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LITTLE NELL
07-12-2011, 05:13 AM
I for one was shocked that KW didn't fire Ozzie right after Sunday's game. Regardless if you like Ozzie or not, are you surprised that Ozzie is still with us?

kufram
07-12-2011, 06:11 AM
Not even mildly surprised. Now isn't the time.

DumpJerry
07-12-2011, 06:28 AM
He's probably not here. He usually goes to Miami during breaks.

TommyGavinFloyd
07-12-2011, 06:29 AM
No, I am not surprised at all. Does it look good right now no, but we are still only 5 games out in a subpar division. If Ozzie is going to get fired, it will be after the season. Why in the world would he be fired going into the All-Star break?

Boondock Saint
07-12-2011, 06:46 AM
No, I am not surprised at all. Does it look good right now no, but we are still only 5 games out in a subpar division. If Ozzie is going to get fired, it will be after the season. Why in the world would he be fired going into the All-Star break?

For some reason, people look at this as if it's a positive. Many people see it as the problem, though. The entire division blows, and we're barely treading water. I'm not sure you can even call it that, because we easily have the worst division record of any team in the Central. Hell, there's only one team in all of baseball who's played their own division worse than the Sox, and that's the Orioles (they have an excuse).

kufram
07-12-2011, 07:23 AM
Not so much a positive as a fact. 5 games out. So we blow a bit more than the Indians and the Tigers and we've played the worst baseball I think we possibly can offensively. Can it stay this bad? ... yes, I suppose it can. Can the offense improve? .. sure.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 07:28 AM
Not even mildly surprised. Now isn't the time. It's past time, and no I don't think there are going to be any major changes anytime soon. This franchise will continue to stubbornly grind its nose into the ground.

russ99
07-12-2011, 07:43 AM
I for one was shocked that KW didn't fire Ozzie right after Sunday's game. Regardless if you like Ozzie or not, are you surprised that Ozzie is still with us?

Not at all. But I am surprised that Walker is still here, considering our hitters are in the bottom 25% of all hitting stats in the AL.

Look around other Sox sites and baseball sites. Nowhere are they calling for the head of Ozzie as much and as loudly than here.

So is that a true measure of what the fanbase thinks?

VenturaFan23
07-12-2011, 07:50 AM
If anyone should have been fired by now, it should have been Walker. But I'm not surprised he's still here too.

Boondock Saint
07-12-2011, 07:54 AM
Not at all. But I am surprised that Walker is still here, considering our hitters are in the bottom 25% of all hitting stats in the AL.

Look around other Sox sites and baseball sites. Nowhere are they calling for the head of Ozzie as much and as loudly than here.

So is that a true measure of what the fanbase thinks?

Considering that WSI is often renowned as one of the most intelligent internet sports communities there is, I'd say that it's a true measure of what the people who really pay attention to the team think. I couldn't care less what people elsewhere are or are not saying.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 08:00 AM
Not at all. But I am surprised that Walker is still here, considering our hitters are in the bottom 25% of all hitting stats in the AL.

Look around other Sox sites and baseball sites. Nowhere are they calling for the head of Ozzie as much and as loudly than here.

So is that a true measure of what the fanbase thinks? Not true.

Hitmen77
07-12-2011, 08:07 AM
I for one was shocked that KW didn't fire Ozzie right after Sunday's game. Regardless if you like Ozzie or not, are you surprised that Ozzie is still with us?

Whether you want them gone or not, I'm not surprised at all that Ozzie and Walker are still here.

WisSoxFan
07-12-2011, 08:07 AM
I keep checking here throughout the day waiting for the thread with the title "Ozzie Fired" or words to that affect because I know this site will be on top if it almost before the media. I've been disappointed thus far. I am surprised he's still here. I would think KW should be worrying about his employment and would make the change.

CHISOXFAN13
07-12-2011, 08:10 AM
He's probably not here. He usually goes to Miami during breaks.

Ozzie is in town running a series of camps for kids with the Bulls/Sox Academy. He will be in Mt. Greenwood today.

bluedemon45
07-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Remember when Doug Collins said he couldn't take the Bulls job a few years ago because Reinsdorf came out and said "Doug, I could never fire you" because he had too much respect for Doug Collins.

Why do I get some weird feeling that he might have said this to Ozzie before.

TommyGavinFloyd
07-12-2011, 08:51 AM
Not so much a positive as a fact. 5 games out. So we blow a bit more than the Indians and the Tigers and we've played the worst baseball I think we possibly can offensively. Can it stay this bad? ... yes, I suppose it can. Can the offense improve? .. sure.

That's exactly how I view it. I mean with as bad as this division is, we could be in first place in a week. Is is likely, hell no, but as long as it's possible I don't see Ozzie being fired. Now if the Tigers start to run away with it sure but I just don't see anyone running away with this division. It's going to be a long, frustrating couple of months but we are still going to be a hot streak away from winning the division.

Domeshot17
07-12-2011, 09:06 AM
Another pathetic Managerial Job by Ozzie with no consequences. Not suprised in the least. Any other manager who had this much talent and this poor of results would have been fired a while ago. Not Ozzie Though. 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TheOldRoman
07-12-2011, 09:16 AM
No. Not surprised at all. Ozzie should have been let go, but I never for a minute expected they would make the move. As other have said, Walker should have been fired first (like... five years ago). Still, I am hopeful they ship Ozzie off to Florida in the offseason. On the other hand, Walker will survive somehow. He can't be fired and is probably immortal. I look forward to taking my grandkids to the park in fifty years to watch the Sox' powerful offense get shut out by a robot which was programmed to throw nothing but breaking balls a foot outside.

kaufsox
07-12-2011, 09:31 AM
Not surprised at all. If it's going to happen I think it will be in the off season.

TomBradley72
07-12-2011, 09:52 AM
I think some of the comments comparing this team to the 1997 version with Bevington are accurate.

One angle on 1997 I've never really seen discussed is whether Schueler should have dumped Bevington mid season- anyone would have been better than him to give that team the best chance to win and he was gone at the end of the season any way.

I think that's the move that would give this edition of the White Sox the best chance to win in a very weak division. Unfortunately- Guillen is another long term contract they cannot dump since he's signed through next year.

The one move they're considering is trading the relatively cheap/young All Star RF- TCQ is a flawed player- but he'll deliver 35 HR's and 100+ RBIs at a bargain price. Which this team desperately needs thanks to $55M of non-movable payroll (Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Teahen, AJ) courtesy of Kenny Williams- much of which we are saddled with all the way through 2013 and beyond.

Somehow- in less than 24 months (starting with Peavy)- KW has built a horribly overpriced roster- with long term contracts other teams were desperate to unload (Peavy, Rios), plus the Dunn and Teahen disasters.

russ99
07-12-2011, 09:58 AM
The one move they're considering is trading the relatively cheap/young All Star RF- TCQ is a flawed player- but he'll deliver 35 HR's and 100+ RBIs at a bargain price. Which this team desperately needs thanks to $55M of non-movable payroll (Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Teahen, AJ) courtesy of Kenny Williams- much of which we are saddled with all the way through 2013 and beyond.

Somehow- in less than 24 months (starting with Peavy)- KW has built a horribly overpriced roster- with long term contracts other teams were desperate to unload (Peavy, Rios), plus the Dunn and Teahen disasters.

Except that Quentin is going into his last arb year and is now a $5M player. With free agency looming in a year in a half, they have to decide if his streakiness is worth paying top dollar for. Next year he's looking at a $6.5-7.5M salary with a decent second half, and $10M+ in his FA year.

I wouldn't be opposed to a Quentin trade as long as we get a young athletic position player who can hit for average in return.

AZChiSoxFan
07-12-2011, 09:59 AM
Ozzie is in town running a series of camps for kids with the Bulls/Sox Academy. He will be in Mt. Greenwood today.

I feel badly for those kids.

russ99
07-12-2011, 10:02 AM
I feel badly for those kids.

Real classy. I would have killed to have a day with a big league manager as a kid.

doublem23
07-12-2011, 10:24 AM
Real classy. I would have killed to have a day with a big league manager as a kid.

Then they should have sent a big league manager in lieu of Ozzie.

CLR01
07-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Then they should have sent a big league manager in lieu of Ozzie.


Stop, you're going to make the Ozzie fans cry.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2011, 10:32 AM
Well Cowley today wrote that Kenny wants to fire coaches but JR has said no for now. Also wrote that Quentin is being looked at by Atlanta, Philadelphia and the Giants but Kenny has said no for now.

Lip

CLR01
07-12-2011, 10:34 AM
I wouldn't be opposed to a Quentin trade as long as we get a young athletic position player who can hit for average in return.

Wonder if we could turn that player into a poor fielding, all or nothing "power" hitter before the season is up.

kufram
07-12-2011, 10:38 AM
So now Ozzie isn't even fit to work with kids?.. even though they clearly like being around him? Wow.

Rocky Soprano
07-12-2011, 10:49 AM
I'm starting to believe that no matter what, Ozzie will be here through the rest of the season. Hell, he will probably be extended at the end of the season.

If you have a facebook and are in the group of fans that would like to see Ozzie fired:

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Fire-Ozzie-Guillen/144344748977442

kittle42
07-12-2011, 10:56 AM
Well Cowley today wrote that Kenny wants to fire coaches but JR has said no for now. Also wrote that Quentin is being looked at by Atlanta, Philadelphia and the Giants but Kenny has said no for now.

I hate this team right now.

Crestani
07-12-2011, 11:14 AM
Well Cowley today wrote that Kenny wants to fire coaches but JR has said no for now. Also wrote that Quentin is being looked at by Atlanta, Philadelphia and the Giants but Kenny has said no for now.

Lip


JR says no for now because JR most likely will fire Kenny along with them at year end..!!

eriqjaffe
07-12-2011, 11:15 AM
I'm starting to believe that no matter what, Ozzie will be here through the rest of the season. Hell, he will probably be extended at the end of the season,The Sox picked up Ozzie's 2012 option back in January.

DickAllen72
07-12-2011, 11:16 AM
I for one was shocked that KW didn't fire Ozzie right after Sunday's game. Regardless if you like Ozzie or not, are you surprised that Ozzie is still with us?
He's in Chicago attending "Ozzie Camp" or something like that for kids Monday and Tuesday. Look for him to be fired on Wednesday or Thursday if KW/JR are serious about salvaging the rest of this season and making a run for the playoffs.

DickAllen72
07-12-2011, 11:18 AM
Well Cowley today wrote that Kenny wants to fire coaches but JR has said no for now. Also wrote that Quentin is being looked at by Atlanta, Philadelphia and the Giants but Kenny has said no for now.

Lip
Assuming Cowley isn't talking/writing out of hiss ass again, JR sucks.

voodoochile
07-12-2011, 11:23 AM
Nope not surprised. I expect minimal changes if the completely fall out by deadline and Ozzie wont be one of them.

Soxfest
07-12-2011, 11:29 AM
JR would NOT allow even 1 coach to be fired at the break let alone Guillen. JR deserves low crowds and everything else that comes along with having no guts to make a change!:angry:

Rocky Soprano
07-12-2011, 11:41 AM
The Sox picked up Ozzie's 2012 option back in January.

Yeah I know, they will probably extend him beyond that.

sunofgold
07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
People want OG fired and fired with ??? With who? If you fire OG at this point, you probably are going to have Cora as your manager for the rest of the season. If Cora had been manager since the beginning of this year, do you really think that he would have guided us to a better record at this point?

I want OG to continue to be our manager. I think that he understand this team and organization very well. I guess that majority want to him to go. If that is the case, I would want to have a good plan in place with the right manager for this team. Haven't heard any names though except for the obvious Cora.

If you fire OG then he has been mentioned for the Marlin's job next year. Thus, he possibly has a contingency plan, but do we have one if we fire Ozzie?

Personally, I rather have KW replaced with Rick Hahn. KW was outstanding in 2005. But since then he has saddled us with too many rich contracts and traded away too much good young pitching.

billcissell
07-12-2011, 11:46 AM
Am I surprised Ozzie is still here?

Absolutely not. Reinsdorf is known to be very loyal to his employees, almost to a fault. And I'm not sure that firing the Blizzard, especially at this point in time, serves any real purpose.

Ozzie, Williams and the coaching staff will continue to be employed through the end of this season, regardless of how this all ends up.

I am mildly surprised they didn't throw someone under the bus. Walker would be a prime target, although again I'm not sure it would serve any positive purpose.

Let's see how the rest of the 2011 season plays out. Personally, if we end up below .500 come October, Kenny Williams may want to think about updating his resume.

DickAllen72
07-12-2011, 11:47 AM
JR would NOT allow even 1 coach to be fired at the break let alone Guillen. JR deserves low crowds and every thing else that comes along with having no guts to make a change!:angry:
I wouldn't pay another dime to watch this team. I'll start going to games again when JR shows he puts the fans and the team's success over his cronies.

And if KW isn't even allowed to fire a coach let alone the manager, I can't hold him responsible for the failures on the field. He at least deserves a shot at hiring a manager or coaches he feels can get the players to perform to their potential before he is held accountable for acquiring these players and putting together this roster.

But with JR, no one is held accountable except maybe the fans. When they stop showing up to support this garbage, he'll blame them again. If no significant changes are made, I hope the Sox average less than 15,000 per game until they go on an extended tear, which is unlikely.

nug0hs
07-12-2011, 11:52 AM
Personally, I rather have KW replaced with Rick Hahn. KW was outstanding in 2005. But since then he has saddled us with too many rich contracts and traded away too much good young pitching.

^This. Rick Hahn > KW x1000.

/endthread

Soxfest
07-12-2011, 11:56 AM
I wouldn't pay another dime to watch this team. I'll start going to games again when JR shows he puts the fans and the team's success over his cronies.

And if KW isn't even allowed to fire a coach let alone the manager, I can't hold him responsible for the failures on the field. He at least deserves a shot at hiring a manager or coaches he feels can get the players to perform to their potential before he is held accountable for acquiring these players and putting together this roster.

But with JR, no one is held accountable except maybe the fans. When they stop showing up to support this garbage, he'll blame them again. If no significant changes are made, I hope the Sox average less than 15,000 per game until they go on an extended tear, which is unlikely.

You are correct it will be fans fault 100%............Sox brass never looks in the mirror top down!

doublem23
07-12-2011, 11:56 AM
^This. Rick Hahn > KW x1000.

/endthread

Based on what, exactly? Those great contracts he doled out to Dunn and Teahen?

Danryan
07-12-2011, 12:02 PM
Ozzie is a great manager, with underachieving players. He should get extended soon.

soxfanreggie
07-12-2011, 12:15 PM
Not at all. But I am surprised that Walker is still here, considering our hitters are in the bottom 25% of all hitting stats in the AL.


Yeah, I was surprised with this one.

#1swisher
07-12-2011, 12:16 PM
Ozzie is in town running a series of camps for kids with the Bulls/Sox Academy. He will be in Mt. Greenwood today.

#13

http://lockerz.com/s/119513607

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-12-2011, 01:15 PM
Am I the only one who understands, that to a big extent, the manager can only do so much? Given the problems with this team (supposed good players under achieving) I would not place too much blame on Ozzie. If you hate the roster, that is more of a Kenny problem then Ozzie.

Maybe I feel this way given that I am on a baseball team and not just a spectator...

You can lead a horse to water, can't make it drink.

TheOldRoman
07-12-2011, 01:25 PM
Am I the only one who understands, that to a big extent, the manager can only do so much? Given the problems with this team (supposed good players under achieving) I would not place too much blame on Ozzie. If you hate the roster, that is more of a Kenny problem then Ozzie.

Maybe I feel this way given that I am on a baseball team and not just a spectator...

You can lead a horse to water, can't make it drink.The players underacheiving is more the fault of the GM than the manager?:scratch:

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-12-2011, 01:35 PM
The players underacheiving is more the fault of the GM than the manager?:scratch:

That is not what I am saying. The players underacheiving is more the players fault than the managers. The roster is more the GM than the manger.

Yes, a manager, coaches, etc. should work with players if there is a known problem. However, I have seen with my own eyes guys who have gotten help from a coach but just cannot adjust.

Should a teacher get fired if a student just doesn't give a ****? I have had bad teachers but I have also seen ****ty students who don't care.

LITTLE NELL
07-12-2011, 01:41 PM
The players underacheiving is more the fault of the GM than the manager?:scratch:

The way it looks is that JR is putting the blame more on the players than he is with Ozzie and Kenny which is understandable since the players without a doubt have underachieved. The thing is that this has been going on for awhile now and somewhere the manager has to be held somewhat accountable for the performance of the team since mid-2006. Heck, George Steinbrenner would have fired Ozzie 4 or 5 times already.

Rocky Soprano
07-12-2011, 01:44 PM
Should a teacher get fired if a student just doesn't give a ****? I have had bad teachers but I have also seen ****ty students who don't care.

If the teacher is unable to reach the students year after year, yes you do fire the teacher. If the students don't give a **** you should ask why they don't give a ****. Could it be because the teacher lost the classroom?

BleacherBandit
07-12-2011, 01:51 PM
If the teacher is unable to reach the students year after year, yes you do fire the teacher. If the students don't give a **** you should ask why they don't give a ****. Could it be because the teacher lost the classroom?

I'm sorry, but Adam Dunn isn't hitting .160 because he subconciously wants to stick it to Ozzie or any other coach. True, the coaching staff is there for a reason if the players can't perform. But they can only do so much.

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-12-2011, 01:54 PM
If the teacher is unable to reach the students year after year, yes you do fire the teacher. If the students don't give a **** you should ask why they don't give a ****. Could it be because the teacher lost the classroom?

Maybe... I see too many kids who did not care in school. CPS blows because most of the kids do not care.

Either way, more times than none it is the player. The White Sox were good in 2005. 2006 was good but damn three great teams. 2007, injuries. 2008 got in there. 2009, up and down. 2010 and 2011 is underachieving. The White Sox need more players in their prime. I have not been impressed with their roster to be honest since 2004. 2005 we know what happened but on paper, that roster wasn't exciting but it pulled it off. We do not have to be the Yankees but rushed rookies and guys who once were awesome but aren't is just blah (Griff Jr., Omar, etc.)

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-12-2011, 01:55 PM
I'm sorry, but Adam Dunn isn't hitting .160 because he subconciously wants to stick it to Ozzie or any other coach. True, the coaching staff is there for a reason if the players can't perform. But they can only do so much.

Thank you! I was with a hitting coach yesterday and he was trying to help a player and when the player went up to bat he asked the coach to carefully watch his at-bat. The coach said all the right things but he wasn't as the plate...

Rocky Soprano
07-12-2011, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry, but Adam Dunn isn't hitting .160 because he subconciously wants to stick it to Ozzie or any other coach. True, the coaching staff is there for a reason if the players can't perform. But they can only do so much.

What was the excuse last year?
Why does this team start the season so poorly just about every year?
Why does this team make pitchers with ERA's over 5 look like Cy Young?
Why does this team lay down for the Twins every single year?

I doubt the answer is Adam Dunn.

This team needs a new direction badly. You aren't going to get rid of every single player, you get rid of the person "steering" the ship.

RKMeibalane
07-12-2011, 02:41 PM
Well Cowley today wrote that Kenny wants to fire coaches but JR has said no for now. Also wrote that Quentin is being looked at by Atlanta, Philadelphia and the Giants but Kenny has said no for now.

Lip

Trading Quentin sounds great if the Sox can get someone like Domonic Brown in return, though I find it hard to believe the Phillies would trade one of their top prospects. We'll see.

kittle42
07-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Trading Quentin sounds great if the Sox can get someone like Domonic Brown in return, though I find it hard to believe the Phillies would trade one of their top prospects. We'll see.

Man, that would be a great trade. The Phils are kind of desperate for OFs, though, with Ibanez so terrible.

captain54
07-12-2011, 03:47 PM
I'm sorry, but Adam Dunn isn't hitting .160 because he subconciously wants to stick it to Ozzie or any other coach. True, the coaching staff is there for a reason if the players can't perform. But they can only do so much.

We're going on the 6th year now where the coaching staff and manager are not at fault because the players are underperforming, with a few exceptions. So what gives?

The other side of the coin is that the players aren't underperforming at all, they are performing right at their capability level, the GM simply overestimated their talent and ability.

Either way, you could make a case for both the GM and the field manager to be held responsible. However, its much easier for JR, Rongey, and the organization to throw a player under the bus, rather than any coach, Ozzie or KW, individuals whom they feels have dedicated years of loyal service to the organization.

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-12-2011, 03:55 PM
C54...

I agree with what you are saying. In the case of the White Sox, I blame the roster (I guess KW then) more than Ozzie/coaching staff.

I am not saying Walker in the best but who on here is to say he doesn't do **** for the players and tried to help him out?

jdm2662
07-12-2011, 04:02 PM
If any move was to be made, I wasn't expecting any announcement until at least Wednesday.

Second, I want Ozzie fired as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to lose sleep if he is not fired. This is the simple fact I don't think he's going to get fired in the middle of the season. The only wacking I think has a chance was Walker. However, if neither happen, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. I will simply find something else to do the rest of the summer.

Third, I do not believe a word that comes from "sources", especially from Cowley. When Cowley sites sources that doesn't have the last name of Gullien, I will continue to ignore him.

captain54
07-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I am not saying Walker in the best but who on here is to say he doesn't do **** for the players and tried to help him out?

This has been discussed an awful lot, KID, and most who are in favor of trying a different hitting coach never really, for the most part, question
Walker's effort. A person can try very hard to be effective, that doesn't always translate into them getting the job done.

chisoxfanatic
07-12-2011, 04:13 PM
For some reason, people look at this as if it's a positive. Many people see it as the problem, though. The entire division blows, and we're barely treading water. I'm not sure you can even call it that, because we easily have the worst division record of any team in the Central. Hell, there's only one team in all of baseball who's played their own division worse than the Sox, and that's the Orioles (they have an excuse).
I think that is slightly skewed BECAUSE of how badly we play against the Twins. We have shown we can at least win some games with KC and Detroit didn't start regularly winning games against us until late last year. The Twins are single-handily keeping us down here.

DumpJerry
07-12-2011, 04:19 PM
The Sox are over .500 against teams that are over .500. That bodes well for the upcoming games with the Tigers and Tribe.

eriqjaffe
07-12-2011, 04:26 PM
The Sox are over .500 against teams that are over .500. That bodes well for the upcoming games with the Tigers and Tribe.As well as for the playoffs.

JermaineDye05
07-12-2011, 05:15 PM
The Sox are over .500 against teams that are over .500. That bodes well for the upcoming games with the Tigers and Tribe.

Aside from the fact that the only team in their division that they've shown the ability to beat is the Indians.

Wouldn't be surprised if they stay true to their mediocrity and only play .500 against the two.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2011, 05:57 PM
1-5 vs. Detroit this year and Verlander goes Friday night.

Just sayin'

Lip

nitetrain8601
07-12-2011, 06:36 PM
This is my thing, if you are one of those who believe the manager and coaches don't really affect underperforming players, then why has Ozzie gotten the same result outside of 2 years that he's been here with completely different teams? Swisher and Cabrera underperformed the years they were here, but did just fine and dandy before and after they left?

Why does PK say or at least strongly imply the Sox tune out Ozzie and when Ozzie's mad, just say "That's just Ozzie being Ozzie." As if to say, "Don't pay any attention to him ranting."

Why does this team take on the attitude that the Twins are a better team than us, even if they are much worse, on paper and in the standings?

I'll tell you why, Ozzie doesn't have control of this lockerroom anymore. And the other coaches really don't do much at all. Baines looks like he's sleeping half the time. Cox is halfway decent. Coop is the one you can make a case for, does his fair share. Don't even get me started on Walker. For the most part, this whole coaching staff is pretty bad.

Remember, KW has changed this team up significantly since '05, and we end up with the same result - We can't beat the Twins, we can't hit a rookie or junkball pitcher, we use Loogy's as setup men, and Ozzie ranting about how he has to take the blame. When I change the players, then yes, you do have to take the blame.

Last, but not least, the Astros switched managers in '04, and they went on a surge the second half of the season. So yes, coaching does change and affect the team. Also understand, Ozzie may still be a good manager, but he does not fit here anymore. It maddens me that JR doesn't see that. One thing has to give though, either the team is blown up, or the coaching staff is fired.

PS, I don't see Walker ever getting fired unless the new manager demands he is not part of the staff similar to Tom Thibideau and Pete Myers this past year.

A. Cavatica
07-12-2011, 07:16 PM
I don't think we know exactly how the current management team is failing, but they are failing spectacularly. And I don't expect it to change because is JR is too old and impotent to care about winning any more.

SBSoxFan
07-12-2011, 10:02 PM
For some reason, people look at this as if it's a positive. Many people see it as the problem, though. The entire division blows, and we're barely treading water. I'm not sure you can even call it that, because we easily have the worst division record of any team in the Central. Hell, there's only one team in all of baseball who's played their own division worse than the Sox, and that's the Orioles (they have an excuse).

From a purely entertainment standpoint, being within striking distance going into the summer is a positive. In addition, positives can be drawn from the fact that they seemingly couldn't play any worse. Of course, the same can also be seen as a negative. In fact, the Sox have played substantially better against the AL East and West than against the AL Central. Is that a bad thing, or does it suggest the Sox can and will eventually stop playing down to the competition?

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2011, 12:11 AM
Regarding the original question, I wasn't surprised in the least.

tstrike2000
07-13-2011, 12:16 AM
A lot of things about this organization don't make sense and shouldn't surprise anyone.

Rocky Soprano
07-13-2011, 09:16 AM
Third, I do not believe a word that comes from "sources", especially from Cowley. When Cowley sites sources that doesn't have the last name of Gullien, I will continue to ignore him.

Do you expect him to come out and say one of the Guillen's told him?
As much as I hate Cowley, he's probably one of a VERY few who has "sources."

palehozenychicty
07-13-2011, 09:41 AM
I'm not surprised that Oz is still around. I am surprised that nothing has happened with Walker at the minimum. If Cowley's report is even close, then wow.

7YrIj4I7ecg

kaufsox
07-13-2011, 10:02 AM
If the teacher is unable to reach the students year after year, yes you do fire the teacher. If the students don't give a **** you should ask why they don't give a ****. Could it be because the teacher lost the classroom?

At this point of their career, professional athletes, still need a teacher, then they aren't very good.

Rocky Soprano
07-13-2011, 10:36 AM
At this point of their career, professional athletes, still need a teacher, then they aren't very good.

Never said they needed a teacher, just using his analogy.
Are you saying they don't need coaches?

JC456
07-13-2011, 12:07 PM
I find it funny that most posters and radio jocks state that a hitting coach really offers nothing to the players, and in the next breadth admire the work Pitching Coach Don Cooper does, and, how much influence Coop has on the pitchers. How can that be? Isn't throwing the ball in the same catagorie as hitting the ball? Don't all Pitchers know how to throw?

I got a kick out watching the All Star game last night and comments made when Curtis Grandersen came up to hit. The broadcasters admired the way the new Yankee hitting coach has helped Grandersen achieve his potential. I said to myself, what? Hitting coaches can't help everyone knows how to hit! How can that be, that's what I hear in Chicago all the time.

No more than will I accept the rhetoric that hitting coaches don't add value and I am now convinced that Walker is our hitting problem. Our hitters are all too similar in their struggles to say it isn't him!

Whew, I got that off my chest.

Brian26
07-13-2011, 12:19 PM
I find it funny that most posters and radio jocks state that a hitting coach really offers nothing to the players, and in the next breadth admire the work Pitching Coach Don Cooper does, and, how much influence Coop has on the pitchers. How can that be? Isn't throwing the ball in the same catagorie as hitting the ball? Don't all Pitchers know how to throw?

I got a kick out watching the All Star game last night and comments made when Curtis Grandersen came up to hit. The broadcasters admired the way the new Yankee hitting coach has helped Grandersen achieve his potential. I said to myself, what? Hitting coaches can't help everyone knows how to hit! How can that be, that's what I hear in Chicago all the time.

No more than will I accept the rhetoric that hitting coaches don't add value and I am now convinced that Walker is our hitting problem. Our hitters are all too similar in their struggles to say it isn't him!

Whew, I got that off my chest.

I don't think anyone has said that "hitting coaches can't help batters." The idea is that hitting coaches can help some batters. Perhaps something between Granderson and his new coach just clicked in NY. That doesn't mean everyone on the Yankees is batting .400 this year, and that doesn't mean that the same coach could work wonders with the Sox lineup. The consensus around baseball is that hitting coaches are somewhat interchangeable. Bernstein talks about this often, but the idea is that you could throw every hitting coach's name in a hat and pick them for new teams, and at the end of the season the results probably wouldn't be that much different. Even the most lauded coaches (Charlie Lau, Hriniak) that taught a "philosophy" about hitting (ie using the top hand more, keeping your top hand on the bat through release) had a fair number of detractors on their teams.

Pitching coaches, on the otherhand, CAN teach a philosophy about pitching across the board that every pitcher on a staff can incorporate, and there are more easily discernable results of a pitching coach on a staff.

russ99
07-13-2011, 06:29 PM
This is my thing, if you are one of those who believe the manager and coaches don't really affect underperforming players, then why has Ozzie gotten the same result outside of 2 years that he's been here with completely different teams? Swisher and Cabrera underperformed the years they were here, but did just fine and dandy before and after they left?

Which year are you lumping in with 2005? In 2006 we had more wins than in 2008, and we had the same last year not counting game 163.

Why look at division titles when determining "the same result" as a failure by Ozzie?

I see a title in 2005, the same results in 2006, 08, 10 (one year we got lucky that nobody won 90+ games); mediocre results in 04, 09, this year so far, and bad results in 07.

Especially considering we had swiss-cheese like rosters in 2007, 08, 09 and 10.

A. Cavatica
07-13-2011, 09:09 PM
The idea is that hitting coaches can help some batters.

With all the money they're squandering on Dunn and Rios, they ought to find a hitting coach that can help those batters.

Hell, for that kind of money, each and every hitter ought to have his own personal hitting coach.

When Frank Thomas didn't get along with the Sox hitting coach (I forget who it was at the time), didn't he go and work with Hriniak on the side? Why don't we see that happening with Rios and Dunn? Is it an idea that somebody suggested and somebody vetoed?

Daver
07-13-2011, 09:37 PM
With all the money they're squandering on Dunn and Rios, they ought to find a hitting coach that can help those batters.

Hell, for that kind of money, each and every hitter ought to have his own personal hitting coach.

When Frank Thomas didn't get along with the Sox hitting coach (I forget who it was at the time), didn't he go and work with Hriniak on the side? Why don't we see that happening with Rios and Dunn? Is it an idea that somebody suggested and somebody vetoed?

Frank paid Hriniak out of his own pocket to come out of retirement to help him get his timing back, because no other hitting coach could help him with the discipline they did not understand.

DumpJerry
07-13-2011, 09:41 PM
When Frank Thomas didn't get along with the Sox hitting coach (I forget who it was at the time), didn't he go and work with Hriniak on the side? Why don't we see that happening with Rios and Dunn? Is it an idea that somebody suggested and somebody vetoed?
They won't have to pay for a personal coach to give them tips and pointers.








A WSI membership is free.

Frater Perdurabo
07-13-2011, 10:02 PM
Especially considering we had swiss-cheese like rosters in 2007, 08, 09 and 10.

I'll give you that the 2007 and 2009 rosters were flawed, but the 2008 roster was stout. Paulie sucked for four months due to injury, and Swisher sucked all year, but there can be no doubt that KW assembled a great roster and that team mashed from mid-May through September. The team even overcame the Crede, Quentin and Contreras injuries. Even the weak-hitting BA and Wise combined to hit 17 homers, which is more than Rios will hit this year.

BUT...

A good manager can win you two or three close games in a season. The Sox had four one-run losses to the Twins in 2008, including two in that late September series in Minnesota. Winning any of those four one-run losses would have made Game 163 unnecessary, and would have put Danks in line to start Game 1 against the Rays.

I blame Ozzie for failing to out-manage Ron Gardenhire in just ONE of those four one-run losses.

SBSoxFan
07-13-2011, 10:19 PM
They won't have to pay for a personal coach to give them tips and pointers.








A WSI membership is free.

:roflmao:

The extra spacing was a great touch!

A. Cavatica
07-13-2011, 10:31 PM
Frank paid Hriniak out of his own pocket to come out of retirement to help him get his timing back, because no other hitting coach could help him with the discipline they did not understand.

In all seriousness, if they aren't going to fire Walker, why don't they at least pay for the one guy who can fix Dunn (whomever it is)? It would be chump change.

Dan H
07-14-2011, 04:19 AM
I don't think anyone has said that "hitting coaches can't help batters." The idea is that hitting coaches can help some batters. Perhaps something between Granderson and his new coach just clicked in NY. That doesn't mean everyone on the Yankees is batting .400 this year, and that doesn't mean that the same coach could work wonders with the Sox lineup. The consensus around baseball is that hitting coaches are somewhat interchangeable. Bernstein talks about this often, but the idea is that you could throw every hitting coach's name in a hat and pick them for new teams, and at the end of the season the results probably wouldn't be that much different. Even the most lauded coaches (Charlie Lau, Hriniak) that taught a "philosophy" about hitting (ie using the top hand more, keeping your top hand on the bat through release) had a fair number of detractors on their teams.

Pitching coaches, on the otherhand, CAN teach a philosophy about pitching across the board that every pitcher on a staff can incorporate, and there are more easily discernable results of a pitching coach on a staff.

Then why have hitting coaches at all? Don't fill the position and save some money.

Having said that, I think firing Walker would help people feel better but not really solve anything. Rios, Pierre and Dunn just maybe on the downside of their careers and no coach is going to change that. Quentin shows some flashes of ability but really has not shown his potential since his '08 injury.

I think a lot of frustration comes from seeing a lack of thinking at the plate. Hitters aren't taking what the pitchers are giving them and there seems to be a lot of swinging for the fences when the hitter should just worry about getting the ball in play. This team could be in first place with a better offensive execution. Instead, it is in the middle of the pack of a lousy division. It has reached the point that I don't want to see the Sox come up with runners in scoring position.

Frontman
07-14-2011, 08:17 AM
Goes to show that even Peter Gammons doesn't know everything when it comes to baseball.

If the Sox led Ozzie go; do it:

a: after the season

and

b: immediately. Don't do the "wait until Thanksgiving so we won't get the bad press" routine.

kaufsox
07-14-2011, 09:12 AM
Never said they needed a teacher, just using his analogy.
Are you saying they don't need coaches?

I think they do, but as to the efficacy of the coaches and managers isn't that great.

southside rocks
07-14-2011, 09:22 AM
Goes to show that even Peter Gammons doesn't know everything when it comes to baseball.



Heresy!! :tongue:

I hope Ozzie will be managing the White Sox for many years to come. No teal.

RKMeibalane
07-14-2011, 10:18 AM
With all the money they're squandering on Dunn and Rios, they ought to find a hitting coach that can help those batters.

Hell, for that kind of money, each and every hitter ought to have his own personal hitting coach.

When Frank Thomas didn't get along with the Sox hitting coach (I forget who it was at the time), didn't he go and work with Hriniak on the side? Why don't we see that happening with Rios and Dunn? Is it an idea that somebody suggested and somebody vetoed?

The hitting coach in question was Von Joshua. Frank worked with Walt before the 2000 season, and again in '03, when the incompetent Gary Ward was Sox hitting instructor.

kittle42
07-14-2011, 10:48 AM
and again in '03, when the incompetent Gary Ward was Sox hitting instructor.

He wasn't incompetent - you just had no idea what he did, and players didn't listen to him!

Frontman
07-14-2011, 12:32 PM
Heresy!! :tongue:

I hope Ozzie will be managing the White Sox for many years to come. No teal.

Used to feel that way about Ozzie, now I don't know. Something needs to be done.

nitetrain8601
07-14-2011, 05:51 PM
Which year are you lumping in with 2005? In 2006 we had more wins than in 2008, and we had the same last year not counting game 163.

Why look at division titles when determining "the same result" as a failure by Ozzie?

I see a title in 2005, the same results in 2006, 08, 10 (one year we got lucky that nobody won 90+ games); mediocre results in 04, 09, this year so far, and bad results in 07.

Especially considering we had swiss-cheese like rosters in 2007, 08, 09 and 10.

Hold the phone. '06 had a team that should've won 100 games. That team was flat out stacked. They had a hot 1st half which is what we expected, and they faltered.

'07 they had a decent team, certainly enough to win the division on paper. It was an injury riddled season and everything went bad all at the same time. I place a lot of the blame on Ozzie for attempting to play Rob Mackowiak in CF, even after Rob said he wasn't comfortable there. This year, I'll also blame KW for the failed bullpen experiment minus the first month of the season.

'08 they had a better team than in '07. Extremely talented with the right mix of youth and vets. Cabrera and Swisher had down years as the Blizzard couldn't get them to respond. Also Ozzie couldn't manage games against the Twins, but should've been working as their marketing coordinator the way he slurped them up and down. The Sox almost blew the playoffs that year, but the Twins choked even more and Alexei Ramirez killed Detroit.

'09 they had the pitching, and supposed hitting though there was some holes. They certainly were good enough to win the division on paper though.

'10 The sox had more than enough pitching to get the job done. Ozzie got his rotating DH and it blew up in his face, big time. Sox, again, should have won the division.

Last, but not least, keep in mind expectations change each year and even month to month. For example, if the Sox were to get Albert Pujols before the season began, they would be projected to win way more games than what they won last year or the years before. Yes, there is a ceiling that you eventually end up meeting, but the Sox are nowhere close to it. 90 wins in 08 is not the same as 90 wins in 06. There isn't some magic number in baseball wins that a manager should have to keep his job. But he should be able to get the best out of his team, for the most part, and make smart and sound decisions. he should be able to put the team in the best position to succeed and not have his players tune him out. The last part is speculation by me based upon what I've heard in interviews, but Ozzie definitely hasn't gotten the best out of this team, nor has put them in the best position to succeed.

voodoochile
07-14-2011, 09:17 PM
Hold the phone. '06 had a team that should've won 100 games. That team was flat out stacked. They had a hot 1st half which is what we expected, and they faltered.

'07 they had a decent team, certainly enough to win the division on paper. It was an injury riddled season and everything went bad all at the same time. I place a lot of the blame on Ozzie for attempting to play Rob Mackowiak in CF, even after Rob said he wasn't comfortable there. This year, I'll also blame KW for the failed bullpen experiment minus the first month of the season.

'08 they had a better team than in '07. Extremely talented with the right mix of youth and vets. Cabrera and Swisher had down years as the Blizzard couldn't get them to respond. Also Ozzie couldn't manage games against the Twins, but should've been working as their marketing coordinator the way he slurped them up and down. The Sox almost blew the playoffs that year, but the Twins choked even more and Alexei Ramirez killed Detroit.

'09 they had the pitching, and supposed hitting though there was some holes. They certainly were good enough to win the division on paper though.

'10 The sox had more than enough pitching to get the job done. Ozzie got his rotating DH and it blew up in his face, big time. Sox, again, should have won the division.

Last, but not least, keep in mind expectations change each year and even month to month. For example, if the Sox were to get Albert Pujols before the season began, they would be projected to win way more games than what they won last year or the years before. Yes, there is a ceiling that you eventually end up meeting, but the Sox are nowhere close to it. 90 wins in 08 is not the same as 90 wins in 06. There isn't some magic number in baseball wins that a manager should have to keep his job. But he should be able to get the best out of his team, for the most part, and make smart and sound decisions. he should be able to put the team in the best position to succeed and not have his players tune him out. The last part is speculation by me based upon what I've heard in interviews, but Ozzie definitely hasn't gotten the best out of this team, nor has put them in the best position to succeed.

Check the second half stats for 2006 for Buehrle and Contreras in particular. I think their combined ERA was over 6.5. They both hit the wall hard after all the wear and tear their arms took the previous 15 months.

That's why 2006 failed more than any other reason.

A. Cavatica
07-14-2011, 09:32 PM
Check the second half stats for 2006 for Buehrle and Contreras in particular. I think their combined ERA was over 6.5. They both hit the wall hard after all the wear and tear their arms took the previous 15 months.

That's why 2006 failed more than any other reason.

And Ozzie had a keed named Brandon McCarthy who was the perfect spot starter, yet he never worked him into the rotation.

RKMeibalane
07-14-2011, 09:56 PM
'08 they had a better team than in '07. Extremely talented with the right mix of youth and vets. Cabrera and Swisher had down years as the Blizzard couldn't get them to respond.

The Blizzard? Really?

Brian26
07-14-2011, 10:03 PM
Then why have hitting coaches at all? Don't fill the position and save some money.

You didn't understand what I said. Hitting coaches serve a purpose.

Bob Roarman
07-14-2011, 10:17 PM
It's pointless trying to explain that to some people here. You're talking to a poster that thinks there's a similarity in that if hitting coaches are interchangeable, that must mean pitching coaches are as well. Completely. Different. Couldn't be anymore different. There is soooo much more you can control in pitching and coaching pitchers.

Nellie_Fox
07-14-2011, 11:56 PM
Hold the phone. '06 had a team that should've won 100 games. That team was flat out stacked. They had a hot 1st half which is what we expected, and they faltered.

'07 they had a decent team, certainly enough to win the division on paper. It was an injury riddled season and everything went bad all at the same time. I place a lot of the blame on Ozzie for attempting to play Rob Mackowiak in CF, even after Rob said he wasn't comfortable there. This year, I'll also blame KW for the failed bullpen experiment minus the first month of the season.

'08 they had a better team than in '07. Extremely talented with the right mix of youth and vets. Cabrera and Swisher had down years as the Blizzard couldn't get them to respond. Also Ozzie couldn't manage games against the Twins, but should've been working as their marketing coordinator the way he slurped them up and down. The Sox almost blew the playoffs that year, but the Twins choked even more and Alexei Ramirez killed Detroit.

'09 they had the pitching, and supposed hitting though there was some holes. They certainly were good enough to win the division on paper though.

'10 The sox had more than enough pitching to get the job done. Ozzie got his rotating DH and it blew up in his face, big time. Sox, again, should have won the division.

Last, but not least, keep in mind expectations change each year and even month to month. For example, if the Sox were to get Albert Pujols before the season began, they would be projected to win way more games than what they won last year or the years before. Yes, there is a ceiling that you eventually end up meeting, but the Sox are nowhere close to it. 90 wins in 08 is not the same as 90 wins in 06. There isn't some magic number in baseball wins that a manager should have to keep his job. But he should be able to get the best out of his team, for the most part, and make smart and sound decisions. he should be able to put the team in the best position to succeed and not have his players tune him out. The last part is speculation by me based upon what I've heard in interviews, but Ozzie definitely hasn't gotten the best out of this team, nor has put them in the best position to succeed.If you continue to use Mariotti's name for Guillen, I will put your posts in the Roadhouse where Mariotti posts go.

Lip Man 1
07-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Ozzie was on the plane to Detroit this morning so I guess Gammons was wrong wasn't he?

:D:

Lip

DickAllen72
07-15-2011, 01:11 PM
Ozzie was on the plane to Detroit this morning so I guess Gammons was wrong wasn't he?

:D:

Lip
Only because JR is loyal to a fault towards his cronies.

JermaineDye05
07-15-2011, 06:31 PM
@cst_Cowley (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley) cst_Cowley
"I don’t give a **** I get fired. I’m the only mgr in baseball **** don’t care about getting fired. If I get fired, I didn't do the job." Oz

59 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley/status/91998324122599425) via web

nitetrain8601
07-15-2011, 06:33 PM
If you continue to use Mariotti's name for Guillen, I will put your posts in the Roadhouse where Mariotti posts go.

Sorry. I thought the situation called for it to get my point across. Didn't know it was a banned word and I will avoid the word. Just trying to present the other side of things.

Cheers.

BainesHOF
07-15-2011, 06:51 PM
Bob Brenly would be a good pick to replace Guillen.

dickallen15
07-15-2011, 08:14 PM
@cst_Cowley (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley) cst_Cowley
"I donít give a **** I get fired. Iím the only mgr in baseball **** donít care about getting fired. If I get fired, I didn't do the job." Oz

59 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/cst_Cowley/status/91998324122599425) via web

Isn't this the same guy who was so worried about his 2012 option being picked up last year?

Ozzie says a lot of crap and usually what he says on Monday doesn't jive with what he says on Wednesday which doesn't jive with what he says on Friday.

Daver
07-15-2011, 08:15 PM
Bob Brenly would be a good pick to replace Guillen.


Or not.

JermaineDye05
07-15-2011, 08:16 PM
Isn't this the same guy who was so worried about his 2012 option being picked up last year?

Ozzie says a lot of crap and usually what he says on Monday doesn't jive with what he says on Wednesday which doesn't jive with what he says on Friday.

I speak jive.

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