and wanted a boatload of money.

My response was to the statement that 30 clubs would love to have him on their roster. That simply isn't true

I think you're better at coming up with witty, sarcastic zinger one-liners than simple baseball logic.

Luckily, I don't have to, since skot is saying exactly what I'm thinking, anyway.

Quit pretending like Adam Dunn was some widely regarded washed up, no talent player before April 2011.

kittle42
07-26-2011, 04:21 PM
KW has no idea what he wants to do in between is the worst place to be ever!

It's an indictment of the team he put together that he is in that position right now, so he has no one to blame but himself (oh, and Dunn and Rios, but they also kinda just go back to blaming him).

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 04:21 PM
What Kenny Williams was really saying (http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_ken_williams_was_really_saying/5736832).

To trim payroll without affecting the team's prospects this year, Jackson absolutely has to go -- whether we win the next five or lose them.

But trading Quentin would hurt the team's chances. He's a productive bat, and Viciedo would be a downgrade. Some way, somehow, Kenny needs to trade Dunn (even if it means eating a chunk of salary) and upgrade at DH.

thomas35forever
07-26-2011, 04:23 PM
But trading Quentin would hurt the team's chances. He's a productive bat, and Viciedo would be a downgrade.
Are you kidding?! Viciedo is an upgrade over anybody we have! Have you not been reading these forums?

Fenway
07-26-2011, 04:51 PM
Ken Rosenthal suggests that JR wants payroll slashed at once

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_ken_williams_was_really_saying/5736832

Gavin
07-26-2011, 04:59 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 05:00 PM
Another way to save money and not hurt our chances? Stop paying Walker.

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 05:05 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me, either.

Noneck
07-26-2011, 05:07 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

And a proven major league player both in the field and at the plate. Trading him for salary relief and replacing him with an unproven prospect is a very dangerous move. Reinsdorf has tried to repair his reputation as a result of the white flag year, he better be very careful here.

Milw
07-26-2011, 05:11 PM
If they trade Quentin, they better take those "All In" ads down immediately. Looking big picture, I can't say I'd blame them if they dealt TCQ, particularly if they got back a high-ceiling, near-term prospect like Rasmus... but they can't keep saying "All In" with a straight face while trading their best hitter.

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 05:24 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

Indeed. But there aren't many players that Kenny has available to him that would both cut salary and bring back a solid return. Edwin is viewed expendable because of the glut of starters, while Carlos can be replaced by Dayan. The team is probably better off holding onto both players for the best shot at the division this season, but that doesn't seem to be an option if Jerry wants payroll cut.

Over By There
07-26-2011, 05:52 PM
Some say 86 wins may take this division.

From this point on sox have to go 36-21 to hit that mark.

I feel secure with 92 but that would require a 42- 19 mark which would be asking something.

Sounds ominous but 36-21 would give them a record of 86-72 (158 games). 36-25 is what you're looking for. Still not confidence-inspiring but not impossible.

I wish there was an example of a team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2010-schedule-scores.shtml) 3.5 games out on July 26 with strong pitching and weak offense that went on to win the World Series... :wink:

captain54
07-26-2011, 06:07 PM
Sounds ominous but 36-21 would give them a record of 86-72 (158 games). 36-25 is what you're looking for. Still not confidence-inspiring but not impossible.

I wish there was an example of a team (http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/SFG/2010-schedule-scores.shtml) 3.5 games out on July 26 with strong pitching and weak offense that went on to win the World Series... :wink:

The Giants were 12 games over .500 at this time last year.

WhiteSox5187
07-26-2011, 06:12 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

The thing with Quentin is that he is an incredibly streaky. He's hot right now but I wouldn't be shocked if within two weeks he is back to popping everything up to the second baseman.

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 06:38 PM
Indeed. But there aren't many players that Kenny has available to him that would both cut salary and bring back a solid return. Edwin is viewed expendable because of the glut of starters, while Carlos can be replaced by Dayan. The team is probably better off holding onto both players for the best shot at the division this season, but that doesn't seem to be an option if Jerry wants payroll cut.

If the team were really "all in" they would eat half of Dunn's salary and trade him. Viciedo to DH.

Of course, if the team were really "all in" they would fire Ozzie.

Neither will happen. I hope Q is not traded unless we get a big haul back.

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 06:39 PM
I think we need a countdown.

5

balke
07-26-2011, 06:54 PM
The thing with Quentin is that he is an incredibly streaky. He's hot right now but I wouldn't be shocked if within two weeks he is back to popping everything up to the second baseman.

I think he turns it on and off somehow. If he were always as pumped up and locked in as he seems to be right now - I think his near MVP season would be duplicated repeatedly.

He just randomly has a week where he just seems to be trying to make contact - then a week where he looks like he is going to explode if he doesn't hit the ball as hard as possible.

balke
07-26-2011, 06:56 PM
I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.


Everyone seems to think Viciedo would fix the offense. If he's as good as people make him out to be - why can't he replace Quentin?

Tragg
07-26-2011, 07:00 PM
The only way to really trim payroll is to do something with MB or Konerko. And that would be "White Flagging it" to the 10th degree.

Quentin is just nibbling. Thornton is nibbling (although movable as there are 3 LHRPs on the roster). Jackson is more than nibbling but less than slashing.

Rios, Peavy, and Dunn, the real problems (as they are the non-performers) are immovable.

That said, if you move Quentin for a pitcher (like the Braves deal) then you could move Jackson and bring in Vic to play RF I guess.

JB98
07-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Everyone seems to think Viciedo would fix the offense. If he's as good as people make him out to be - why can't he replace Quentin?

He may not be as good as people make him out to be. Nobody knows exactly what Viciedo would do with regular playing time at the MLB level.

We do know that Quentin is the second most productive hitter on the team, streaks and all. And after him, it's a long dropoff to the third most productive hitter.

If the Sox trade Q, they are getting ready for next season. That's OK if that's what they decide to do, but they better get a nice return. None of this mid-tier prospect ****.

Gavin
07-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Everyone seems to think Viciedo would fix the offense. If he's as good as people make him out to be - why can't he replace Quentin?

I think a lot of people, maybe everyone, thought Dayan was better than April-June Pierre. This is the first I heard that Dayan would be a suitable replacement for Quentin.

balke
07-26-2011, 07:25 PM
He may not be as good as people make him out to be. Nobody knows exactly what Viciedo would do with regular playing time at the MLB level.

We do know that Quentin is the second most productive hitter on the team, streaks and all. And after him, it's a long dropoff to the third most productive hitter.

If the Sox trade Q, they are getting ready for next season. That's OK if that's what they decide to do, but they better get a nice return. None of this mid-tier prospect ****.

Well yeah - get a decent return. But, I hope Sox fans are smart enough to understand that you trade good players when you want a good return. Viciedo is who the fans wanted - be careful what you wish for.

If Trumbo weren't on the Angels - we might be looking at Konerko being gone too. Would actually maybe help to get Dunn at 1B so no more excuses about him being a DH - and opening the door at DH for Viciedo and keeping Quentin.

Sox will be fine - they aren't winning with Q - so why not try winning without him?

balke
07-26-2011, 07:26 PM
I think a lot of people, maybe everyone, thought Dayan was better than April-June Pierre. This is the first I heard that Dayan would be a suitable replacement for Quentin.

It really shouldn't be a surprise. He's being trained as a RFer. Where did you expect him to go?

JB98
07-26-2011, 07:40 PM
Well yeah - get a decent return. But, I hope Sox fans are smart enough to understand that you trade good players when you want a good return. Viciedo is who the fans wanted - be careful what you wish for.

If Trumbo weren't on the Angels - we might be looking at Konerko being gone too. Would actually maybe help to get Dunn at 1B so no more excuses about him being a DH - and opening the door at DH for Viciedo and keeping Quentin.

Sox will be fine - they aren't winning with Q - so why not try winning without him?

Heh, heh, good luck with that. The Sox would be playing at Kansas City levels without Konerko and Quentin. They are the only two run producers in the whole lineup.

I'm fine with Viciedo replacing Pierre, whose production is very easy to replace. I'm cool with Viciedo replacing Dunn, whose production is very easy to replace.

Viciedo replacing Quentin? Well, maybe he could do it. But the jury is out.

JB98
07-26-2011, 07:41 PM
It really shouldn't be a surprise. He's being trained as a RFer. Where did you expect him to go?

They could put Viciedo in RF and move Quentin back to LF. That's not much of a stretch.

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 07:44 PM
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1385894130/nfldraft_normal.jpg
MikeSolarte (http://twitter.com/#%21/MikeSolarte) Mike Solarte
Alejandro DeAza taken out of @KnightsBaseball (http://twitter.com/KnightsBaseball) game in top 1. Movement within @whitesox (http://twitter.com/whitesox) organization?
9 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/MikeSolarte/status/96000073661550592) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

Please be called up to replace Rios in CF.

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 07:46 PM
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/1385894130/nfldraft_normal.jpg
MikeSolarte (http://twitter.com/#%21/MikeSolarte) Mike Solarte
Folks with @KnightsBaseball (http://twitter.com/KnightsBaseball) say DeAza being recalled to big club. Reason not known, but good for him. Was hitting .322 in CLT #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23WhiteSox)
7 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/MikeSolarte/status/96001717786779648) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

If mods think this deserves its own thread, feel free to move this.

balke
07-26-2011, 07:50 PM
Heh, heh, good luck with that. The Sox would be playing at Kansas City levels without Konerko and Quentin.


That too is what I expect. If they go young - they gamble. This year at least they wait for next year and hope and pray Dunn wakes up in the offseason so they have some kind of run producer. Then, you see how the guys you got fit into the system - make decisions on what position is upgradeable - then you spend money.

Sox won't be good just because they make a trade. The whole point would be to step backward and get young. Shed salary to buy younger pitchers with talent, and younger guys who are good hitters. Won't happen overnight.

KMcMahon817
07-26-2011, 07:50 PM
If mods think this deserves its own thread, feel free to move this.


Hmm...verrry interesting.

thomas35forever
07-26-2011, 07:54 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/white-sox-want-to-trim-payroll-.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Doesn't mean they'll be sellers though.

hi im skot
07-26-2011, 08:05 PM
The Rosenthal story has been posted here at least three times.

Hitmen77
07-26-2011, 09:40 PM
Ken Rosenthal suggests that JR wants payroll slashed at once

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_ken_williams_was_really_saying/5736832

Yayy!!!!! If this is true, then maybe we have the makings of White Flag II. I wonder how long it will take the fan base to recover from such a debacle.

To trim payroll without affecting the team's prospects this year, Jackson absolutely has to go -- whether we win the next five or lose them.

But trading Quentin would hurt the team's chances. He's a productive bat, and Viciedo would be a downgrade. Some way, somehow, Kenny needs to trade Dunn (even if it means eating a chunk of salary) and upgrade at DH.

I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

I agree 100%. If the Sox are trading Quentin, then they're totally throwing in the towel. There's no other way to spin it.

Fenway
07-26-2011, 09:48 PM
After the way Andrew Miller pitched at Fenway tonight you can bet Theo has called KW - Boston NEEDS a starter - nothing else

Brian26
07-26-2011, 09:56 PM
After the way Andrew Miller pitched at Fenway tonight you can bet Theo has called KW - Boston NEEDS a starter - nothing else

Edwin for Ellsbury, straight-up. Final offer.

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 09:58 PM
Edwin for Ellsbury, straight-up. Final offer.

Lavarnway too.

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Edwin for Ellsbury, straight-up. Final offer.

:KW

"What if we throw in this brand new de Aza?

Now how much would you pay?"

Fenway
07-26-2011, 09:59 PM
Edwin for Ellsbury, straight-up. Final offer.

Jenks and Drew and we will throw in a bucket of fried clams

Fenway
07-26-2011, 10:02 PM
Lavarnway too.

Saw him in Pawtucket last week - he is feasting on AAA pitching - scouts say he could be another Mauer.

He will NOT be moved

GoSox2K3
07-26-2011, 10:04 PM
Ken Rosenthal suggests that JR wants payroll slashed at once

http://mlbbuzz.yardbarker.com/blog/mlbbuzz/what_ken_williams_was_really_saying/5736832

I can't see how trading TCQ and staying competitive are anything but mutually exclusive. He's the Sox' hottest player right now.

If JR's reaction to this crappy season is to get rid of Quentin (one of our few productive offensive players) while keeping the KW, Ozzie and Walker team who brought us this crapfest intact, that will be a ****ing joke.

White Sox Baseball: We'll underachieve, blame the fans for not showing up, and trade away one of our few good players.....while keeping our lousy management team intact! ALL IN, BABY!!!!:rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
07-26-2011, 11:26 PM
For what it's worth:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-report-reinsdorf-looking-to-slash-payroll-20110726,0,3784354.story

Lip

thomas35forever
07-26-2011, 11:27 PM
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129407

A. Cavatica
07-26-2011, 11:28 PM
Fourth such thread...

DirtySox
07-26-2011, 11:28 PM
Discussed at length in the latter portion of this thread (http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=129378).

Lip Man 1
07-26-2011, 11:33 PM
My apologies.

Lip

Tragg
07-26-2011, 11:34 PM
Jenks and Drew and we will throw in a bucket of fried clams
Jackson and Rios for the bucket of clams

AnkleSox
07-27-2011, 09:34 AM
Jackson and Rios for the bucket of clams

Only if we can sign the clams to an extension.

pudge
07-27-2011, 11:58 AM
I'm sure I can find you 30 major league GMs that would love to have a guy with his track record in their lineup.

And what is the track record? A .220 average and 200 Ks? Sorry, no way all 30 GMs want that in their lineup. And if they did, they certainly don't after this season!

slavko
07-27-2011, 12:14 PM
Frasor? Betcha a lemon cookie they are trying to move Thornton. Wouldn't you? A situational lefty getting closer money?

balke
07-27-2011, 12:24 PM
Frasor? Betcha a lemon cookie they are trying to move Thornton. Wouldn't you? A situational lefty getting closer money?

Could still be something like Thornton/Buehrle for Rasmus.

Tragg
07-27-2011, 12:31 PM
Could still be something like Thornton/Buehrle for Rasmus. We're down to 5 starters now...that would make 4.

balke
07-27-2011, 12:33 PM
That's 10mil in fat trimmed from a bad team just about. I want more gone.

pythons007
07-27-2011, 12:34 PM
Could still be something like Thornton/Buehrle for Rasmus.

Rasmus is suppose to be in a deal for Jackson and the Blue Jays.

balke
07-27-2011, 12:39 PM
Rasmus is suppose to be in a deal for Jackson and the Blue Jays.

Must be Morel/Buehrle/Thornton for Freese then. /deeppink

CPditka
07-27-2011, 01:18 PM
How about this trade:

Dan Hudson and Chris Getz for Zack Stewart and Jason Frasor.......

boiker
07-27-2011, 02:00 PM
I hated it then and like it now. The main reason? I was 19 then and 33 now - older and wiser...

Exactly the same for me down to the ages.

A. Cavatica
07-27-2011, 07:44 PM
4

soxfanreggie
07-27-2011, 08:16 PM
We're down to 5 starters now...that would make 4.

Perhaps if that were to happened we would call up a AAA starter to give him innings and cut payroll if we truly are looking to blow things up and go young.

DirtySox
07-28-2011, 08:02 PM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1130468780/9-15_20Lachat_20cowley_201_normal.jpg
cst_Cowley (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley) cst_Cowley
Disappointing to hear, but was just told that KW doesn't really believe in this team and is looking to ship more bodies out.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley/status/96731813950668801) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

DickAllen72
07-28-2011, 08:05 PM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1130468780/9-15_20Lachat_20cowley_201_normal.jpg
cst_Cowley (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley) cst_Cowley
Disappointing to hear, but was just told that KW doesn't really believe in this team and is looking to ship more bodies out.
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley/status/96731813950668801) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)
Cowley knows there are more moves coming so he's trying to preempt with negative spin.

sodfatherjunior
07-28-2011, 08:07 PM
I highly, highly doubt KW actually came right out and said that, on an off day let alone......

DickAllen72
07-28-2011, 08:15 PM
I highly, highly doubt KW actually came right out and said that, on an off day let alone......
I just read on another site Cowley now tweeting that if KW doesn't get a deal he likes now he's willing to wait until the offseason. Gee, what news!:rolleyes:

russ99
07-28-2011, 08:31 PM
How about this trade:

Dan Hudson and Chris Getz (and Josh Field) for Zack Stewart and Jason Frasor.......

No, it's Dan Hudson and Chris Getz/Josh Fields as they were at the time on the Sox for Zach Stewart and Jason Frasor.

There's no indication that Getz would get the same playing time here as he has in KC, and no indication that Hudson would be the same pitcher in the AL with tougher hitting teams and the DH, than he is now in the NL.

A. Cavatica
07-28-2011, 09:01 PM
no indication that Hudson would be the same pitcher in the AL with tougher hitting teams and the DH, than he is now in the NL.

Bull. Young pitchers who climb through four minor league levels to the majors in one season, maintaining their peripherals, have very high ceilings. I am surprised he has been so good so quickly for the D-Backs, but I would have been more surprised if he failed.

3

DirtySox
07-28-2011, 09:20 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1281100822/IMG00105-20110306-1349_normal.jpg
CST_soxvan (http://twitter.com/#%21/CST_soxvan) Daryl Van Schouwen
sox source: more movement to come
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CST_soxvan/status/96751291094675456) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

kobo
07-28-2011, 09:39 PM
With the way this team has performed and the fact they are losing money, it really won't shock/surprise me if someone like Konerko or Buehrle is moved. That will really suck if that happened, but as long as KW gets fair value for whoever he moves I'll be happy. I don't think anyone is safe right now. It will also be interesting to see who they put on the waiver wire.

Noneck
07-28-2011, 09:48 PM
This would be a great time to be a fly on the wall watching the chairman. He probably wants to dump but now being 3 out, 2 in the loss, he is caught between a rock and a very hard place. If he dumps now the white flag year will seem like a day at beach, if he doesnt and the team tanks, the future may be very grim. The only way he wins is if the Sox win the division. A couple sleepless nights ahead for him.

JB98
07-28-2011, 09:54 PM
With the way this team has performed and the fact they are losing money, it really won't shock/surprise me if someone like Konerko or Buehrle is moved. That will really suck if that happened, but as long as KW gets fair value for whoever he moves I'll be happy. I don't think anyone is safe right now. It will also be interesting to see who they put on the waiver wire.

I'd be floored if they move Konerko or Buehrle.

Hitmen77
07-28-2011, 09:56 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/1281100822/IMG00105-20110306-1349_normal.jpg
CST_soxvan (http://twitter.com/#%21/CST_soxvan) Daryl Van Schouwen
sox source: more movement to come
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/CST_soxvan/status/96751291094675456) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

Is this referring to Sox fans hurling?
:puking:

Viva Medias B's
07-28-2011, 10:07 PM
Buehrle and Konerko are the core, keep them.

ChiSoxGirl
07-28-2011, 10:20 PM
Buehrle and Konerko are the core, keep them.

:yup:

TommyGavinFloyd
07-28-2011, 10:33 PM
Well, another Sox writer is saying (http://twitter.com/CSNChi_Beatnik) not only are they not doing any White Flag type trades but doesn't be surprised if they add payroll. So who knows. Just beat Wakefield tomorrow and go from there.

Lip Man 1
07-28-2011, 11:09 PM
I actually thought this was the funniest in all those tweets:

"Is Phil Rogers contractually obligated to pee all over Ken Williams, under any and all circumstances? Time to learn a new trick."

LOL

Lip

gosox41
07-28-2011, 11:10 PM
Well, another Sox writer is saying (http://twitter.com/CSNChi_Beatnik) not only are they not doing any White Flag type trades but doesn't be surprised if they add payroll. So who knows. Just beat Wakefield tomorrow and go from there.


Some of these writers are idiots. Based on what I heard and a little common sense, the Sox will probably not make any drastic moves to reduce payroll that will look like a White Flag Trade. This means TCQ is more likely to be traded for young pitching with Viciedo coming up to replace his bat then it does that PK is going to AZ for 2 young prospects.

There are 2 caveats with this scenario changing:
1. The Sox lose the first two to the Red Sox and are 5 games out of first.
2. A team offers the Sox a trade they can't refuse (ie the Yankees offer their 2 top pitching prospects and Montero for Danks.)

I don't see them adding any significant payroll. I can also see them trading TCQ and getting at least one ML ready SP and then trading another starter to fill another hole.


Bob

kufram
07-29-2011, 02:12 AM
This would be a great time to be a fly on the wall watching the chairman. He probably wants to dump but now being 3 out, 2 in the loss, he is caught between a rock and a very hard place. If he dumps now the white flag year will seem like a day at beach, if he doesnt and the team tanks, the future may be very grim. The only way he wins is if the Sox win the division. A couple sleepless nights ahead for him.

Not so hard for JR if he wants to dump. He can just say it's what the fans have wanted since May.

Mohoney
07-29-2011, 02:12 AM
I'd be floored if they move Konerko or Buehrle.

I'm done with this franchise for the rest of my life if they move Konerko or Buehrle being only 3.5 games out.

SoxNation05
07-29-2011, 02:50 AM
i'm done with this franchise for the rest of my life if they move konerko or buehrle being only 3.5 games out.

3*

Falstaff
07-29-2011, 03:12 AM
I'm done with this franchise for the rest of my life if they move Konerko or Buehrle being only 3.5 games out.
Agreed, and I am thinking your declaration will probably be the grain of sand that makes Jerry reconsider any rash decisions. I do think he reads these boards for insight/ideas and for pulse of the most dedicated Sox fans.

TommyJohn
07-29-2011, 07:39 AM
I'm done with this franchise for the rest of my life if they move Konerko or Buehrle being only 3.5 games out.

I am done, done done with this team if they pull off a White Flag surrender trade when they are only 3.5 games out.

On the other hand, I am done, done, done with them if they don't tear down this team and get rid of payroll and rebuild from the ground up.

Either way, I am set and determined to be pissed off.

palehozenychicty
07-29-2011, 08:09 AM
I am done, done done with this team if they pull off a White Flag surrender trade when they are only 3.5 games out.

On the other hand, I am done, done, done with them if they don't tear down this team and get rid of payroll and rebuild from the ground up.

Either way, I am set and determined to be pissed off.

Let the games begin! :tongue:

hawkjt
07-29-2011, 08:20 AM
I actually thought this was the funniest in all those tweets:

"Is Phil Rogers contractually obligated to pee all over Ken Williams, under any and all circumstances? Time to learn a new trick."

LOL

Lip

As derisive as Joe Cowley is of ''Phillip'', he is joined at the hip with Rogers on one issue....Kenny Williams is their whipping boy.

guillensdisciple
07-29-2011, 11:24 AM
Buehrle and Konerko are the core, keep them.


Uhhh, both aging players who will probably be gone after 3 or 4 years and you want to keep them as your core?

Shouldn't your focus be on the younger players if that's where you're going with this. Maybe Danks and Humber should be the line of focus. Anything else to me, if you're selling is fair game.


EDIT: Take back on Burls, I forgot how young he is. Keep him as part of the staff.

daveeym
07-29-2011, 11:27 AM
I am done, done done with this team if they pull off a White Flag surrender trade when they are only 3.5 games out.

On the other hand, I am done, done, done with them if they don't tear down this team and get rid of payroll and rebuild from the ground up.

Either way, I am set and determined to be pissed off.

:bitchslap::whiteflag::gulp: I'm older and I'm all fine with blowing this up though. This 3.5 seems like 35.

doublem23
07-29-2011, 12:14 PM
:bitchslap::whiteflag::gulp: I'm older and I'm all fine with blowing this up though. This 3.5 seems like 35.

As of right now, it's only 3

soxfan1965
07-29-2011, 02:58 PM
Williams is City's Man of Action? (Dan McNeil) - sounds kind of crazy, his payroll cutting is just doing damage control for his really bad bad deals:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0729-dan-mcneil--20110729,0,6429259.column

So with the lower payroll team we also get Tony LaRussa in 2012 as manager and eventually Team President??? (Phil Rogers) - maybe his first action will be to fire Hawk:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0729-rogers-tony-la-russa-whit20110729,0,1369039.column

Noneck
07-29-2011, 03:38 PM
As of right now, it's only 3

And 2 in the loss column.

Fenway
07-30-2011, 05:27 PM
From ESPN Boston

From: @GordonEdes
Sent: Jul 30, 2011 5:06p

White Sox GM Kenny Williams told Chicago reporters further trades "very, very unlikely" --which means LHP Thornton not going to Boston

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/GordonEdes/status/97412787902492672

Nelfox02
07-30-2011, 05:35 PM
From ESPN Boston

From: @GordonEdes
Sent: Jul 30, 2011 5:06p

White Sox GM Kenny Williams told Chicago reporters further trades "very, very unlikely" --which means LHP Thornton not going to Boston

sent via TweetDeck
On Twitter: http://twitter.com/GordonEdes/status/97412787902492672


guess I am happy about this? maybe? still pretty torn on this team and what it should be doing.......heart is saying stay the course with what we have and try to win this division and then see where you go.....but head is saying that longer term tha might not be the best course

Zisk77
07-30-2011, 05:47 PM
guess I am happy about this? maybe? still pretty torn on this team and what it should be doing.......heart is saying stay the course with what we have and try to win this division and then see where you go.....but head is saying that longer term tha might not be the best course

Well, I bet we could still get great value for TCQ and Thornton in the offseason.

Fenway
07-30-2011, 05:49 PM
guess I am happy about this? maybe? still pretty torn on this team and what it should be doing.......heart is saying stay the course with what we have and try to win this division and then see where you go.....but head is saying that longer term tha might not be the best course

Since Kenny said 'it is up to the players' they have won 3 of 4.

Francona just said 'Chicago is as good as any team we have played this year.'

DickAllen72
07-30-2011, 05:55 PM
Since Kenny said 'it is up to the players' they have won 3 of 4.

Francona just said 'Chicago is as good as any team we have played this year.'
It should have been 4 of 4 if Ozzie would have pulled Peavy after the fifth inning the other night when everybody else knew he had nothing left.

A. Cavatica
07-30-2011, 09:33 PM
For the love of god, Kenny, sell. Sell!

As soon as the trade deadline passes this club will lose six straight. It's in the script.

daveeym
07-30-2011, 09:49 PM
For the love of god, Kenny, sell. Sell!

As soon as the trade deadline passes this club will lose six straight. It's in the script.
And then the pitching will implode. After having to be perfect all year. Dunn and Rios will start to hit, paulie will slump and the staff will start throwing away games and then everyone will start saying get rid of the pitchers on this site.

A. Cavatica
07-30-2011, 09:54 PM
1

A. Cavatica
08-04-2011, 09:53 PM
For the love of god, Kenny, sell. Sell!

As soon as the trade deadline passes this club will lose six straight. It's in the script.

Chapter next: the pitching starts to fall apart.

Gavin
08-04-2011, 10:06 PM
Chapter future: Sox suck until at least 2014 or so.

TheOldRoman
08-04-2011, 10:29 PM
Chapter future: Sox suck until at least 2014 or so.I remember reading that chapter in 2007, and then the Sox went and won the division the next year.:scratch:

doublem23
08-04-2011, 10:36 PM
I remember reading that chapter in 2007, and then the Sox went and won the division the next year.:scratch:

Yeah, although that 2007 team wasn't saddled with nearly as much money in sunk costs, but I agree, there's no reason a few savvy moves can't have us back in the playoffs in 2012.

First, fire Ozzie. Hell that might do the trick alone.

ChicagoG19
08-04-2011, 10:58 PM
Yeah, although that 2007 team wasn't saddled with nearly as much money in sunk costs, but I agree, there's no reason a few savvy moves can't have us back in the playoffs in 2012.

First, fire Ozzie. Hell that might do the trick alone.

That will help. And there is no way Adam Dunn sucks this bad again next year.

balke
08-04-2011, 11:20 PM
That will help. And there is no way Adam Dunn sucks this bad again next year.


No way? I'm starting to doubt it. Tuned in today in the 7th. He was just... awful. Not even close - guessing and flailing. How can you have faith that there's "no way". He's just not even on this planet. He's made the "beer league softball player in the majors" stereotype a reality.

DirtySox
08-04-2011, 11:27 PM
Can the White Sox Get a July 31st Do-Over? (http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/8590096/31108565)

A. Cavatica
08-04-2011, 11:29 PM
How much does Greg Walker earn? How much does Ozzie earn?

Because you could replace them with a couple of fan volunteers and get the same results.

central44
08-05-2011, 01:12 AM
That will help. And there is no way Adam Dunn sucks this bad again next year.

I agree, if Dunn has even a shred of pride...he'll work extremely hard this off-season to prevent anything close to this year from ever happening again.

That goes for the whole team. It wouldn't surprise me to see the whole team bounce back and have a good year next year. Dunn alone having a comeback year would make a significant difference, and maybe if a new manager, who holds players accountable, is hired...well, who knows? I'm not holding my breath, to say the least.

...maybe i'm too optimistic. Still.

Dan H
08-05-2011, 06:47 AM
I agree, if Dunn has even a shred of pride...he'll work extremely hard this off-season to prevent anything close to this year from ever happening again.

That goes for the whole team. It wouldn't surprise me to see the whole team bounce back and have a good year next year. Dunn alone having a comeback year would make a significant difference, and maybe if a new manager, who holds players accountable, is hired...well, who knows? I'm not holding my breath, to say the least.

...maybe i'm too optimistic. Still.

You shouldn't hold your breath. We've been waiting all season for Adam Dunn, and things only worsened.

Many things have to change to turn this team around. The first thing to do is face facts and admit Adam Dunn is no longer a quality major league player.

TheOldRoman
08-05-2011, 09:58 AM
You shouldn't hold your breath. We've been waiting all season for Adam Dunn, and things only worsened.

Many things have to change to turn this team around. The first thing to do is face facts and admit Adam Dunn is no longer a quality major league player.That's nonsense. Players dont, while still in their prime at 31, go from having monster seasons one year to having one of the worst seasons ever. Once again, that is taking the easy way out - he is horrible, we never should have signed him, I hate Ken Williams, etc. There is a reason he is performing so poorly, and the huge majority of it is mental. Having time away from the game in the offseason will help him. He might not hit 40 homers next year, but you are certifiably insane if you think he will be hitting .170 next August. Guys don't go from being one of the best in the game to not being able to make a roster in the span of a year.

Hitmen77
08-05-2011, 11:22 AM
Yeah, although that 2007 team wasn't saddled with nearly as much money in sunk costs, but I agree, there's no reason a few savvy moves can't have us back in the playoffs in 2012.

First, fire Ozzie. Hell that might do the trick alone.

That's why I think this year isn't comparable to 2007. In 2007, the Sox still had payroll room to sign Buehrle to a $56M extension. They also were buyers in the offseason going after Hunter. I don't see them sending money on anything for next year. In fact, they'll be slashing payroll as ticket sales drop while they're stuck paying $43M to Dunn, Rios, and Peavy.

We did add Alexei in '08, so maybe that'll be sort of comparable to adding Viciedo in '12.

Of course, you never know. Who would have guessed in 2007 that KW would trade for a player who would be an MVP candidate in 2008. But, I'm not exactly counting on another such trade taking place before next season.