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View Full Version : The Sox need clubhouse leadership STAT


Jurr
07-10-2011, 09:12 PM
Read Konerko's postgame comments. I don't like hearing team leaders talking about "just grinding and hoping for the best, and if it doesn't happen, it was just a bad year."

He is an All-Star and a run producer. Konerko has his act together. Sometimes you need someone in that clubhouse to demand a little more focus, work, and attitude.

When a team is full of players that have fat contracts and past success, you better have a few leaders that don't put up with sloppy fielding, half hearted at bats, and lack of focus.

I'm so sick of the hat tipping and "it's just not our year" crap.

This team has a palpable lack of heart.

guillensdisciple
07-10-2011, 09:42 PM
What new man. this has been a problem for a while. Too many nice guys on this team, not enough character to stand up when problems arise.

SBSoxFan
07-10-2011, 09:58 PM
Read Konerko's postgame comments. I don't like hearing team leaders talking about "just grinding and hoping for the best, and if it doesn't happen, it was just a bad year."

He is an All-Star and a run producer. Konerko has his act together. Sometimes you need someone in that clubhouse to demand a little more focus, work, and attitude.

When a team is full of players that have fat contracts and past success, you better have a few leaders that don't put up with sloppy fielding, half hearted at bats, and lack of focus.

I'm so sick of the hat tipping and "it's just not our year" crap.

This team has a palpable lack of heart.

What new man. this has been a problem for a while. Too many nice guys on this team, not enough character to stand up when problems arise.

I'm pretty sure a team full of Mark Buehrle's and Paul Konerko's would win A LOT of games. You don't know what Konerko is saying in the privacy of the clubhouse unless you are in there.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 10:02 PM
SB:

For what it's worth I've spoken to folks who are in the clubhouse and Paulie is the same way, never gets to high, never gets to low.

It simply isn't in his nature, or Mark's (or Dye's or Thome's) to get in somebody's face.

Doesn't mean they are bad guys, doesn't mean they aren't good players...that's simply not their way.

And I agree the clubhouse has been devoid of those type of individuals for the past few years. Ozzie has told the media that he is the clubhouse leader.

Lip

SoxSpeed22
07-10-2011, 10:15 PM
It's not really being a rah-rah type guy, it's really more about getting on guys for dogging it, or writing insults in the dirt during the game.

Rocky Soprano
07-10-2011, 10:16 PM
SB:

For what it's worth I've spoken to folks who are in the clubhouse and Paulie is the same way, never gets to high, never gets to low.

It simply isn't in his nature, or Mark's (or Dye's or Thome's) to get in somebody's face.

Doesn't mean they are bad guys, doesn't mean they aren't good players...that's simply not their way.

And I agree the clubhouse has been devoid of those type of individuals for the past few years. Ozzie has told the media that he is the clubhouse leader.

Lip

How's that working out?

For someone that loves to hear himself talk, is the "face" of the Sox, and is supposed to be a players manager, why the hell is he not able to pump some life into this team?

hi im skot
07-10-2011, 10:22 PM
I haven't played organized baseball since Little League, so I pose this question to folks who have played high school, college or anything above - does it actually matter if there's some rah-rah go team sort of guy on the roster?

In movies there always seems to be a pivotal moment where the team rallies together and goes on some sort of run, but does **** like that actually happen, and do teams generally respond to that?

Several folks here seem to be calling for a "vocal, clubhouse leader," but would that actually solve anything? Frankly, as someone who just plays rec league softball, I think a guy like that could get pretty irritating.

SBSoxFan
07-10-2011, 10:33 PM
SB:

For what it's worth I've spoken to folks who are in the clubhouse and Paulie is the same way, never gets to high, never gets to low.

It simply isn't in his nature, or Mark's (or Dye's or Thome's) to get in somebody's face.

Doesn't mean they are bad guys, doesn't mean they aren't good players...that's simply not their way.

And I agree the clubhouse has been devoid of those type of individuals for the past few years. Ozzie has told the media that he is the clubhouse leader.

Lip

Lip, and yet these guys are/were elite baseball players. What I usually here professional baseball players say is that you can't get too high or too low or press because the game will eat you alive. Is that what happened to Dunn and/or Rios --- they snapped trying to live up to the expectations of a huge contract?

Konerko and Buehrle seem to have figured this game out, and, while I don't know about Konerko, Buehrle certainly wasn't a highly-touted prospect. If I were a position player, I'd certainly be trying to figure out what makes Konerko tick; if I were a pitcher, I'd certainly be trying to figure out what makes Buehrle tick. You can only have leaders if someone else is willing to follow.

DirtySox
07-10-2011, 10:38 PM
I haven't played organized baseball since Little League, so I pose this question to folks who have played high school, college or anything above - does it actually matter if there's some rah-rah go team sort of guy on the roster?

In movies there always seems to be a pivotal moment where the team rallies together and goes on some sort of run, but does **** like that actually happen, and do teams generally respond to that?

Several folks here seem to be calling for a "vocal, clubhouse leader," but would that actually solve anything? Frankly, as someone who just plays rec league softball, I think a guy like that could get pretty irritating.

I think it's a bunch of garbage personally. And wasn't Jake Peavy supposed to be that guy? Hasn't seemed to make much of difference.

mzh
07-10-2011, 10:42 PM
How's that working out?

For someone that loves to hear himself talk, is the "face" of the Sox, and is supposed to be a players manager, why the hell is he not able to pump some life into this team?
I think 'pumping life into a team' is pretty broad or subjective. Obviously there is more to playing well than being vocal, but I think that there's too much that goes on in the clubhouse that we don't know about to make judgements in that regard. I'm for sure in the incredibly small minority that still likes Ozzie, but I will admit there are plenty of things you can nitpick about his managing, but I think we shouldn't judge based on what just meets the eye. Lovie Smith is probably a much more intense coach in practices and the locker rooms than he is to the press.

SBSoxFan
07-10-2011, 10:44 PM
I think it's a bunch of garbage personally. And wasn't Jake Peavy supposed to be that guy? Hasn't seemed to make much of difference.

Can the Sox trade Tony Bernazard for Julio Cruz again?

mzh
07-10-2011, 10:44 PM
I think it's a bunch of garbage personally. And wasn't Jake Peavy supposed to be that guy? Hasn't seemed to make much of difference.
I agree, although there is a huge difference between rallying the team and just talking ****, which it appears Peavy has been doing. Having a guy who can just get the team excited and ready to play is a lot different than talking to the press about what everyone else needs to do.

soltrain21
07-10-2011, 10:44 PM
I haven't played organized baseball since Little League, so I pose this question to folks who have played high school, college or anything above - does it actually matter if there's some rah-rah go team sort of guy on the roster?

In movies there always seems to be a pivotal moment where the team rallies together and goes on some sort of run, but does **** like that actually happen, and do teams generally respond to that?

Several folks here seem to be calling for a "vocal, clubhouse leader," but would that actually solve anything? Frankly, as someone who just plays rec league softball, I think a guy like that could get pretty irritating.

Team needs a sexy cardboard cutout that has pieces of clothes on they can remove after each win.

mzh
07-10-2011, 10:45 PM
Team needs a sexy cardboard cutout that has pieces of clothes on they can remove after each win.
JR doesn't have a past in modeling, does he? :tongue:

Noneck
07-10-2011, 10:54 PM
The best players on a team dont have to be the clubhouse leaders. I see this team as not having a leader because the manager doesnt want them to. They have had some guys on the club that were leaders or tried to be but these guys didnt get along with ozwaldo so they were not on the team for long. Another thing that may discourage clubhouse leadership is a manager with loose lips or family member's that are alllowed in the chubhouse santutary that also have loose lips.

This situation will stay the same until a new manager is on board.

One more thing that I forgot. I remember ozwaldo appointing Konerko as team captain after 05. Shouldn't the team captain be chosen by the players? Ozwaldo knew the type of guy Paul is and this choice would be exactly the type of guy oz wanted.

kaufsox
07-10-2011, 10:55 PM
Heard a lot of comments from players who at this level just don't respond to the rah-rah stuff, that a loss that upsets the fans, just doesn't have the same effect on players it can't really. It seems like a winning team has a great clubhouse great chemistry, but the same team that isn't winning lacks heart is a lacking in leadership.@

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-10-2011, 10:56 PM
PK is a "quiet" leader.

Where is O-Cab when you need him? Oh, who cares, 98% of White Sox fans hate him.

hi im skot
07-10-2011, 11:06 PM
PK is a "quiet" leader.

Where is O-Cab when you need him? Oh, who cares, 98% of White Sox fans hate him.

Okay.

PalehosePlanet
07-10-2011, 11:32 PM
Lip, and yet these guys are/were elite baseball players. What I usually here professional baseball players say is that you can't get too high or too low or press because the game will eat you alive. Is that what happened to Dunn and/or Rios --- they snapped trying to live up to the expectations of a huge contract?

Konerko and Buehrle seem to have figured this game out, and, while I don't know about Konerko, Buehrle certainly wasn't a highly-touted prospect. If I were a position player, I'd certainly be trying to figure out what makes Konerko tick; if I were a pitcher, I'd certainly be trying to figure out what makes Buehrle tick. You can only have leaders if someone else is willing to follow.

Paulie was a sky high rated prospect; #1 or #2 in every major publication for 1998, and a top ten in 1997.

Earlier in his career, Paulie was extremely hard on himself, was overly intense, beat himself up over bad at bats, and was way too serious and was not having any fun. Basically Paulie from 1999 to 2003 is exactly like Carlos Quentin 2008 - current day. His anger and intensity were, and still are, more introverted.

I'm not a big believer in the so called vocal leader, but I would like to have a few more fiery and intense guys on the team. I personally used to love when Jack McDowell would walk off the mound yelling at the opposition, his own teammates, or just talking to himself.

The rah-rah types (Swisher) or the ******* big mouth types who can't back it up (Orlando Cabrera) I can do without. I did like Carl Everett's intensity though. He was always on the top step of the dugout yelling at the opposing pitcher and manager as soon as he thought someone was throwing at us. Crazy Carl was ready to fight and backup his teammates at the first sign of trouble and that alone gave the team a natural us vs. them cohesiveness. Problem is those guys are hard to find.

And no, AJ slamming his bat down and yelling ****!! from the top of his lungs after popping up is not the same thing.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 11:35 PM
Skot:

To answer your question I played through high school and a cup of coffee in college. I've been around clubhouses most of my life including the pro's.

Yes, guys who stand up, speak their mind can and do make a difference. But it's more than just calling out a player or breaking a toilet (although I feel it would be great if the Sox even had that). I just did an interview for the site (PHGeorge has had it for about three weeks now) where the subject gave specific actions done by individuals to help players individually without a lot of fanfare, with no publicity but the players on the team knew about it and knew that those players stepped out of their area to help.

This player also talked about how those individuals almost forced the team to unite and become single minded through a series of meetings called by the players with required attendance. (Although no player was forced to say anything at the meetings).

It was a chance for guys to get together, talk about the game, air things out maybe get to know a teammate in a different way under different circumstances.

They also explained how the manager was secure enough with himself to as the individual put it, "let the veterans work out the problems that came up," and again he offered a specific player, what the situation was and how the vets got him back on track.

There are a lot of things "vocal leaders" can do... right now it appears based on comments, body language and reactions during the game that the Sox mentally are shot, aren't getting that intangible leadership and may have even tuned out Ozzie almost completely.

Over time the Sox have had a lot of those type guys...Fox, Landis, Wynn, McDowell, Fisk, Hibbard, Ozzie (as a player), Everett, Dick Allen, Rowand, El Duque....they don't appear to have anybody like that today.

It's a bad situation, our worst nightmare based on what everyone was hoping for back in March.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 06:49 AM
What would Ozzie's reaction be if the players had a players-only meeting?

daveeym
07-11-2011, 07:13 AM
I think noneck and palehoseplanet hit on a couple things and the key is it being fun. Oz is great as a frontrunner but when things go poorly he's a nightmare. Players manager my ass. He's the type to ride guys in a hunourous way where the rest of the team laughs nervously while saying ******* under their breath.

Then when you top that off with his almost panicky managing when things are going bad you get a team that tunes out. How often do we as fans say oh no not this **** again when oz continues to bat dunn 3rd or run thorton out in the 9th at the start of the season? Well the players are seeing and thinking the same thing and when in contnually blows up you get a team of guys that are just going about their job. Trying to stay off ozzies radar and get it to turn around the next day.

Finally throw in the circus that og and his family bring into town as regularly as barnum and bailey hits the united center and you get a team just playing out the games.

russ99
07-11-2011, 07:43 AM
People love to bash Ozzie, but tell me when have we had a "players meeting" this year?

Zero leadership in the clubhouse among players is a big problem. It's obvious that many of these guys are just punching the clock and collecting their checks.

Paul should get over his issues and be the leader we know he can be. Peavy needs to lead in the clubhouse, not in the press.

What would Ozzie's reaction be if the players had a players-only meeting?

None, the team has had them before with him as manager. Maybe you should ask why the players haven't had one this year?

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 09:09 AM
The best players on a team dont have to be the clubhouse leaders. I see this team as not having a leader because the manager doesnt want them to. They have had some guys on the club that were leaders or tried to be but these guys didnt get along with ozwaldo so they were not on the team for long. Another thing that may discourage clubhouse leadership is a manager with loose lips or family member's that are alllowed in the chubhouse santutary that also have loose lips.

This situation will stay the same until a new manager is on board.

One more thing that I forgot. I remember ozwaldo appointing Konerko as team captain after 05. Shouldn't the team captain be chosen by the players? Ozwaldo knew the type of guy Paul is and this choice would be exactly the type of guy oz wanted.
Excellent post. You wrote everything I was going to write.

Paulie never wanted to be "captain" anyway. It was almost forced upon him by Ozzie.

Gavin
07-11-2011, 09:10 AM
You don't get 16000 square foot house in Scottsdale by being a leader!!!!

doublem23
07-11-2011, 09:10 AM
You don't get 16000 square foot house in Scottsdale by being a leader!!!!

:rolling:

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 09:18 AM
I did like Carl Everett's intensity though. He was always on the top step of the dugout yelling at the opposing pitcher and manager as soon as he thought someone was throwing at us. Crazy Carl was ready to fight and backup his teammates at the first sign of trouble and that alone gave the team a natural us vs. them cohesiveness. Problem is those guys are hard to find.

Carl was one of the major reasons the Sox won it all in '05.

Not only is there no leadership from the players, but there seems to be none from the coaches either. What does Harold Baines contribute to this team other than being one of Ozzie and JR's buddies? They should drop Baines from the staff, move Cora's ass to 1B and hire Carl back as bench coach.

Or they should just hire someone like Tim Raines back. Why did Ozzie fire him anyway? Probably because Raines was being a leader and Ozzie was threatened by it.

Of course the best thing is to fire Ozzie immediately and let the new manager pick his own coaching staff.

SI1020
07-11-2011, 10:15 AM
I think noneck and palehoseplanet hit on a couple things and the key is it being fun. Oz is great as a frontrunner but when things go poorly he's a nightmare. Players manager my ass. He's the type to ride guys in a hunourous way where the rest of the team laughs nervously while saying ******* under their breath.

Then when you top that off with his almost panicky managing when things are going bad you get a team that tunes out. How often do we as fans say oh no not this **** again when oz continues to bat dunn 3rd or run thorton out in the 9th at the start of the season? Well the players are seeing and thinking the same thing and when in contnually blows up you get a team of guys that are just going about their job. Trying to stay off ozzies radar and get it to turn around the next day.

Finally throw in the circus that og and his family bring into town as regularly as barnum and bailey hits the united center and you get a team just playing out the games. Excellent post.

Falstaff
07-11-2011, 10:21 AM
Carl was one of the major reasons the Sox won it all in '05.

Not only is there no leadership from the players, but there seems to be none from the coaches either. What does Harold Baines contribute to this team other than being one of Ozzie and JR's buddies? They should drop Baines from the staff, move Cora's ass to 1B and hire Carl back as bench coach.

Or they should just hire someone like Tim Raines back. Why did Ozzie fire him anyway? Probably because Raines was being a leader and Ozzie was threatened by it.

Of course the best thing is to fire Ozzie immediately and let the new manager pick his own coaching staff.

True. And I remember in '06 when Carl was off the (then dominating) team, he said something like "the White Sox will not repeat without me" . Everyone here got a good laugh, but Crazy Carl was right. 2011 (especially Dunn and Rios) shows that the intangibles are at least as impotent as athletic skills. Baseball is a team sport, and on winners, everyone finds their way to contribute to a winning milieu. Not happening since '05.

sullythered
07-11-2011, 10:27 AM
Would a guy with a big mouth cause Dunn to put up an .850 OPS? Or Rios or Beckham to hit .280? If not, **** the "leadership" bull****. This isn't football. A loudmouth in the clubhouse would probably just rattle our crappy hitters worse. What we need is a new GM.

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 10:45 AM
Would a guy with a big mouth cause Dunn to put up an .850 OPS? Or Rios or Beckham to hit .280? If not, **** the "leadership" bull****. This isn't football. A loudmouth in the clubhouse would probably just rattle our crappy hitters worse. What we need is a new GM.
Would a new GM cause guys like Rios and Dunn to hit to their career norms?

kevingrt
07-11-2011, 10:51 AM
Would a new GM cause guys like Rios and Dunn to hit to their career norms?

No but it would led to guys like Rios and Dunn not being acquired to play for this team hopefully.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2011, 11:04 AM
This column seems to indict the Sox from a heart / leadership standpoint. Says it's the players fault basically:

http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/columns/story?columnist=greenberg_jon&id=6755313

Lip

BigKlu59
07-11-2011, 11:05 AM
Leadership? Leadership starts when everybody does the job they are paid to do. I've coached, been a captain, and have been around some loudmouths on alot of teams.. winning starts with performance and a chemistry builds from there.. a loudmouth is tolerated if he meets or exceeds his talent level... If he sucks and is a buffoon he becomes a distraction and is alienated...

These guys know they have hit the Mendoza... They are kidding themselves if they think they havent.. Screaming at a guy to improve his play is gonna get you the brick wall from a player these days.. The day of the bus ticket to Toledo is long gone..

The only recourse is to manipulate the line up and take away the cookie. Sure it would piss alot off if you have millions of dollars of payroll sitting on the bench, but at the end of the day its all about winning..whenever and however you can.. You cant let "personalities" dictate your teams success. Sit the dogs.. Actions always speak louder than words.

They've had a half of a season to figgure this out. Those that contribute, play..Those that dont.. sit. Sit the sweaty ass cheeks,take extra BP and stir the gatorade for the guys humpin..

Oh yes, clubhouse leader...Anyone with the balls to say we aint giving the folks what they came to see us do and in their hearts mean it.. Do these types of players still exist?

BK59

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 11:06 AM
No but it would led to guys like Rios and Dunn not being acquired to play for this team hopefully.
Too late.

kaufsox
07-11-2011, 03:11 PM
No but it would led to guys like Rios and Dunn not being acquired to play for this team hopefully.

huh?

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 03:47 PM
Would a guy with a big mouth cause Dunn to put up an .850 OPS? Or Rios or Beckham to hit .280?

Would a new GM cause guys like Rios and Dunn to hit to their career norms?

No and no, but a new hitting coach might. But if it takes a new manager and/or GM to get a more effective hitting coach, then so be it.

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 05:49 PM
No and no, but a new hitting coach might. But if it takes a new manager and/or GM to get a more effective hitting coach, then so be it.
I'm on board with firing Ozzie/Walker and it should have been done by now.

Since I'm of the opinion that Ozzie and his coaching staff are not getting the most out of these players, I'd give KW until the end of the season to see if a manager of his own choosing can do something with this roster he assembled. If they fail to make the playoffs, KW should be gone too.

southside rocks
07-11-2011, 06:38 PM
Would a new GM cause guys like Rios and Dunn to hit to their career norms?

My wish is that a new GM would put both those players on waivers -- hey, the Sox might get lucky the way Toronto got lucky!

Noneck
07-11-2011, 07:02 PM
My wish is that a new GM would put both those players on waivers -- hey, the Sox might get lucky the way Toronto got lucky!


How do you know that they arent currently on the wavier wire?

JB98
07-11-2011, 07:29 PM
I don't know that you need guys smashing toilets, yelling at teammates and turning over the clubhouse spread. None of that **** wins games. When talent meets execution, that's what causes winning.

What you do need is guys who have faith in themselves, faith in their teammates and faith in the coaches.

I quit playing ball when I was in high school, but I played on some good teams and some bad teams (mostly bad) as a kid. When I was on a good team, we had confidence that we could pull through situations and get a victory. The winning teams I played on, we were actually surprised when we lost.

The bad teams I played on, well, I just went to the field expecting to get my ass kicked -- especially late in the season.

I think confidence -- both individual and collective -- is a more important thing in sports than vocal leadership. If you don't expect to succeed, you probably won't -- unless the dudes you're playing against happen to be going even worse than you are.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 07:44 PM
How do you know that they arent currently on the wavier wire?

If I understand the process correctly, there's not much reason to put them on the waiver wire now.

You can put a player on waivers ONCE in a season. The second time, they are off the roster and the waiving team owes the contract in full.

If they clear waivers now, they could not be put on waivers again during August (the waiver trading period), without losing the player and owing the full contract.

Jurr
07-11-2011, 09:05 PM
Baseball is a game of focus. Yes, getting too fired up can have a negative impact, as it makes you too jumpy to make clear decisions on a baseball coming in at 94 with tailing action.

However, when your team puts it's head down constantly, gives up late ABs without a fight, boots way too many defensive plays, and concedes defeat to Minnesota ad nauseum, there needs to be someone with some courage to step up to 8 figure players and tell them to quit pouting and get into focus.

I understand slumps and loss of mechanics. It sucks when something that felt like a reflex action returns to a conscious action. It's what makes golf, baseball, and the other "skill" sports tough.

Something is broken psychologically with this team. When teams like the Twins and Pirates can bring up rookies and nurture them enough to get results, you know that something is wrong when your team has established pros that can't get to .200.

A. Cavatica
07-11-2011, 09:35 PM
I'm on board with firing Ozzie/Walker and it should have been done by now.

Since I'm of the opinion that Ozzie and his coaching staff are not getting the most out of these players, I'd give KW until the end of the season to see if a manager of his own choosing can do something with this roster he assembled. If they fail to make the playoffs, KW should be gone too.

I posted exactly this suggestion a couple of months ago. Progress: nil.