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WS in 05
07-13-2011, 05:56 PM
Where's Hawk?

http://deadspin.com/5820716/the-100-worst-baseball-players-of-all-time-a-celebration-part-1

WhiteSox5187
07-13-2011, 06:02 PM
I saw that earlier, Ozzie has no business being on that list let alone that high. Their criteria for being "bad" seems to mean players with low OBP who didn't hit for power. Never mind if the player was good at defense and had a decent average.

kittle42
07-13-2011, 06:06 PM
"Actually, Guillen was caught on almost 40 percent of his attempts."

NOW I see why he loves stealing at a 50% rate these days...

BigKlu59
07-13-2011, 06:14 PM
"Actually, Guillen was caught on almost 40 percent of his attempts."

NOW I see why he loves stealing at a 50% rate these days...


Must be some latent PTSD from hearing ,"YOU"RE OUT !!!" Ozzie was a scrapper.. Sucks that they pegged him where thry did. Boy that roid era sure did mess it up for ping hittin,groundball gobblers of the world..

BK59

doublem23
07-13-2011, 07:05 PM
I saw that earlier, Ozzie has no business being on that list let alone that high. Their criteria for being "bad" seems to mean players with low OBP who didn't hit for power. Never mind if the player was good at defense and had a decent average.

Batting average means nothing without OBP and even if it didn't, Ozzie's career BA of .264 is unremarkable, to say the least. I don't remember Ozzie's younger years, but I do know that after he suffered that knee (?) injury that wiped out most of his 1992 season, he was only an average SS.

Sure the 9th worst baseball player of all-time seems kind of harsh, but for a guy that had over 7,000 career plate appearances, he doesn't really come off as being very good at any aspect of the game.

WhiteSox5187
07-13-2011, 08:40 PM
Batting average means nothing without OBP and even if it didn't, Ozzie's career BA of .264 is unremarkable, to say the least. I don't remember Ozzie's younger years, but I do know that after he suffered that knee (?) injury that wiped out most of his 1992 season, he was only an average SS.

Sure the 9th worst baseball player of all-time seems kind of harsh, but for a guy that had over 7,000 career plate appearances, he doesn't really come off as being very good at any aspect of the game.

I guess this is a difference of opinion about OBP because I think you can have a guy who can have a .270 average with something like a .300 OBP if he plays good defense, can handle the bat (i.e. lay down bunts, take the ball the other way) and steal some bases. He would have to bat 9th obviously, which is what Ozzie did.

Ozzie Guillen wasn't a great baseball player, but he wasn't awful either. He is certainly not belonging on the list of the 100 worst baseball players.

russ99
07-13-2011, 09:27 PM
I guess defense doesn't matter at all...

Also this just goes to prove my assertion that OPS is useless when comparing power hitters to non-power hitters. It's not a level comparison.

Would anyone say Jack Cust is a better baseball player or even a better hitter that Ichiro? Well Cust has a higher career OPS.

Daver
07-13-2011, 09:36 PM
I guess defense doesn't matter at all...



Ozzie Smith disagrees with you.

Hitmen77
07-13-2011, 10:11 PM
I stopped reading after I saw that the 9th guy on the list was Ozzie Guillen.

No, Ozzie wasn't a HOF-er or anything, but one of the 100 worst players of all time? Come on.:rolleyes:

A. Cavatica
07-13-2011, 10:19 PM
I stopped reading after I saw that the 9th guy on the list was Ozzie Guillen.

No, Ozzie wasn't a HOF-er or anything, but one of the 100 worst players of all time? Come on.:rolleyes:

Great fielder until the collision.

Awful hitter throughout his career, just terrible. But not in the bottom 100 of all time.

TDog
07-13-2011, 10:25 PM
Batting average means nothing without OBP and even if it didn't, Ozzie's career BA of .264 is unremarkable, to say the least. I don't remember Ozzie's younger years, but I do know that after he suffered that knee (?) injury that wiped out most of his 1992 season, he was only an average SS.

Sure the 9th worst baseball player of all-time seems kind of harsh, but for a guy that had over 7,000 career plate appearances, he doesn't really come off as being very good at any aspect of the game.

On-base percentage means nothing without batting average. If you're comparing players by their stats, you're only guessing.

Luis Aparicio had a career batting average of .262 and a career on-base percentage of .311. He is in the Hall of Fame. Guillen is not, and certainly I wouldn't argue that he comes close to belonging in the Hall of Fame. But he won a Rookie of the Year award and a Gold Glove. He was three times an All-Star. There were many players worse than Ozzie Guillen between the mid 1980s and mid-1990s. There were hundreds who never won a Gold Glove and were never named All-Stars.

Ranking Guillen among the 100 worst baseball players is ridiculous. His playing career may even be in the top half among the 30 active managers, although that's something I haven't really thought about.

TommyJohn
07-13-2011, 11:19 PM
I stopped reading after I saw that the 9th guy on the list was Ozzie Guillen.

No, Ozzie wasn't a HOF-er or anything, but one of the 100 worst players of all time? Come on.:rolleyes:

That alone tells me the list isn't worth squat. Number 9? What, Paul Popovich refused the slot?

slavko
07-13-2011, 11:42 PM
Eric Nusbaum. Credibility zero. Don't waste your time reading it.

Marqhead
07-13-2011, 11:45 PM
This is the first I've ever read of it, but I think Merkle gets bad rap.

mzh
07-13-2011, 11:53 PM
This is the first I've ever read of it, but I think Merkle gets bad rap.
Dude made that horrible mistake as a rookie and scarred his whole career. He hit 60+ HR during the dead ball era and had a career OPS over .700. 3rd worst player EVER.

kittle42
07-14-2011, 12:11 AM
I am not saying the article is a good one, but its spirit is not to really name the ACTUAL 100 worst players ever, as hardly any of those guys would be on it (I mean, Eddie Gaedel made the list, as did several players who actually were decent).

It's split up by category and includes infamous people, big league sons, athletes in other sports, Michael Jordan, etc.

Obviously, regardless of whether it is a good/funny/whatever article, many here kinda didn't get it.

I found it mildly informative and fun for nostalgia purposes.

But you guys keep railing on the list's "credibility."

PalehosePlanet
07-14-2011, 12:21 AM
That alone tells me the list isn't worth squat. Number 9? What, Paul Popovich refused the slot?

Hahahahaha....oh man, Paul Popovich.

Speaking of ****ty Cubs guys from the '70's, remember Vic Harris? I remember as a kid thinking that he was easily the worst player in baseball. Every Sunday when the newspapers ran the entire league batting and pitching stats I remember him being dead last on the list. Usually with a .185 or thereabouts.

ComiskeyBrewer
07-14-2011, 02:45 AM
Bob Uecker definitely deserves to be on that list. I love the guy, but he had no real business being in a major league uniform for a game, let alone 5 years(and winning a championship with STL).

Marqhead
07-14-2011, 05:22 AM
Dude made that horrible mistake as a rookie and scarred his whole career. He hit 60+ HR during the dead ball era and had a career OPS over .700. 3rd worst player EVER.

I'm curious though, is this even a rule any more? Do players always have to advance on walk off hits, or is it just one of those "never called, but in the rules" things. The run scored before the 3rd out, isn't that all that matters?

Hitmen77
07-14-2011, 10:51 AM
I am not saying the article is a good one, but its spirit is not to really name the ACTUAL 100 worst players ever, as hardly any of those guys would be on it (I mean, Eddie Gaedel made the list, as did several players who actually were decent).

It's split up by category and includes infamous people, big league sons, athletes in other sports, Michael Jordan, etc.

Obviously, regardless of whether it is a good/funny/whatever article, many here kinda didn't get it.

I found it mildly informative and fun for nostalgia purposes.

But you guys keep railing on the list's "credibility."

Well, um, they did title the article "THE 100 WORST BASEBALL PLAYERS OF ALL TIME".

In the intro the guy who wrote this says: "....players whose failure was enduring, endearing, perplexing,and spectacular".

Ozzie is #9 on that list? His failure was enduring, endearing, perplexing, and spectacular? :scratch: Oh well, just count me as one of the simple minded masses who kind of didn't get it.

Ex-Chicagoan
07-14-2011, 11:25 AM
For that matter, does Michael Jordan even belong on the list? If we're going to count minor-league ballplayers, I am sure we can find a hundred worse.

Hell, put me on the list. I was cut from my freshman baseball team and never played in the majors, either.

mzh
07-14-2011, 11:31 AM
I'm curious though, is this even a rule any more? Do players always have to advance on walk off hits, or is it just one of those "never called, but in the rules" things. The run scored before the 3rd out, isn't that all that matters?
Maybe they made an amendment to the rule after the incident? Obviously it's a one of a kind thing, or else we would hear about more than just Merkle 100 years ago. I do remember at the end of Harvey Haddix's 12 inning perfect game, someone (Hank Aaron?) hit a walk off 2 run homer but ended up being charged with a walk off single because fans stormed the field and prevented him from scoring.

kittle42
07-14-2011, 11:43 AM
Well, um, they did title the article "THE 100 WORST BASEBALL PLAYERS OF ALL TIME".

In the intro the guy who wrote this says: "....players whose failure was enduring, endearing, perplexing,and spectacular".

Ozzie is #9 on that list? His failure was enduring, endearing, perplexing, and spectacular? :scratch: Oh well, just count me as one of the simple minded masses who kind of didn't get it.

I would say the lead-in to the article is most certainly not indicative of the content.

doublem23
07-14-2011, 11:48 AM
Maybe they made an amendment to the rule after the incident? Obviously it's a one of a kind thing, or else we would hear about more than just Merkle 100 years ago. I do remember at the end of Harvey Haddix's 12 inning perfect game, someone (Hank Aaron?) hit a walk off 2 run homer but ended up being charged with a walk off single because fans stormed the field and prevented him from scoring.

I believe in the 2000 (?) NLCS, Robin Ventura hit a walk-off HR, but is only credited with a walk-off RBI double because his teammates mobbed him at 2B so he never touched all the bases. Moot point because the winning run scored ahead of him.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-14-2011, 11:50 AM
I'm curious though, is this even a rule any more? Do players always have to advance on walk off hits, or is it just one of those "never called, but in the rules" things. The run scored before the 3rd out, isn't that all that matters?
You have to advance, ask Robin Ventura.

Merkle gets a bad rap. The play happened in a regular season game; it wasn't even a playoff game. The Giants had other opportunities to beat the Cubs after that game.

MARTINMVP
07-14-2011, 12:50 PM
Everyone on that list are far better ball players than the 99.9% of us who post on this site.

WS in 05
07-14-2011, 12:54 PM
It's deadspin............

BleacherBandit
07-14-2011, 01:01 PM
Everyone on that list are far better ball players than the 99.9% of us who post on this site.

How do you know that? I could be Frank Thomas.

kittle42
07-14-2011, 01:17 PM
Everyone on that list are far better ball players than the 99.9% of us who post on this site.

Your point being?

Daver
07-14-2011, 02:44 PM
How do you know that? I could be Frank Thomas.

That's impossible, Frank would not be posting from a college library in Minnesota.

TDog
07-14-2011, 02:49 PM
I believe in the 2000 (?) NLCS, Robin Ventura hit a walk-off HR, but is only credited with a walk-off RBI double because his teammates mobbed him at 2B so he never touched all the bases. Moot point because the winning run scored ahead of him.

In the 1999 NLCS, playing for the Mets, Robin Ventura ended Game 5 with a 15th-inning bases-loaded hit that cleared the centerfield wall. He only got credit for a single because John Olerud from second base didn't come in to score and Ventura, in fact, never got to second base because of the celebration. Had Olerud not touched third, if Roger Cedeno had not touched second, the Braves could have appealed the play and gone on to the 16th inning, in theory. They would have had to get the home plate umpire for a new ball and put it in play from the mound because Ventura's ball was hit out of play. And it would have been a huge mess.

I have read that Henry Aaron robbed teammate Joe Adcock of a home run in the Harvey Haddix 12-inning perfect game. Haddix lost the perfect game on an error to lead off the 13th, after a sacrifice, Aaron was intentionally walked. Adcock appeared to hit a home run for the only Braves hit of the night, but Aaron ran into the dugout after touching third. Technically, I think, Adcock was called out for passing Aaron on the bases, but the run had scored to win the game on a double by Adcock. It wasn't a matter of winning or losing, but of scoring. And, that was a 1-0 game, despite the only Braves hit leaving County Stadium.

I also have read that Fred Merkle didn't touch second because he feared the unruly mob of fans coming toward him, and that the ball had been thrown into the stands, but the Cubs chased down a fan to retrieve it. There was no television. It would be about a dozen more years before a baseball game would be done on radio. The Giants lost the league championship because of that play, and that's all people really understood.

Lip Man 1
07-14-2011, 03:08 PM
Retrosheet's play by play:

BRAVES 13TH: Mantilla reached on an error by Hoak; Mathews out
on a sacrifice bunt (pitcher to second) [Mantilla to second];
Aaron was walked intentionally; Adcock doubled to center
[Mantilla scored (unearned), Aaron to third, Adcock out at
second (shortstop unassisted)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.
Pirates 0, Braves 1.

Lip

Argalarga
07-14-2011, 03:29 PM
I enjoyed the list as a piece of entertainment. And I don't think it's in ranking order so much as split into sections.

As far as Ozzie goes, he wasn't one of the worst baseball players ever, but he wasn't all that great. He could never hit well, and after he got hurt, his defence declined pretty sharply.

AZChiSoxFan
07-14-2011, 07:04 PM
Should Adam Dunn be on this list? :smile:

TDog
07-14-2011, 07:33 PM
Retrosheet's play by play:

BRAVES 13TH: Mantilla reached on an error by Hoak; Mathews out
on a sacrifice bunt (pitcher to second) [Mantilla to second];
Aaron was walked intentionally; Adcock doubled to center
[Mantilla scored (unearned), Aaron to third, Adcock out at
second (shortstop unassisted)]; 1 R (0 ER), 1 H, 1 E, 1 LOB.
Pirates 0, Braves 1.

Lip

I don't know if you are agreeing with me or disputing me, but this is consistent with what I wrote.

I read that Adcock was officially called out for technically passing Aaron on the bases after Aaron ran into the dugout. I didn't actually see the game. I was about 2 at the time and wouldn't have understood what I was seeing even if I had seen it, but how else does this play-by-play make any sense?

If Adcock had been thrown out at second base, there would have been an outfield assist. It was a hit that scored the only run in a 1-0 game in the bottom of the 13th, that is, Adcock's hit ended the game, and the Pirates shortstop got credit for an unassisted putout after the run scored.

The most interesting part about the play-by-play is that Eddie Mathews, who hit 512 home runs for his career, when that actually meant more than it does today, in a season where he probably led both his team and league in home runs, bunted to get the winning run to second, even though it meant Haddix would walk Aaron, who was probably second on the team in home runs. If I have who was leading the Braves and National League in home runs, it's irrelevant, because we're talking about Eddie Mathews and Henry Aaron, two hitters who should need no qualifiers.

SI1020
07-14-2011, 07:57 PM
I remember the Haddix near perfect game, probably the best game ever pitched in MLB history. TDog's account is accurate. Adcock got credit for a double because of Aaron, not realizing the ball had gone out, went to the dugout without crossing the plate. Haddix could ease some of his disappointment the following year when the Pirates shocked the sports world and beat the Yankees in the 7th game of a very improbable World Series.

PeteWard
07-16-2011, 08:18 PM
These lists are only readable if the descriptions are funny. These are not. I think they put Ozzie and a few others on there because if they did not, the long list of utterly obscure players would be tiresome. Silly what can pass for sports writing these days. Ozzie was a serviceable ball player and is not even close to qualifying.

TommyJohn
07-17-2011, 01:27 AM
Reminds me of the list of the "100 Worst Football Players of All Time." That list was also bad-it ranked Rusty Lisch at #1. It was stupid-Lisch isn't even the worst Bears quarterback ever, let alone the worst player.

DSpivack
07-17-2011, 10:15 AM
Reminds me of the list of the "100 Worst Football Players of All Time." That list was also bad-it ranked Rusty Lisch at #1. It was stupid-Lisch isn't even the worst Bears quarterback ever, let alone the worst player.

There have been so many, how would you choose #1?!

HaroMaster87
07-24-2011, 01:59 AM
Ozzie - ROY, SNROY as well as being one of only 3 rookie shortstops in history to win a fielding title and has a better career fielding percentage than Aparicio or Concepcion, 3 time all-star and 1 gold glove...yup, sure sounds like the 9th worst OF ALL TIME...

That just baseball stoopeed right thur...smh :scratch:

waldo_the_wolf
07-26-2011, 08:22 PM
I think I literally LOL'd when I read that "if you'll believe an un-sourced wikipedia factoid" part about Rafael Belliard.

Also, I was expecting Scott Ruffcorn to be on the list.

SI1020
07-26-2011, 09:42 PM
These lists are only readable if the descriptions are funny. These are not. I think they put Ozzie and a few others on there because if they did not, the long list of utterly obscure players would be tiresome. Silly what can pass for sports writing these days. Ozzie was a serviceable ball player and is not even close to qualifying. You're right. It's an awful list. I glanced at it and closed the link.

mantis1212
07-26-2011, 10:06 PM
I am not saying the article is a good one, but its spirit is not to really name the ACTUAL 100 worst players ever, as hardly any of those guys would be on it (I mean, Eddie Gaedel made the list, as did several players who actually were decent).

It's split up by category and includes infamous people, big league sons, athletes in other sports, Michael Jordan, etc.

Obviously, regardless of whether it is a good/funny/whatever article, many here kinda didn't get it.

I found it mildly informative and fun for nostalgia purposes.

But you guys keep railing on the list's "credibility."

Exactly

Smokey Burg
07-27-2011, 01:45 PM
Thats a terrible list. Most of those guys had long careers, and all but a few had good years. Some even showed flashes of brilliance. Sure most of them were average or slightly below, but not terrible ball players. Besides, no worst ever list is complete without naming Herman Siegelke. He was truly a terrible ball player at MLB level.

doublem23
07-27-2011, 02:00 PM
I thought it was a pretty good list