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thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 05:11 PM
At least we won yesterday.

Not that that helps.

soltrain21
07-10-2011, 05:12 PM
Fire Ozzie. Fire Walker. Fire Hawk.

cleanwsox
07-10-2011, 05:13 PM
2-5 against the two worst teams in the Central. Good times.

harwar
07-10-2011, 05:13 PM
What's that definition of insanity again ..

WhiteSox5187
07-10-2011, 05:13 PM
We got shut down by a guy who had a six ERA in AAA last year. Really, there is no reason for anyone on the coaching staff (save for Cooper) to be back after the break. There isn't much of a reason for Kenny to be back either.

russ99
07-10-2011, 05:13 PM
It sucks to see Peavy pitch so poorly.

But hey, we got one hit from Dunn/Rios today...

all*star quentin
07-10-2011, 05:14 PM
Fire Ozzie. Fire Walker. Fire Hawk.


Add Stone to that list.

HaroMaster87
07-10-2011, 05:14 PM
At least we won yesterday.

They will go 5-14 on this stretch...they're mailing it in now. Yesterdays game was just a fluke...

arKnaD7
07-10-2011, 05:15 PM
Who will be held accountable?

My guess, nobody.

Soxfest
07-10-2011, 05:15 PM
I will tip my cap when Sox brass grows some balls and make sweeping changes including new manager and GM fire them both together! I hope they draw 5,000 a night rest of the year!:angry:

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:16 PM
Who will be held accountable?

My guess, nobody.

Maybe not but I think something will happen. The need for change is too strong.

DirtySox
07-10-2011, 05:16 PM
You were pretty bad today Mr. Peavy.

HaroMaster87
07-10-2011, 05:18 PM
Oh and here's another bit of good news...we start the second half with a tilt against Mr Verlander!!! Haha

Nelfox02
07-10-2011, 05:18 PM
I mean look at this entire homestand here

u came in with a little mojo---did solid (not our usual amazing) but solid in IL play.....and you had 7 games against 2 teams trailing you in the division.....and then you look at the pitchers we were going to face

5-2, this had to be 5-2......4-3 would have been blah to me....just more Sox blah....but to end up 2 and 5? How? Why does this keep happening to this team? How can it be tolerated

This really should have been Guillen's final game.....it really should be.....

what a just flat out plain awful way to go into the all star break.

my favorite part of this particular game was the 4th.....Peavy decides to walk not one, but 2, awful hitters with 2 out and then of course lets both score

I have not hated a sox team more than I have hated this one since.....maybe ever.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:19 PM
Add Stone to that list.

Huh? He is a pro and the fact that he stays professional while sitting next to that jackass day after day makes him even better.

LongLiveFisk
07-10-2011, 05:19 PM
Oh and here's another bit of good news...we start the second half with a tilt against Mr Verlander!!! Haha

:stars:

all*star quentin
07-10-2011, 05:19 PM
All Star break, time for Sox fans to relax. I'm heading to House of Blues, to see Buckcherry tonight! :gulp:

Nelfox02
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
Oh and here's another bit of good news...we start the second half with a tilt against Mr Verlander!!! Haha

and Gavin is our guy, not that we would win that game with any of our pitchers going.....but Gavin vs Verlander? no chance

I cant wait!!!! it sucks we have to wait all these days for that 5-0 loss!!!!

counting the hours!!!!!

SI1020
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
2011 White Sox, you give me nothing but the blues.

1AsEmx8OpXs&NR=1

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
Huh? He is a pro and the fact that he stays professional while sitting next to that jackass day after day makes him even better.
Agreed. You know things are getting bad when people start blaming the least accountable members of the organization.

soltrain21
07-10-2011, 05:20 PM
I like when Melton talks about how the opposing pitcher throws "a lot of strikes."

No, he doesn't throw a lot of strikes. White Sox hitters swing at absolute ****, making them stat as a strike.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2011, 05:21 PM
Oh and here's another bit of good news...we start the second half with a tilt against Mr Verlander!!! Haha

In all actuality, it probably is good news. The Sox seemingly can't hit a pitch under 90 mph.

russ99
07-10-2011, 05:21 PM
In the AL, the Sox are 9th in BA, 10th in OBP, 11th in Slugging. 11th in OPS and 9th in runs.

Conversely, we're 2nd in fielding, 6th in ERA, 7th in runs against and 7th in WHiP.

Easy fix here... Walker must go.

KnightSox
07-10-2011, 05:21 PM
I didn't see the game today, I would suspect the Sox have maintained their foothold on mediocrity.

Oh and their fear of the mighty Twins too.

Crestani
07-10-2011, 05:21 PM
and Gavin is our guy, not that we would win that game with any of our pitchers going.....but Gavin vs Verlander? no chance

I cant wait!!!! it sucks we have to wait all these days for that 5-0 loss!!!!

counting the hours!!!!!


Only 5-0..??

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:22 PM
and Gavin is our guy, not that we would win that game with any of our pitchers going.....but Gavin vs Verlander? no chance

I cant wait!!!! it sucks we have to wait all these days for that 5-0 loss!!!!

counting the hours!!!!!


Better that than wasting Humber or Buehrle in a 1-0 loss.

LITTLE NELL
07-10-2011, 05:23 PM
In the AL, the Sox are 9th in BA, 10th in OBP, 11th in Slugging. 11th in OPS and 9th in runs.

Conversely, we're 2nd in fielding, 6th in ERA, 7th in runs against and 7th in WHiP.

Easy fix here... Walker must go.

And he can take Rios, Dunn and a few others with him.

kittle42
07-10-2011, 05:23 PM
Don't go to the games. Don't watch the games. Don't spend a dime on this team.

This was the most predictable outcome of a series like almost ever. We almost *all* thought 1-3.

How in the world does the brass not see it?

Fire Ozzie. Fire Kenny. Fire Walker. Trade Quentin. Trade Jackson. Trade _____.

I am fine with 3-4 years of Rios+Dunn+kids if we can rebuild.

Crestani
07-10-2011, 05:24 PM
I love how we take strike one right down the middle but swing at ball in the dirt on strike two and three...Great team disapline...!!!

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:24 PM
In the AL, the Sox are 9th in BA, 10th in OBP, 11th in Slugging. 11th in OPS and 9th in runs.

Conversely, we're 2nd in fielding, 6th in ERA, 7th in runs against and 7th in WHiP.

Easy fix here... Walker must go.

Easy fix? With these hitters? Yes, Walker must go, but do you really think things will be easily fixed if he does?

kittle42
07-10-2011, 05:25 PM
Easy fix? With these hitters? Yes, Walker must go, but do you really think things will be easily fixed if he does?

Yes, because Ozzie will still be here! The master manager of men and foremost in-game strategist we have seen in decades!

Nelfox02
07-10-2011, 05:26 PM
Only 5-0..??


yeah.....Gavin does okay for the first 4 innings, but gets in a jam with 2 out and Cabrera up....Oz stays with him and bam 3 run shot makes it 5-0

pen does a nice job.......sox do nothing vs Verlander

fun times! tune in Friday!!!!

kittle42
07-10-2011, 05:26 PM
It sucks to see Peavy pitch so poorly.

But hey, we got one hit from Dunn/Rios today...

Ozzie Guillen is no longer good at managing baseball teams.

daveeym
07-10-2011, 05:28 PM
Yes, because Ozzie will still be here! The master manager of men and foremost in-game strategist we have seen in decades! Fire ozwaldo and things will change, this is a depressed team that has an ******* for a field manager. They just want to play the game and get the **** out of there.

ChicagoG19
07-10-2011, 05:28 PM
I turned the game off after the Twins scored their fifth run. This is getting old and repetitive. The fact that the Sox won the game yesterday is a miracle. Jerry has to grow some balls and make some personnel changes over the break. With the exception of Konerko, I don't feel anyone on this team should be safe. That includes the coaches and the GM.

russ99
07-10-2011, 05:32 PM
Easy fix? With these hitters? Yes, Walker must go, but do you really think things will be easily fixed if he does?

A different approach couldn't hurt.

Do you think these guys want to come back after 3 days off to the same things that don't work? Or could it be a breath of fresh air with a new hitting coach and something different?

BTW: Ozzie tried everything he can with these guys, benchings, days off, moving up and down the order and it doesn't work. What else can a manager do? A new hitting coach could do something...

Nelfox02
07-10-2011, 05:33 PM
Don't go to the games. Don't watch the games. Don't spend a dime on this team.

This was the most predictable outcome of a series like almost ever. We almost *all* thought 1-3.

How in the world does the brass not see it?

Fire Ozzie. Fire Kenny. Fire Walker. Trade Quentin. Trade Jackson. Trade _____.

I am fine with 3-4 years of Rios+Dunn+kids if we can rebuild.


Bingo.......and indicative of the losing culture that has infected this fanbase and now this organization

I wonder to man on Friday night, when the Twins came back and tied the game, even before Ohman surrendered the bomb....were each our players thinking "we are going to lose this game"

were any of our guys thinking "hey, three runs only, plenty of time, we can still win this game" Were any of us fans????

chisoxfanatic
07-10-2011, 05:33 PM
I need a hug!!! These guys have no heart! :(:

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:34 PM
I turned the game off after the Twins scored their fifth run. This is getting old and repetitive. The fact that the Sox won the game yesterday is a miracle. Jerry has to grow some balls and make some personnel changes over the break. With the exception of Konerko, I don't feel anyone on this team should be safe. That includes the coaches and the GM.

Humber? Santos? AJ?

SI1020
07-10-2011, 05:35 PM
I need a hug!!! These guys have no heart! :(: I need a drink, which I will be having shortly. I hope you get your hug.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:37 PM
A different approach couldn't hurt.

Do you think these guys want to come back after 3 days off to the same things that don't work? Or could it be a breath of fresh air with a new hitting coach and something different?

BTW: Ozzie tried everything he can with these guys, benchings, days off, moving up and down the order and it doesn't work. What else can a manager do? A new hitting coach could do something...

Of course he should go, but to call the firing of Walker an "easy fix" is absurd. The problems are too deep. So many hitters suck too badly for this to be turned around quickly by a hitting coach change.

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 05:38 PM
Fire Ozzie. Fire Walker. Fire Hawk.
Yes, yes, oh yes!!!

russ99
07-10-2011, 05:38 PM
Of course he should go, but to call the firing of Walker an "easy fix" is absurd. The problems are too deep. So many hitters suck too badly for this to be turned around quickly by a hitting coach change.

I agree, firing Walker is not a panacea. But one or two of them getting right could make a world of difference.

LITTLE NELL
07-10-2011, 05:39 PM
Nice homestand and a week ago I thought we would go 4-3 or maybe even 5-2. I should have remembered we weren't playing the NL anymore.

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 05:39 PM
I don't know how anyone could still advocate doing nothing, even if its just firing Walker. It's not a massive change, but you need to show some accountability. Even a little bit. What does this team have to lose? Nothing.

central44
07-10-2011, 05:40 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.

What he needs to do is stand up to Ozzie. Ozzie is a poor manager and has a huge ego. It always has to be his way. Last year, the Sox went into a season with a black hole at DH because Ozzie "couldn't find the ABs" for Thome, a productive DH who *wanted* to come back here. Don't you think that could have swung a few games toward a Sox team that won 89 last year?

I'm fed up with Ozzie's stubbornness when it clearly hurts the team. I'm fed up with his insisting on keeping Walker around when every single year, I see "fire walker" threads on this board--and for good reason. The team's approach to hitting is a joke, and the "pitch a shutout or lose" mentality is not the way to build a quality team. Maybe it's not Walker's fault, but every player on this team has a history of being able to hit--until they get to the Sox, when they suddenly can't.

This team needs new voices in the dugout, because what they have clearly isn't working at all. I believe the talent is there, but the people who run the show aren't capable of bringing it out. I'll be pissed if Ozzie and Walker are here after the break.

guillensdisciple
07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
Man, I can't wait to hear the excuses after this game.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
Nice homestand and a week ago I thought we would go 4-3 or maybe even 5-2. I should have remembered we weren't playing the NL anymore.

An abomination of a home stand that pretty much has me giving up hope on this team winning the division.

But I guess by Friday I will be tuning in. Wait that's Verlander's game. :(:Saturday then.

chisoxfanatic
07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
I need a drink, which I will be having shortly. I hope you get your hug.
I wish I could have a drink but I feel it would lead to another and another, so I'll stay with my water.

When we face the Twins the next time, chances are they will have all their guys back, so we won't be facing this AAA lineup we have been losing to. We'll probably go 2-16 vs. Minnesota this year (or something close to that).

kittle42
07-10-2011, 05:41 PM
Humber? Santos? AJ?

Humber is a sell-high reclamation project, the only thing KW does well.

Santos is a keeper.

AJ? Take advantage of the good numbers and trade him. While I typed that, someone just stole second base and there isn't even a game going on.

Dan H
07-10-2011, 05:43 PM
Fire ozwaldo and things will change, this is a depressed team that has an ******* for a field manager. They just want to play the game and get the **** out of there.

Firing Ozzie will help, but much more needs to be done before this team turns it around. They should have started making changes in May when this team showed how bad it was. If the organization sits and does nothing, it will only be deluding itself again.

LITTLE NELL
07-10-2011, 05:43 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.

What he needs to do is stand up to Ozzie. Ozzie is a poor manager and has a huge ego. It always has to be his way. Last year, the Sox went into a season with a black hole at DH because Ozzie "couldn't find the ABs" for Thome, a productive DH who *wanted* to come back here. Don't you think that could have swung a few games toward a Sox team that won 89 last year?

I'm fed up with Ozzie's stubbornness when it clearly hurts the team. I'm fed up with his insisting on keeping Walker around when every single year, I see "fire walker" threads on this board--and for good reason. The team's approach to hitting is a joke, and the "pitch a shutout or lose" mentality is not the way to build a quality team. Maybe it's not Walker's fault, but every player on this team has a history of being able to hit--until they get to the Sox, when they suddenly can't.

This team needs new voices in the dugout, because what they have clearly isn't working at all. I believe the talent is there, but the people who run the show aren't capable of bringing it out. I'll be pissed if Ozzie and Walker are here after the break.

I agree with everything you said, most of the people on this board were very happy at the time of the trades and signings by KW.
The manager and his coaches need to go.

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 05:43 PM
Fire ozwaldo and things will change, this is a depressed team that has an ******* for a field manager. They just want to play the game and get the **** out of there.
With all the money sunk in this roster, they should at least see what happens with a different manager, one of KW's choosing. If they don't turn it around then KW could be fired immediately after the season. But Ozzie needs to go now.

October26
07-10-2011, 05:45 PM
I need a hug!!! These guys have no heart! :(:

:grouphug: I understand how you feel.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:46 PM
With all the money sunk in this roster, they should at least see what happens with a different manager, one of KW's choosing. If they don't turn it around then KW could be fired immediately after the season. But Ozzie needs to go now.

Ok. I don't necessarily disagree but who will replace him? Cora would mean the same ol ****.

Tragg
07-10-2011, 05:46 PM
In the AL, the Sox are 9th in BA, 10th in OBP, 11th in Slugging. 11th in OPS and 9th in runs.

Conversely, we're 2nd in fielding, 6th in ERA, 7th in runs against and 7th in WHiP.

Easy fix here... Walker must go.
Well the pitching is only middle of the pack.
He's not the only one who needs to go.

soltrain21
07-10-2011, 05:47 PM
A different approach couldn't hurt.

Do you think these guys want to come back after 3 days off to the same things that don't work? Or could it be a breath of fresh air with a new hitting coach and something different?

BTW: Ozzie tried everything he can with these guys, benchings, days off, moving up and down the order and it doesn't work. What else can a manager do? A new hitting coach could do something...

He can get fired. That's what he can do.

And you realize KW has said Ozzie has control over his coaching staff, so why hasn't Ozzie fired Walker?

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 05:47 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.

What he needs to do is stand up to Ozzie. Ozzie is a poor manager and has a huge ego. It always has to be his way. Last year, the Sox went into a season with a black hole at DH because Ozzie "couldn't find the ABs" for Thome, a productive DH who *wanted* to come back here. Don't you think that could have swung a few games toward a Sox team that won 89 last year?

I'm fed up with Ozzie's stubbornness when it clearly hurts the team. I'm fed up with his insisting on keeping Walker around when every single year, I see "fire walker" threads on this board--and for good reason. The team's approach to hitting is a joke, and the "pitch a shutout or lose" mentality is not the way to build a quality team. Maybe it's not Walker's fault, but every player on this team has a history of being able to hit--until they get to the Sox, when they suddenly can't.

This team needs new voices in the dugout, because what they have clearly isn't working at all. I believe the talent is there, but the people who run the show aren't capable of bringing it out. I'll be pissed if Ozzie and Walker are here after the break.
I agree. The team is burnt out on Ozzie. He's lost the team and is not capable of motivating them. His in-game managing and lineup construction have always been bad, but now he can't even get his team up for games.

Fire Ozzie and let a fresh manager have a chance with this $125M roster. If the new guy can't turn it around, blow it up.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2011, 05:48 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.

What he needs to do is stand up to Ozzie. Ozzie is a poor manager and has a huge ego. It always has to be his way. Last year, the Sox went into a season with a black hole at DH because Ozzie "couldn't find the ABs" for Thome, a productive DH who *wanted* to come back here. Don't you think that could have swung a few games toward a Sox team that won 89 last year?

I'm fed up with Ozzie's stubbornness when it clearly hurts the team. I'm fed up with his insisting on keeping Walker around when every single year, I see "fire walker" threads on this board--and for good reason. The team's approach to hitting is a joke, and the "pitch a shutout or lose" mentality is not the way to build a quality team. Maybe it's not Walker's fault, but every player on this team has a history of being able to hit--until they get to the Sox, when they suddenly can't.

This team needs new voices in the dugout, because what they have clearly isn't working at all. I believe the talent is there, but the people who run the show aren't capable of bringing it out. I'll be pissed if Ozzie and Walker are here after the break.

Looking back with 20/20 hindsight, the best move to make before the 2010 season would have been to keep Thome and sign Jones. Against RHP, Thome would DH and Quentin would play RF (with Jones getting some starts there). Against LHP, Quentin would DH and Jones would play RF. We could have gone into 2011 with this same mix as well, had a better record, and had $56 million to spend on something other than Dunn.

Nevertheless, Walker definitely needs to go, and Ozzie actions seem to indicate he'd like to be fired.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2011, 05:48 PM
Bingo.......and indicative of the losing culture that has infected this fanbase and now this organization

I don't buy the whole "culture of losing" crap. I don't go into a game expecting to lose because of a "culture of losing", I expect the Sox to lose because we've got guys hitting like crap, starters who pitch a great game seemingly every game except for the games when we do hit, and a manager who sabotages/hamstrings the team routinely, whether it be in the lineup, with his bullpen moves, or with his bunting "strategy".

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 05:48 PM
At this point, I think it's time for Ozzie to go. I've defended Ozzie for years. But the writing is now on the wall. The sons floating around, the Marlins being interested...it's just time.

The question is will the Chairman allow Kenny to do it? Will Kenny do it?

I think a different man can help this team out. They're not playing like they love the game right now.

white sox bill
07-10-2011, 05:48 PM
The sun will rise in the East, set in the West, death, taxes and the Twins will beat us everytime....sigh

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 05:51 PM
At this point, I think it's time for Ozzie to go. I've defended Ozzie for years. But the writing is now on the wall. The sons floating around, the Marlins being interested...it's just time.

The question is will the Chairman allow Kenny to do it? Will Kenny do it?

I think a different man can help this team out. They're not playing like they love the game right now.

Ok but who is available? I am not arguing, I am just in the dark as to who might be able to a better job. Because he should not be fired until this person is identified.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 05:53 PM
Ugh.... I'll be back on Friday, for more punishment.

Tragg
07-10-2011, 05:53 PM
Time to give Hahn and Ozzie's yes-man a shot.

amsteel
07-10-2011, 05:54 PM
A few (mostly angry) thoughts:

After reaching .500 this team went 2-6 against teams 4th or worse in their respective divisions, needing walk-offs for the 2 wins.

We are paying in the neighborhood of 25$ M for Peavy's mouth and Dunn's sense of humor and humility.

The most positive part of Rios' season is Dunn being worse than him.

The only facet of this team that has shown any improvement during the course of the year has been the bullpen. Cheers to Cooper, Santos, Crain, and Thornton (since May) for keeping all the losses close.

Offensively there has been no improvement or signs of adjustment in 5 years.

In a division where one team actually had any balls, the Sox would be 10+ back.

I'd rather watch of team of hungry, unpolished prospects achieve the same W-L record than the same old **** circling the bowl and underachieving.

I won't say that I'm not going to anymore games, because well, Summer isn't summer without baseball. But I will continue to only buy tickets from secondary markets, and eat/drink outside the park because giving this team money at this point is the same thing as giving a dog a treat for ****ting on the carpet.

Dynamic pricing is going to backfire fiercely when no one is paying 40$+ to see a team 15 under play the Royals.

On a positive note, Alexei Ramirez looks like the happiest dude on the planet when he's having a good time. He had such a huge smile after the walk-off yesterday. If we all knew Spanish, I bet he would give awesome interviews.

The starting pitching has kept this year from being a total embarrassment.

The ONLY thing that would keep me interested in the 2nd half will be a house cleaning, whether its of staff, players, or both, the team in its current form is bad, uninteresting, and predictable.

Feel free to comment, critique, pile-on, etc. I hate to be so negative, but the Hater-ade is too refreshing to not sip at this point.

billyvsox
07-10-2011, 05:54 PM
My dream second half roster:

C) Aj and Flowers
Inf) Konerko, Beckham, Alexei, Morel, Lillibridge, Escobar
Of) Pierre, Quentin, Viciedo, Danks, De Aza, Gartrell

Sp) Buehrle,Humber,Danks,Sale,Floyd
Rp) Santos,Crain,Thornton,Santiago,Infante,Peavy

I can dream cant I...I have three days to dream till its back to the same old s**t

chisoxfanatic
07-10-2011, 05:57 PM
Ugh.... I'll be back on Friday, for more punishment.
Fortunately, I will be at Blackhawks Convention all next weekend. Fortunately, our opponent is not the Twins.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-10-2011, 05:57 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.

What he needs to do is stand up to Ozzie. Ozzie is a poor manager and has a huge ego. It always has to be his way. Last year, the Sox went into a season with a black hole at DH because Ozzie "couldn't find the ABs" for Thome, a productive DH who *wanted* to come back here. Don't you think that could have swung a few games toward a Sox team that won 89 last year?

I'm fed up with Ozzie's stubbornness when it clearly hurts the team. I'm fed up with his insisting on keeping Walker around when every single year, I see "fire walker" threads on this board--and for good reason. The team's approach to hitting is a joke, and the "pitch a shutout or lose" mentality is not the way to build a quality team. Maybe it's not Walker's fault, but every player on this team has a history of being able to hit--until they get to the Sox, when they suddenly can't.

This team needs new voices in the dugout, because what they have clearly isn't working at all. I believe the talent is there, but the people who run the show aren't capable of bringing it out. I'll be pissed if Ozzie and Walker are here after the break.

I agree with what you said about Ozzie but:

Peavy was not considered a top 5 pitcher in baseball. EVERYONE was aware of the huge discrepancy between his home and road numbers. Outside of Petco, he was a 3.75 ish ERA pitcher in the NL. If anything, he was considered a top 5 overrated player in baseball.

Rios was not seemingly burnt out from playing in an empty arena. He was a player with loads of talent that didn't give a **** and was lazy and EVERYONE knew that too. Another overrated player.

There's a reason that the above were so easily acquired. It wasn't brilliant maneuvering on KW's part, it was teams dumping contracts on him.

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 05:57 PM
I don't buy the whole "culture of losing" crap. I don't go into a game expecting to lose because of a "culture of losing", I expect the Sox to lose because we've got guys hitting like crap, starters who pitch a great game seemingly every game except for the games when we do hit, and a manager who sabotages/hamstrings the team routinely, whether it be in the lineup, with his bullpen moves, or with his bunting "strategy".
There's no "culture of losing" on the South Side, just on the North. We as a fan base don't and won't embrace that. As was said on the Sox Pride DVD, there was never any curse tied to us; we just had a lot of bad teams. The Black Sox scandal put the team in a hole it took 40 years to climb out of. We've never made the postseason in consecutive seasons, so we're just not a franchise that traditionally does that well. There's no culture about it however.

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 05:59 PM
Ok but who is available? I am not arguing, I am just in the dark as to who might be able to a better job. Because he should not be fired until this person is identified.
Whomever KW chooses and can get here. Some candidates are Ken Macha, Bob Brenly, Rhyne Sandberg, Dave Martinez, Bobby Valentine, Joe Torre, ..... I'm sure there are more.

captain54
07-10-2011, 05:59 PM
It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.
.

True, hindsight it 20/20, but this organization stubbornly refuses to even hint that this whole mess isn't working. Hahn (assistant GM) was on the SCORE this morning and said that the organization still believes it has all the right pieces in place, from top to bottom, to win the division.

It's great to have a positive attitude and follow the "hope springs eternal" line, but I've yet to hear one person with that attitude, whether it be the Sox brass or a fan on a fan board, offer any sort of logical reasoning as to what so far this team has shown to realistically think this is anything but a .500 ballclub, if that

BleacherBandit
07-10-2011, 06:00 PM
I want to see this team blown up but right now the only things that are keeping me watching are the players that should be traded. AJ, Buehrle, and Jackson are some of the only consistent players on this team and they all are in peril of being dealt if this season can't be salvaged.

Buehrle should have won that game yesterday. This offense is pathetic.

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 06:01 PM
I want to see this team blown up but right now the only things that are keeping me watching are the players that should be traded. AJ, Buehrle, and Jackson are some of the only consistent players on this team and they all are in peril of being dealt if this season can't be salvaged.

Buehrle should have won that game yesterday. This offense is pathetic.
Jackson is not consistent. I think he's far and away our worst starter. I know he's not horrible, but he gives me less confidence than anyone else in that rotation.

amsteel
07-10-2011, 06:03 PM
Jackson is not consistent.

He's always good for throwing 100+ pitches in 5 IP

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 06:03 PM
My dream second half roster:

C) Aj and Flowers
Inf) Konerko, Beckham, Alexei, Morel, Lillibridge, Escobar
Of) Pierre, Quentin, Viciedo, Danks, De Aza, Gartrell

Sp) Buehrle,Humber,Danks,Sale,Floyd
Rp) Santos,Crain,Thornton,Santiago,Infante,Peavy

I can dream cant I...I have three days to dream till its back to the same old s**t
Somehow replace Rios and Teahen with Viciedo and DeAza and replace Ozzie, Cora, Walker and Baines with new coaches and I'll be happy. I'd even start going to games again.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 06:03 PM
Whomever KW chooses and can get here. Some candidates are Ken Macha, Bob Brenly, Rhyne Sandberg, Dave Martinez, Bobby Valentine, Joe Torre, ..... I'm sure there are more.

I said people who would do a better job. Sandberg? Brenly? I don't know who Dave Martinez is. Macha not sure.

I also said "available". Do think Torre would want to manage the Sox?

Maybe Valentine, but was he really any good?

captain54
07-10-2011, 06:04 PM
Easy fix here... Walker must go.

you have no idea what a hitting coach does.. how dare you make that suggestion

Tragg
07-10-2011, 06:04 PM
I saw a lot of people blaming KW for this year's excruciating team, but I can't--he added Adam Dunn, a guy who was expected to hit 40 HRs by almost everyone, to replace the black hole that was Kostay/Jones. He added Jake Peavy, who at the time was considered maybe a top 5 pitcher in baseball, for a lot of guys who seemed like mediocre major leaguers at best. And he added Alex Rios, a 5-tool player who was (seemingly) burned out from playing in an empty arena in Toronto, to come to Chicago and replace DEWAYNE WISE.

It's a shame that every one of these moves backfired. Yes they were gambles, but I understand them and can't be too hard on him. Hindsight is 20-20.
A calculated gamble/risk is when you put up a little to win a lot. We put up a lot to win a lot. (peavy via players and contract; rios with his outrageous contract). And you're paid for results. Ozzie needs to go, but Peavy and Rios can't blame Ozzie for their pitiful performance.
Williams does so well in the small deals; he should stick to them. And then there are the 2 Swisher trades and others.

He reminds me of me at the track. I'll hit a longshot and have a couple of hundred in my pocket....and then put that couple of hundred down on some 8/5 who runs like Rios hits.

DickAllen72
07-10-2011, 06:05 PM
I said people who would do a better job. Sandberg? Brenly? I don't know who Dave Martinez is. Macha not sure.

I also said "available". Do think Torre would want to manage the Sox?

Maybe Valentine, but was he really any good?
I think any of the above would do better than Ozzie. He's lost the team, he's burned out and his antics and distractions have become very old.

kittle42
07-10-2011, 06:06 PM
I have an easy fix...Daver for manager. Everyone can hit .180, but no one will make an error. :)

Boondock Saint
07-10-2011, 06:07 PM
True, hindsight it 20/20, but this organization stubbornly refuses to even hint that this whole mess isn't working. Hahn (assistant GM) was on the SCORE this morning and said that the organization still believes it has all the right pieces in place, from top to bottom, to win the division.

This pisses me off, because it seems like all the important people are ignoring the fact that the team sucks whether or not they have a shot at winning the division. So we're hanging our hats now on the hope that the rest of the division sucks worse the rest of the way? "If only we can win this dog**** division, everything will be okay!" How can these people ignore the fact that winning this division means absolutely jack ****? Whoever wins the division is getting a swift kick in the ass on their way out of the postseason, because their team sucks. Winning the Central means nothing to me if it's not a stepping stone to something greater, and this team isn't on the path to something better than that. That's what I want management to see in this team.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 06:07 PM
I think any of the above would do better than Ozzie. He's lost the team, he's burned out and his antics and distractions have become very old.

You see I disagree and the Sox need to have a viable replacement lined up. You can't just ax him and hope a minor league manager will be better. I am still open to Valentine maybe.

Boondock Saint
07-10-2011, 06:10 PM
You see I disagree and the Sox need to have a viable replacement lined up. You can't just ax him and hope a minor league manager will be better. I am still open to Valentine maybe.

I've gotten to the point where I just want the Sox to lose quietly. I'm tired of hearing Ozzie bitch to/at the media and seeing his stupid ****ing comments on ESPN or in the newspaper.

TomBradley72
07-10-2011, 06:10 PM
Yesterdays game was just a fluke...

Not a fluke- just one of the 50-60 games that even the most horrible MLB team will find a way to win- even after at least 2 bonehead moves by the manager.

Those are basically the games we've won over the past few weeks- when the other team makes a bonehead move (Quade doesn't bring in lefty vs. Dunn/Pierre) or a fluke like a "Balk Off", etc. But do we win well played, tight games with solid defense or clutch hitting or effective "small ball"?

Nope.

Never.

Domeshot17
07-10-2011, 06:11 PM
Minnesota will always have our number as long as Ozzie manages. He doesn't have the mental toughness to lead a clubhouse versus a rival. All he has proven this year is he can do what he did last year, use the NL to get back to around .500 before pissing the division away again.

PeteWard
07-10-2011, 06:13 PM
I've gotten to the point where I just want the Sox to lose quietly. I'm tired of hearing Ozzie bitch to/at the media and seeing his stupid ****ing comments on ESPN or in the newspaper.

Then nothing is gained. This needs to be a good hire or the Sox will be in worse **** in 2012 and beyond.

BleacherBandit
07-10-2011, 06:14 PM
What's the anemic part of this Sox club? The offense. And to tell the truth, there are only three or four players you can heap all of the blame on. Dunn and Rios are veterans who have to find their stride (by themselves) because they have shown consistency in the past. Morel is a rookie so I'm not placing any of the blame on him. Beckham is currently the best fielding second baseman in the league so you can't leave him out of the lineup. And Juan Pierre has started to hit like he's supposed to. I don't think firing Ozzie is going to fix the offense, and therefore the team. Maybe JR and KW don't make the personnel changes we want them to because they value loyalty too much. But I think they've done about as much as they can do (in terms of commitment this season) aside from firing everyone.

Domeshot17
07-10-2011, 06:15 PM
Then nothing is gained. This needs to be a good hire or the Sox will be in worse **** in 2012 and beyond.

It is hard to argue any manager would be doing much worse than Ozzie right now. With the sheer talent on this team its an utter disgrace to be where we are at. This team has completely, 10000% abandoned Ozzie. This team literally looks like it hates playing baseball.

captain54
07-10-2011, 06:15 PM
This pisses me off, because it seems like all the important people are ignoring the fact that the team sucks whether or not they have a shot at winning the division..

the organization has themselves backed into a corner because at this point a) there is still some summer baseball left and and they don't want to hint at blowing it up and risk hinting to the potential paying customer that what they are paying to see is a mess, and b) they are infuriating fans who have watched the mediocrity from 06' and are BEGGING for this to be blown up.

either way, I think the organization is bracing for loads of empty seats the rest of the way and a serious drop in season ticket sales should this continue and the Sox drop to 4th. they can't be that dumb

amsteel
07-10-2011, 06:15 PM
Knowing how this team has operated lately, they'll think about it all week and fire Ozzie Friday morning giving his successor a couple hours to prepare.

chisoxfanatic
07-10-2011, 06:19 PM
I have an easy fix...Daver for manager. Everyone can hit .180, but no one will make an error. :)
Even better, have Daver bat 1-9. If he can hit a 6" target from 2500 yards away, hitting a baseball will be child's play. And, if the umpire DOES make a bad call, he'll bring out his elephant gun!

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-10-2011, 06:20 PM
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- Bob Geren, former A's manager

--------------------------------

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--------------------------------

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/mtgrnwdstar913/drunk.jpg

"Hey...dude, look, I think my team actually won a game. Man, that other manager must really suck."

- Reggie Greenville, local junior league manager in Tulsa, OK (1-83 career record)

--------------------------------

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/mtgrnwdstar913/gardy.jpg

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--------------------------------

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----------------------------

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doublem23
07-10-2011, 06:21 PM
I have an easy fix...Daver for manager. Everyone can hit .180, but no one will make an error. :)

We'd be undefeated as long as we find a way to win 0-0 games. :cool:

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 06:23 PM
You see I disagree and the Sox need to have a viable replacement lined up. You can't just ax him and hope a minor league manager will be better. I am still open to Valentine maybe.

They can find someone to finish the year out, then reevaluate in the offseason. I actually think Valentine would be an interesting choice. He is also outspoken.

It's not like they gave Oz a two-year deal with a bunch of rookies. We've seen similar mediocre results out of this management for almost a decade with the World Series run and 2008 being outliers. For a franchise with the top resources in the division, they should be a lot better year in and out.

You can't tell me that firing Ozzie will begin the apocalypse. It's already wrecked. This team is not winning the division with Ozzie managing or his staff coaching them sans Cooper this year. Believe that. And if they do somehow roar back and win, I'll eat it.

I just don't see how not making a move, even an intermediate one, is a hindrance.

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 06:24 PM
You see I disagree and the Sox need to have a viable replacement lined up. You can't just ax him and hope a minor league manager will be better. I am still open to Valentine maybe.

They can find someone to finish the year out, then reevaluate in the offseason. I actually think Valentine would be an interesting choice. He is also outspoken.

It's not like they gave Oz a two-year deal with a bunch of rookies. We've seen similar mediocre results out of this management for almost a decade with the World Series run and 2008 being outliers. For a franchise with the top resources in the division, they should be a lot better year in and out.

You can't tell me that firing Ozzie will begin the apocalypse. It's already wrecked. This team is not winning the division with Ozzie managing or his staff coaching them sans Cooper this year. Believe that. And if they do somehow roar back and win, I'll eat it.

I just don't see how making a move, even an intermediate one, is a hindrance here. The team has been consistently inconsistent for quite a few years now. Enough is enough.

Soxfest
07-10-2011, 06:25 PM
Knowing how this team has operated lately, they'll think about it all week and fire Ozzie Friday morning giving his successor a couple hours to prepare.

Nobody is getting fired during the season decisions will be delayed to September after the season is my guess.:angry:

harwar
07-10-2011, 06:26 PM
I don't know who Dave Martinez is.


Martinez (who is the Rays bench coach) will, more than likely, be managing next year or the year after .. i've heard nothing but good things about him .. that's quite a team they have down there in Tampa with Maddon and Martinez .. maybe that's why they do so well without spending a lot ..

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 06:30 PM
It was even worse to see the Twins faces light up like the smug little gnomes that they are the whole series. It was worse at the end. :angry:

amsteel
07-10-2011, 06:32 PM
Nobody is getting fired during the season decisions will be delayed to September after the season is my guess.:angry:

You're right, but it's clear that 2011 is ****ed, so why not get a headstart on 2012?

Probably because that requires foresight and common sense.

Soxfest
07-10-2011, 06:35 PM
You're right, but it's clear that 2011 is ****ed, so why not get a headstart on 2012?

Probably because that requires foresight and common sense.

I agree I want changes just not going to happen right now!

Tragg
07-10-2011, 06:57 PM
I agree I want changes just not going to happen right now!

I think it's likely that they'll make some changes that will save JR some money the rest of the way: Jackson. And Pierre if anyone wants him. (doubt MB because of PR hit, although it wouldn't be at PK levels)

DSpivack
07-10-2011, 06:59 PM
Martinez (who is the Rays bench coach) will, more than likely, be managing next year or the year after .. i've heard nothing but good things about him .. that's quite a team they have down there in Tampa with Maddon and Martinez .. maybe that's why they do so well without spending a lot ..

Former White Sox OF, too.

palehozenychicty
07-10-2011, 07:01 PM
I think Martinez would be a good candidate for anybody.

VenturaFan23
07-10-2011, 07:23 PM
And it continues! Does the Greg Walker come free as an added bonus? Well done, MtGrnwd!

Soxman219
07-10-2011, 07:27 PM
:shakehead:

Pretty much all I got.

amsteel
07-10-2011, 07:38 PM
I think it's likely that they'll make some changes that will save JR some money the rest of the way: Jackson. And Pierre if anyone wants him. (doubt MB because of PR hit, although it wouldn't be at PK levels)

Interesting point, they have to realize that if things continue going the way they currently are they aren't gonna get 30k+ on weekend and 22k+ on weeknights. You would think at some point they would have to cut costs.

BlackAndWhite
07-10-2011, 07:47 PM
"Well, I must have gotten a deluxe version, because not only does it manage right into my hands, it also shines my shoes, wipes my ass, and makes me breakfast. What's that all about?"

- Ron Gardenhire, Twins manager



I LOL'd

SoxSpeed22
07-10-2011, 07:57 PM
Ozzie should be on his plane headed to Miami, he can stay there for all I care. Kenny put us in this position and now we are financially handcuffed.
Sorry Jake, you don't have it anymore, he is a 4 inning pitcher at best now.
That also makes a .333 mark against the central, a 2-5 homestand against two teams below you does not bode well for the rest of the season.
The Twins act like they can do anything they want against us, there are plenty of analogies that would probably get me banned for making them.

StillMissOzzie
07-10-2011, 08:04 PM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/mtgrnwdstar913/billymays.jpg

"Hi, Billy Mays here, and I have to say 'thank you' to all the MLB teams that have gone out and made our baseball skill and self-esteem revitalizing item, the Chicago White Sox, an instant bestseller! So many of you have written in and told us all your success stories after using our product, and some of you have gone as far as to buy multiple quantities of our product and distributed them to friends, minor league affiliates, and Little League teams in your community!"

Sorry to edit my quote of your dissertation, but that was GOLD, Jerry - GOLD!

SMO
:gulp:

comet2k
07-10-2011, 09:16 PM
How bad are the Sox? Their second baseman spends time during a game writing a message in the infield dirt with his feet that says, "Chris Getz is gay," and signs it with his initials. During a game!

I like Beckham and think they should keep him, but if he is focused on sending a juvenile and inappropriate message to a friend during a game, what does that say about how he feels about the team and winning? Doesn't he care?

Is there any leadership on this team so that a player wouldn't even think of doing something so lame? What would Carlton Fisk have done to a teammate who did something like that.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 11:08 PM
Fisk, Luzinski, Koosman, Paciorek...one or all of those guys would have had a private talk with Gordon and got the point across.

Lip

slavko
07-10-2011, 11:21 PM
http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/mtgrnwdstar913/billymays.jpg


http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm117/mtgrnwdstar913/drunk.jpg

"Hey...dude, look, I think my team actually won a game. Man, that other manager must really suck."

- Reggie Greenville, local junior league manager in Tulsa, OK (1-83 career record)



This picture is missing a lot of duct tape. And the offer is missing "But Wait, Call Right Now And Get the Mini-Ozzie, Great For Pocket Or Purse....." Otherwise, great work.

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2011, 01:24 AM
I am fine with 3-4 years of Rios+Dunn+kids if we can rebuild.B.S. You'd be screaming by the middle of the second season. Just like all the people on here back before 2005 who said that if the Sox just won one WS they'd be happy for the rest of their lives. I called B.S. on that, too.

Dan H
07-11-2011, 07:42 AM
B.S. You'd be screaming by the middle of the second season. Just like all the people on here back before 2005 who said that if the Sox just won one WS they'd be happy for the rest of their lives. I called B.S. on that, too.

It's not total B.S. This team is so bad, anything else looks good. Why not rebuild? The long-term future doesn't look so good right now anyway. Another World Series? We don't have to be concerned with that right now.

Regardless, changes should have been made in May and they weren't.

Bucky F. Dent
07-11-2011, 08:13 AM
Easy fix? With these hitters? Yes, Walker must go, but do you really think things will be easily fixed if he does?


No. But someone's head needs to be on a pike outside U.S. Cellular when fans return - if they return - after the break. And Walker's head seems like a damned good candidate.

ChiSoxGirl
07-11-2011, 11:58 AM
Oh and here's another bit of good news...we start the second half with a tilt against Mr Verlander!!! Haha

Verlander vs. Floyd. There's an epic pitching match-up! :rolleyes: I know Ozzie's obsessed with throwing righty pitchers at lineups that are dominated by right-handed hitters, but there comes a point in time when you have to scrap that "logic" and think about who your two best pitchers are. If one of them happens to be left-handed, who cares? Go with the hot hand. And by all accounts, Buehrls is the hot hand. Why Buehrls and Humber won't be pitching in the series against the division leader after the break is beyond me. But, then again, most of what Ozzie has done this season has been beyond me and many of us, so I don't know what I'm :scratch: in regards to this assinine move. It's really no different than all the others he's made so far this season.

chisoxfanatic
07-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Verlander vs. Floyd. There's an epic pitching match-up! :rolleyes: I know Ozzie's obsessed with throwing righty pitchers at lineups that are dominated by right-handed hitters, but there comes a point in time when you have to scrap that "logic" and think about who your two best pitchers are. If one of them happens to be left-handed, who cares? Go with the hot hand. And by all accounts, Buehrls is the hot hand. Why Buehrls and Humber won't be pitching in the series against the division leader after the break is beyond me. But, then again, most of what Ozzie has done this season has been beyond me and many of us, so I don't know what I'm :scratch: in regards to this assinine move. It's really no different than all the others he's made so far this season.
I personally feel Ozzie is conceding that game on Friday, because we ARE facing Verlander, so he's throwing one of our worst pitchers on the mound. Let's face it...Floyd could have an awesome game (give up only 1 or 2 runs), but our offense probably is not going to see a lot of good pitches to hit, so it won't matter how Floyd pitches.

ChiSoxGirl
07-11-2011, 12:11 PM
I personally feel Ozzie is conceding that game on Friday, because we ARE facing Verlander, so he's throwing one of our worst pitchers on the mound. Let's face it...Floyd could have an awesome game (give up only 1 or 2 runs), but our offense probably is not going to see a lot of good pitches to hit, so it won't matter how Floyd pitches.

And, in my opinion, that's not the right approach for a manager to take. What's the old addage? Anything can happen in baseball. Keeping that in mind, Ozzie and the rest of the club should try to do anything they possibly can to win every one of the 70-some ballgames that are left.

kittle42
07-11-2011, 01:27 PM
B.S. You'd be screaming by the middle of the second season. Just like all the people on here back before 2005 who said that if the Sox just won one WS they'd be happy for the rest of their lives. I called B.S. on that, too.

I'd have to look back and see how much I complained in 2007, which was the last season I think we walked into with no expectations.

Nellie_Fox
07-12-2011, 01:03 AM
It's not total B.S. This team is so bad, anything else looks good. Why not rebuild? The long-term future doesn't look so good right now anyway. Another World Series? We don't have to be concerned with that right now.

Regardless, changes should have been made in May and they weren't.Why do people on the internets always change the argument? All I was addressing was the contention that he'd be happy to watch Rios, Dunn, and unknown rookies for the next four years. And that's B.S.; people would be screaming for heads by the middle of the second year of bad baseball, just like they're screaming now. Only then, they'd be adding on the "JR is cheap" charges, as well. Hell, there's a couple of people doing it now (looking at you, Russ) even with a record-high payroll, because it's not an unlimited payroll.

SI1020
07-12-2011, 08:10 AM
Why do people on the internets always change the argument? All I was addressing was the contention that he'd be happy to watch Rios, Dunn, and unknown rookies for the next four years. And that's B.S.; people would be screaming for heads by the middle of the second year of bad baseball, just like they're screaming now. Only then, they'd be adding on the "JR is cheap" charges, as well. Hell, there's a couple of people doing it now (looking at you, Russ) even with a record-high payroll, because it's not an unlimited payroll. Nellie we're looking at bad baseball with the potential to get considerably worse. It would be much better if the Sox changed course with an eye towards a better future. Right now to me it's lousy baseball with little hope, or a complete makeover which means at least several years of patience. Smart fans will be able to tell the difference between the two.

Lip Man 1
07-12-2011, 11:38 AM
SI:

The "box" though SI is the fact that unless the change is complete....Kenny, Ozzie, the coaches there are no guarantees that the same folks who can't seem to teach fundamentals and build a minor league system are going to get it right.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
07-13-2011, 12:58 AM
Nellie we're looking at bad baseball with the potential to get considerably worse. It would be much better if the Sox changed course with an eye towards a better future. Right now to me it's lousy baseball with little hope, or a complete makeover which means at least several years of patience. Smart fans will be able to tell the difference between the two.Which I'm telling you very few fans will be willing to give it.

RKMeibalane
07-13-2011, 01:07 AM
Which I'm telling you very few fans will be willing to give it.

Agreed. Very few people would be willing to sit through "The Kids Can Play II" around here.

A. Cavatica
07-13-2011, 06:57 AM
Agreed. Very few people would be willing to sit through "The Kids Can Play II" around here.

It's more watchable than what we've been given the last few years.

JB98
07-13-2011, 01:28 PM
Regardless of how the fans would feel about a rebuilding plan, I don't think *this regime* has the patience to see a rebuilding plan through to its conclusion. That goes for both the GM and the manager.

I don't see how they could possibly overhaul this roster anyway with some of the contracts they have.

It's basically these players or bust. Probably bust from what I've seen through 92 games.

Paulwny
07-13-2011, 02:23 PM
Which I'm telling you very few fans will be willing to give it.

Agreed. Very few people would be willing to sit through "The Kids Can Play II" around here.


This may be age related.
Younger fans may be willing to give the time for rebuilding.
Older fans may feel they've seen this before throughout the yrs. and don't want to experience the lean yrs. again.

kittle42
07-13-2011, 02:36 PM
This may be age related.
Younger fans may be willing to give the time for rebuilding.

In our new era of instant gratification? I think not.

BigKlu59
07-13-2011, 03:07 PM
In our new era of instant gratification? I think not.

Attention Spans aint what they used to be... Hell I'm at the pont in my 50's that if I take more than 2 mins to look over paperwork, people will think I have dementia and send me for testing...

We all got bit by the Championship Bug and once you're at the top you will not accept anything less moving on.. Human Nature..

Do we hold on to the guys that make you warm and fuzzy and are the link, or do you jettison in knee jerk fashion to keep the boat floating..

I know these guys are becoming painful to watch, but the one high spot is the pitching. Something also rans are drooling over..

This thing will turn around...It cant get any worse than it is...

Baseball.. Get em on, Get em around.. and get em in.. I they play 2nd half slappy baseball instead of trying to launch long flies they will be on top of the Division by 4 Mid-August.

BK59

Lip Man 1
07-13-2011, 03:21 PM
JB:

If there's one thing that might possibly cause Ozzie to quit it would be having to work with a bunch of kids next year. He's often said the big leagues are for winning, the minor leagues for teaching.

The mix would appear to be like oil and water.

Lip

SoxSpeed22
07-13-2011, 04:16 PM
I've said before that Ozzie and Kenny would want nothing to do with a rebuild. The question is whether or not Jerry wants to go through with it. He is 75 years old and took a big chance this year. Whatever we're in for will be up to him.

SI1020
07-13-2011, 04:27 PM
I'm an older fan and would much prefer a rebuild from the foundations at this point. Whether or not enough fans have the patience for it is irrelevant because at this point it's very close to a necessity.

DirtySox
07-13-2011, 05:03 PM
I'm an older fan and would much prefer a rebuild from the foundations at this point. Whether or not enough fans have the patience for it is irrelevant because at this point it's very close to a necessity.

I'm a younger fan and would prefer a rebuild as well. There isn't much to be excited about in coming years at this point either way.

Daver
07-13-2011, 05:27 PM
I'm an older fan and would much prefer a rebuild from the foundations at this point. Whether or not enough fans have the patience for it is irrelevant because at this point it's very close to a necessity.

Without a complete change in philosophy on scouting and development a rebuild project could realistically take over a decade to produce a winning team.

SoxSpeed22
07-13-2011, 05:39 PM
Without a complete change in philosophy on scouting and development a rebuild project could realistically take over a decade to produce a winning team.This is also what worries me about a total rebuild. In my eyes, that won't change until Jerry retires. Reinsy has always been cheap when it comes to coaches, scouts and draft picks that don't return an immediate profit. Whoever takes over will have to make it a focal point to build from within. None of us want to sit through a decade of last place baseball like Tampa did. That's time the Sox don't have since the Cubs are here.

whitesoxfan1986
07-13-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm a younger fan and would prefer a rebuild as well. There isn't much to be excited about in coming years at this point either way.
Yep. Not starting the rebuild this month is just delaying the inevitable. They had to win this season, because this was the "last hurrah" of these guys on this team. It failed miserably. With nothing in the minors, and bad, expensive veterans on this team, it is best to trade the guys that have value at their maximum. IMO, they should trade Konerko and Buehrle this month because their value to other teams is probably never going to be higher than it is right now again. I know it is probably not going to be popular, and might be considered a "white flag part deux," but this team isn't going anywhere any time soon. I have little faith that they can pull their heads out of their asses and win games at this point. The key to accelerating the rebuild process for the front office is getting the maximum value out of the tradeable veterans(Buehrle, Quentin, Konerko, Floyd, Jackson, Danks, Ramirez) and letting the three now albatross contracts in Rios, Dunn, and Peavy be the only big money ones on the books and let them run their course. If, however, they can get these guys off the books due to them having a good year, they need to do so. The FO also needs to realize that they have to spend more money on scouting/the draft if they're going to rebuild. Bring Major League payroll down significantly, and spend some of the savings on the draft/Int'l FA.

WhiteSox5187
07-13-2011, 06:12 PM
Without a complete change in philosophy on scouting and development a rebuild project could realistically take over a decade to produce a winning team.

Is that something that could be fixed by just getting rid of Kenny and bringing in a new GM or does the problem go deeper than that?

Daver
07-13-2011, 07:52 PM
Is that something that could be fixed by just getting rid of Kenny and bringing in a new GM or does the problem go deeper than that?

The true problem begins with whoever decides what the budget is.

SI1020
07-13-2011, 08:21 PM
Without a complete change in philosophy on scouting and development a rebuild project could realistically take over a decade to produce a winning team. Unfortunately that is probably true. SoxSpeed22 is also correct in that the Sox do not have the luxury of anywhere near that much time. It really is a tough place that the Sox now find themselves in.

Dan H
07-14-2011, 04:52 AM
Why do people on the internets always change the argument? All I was addressing was the contention that he'd be happy to watch Rios, Dunn, and unknown rookies for the next four years. And that's B.S.; people would be screaming for heads by the middle of the second year of bad baseball, just like they're screaming now. Only then, they'd be adding on the "JR is cheap" charges, as well. Hell, there's a couple of people doing it now (looking at you, Russ) even with a record-high payroll, because it's not an unlimited payroll.

I wasn't changing any argument. I've never been one for total rebuilds and bad baseball. All I was saying this team looks so bad almost any change would be welcome. Regardless, I don't have a great deal of faith in the current management to change things no matter how they do it. And I don't think anyone will be happy watching Dunn and Rios for the rest of the season much less the next four years.