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gosox41
07-22-2011, 05:03 PM
There's been a ton of alk around here about fans not being happy with this team.

Bottom line is we all want a winner and everything else matters less. Would we care if KW and Kenny got along if we were in first place by 5 games or who's son got the bigger pay out. Heck, there'd even be a lot less talk about Dunn's slump if this team was in first place by 5 games.

So that being said, let's say it's July 28th and the Sox are 3.5 games out and still 3-4 games below .500, do you want KW to get get younger and start trading off parts and building for next year? Would you fault him for giving up? And I'm talking of realistic trades, not "let's trade Rios and Dunn for Albert Puljos and then sign Puljos to a below market vaue contract...etc." We've seen the rumors. Danks, Quentin, Jackson, and Floyd all of have some value. Even Buehrle might garner some demand from the Cards.

Yes, you know where I'm going about this. No message boards in 1997 and the Sox were waiting for an early return from Ventura who you knew would be less then 100% at the time he came back (no one knew if he'd ever be the player he was.)

We saw all the PR back then. So here we are. Similar situation in terms of team performance (I thought the 1997 team should have been better and I was all in favor of the trade back then because I was so fed up with the performance.) Different world in terms of no star coming off the DL from major injury, message boards, twitter, and more knowledge among common fans on how teams are built due to this wonderful technology.

So write away, I'm curious to see how people would view a possible rebuilding under this realistc scenario described above. This may all be a moot point after this weekend if the Sox get swept in Cleveland.


Bob

guillensdisciple
07-22-2011, 05:13 PM
First of all, KW and Kenny have to resolve the talking amongst themselves issue might create a problem with higher ups.

On a more serious note, yes it would be a smarter decision to sell for the exact reasons you mentioned. The White Sox do have some decent pieces in place that would allow for a rebuilding of this team. The White Sox should focus on building an offense through youth, and while this seems counter productive now, it can be accomplished by trading away the wealth of pitchers you have built up. I am not saying all of them, but we can legitimately trade the big boys like Danks and Mark while receiving huge compensation for them. We might not get top 10 quality talent but we can get really good return top 30 from the draft type of return.

Load up your lineup that way, try to get rid of the garbage you have already and replace it with those guys. Your payroll will decrease dramatically and you'll apply your pitching staff through free agency over the years. A rebuilding process will take time anyway, and the White Sox will salvage one or two pitchers from their current order and build around them. Also, Sale will convert and our bullpen is fairly set so the Sox will not have to worry about covering all of their bases there.

Make smart pitching decisions as free agent acquisitions and build up your farm system full of serviceable hitters and there ya go. We'll have to go through some ****ty baseball for a bit but we'll get there and then we can really trade for the big guys or play against the big guys.

daveeym
07-22-2011, 05:21 PM
There's been a ton of alk around here about fans not being happy with this team.

Bottom line is we all want a winner and everything else matters less. Would we care if KW and Kenny got along if we were in first place by 5 games or who's son got the bigger pay out. Heck, there'd even be a lot less talk about Dunn's slump if this team was in first place by 5 games.

So that being said, let's say it's July 28th and the Sox are 3.5 games out and still 3-4 games below .500, do you want KW to get get younger and start trading off parts and building for next year? Would you fault him for giving up? And I'm talking of realistic trades, not "let's trade Rios and Dunn for Albert Puljos and then sign Puljos to a below market vaue contract...etc." We've seen the rumors. Danks, Quentin, Jackson, and Floyd all of have some value. Even Buehrle might garner some demand from the Cards.

Yes, you know where I'm going about this. No message boards in 1997 and the Sox were waiting for an early return from Ventura who you knew would be less then 100% at the time he came back (no one knew if he'd ever be the player he was.)

We saw all the PR back then. So here we are. Similar situation in terms of team performance (I thought the 1997 team should have been better and I was all in favor of the trade back then because I was so fed up with the performance.) Different world in terms of no star coming off the DL from major injury, message boards, twitter, and more knowledge among common fans on how teams are built due to this wonderful technology.

So write away, I'm curious to see how people would view a possible rebuilding under this realistc scenario described above. This may all be a moot point after this weekend if the Sox get swept in Cleveland.


Bob

This explains a lot. This team is definitely schizo.

soltrain21
07-22-2011, 05:48 PM
First of all, KW and Kenny have to resolve the talking amongst themselves issue might create a problem with higher ups.

On a more serious note, yes it would be a smarter decision to sell for the exact reasons you mentioned. The White Sox do have some decent pieces in place that would allow for a rebuilding of this team. The White Sox should focus on building an offense through youth, and while this seems counter productive now, it can be accomplished by trading away the wealth of pitchers you have built up. I am not saying all of them, but we can legitimately trade the big boys like Danks and Mark while receiving huge compensation for them. We might not get top 10 quality talent but we can get really good return top 30 from the draft type of return.

Load up your lineup that way, try to get rid of the garbage you have already and replace it with those guys. Your payroll will decrease dramatically and you'll apply your pitching staff through free agency over the years. A rebuilding process will take time anyway, and the White Sox will salvage one or two pitchers from their current order and build around them. Also, Sale will convert and our bullpen is fairly set so the Sox will not have to worry about covering all of their bases there.

Make smart pitching decisions as free agent acquisitions and build up your farm system full of serviceable hitters and there ya go. We'll have to go through some ****ty baseball for a bit but we'll get there and then we can really trade for the big guys or play against the big guys.

We have a wealth of pitching? Who do you plan on replacing Danks or Mark with? We have anything but a wealth of pitching.

That's what having a complete horse**** minor league system brings you. Nothing.

gobears1987
07-22-2011, 06:12 PM
A team cannot go into rebuilding when its farm system is pure ****. Kenny Williams has killed the farm system. You can trade away the veterans, but you don't have anything to build around.

Daver
07-22-2011, 06:18 PM
A team cannot go into rebuilding when its farm system is pure ****. Kenny Williams has killed the farm system. You can trade away the veterans, but you don't have anything to build around.

Kenny Williams left the position of minor league director over ten years ago.

Crestani
07-22-2011, 06:25 PM
If we could get KW to fire Kenny, we may be on to something..!!

guillensdisciple
07-22-2011, 06:27 PM
We have a wealth of pitching? Who do you plan on replacing Danks or Mark with? We have anything but a wealth of pitching.

That's what having a complete horse**** minor league system brings you. Nothing.


The point is you have to fix the minor league problem by acquiring minor league talent. Dig into the crappy minor league system and absorb the scars from losing those two for talent in your line up. THe fact is we have problems with our hitters and the only way to solve that is by acquiring talent not by throwing money at the problem. We can't build around a core of pitchers because we have a solid rotation set up, whereas our offense has absolutely nothing. Find the core and build around it.

The fact is that you can trade some of what you have for maybe 4 or 5 solid prospects down the line. It wlll take a bit, but the horrid idea of drafting high potential athletic guys instead of well rounded baseball players is far too imbedded in this system. I don't know how many times we have to draft a football reject and recognize that it won't work just because they're big and strong.

Draft smart, get some youth, absorb the blows that will happen when you get rid of some of the players you have and pray that things work out. Potential is we are ****ed for a while or short term- either way we are delaying the inevitable. You tell me how this team will all of a sudden become the best when it is capped financially and seemingly stuck in terms of capability. IT will blow up and the question is do you let it without gaining any kind of return for it or do you just keep on living the disillusioned dream and point to the payroll as the reason why your team will do well.

The Cubs did that and look where they are now. They never gave in, never traded, kept on lying to themselves and boom now they are lacking a decent core or anything for that matter. The White Sox are looking down that road in 2 years.

central44
07-22-2011, 06:31 PM
I'm not totally against a rebuild, but i'm not convinced that it's time to do so, either. I would rather the Sox hire a new manager who might be able to light a fire under this team.

To me, the most frustrating thing about this team is the apathetic play and poor approach to hitting. The Sox have a very good pitching staff and that is essential to being a contending ballclub--look at the 2010 Giants. That team had pitching but was hardly an offensive juggernaut. Obviously these Sox don't have THAT kind of pitching staff, but if the guys on offense play like they're capable of (a stretch, I know, but I don't know why it should be that way) then they shouldn't need to.

I don't know. I see a lot of talent on this team. I see a pitching staff that needs to be perfect every night (and does a damn good job, considering). But the guys on offense don't play like they expect to win every night. It's almost like they play to get the game over with so they can go home, or do whatever else.

I blame the manager for that. Maybe these guys all have lost their talent, simultaneously. Who knows? But i'd rather try the simple fix that might work first, and then launch the years-long rebuilding process. Especially considering that this management doesn't appear to know how to run a minor league system. Rebuilding seems like it could be an ugly, drawn-out process.

guillensdisciple
07-22-2011, 06:36 PM
I'm not totally against a rebuild, but i'm not convinced that it's time to do so, either. I would rather the Sox hire a new manager who might be able to light a fire under this team.

To me, the most frustrating thing about this team is the apathetic play and poor approach to hitting. The Sox have a very good pitching staff and that is essential to being a contending ballclub--look at the 2010 Giants. That team had pitching but was hardly an offensive juggernaut. Obviously these Sox don't have THAT kind of pitching staff, but if the guys on offense play like they're capable of (a stretch, I know, but I don't know why it should be that way) then they shouldn't need to.

I don't know. I see a lot of talent on this team. I see a pitching staff that needs to be perfect every night (and does a damn good job, considering). But the guys on offense don't play like they expect to win every night. It's almost like they play to get the game over with so they can go home, or do whatever else.

I blame the manager for that. Maybe these guys all have lost their talent, simultaneously. Who knows? But i'd rather try the simple fix that might work first, and then launch the years-long rebuilding process. Especially considering that this management doesn't appear to know how to run a minor league system. Rebuilding seems like it could be an ugly, drawn-out process.

There is a vast difference between the White Sox pitching staff and the Giants staff. The Giants are filled with aces and 2 pitchers, the White Sox have two 2 pitchers, a 3 and a 4 and 5 on a solid rotation. We do not have dominating pitchers that will blow teams away and can truly cement themselves as aces in the bigs. It's a decent squad that would be benefited by an addition of an ace and that is why I hope Sale can come back as a starter because he does have the stuff and he used to be dominant. My belief is that each squad has to have one ace to be successful.

The rotation is not the problem obviously, but even if the hitting performed I believe we would be looking at playoff problems because none of these guys fare particularly well against aces from other teams. We are not the Twins half-assed pitching staff but we're not the Phillies, Rangers, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, or Rays for that matter and that won't cut it if we ever made it to the playoffs. Now, our problems with hitting are so prevalent that we are forced to excuse the fact that our pitching staff is really above average but not anything to blow our horns about.

SoxSpeed22
07-22-2011, 06:43 PM
Sale and Santos are the only legit building blocks on this team. Viciedo could be one, but who knows. A rebuild effort will take quite a few last place finishes. But I could live with it, instead of seeing that than the same things over the last few years. I think I've got time.

Daver
07-22-2011, 06:49 PM
Sale and Santos are the only legit building blocks on this team. Viciedo could be one, but who knows. A rebuild effort will take quite a few last place finishes. But I could live with it, instead of seeing that than the same things over the last few years. I think I've got time.


You can't rebuild around a DH and a couple relief pitchers, and based on what I have seen of Chris Sale this season I have no interest in ever seeing him start.

guillensdisciple
07-22-2011, 06:54 PM
You can't rebuild around a DH and a couple relief pitchers, and based on what I have seen of Chris Sale this season I have no interest in ever seeing him start.

He still has tremendous stuff and succeeded starting in college. I know college is not a big deal in comparison but a chance should be given.

wassagstdu
07-22-2011, 07:04 PM
If you want to build a team via free agency or trading for veterans, it is not enough to be able to come up with $125MM. You have to have deep enough pockets to be able to eat $56MM contracts that go bad. Not very many teams can afford that and the Sox are not one of them. For the others, and the Sox, there is no alternative to a first rate minor league system. If they can, the Sox should liquidate every asset they have to restock their pipeline with real talent. Frankly I would not trust Williams to do that.

Daver
07-22-2011, 07:20 PM
He still has tremendous stuff and succeeded starting in college. I know college is not a big deal in comparison but a chance should be given.

He struggles to have a 1-2-3 inning as a reliever, as a starter that would be compounded to never seeing the fifth inning. I won't even bring up the fact that he does not pitch to the teams defensive strength, and it is probably to late for Kirk Champion to turn him around as a project.

Daver
07-22-2011, 07:25 PM
If you want to build a team via free agency or trading for veterans, it is not enough to be able to come up with $125MM. You have to have deep enough pockets to be able to eat $56MM contracts that go bad. Not very many teams can afford that and the Sox are not one of them. For the others, and the Sox, there is no alternative to a first rate minor league system. If they can, the Sox should liquidate every asset they have to restock their pipeline with real talent. Frankly I would not trust Williams to do that.

Kenny Williams is not the minor league talent director, nor is he in charge of the scouting dept. so I fail to see your point in bringing him into this.

gosox41
07-23-2011, 12:27 AM
There is a vast difference between the White Sox pitching staff and the Giants staff. The Giants are filled with aces and 2 pitchers, the White Sox have two 2 pitchers, a 3 and a 4 and 5 on a solid rotation. We do not have dominating pitchers that will blow teams away and can truly cement themselves as aces in the bigs. It's a decent squad that would be benefited by an addition of an ace and that is why I hope Sale can come back as a starter because he does have the stuff and he used to be dominant. My belief is that each squad has to have one ace to be successful.

The rotation is not the problem obviously, but even if the hitting performed I believe we would be looking at playoff problems because none of these guys fare particularly well against aces from other teams. We are not the Twins half-assed pitching staff but we're not the Phillies, Rangers, Angels, Yankees, Red Sox, or Rays for that matter and that won't cut it if we ever made it to the playoffs. Now, our problems with hitting are so prevalent that we are forced to excuse the fact that our pitching staff is really above average but not anything to blow our horns about.


A fact I heard right after the All Star break is the Sox are 5 games above .500 against teams with better then .500 records and 8 games below against teams with below .500 records.

We swept the Red Sox earlier, held our own against Texas and LAA, and the Rays.

The Sox are 4-3 after the break. And of those 7 games are 3-1 against teams above .500 and 1-2 against teams below. We've hit Carmona well, held our own against a more dominant Verlander but let the likes of Bruce Chen make us look like fools.

It is perplexing. Maybe there is a motivation problem on this team.


Bob

gosox41
07-23-2011, 12:31 AM
Kenny Williams is not the minor league talent director, nor is he in charge of the scouting dept. so I fail to see your point in bringing him into this.


Isn't he their boss? Ultimately KW is in charge of player personnel, either directly (when he's trading minor league talent like Richard and Hudson away) or indirectly when the team makes a draft pick.



Bob

Lip Man 1
07-23-2011, 12:44 PM
Kenny was very involved in the draft based on the reality TV show the Sox had on the MLB Network last year.

Lip

Gavin
07-23-2011, 01:12 PM
Kenny Williams left the position of minor league director over ten years ago.

Guess the GM of the team isn't responsible for the players signed, huh. Thanks for the protip.

billcissell
07-23-2011, 03:37 PM
"It is perplexing. Maybe there is a motivation problem on this team."

I agree. I think this team definitely has a motivation problem.

They regularly come out and play flat. From what I can see, there is little life or spirit in the dugout. We don't seem to have a live wire, rah rah guy to get us going. I know it's a long season, so it may be hard to be up for every game. But this team doesn't seem to get up for any game.

And how often have we come back from being down a few runs in the late innings? It just seems like this is a lifeless team that rolls over when they're down by a few.

I blame that on manager and coaching staff.

captain54
07-23-2011, 07:00 PM
Kenny was very involved in the draft based on the reality TV show the Sox had on the MLB Network last year.

Lip

Also noted in the Sox MLB reality show was Reinsdorf being involved in the signing of Edwin Jackson, and we've been told all along that JR doesn't interfere with KW, just lets him do his job.

Lip Man 1
07-23-2011, 10:48 PM
I'm hearing from sources that JR is very involved in the draft including giving opinions of who to select based on signability and overall cost.

That would make for an awkward situation for Kenny and the scouting director that's for sure.

Lip

Noneck
07-23-2011, 11:27 PM
Also noted in the Sox MLB reality show was Reinsdorf being involved in the signing of Edwin Jackson, and we've been told all along that JR doesn't interfere with KW, just lets him do his job.

I'm hearing from sources that JR is very involved in the draft including giving opinions of who to select based on signability and overall cost.

That would make for an awkward situation for Kenny and the scouting director that's for sure.

Lip


These are reasons, I can never blame Williams for the moves the team makes. We have no idea whose move it really was. As time goes on we are hearing Reinsdorf is a lot more involved in day to day operations than anyone believed he was.