PDA

View Full Version : Sox taking calls on Jackson


Sockinchisox
07-11-2011, 03:59 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/heyman-on-jackson-marlins-brewers.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

eriqjaffe
07-11-2011, 04:00 PM
Operators are standing by.

SoxSpeed22
07-11-2011, 04:09 PM
I thought Jackson would benefit from having actual continuity but unfortunately, that won't be the case. He still needs something slow to keep hitters off balance.

DirtySox
07-11-2011, 04:25 PM
Hopefully the Sox are able to get something decent back. He's a Type B free agent as of right now and thus worth a supplemental pick if offered arbitration. (Which is a no-brainer with Boras as his agent)

kittle42
07-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Ugh. While he hasn't been any worse than what he's been his entire career, it was still a horrid trade. He couldn't leave soon enough.

Chez
07-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Operators are standing by.

And Khan has offered to drive EJ to the airport.

sunofgold
07-11-2011, 05:10 PM
Hope that we go back to six man rotation. This year he is pitching close to his career stats in ERA, WHIP, and BAA. Hopefully, he has even better second half.

Tragg
07-11-2011, 05:17 PM
Ugh. While he hasn't been any worse than what he's been his entire career, it was still a horrid trade. He couldn't leave soon enough.

Correct - his ERA was 5.16 when Kenny Williams decided to trade our top pitching prospect (plus a solid low minor prospect who is now a top prospect) for him. And his ERA with the Sox has been below his career ERA.

Jackson has performed better than expected with the Sox. It was just a horrific trade.

I'll take 1/2 of what we gave for him.

34 Inch Stick
07-11-2011, 05:31 PM
Swisher Part II

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 05:35 PM
Ugh. While he hasn't been any worse than what he's been his entire career, it was still a horrid trade. He couldn't leave soon enough.

Kenny "The Gambler" Williams has gambled and lost on several of the acquisitions of "big name" players, burning thru otherwise valuable assets on players that have flopped for the Sox. Off the top of my head:

* Edwin Jackson
* Nick Swisher
* Mark Teahen
* Jake Peavy

In each of these KW traded away young inexpensive players for older much more expensive players. I have no troubles with trading away prospects but I hope when your trading away those valuable assets you get value in return. It worked for KW in 2005 but since then it's failed and it's cost the Sox financially, strapping them with high priced players that are tough to unload especially when the player is underperforming.

CHISOXFAN13
07-11-2011, 05:49 PM
Kenny "The Gambler" Williams has gambled and lost on several of the acquisitions of "big name" players, burning thru otherwise valuable assets on players that have flopped for the Sox. Off the top of my head:

* Edwin Jackson
* Nick Swisher
* Mark Teahen
* Jake Peavy

In each of these KW traded away young inexpensive players for older much more expensive players. I have no troubles with trading away prospects but I hope when your trading away those valuable assets you get value in return. It worked for KW in 2005 but since then it's failed and it's cost the Sox financially, strapping them with high priced players that are tough to unload especially when the player is underperforming.

I'll give you the first three, but that deal fpr Peavy was a no-brainer to me. A fformer Cy Young award winner for a No. 4 starter and a pile of **** is a great move for any GM. Peavy hasn't stayed healthy and underperformed, but I'm not blaming Williams for that.

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 05:58 PM
Give him away to the first team that agrees to take on Rios' entire salary with him.

TaylorStSox
07-11-2011, 05:59 PM
I'll give you the first three, but that deal fpr Peavy was a no-brainer to me. A fformer Cy Young award winner for a No. 4 starter and a pile of **** is a great move for any GM. Peavy hasn't stayed healthy and underperformed, but I'm not blaming Williams for that.

The Teahen trade was garbage for garbage anyway. Getz and Fields? Who cares?

KW's made some bad moves, but I can't really be that angry. The only one that I found questionable at the time was Jackson. But, I don't fault him for trading a guy with a B- arm for a guy with an A arm. I'm just sorry it didn't work out.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 06:22 PM
The Teahen trade was garbage for garbage anyway. Getz and Fields? Who cares?

KW's made some bad moves, but I can't really be that angry. The only one that I found questionable at the time was Jackson. But, I don't fault him for trading a guy with a B- arm for a guy with an A arm. I'm just sorry it didn't work out.

Give him away to the first team that agrees to take on Rios' entire salary with him.

I'll give you the first three, but that deal fpr Peavy was a no-brainer to me. A former Cy Young award winner for a No. 4 starter and a pile of **** is a great move for any GM. Peavy hasn't stayed healthy and underperformed, but I'm not blaming Williams for that.

If you're saying bad acquisitions, then add of course Dunn and Rios.

Teahen, I understand was "garbage for garbage" but they can dispose of the "garbage" the Sox sent there (Fields & Getz) but the Sox are stuck with the Royals garbage (Teahen). That is a major difference and highlights why that trade was bad for the Sox.

Peavy, I know what you're saying but that too hurt the Sox. Gave up a lot of young players and got an expensive, untradeable roster spot eater in return. As with the Teahen trade as with the Jackson trade the Sox would be better off had they not made the trade.

PalehosePlanet
07-11-2011, 06:24 PM
My prediction is: Edwin Jackson will be a setup man or closer by the end of next year or early 2013. I'm surprised he's lasted in various rotations this long, actually. The next team he struggles with will hopefully get smart and move him to the back end of the pen.

Hopefully someone gets desperate (Yanks?) and we can move him soon.

Tragg
07-11-2011, 06:34 PM
I wonder who's calling. KW prefers to deal with the NL in-season and it won't be friendly Arizona this time (thank goodness). Won't be the Braves or Phils or Giants. Maybe Colorado or a Central team - PItt, Cincy, Milwaukee.

Dick's idea is best - trade him + Rios for nothing. (if a such a sap GM exists).

Brian26
07-11-2011, 06:41 PM
The Teahen trade was garbage for garbage anyway. Getz and Fields? Who cares?

KW's made some bad moves, but I can't really be that angry. The only one that I found questionable at the time was Jackson. But, I don't fault him for trading a guy with a B- arm for a guy with an A arm. I'm just sorry it didn't work out.

The only bad part of the Teahen trade was the immediate contract extension.

Daver
07-11-2011, 06:47 PM
The veracity of most of what is posted on that site is comparable to a blind squirrel finding a nut.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 06:57 PM
The only bad part of the Teahen trade was the immediate contract extension.

The extension was bad and handcuffed the Sox to Teahen. It could be argued too that the Sox would be better off with (or about the same) Getz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/getzch01.shtml) at 2B over Beckham (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckhgo01.shtml) this season. That was a bad trade made much, much worse by the extension.

DaGame2584
07-11-2011, 07:04 PM
Jackson to the Rangers for Lowe & Borbon?

Tragg
07-11-2011, 07:12 PM
Jackson to the Rangers for Lowe & Borbon?

Junk, really. Bad pitcher and a low obp outfielder with no power. But maybe that's all we can get.

TomBradley72
07-11-2011, 07:27 PM
Teahen, I understand was "garbage for garbage" but they can dispose of the "garbage" the Sox sent there (Fields & Getz) but the Sox are stuck with the Royals garbage (Teahen). That is a major difference and highlights why that trade was bad for the Sox.

Peavy, I know what you're saying but that too hurt the Sox. Gave up a lot of young players and got an expensive, untradeable roster spot eater in return. As with the Teahen trade as with the Jackson trade the Sox would be better off had they not made the trade.

Neither Getz nor Fields would be on the roster- the sin of the Teahen trade was the inexplicable 3 year contract KW gave him before he had played in his 1st regular season game.

Jackson trade? Right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, etc.

NLaloosh
07-11-2011, 07:35 PM
Well, we all know that Jackson has some value. So, it will be intersting to see what Kenny can get.

Based on what he got for Ray Durham, Tadahito Iguchi, Jose Contreras, Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher.....ummm....nothing.

This is not Kenny's forte. As we've all pointed out he prefers to trade the other way - prospects for injured or over the hill veterans.

kittle42
07-11-2011, 07:42 PM
The veracity of most of what is posted on that site is comparable to a blind squirrel finding a nut.

Here, then - is it more believable if one links directly to Heyman's column?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/07/11/first.half/index.html?eref=writers

Dibbs
07-11-2011, 08:01 PM
Beckham, Jackson and Sale for Hudson?

dickallen15
07-11-2011, 08:18 PM
The extension was bad and handcuffed the Sox to Teahen. It could be argued too that the Sox would be better off with (or about the same) Getz (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/getzch01.shtml) at 2B over Beckham (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/beckhgo01.shtml) this season. That was a bad trade made much, much worse by the extension.
I suppose it could be argued if you really wanted the inferior defense and offensive player in the line up.

The trade wasn't bad. The extension was bad.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 08:26 PM
The Sox would have been better off simply releasing Fields and Getz, than trading them for Teahen.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 08:29 PM
Well, we all know that Jackson has some value. So, it will be intersting to see what Kenny can get.

Based on what he got for Ray Durham, Tadahito Iguchi, Jose Contreras, Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher.....ummm....nothing.

This is not Kenny's forte. As we've all pointed out he prefers to trade the other way - prospects for injured or over the hill veterans.

Nick Swisher, a two time loser as the trade ended up being a loser on trade bringing Swisher here and then a loser when the Sox dumped him.

Neither Getz nor Fields would be on the roster- the sin of the Teahen trade was the inexplicable 3 year contract KW gave him before he had played in his 1st regular season game.

Jackson trade? Right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, etc.

The extension, terrible. But I disagree with you about the trade. The trade was bad because KW disposed of otherwise tradeable pieces for someone they didn't need. Think of it this way, the Royals have a starting player from the deal, one that they could release without financial impact or they could potentially trade Getz away. And I bet Royals fans are not thinking they lost on the Teahen trade at this point. They may not love Getz either but if they look at what Teahen has brought to the table for the Sox they are no doubt glad he's gone.

I suppose it could be argued if you really wanted the inferior defense and offensive player in the line up.

The trade wasn't bad. The extension was bad.

Beckham is better defensively. But is Beckham any better than Getz offensively this year?

All this said, I am not the President of the Getz fan club (Stan Getz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Getz), he's cool though). It's just that the Sox would be better off today if they had not made the trade.

Tragg
07-11-2011, 08:33 PM
The extension, terrible. But I disagree with you about the trade. The trade was bad because KW disposed of otherwise tradeable pieces for someone they didn't need. Agree. Fields and Getz were young players, and could have been traded for something needed. Neither is very good now, but that wasn't known for sure then.

The worst trade was the 2nd Swisher trade. There was no one in that package who had the remote possibility of being anything more than a bench hitter or the last man on a pitching staff. it was ridiculous.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 08:36 PM
The Sox would have been better off simply releasing Fields and Getz, than trading them for Teahen.

Thank you!

:bandance:

Even without that extension, seeing Teahen play 3rd base for 52 games last season was cruel and unusual punishment.

Hitmen77
07-11-2011, 08:52 PM
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/07/heyman-on-jackson-marlins-brewers.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

All we'll get is another Jon Adkins or Michael Dubee. In other words, Daniel Hudson and David Holmberg for the next Jon Adkins....with 1 yr/$6-8M of an erratic E. Jackson in between.

White Sox Baseball: Buy High and Sell Low for Talent! Chuck Norris style!!

The only bad part of the Teahen trade was the immediate contract extension.

Yep, it wasn't Getz/Fields for Teahen. It was the inexplicable 3 yr/$14M extension given to Teahen.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 08:52 PM
Agree. Fields and Getz were young players, and could have been traded for something needed. Neither is very good now, but that wasn't known for sure then.

The worst trade was the 2nd Swisher trade. There was no one in that package who had the remote possibility of being anything more than a bench hitter or the last man on a pitching staff. it was ridiculous.

For Swisher:
F. De Los Santos (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/d/delosfa01.shtml)
Gio Gonzalez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzagi01.shtml)
R. Sweeney (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/sweenry01.shtml)
K. Texeira (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/texeika01.shtml)
From Swisher:
W. Betemit (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/betemwi01.shtml)
J. Marquez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/marquje01.shtml)
J. Nunez (http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=nunez-001jho)

The really sad part of the Swisher trades, Swisher is productive for the Yankees. Plus every player involved in that trade is on a 25 man MLB roster, except the one player left in the Sox organization, Nunez.

Brian26
07-11-2011, 08:59 PM
Based on what he got for Ray Durham, Tadahito Iguchi, Jose Contreras, Javier Vazquez and Nick Swisher.....ummm....nothing.

What a completely foolish comment. What in the hell did you expect the Sox to get for Ray Durham (when he was going to leave as a free agent in three months anway and the compensatory picks were different then), broken-down Tadahito Iguchi (who only played another 130 MLB games over the course of *one* season), broken-down Jose Contreras (who, get this, has only started two major league games since the trade), or Javier Vazquez (who was a major league headcase and actually cleared salary that we desperately needed)?

I will agree that Kenny lost the Swisher trade, as bad of an apple he became and was whining about Greg Walker.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2011, 09:05 PM
Can Dirty Sox or anyone else who follows the minor leagues closely check out what the Phils might have to offer.

I was told tonight one of the clubs is Philadelphia and that Jackson's start Saturday could be a showcase-start.

Take it for whatever it's worth.

Lip

blandman
07-11-2011, 09:28 PM
Can Dirty Sox or anyone else who follows the minor leagues closely check out what the Phils might have to offer.

I was told tonight one of the clubs is Philadelphia and that Jackson's start Saturday could be a showcase-start.

Take it for whatever it's worth.

Lip

This site is a tremendous resource. I've linked the Phillies page, but they update their big list of prospects almost daily. http://www.scoutingbook.com/prospects/PHI

DirtySox
07-11-2011, 09:31 PM
Can Dirty Sox or anyone else who follows the minor leagues closely check out what the Phils might have to offer.

I was told tonight one of the clubs is Philadelphia and that Jackson's start Saturday could be a showcase-start.

Take it for whatever it's worth.

Lip

I would start here. (http://www.minorleagueball.com/2011/1/2/1908325/philadelphia-phillies-top-20-prospects-for-2011) It's a preseason list, but if you are looking for players to research it should help. I'm not as familiar with the Phillies system as other teams, but Cosart, Biddle, and May are pitchers of note.

A. Cavatica
07-11-2011, 10:02 PM
If the Phillies have any raw, young players with tremendous power and questionable strike zone judgment, players who are natural designated hitters -- or any 25-year-old relievers who throw 98 and can occasionally strike out as many as they walk -- or really anyone who's slow and bad at getting on base -- they are our natural partners.

Tragg
07-11-2011, 10:04 PM
What a completely foolish comment. What in the hell did you expect the Sox to get for Ray Durham (when he was going to leave as a free agent in three months anway and the compensatory picks were different then), broken-down Tadahito Iguchi (who only played another 130 MLB games over the course of *one* season), broken-down Jose Contreras (who, get this, has only started two major league games since the trade), or Javier Vazquez (who was a major league headcase and actually cleared salary that we desperately needed)?

I will agree that Kenny lost the Swisher trade, as bad of an apple he became and was whining about Greg Walker.

He didn't just "lose" the 2nd Swisher trade; he didn't even give himself a chance to come close in the 2nd Swisher trade. He sold ridiculously low. No one we got had any potential to be even an average major leaguer at all. He took what he thought would be a utility infielder and back of the pen guy.
Javy - how about getting what we gave up for, say, Jackson? Or something close to what we gave up for him?
Contreras - while i agree he had little trade value, Philly has used him in the pen, not in the rotation...he had 67 appearances last year out of the pen.
He hasn't made a winning trade since the Quentin trade. That was a very good trade, Freddie was a very good trade, Danks and Thornton great trades.

Lamp81
07-11-2011, 10:41 PM
1st off, I really wish Jackson could be more consistently good. He does seem to have great stuff some games, and then others it is a real battle. I don't think Coop can fix him. I wish we still had Hudson and never made that trade.

On a personal note, Jackson was really cool with my kids earlier in the season, on kids day. I appreciated that. Seems to be a great guy. That being said, I'd rather have a shut down pitcher who is a complete jerk.

2nd off, I think KW is losing his touch in talent evaluation for waiver pick-ups and trades. The good (Humber, Quentin, and Thornton) are being overshadowed by the bad (Manny Ramirez, Rios, and Peavy).

Time for KW to get a bump to something like a John Paxson position, and give Rick Hahn a shot at GM.

Zakath
07-11-2011, 10:51 PM
Beckham is better defensively. But is Beckham any better than Getz offensively this year?


Getz has a higher average, but Beckham has more RBI and more HR. Beckham's biggest problem is he strikes out a lot more than Getz does.

Given that barring a major collapse, Beckham should win the Gold Glove at 2B, I'd say we made out better with Gordon there over Chris.

DrCrawdad
07-11-2011, 11:05 PM
Getz has a higher average, but Beckham has more RBI and more HR. Beckham's biggest problem is he strikes out a lot more than Getz does.

Given that barring a major collapse, Beckham should win the Gold Glove at 2B, I'd say we made out better with Gordon there over Chris.

Getz has no power, true.

Hits? Getz
2B? Beckham
3B? Getz
HR? Beckham
RBI? Beckham (by 4)
SB? Getz
OBP? Getz

mzh
07-11-2011, 11:21 PM
2nd off, I think KW is losing his touch in talent evaluation for waiver pick-ups and trades. The good (Humber, Quentin, and Thornton) are being overshadowed by the bad (Manny Ramirez, Rios, and Peavy).

Time for KW to get a bump to something like a John Paxson position, and give Rick Hahn a shot at GM.
I don't think it's a change in talent evaluation as much as it's simply a change in luck. Manny was a move that had to be made to stay in contention, because at that point it was clear that they weren't staying in with Mark Kotsay as the DH. I think Kenny knew what Manny was, and it just didn't work out.

We've seen what Peavy can do at his best. Considering what was given up, it was still a considerable upgrade. The salary is one thing, but if he had stayed healthy consistently I doubt he would be in there with Manny and Rios, which I honestly have no explanation for :tongue:

balke
07-11-2011, 11:22 PM
He didn't just "lose" the 2nd Swisher trade; he didn't even give himself a chance to come close in the 2nd Swisher trade. He sold ridiculously low. No one we got had any potential to be even an average major leaguer at all. He took what he thought would be a utility infielder and back of the pen guy.
Javy - how about getting what we gave up for, say, Jackson? Or something close to what we gave up for him?
Contreras - while i agree he had little trade value, Philly has used him in the pen, not in the rotation...he had 67 appearances last year out of the pen.
He hasn't made a winning trade since the Quentin trade. That was a very good trade, Freddie was a very good trade, Danks and Thornton great trades.


Yeah I always thought it was weird noone was banging down the door to get a right fielder with a .753 OPS the previous season.

.219 batting average and 135 strikeouts plus an unattractive salary? Top prospects should've been pouring in by the dozens.

But you're saying the Sox should've held on to the guy who didn't want to play here and who was flat out nasty to watch with under 70 RBI the previous season to see if his stock rose? I think Swisher was a disease for this team - and the Sox were lucky the Yanks took on his salary.

He's a guy who feeds on attention and the limelight - wasn't going to happen here.

balke
07-11-2011, 11:25 PM
Getz has no power, true.

Hits? Getz
2B? Beckham
3B? Getz
HR? Beckham
RBI? Beckham (by 4)
SB? Getz
OBP? Getz

Defense? Beckham
Under contract longer? Beckham
Potential? Beckham
Rookie of the year? Beckham

TaylorStSox
07-11-2011, 11:31 PM
Neither Getz nor Fields would be on the roster- the sin of the Teahen trade was the inexplicable 3 year contract KW gave him before he had played in his 1st regular season game.

Jackson trade? Right up there with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, etc.

Teahen had upside at the time. He has a nice LH stroke with power. He never developed though. I understand why KW was high on him and locked him up. Like I said, I understand his philosophy and dont have problem with it. He has been getting burned far too much though.

I like KW. It is time to move on though.

cards press box
07-11-2011, 11:34 PM
One of the posters on the mlb traderumors website noted that the BABIP for Jackson is .340. Is that true? If so, it would suggest that Jackson's numbers look worse than they actually are. It seems to me that Jackson is similar to the Cubs' Matt Garza. They are the same age and have similar peripheral numbers.

Jon Heyman suggests that Jackson may be the best starter on the market before the trade deadline. I agree. The Sox should get some value for Jackson.

mzh
07-11-2011, 11:41 PM
If the Yankees are desperate enough, I wonder if there's any chance we can nab Montero. I'm not sure how legitimate the hype surrounding him is because of the NY Market, but in terms of prospects he's probably one of the best out there.

DirtySox
07-12-2011, 12:14 AM
One of the posters on the mlb traderumors website noted that the BABIP for Jackson is .340. Is that true? If so, it would suggest that Jackson's numbers look worse than they actually are. It seems to me that Jackson is similar to the Cubs' Matt Garza. They are the same age and have similar peripheral numbers.

Jon Heyman suggests that Jackson may be the best starter on the market before the trade deadline. I agree. The Sox should get some value for Jackson.

He also has a FIP of 3.16 with an xFIP of 3.31. He has indeed pitched better than his ERA indicates. That and the fact that he almost assuredly won't lose Type B status this year means the Sox should get a decent return.

DirtySox
07-12-2011, 12:16 AM
If the Yankees are desperate enough, I wonder if there's any chance we can nab Montero. I'm not sure how legitimate the hype surrounding him is because of the NY Market, but in terms of prospects he's probably one of the best out there.

He's been rather underwhelming this year. Some suggest he might be bored of AAA, but I don't buy it. He's also not going to stick at catcher. The bat could be real special though.

StillMissOzzie
07-12-2011, 12:18 AM
My prediction is: Edwin Jackson will be a setup man or closer by the end of next year or early 2013. I'm surprised he's lasted in various rotations this long, actually. The next team he struggles with will hopefully get smart and move him to the back end of the pen.

Hopefully someone gets desperate (Yanks?) and we can move him soon.

I don't think that Jackson consistenly throws enough strikes to be a late inning guy. But the fact that he is a FA-to-be and a Bora$ client is enough to convince me that Jackson will be gone by the end of July. I hope that the Sox can get some good value for him.

SMO
:gulp:

mcp5185
07-12-2011, 12:29 AM
If the Yankees are desperate enough, I wonder if there's any chance we can nab Montero. I'm not sure how legitimate the hype surrounding him is because of the NY Market, but in terms of prospects he's probably one of the best out there.

I highly doubt the we could get Montero, but the Yankees do have two other talented catcher prospects. Gary Sanchez who is still 18 I think and wouldn't contribute for a while. The other is Austin Romine who I think would be a solid option to explore, and supposedly is the best of the three players defensively.

I"m also curious if one the of the potential teams, could be the Reds. I have heard that they could make a move to bring in some pitching. They have two strong catching prospects in Yasmani Grandal and Devin Mesoraco. Another interesting prospect in their system is Billy Hamilton, a 20 year old speedy middle infielder with 64 stolen bases through 83 games this year in Single A.

If the Phillies are interested in Jackson, the two strengths of their system are pitching and outfield. For outfield, they have a couple of quick, future lead off types in their system, as well as Jonathan Singleton a power hitter probably better suited for 1B.

SoxSpeed22
07-12-2011, 12:45 AM
As far as the Phillies go, Phuture Phillies (http://phuturephillies.com/) is a decent resource. It would seem that outfield and relief pitching are their strengths in that farm system. Most of their outfielders are high ceiling types, like ours, except better. We might get something there.

johnnyg83
07-12-2011, 12:45 AM
What about NL teams? If I was a NL GM I would like the idea of bringing a career AL pitcher with great stuff to the NL. Cardinals? Pirates? Braves?

Tim Hudson, Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay ... obviously nowhere near that talent but still (and I'm prepared for the Zito AL to NL comments)

Tragg
07-12-2011, 12:58 AM
He also has a FIP of 3.16 with an xFIP of 3.31. He has indeed pitched better than his ERA indicates. That and the fact that he almost assuredly won't lose Type B status this year means the Sox should get a decent return.

He's a battler too. He throws a lot of pitches and pitches himself out of a lot of jams. His numbers aren't that bad really.
He's a good pitcher; just expensive and we only got him for 1.5 years. And he isn't "elite".

DirtySox
07-12-2011, 01:01 AM
I highly doubt the we could get Montero, but the Yankees do have two other talented catcher prospects. Gary Sanchez who is still 18 I think and wouldn't contribute for a while. The other is Austin Romine who I think would be a solid option to explore, and supposedly is the best of the three players defensively.

I"m also curious if one the of the potential teams, could be the Reds. I have heard that they could make a move to bring in some pitching. They have two strong catching prospects in Yasmani Grandal and Devin Mesoraco. Another interesting prospect in their system is Billy Hamilton, a 20 year old speedy middle infielder with 64 stolen bases through 83 games this year in Single A.

If the Phillies are interested in Jackson, the two strengths of their system are pitching and outfield. For outfield, they have a couple of quick, future lead off types in their system, as well as Jonathan Singleton a power hitter probably better suited for 1B.


I'm on board the Grandal train. I've posted about it for a while now. The Sox should take advantage of the catching glut that Cinci has. Meso is closer and higher on the depth chart, and many feel Yasmani will be a trade piece. I was a huge fan of his before the draft, and the Sox were set to make that pick but the Reds popped him one before us. I'm not sure Edwin would get it done. Danks might though.

I'm a Hamilton fan too. Kid is a legitimate burner. Bourjos fast. Hasn't been that impressive in Low-A though.

TheOldRoman
07-12-2011, 09:10 AM
Getz has a higher average, but Beckham has more RBI and more HR. Beckham's biggest problem is he strikes out a lot more than Getz does.

Given that barring a major collapse, Beckham should win the Gold Glove at 2B, I'd say we made out better with Gordon there over Chris.Beckham's biggest problem is that he has an incompetant hitting coach who is doing his best to ruin Gordon's career (not on purpose, mind you). Gordon has loads of potential, but it isn't surprising that he has fallen into the Walkerian mold of manic hitters who start the season ice cold for two months. It's not a coincidence when it happens to so many hitters.

As for that gold glove, look at the list of Yankees and Red Sox at any position. Ask yourself if those players are "names", whether it's because they are good or just overhyped. If they are "name" players, one of them will get the award unless he plays less than 50 games that season. Even then he still has a 25% chance. While Beckham has been better defensively than Cano and Pedroia, the one of them who has the better offensive season (Cano) will be taking home the award.

The Immigrant
07-12-2011, 09:15 AM
He has indeed pitched better than his ERA indicates.

The fact that he's one of the worst fielding pitchers in the league also hurts the ERA.

kaufsox
07-12-2011, 09:44 AM
It would be great to send Jackson to Washington for Adam Dunn...oh wait.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 10:29 AM
He's a battler too. He throws a lot of pitches and pitches himself out of a lot of jams. His numbers aren't that bad really.
He's a good pitcher; just expensive and we only got him for 1.5 years. And he isn't "elite". No he isn't elite. He isn't good either.

DickAllen72
07-12-2011, 11:25 AM
Beckham's biggest problem is that he has an incompetant hitting coach who is doing his best to ruin Gordon's career (not on purpose, mind you). Gordon has loads of potential, but it isn't surprising that he has fallen into the Walkerian mold of manic hitters who start the season ice cold for two months. It's not a coincidence when it happens to so many hitters.
So true. And the same goes for Morel. I hope Walker is fired before Viciedo comes up or the same thing will probably happen to him.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 11:33 AM
So true. And the same goes for Morel. I hope Walker is fired before Viciedo comes up or the same thing will probably happen to him. Maybe I'm naive but I think Viciedo has a good chance to hit in spite of Walker. It is depressing to see what's happened to Beckham, but maybe his recent improvement at the plate is an indication that he will be all right. Most prospects don't pan out but this is one guy that should have a good long productive career.

DickAllen72
07-12-2011, 11:51 AM
Maybe I'm naive but I think Viciedo has a good chance to hit in spite of Walker. It is depressing to see what's happened to Beckham, but maybe his recent improvement at the plate is an indication that he will be all right. Most prospects don't pan out but this is one guy that should have a good long productive career.
How did Beckham's swing get so screwed up in the first place, and how is it that it's taking so long for him to correct it under Walker?

WhiteSox5187
07-12-2011, 11:52 AM
How did Beckham's swing get so screwed up in the first place, and how is it that it's taking so long for him to correct it under Walker?

Beckham's swing has become a lot longer than it was in 2009, someone also posted a picture of him that showed his hands are a lot lower now. He has changed his swing a bit over the past year so he is trying.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 12:12 PM
Crede, Borchard, Anderson and now Beckham with a hitch or loop in their swings. Crede worked hard to correct his, and then unfortunately his back problems ended his career. I don't believe Beckham came to the Sox with the sort of swing that is troubling him now. I can't imagine that Walker teaches his hitters to load up like that. Or does he?

Huskie28
07-12-2011, 12:28 PM
Beckham had a long college aluminum bat swing when he got to the bigs...he was successful in the beginning because the league hadn't figured him out yet. He hit for a lot of power in college and it is hard for certain guys to realize they will not be that hitter in the pros. It's hard to change what you have been your whole life...he is trying to make the change and unfortunately some guys just can't mentally become a different player.

Bucky F. Dent
07-12-2011, 12:35 PM
Agree. Fields and Getz were young players, and could have been traded for something needed. Neither is very good now, but that wasn't known for sure then.

The worst trade was the 2nd Swisher trade. There was no one in that package who had the remote possibility of being anything more than a bench hitter or the last man on a pitching staff. it was ridiculous.


Whoever decided that Wilson Betemit had anything left when the Swisher deal was made needs to be fired and banned from the Cell for the rest of his life.

That dude was MISERABLE.

Chez
07-12-2011, 01:41 PM
Whoever decided that Wilson Betemit had anything left when the Swisher deal was made needs to be fired and banned from the Cell for the rest of his life.

That dude was MISERABLE.

Betemit was truly miserable for the Sox -- especially in the field. Since he left, he's been a solid hitter for the Royals. In 2010 he was .297/13/43 in only 276 at bats! This year in 200 at bats he is .285/3/27. Those numbers compare favorably to our designated hitters' numbers for the past two seasons.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 02:15 PM
Beckham had a long college aluminum bat swing when he got to the bigs...he was successful in the beginning because the league hadn't figured him out yet. He hit for a lot of power in college and it is hard for certain guys to realize they will not be that hitter in the pros. It's hard to change what you have been your whole life...he is trying to make the change and unfortunately some guys just can't mentally become a different player. Did he? How much SEC baseball do you watch?

Domeshot17
07-12-2011, 03:26 PM
Gordon always had the hitch, it was a big concern on him in the draft, that he used the hitch to generate too much of his power and it wouldn't play. Plenty of people would have taken Justin Smoak over him in that draft.

Huskie28
07-12-2011, 04:27 PM
Did he? How much SEC baseball do you watch?

I was playing college ball when he was and payed attention to what was going on around me. The guy didn't spend much time in the minors and never really had the time to adjust for the majors. Like most "little guy" college power players, he had a long long swing. Can get away with it against 86 mph fastballs and inconsistent offspeed

SI1020
07-12-2011, 06:49 PM
I was playing college ball when he was and payed attention to what was going on around me. The guy didn't spend much time in the minors and never really had the time to adjust for the majors. Like most "little guy" college power players, he had a long long swing. Can get away with it against 86 mph fastballs and inconsistent offspeed That's why it's better to ask questions than to assume. I disagree on the long long swing, I actually thought he had a real quick fluid bat, even when he loaded up a bit. I noticed more of an occasional hitch on the low offspeed stuff. There's a scouting report out there that compared his swing to A-Rod's and another that praised his quick bat. When he's floundered the last two years his swing barely reminds me of his rookie year, let alone his time at Georgia. There's a tentative approach to many of his at bats whereas he just oozed confidence at Georgia. The SEC is the best baseball conference in the NCAA, but yes it is a long jump to the majors. Not everyone throws 86, the SEC usually has its share of power pitchers. I hope you enjoyed your time playing baseball in college.

TaylorStSox
07-12-2011, 07:17 PM
I thought I read that Walker doesn't really work with Beckham. He works with his Dad as he always has.

TheOldRoman
07-12-2011, 09:03 PM
I thought I read that Walker doesn't really work with Beckham. He works with his Dad as he always has.No, that is the story the Sox threw out about Swisher to cover for Walker's ineptitude. Beckham works with Walker.

DrCrawdad
07-12-2011, 10:51 PM
I thought I read that Walker doesn't really work with Beckham. He works with his Dad as he always has.

No, that is the story the Sox threw out about Swisher to cover for Walker's ineptitude. Beckham works with Walker.

Hitting coaches and Greg Walker are favorite whipping boys but how much of Beckham's flop falls on Beckham's shoulders? Is this simply a matter of the old genius scouts figuring out Beckham's weaknesses and Beckham failing to counter?

balke
07-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Hitting coaches and Greg Walker are favorite whipping boys but how much of Beckham's flop falls on Beckham's shoulders? Is this simply a matter of the old genius scouts figuring out Beckham's weaknesses and Beckham failing to counter?

Beckham occasionally loses the hitch according to Farmer. I heard a game where he saw Beckham doing it with his hands again - and Farmer says he told Walker what Beckham was doing. Walker said its something he's been working on time and again and everytime he comes out of it - Beckham reverts back to what he's done in the past.

ghostface36
07-13-2011, 01:24 AM
Hitting coaches and Greg Walker are favorite whipping boys but how much of Beckham's flop falls on Beckham's shoulders? Is this simply a matter of the old genius scouts figuring out Beckham's weaknesses and Beckham failing to counter?
nah walker totally f'd up beckhams swing hopefully he can re work it to when it was his best

TheOldRoman
07-13-2011, 09:02 AM
Hitting coaches and Greg Walker are favorite whipping boys but how much of Beckham's flop falls on Beckham's shoulders? Is this simply a matter of the old genius scouts figuring out Beckham's weaknesses and Beckham failing to counter?First off, some people recently have been throwing out this crap about "Scouting reports said he had a long swing! Should have passed on him!" First off, althought scouting reports may have mentioned that (I don't remember), scouting reports mention everything. Look at pre-draft scouting reports in any sport and you will think the player is a piece of crap. Those are the type of reports that tell you Jerry Rice is slow and LeBron doesn't have a good enough outside shot to be a superstar. They mention ever percieved flaw. Aside from that, long swings are something that can be worked with. In fact, when the Sox drafted Mitchell it was with knowledge they would have to completely rework his swing. Beckham is working hard at making his swing better, but I believe if he was getting instruction from someone better at their job he would be a lot better off.

Tragg
07-13-2011, 09:28 AM
I agree with Roman, every potential draftee has flaws.
But that's also an argument not to rush players and give them ample time to work through weaknesses. Beckham needs to produce as a major leaguer, so the emphasis is on the short term - what helps him best get a hit right now - v. working on and fixing things that may cause him to struggle for a while before he gets the hang of it.

kaufsox
07-13-2011, 10:13 AM
I agree with Roman, every potential draftee has flaws.
But that's also an argument not to rush players and give them ample time to work through weaknesses. Beckham needs to produce as a major leaguer, so the emphasis is on the short term - what helps him best get a hit right now - v. working on and fixing things that may cause him to struggle for a while before he gets the hang of it.

Not Bryce Harper. I've been told he can turn water into wine.

SI1020
07-13-2011, 10:44 AM
First off, some people recently have been throwing out this crap about "Scouting reports said he had a long swing! Should have passed on him!" First off, althought scouting reports may have mentioned that (I don't remember), scouting reports mention everything. Look at pre-draft scouting reports in any sport and you will think the player is a piece of crap. Those are the type of reports that tell you Jerry Rice is slow and LeBron doesn't have a good enough outside shot to be a superstar. They mention ever percieved flaw. Aside from that, long swings are something that can be worked with. In fact, when the Sox drafted Mitchell it was with knowledge they would have to completely rework his swing. Beckham is working hard at making his swing better, but I believe if he was getting instruction from someone better at their job he would be a lot better off. Not only that but taking it as gospel without ever having seen him play in college. When he is struggling Beckham doesn't have close to the swing that made him a powerhouse in college, nor the one his rookie year. I'll just add one more thing, scouting reports or not, I think he would have made a fine shortstop too. I didn't agree with all that bull**** about his lack or range. He was better at going to his left than right, but he had enough range and a really good arm.

Here is a 2009 scouting report on Beckham.

http://baseballbeginnings.com/big-league-beginnings/beckham-report


I agree with your assessment of scouting reports. They can be unrealistically critical. I don't know if it's an attempt to be thorough or speaks to the egos of the authors of these reports. Now I am oh so done with debating about Beckham, I hope he gets it together.

PorkChopExpress
07-13-2011, 11:42 AM
Not Bryce Harper. I've been told he can turn water into wine.

You must have been talking to Bryce Harper.

johnnyg83
07-13-2011, 05:05 PM
How did Beckham's swing get so screwed up in the first place, and how is it that it's taking so long for him to correct it under Walker?

Too soon to ask that question!

Too soon.

Too so ...

Good question.

balke
07-13-2011, 09:14 PM
I'll just add one more thing, scouting reports or not, I think he would have made a fine shortstop too. I didn't agree with all that bull**** about his lack or range. He was better at going to his left than right, but he had enough range and a really good arm.


I think he could be a shortstop. I think on a team that relies heavily on infield defense for a lot of pitchers - and for a team that has openly stated they believe in defense and pitching over hitting... you can't put Beckham at SS. The range is not good - Alexei is freaking amazing at SS.

That being said - Beckham is probably the best defensive 2Bman in the league because he's got the ability to play SS. I just personally don't think he'd be a very good SS. I like how the infield panned out - I just wish Beckham would start hitting the ball. I'd also like a better bat at 3B - but fix one problem at a time.

gosox41
07-14-2011, 08:56 PM
I agree with Roman, every potential draftee has flaws.
But that's also an argument not to rush players and give them ample time to work through weaknesses. Beckham needs to produce as a major leaguer, so the emphasis is on the short term - what helps him best get a hit right now - v. working on and fixing things that may cause him to struggle for a while before he gets the hang of it.


Hit the nail on the head. Sox didn't help things by rushing Beckham up. Who knew hitting .300 in the minors for the first two months of your career makes you a superstar.

Heck, even Frank spent more time in the minors for Beckham and I'm pretty sure Frank was highly rated.



Bob

Bucky F. Dent
07-14-2011, 09:34 PM
Hitting coaches and Greg Walker are favorite whipping boys but how much of Beckham's flop falls on Beckham's shoulders? Is this simply a matter of the old genius scouts figuring out Beckham's weaknesses and Beckham failing to counter?


I take it you're saying that Walk doesn't qualify as a hitting coach? Given current production, I totally agree. He's more like Paulie's swing coach, and the rest of them are left to flounder........and flounder they are!!!

cards press box
07-17-2011, 05:20 PM
I'm on board the Grandal train. I've posted about it for a while now. The Sox should take advantage of the catching glut that Cinci has. Meso is closer and higher on the depth chart, and many feel Yasmani will be a trade piece. I was a huge fan of his before the draft, and the Sox were set to make that pick but the Reds popped him one before us. I'm not sure Edwin would get it done. Danks might though.

I'm a Hamilton fan too. Kid is a legitimate burner. Bourjos fast. Hasn't been that impressive in Low-A though.

Two teams with good catching prospects come to mind: (1) the Reds with Yasmani Grandal (age 22, switch hitter, .296 average and 10 homers in 206 AB's at High A Bakersfield and .267 average, 1 HR in 60 AB's at AA Carolina) and Devin Mesoraco (age 23, bats right, .300 average, 9 HR in 303 AB's in AAA Louisville) and (2) the Rockies with Wilin Rosario (age 22, bats right, .251 average but 14 homers in 279 AB's in AA Tulsa) and I, too, would quite happy of the Sox got Mesoraco or Grandal. Let's hope that the Sox are talking to Cincy about a Jackson deal.

I know that the Yankees' minor league catchers (Jesus Montero, Gary Sanchez and Austin Romine) are well hyped but none are really having great offensive years in the minors except perhaps Montero (.288 average with 7 HR in 281 AB's at AAA Scranton-Wilkes-Berre) and, what's more, there are questions on whether Montero will ever catch in the big leagues.

DirtySox
07-25-2011, 10:55 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1144343763/foxjon_normal.jpg
jonmorosi (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi) Jon Morosi
#Yankees (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Yankees) had a scout in Cleveland on Sunday, where #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23WhiteSox) starter Edwin Jackson was on the mound. He beat the #Indians (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Indians). #MLB (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23MLB)
47 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi/status/95510445003243520) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

kittle42
07-25-2011, 11:00 AM
http://a3.twimg.com/profile_images/1144343763/foxjon_normal.jpg
jonmorosi (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi) Jon Morosi
#Yankees (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Yankees) had a scout in Cleveland on Sunday, where #WhiteSox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23WhiteSox) starter Edwin Jackson was on the mound. He beat the #Indians (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Indians). #MLB (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23MLB)
47 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/jonmorosi/status/95510445003243520) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

I'll happily trade with the Yankees, as long as we can get such studs as Jhonny Nunez in return!

DirtySox
07-25-2011, 11:51 AM
http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/262579268/sherman3_normal.jpg
Joelsherman1 (http://twitter.com/#%21/Joelsherman1) Joel Sherman
Heard #Whitesox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Whitesox) scouts are spending a lot of time on systems of #Yankees (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Yankees) #Redsox (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Redsox) #Phillies (http://twitter.com/#%21/search?q=%23Phillies) in case they sell at deadline
1 minute ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/Joelsherman1/status/95536191105007617) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

Tragg
07-25-2011, 01:57 PM
Good move. As I learned 40 years ago: "Be Prepared"