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View Full Version : Ozzie: "If we wait for ****ing Viciedo to be the savior, we're in deep ****."


JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 10:29 PM
Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/6479/white-soxs-guillen-tired-of-all-the-viciedo-talk)

Didn't he say the same thing about Beckham in 2009?

HaroMaster87
07-23-2011, 10:33 PM
...and he is correct. On both...

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 10:34 PM
...and he is correct. On both...

The team is in pretty deep **** as we speak.

I find it interesting though that he says that Dayan can help, but then says he likes the talent here.

Well, if he can help the team, why isn't he here?

Boondock Saint
07-23-2011, 10:37 PM
Ozzie's a goddamned idiot. We don't need a savior, we need HELP. But I'm sure he can't tell the difference, which is why he keeps spewing this stupid savior talk.

Oh, and here's a news flash, Ozzie. The team IS in deep ****. You haven't been above .500 since April.

balke
07-23-2011, 10:37 PM
The team is in pretty deep **** as we speak.

I find it interesting though that he says that Dayan can help, but then says he likes the talent here.

Well, if he can help the team, why isn't he here?

He could help the team at DH and salary.

Boondock Saint
07-23-2011, 10:39 PM
He could help the team at DH and salary.

No, he can't.

HaroMaster87
07-23-2011, 10:44 PM
Im taking it as there is plenty of talent on the roster already so if they need Viciedo to save them...they're screwed anyway

balke
07-23-2011, 10:46 PM
No, he can't.

If he replaces Q on the roster he can.

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 10:47 PM
Just from googling it, looks like Ozzie's statement regarding Beckham came right before he was called up.

FWIW, Dayan was pulled in the 6th inning of Charlotte's game today.

balke
07-23-2011, 10:49 PM
Im taking it as there is plenty of talent on the roster already so if they need Viciedo to save them...they're screwed anyway


I think people forgot they saw Viciedo last year. He's likely going to replace Carlos in RF - that's what he's been playing in the minors. So a guy with 18 homeruns is going to be replaced by a minor leaguer who hits the ball hard but never takes a walk. I don't think it's really an upgrade over Carlos Quentin even if he plays as well as people seem to think he will.

Boondock Saint
07-23-2011, 10:51 PM
If he replaces Q on the roster he can.


Dayan Viciedo isn't sending anyone anywhere, personally. KW would be able to help the team financially, but calling up Viciedo doesn't do anything but add to the salary. Calling up Viciedo and any trade that might happen as a result of that are completely independent.

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 10:51 PM
I think people forgot they saw Viciedo last year. He's likely going to replace Carlos in RF - that's what he's been playing in the minors. So a guy with 18 homeruns is going to be replaced by a minor leaguer who hits the ball hard but never takes a walk. I don't think it's really an upgrade over Carlos Quentin even if he plays as well as people seem to think he will.

I personally think he'd be an upgrade over Juan. However, it's looking as if that's never going to happen. Not as long as Ozzie's managing.

And considering this team definitely needs to start thinking about the future, TCQ is a pretty good trading chip.

balke
07-23-2011, 10:55 PM
Dayan Viciedo isn't sending anyone anywhere, personally. KW would be able to help the team financially, but calling up Viciedo doesn't do anything but add to the salary. Calling up Viciedo and any trade that might happen as a result of that are completely independent.


No.. he's already paid his salary. If he is called up and they make room for him by trading Q and his salary they are quite connected in my view.

Soxfest
07-23-2011, 10:56 PM
Sure OG it is dam near August and Sox are still under .500 face it OG the **** is not working anymore.

balke
07-23-2011, 11:06 PM
I personally think he'd be an upgrade over Juan. However, it's looking as if that's never going to happen. Not as long as Ozzie's managing.

And considering this team definitely needs to start thinking about the future, TCQ is a pretty good trading chip.

Juan is the only leadoff option, isn't tradeable with his salary, and has played very well as of late. It would make little sense to just replace him with Viciedo IMO.

I think they should try to get a 3Bman - get Viciedo or De Aza into RF for a bit - and get some hats for Dunn's bats to keep them warm.

DickAllen72
07-23-2011, 11:10 PM
Just from googling it, looks like Ozzie's statement regarding Beckham came right before he was called up.

FWIW, Dayan was pulled in the 6th inning of Charlotte's game today.
Anyone know why Viciedo was pulled after 6 tonight? Is he coming up? Traded? Injured?

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 11:12 PM
Juan is the only leadoff option, isn't tradeable with his salary, and has played very well as of late. It would make little sense to just replace him with Viciedo IMO.

I think they should try to get a 3Bman - get Viciedo or De Aza into RF for a bit - and get some hats for Dunn's bats to keep them warm.

I'm of the opinion that a "lead-off" hitter is overrated.

Also, Juan's contract status makes him expendable.

I will concede though that with Juan's recent play, he's taken himself out of the conversation pretty much. However, I still think he was unnecessarily played for a long long time when he was dreadful because of Ozzie's loyalty to him.

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 11:13 PM
Anyone know why Viciedo was pulled after 6 tonight? Is he coming up? Traded? Injured?

I haven't read anything yet.

There's also the slight possibility that he was pulled for dogging it on the field.

Boondock Saint
07-23-2011, 11:18 PM
No.. he's already paid his salary. If he is called up and they make room for him by trading Q and his salary they are quite connected in my view.

So trading Quentin saves salary. That's still a completely separate move. Nobody's trading Quentin just so Viciedo can play. If Quentin gets traded, it's so we have something in the farm system for the future.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
Wow...twice in three days I got to see the word "****ing" used in front of Viciedo's name by the coaches and manager.

Tactful bunch, them.

tstrike2000
07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
We don't need a savior, we need MLB caliber hitters to step up and not hit .160 in the cleanup spot along with basically the whole bottom of the lineup that's a black hole. Even if Viciedo came up here and was hitting .240-.250 with 10-12 hr's, that would be better than half the lineup as it is now.

JermaineDye05
07-23-2011, 11:19 PM
So trading Quentin saves salary. That's still a completely separate move. Nobody's trading Quentin just so Viciedo can play. If Quentin gets traded, it's so we have something in the farm system for the future.

Agreed.

Trading TCQ would be a rebuilding move. Viciedo being able to play is just a bonus.

Soxman219
07-23-2011, 11:25 PM
:facepalm:

Ranger
07-23-2011, 11:27 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

guillensdisciple
07-23-2011, 11:29 PM
Right, the best thing you can do is allow two .200 and below averages in your line up and not worry about it. You know, the formula for a winning team is to have at least two horrible players on it.

The more you know.

whitesoxfan
07-23-2011, 11:30 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

He can't replace a guy who has a negative WAR and a guy with an OPS of under .600? Hmm. I'm calling bull on that one, Chris.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-23-2011, 11:33 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

Well, he'd have to really try to suck in order to be worse than Dunn. I find it hard to believe that Viciedo couldn't do better than the worst qualifying average in history.

You're right on Rios (God, is he useless, but we're stuck with him), but I'd like to see Dunn put on the DL for 15 days to give him a break (say his knee is acting up) and give Viciedo a shot.

But knowing Ozzie, he'll try to platoon the DH between Viciedo and Teahen, with Teahen getting the majority of the starts there, and then say that Viciedo isn't cut out for the Sox.

tstrike2000
07-23-2011, 11:38 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

Unfortunately true. I don't know much about Viciedo's defensive prowess, but from what I hear, he doesn't have much of one. And no, he's not going to be replacing Dunn since he's still owed 44 mill for 3 more years.

guillensdisciple
07-23-2011, 11:40 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

Listen man, it's not about who he can't or can replace, the fact is this team has so many horrific hitters that room has to be made for him. Rios is a huge liability and so is Adam Dunn. Basically pick your poison. I would let Rios ride the pine and let Viciedo take take the role over in left while maneuvering the outfield a little. THis team can't continue with two black holes in this line up like those two, especially when we have black holes like Beckham and Morel/ Teahen doing their thing too.

Limit the damage, stop making excuses, and find ways to let others play. Enought of this bull****.

EDIT: essentially what you're doing and everyone else who keeps on making this they can't be benched because of money is making an excuse for this team not to make the playoffs. This won't change, nothing will change.

ChicagoG19
07-23-2011, 11:49 PM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.

This. We are stuck Rios and Dunn and I don't know how you solve this problem unless you eat one of their contracts (highly unlikely).

Noneck
07-23-2011, 11:53 PM
We are stuck Rios and Dunn and I don't know how you solve this problem unless you eat one of their contracts (highly unlikely).

Or package a diamond or cubic zirconia with a turd to get a bag of balls.

Brian26
07-24-2011, 12:31 AM
Listen man, it's not about who he can't or can replace, the fact is this team has so many horrific hitters that room has to be made for him. Rios is a huge liability and so is Adam Dunn. Basically pick your poison. I would let Rios ride the pine and let Viciedo take take the role over in left while maneuvering the outfield a little. THis team can't continue with two black holes in this line up like those two, especially when we have black holes like Beckham and Morel/ Teahen doing their thing too.

Limit the damage, stop making excuses, and find ways to let others play. Enought of this bull****.

EDIT: essentially what you're doing and everyone else who keeps on making this they can't be benched because of money is making an excuse for this team not to make the playoffs. This won't change, nothing will change.

I'm trying to figure out what that "maneuvering the outfield a little" means. Please don't tell me "Juan Pierre in CF".

soltrain21
07-24-2011, 12:36 AM
Link (http://espn.go.com/blog/chicago/white-sox/post/_/id/6479/white-soxs-guillen-tired-of-all-the-viciedo-talk)

Didn't he say the same thing about Beckham in 2009?

You mean, like how he was actually right?

Boondock Saint
07-24-2011, 01:15 AM
You mean, like how he was actually right?

Again, why the hell does this have to be a "If he doesn't save the team single-handedly, it's a stupid move" situation? The Sox aren't producing RBI, the DH and one of the outfielders are a MAJOR part of that, and Viciedo can possibly help with that. It was the same thing with Beckham. Chris Getz wasn't good enough, and we had a player in the minors who could do better. Viciedo doesn't need to set the world on fire to improve the team, he just needs to play better than the guy he's replacing.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 01:29 AM
Just to reiterate what I stated earlier...

@scottmerkin (http://twitter.com/#%21/scottmerkin) Scott Merkin



Dayan Viciedo was replaced by Gookie Dawkins in the bottom of the sixth of Saturday's Charlotte win, after Viciedo grounded out in top half

3 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/scottmerkin/status/95001787207122944) via web


@scottmerkin (http://twitter.com/#%21/scottmerkin) Scott Merkin



Nothing more known about Viciedo's departure at this point


Let the speculation commence.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2011, 01:34 AM
If he replaces Q on the roster he can.

No.. he's already paid his salary. If he is called up and they make room for him by trading Q and his salary they are quite connected in my view.I'm stunned that people would be willing to get rid of Quentin for a completely unproven commodity.

Again, why the hell does this have to be a "If he doesn't save the team single-handedly, it's a stupid move" situation? The Sox aren't producing RBI, the DH and one of the outfielders are a MAJOR part of that, and Viciedo can possibly help with that. It was the same thing with Beckham. Chris Getz wasn't good enough, and we had a player in the minors who could do better. Viciedo doesn't need to set the world on fire to improve the team, he just needs to play better than the guy he's replacing.You can't compare it to the Beckham situation. Beckham can play defense. Viciedo apparently cannot. He would be a downgrade from TCQ defensively and there's no guarantee he'd be even as good offensively. The Viciedo situation is starting to remind me of an NFL backup quarterback. Everybody wants him to take over until he actually gets the job.

And you absolutely cannot put Pierre in center; his arm is inadequate in left, it would be a glaring deficiency in center.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 01:36 AM
I'm stunned that people would be willing to get rid of Quentin for a completely unproven commodity.

You can't compare it to the Beckham situation. Beckham can play defense. Viciedo apparently cannot. He would be a downgrade from TCQ defensively and there's no guarantee he'd be even as good offensively. The Viciedo situation is starting to remind me of an NFL backup quarterback. Everybody wants him to take over until he actually gets the job.

And you absolutely cannot put Pierre in center; his arm is inadequate in left, it would be a glaring deficiency in center.

You gotta let Dayan play eventually.

Trading Carlos may be what's best for this team.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2011, 01:39 AM
You gotta let Dayan play eventually.

Trading Carlos may be what's best for this team.Odds are that Pierre won't be back next year. That's the time to try Viciedo in left. Or, it may be best for the team to trade Viciedo. He has no position, and he's not going to DH unless the Sox solve the Dunn dilemma. Dunn may handcuff the Sox for some time to come.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 01:49 AM
Odds are that Pierre won't be back next year. That's the time to try Viciedo in left. Or, it may be best for the team to trade Viciedo. He has no position, and he's not going to DH unless the Sox solve the Dunn dilemma. Dunn may handcuff the Sox for some time to come.

Given Carlos' injury history, and his psychological issues, I think the organization may feel that Dayan is a better option.

I'd prefer to keep Carlos and just get rid of Pierre now, but that's not happening with the way he's playing.

Back to Carlos, the fact that he has a position and has established himself, you're probably guaranteed to get more for him than you will for Viciedo.

SoxNation05
07-24-2011, 01:49 AM
The best part of this thread is the tweet that says Viciedo was replaced by "Gookie Dawkins."

Boondock Saint
07-24-2011, 01:53 AM
I'm stunned that people would be willing to get rid of Quentin for a completely unproven commodity.

You can't compare it to the Beckham situation. Beckham can play defense. Viciedo apparently cannot. He would be a downgrade from TCQ defensively and there's no guarantee he'd be even as good offensively. The Viciedo situation is starting to remind me of an NFL backup quarterback. Everybody wants him to take over until he actually gets the job.

And you absolutely cannot put Pierre in center; his arm is inadequate in left, it would be a glaring deficiency in center.

I don't know why he has to replace Quentin. Rios and Dunn have sucked offensively. Either one of them will be doing just as much for the team on the bench as they are at the plate.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2011, 02:07 AM
I don't know why he has to replace Quentin. Rios and Dunn have sucked offensively. Either one of them will be doing just as much for the team on the bench as they are at the plate.Really? You want Dayan Viciedo in center? Because this isn't fantasy baseball where players only play offense. Rios plays half the game in center. And you think the Sox are just going to eat the $53 million or whatever it is that Dunn is going to make?

Boondock Saint
07-24-2011, 02:22 AM
Really? You want Dayan Viciedo in center? Because this isn't fantasy baseball where players only play offense. Rios plays half the game in center. And you think the Sox are just going to eat the $53 million or whatever it is that Dunn is going to make?

That's not what I meant. Pierre can play CF on the days Viciedo plays LF or RF (and I know that Pierre isn't a good CF, but we need to score runs right now), and Viciedo can replace Dunn as the DH on other days. And I'm not suggesting that Dunn just sit on the bench for the next few years. This team needs to change right now, and Dunn seemingly isn't turning things around this year.

It bothers me to no end that Ozzie can find 359 AB's for Mark Kotsay, but he doesn't see a place for Viciedo in this lineup full of black holes.

Nellie_Fox
07-24-2011, 02:34 AM
...(and I know that Pierre isn't a good CF, but we need to score runs right now)...And how many of those runs will be given back by runners taking an extra base with impunity? It's not even that Pierre has a below-average throwing arm, it's that he has a terrible throwing arm. Hell, they go to third on him now, and he's throwing from left! You just can't put him in center except in dire emergencies.

Boondock Saint
07-24-2011, 02:36 AM
And how many of those runs will be given back by runners taking an extra base with impunity? It's not even that Pierre has a below-average throwing arm, it's that he has a terrible throwing arm. Hell, they go to third on him now, and he's throwing from left! You just can't put him in center except in dire emergencies.

The no offense, all defense approach has gotten us nowhere through 99 games this year. It's well past time to try something different.

captain54
07-24-2011, 03:15 AM
. Dunn may handcuff the Sox for some time to come.

This is true.... Viciedo isn't replacing Rios. Unfortunately, anyone beside Rios is a total butcher out there in CF. The Sox are in no position to be giving away outs and extra bases. You could spell Dunn at DH... even if Viciedo completely replaced Dunne as DH for the remainder of the year, the Sox are still screwed because now there's $12M a year sitting on the bench. Which really does them absolutely no good in so many ways. Dunn's value decreases to any takers the more he fails, but decreases even more if he's riding the pine.

Is replacing Dunn with Viciedo the difference between 4 1/2 games out in 3rd place, and being in 4 1/2 games in front in first? There's really no way to guarantee that scenario, especially with all the other black holes in the lineup.

wassagstdu
07-24-2011, 08:14 AM
The no offense, all defense approach has gotten us nowhere through 99 games this year. It's well past time to try something different.

Does anyone actually think this is a good defensive team? Only White Sox fans could think that. No wait -- fielding percentage. I guess I am wrong, I was just going by what I see day in and day out.

dickallen15
07-24-2011, 08:28 AM
If he replaces Q on the roster he can.

The Sox are paying the same Viciedo regardless of whether they call him up or not.

dickallen15
07-24-2011, 08:36 AM
Viciedo doesn't make much of a difference in this offense unless he's replacing Dunn or Rios in the lineup (and even then it's not guaranteed he'd be better than what the other two will be down the stretch). Obviously, he can't replace Rios and it's doubtful he's replacing Dunn.
Ranger you said on your show a couple months ago that one player wouldn't make a difference in an offense. With that said, your stance would have to be the Sox offense would really be no different if Dunn had performed up to expectations, because its only one player.

As far as Viciedo. I say for the next 2 months, move him back to 3B. I know, all the guys who cry about defense all the time will be up in arms, but that approach isn't working. If they don't want to bite the bullet and sit high priced players who hit like pitchers, put Viciedo at 3B or have him play LF and RF and DH and rotate some of these guys out of the line up. You can still get Viciedo in the line up every day and not bench another player.

kufram
07-24-2011, 08:39 AM
We have a very good infield except for a shortstop that has a tendency to have the odd mental lapse but he also has the talent to make the odd spectacular play. We have a great defensive right side of the infield. We even have very good infield replacements in Teahen and Omar. Teahen is the biggest surprise defensively.

AJ is a good defensive catcher and that does not mean he can throw out runners... it takes 3 people to throw out runners... it means the pitchers can throw sliders in the dirt when they need to with men on base and count on him to stop it usually.

We do not have great outfielders but we do have outfielders that don't cost us a lot of runs although, admittedly, they did cost a few games at the beginning of the year. TCQ doesn't look good but catches most of the catchables. Rios is not on top of his game but still better than what we've had for a while. Juan knows how to do the most within his limitations.

So, yes, we have a good defense.... maybe not great but pitchers like MB do not do well without good defense.

Viva Medias B's
07-24-2011, 08:50 AM
Just call him up; what have we got to lose?

Dan H
07-24-2011, 09:54 AM
I agree with the many here. We know Viciedo is no savior. It's just that this offense will doom this team and has already doomed this team. The KC series is a case in point. The pitching gives up 8 runs. A good offensive club wins all three games or at least takes two of three. Instead the Sox lose two of three and actually were lucky to win that one.

If not Viciedo, it has to be somebody else. But enough of the denial already. This team is going to finish below .500 with this offense. We've waited for Dunn and Rios. We should be done waiting.

SI1020
07-24-2011, 09:57 AM
I agree with the many here. We know Viciedo is no savior. It's just that this offense will doom this team and has already doomed this team. The KC series is a case in point. The pitching gives up 8 runs. A good offensive club wins all three games or at least takes two of three. Instead the Sox lose two of three and actually were lucky to win that one.

If not Viciedo, it has to be somebody else. But enough of the denial already. This team is going to finish below .500 with this offense. We've waited for Dunn and Rios. We should be done waiting. Sometimes you've got to bite the bullet and admit something or someone is not working out. If not for the salary structure of MLB both of these guys would have been gone a long time ago. They're a double dose of pure misery this year.

SOXSINCE'70
07-24-2011, 09:57 AM
We've waited for Dunn and Rios. We should be done waiting.

The Sox should have been done waiting on them a long time ago.:angry:

kufram
07-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Ozzie said what he did for Viciedo's ears, in my opinion, not for ours. The clamor for Viciedo to come to the rescue will be matched by the clamor for him to be gone if he proves to be unable to tear up the majors like he has the minor league pitching. There is a difference.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen Viciedo up as a straight replacement for Dunn as a short term DH when he was hottest and Dunn was nottest. Dunn could have gone on the DL for a few games. There are probably reasons for that not happening that I am unaware of, but it is never the answer to just wish Dunn and Rios gone. Not only isn't it going to happen but it CAN'T really happen. They are under contract and who is going to take them at the moment anyway?

You can cry all you want about the deals that brought them here but the fact is they are here and we need them to produce if only a fraction of what they are capable of. There is a dogfight to take place in the AL Central over the next few weeks and we are part of it. Cleveland won about 10 games with their last at bat, I believe. Detroit has the best pitcher in baseball as a stopper. We have a sputtering offense that I'm pretty sure the other teams are worried is going to wake up sometime.

spawn
07-24-2011, 10:52 AM
You mean, like how he was actually right?

I think your point was drowned out by those clamoring for Viciedo to be brought up, but not by me. :D:

hawkjt
07-24-2011, 11:14 AM
Ozzie said what he did for Viciedo's ears, in my opinion, not for ours. The clamor for Viciedo to come to the rescue will be matched by the clamor for him to be gone if he proves to be unable to tear up the majors like he has the minor league pitching. There is a difference.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen Viciedo up as a straight replacement for Dunn as a short term DH when he was hottest and Dunn was nottest. Dunn could have gone on the DL for a few games. There are probably reasons for that not happening that I am unaware of, but it is never the answer to just wish Dunn and Rios gone. Not only isn't it going to happen but it CAN'T really happen. They are under contract and who is going to take them at the moment anyway?

You can cry all you want about the deals that brought them here but the fact is they are here and we need them to produce if only a fraction of what they are capable of. There is a dogfight to take place in the AL Central over the next few weeks and we are part of it. Cleveland won about 10 games with their last at bat, I believe. Detroit has the best pitcher in baseball as a stopper. We have a sputtering offense that I'm pretty sure the other teams are worried is going to wake up sometime.


I agree. This is now a sprint to the end,and each game is big. The next 4 games are huge,with the following 7 also big...a homestand that must be won convincingly...it will not matter after that otherwise.

I am in the school of bringing up Dayan for Omar or Lilly. Either release Omar or send Lilly down. He can come back up in a month.
Play Viciedo in left vs righties,and at DH vs lefties,period. Sit Rios til the 7th inning vs righties and gamble with Pierre in center. When Carlos DH's, then put Dayan in right...get him in the game. As for Juan in center,hey,kotsay was in center for the brewers last nite...the much maligned Kotsay! How many guys has Rios really stopped from running this year? Maybe a half dozen over 100 games. Has not thrown anyone out. Juan can run...gamble with it for the handfull of games it would be.
If Juan cools off, then sit him and put Rios in.
DO SOMETHING!!

As for Ozzies comments,as has been said...just pre-emptive pressure reduction on Dayan. Fans will want him to be babe ruth...he aint.

dickallen15
07-24-2011, 11:15 AM
Ozzie said what he did for Viciedo's ears, in my opinion, not for ours. The clamor for Viciedo to come to the rescue will be matched by the clamor for him to be gone if he proves to be unable to tear up the majors like he has the minor league pitching. There is a difference.

I, personally, would have liked to have seen Viciedo up as a straight replacement for Dunn as a short term DH when he was hottest and Dunn was nottest. Dunn could have gone on the DL for a few games. There are probably reasons for that not happening that I am unaware of, but it is never the answer to just wish Dunn and Rios gone. Not only isn't it going to happen but it CAN'T really happen. They are under contract and who is going to take them at the moment anyway?

You can cry all you want about the deals that brought them here but the fact is they are here and we need them to produce if only a fraction of what they are capable of. There is a dogfight to take place in the AL Central over the next few weeks and we are part of it. Cleveland won about 10 games with their last at bat, I believe. Detroit has the best pitcher in baseball as a stopper. We have a sputtering offense that I'm pretty sure the other teams are worried is going to wake up sometime.

I agree. This was all about trying to take some of the big expectations and pressure off Viciedo should he come up than his abiilty to hit. He's still only 21 or 22. He's going to struggle at times. The offense has been so bad, people see Viciedo dominating AAA, they may expect him to be Frank Thomas in his prime immediately. Lets hope he turns into a better defensive Carlos Lee.

DirtySox
07-24-2011, 11:35 AM
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/244888190/mug_normal.jpg
MDGonzales (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales) Mark Gonzales
Viciedo hurt thumb, was pulled out of Sat's game, not believed to be broken
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales/status/95154674184896513) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

Red Barchetta
07-24-2011, 11:43 AM
The entire organization, from JR down to the coaching staff, is hoping every day that Rios and Dunn finally show up and contribute on a regular basis so that they can salvage the season. The entire team is trying to pick up the slack. Some are succeeding and some are not.

Tragg
07-24-2011, 11:48 AM
That Ozzie bond with young players continues to strengthen.

Call Dayan up and see what he can do...or trade him. Don't chase more mediocre veterans to make Ozzie happy. Get a bat in here and see what the team can do.

#1swisher
07-24-2011, 11:51 AM
MDGonzales

Viciedo hurt thumb, was pulled out of Sat's game, not believed to be
broken

balke
07-24-2011, 12:05 PM
I'm stunned that people would be willing to get rid of Quentin for a completely unproven commodity.

Willing is probably the perfect word. I am of the belief that the Sox have one position that is upgradeable - and that is 3B.

You could look at the Sox surplus spots on this team - and say starting pitcher and outfielder.

Quentin doesn't actually make much money. There might be a way to unload a bad contract (Teahan? Pierre? Peavy? Rios?), shed Edwin's salary, and receive a good minor leaguer in return.

The way they played so far this year... bad. I kinda gave up on the season during that Twins series before the break. How can they compete? When they officially give up - and think about next year Quentin will be a trade chip.

Lip Man 1
07-24-2011, 12:19 PM
Dayan's injury is not considered serious according to the newspapers today, basically day to day.

Lip

#1swisher
07-24-2011, 12:30 PM
CSNChi_Beatnk (http://twitter.com/?lang=en&logged_out=1#%21/CSNChi_Beatnik)

Brett Ballantini tweets plenty on Ozzie and Dayan.

soxfan43
07-24-2011, 03:04 PM
All this talk on calling Viciedo up in this thread and only like one post on how to actually make that happen. There is not an easy way to get him up here and on the 25 man roster. As I see it, here are the options:

- Send Lillibridge down. I believe he's out of options so he'd have to go through waivers, and I would guess he would get claimed by someone. So you risk losing him, I know he's not a starter or anything but he's a solid utility guy that you have under control for a few more years.

- Release Omar. Makes some sense to me, but it does leave you exposed at SS if Alexei goes down. Beckham and Lillibridge haven't played there in quite a while and there's really no one in the minors ready to step in. I know some people talk about how he's a future HOFer and you shouldn't treat him bad by releasing him mid season, but if they did it with Fisk, then they can do it with Omar.

- Release or trade Teahan. You'd have to eat a ton of money to trade him or just release him, so that's not happening.

- Send Morel down and plug Teahan/Omar in at 3rd. I like Morel a lot as a prospect but his bat just isn't getting it done right now. If Dunn and Rios were performing, you can live with it for now, but with the offense struggling it may be time to send him down.

- Go a pitcher short. Don't see that happening.

- Trade Quentin. While plugging Viciedo in for Quentin now is kind of a wash at best for the offense, it does save you some cash and you'd get some kind of decent return in a trade for Quentin. I think this will happen in the offseason but not before July 31.

So to the best of my knowledge, those are the only ways to get Viciedo up there that make sesne. I vote for sending Morel down now. Omar and Teahan can handle the position for now and then you can plug Viciedo in at DH or RF or even 1B at times.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 06:28 PM
MDGonzales

Viciedo hurt thumb, was pulled out of Sat's game, not believed to be
broken

Dayan's injury is not considered serious according to the newspapers today, basically day to day.

Lip

I'd have to say Ozzie's lucky.

Could you imagine the **** storm if Dayan had broken his thumb while he was playing in the minors about a month longer than he should have?

Lip Man 1
07-24-2011, 08:03 PM
Ozzie (again) on Dayan "where do I play him..."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0725-bits-white-sox-indians-ch20110725,0,1934675.story

Lip

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 08:09 PM
Ozzie (again) on Dayan "where do I play him..."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/ct-spt-0725-bits-white-sox-indians-ch20110725,0,1934675.story

Lip

"Are people in Chicago getting tired about talking about Viciedo?"

No, Ozzie, we're tired of watching this lifeless offense.

"We are going to keep this recording about Viciedo for people in Chicago because sooner or later, they are going to hate Viciedo at least for a week and talk about how bad Viciedo is and how crazy we are to bring this guy from Cuba."

I'm sure that does wonders for Dayan's confidence.

spawn
07-24-2011, 08:26 PM
I'm sure that does wonders for Dayan's confidence.
Well, he's right. The first prolonged bad stretch offensively for Viciedo, and people will be calling for his head and saying he either sucks, was brought up too soon, or Walker broke him.

Noneck
07-24-2011, 09:06 PM
If Viciedo is brought up now and a trade has not been made, a position player will most likely be deleted from the roster. We all know it wont be Dunn, Rios or Teahen. So that leaves Omar, Lillibridge (both with no options) and Morel. It has been brought up that this situation is hurting Viciedos confidence, how will dropping Morel at this stage of season affect his confidence?

hawkjt
07-24-2011, 09:21 PM
With the injury to Dayan, the whole discussion is moot.
By the time he is back and hitting, anything could have happened.
Sox gotta dance with who brung'em.

whitesoxfan
07-24-2011, 09:30 PM
If Viciedo is brought up now and a trade has not been made, a position player will most likely be deleted from the roster. We all know it wont be Dunn, Rios or Teahen. So that leaves Omar, Lillibridge (both with no options) and Morel. It has been brought up that this situation is hurting Viciedos confidence, how will dropping Morel at this stage of season affect his confidence?

At this point, who really cares? There are so many black holes with this lineup. It shouldn't be rocket science in terms of slotting Viciedo in for one of those anemic players.

Noneck
07-24-2011, 10:25 PM
At this point, who really cares? There are so many black holes with this lineup. It shouldn't be rocket science in terms of slotting Viciedo in for one of those anemic players.

Slotting maybe but cutting loose of who?

JB98
07-24-2011, 11:42 PM
Slotting maybe but cutting loose of who?

I'd send Morel down. He's got options left and he appears to have lost his job to Teahen anyway.

I don't see Viciedo as a savior, but it's hard for me to believe he couldn't help the club against LHP. Hitting lefties is a real weakness of this team.

Dibbs
07-25-2011, 02:13 AM
I'm about to give up on this team permanently. I can never remember hating a team a I root for. Uncle Jerry, please get rid of Ozzie and the entire staff. Time for Kenny to go too. It is almost as if Ozzie tries his hardest to shatter any confidence these young studs have. Maybe he has some deep rooted jealousy of these guys due to the fact that he was such a poor offensive player.

Nellie_Fox
07-25-2011, 02:34 AM
I'm about to give up on this team permanently. I can never remember hating a team a I root for. Uncle Jerry, please get rid of Ozzie and the entire staff. Time for Kenny to go too. It is almost as if Ozzie tries his hardest to shatter any confidence these young studs have. Maybe he has some deep rooted jealousy of these guys due to the fact that he was such a poor offensive player.Yeah. That's it.

SI1020
07-25-2011, 09:52 AM
Whatever it is and only Ozzie knows for sure, he seems to have no patience and support for his younger players.

sullythered
07-25-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm about to give up on this team permanently. I can never remember hating a team a I root for. Uncle Jerry, please get rid of Ozzie and the entire staff. Time for Kenny to go too. It is almost as if Ozzie tries his hardest to shatter any confidence these young studs have. Maybe he has some deep rooted jealousy of these guys due to the fact that he was such a poor offensive player.

:rolleyes:

Harry Chappas
07-25-2011, 12:16 PM
Well, he's right. The first prolonged bad stretch offensively for Viciedo, and people will be calling for his head and saying he either sucks, was brought up too soon, or Walker broke him.

So what? Call me crazy but maybe he ought to let that situation play out before he starts his negative prognostications. Is this in some bizarre way supposed to relieve the pressure to perform?

And to be honest, most casual Sox fans - if there is such a thing - probably don't care enough at this point to call for anyone's head and those that are still paying attention are intelligent enough to understand that Viciedo should not be viewed as a "savior." Thanks, but I think OG and Rongey have the "let's underestimate the intelligence of fans" thing pretty well covered.

doublem23
07-25-2011, 12:37 PM
And to be honest, most casual Sox fans - if there is such a thing - probably don't care enough at this point to call for anyone's head and those that are still paying attention are intelligent enough to understand that Viciedo should not be viewed as a "savior." Thanks, but I think OG and Rongey have the "let's underestimate the intelligence of fans" thing pretty well covered.

Yeah, I agree. Most Sox fans are smart enough to know what Viciedo is right now and what he could be. I mean, look at the rabid fan base BA had or the way people still sing and cheer for Beckham, despite the fact those guys have bombed or are bombing. People are willing to give kids a break because, well, they're kids.

Folks are booing Dunn because he's a 30-year-old veteran with a proven record who has been absolute **** for 4 months. The guy wasn't supposed to need a 4-month warm-up, he was supposed to be the middle-of-the-order power guy. Oh yeah, he's also making $12 million this season. And people booed Pierre earlier this year because he wasn't getting on base, was getting caught stealing when he did, and was dropping routine fly balls in left field to boot. He has picked up his play in the past 4-6 weeks and the boobirds have magically vanished.

I don't really have the energy (or really, interest in the 2011 Sox) to have a strong opinion any more on what they do with Dayan. I'd like to see him here just because I loved watching him bat during his short stint last year, but if they want to keep him in AAA for the rest of the year to delay his arb clock as much as possible, so be it. The Sox invested a lot of money in his development, so I don't blame them for wanting to maximize the return on that investment. I just think it's silly at this point to think the only reason we need to keep him in the minors is to shield him from failure. That's what baseball is most days. This isn't a Gordon Beckham rerun, who flew through the minors without ever missing a beat and now doesn't know how to pull himself out of a funk. Dayan had very real holes in his game when he first arrived and he's worked hard to correct a lot of them. He's 22 years old, that puts him developmentally at the AAA level and he's putting up solid numbers. He has earned the right to play in Chicago if that's what the Sox want to do with him.

hi im skot
07-25-2011, 12:42 PM
I'm late to the party, and there's a good chance that someone has already said something like this, but for all the dumb stuff that Guillen has done this season, I think this comment is smart.

If Guillen says that the Sox need Viciedo (or anyone else, for that matter), he's essentially saying he doesn't trust the current roster. No need to throw guys under the bus, especially when guys like Dunn, Rios and Beckham all realize they've been extreme disappointments this season.

He's showing some confidence in his guys, and whether it's warranted or not, he's saying the right things in public, at least.

JB98
07-25-2011, 01:47 PM
So what? Call me crazy but maybe he ought to let that situation play out before he starts his negative prognostications. Is this in some bizarre way supposed to relieve the pressure to perform?

And to be honest, most casual Sox fans - if there is such a thing - probably don't care enough at this point to call for anyone's head and those that are still paying attention are intelligent enough to understand that Viciedo should not be viewed as a "savior." Thanks, but I think OG and Rongey have the "let's underestimate the intelligence of fans" thing pretty well covered.

I hate to defend Rongey because I think he's been needlessly short with the fans this year, but yesterday he fielded a call from somebody who claimed Viciedo is the "next Thomas."

I like Viciedo and would like to see him get a shot, but calling him the "next Thomas" is about the most laughable assertion I've heard. If I was hosting a talk show, I'd probably shake my head with dismay if I had to listen to such nonsense.

doublem23
07-25-2011, 02:06 PM
I hate to defend Rongey because I think he's been needlessly short with the fans this year, but yesterday he fielded a call from somebody who claimed Viciedo is the "next Thomas."

I like Viciedo and would like to see him get a shot, but calling him the "next Thomas" is about the most laughable assertion I've heard. If I was hosting a talk show, I'd probably shake my head with dismay if I had to listen to such nonsense.

Yeah but I don't think that's the kind of thinking that most Sox fans, casual, bandwagon, or hardcore, have of Viciedo. That's just one of the lunatics that they have to cherry pick to put on the radio because that's the only way sports talk is even the slightest bit entertaining. You're not going to find someone with a well thought out, reasonable, and rational opinion of Viciedo calling into, let alone getting on the air, of any sports talk show.

Harry Chappas
07-25-2011, 03:25 PM
I hate to defend Rongey because I think he's been needlessly short with the fans this year, but yesterday he fielded a call from somebody who claimed Viciedo is the "next Thomas."

I like Viciedo and would like to see him get a shot, but calling him the "next Thomas" is about the most laughable assertion I've heard. If I was hosting a talk show, I'd probably shake my head with dismay if I had to listen to such nonsense.

I think fans that are of that opinion are the exception and not the rule. I certainly don't think anyone here would claim that he's the "next Thomas" although I don't know how you can shout down someone who argued that he could be the next Thomas. I think it would be both naive and premature, but no one really knows at this point what the Sox have in Viciedo. He's still only 22.

My bigger issue is with the general lack of respect that is sometimes shown to the Sox fanbase. Too much hyperbole and straw men when the resident "experts" start spewing crap about what the fans think or how they will respond. I know a decent amount of Sox fans and none of them sound anything like some of the mouth-breathers that seem to have no trouble getting on call-in shows.

Fisk Fan
07-25-2011, 03:33 PM
Yeah but I don't think that's the kind of thinking that most Sox fans, casual, bandwagon, or hardcore, have of Viciedo. That's just one of the lunatics that they have to cherry pick to put on the radio because that's the only way sports talk is even the slightest bit entertaining. You're not going to find someone with a well thought out, reasonable, and rational opinion of Viciedo calling into, let alone getting on the air, of any sports talk show.


That's on Page 1 of The Score broadcast handbook. Find the most outrageously asinine comment from a drunken idiot, and put him on the air. I swear most of those numbskull callers are Score employees....

hi im skot
07-25-2011, 03:34 PM
My bigger issue is with the general lack of respect that is sometimes shown to the Sox fanbase. Too much hyperbole and straw men when the resident "experts" start spewing crap about what the fans think or how they will respond. I know a decent amount of Sox fans and none of them sound anything like some of the mouth-breathers that seem to have no trouble getting on call-in shows.

Well, there's been no shortage of silly things said on this message board over the past few months.

I understand where the chip on the shoulder mentality comes from, but I think some Sox fans are guilty of taking it to extremes. Sometimes we're all guilty of stepping back and remembering baseball is a game that's supposed to be fun.

Harry Chappas
07-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Well, there's been no shortage of silly things said on this message board over the past few months.

I understand where the chip on the shoulder mentality comes from, but I think some Sox fans are guilty of taking it to extremes. Sometimes we're all guilty of stepping back and remembering baseball is a game that's supposed to be fun.

I think the extreme points of view tend to be magnified either because they are so idiotic they draw our attention or, as I sort of hinted at, sports call-in shows find them (accidentally or not) and give them a voice.

hi im skot
07-25-2011, 04:42 PM
I think the extreme points of view tend to be magnified either because they are so idiotic they draw our attention or, as I sort of hinted at, sports call-in shows find them (accidentally or not) and give them a voice.

Probably a good point. The hand-wringing this year has been grating, but I understand where it comes from.

We're all disappointed so far. Hopefully the Sox find a way to make September interesting.

Daver
07-25-2011, 04:52 PM
I'm about to give up on this team permanently. I can never remember hating a team a I root for. Uncle Jerry, please get rid of Ozzie and the entire staff. Time for Kenny to go too. It is almost as if Ozzie tries his hardest to shatter any confidence these young studs have. Maybe he has some deep rooted jealousy of these guys due to the fact that he was such a poor offensive player.
Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

captain54
07-25-2011, 05:18 PM
I think the extreme points of view tend to be magnified either because they are so idiotic they draw our attention or, as I sort of hinted at, sports call-in shows find them (accidentally or not) and give them a voice.

I think Rongey's show would be 200% more entertaining if he would really roast those most annoying and idiotic callers and say what he really thinks instead of putting on that snarky sort of attitude of his. I think the condesending stuff gets to be more annoying than the actual caller, which is why I have a hard time tuning in.

Harry Chappas
07-25-2011, 05:35 PM
I think Rongey's show would be 200% more entertaining if he would really roast those most annoying and idiotic callers and say what he really thinks instead of putting on that snarky sort of attitude of his. I think the condesending stuff gets to be more annoying than the actual caller, which is why I have a hard time tuning in.


I beat Rongey up pretty good here. I'm sure his job isn't an easy - especially this season, but I do have to wonder if the most outrageous calls aren't selected for entertainment sake. Or maybe I just give the Sox fan base too much credit and the bad calls are more representative than I want to believe them to be. But my anecdotal evidence based on an admittedly small sample size shows a pretty reasonable and intelligent fan base so I bristle when people suggest that we'll be calling for Viciedo's head should he come up and struggle.

captain54
07-25-2011, 07:06 PM
Or maybe I just give the Sox fan base too much credit and the bad calls are more representative than I want to believe them to be. .

I think there's gonna be the drunken, ignorant, belligerent fan scattered across every team, in every city, in every sport. Interesting how that type of fan is the most interested in expressing their opinion in a radio call in show.

sullythered
07-25-2011, 07:09 PM
I think there's gonna be the drunken, ignorant, belligerent fan scattered across every team, in every city, in every sport. Interesting how that type of fan is the most interested in expressing their opinion in a radio call in show.

Last summer I did a ton of work travel. Sports radio callers are idiots everywhere in America.

JB98
07-25-2011, 07:23 PM
I think fans that are of that opinion are the exception and not the rule. I certainly don't think anyone here would claim that he's the "next Thomas" although I don't know how you can shout down someone who argued that he could be the next Thomas. I think it would be both naive and premature, but no one really knows at this point what the Sox have in Viciedo. He's still only 22.

My bigger issue is with the general lack of respect that is sometimes shown to the Sox fanbase. Too much hyperbole and straw men when the resident "experts" start spewing crap about what the fans think or how they will respond. I know a decent amount of Sox fans and none of them sound anything like some of the mouth-breathers that seem to have no trouble getting on call-in shows.

I would shout it down by pointing out that Thomas had incredible plate discipline at a young age, and Viciedo has nothing of the sort. I think Viciedo has a shot to be a nice run producer, but I'd be shocked if he makes a Frank-like impact.

I don't disagree with your points about the Sox fan base being disrespected at times. But it's also true that a few idiots can spoil it for everybody.

sullythered
07-25-2011, 07:31 PM
I would shout it down by pointing out that Thomas had incredible plate discipline at a young age, and Viciedo has nothing of the sort. I think Viciedo has a shot to be a nice run producer, but I'd be shocked if he makes a Frank-like impact.


I think Carlos Lee is a very appropriate guy to hope Dayan can become, at least at the plate.

Comparison to Frank Thomas is completely unfair. Frank is one of the best hitters in the history of the game.

JB98
07-25-2011, 07:53 PM
I think Carlos Lee is a very appropriate guy to hope Dayan can become, at least at the plate.

Comparison to Frank Thomas is completely unfair. Frank is one of the best hitters in the history of the game.

If he produces like Lee, that would be nice.

balke
07-25-2011, 08:03 PM
If he produces like Lee, that would be nice.

Can't wait to trade him for Pods/Vizcaino.

Lip Man 1
07-25-2011, 11:40 PM
Balke:

They won a World Series because of it didn't they? That and the fact unloading his salary gave Kenny room to get Iguchi, A.J. and "El Duque..."

Lip

balke
07-25-2011, 11:57 PM
Balke:

They won a World Series because of it didn't they? That and the fact unloading his salary gave Kenny room to get Iguchi, A.J. and "El Duque..."

Lip


I know. Can't type Carlos Lee on the board without either saying fielding percentage is a useless stat - or something about this trade. Thought I'd get it out of the way.