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Hitmen77
07-15-2011, 05:20 PM
Hopefully I don't mess this up by forgetting a major transaction like I did for the "best" thread.

The question is, since the end of the 2008 season, what has been KW's worst transaction?

Gavin
07-15-2011, 05:35 PM
So many choices!! :supernana::supernana::supernana:

I can't really hate on the Dunn signing, as bad as he is. Rios, on the other hand, was ****ing horrible when KW claimed him.

Hitmen77
07-15-2011, 05:48 PM
So many choices!! :supernana::supernana::supernana:

I can't really hate on the Dunn signing, as bad as he is. Rios, on the other hand, was ****ing horrible when KW claimed him.

Agreed. It's tough to choose among so many bad transactions.

doublem23
07-15-2011, 06:02 PM
I'd say Swisher, especially if the rumored Dye to Cincinnati for Homer Bailey rumors were true. Would have really reshaped the course of the franchise. No Dye meltdown in 2009, Swisher hopefully would have righted himself with a regular position to play, and acquiring Bailey to work with Coop hopefully would have negated any need to pursue Peavy.

sox1970
07-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Real tough call, but the thought of Rios playing CF for the Sox the next three years after this season made me pick that claim. So bad.

Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson could very well turn out worse.

kittle42
07-15-2011, 06:22 PM
Swisher. Swisher. Swisher. By far. Both ends of that were miserable.

DSpivack
07-15-2011, 06:41 PM
Real tough call, but the thought of Rios playing CF for the Sox the next three years after this season made me pick that claim. So bad.

Hudson/Holmberg for Jackson could very well turn out worse.

That was my choice, but that's probably more hindsight because of how Holmberg has performed in A-ball this year more than anything else.

BleacherBandit
07-15-2011, 06:54 PM
Is this about the worst judgement calls or just the worst transactions in terms of what has happened?

That's why I voted for Dunn, even though he still has three more years. Not a bad judgement call by KW just really bad luck so far.

central44
07-15-2011, 06:56 PM
I still don't understand the purpose of the Swisher trade. I can understand the logic behind every other move up there (even if I don't agree with most of them). And I can understand Swisher part I. But Swisher part II just baffles me.

How did he justify it again? That Jeff Marquez could be the next Jon Garland? :scratch:

That whole thing was weird at the time and is weirder now.

I'd say Jim Thome not being invited back is number 2. That was idiotic, but more because he let Ozzie push him around with that horrible rotating DH idea (awesome, lets use bench-caliber players every day when other teams have good hitters at a position designed for good hitters!) Who knows what the 2010 Sox could have accomplished with Thome back--or at least average MLB players to put in the DH rotation.

nitetrain8601
07-15-2011, 07:26 PM
I still don't understand the purpose of the Swisher trade. I can understand the logic behind every other move up there (even if I don't agree with most of them). And I can understand Swisher part I. But Swisher part II just baffles me.

How did he justify it again? That Jeff Marquez could be the next Jon Garland? :scratch:

That whole thing was weird at the time and is weirder now.

I'd say Jim Thome not being invited back is number 2. That was idiotic, but more because he let Ozzie push him around with that horrible rotating DH idea (awesome, lets use bench-caliber players every day when other teams have good hitters at a position designed for good hitters!) Who knows what the 2010 Sox could have accomplished with Thome back--or at least average MLB players to put in the DH rotation.

It was known Ozzie would not put up with another season of Orlando or Nick. There's a reason why at the time, he called it by far the toughest season for himself mentally. He could not manage nor understand either of their personalities which is why both were let go. If you remember originally, KW was negotiating with Orlando for an extension during the season until Ozzie said no. Swish then got traded for a bag of balls. Yankees bought low on Swisher.

Talent-wise, by far that was the worse trade they did(Part 2). If Swisher pans out like he did in New York, the first Swisher trade is a success. I feel we gave up on him too early. Swisher part 2 was a disaster though. We didn't get anything useful.

daveeym
07-15-2011, 09:11 PM
I went with Teahan but also would have liked to vote for not bringing back thome. Those two were dumb from the start where most of the others are dumb in hindsight, only cost us money, or were failed strategic moves that backfired and didn't play out as planned. While those are still on Kenny I can at least look at the big picture on them and see what he was thinking.

Hendu
07-15-2011, 09:28 PM
Rios because of the dollars involved. Especially if (as has been rumored) KW got duped on a waiver block move. Toronto's front office was doing cartwheels when they realized they could dump his salary on some sucker.

Frater Perdurabo
07-15-2011, 09:54 PM
The two Swisher deals together were a disaster.

If Pierre can lead off for this team, then Sweeney could start on this team and hit 8th or 9th, and if not, most certainly could fill the Teahen role.

Gio most certainly would be in the rotation, and we'd still have Hudson (pen), plus DLS and Holmberg (minors), plus the money we're paying Jackson. And we'd still have Ely and Link in the minors.

With what we're paying Jackson, we could have kept Putz and still signed Crain.

We also should have kept Thome and Andruw Jones, thus saving the $56M committed to Dunn.

Fielders: Alexei, Morel, Bacon, PK, AJ, TCQ, Rios, Sweeney/Jones
DH mix: Thome (with PK and TCQ also DH-ing v. LHP)
Bench: Castro (C), Viciedo (1B, 3B, RF, LF, DH), Vizquel (3B, SS, 2B)
Rotation: Buehrle, Peavy, Danks, Floyd, Gio, Humber
Pen: Santos, Putz, Crain, Thornton, Sale, Hudson

Consider that this hypothetical pitching staff includes seven guys who are MLB starters right now, and five guys who have had at least some success as closers.

slavko
07-15-2011, 10:15 PM
This one.

kaufsox
07-15-2011, 11:14 PM
got to go with Swisher, Kenny took it on both ends with those deals. As crappy as Dunn has been, I'm trying to be optimistic for the following years. Of course, if next year is this bad...

HarryChappas
07-16-2011, 12:08 AM
No brainer. The Rios contract is worse than Soriano's!! Yes, this might tick some people off, but the truth hurts. This guy is worthless and we have him for 3 more years. Correct me if I am wrong but has he ever hit .300 ? 35 Hr's? 110 RBI's? He can't even field anymore. At least Sorryano can still hit 25 bombs a year. The book is still out on Dunn. Get over Swisher. It wasn't a good trade, but you guys make it seem like GIo has had 5 great seasons or something. Sweeney will never be a star. I am actually more upset about losing Hudson for a guy we will lose at the end of the year.

doublem23
07-16-2011, 12:13 AM
I still don't understand the purpose of the Swisher trade. I can understand the logic behind every other move up there (even if I don't agree with most of them). And I can understand Swisher part I. But Swisher part II just baffles me.

How did he justify it again? That Jeff Marquez could be the next Jon Garland? :scratch:

That whole thing was weird at the time and is weirder now.

I'd say Jim Thome not being invited back is number 2. That was idiotic, but more because he let Ozzie push him around with that horrible rotating DH idea (awesome, lets use bench-caliber players every day when other teams have good hitters at a position designed for good hitters!) Who knows what the 2010 Sox could have accomplished with Thome back--or at least average MLB players to put in the DH rotation.

He had to move Swisher because the relationship between him and Ozzie was so poisoned that it didn't seem like the two could coexist any longer. Swisher's miserable season in 2008 culminated with him sulking on the bench when he wasn't getting any PT because he was playing like ****. At least Dunn, whose been much worse, is taking his lumps like a man.

Really, what killed the Swisher deal was the arrival of TCQ. Swisher was not acquired to be a lead-off hitter and CF, he was forced there because Quentin was playing too well all season to justify moving him. IIRC, when Swisher played regularly at 1B to fill in for Paul when he was hurt, it was his most productive time of the season.

In retrospect, I wish Swisher had been more mature and Ozzie less excitable, because from an on-field perspective, clearly the right move would have been to keep Swisher (and not trade him at his absolute worst value) and move Dye (before he bottomed out in the 2nd half of 2009). If Dye could have been moved for another reclamation pitching project for Coop, that would have likely prevented the need to go after Peavy, and having two corner OF could have, in theory, prevented the Sox from making that claim on Rios. Plus, Swisher could have, in theory, given the Sox the flexibility that Ozzie just loved so much he kept playing Mark Kotsay last year.

Really, if Swisher and Brian Anderson ever could have given the Sox even a sliver of their talent, we'd be in a lot better shape.

doublem23
07-16-2011, 12:15 AM
No brainer. The Rios contract is worse than Soriano's!! Yes, this might tick some people off, but the truth hurts. This guy is worthless and we have him for 3 more years. Correct me if I am wrong but has he ever hit .300 ? 35 Hr's? 110 RBI's? He can't even field anymore. At least Sorryano can still hit 25 bombs a year. The book is still out on Dunn. Get over Swisher. It wasn't a good trade, but you guys make it seem like GIo has had 5 great seasons or something. Sweeney will never be a star. I am actually more upset about losing Hudson for a guy we will lose at the end of the year.

Rios has hit .300 in a season before, yes.

PeteWard
07-16-2011, 12:48 AM
I made my choice based on how much of a clown the players are. So I chose the Ramirez deal, even though it really had no impact on the September race. I just hated having him with the team so much.

And for the same reason I was happy to see Swisher go. Every time I see his stupid mug, I gag. Yes, the Sox should have received more but I don't recall much hand-wringing by anyone when he went.

But to be objective, from a baseball perspective, the Rios deal is looking really ugly.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-16-2011, 02:45 AM
The Swisher deals were horrible on so many levels. Obviously, giving up Gio hurt. Then to give him away for nothing to the Yankees of all teams was silly. Swisher's BABIP that year was .249 so he probably experienced some bad luck that year. Even with a .219 AVG he managed .332 OBP and did have 24 bombs. Given his age, overall numbers, and the fact that they inexplicably thought he should play CF and leadoff, it would have been plenty reasonable to chalk it up to a bad year. There was little reason to spaz out and gift the Yankees the serviceable RF they needed.

TomBradley72
07-16-2011, 03:03 AM
Really, what killed the Swisher deal was the arrival of TCQ. Swisher was not acquired to be a lead-off hitter and CF, he was forced there because Quentin was playing too well all season to justify moving him. IIRC, when Swisher played regularly at 1B to fill in for Paul when he was hurt, it was his most productive time of the season.



You're right about TCQ- but he hit <.200 after the all star break and pouted when the season was on the line. All his rah rah stuff showed itself to be bull**** based on how he handled himself. Overall 135 Ks while hitting .219.

The guy completely rubbed me the wrong way- just not into the self-promoters-

http://nickswisher.net/

Dan H
07-16-2011, 09:14 AM
I voted for Manny even though some of the other trades or moves were worse. Manny was a crud and I couldn't cheer for him just because he wore a White Sox uniform for a short time.

SI1020
07-16-2011, 09:32 AM
I voted for Manny even though some of the other trades or moves were worse. Manny was a crud and I couldn't cheer for him just because he wore a White Sox uniform for a short time. Ozzie said he wanted him back and that idea had more than a little support here.

34rancher
07-16-2011, 10:00 AM
Short term? Swisher as stated above.

But in my opinion in the long term, I have to say a combination Dunn and Rios simply for the $$$. That's a $100 million between them. The lack of production is going to push away the cash in flow, thus forcing less at every position for the next 4-5 years.
Dunn is also holding up the development of the farm system (not just viciedo, but the guys who would get moved up to replace viciedo at AAA etc.). We are going to be severely handicapped in the near years for a guy who will finish the year with almost 200 k's and less than 25 hr.

At least rios has a glove.

doublem23
07-16-2011, 10:05 AM
You're right about TCQ- but he hit <.200 after the all star break and pouted when the season was on the line. All his rah rah stuff showed itself to be bull**** based on how he handled himself. Overall 135 Ks while hitting .219.

The guy completely rubbed me the wrong way- just not into the self-promoters-

http://nickswisher.net/

I think part of that downward spiral is that with no real position to play and being bounced all over the lineup all year (because TCQ took the LF spot that Swisher was acquired to fill) basically ruined his season here and the Sox coaching staff has yet to show me that they can pull a guy out of an extended slump.

I agree though, that Nick didn't help himself by turning into a little crybaby pouter. Compare him to Adam Dunn, who has joked about his struggles and takes them head on. He's visibly frustrated, but he's at least publicly showing all the signs of a guy who A) knows how bad he's been and B) desperately wants to get out of it. Swisher never exhibited such humility.

Again, there's blame to go around both sides, Swisher's behavior almost forced the Sox to trade him since they weren't firing Ozzie coming off a division title. I just wish they could have found a way to coexist because that would have really altered the course of the last 3-4 years if it had.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-16-2011, 10:41 AM
Tony Pena for Brandon Allen is going to look bad pretty soon as well.

soxfanreggie
07-16-2011, 12:07 PM
Agreed. It's tough to choose among so many bad transactions.

Reading this just made me ticked off before working out. I'll probably end up going a few extra miles today.

DSpivack
07-16-2011, 12:34 PM
Tony Pena for Brandon Allen is going to look bad pretty soon as well.

While a bad trade, I don't know if that will really come back to haunt us. I don't think Allen is anything special and he'll be replaced with Goldschmidt soon enough.

TomBradley72
07-16-2011, 12:35 PM
Tony Pena for Brandon Allen is going to look bad pretty soon as well.

Just checked out his minor league stats- 18 HRs, 66 RBIs, 1.006 OPS for half a season-

Brandon Allen
Chris Young
Gio Gonzalez
Ryan Sweeney
Daniel Hudson

for

Tony Pena (1.5 yrs before DL)
Javy Vazquez (2 yrs)
Nick Swisher (1 yr)
Edwin Jackson (1.3 yrs)

BringHomeDaBacon
07-16-2011, 01:15 PM
Just checked out his minor league stats- 18 HRs, 66 RBIs, 1.006 OPS for half a season-

Brandon Allen
Chris Young
Gio Gonzalez
Ryan Sweeney
Daniel Hudson

for

Tony Pena (1.5 yrs before DL)
Javy Vazquez (2 yrs)
Nick Swisher (1 yr)
Edwin Jackson (1.3 yrs)

Ouch

Gavin
07-16-2011, 01:42 PM
I think part of that downward spiral is that with no real position to play and being bounced all over the lineup all year (because TCQ took the LF spot that Swisher was acquired to fill) basically ruined his season here and the Sox coaching staff has yet to show me that they can pull a guy out of an extended slump.

I agree though, that Nick didn't help himself by turning into a little crybaby pouter. Compare him to Adam Dunn, who has joked about his struggles and takes them head on. He's visibly frustrated, but he's at least publicly showing all the signs of a guy who A) knows how bad he's been and B) desperately wants to get out of it. Swisher never exhibited such humility.

Again, there's blame to go around both sides, Swisher's behavior almost forced the Sox to trade him since they weren't firing Ozzie coming off a division title. I just wish they could have found a way to coexist because that would have really altered the course of the last 3-4 years if it had.

There's not that much blame to go around. Are you really sure that Nick Swisher entered a "spiral" because he didn't have a set position? If he's really that infantile in the head, then that's the real problem.

Tragg
07-16-2011, 02:24 PM
I understand that Swisher had to go, but he didn't have to be given away, like Williams did. He traded him in November, nearly 6 months before the start of the season. No patience, no negotiation at all. And to top it off, he actually threw in a pitcher to get the nothingness that the Yankees gave him.

TomBradley72
07-16-2011, 03:00 PM
I understand that Swisher had to go, but he didn't have to be given away, like Williams did. He traded him in November, nearly 6 months before the start of the season. No patience, no negotiation at all. And to top it off, he actually threw in a pitcher to get the nothingness that the Yankees gave him.

I'm not sure Swisher's market value coming off 2008 was very high- between his performance on the field and his pouting off the field- I think there was a pretty limited market for teams that would take on his contract.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-16-2011, 05:15 PM
I'm not sure Swisher's market value coming off 2008 was very high- between his performance on the field and his pouting off the field- I think there was a pretty limited market for teams that would take on his contract.

I disagree:

A) His contract was not that much

B) His "pouting off the field" was hardly a problem for any other team to worry about. It was clearly a personality clash with Ozzie. I'm guessing most observers would give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

C) Any team with a stathead within shouting distance could have figured out in about two seconds that his low average was due to bad luck more than anything else. Career high LD% + career low BABIP (.249) + other numbers mostly in line with rest of career = Bad Luck. He displayed the same power and patience (and propensity to K) as he had throughout his career.

He was the EXACT same player the White Sox knew they were getting when they acquired him.

russ99
07-16-2011, 05:25 PM
For me the worst deal is Rowand and Gio for Thome. Keeping Rowand could have won us the division in 06 and solidified CF for the next few years- and there would gave been no need to go after Rios.

For me that was all about money, as the Sox got cash back to defer Thome's salary. Rowand may have taken less to stay with the Sox in his FA year in 07, the Sox brass may not have wanted to pay him.

Thome was a very good Sox player, and won Game 163 for us, but there were plenty of sluggers available at the time while CF was a black hole for us for years.

SoxSpeed22
07-16-2011, 05:46 PM
The black hole at CF was a big problem in 06, but Thome's bat won quite a few games for us early in the season when the starting pitching wasn't as sharp, so I don't have much against that one.

DSpivack
07-16-2011, 05:52 PM
The black hole at CF was a big problem in 06, but Thome's bat won quite a few games for us early in the season when the starting pitching wasn't as sharp, so I don't have much against that one.

That and Brian Anderson was ready to start. I thought he was going to be special...:redface:

doublem23
07-16-2011, 06:39 PM
There's not that much blame to go around. Are you really sure that Nick Swisher entered a "spiral" because he didn't have a set position? If he's really that infantile in the head, then that's the real problem.

It's a game of routines, maybe that's not the one and only reason his 2008 season was horrible, but I think it contributed, especially early on.

doublem23
07-16-2011, 06:45 PM
For me the worst deal is Rowand and Gio for Thome. Keeping Rowand could have won us the division in 06 and solidified CF for the next few years- and there would gave been no need to go after Rios.

For me that was all about money, as the Sox got cash back to defer Thome's salary. Rowand may have taken less to stay with the Sox in his FA year in 07, the Sox brass may not have wanted to pay him.

Thome was a very good Sox player, and won Game 163 for us, but there were plenty of sluggers available at the time while CF was a black hole for us for years.

I see you're still on your unsubstantiated anti-Reinsdorf angle. You're absolutely right, the move was all about the money, even though the Sox raised their payroll by over $25 M from 2005 to 2006 ($75 M to $102 M). You beat that drum, though! No amount of facts will deter your mission, that's a level of commitment that I guess I admire.

The Sox had no left handed bat because Carl Everett, even though people wax poetically about him now, sucked. Thome filled that gap and Brian Anderson, who in retrospect was a huge bust, was coming off .294/.358/.470 season in AAA. Considering that Rowand has had 1 high quality year since the trade (2007) and a bunch of average to below average years. It's not like we let a star player bolt.

doublem23
07-16-2011, 06:46 PM
That and Brian Anderson was ready to start. I thought he was going to be special...:redface:

Everybody did. ****, some people still think he will.

TomBradley72
07-16-2011, 08:27 PM
I disagree:

A) His contract was not that much

B) His "pouting off the field" was hardly a problem for any other team to worry about. It was clearly a personality clash with Ozzie. I'm guessing most observers would give him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

C) Any team with a stathead within shouting distance could have figured out in about two seconds that his low average was due to bad luck more than anything else. Career high LD% + career low BABIP (.249) + other numbers mostly in line with rest of career = Bad Luck. He displayed the same power and patience (and propensity to K) as he had throughout his career.

He was the EXACT same player the White Sox knew they were getting when they acquired him.

I think it's foolish to assume KW didn't thoroughly "shop" Swisher as he prepared to trade him (mostly because TCQ was the better option in left, and he was set at 1B, DH, etc.)-

I don't agree with the "personality clash" argument- Swisher COMPLETELY SUCKED after the all star break hitting in the .190's then pouted in Minnesota during one of the most important series of the season- I doubt anyone blamed Ozzie for that.

A. Cavatica
07-16-2011, 08:54 PM
Worst non-transaction: firing Ozzie.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-16-2011, 10:01 PM
I think it's foolish to assume KW didn't thoroughly "shop" Swisher as he prepared to trade him (mostly because TCQ was the better option in left, and he was set at 1B, DH, etc.)-

I don't agree with the "personality clash" argument- Swisher COMPLETELY SUCKED after the all star break hitting in the .190's then pouted in Minnesota during one of the most important series of the season- I doubt anyone blamed Ozzie for that.

How is that a foolish assumption? He traded him on 11/13/08 (at the VERY beginning of the offseason) for a bag of balls.

Whatever you wrote in parenthesis isn't proof that he "shopped" him. If anything, it's proof that he didn't because he thought he was set everywhere else. And even if that were true, there was no reason to give him away to the team that is the annual chief competition for the AL crown.

Yeah, he sucked after the all star break. In part because he sucked and in part because he was unlucky (.202 BABIP after the break). That's no reason to give away a player for practically free.

doublem23
07-17-2011, 12:51 PM
How is that a foolish assumption? He traded him on 11/13/08 (at the VERY beginning of the offseason) for a bag of balls.

That's just when the deal was announced, for all any of us know, KW had been shopping Swisher around under the table for weeks at that point.

On top of that, Swisher had to go. That was the most obvious move of that off-season that needed to be made, what purpose would it do to sit on Swisher for months when you weren't going to get anything for him anyway? You can pull out his BABIP, his career slash line, etc. all you want, no body was giving us anything for him.

SI1020
07-17-2011, 12:59 PM
That and Brian Anderson was ready to start. I thought he was going to be special...:redface: Don't feel bad, so did I. Just for the record I'm not a FOBA and do not feel he was wronged by the Sox. He just didn't hit.

Hitmen77
07-18-2011, 09:25 AM
That and Brian Anderson was ready to start. I thought he was going to be special...:redface:

According to Kenny Williams, Brian Anderson was ready to be a starting CF for the defending World Series champs (and arguably the favorites to win the AL in '06). Later he also told us that Josh Fields was going to be an all-star.

Another "lousy" transaction by the Sox over the last few years wasn't really a transaction. It was the decision to rush Gordon Beckham through the minors at lightning speed. He looked great for a few months until MLB pitchers got to know him. Since then he has struggled. Perhaps he would have benefited from more time in the minors. Was it Kenny's call to rush him to the majors?

russ99
07-18-2011, 10:56 PM
I see you're still on your unsubstantiated anti-Reinsdorf angle. You're absolutely right, the move was all about the money, even though the Sox raised their payroll by over $25 M from 2005 to 2006 ($75 M to $102 M). You beat that drum, though! No amount of facts will deter your mission, that's a level of commitment that I guess I admire.


You forget the Phillies sent the Sox cash in the Thome deal to offset half his annual salary.

And I'm sorry, The Sox made the most they have ever made after winning the Series, and yet only spend $102M, leaving a glaring hole in the lineup?

Real unsubstantiated there...

Lip Man 1
07-18-2011, 11:20 PM
Russ:

The Sox actually made more money after the 2006 season due to the increased attendance and season ticket sales. For most of 2005 the mainstream media was again asking "where are the fans?"

Lip

StillMissOzzie
07-19-2011, 02:46 AM
A few of those are really, really bad but the jury is still out on just how bad, so they can't be the worst already. However, the Swisher in and out was pretty bad both coming and going, the book is closed, and that whole sordid episode was a real stinker.

SMO
:gulp:

DSpivack
07-19-2011, 11:20 AM
You forget the Phillies sent the Sox cash in the Thome deal to offset half his annual salary.

And I'm sorry, The Sox made the most they have ever made after winning the Series, and yet only spend $102M, leaving a glaring hole in the lineup?

Real unsubstantiated there...

What, in your opinion, would be an appropriate amount to spend if $102 million was not enough?

What about now? Is the problem too low of a payroll, being at or around $128 million?

doublem23
07-19-2011, 12:07 PM
You forget the Phillies sent the Sox cash in the Thome deal to offset half his annual salary.

And I'm sorry, The Sox made the most they have ever made after winning the Series, and yet only spend $102M, leaving a glaring hole in the lineup?

Real unsubstantiated there...

The glaring hole in the Sox lineup in the 2005/2006 off-season was the lack of any left-handed power, something Thome plugged very, very well. Again, it's easy to criticize that move now since BA has gone on to bust, but at the time he looked ready to move into the role as the Sox's everyday CF. He was a top 30ish prospect in all of baseball coming off a sensational season in AAA and was arguably a Gold Glove caliber defensive CF. Nobody would have picked Rowand over Thome/Anderson at that point. NOBODY.

Again, you're arguing over pennies when the Sox were dumping millions of extra dollars into payroll. Blame the 2006 failure on an overworked pitching staff wearing down, blame it on the bullpen heroes of 2005 reverting back to their career norms, blame it on the Twins and Tigers both having really good teams that year... But to blame it on Reinsdorf because he "only" spent $102 million on payroll that year is assinine, though expected from a poster who tries to deflect all criticism from the guys he blindly follows.

Domeshot17
07-19-2011, 02:20 PM
Where is the "keeping Ozzie around" option?

Johnny Mostil
07-19-2011, 03:46 PM
That's just when the deal was announced, for all any of us know, KW had been shopping Swisher around under the table for weeks at that point.

On top of that, Swisher had to go. That was the most obvious move of that off-season that needed to be made, what purpose would it do to sit on Swisher for months when you weren't going to get anything for him anyway? You can pull out his BABIP, his career slash line, etc. all you want, no body was giving us anything for him.

I agree with this, and with all the other comments about how Swisher's immaturity and conflicts with Guillén forced the trade. Which is why I have trouble calling it the "worst KW transaction since 2008." If you don't really have a choice, is it a bad transaction?

russ99
07-19-2011, 07:01 PM
though expected from a poster who tries to deflect all criticism from the guys he blindly follows.

Never once has that been brought up in the 6, heck 23 years I've been criticizing Reinsdorf for acting like a mid-market owner in a big market town.

Obviously you hate Ozzie, I get it. But it's dumb making assumptions about what I think or post based on that.

BTW - I've criticized Ozzie too, many times, but Ozzie's not the reason we've only made the playoffs twice since 2000.

When Ozzie's gone and the same mentality in the front office keeps this team from reaching the next level, who will you blame then??

Daver
07-19-2011, 07:17 PM
Was it Kenny's call to rush him to the majors?

That's a loaded question, Kenny makes roster decisions, but did he decide it on his own or based on the advice he was getting from the minor league evaluators?

You'll never get an answer to that.

Daver
07-19-2011, 07:18 PM
When Ozzie's gone and the same mentality in the front office keeps this team from reaching the next level, who will you blame then??

I'll blame you.

A. Cavatica
07-22-2011, 12:41 AM
Kenny's been GM for 10.5 years, so he's had enough hits and misses to make up an All-Kenny team for each.

Here's my All-Kenny Busts team. You might quibble (Betemit over Teahen, Rios over Erstad) but you have to admit it's an impressive list. Can you imagine watching these guys play together?

c - Ben Davis
1b - Mark Kotsay
2b - Danny Richar
ss - Royce Clayton
3b - Mark Teahen
lf - Manny Ramirez
cf - Darin Erstad
rf - Nick Swisher
dh - Adam Dunn
sp - David Wells, Jake Peavy, Edwin Jackson, Javier Vazquez, Jeff Marquez
rp - Billy Koch, Jon Adkins, Tony Pena, David Aardsma, Andy Sisco, Scott Linebrink

Lip Man 1
07-22-2011, 11:27 AM
Todd Richie should make the team.

Lip

Gavin
07-22-2011, 12:14 PM
Todd Richie should make the team.

Lip

He's down on the KW Bad Transaction farm, waiting for a callup.

Hitmen77
07-22-2011, 01:19 PM
He's down on the KW Bad Transaction farm, waiting for a callup.

It's the only good farm system KW has.

A. Cavatica
07-22-2011, 10:47 PM
Todd Richie should make the team.

Lip

Yes. Yes he should. I'm going to put him on the team over Javier Vazquez.

cws05champ
07-23-2011, 09:56 AM
While I think the Swisher trades were really bad, I still think the Jackson for Hudson and Holmberg was the worst. Considering the price of good pitching on the market giving up a good young pitcher (and what now looks to be a very good LHP prospect) for an over priced pitcher for a year and 2 months is really bad. Unless KW trades Jackson for something substantial at the deadline (which I don't believe he will), then this deal will go down as one of the worst.

Dunn while he has been worse than bad so far, was thought to be a decent signing, and Rios was phenomenal last year(.284, 21 HR, 34 SB) but has shown his mental weakness this year.

A. Cavatica
07-23-2011, 12:46 PM
While I think the Swisher trades were really bad, I still think the Jackson for Hudson and Holmberg was the worst. Considering the price of good pitching on the market giving up a good young pitcher (and what now looks to be a very good LHP prospect) for an over priced pitcher for a year and 2 months is really bad. Unless KW trades Jackson for something substantial at the deadline (which I don't believe he will), then this deal will go down as one of the worst.

Jackson for Hudson was my vote on the original poll. Even if you ignore Holmberg, and leave out the salary/length of control differences for the two major leaguers, Hudson continues to out-pitch Jackson straight up.

Hudson is now 19-8 for his career with a 3.12 ERA, and that includes his nine appearances for the Sox.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 11:12 PM
Which would it be?

This includes trades and FA signings over his tenure as GM.

WhiteSox5187
07-24-2011, 11:14 PM
I think it would probably be trading for Swisher.

JermaineDye05
07-24-2011, 11:17 PM
I think it would probably be trading for Swisher.

The more I see Gio pitch, that's how I feel.

DSpivack
07-24-2011, 11:17 PM
Either signing Dunn or claiming Rios, take your pick.

While there may have been worse trades, looking long-term if neither can perform, I don't think there are any other that will hurt worse in the long-term.

soltrain21
07-24-2011, 11:19 PM
Claiming Alex Rios. Every other move (well, minus trading Swisher) at least made some sense at the time. Rios, not so much.

soxfanreggie
07-24-2011, 11:29 PM
My original was Rios, but just looking at FAs right now...

Looking at fixed salary dollars, the Rios deal hamstrings us with $12 to $13 million each year thru 2014. He's here a lot longer than Peavy who's getting $16 million this year and $17 million next year. Unless he really ramps up his production, there's no way we pick up his $22 million in 2013 (costing us $4 million to buy him out). Now that I'm thinking about it, Rios wasn't too bad last year, and at least he's playing this year. We also gave up a haul of prospects (at the time it was a haul) to get Peavy.

I'll still hold out that Dunn would be more likely to rebound than Rios. I am not sure what is up with Dunn, but I hope it's something that can be fixed over the offseason.

I am pretty down now reading through those numbers; darn...I'll have to wait and think of the rest later.

Right now, considering how much we're paying him for how little he has played, plus giving up Clayton Richard (seeing what he has done)...I have to go with the Peavy deal. Yes, Rios is here longer, but it's a lot easier to hide someone who is struggling as a 5th OF/PH than a pitcher who isn't physically able to produce.

DSpivack
07-24-2011, 11:33 PM
My original was Rios, but just looking at FAs right now...

Looking at fixed salary dollars, the Rios deal hamstrings us with $12 to $13 million each year thru 2014. He's here a lot longer than Peavy who's getting $16 million this year and $17 million next year. Unless he really ramps up his production, there's no way we pick up his $22 million in 2013 (costing us $4 million to buy him out). Now that I'm thinking about it, Rios wasn't too bad last year, and at least he's playing this year. We also gave up a haul of prospects (at the time it was a haul) to get Peavy.

I'll still hold out that Dunn would be more likely to rebound than Rios. I am not sure what is up with Dunn, but I hope it's something that can be fixed over the offseason.

I am pretty down now reading through those numbers; darn...I'll have to wait and think of the rest later.

Right now, considering how much we're paying him for how little he has played, plus giving up Clayton Richard (seeing what he has done)...I have to go with the Peavy deal. Yes, Rios is here longer, but it's a lot easier to hide someone who is struggling as a 5th OF/PH than a pitcher who isn't physically able to produce.

I'm not all that impressed by Richard. Gio and Hudson (and Holmberg is tearing it up in the minors), OTOH...

kittle42
07-25-2011, 12:49 PM
Right now, considering how much we're paying him for how little he has played, plus giving up Clayton Richard (seeing what he has done)...I have to go with the Peavy deal.

Clayton Richard is not very good. Since arriving in SD, like many SD pitchers, his numbers look great at home and horrible on the road. If he pitched for the Sox every fifth day, his ERA would be 5.00.

Hitmen77
07-27-2011, 11:14 AM
Today might be an interesting day in a culmination of KW's 3 years of bad trades/contracts.

So, let's see, the Sox traded Hudson to AZ for Jackson. Hudson is doing great and earns the league minimum for several years to come while Jackson has been inconsistent, cost the Sox about $8 million and might be part of White Sox house cleaning today.

They also had about $4M to splurged on a washed up, unpopular Manny last year and are paying Teahen about $5M this year thanks to that contract extension.

Sheesh, what a mess (and I'm not even talking about the $24M for Dunn and Rios here).

Irishsox1
07-27-2011, 12:40 PM
By far Alex Rios. The White Sox as a team will be much better with this guy gone. They should just eat the money and cut him. He's a bad egg.

SCCWS
07-27-2011, 01:08 PM
Worst move is the one KW had and wouldn't pull the trigger.

2007-Buehrle for Buchholz-Bowden-Ellsbury. It would also have eliminated the future Pierre and Rios additions.

shingo10
07-27-2011, 01:16 PM
Worst move is the one KW had and wouldn't pull the trigger.

2007-Buehrle for Buchholz-Bowden-Ellsbury. It would also have eliminated the future Pierre and Rios additions.


That was a false rumor at the time. KW has stated that if that deal was offered Buehrle would have been out of here in a heartbeat.

SCCWS
07-27-2011, 01:45 PM
That was a false rumor at the time. KW has stated that if that deal was offered Buehrle would have been out of here in a heartbeat.

According to Boston and Prov beat writers at the time, KW did not want to take 3 minor leaguers. KW said Lester instead of Buchholz and Red Sox walked away.

soxinem1
07-27-2011, 02:02 PM
I voted Hudson/Jackson, but like many have stated, Swisher/Gio would have to be right up there, not even mentioning what De Los Santos has done with OAK this year. He's throwing pure gas.

Tragg
07-27-2011, 02:06 PM
I voted Hudson/Jackson, but like many have stated, Swisher/Gio would have to be right up there, not even mentioning what De Los Santos has done with OAK this year. He's throwing pure gas.

That's what's so frustrating: Williams has no problem sending off his best prospects for above average ML players (not elite or even close; just "above average" veterans); but when he trades above average vets, he never ever gets top prospects from the other team.

soxinem1
07-27-2011, 02:16 PM
That's what's so frustrating: Williams has no problem sending off his best prospects for above average ML players (not elite or even close; just "above average" veterans); but when he trades above average vets, he never ever gets top prospects from the other team.

To take that a step further, KW has recognized the Humber's, Jenks's, and Santos's of the game from other organizations, but not seeing the young, impact players he's let go since 2005 is pretty scary.

With all the jokes about Bavasi in SEA and the former mess in PIT, who has cast off more solid young arms and bats than KW the last five years?

And let us not forget, Gio was traded TWICE.

blandman
07-27-2011, 02:41 PM
i voted hudson/jackson, but like many have stated, swisher/gio would have to be right up there, not even mentioning what de los santos has done with oak this year. He's throwing pure gas.

:cool:

ShoelessJoeS
07-27-2011, 02:53 PM
I know that hindsight is 20/20, and some of us were excited about some of these moves at the time... but wow, so many ****ty deals for Kenny & Co. in the last couple years. The Swisher trades were brutal, and the Rios claim is haunting us. Is he really on the hook through 2014?? Ugh.

Hitmen77
07-27-2011, 03:19 PM
Rogers: Williams paying price for seeking quick fix (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-rogers-soxs-williams-paying-price-for-seeking-quick-fix-20110727,0,4988312.story)

SI1020
07-27-2011, 04:10 PM
Rogers: Williams paying price for seeking quick fix (http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-rogers-soxs-williams-paying-price-for-seeking-quick-fix-20110727,0,4988312.story) Not a big fan of KW lately but Rogers should just shut up. He ripped KW for trading "proven workhorse" Brandon McCarthy to get Danks. I know he owns up to it in the article but he's always all over the place with the Sox and has no credibility with me.

Irishsox1
07-27-2011, 05:29 PM
Not a big fan of KW lately but Rogers should just shut up. He ripped KW for trading "proven workhorse" Brandon McCarthy to get Danks. I know he owns up to it in the article but he's always all over the place with the Sox and has no credibility with me.

Dr. Phil is like the annoying drunk at the bar who follows baseball but doesn't know a thing about the game.

Hitmen77
08-01-2011, 01:44 PM
I voted Hudson/Jackson, but like many have stated, Swisher/Gio would have to be right up there, not even mentioning what De Los Santos has done with OAK this year. He's throwing pure gas.

They were both terrible trades. Right now, I'd say that Gio, Sweeney, and De Los Santos for Marquez and Nunez (with one lousy year of Swisher in between) is worse than Hudson for Frasor/Stewart (with 1 so-so year of Jackson in between).