PDA

View Full Version : Summing Up The Case


Lip Man 1
07-20-2011, 11:35 PM
I sent this note tonight to some of my friends in the organization. I just wanted to share my thoughts right now with where the Sox organization stands. I post it here as well for any comments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not going to come down that hard on Omar’s mental blunder on the bases tonight, bad as it was, because in his case, that’s probably happened maybe three times in his entire career, however it is emblematic of what is wrong with this team and this organization right now.

One word describes it…accountability.

There simply isn’t much (if any.)

Players screw up on the field mentally (nothing happens)…
Players can’t execute fundamentals and lose games (nothing happens)…
Ozzie goes off and insults Sox fans (nothing happens)…
Coaches, right or wrong, can’t seem to get through to players (nothing happens)…
Kenny goes off in a public spat with Ozzie over his sons more than once (nothing happens)…

And it’s not just now, I remember Manager Gandhi (Jerry Manuel) swearing to the mainstream media he was going to bench Carlos Lee after Lee for the third time in two seasons tried to steal 3rd base with the tying run at the plate. (Naturally he was thrown out.) Manuel DID bench Lee…for all of one game.

If there are no real consequences when something happens why should anybody really try to change?

This season alone two incidents come immediately to mind. Remember when Ramirez was told by Jeff Cox to be careful he wasn’t doubled up at 3rd base? And then promptly was?? I was told by someone who covers the Sox that the coaching staff was upset over that for a week…did anything happen?

Rios numerous times (as posted by fans here at WSI) has loafed on the bases, running to balls etc. Ozzie benched him for all of one game.

It’s just a never ending cycle.

I was told that accidentally a Chicago TV camera crew caught JR the week before the All Star break, upset on the field about the performance of his team (I wonder if they ever aired that??). Well JR can make changes to “change the culture” of his front office and his team if he wishes. Ultimately it’s his call.

I’m not a hypocrite. I said back in May, changes, and drastic changes, needed to be made (and should have been made years ago)…I stand by that feeling.

Until someone is told to “produce or else,” until players are put on notice, until the organization stops settling for mediocrity in the here and now (despite whatever past accomplishments have occurred) you are going to get more of the same and what Sox fans have been seeing on a regular basis since 2007. It’s not going to change on its own, someone has to start forcing the issue at whatever cost.

Lip

Noneck
07-20-2011, 11:44 PM
There is only one person that can demand and force that accountability is enforced. If accountability is the problem here, there is only one man at fault.

kevingrt
07-20-2011, 11:46 PM
I sent this note tonight to some of my friends in the organization. I just wanted to share my thoughts right now with where the Sox organization stands. I post it here as well for any comments.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I’m not going to come down that hard on Omar’s mental blunder on the bases tonight, bad as it was, because in his case, that’s probably happened maybe three times in his entire career, however it is emblematic of what is wrong with this team and this organization right now.
One word describes it…accountability.
There simply isn’t much (if any.)
Players screw up on the field mentally (nothing happens)…
Players can’t execute fundamentals and lose games (nothing happens)…
Ozzie goes off and insults Sox fans (nothing happens)…
Coaches, right or wrong, can’t seem to get through to players (nothing happens)…
Kenny goes off in a public spat with Ozzie over his sons more than once (nothing happens)…

And it’s not just now, I remember Manager Gandhi (Jerry Manuel) swearing to the mainstream media he was going to bench Carlos Lee after Lee for the third time in two seasons tried to steal 3rd base with the tying run at the plate. (Naturally he was thrown out.) Manuel DID bench Lee…for all of one game.

If there are no real consequences when something happens why should anybody really try to change?

This season alone two incidents come immediately to mind. Remember when Ramirez was told by Jeff Cox to be careful he wasn’t doubled up at 3rd base? And then promptly was?? I was told by someone who covers the Sox that the coaching staff was upset over that for a week…did anything happen?

Rios numerous times (as posted by fans here at WSI) has loafed on the bases, running to balls etc. Ozzie benched him for all of one game.

It’s just a never ending cycle.

I was told that accidentally a Chicago TV camera crew caught JR the week before the All Star break, upset on the field about the performance of his team (I wonder if they ever aired that??). Well JR can make changes to “change the culture” of his front office and his team if he wishes. Ultimately it’s his call.

I’m not a hypocrite. I said back in May, changes, and drastic changes, needed to be made (and should have been made years ago)…I stand by that feeling.

Until someone is told to “produce or else,” until players are put on notice, until the organization stops settling for mediocrity in the here and now (despite whatever past accomplishments have occurred) you are going to get more of the same and what Sox fans have been seeing on a regular basis since 2007. It’s not going to change on its own, someone has to start forcing the issue at whatever cost.

Lip

This guy.

thomas35forever
07-20-2011, 11:48 PM
Spot-on. If nothing changes, the club is going to start losing fans who are sick of the apathetic attitude that seems to be dominant around here. Any fans we gained in 2005 just might be on their last leg if they haven't already jumped ship.

GlassSox
07-20-2011, 11:51 PM
Lip,

You are right, it is about management and accountability. I do not think that the management has control of this team.

Accountability is tricky, the purpose of accountability is to improve execution and performance but this often must require some discipline. This has to be fair, equitable, & consistent and without any favoritism. It is also managements responsibility to make sure that expectations are clear, concise, & understood.

GlassSox

JermaineDye05
07-21-2011, 12:00 AM
Spot-on. If nothing changes, the club is going to start losing fans who are sick of the apathetic attitude that seems to be dominant around here. Any fans we gained in 2005 just might be on their last leg if they haven't already jumped ship.

Hi, I'm JD05.

I don't believe we've met.

captain54
07-21-2011, 12:06 AM
It's easy for JR to throw a fit, or KW to go on TV and make his case for the fact that the organization spent bunch of money to put a Championship ballclub together and the players are screwing it all up for not playing to their capability.

Well, I've got news for JR and KW. The reality is, the ballclub isn't as talented as you thought it was. Get over it. There have been some key miscalulations in the assembly of this club since 05. The Sox are taking a beating now for the signings of Rios and Dunn, but who knows, there were obviously reasons why other clubs didn't sign these players.

The problem is accountability, yes. And that starts at the top. Its much easier for the organization to throw the players under the bus, then to take a look and the people that are hired to put together, manage and coach the team.

Ozzie is given a roster of players. If those players are indeed underperforming, then you would have to beg the question, why? We've heard this underperforming argument for every season since 05.

HaroMaster87
07-21-2011, 12:10 AM
Well, that about sums up my feelings as well. The problem is the players are not performing as expected. Having never been in a major league clubhouse or even a job with guaranteed contracts, I cannot begin to guess how to get said players to perform as expected.

That being said...DO SOMETHING!

Status quo isnt working...

thomas35forever
07-21-2011, 12:16 AM
Status quo isnt working...
I think Kenny has heard that one song from High School Musical one too many times.

doublem23
07-21-2011, 12:22 AM
Yawn

Oh hey look, the same thread I've read 1,000 times this week

thomas35forever
07-21-2011, 12:26 AM
Yawn

Oh hey look, the same thread I've read 1,000 times this week
People post what's on their minds. Maybe if this team played the way it's capable of, you wouldn't have to read the same crap on a daily basis.

doublem23
07-21-2011, 12:27 AM
People post what's on their minds. Maybe if this team played the way it's capable of, you wouldn't have to read the same crap on a daily basis.

Hey, I'm just posting what's on my mind.

I really appreciate the anonymous name-drop there, too, in the OP. Classy. Which is really the point of this thread to begin with.

soltrain21
07-21-2011, 12:34 AM
Hey, I'm just posting what's on my mind.

I really appreciate the anonymous name-drop there, too, in the OP. Classy. Which is really the point of this thread to begin with.

Exactly what I thought, too. I get somewhat tired of the "emailed so and so" stuff.

Dan H
07-21-2011, 06:53 AM
There's a lot of talk about the Cubs bringing in Pat Gillick to help turn things around. This is something the Sox need. They need an outside person to help get things in order.

wassagstdu
07-21-2011, 07:09 AM
The players consistently underperform because they are consistently over-rated. They are consistently over-rated because the GM and the fan base have a flawed image of a good player. Part of the reason for that flawed image is the park they play in, part of it is a hangover from the juice era. The only one who is not part of this self-delusion is Ozzie, who I believe has a better image of what a good player looks like, even if he has not always identified real players accurately.

Who ever thought Adam Dunn was a good baseball player? The GM and the fan base did. Who to blame now???

JermaineDye05
07-21-2011, 07:23 AM
The players consistently underperform because they are consistently over-rated. They are consistently over-rated because the GM and the fan base have a flawed image of a good player. Part of the reason for that flawed image is the park they play in, part of it is a hangover from the juice era. The only one who is not part of this self-delusion is Ozzie, who I believe has a better image of what a good player looks like, even if he has not always identified real players accurately.

Who ever thought Adam Dunn was a good baseball player? The GM and the fan base did. Who to blame now???

You cannot be serious.

How about all of baseball thought Dunn was good? He was predicted by many experts to be a lock for 40 HR and 100 RBI given his track record. Some even thought he'd break 50 at the cell.

You say Ozzie has a better image of what a good player looks like. The very same Ozzie Guillen who said he'd want a team of 25 Juan Pierres.

Procol Harum
07-21-2011, 08:44 AM
You say Ozzie has a better image of what a good player looks like. The very same Ozzie Guillen who said he'd want a team of 25 Juan Pierres.

Hmmmm, well I'd take 13 ca.-2004 multi-positional Juan Pierres, Konerko, Pierzynski, 3 Buehrles, an '07 Peavey, 6 assorted mid-relievers, and a ca.-'64 Hoyt Wilhelm--who says I and Ozzie don't know talent?
:bandance:

SephClone89
07-21-2011, 10:37 AM
You cannot be serious.



7_KIzbktgJk

Tragg
07-21-2011, 10:42 AM
The only one who is not part of this self-delusion is Ozzie, who I believe has a better image of what a good player looks like, even if he has not always identified real players accurately.

Who ever thought Adam Dunn was a good baseball player? The GM and the fan base did. Who to blame now???

Ozzie's the man who couldn't find at bats for Thome (had he found those at bats, we wouldn't have Dunn), and loved Wise, Erstad, Kotsay and Owens. He's a big part of the problem of the wretched talent evaluation in this organization.

TheOldRoman
07-21-2011, 10:43 AM
The players consistently underperform because they are consistently over-rated. They are consistently over-rated because the GM and the fan base have a flawed image of a good player. Part of the reason for that flawed image is the park they play in, part of it is a hangover from the juice era. The only one who is not part of this self-delusion is Ozzie, who I believe has a better image of what a good player looks like, even if he has not always identified real players accurately.

Who ever thought Adam Dunn was a good baseball player? The GM and the fan base did. Who to blame now???Swing and a miss.

chisoxfanatic
07-21-2011, 10:45 AM
What a solid post, Lip. The organization has been too stubborn to make any true changes. If you do get replies, it would be great to be able to read them!

BigKlu59
07-21-2011, 11:45 AM
Nice job at chewing em a new one, Lip. Problem is, in their infinite wisdom they truly do look down on us as Know Nothings when it comes to the game.. Bottom line is, drink your beer, eat your dog and leave the cerebral stuff to us... You dont "understand" the game and all its picadillos and nuances.. You are a fan... Stay in your place.

I'm aboard with you and your well stated feelings.. Keep the hammer on the anvil..

BK59

Lip Man 1
07-21-2011, 11:50 AM
Sol:

All I can say to you is this. I try to pass along information that I get, nothing more...nothing less since this is a Sox fan message board and some folks might be interested in it.

Name recognition, name dropping is absolutely the farthest thing from my mind.

My ego doesn't revolve around the fact that some fans at WSI might 'look favorably' on me because of it. (Probably poor choice of words on my part but I can't think of any other way to describe it.)

If you think that's the case than by all means put me on the ignore list. Feel free to do so right now if you like. And that option extends of course to anybody here.

I've been a fan for 51 seasons (I'm about to turn 56) I care a lot about this team. It's been a part of 95% of my entire life. Because of what I do, I've been very, very lucky...I just try to let Sox fans know what I'm hearing that's all. A lot of fans don't have that opportunity...and as a fan for 51 years I think I've got the right to vent about this club and organization. I've earned that right if you will.

As far as not being able to name names that's the way the system works...sorry I'm not about to go changing it. All I can say is I've been posting here since 2002...I've written numerous articles for the web site, have tried to promote it to the mainstream media and have done over 60 interviews. That should give me some credibility no? It's not like I just showed up two weeks ago and started saying things.

Lip

Lip Man 1
07-21-2011, 11:54 AM
Chisoxfanatic:

I did get one reply back this morning from someone in upper management. It was short and to the point.

"It's hard to argue with anything you've written the way things stand now."

Take it for whatever it may be worth to you.

Lip

Gavin
07-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Just wondering what the point of emailing your friends about their jobs and then sharing it with us.. is.

Carolina Kenny
07-21-2011, 12:22 PM
Chisoxfanatic:

I did get one reply back this morning from someone in upper management. It was short and to the point.

"It's hard to argue with anything you've written the way things stand now."

Take it for whatever it may be worth to you.

Lip

If anyone in management reads this:

The next game I attend, will only be if Dayan V. is on the team.
I will not go to another game if Dunn is scheduled to play.
Dunn is having the worst season of any MLB player in 80 years. You expect me to go to the ballgame and spend over $100.00 for tickets parking and food for this load of crap???????????????????????

Lip Man 1
07-21-2011, 12:30 PM
Gavin:

Because I was upset and frustrated last night (like all of us...) and thought I was articulating the general feeling about what many fans are thinking and saying at this point in time to some folks who can help bring about change. We as fans can't.

Writing is a big part of my job... some fans just can't express themselves in a way that works. I tried to speak for a lot of fans if you will (again that's not to try to come across as arrogant) and posted it.

I was also trying to set things up so that if I did hear something back, which, I did this morning, it was in context. It didn't come 'out of the blue.'

There was absolutely no ulterior motive, no "hey look at me!" ego involved. None. It was completely about a frustrated fan trying to let those who can do some good know what I and other good fans are feeling.

Nothing more, nothing less. And if anybody takes offense with what I did than I apologize.

Lip

BigKlu59
07-21-2011, 12:41 PM
Gavin:

Because I was upset and frustrated last night (like all of us...) and thought I was articulating the general feeling about what many fans are thinking and saying at this point in time to some folks who can help bring about change. We as fans can't.

Writing is a big part of my job... some fans just can't express themselves in a way that works. I tried to speak for a lot of fans if you will (again that's not to try to come across as arrogant) and posted it.

I was also trying to set things up so that if I did hear something back, which, I did this morning, it was in context. It didn't come 'out of the blue.'

There was absolutely no ulterior motive, no "hey look at me!" ego involved. None. It was completely about a frustrated fan trying to let those who can do some good know what I and other good fans are feeling.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Lip

If there is access available... Take it. I appreciate your fastidious input on behalf of the fandom. Sometimes the Captain has to know the orr's are dropping overboard and the crew is turning into skeletons.. and he has a a bee line headin for those Rocks of Gibralter...

The way it sounds this team has a bad case of constipation...Too bad we can't send them a care package of Exlax...


BK59

JB98
07-21-2011, 12:43 PM
Gavin:

Because I was upset and frustrated last night (like all of us...) and thought I was articulating the general feeling about what many fans are thinking and saying at this point in time to some folks who can help bring about change. We as fans can't.

Writing is a big part of my job... some fans just can't express themselves in a way that works. I tried to speak for a lot of fans if you will (again that's not to try to come across as arrogant) and posted it.

I was also trying to set things up so that if I did hear something back, which, I did this morning, it was in context. It didn't come 'out of the blue.'

There was absolutely no ulterior motive, no "hey look at me!" ego involved. None. It was completely about a frustrated fan trying to let those who can do some good know what I and other good fans are feeling.

Nothing more, nothing less. And if anybody takes offense with what I did than I apologize.

Lip

I don't have any problem with what you've done here, Lip. We're all disappointed and/or frustrated with the way the season is going. We all want the Sox to play well and it's just not happening right now.

I try not to take my frustrations out on other posters here at WSI.

AZChiSoxFan
07-21-2011, 12:48 PM
Gavin:

Because I was upset and frustrated last night (like all of us...) and thought I was articulating the general feeling about what many fans are thinking and saying at this point in time to some folks who can help bring about change. We as fans can't.

Writing is a big part of my job... some fans just can't express themselves in a way that works. I tried to speak for a lot of fans if you will (again that's not to try to come across as arrogant) and posted it.

I was also trying to set things up so that if I did hear something back, which, I did this morning, it was in context. It didn't come 'out of the blue.'

There was absolutely no ulterior motive, no "hey look at me!" ego involved. None. It was completely about a frustrated fan trying to let those who can do some good know what I and other good fans are feeling.

Nothing more, nothing less. And if anybody takes offense with what I did than I apologize.

Lip

Thanks for posting Lip. I think it's great that you sent the E-mail and that you shared it here. Personally, it helps to know that people within the organization have heard (from you) exactly how I feel.

PorkChopExpress
07-21-2011, 12:51 PM
Just wondering what the point of emailing your friends about their jobs and then sharing it with us.. is.

Well, it wasn't me, but I would guess it was intended to create a topic for discussion with others that share a similar interest. Something people do on message boards. I, for one, am thankful to have these topics to read and share my thoughts on from time to time.

I'm not sure why people are jumping on Lip's case for this. Are you all just so sick of piling on this crappy Sox team that you need to lash out at someone, anyone else? If you don't like to read it, why do you read it? And then waste even more time commenting on how you don't like to read it?

Anyway, thanks, Lip. Keep it coming. And I totally am on board with everything you said. Hopefully changes are coming, which could be inferred from the response you posted, i.e., "the way things stand now."

Gavin
07-21-2011, 01:04 PM
Well, it wasn't me, but I would guess it was intended to create a topic for discussion with others that share a similar interest. Something people do on message boards. I, for one, am thankful to have these topics to read and share my thoughts on from time to time.

I'm not sure why people are jumping on Lip's case for this. Are you all just so sick of piling on this crappy Sox team that you need to lash out at someone, anyone else? If you don't like to read it, why do you read it? And then waste even more time commenting on how you don't like to read it?

Anyway, thanks, Lip. Keep it coming. And I totally am on board with everything you said. Hopefully changes are coming, which could be inferred from the response you posted, i.e., "the way things stand now."

I'm not jumping on Lip's case. I think he can freely post his thoughts and not have to validate them to us by mentioning it's what he sent to the White Sox organization. I value his written thoughts independent of the audience.

captain54
07-21-2011, 01:14 PM
Chisoxfanatic:


"It's hard to argue with anything you've written the way things stand now."


Lip

More like:

"It's hard to argue with anything you've written the way things have stood since mid 06'"

Soxman24
07-21-2011, 01:22 PM
If it wasn't for the free tickets I just got from a friend (Free parking pass included) I wouldn't be going back at all this year. And I attend on average about 20 games a year, been there three times this year. Thank's for sending that email Lip, for whatever it's worth

TomBradley72
07-21-2011, 08:31 PM
Gavin:

Because I was upset and frustrated last night (like all of us...) and thought I was articulating the general feeling about what many fans are thinking and saying at this point in time to some folks who can help bring about change. We as fans can't.

Writing is a big part of my job... some fans just can't express themselves in a way that works. I tried to speak for a lot of fans if you will (again that's not to try to come across as arrogant) and posted it.

I was also trying to set things up so that if I did hear something back, which, I did this morning, it was in context. It didn't come 'out of the blue.'

There was absolutely no ulterior motive, no "hey look at me!" ego involved. None. It was completely about a frustrated fan trying to let those who can do some good know what I and other good fans are feeling.

Nothing more, nothing less. And if anybody takes offense with what I did than I apologize.

Lip

Lip,

Don't let the douchebags get to you- anyone who has visited WSI only a few times would know you don't bring any ego to the game- just a passion for the team. I don't agree with all your posts- but I never doubt the knowledge or intention behind your opinions.

As for your post- I think the ultimate accountability resides with Kenny Williams. He's allowing/tolerating Ozzie to mismanage the roster he has to work with and it's clear that this collection of players is no longer responding to him.

KW also created this roster- with $50M of wasted payroll (Peavy, Rios, Teahen, Dunn) that we are stuck with through 2012 (except Teahen). All of these moves had red flags at the time- Peavy's health/high ERA away from Petco, Rios' apathetic approach/stuggling to hit .200 when acquired, Teahen's poor defensive skills/declining batting average, Dunn's 2010 performance (.199 vs. lefties, .230's after the all star break) combined with all of his hand wringing about the DH role.

Guillen's hesitancy to really hold people accountable goes all the way back to the hit on Jamie Burke in 2004-and his lack of retaliation vs. the Twins. Ozzie has never shown the ability to make the very tough call.

dickallen15
07-21-2011, 08:39 PM
Nice job at chewing em a new one, Lip. Problem is, in their infinite wisdom they truly do look down on us as Know Nothings when it comes to the game.. Bottom line is, drink your beer, eat your dog and leave the cerebral stuff to us... You dont "understand" the game and all its picadillos and nuances.. You are a fan... Stay in your place.

BK59

You forgot to add also don't boo Adam Dunn. He's really a nice guy and gets upset easily.

It is beyond ridiculous that this season is about 100 games old and this organization doesn't want to face the music one way or the other yet. If they don't pull a miracle and win, its going to be very costly to them with season ticket renewals. Do something. Stop it with the we cannot possibly be wrong attitude. Again. Something needs to change. This has been insanity.

balke
07-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Dunn's 2010 performance (.199 vs. lefties, .230's after the all star break) combined with all of his hand wringing about the DH role.


You really think a guy hitting a measly 16 homeruns in the 2nd half was a red flag?

You must've been beside yourself when the Sox signed a guy coming off a 100 RBI season.

I didn't want Dunn based on him being on bad teams, not wanting to DH, and coming from the NL. I thought there was a good chance he'd hit .215 in the AL as a DH - I just thought he'd have +80 RBI and 30+ HR to go with it.

BainesHOF
07-21-2011, 11:25 PM
The organization is losing me by not making any changes this season. It seems like the more obvious it becomes that changes are needed, the more the powers in the organization resist making them. It's very odd. How do you become one of the biggest disappointments in baseball and not do anything about it for four months? It's like the organization has a death wish.

If people in the organization think this team has a chance of turning things around then they're delusional. Anyone who has watched this team regularly knows it is incapable of playing winning baseball for a myriad of reasons.

kittle42
07-22-2011, 12:42 AM
The organization is losing me by not making any changes this season. It seems like the more obvious it becomes that changes are needed, the more the powers in the organization resist making them. It's very odd. How do you become one of the biggest disappointments in baseball and not do anything about it for four months? It's like the organization has a death wish.

If people in the organization think this team has a chance of turning things around then they're delusional. Anyone who has watched this team regularly knows it is incapable of playing winning baseball for a myriad of reasons.

Dead on. I, for one, am done after 6 seasons as a ST holder after this. They make no changes? I'll make one.

PalehosePlanet
07-22-2011, 02:31 AM
KW also created this roster- with $50M of wasted payroll (Peavy, Rios, Teahen, Dunn) that we are stuck with through 2012 (except Teahen). All of these moves had red flags at the time- Peavy's health/high ERA away from Petco, Rios' apathetic approach/stuggling to hit .200 when acquired, Teahen's poor defensive skills/declining batting average, Dunn's 2010 performance (.199 vs. lefties, .230's after the all star break) combined with all of his hand wringing about the DH role.

Alex Rios was hitting .264 when he was acquired, not .200. This is the first year he's been even close to the Mendoza line. This team was bereft of talent and athleticism coming into 2010, I don't blame KW for improving/resolving both issues without giving up players in return. Toronto was in financial straits at the time and had to ditch, or attempt to, all of their substantial contracts (Halladay, Rios, Wells.) There is no way Toronto was so enamored with Alex just 5 months earlier, gave him a 6/66 deal, then decided he had motivational issues. The move was strictly financial. He's been brutal this year, and has pissed me off no less than a 100 times, but hindsight is always 20/20 as the cliche goes.

Admittedly Peavy's health was a concern, as was his contract status, but I think that KW thought that this was the only way to acquire a true #1 without throwing CC Sabathia money at a FA (He also tried to trade for Halladay too.) Of course, he hasn't been the #1 KW envisioned, nowhere close, but I personally liked the gamble at the time. Better to bust on a 3/48 contract than a Zito/Hampton 130 million type contract. Peavy was only 28 when we traded for him so his prime years should have been now. Couple that with JR's team policy of never going over 3 to 4 years on pitcher contracts and our chance of ever signing an FA #1 is zero.

Dunn was the best left handed high OBP power guy on the market, which is exactly what we needed. We won 88 games last year without a DH. The Dunn signing, coupled with Paulie's return, should have catapulted this team to the top of the division.

Sorry, but I don't see what the "red flags" were in any of these cases.

The Teahen extension, however, is inexplicable:a stupid move designed to save us a couple million on payroll last year. A shortsighted move in every regard.

TomBradley72
07-22-2011, 07:38 AM
Alex Rios was hitting .264 when he was acquired, not .200. This is the first year he's been even close to the Mendoza line. This team was bereft of talent and athleticism coming into 2010, I don't blame KW for improving/resolving both issues without giving up players in return. Toronto was in financial straits at the time and had to ditch, or attempt to, all of their substantial contracts (Halladay, Rios, Wells.) There is no way Toronto was so enamored with Alex just 5 months earlier, gave him a 6/66 deal, then decided he had motivational issues. The move was strictly financial. He's been brutal this year, and has pissed me off no less than a 100 times, but hindsight is always 20/20 as the cliche goes.

Admittedly Peavy's health was a concern, as was his contract status, but I think that KW thought that this was the only way to acquire a true #1 without throwing CC Sabathia money at a FA (He also tried to trade for Halladay too.) Of course, he hasn't been the #1 KW envisioned, nowhere close, but I personally liked the gamble at the time. Better to bust on a 3/48 contract than a Zito/Hampton 130 million type contract. Peavy was only 28 when we traded for him so his prime years should have been now. Couple that with JR's team policy of never going over 3 to 4 years on pitcher contracts and our chance of ever signing an FA #1 is zero.

Dunn was the best left handed high OBP power guy on the market, which is exactly what we needed. We won 88 games last year without a DH. The Dunn signing, coupled with Paulie's return, should have catapulted this team to the top of the division.

Sorry, but I don't see what the "red flags" were in any of these cases.

The Teahen extension, however, is inexplicable:a stupid move designed to save us a couple million on payroll last year. A shortsighted move in every regard.

You're right about Rios- to quote Mark McGwire- I "misremembered".

The Dunn signing to me was just an example of no consistent philosophy- let Thome go because you want to be more flexible in the DH role. Mistakenly use Mark Kotsay as your LH DH in that scenario- then 4 months later waste $4M on Ramirez followed by $16M on Dunn-

dickallen15
07-22-2011, 08:39 AM
Alex Rios was hitting .264 when he was acquired, not .200. This is the first year he's been even close to the Mendoza line. This team was bereft of talent and athleticism coming into 2010, I don't blame KW for improving/resolving both issues without giving up players in return. Toronto was in financial straits at the time and had to ditch, or attempt to, all of their substantial contracts (Halladay, Rios, Wells.) There is no way Toronto was so enamored with Alex just 5 months earlier, gave him a 6/66 deal, then decided he had motivational issues. The move was strictly financial. He's been brutal this year, and has pissed me off no less than a 100 times, but hindsight is always 20/20 as the cliche goes.

Admittedly Peavy's health was a concern, as was his contract status, but I think that KW thought that this was the only way to acquire a true #1 without throwing CC Sabathia money at a FA (He also tried to trade for Halladay too.) Of course, he hasn't been the #1 KW envisioned, nowhere close, but I personally liked the gamble at the time. Better to bust on a 3/48 contract than a Zito/Hampton 130 million type contract. Peavy was only 28 when we traded for him so his prime years should have been now. Couple that with JR's team policy of never going over 3 to 4 years on pitcher contracts and our chance of ever signing an FA #1 is zero.

Dunn was the best left handed high OBP power guy on the market, which is exactly what we needed. We won 88 games last year without a DH. The Dunn signing, coupled with Paulie's return, should have catapulted this team to the top of the division.

Sorry, but I don't see what the "red flags" were in any of these cases.

The Teahen extension, however, is inexplicable:a stupid move designed to save us a couple million on payroll last year. A shortsighted move in every regard.
Rios was trending down and most scouting reports had him as a player who didn't really care. It was a boneheaded move.

gosox41
07-22-2011, 08:57 AM
Alex Rios was hitting .264 when he was acquired, not .200. This is the first year he's been even close to the Mendoza line. This team was bereft of talent and athleticism coming into 2010, I don't blame KW for improving/resolving both issues without giving up players in return. Toronto was in financial straits at the time and had to ditch, or attempt to, all of their substantial contracts (Halladay, Rios, Wells.) There is no way Toronto was so enamored with Alex just 5 months earlier, gave him a 6/66 deal, then decided he had motivational issues. The move was strictly financial. He's been brutal this year, and has pissed me off no less than a 100 times, but hindsight is always 20/20 as the cliche goes.

Admittedly Peavy's health was a concern, as was his contract status, but I think that KW thought that this was the only way to acquire a true #1 without throwing CC Sabathia money at a FA (He also tried to trade for Halladay too.) Of course, he hasn't been the #1 KW envisioned, nowhere close, but I personally liked the gamble at the time. Better to bust on a 3/48 contract than a Zito/Hampton 130 million type contract. Peavy was only 28 when we traded for him so his prime years should have been now. Couple that with JR's team policy of never going over 3 to 4 years on pitcher contracts and our chance of ever signing an FA #1 is zero.

Dunn was the best left handed high OBP power guy on the market, which is exactly what we needed. We won 88 games last year without a DH. The Dunn signing, coupled with Paulie's return, should have catapulted this team to the top of the division.

Sorry, but I don't see what the "red flags" were in any of these cases.

The Teahen extension, however, is inexplicable:a stupid move designed to save us a couple million on payroll last year. A shortsighted move in every regard.


I tend to agree with you. This team is so capable of getting hot and ripping off an 8-9 game winning streak.

It befuddles me that it hasn't happened yet. One damn hot streak is what we need now to get the confidence going. It's happened to teams with worse talent. Even with one or two hitters slumping, why can't some of the other guys hit (Morel, Beckham to name a couple?)

Bob

gosox41
07-22-2011, 08:59 AM
You're right about Rios- to quote Mark McGwire- I "misremembered".

The Dunn signing to me was just an example of no consistent philosophy- let Thome go because you want to be more flexible in the DH role. Mistakenly use Mark Kotsay as your LH DH in that scenario- then 4 months later waste $4M on Ramirez followed by $16M on Dunn-

What's really annoyed me about this team is the KW/Ozzie feud. That's what this was. Ozzie came out this year and admitted he wanted Kotsay back. Remember Soxfest 2010 when KW said they'd sign Thome and Ozzie said he didn't want him.

Ozzie got his way the first part of the year. But the suckiness of the rotating DH (and KW's stupidity for thinking Ramirez still had ability) forced KW to address this issue.


Bob

kittle42
07-22-2011, 09:43 AM
I tend to agree with you. This team is so capable of getting hot and ripping off an 8-9 game winning streak.

It befuddles me that it hasn't happened yet.

That might indicate that they're actually not capable of it.

kaufsox
07-22-2011, 09:48 AM
What's really annoyed me about this team is the KW/Ozzie feud. That's what this was. Ozzie came out this year and admitted he wanted Kotsay back. Remember Soxfest 2010 when KW said they'd sign Thome and Ozzie said he didn't want him.

Ozzie got his way the first part of the year. But the suckiness of the rotating DH (and KW's stupidity for thinking Ramirez still had ability) forced KW to address this issue.


Bob

I think this is where I stand too. I actually respect the fact that the Sox seem to have a plan at the beginning of the year, and come hell or highwater, they stick with it. Note, I say respect, not like. I think when it's apparent the plan isn't working, then a change is needed, but KW only goes for minor fixes, cheap alternatives or long shots. He has never just torn the whole thing down in the middle of the season, which I'm game for this season. But I think the feud needs to be settled, with one or the other being replaced. I lean more to wanting KW to stay, getting a free hand on the next pick, and given a window to see what can be done when the GM and manager actually agree on more than just winning.

Oh, and as a side note, to all the folks making statements about not showing up to the park until this happens or that happens: I respect your passion, but if you have tickets please post them on the tix exchange. I like to go to games, regardless of the GM, manager, coaches, hell even players. Nothing beats a summer day on the south side.

Fisk Fan
07-22-2011, 10:28 AM
Dead on. I, for one, am done after 6 seasons as a ST holder after this. They make no changes? I'll make one.

It seems as if this is the only way to get results from this organization. As long time Sox fans, we understand how things work. If enough ST holders do the same, change will come. It's just a shame that we have to go to these extremes to influence changes that seem so obvious to most everyone else........

kittle42
07-22-2011, 10:32 AM
It seems as if this is the only way to get results from this organization. As long time Sox fans, we understand how things work. If enough ST holders do the same, change will come. It's just a shame that we have to go to these extremes to influence changes that seem so obvious to most everyone else........

Agreed. I'd love to keep the tickets, as my seats are pretty good right now and I really can't complain about how the Sox have treated my group since 2006, but it just makes NO sense to keep them financially, and the product on the field just makes it such an easy decision.

Soxman24
07-22-2011, 11:05 AM
Agreed. I'd love to keep the tickets, as my seats are pretty good right now and I really can't complain about how the Sox have treated my group since 2006, but it just makes NO sense to keep them financially, and the product on the field just makes it such an easy decision.

I am with you man, I love going out to the ball park and really enjoy the experience but when times are tough I refuse to spend hard earned money on a mediocre product on the field. I can just as easily take the family out to Kane County for less than half the money if we wan't to have a night out at the ball park.

SephClone89
07-22-2011, 11:08 AM
I think this is where I stand too. I actually like the fact that the Sox seem to have a plan at the beginning of the year, and come hell or highwater, they stick with it. Note, I say respect, not like.

No, you said "like"...

JC456
07-22-2011, 12:24 PM
I will not renew my season tickets! Ditto to all others on here.

SCCWS
07-22-2011, 01:05 PM
As I often preface my remarks, I am a long time White Sox fan living in New England. I do that because my perspective is always from a distance and read very little of the local Chicago media.

I heard a brief interview from Red Sox GM Theo Epstein the other day. He was asked if the Red Sox would be busy at the trade deadline. He said that Red Sox management makes it perfectly clear to him that they want to win a championship. He said they have a high payroll now but are always looking to improve their roster. Obviously they are mentioned when Reyes and Beltran's names are floated.
The Red Sox are in first place despite a first half filled with injuries to key players. At one point they had 3 of there 5 starters out. But they are in always in an intense rivalry with the Yankees. Both teams continue to juggle rosters so the other does not get too big an edge.
I have a theory. Maybe that is what is wrong with the White Sox. Who is their rival??? Obviously the Cubs who are in worse shape. I can't believe the White Sox ownership is sitting pat watching this season and not thinking money is going down the drain. But if the White Sox are making money regardless of the gate attendance( which some teams do through cable and merchandise) then the pressure on the ownership to right the ship is not there. I wonder if the Cubs were a winning team, would that motivate JR to kick butt?
Maybe I am way off but it seems like JR does not see the walls crashing in. Unless maybe the balance sheet says otherwise.

Lip Man 1
07-22-2011, 01:13 PM
SCCWS:

Since the time the Reinsdorf-Einhorn partnership assumed control from Bill Veeck their philosophy (as outlined in my two part history of the relationship between the Sox and the media called "Sox and the Media" for WSI) has been "we're Chicago's American League franchise..." That's the term Eddie Einhorn used at the press conference announcing the sale back in January 1981.

They do not see the Cubs as a rival nor do they feel the need to try to 'take them on' so to speak for the Chicago turf.

That was abundantly clear in the 1980's when the Sox did nothing while the Tribune Company through the Cubs became the dominent team in the area.

Before that the team that was doing better on the field generally (as in 90% of the time) drew the most fans and had the most media attention.

As far as your comments about the Red Sox "philosophy", and I want to be clear this is not a knock at current ownership, the White Sox also want to win another championship badly however they want to do it on their own terms. They feel, rightly or wrongly, that there are limits to what they are willing to do as in how much money they spend, what agents they work with, what their relationship is with the media and so forth.

To their credit they have stuck with that general philosophy despite outside circumstances for over 30 years. I don't always agree with it but again I have to give them credit for sticking to their guns.

Lip

captain54
07-22-2011, 01:21 PM
Maybe I am way off but it seems like JR does not see the walls crashing in. Unless maybe the balance sheet says otherwise.

You may have something there. Forbes Magazine shows the White Sox franchise value increasing steadily, as well as total revenues. Of course, there is the offset of increased payroll.

So all of this despite a drop in attendance and a product on the field that sucks... interesting

SCCWS
07-22-2011, 02:05 PM
SCCWS:

Since the time the Reinsdorf-Einhorn partnership assumed control from Bill Veeck their philosophy (as outlined in my two part history of the relationship between the Sox and the media called "Sox and the Media" for WSI) has been "we're Chicago's American League franchise..." That's the term Eddie Einhorn used at the press conference announcing the sale back in January 1981.

They do not see the Cubs as a rival nor do they feel the need to try to 'take them on' so to speak for the Chicago turf.

That was abundantly clear in the 1980's when the Sox did nothing while the Tribune Company through the Cubs became the dominent team in the area.

Before that the team that was doing better on the field generally (as in 90% of the time) drew the most fans and had the most media attention.


To their credit they have stuck with that general philosophy despite outside circumstances for over 30 years. I don't always agree with it but again I have to give them credit for sticking to their guns.

Lip

Lip: As still an outsider looking in, I have only made one trip to Chicago in the last 30 years. It was around 2000 or 01. The company I worked for had bought a major Chicago company. I was going out to meet the group that I would oversee. I figured Chicago was 60/40 Cubs just from seeing attendance numbers though the years. But I quickly saw that the vast majority of people I met over the 2 days I spent were Cubs fans. Like 90%. One person even joked that " Joe" was the only White Sox fan in their office of 10-12. I came away with a very different perspective, right or wrong.
So the Cubs are ripe for picking but as you say, maybe the WS management could care less what happens on the other side of town.

kaufsox
07-22-2011, 02:30 PM
No, you said "like"...

whoops, fixed it :redface: