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View Full Version : 5 Years of Underachieving? Anniversary of 19 inning "high water mark" game


Hitmen77
07-09-2011, 12:05 PM
It was on July 9, 2006, that the White Sox beat Boston in a 19 inning game to run their record to an excellent 57-31. This was the high water mark for the 2006 season. Unfortunately, they went 33-41 the rest of the way to finish in 3rd place.

Some fans seem to think that this team has been under-achieving for the most part since that game.

If I did my math correctly, the Sox have been 404-409 since that game 5 years ago.

Are you satisfied with how this franchise has performed over the last 5 years?

I didn't look it up, but what is our record vs. the Twins over this time? (maybe I don't want to know:mad:)

Jerko
07-09-2011, 12:11 PM
Ahh, I still remember Dye's HR in the 9th. Then that ill-fated Yankee series after the break was the beginning of the end.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2011, 12:16 PM
They really haven't been the same franchise since that game. Even the Red Sux went on to win the series in '07, and they've filled in with some good young arms and Adrian Gonzalez. The '08 team was a dying chugger by the end, although the play-in game was amazing.

Since then, the Sox have been treading water and submerged under. :(:

Soxman219
07-09-2011, 12:19 PM
Back then I was angry that the Sox weren't 20 games above .500. Now I'm hoping they can just reach .500.

SI1020
07-09-2011, 12:23 PM
It was on July 9, 2006, that the White Sox beat Boston in a 19 inning game to run their record to an excellent 57-31. This was the high water mark for the 2006 season. Unfortunately, they went 33-41 the rest of the way to finish in 3rd place.

Some fans seem to think that this team has been under-achieving for the most part since that game.

If I did my math correctly, the Sox have been 404-409 since that game 5 years ago.

Are you satisfied with how this franchise has performed over the last 5 years?

I didn't look it up, but what is our record vs. the Twins over this time? (maybe I don't want to know:mad:) When I posted as much a while back it didn't make me very popular around here. That being said the Sox had a nice 1 1/2 year run followed by a 5 year rut, with the future looking even bleaker. Is there anyone left with a pulse in this organization? If us dumb undeserving fans can see reality then what's up with management?

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2011, 12:59 PM
How can anyone be happy since mid-06. This team has under-achieved and has driven us all nuts. Even 2008 was a struggle.
The team needs to be broken up, I would keep PK, Santos and Viciedo and thats about it. We are stuck with Rios and Dunn but others could bring some players and prospects. Buerhle, Beckham, Floyd, Danks, TCQ and TCM should bring some quality in return.
And when I say break the team up, that means the manager and his coaching staff also.

TomBradley72
07-09-2011, 01:55 PM
Five years is a long time- very little evidence that Kenny and Ozzie were more than a "one hit" wonder for their 7.5 years together.

We'll be bad for a while- we have to carry ~$56M of payroll through next year with Rios/Dunn/Peavy/Teahen/AJ locked in through at least 2012.

Since we're bad and have low attendance which will get even lower- we won't re-sign Buehrle or Jackson (while Ariz enjoys 4-5 years of Hudson before FA)- and we don't have anyone in the farm system to really replace them.

Quentin may be decent trade bait. I doubt Beckham would bring much in return. Not many other pieces to move around.

KW has to go for the long shot of a strong rebound in the 2nd half to get attendance up and avoid disaster for several years. Fire Ozzie and replace him with the best guy for this year's team and the 2nd half. Make the long term replacement in the offseason.

That's what Schueler should have done at the break in 1997- fire Bevington and get ANYONE else- could have been the spark that would have avoided the whole White Flag stuff. Schueler and JR chose to "fire the players" while they left the biggest buffoon in MLB stay in charge- then fired him 2 months later anyway.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2011, 02:56 PM
I didn't look it up, but what is our record vs. the Twins over this time? (maybe I don't want to know:mad:)
I went back all the way to 2002, and we're 75-98 against the Twins since then. Since that year, we've only won the season series ONE time. But, since 2006, we've NEVER won the season series against Minnesota. We're 38-60 against the Twins since the start of that 2006 season. That's pure domination.

LITTLE NELL
07-09-2011, 03:29 PM
I went back all the way to 2002, and we're 75-98 against the Twins since then. Since that year, we've only won the season series ONE time. But, since 2006, we've NEVER won the season series against Minnesota. We're 38-60 against the Twins since the start of that 2006 season. That's pure domination.

Thank God we won the Blackout game in 08.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2011, 03:41 PM
It's going to be up to JR apparently if he wants to pull the trigger and do something. He's playing it close to the vest on how he's feeling but something did slip out earlier this week which could be an indication of things (maybe...)

Peggy Kusinski's cameraman was filming someone when JR could be heard within earshot, bitching about the team when he was down on the field.

We'll see.

Lip

GoSox2K3
07-09-2011, 10:05 PM
5 years is a long time for this team to underperform. Players come and go and we get the same mediocre results.

....and yet Kenny, Ozzie, and Walker appear to be secure in their jobs.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2011, 10:27 PM
5 years is a long time for this team to underperform. Players come and go and we get the same mediocre results.

....and yet Kenny, Ozzie, and Walker appear to be secure in their jobs.
For the most part, I think Kenny's found a good amount of diamonds. But Walker and Ozzie deserve a ton of criticism.

soxfanreggie
07-09-2011, 10:37 PM
Peggy Kusinski's cameraman was filming someone when JR could be heard within earshot, bitching about the team down on the field.

We'll see.

Lip


If I owned the team, spent as much on salaries as we have, and we were performing like this; I'd be ticked about our performance too. Then again, not everyone on staff would be back after the A-S break if I owned this team.

guillensdisciple
07-09-2011, 10:52 PM
This is definitely the most lopsided poll I have ever participated in.

Boondock Saint
07-09-2011, 10:56 PM
I remember that Boston game like it was yesterday. I was at the Taste with a couple buddies, and didn't know what was going on with the game. Every five minutes or so, I would stop the first random stranger on the street I saw wearing Sox gear to see if they had heard anything about the game. That day turned out pretty awesome.

I can't remember the last time I was that interested/invested in a Sox team. It's safe to say I'm not the least bit happy with how the Sox have done since then.

wassagstdu
07-10-2011, 08:30 AM
It is the GM who has brought this franchise to the brink of annihilation.

white sox bill
07-10-2011, 08:41 AM
Yes I remember that game well, was on road traveling out East and listened to it. IIRC Ozzie had 5 players who had to fly to the All Star game right after we beat Boston, thusly tiring them out even more.

With the exception of 2008 division title, its been downhill since

Dan H
07-10-2011, 09:47 AM
Many times when team management is criticized, we fans are told to remember 2005. Of course 2005 was great but how does that justify what has happened since? The White Sox have had some great moments since '05 but they have been pretty ordinary and sometimes outright bad as well. It's been disappointing that the team hasn't broken out of the Chicago baseball syndrome. It will take some time to get this team back on track.

TomBradley72
07-10-2011, 10:30 AM
It is the GM who has brought this franchise to the brink of annihilation.

Yep.

Starting with KW's desperation moves following 2007- trading an All Star/Cy Young candidate(Gio) for Swisher, followed by taking on huge contracts like Peavy and Rios, then the inexplicable 3 yr agreement for Teahen, followed by Hudson (#2 in NL wins behind Halladay since arriving in AZ) for Jackson, finished off with the investment of $4M in Manny Ramirez and $56M in Dunn- 4 months after letting Thome go to get more "flexible/athletic" at the DH position.

All while completely failing to develop any semblance of a minor league system after 10 years of being the GM.

Gavin
07-10-2011, 10:34 AM
It was on July 9, 2006, that the White Sox beat Boston in a 19 inning game to run their record to an excellent 57-31. This was the high water mark for the 2006 season. Unfortunately, they went 33-41 the rest of the way to finish in 3rd place.

Some fans seem to think that this team has been under-achieving for the most part since that game.

If I did my math correctly, the Sox have been 404-409 since that game 5 years ago.

Are you satisfied with how this franchise has performed over the last 5 years?

I didn't look it up, but what is our record vs. the Twins over this time? (maybe I don't want to know:mad:)

Nice poll. I'm sure a lot of people would be satisfied with a sub 0.500 record and literally No End In Sight when it comes to management, game philosophy, and the front office.

Red Barchetta
07-10-2011, 12:10 PM
Many times when team management is criticized, we fans are told to remember 2005. Of course 2005 was great but how does that justify what has happened since? The White Sox have had some great moments since '05 but they have been pretty ordinary and sometimes outright bad as well. It's been disappointing that the team hasn't broken out of the Chicago baseball syndrome. It will take some time to get this team back on track.


I hate when management, aka Ozzie or KW, make the short term memory statement about 2005. As a fan of the game, I don't expect the SOX to win the World Series every year. What I do expect however is a team that has the intent to win the World Series every year, the desire to win the World Series every year and the focus on fundamentals to help put them in position to win the World Series every year.

Watching this .500 average team perform just well enough to get my hopes up has been the most frustrating part of the stretch. Finishing 3rd in the AL Central is not my idea of a successful franchise. The NY Yankees represent the #1 market in MLB is always in the hunt. The L.A. Angels represent the #2 market in MLB are usually always in the hunt. The SOX which represent the #3 market in MLB is always around .500. To win the AL Central, we need to beat teams from Cleveland, Detroit, Minneapolis and Kansas City. As a result, the SOX play down to their level of competition instead of building a team/franchise to rise above it.

Dan H
07-10-2011, 12:31 PM
I hate when management, aka Ozzie or KW, make the short term memory statement about 2005. As a fan of the game, I don't expect the SOX to win the World Series every year. What I do expect however is a team that has the intent to win the World Series every year, the desire to win the World Series every year and the focus on fundamentals to help put them in position to win the World Series every year.

Watching this .500 average team perform just well enough to get my hopes up has been the most frustrating part of the stretch. Finishing 3rd in the AL Central is not my idea of a successful franchise. The NY Yankees represent the #1 market in MLB is always in the hunt. The L.A. Angels represent the #2 market in MLB are usually always in the hunt. The SOX which represent the #3 market in MLB is always around .500. To win the AL Central, we need to beat teams from Cleveland, Detroit, Minneapolis and Kansas City. As a result, the SOX play down to their level of competition instead of building a team/franchise to rise above it.

I don't really know if the White Sox play down to the level of the the likes of Kansas City and the rest of the AL Central. However, I agree what a great deal of what you say here. The team should always want to get to the World Series and we fans shouldn't be satisfied with one. After all, the 2005 WS appearance is the only one the team has had in the past half century.

And I also agree that it is time for the Sox to act like a large market team. Division play began in 1969 and the Sox have five division titles. That is not good.

russ99
07-10-2011, 03:30 PM
I don't really know if the White Sox play down to the level of the the likes of Kansas City and the rest of the AL Central. However, I agree what a great deal of what you say here. The team should always want to get to the World Series and we fans shouldn't be satisfied with one. After all, the 2005 WS appearance is the only one the team has had in the past half century.

And I also agree that it is time for the Sox to act like a large market team. Division play began in 1969 and the Sox have five division titles. That is not good.

That starts from the top on down, and frankly I don't see the commitment from ownership, despite this year's payroll.

Personally, I'm OK with a 88-92 win season and contention and would be happy with a playoff spot, but if the fans want the Sox to annual chances in the playoffs, then ownership needs to go the extra mile.

It's trickle-down, and even this season is suffering for it.

Had Jerry given Kenny enough payroll leeway in the winters of 2007 through 2010 (and invested some of that 05/06 profit, or even take a small loss like other owners) KW wouldn't have had to take risks on players like Swisher, Griffey, Andruw Jones, Manny; or make deals for risky high-payroll players like Rios and Peavy that haven't turned out. Heck, had Kenny had the financial leeway in the years before, getting someone like Dunn may have not been necessary.

That goes double for drafting and development. Our lack of a minor league system is less due to Kenny dealing away prospects, and more that ownership deems it an afterthought.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 03:33 PM
That starts from the top on down, and frankly I don't see the commitment from ownership, despite this year's payroll.

Give me a break, I guess you've run out of ways to defend Ozzie so now we have to attack Reinsdorf, the only guy in this organization pulling his weight? He gave Kenny and Ozzie a team record $127 million of payroll, blame those two idiots for ****ing it up.


Had Jerry given Kenny enough payroll leeway in the winters of 2007 through 2010 (and invested some of that 05/06 profit, or even take a small loss like other owners) he wouldn't have had to take risks on players like Swisher, Griffey, Andruw Jones, Manny; and make deals for risky high-payroll players like Rios and Peavy that haven't turned out. Heck, had Kenny had the financial leeway in the years before, getting someone like Dunn may have not been necessary.


What a crockload of bogus revisionist bull****. You have absolutely no idea what on Earth you are babbling about. You have no insight into the behind-the-scenes workings of the Sox. Now you're just chucking **** on the wall and hoping something sticks, I see?

The Sox persistently spend as much as anyone in the division and they persistently get pantsed by the Twins or Royals or Tigers. It's not 2002 any more. Jerry's opened up his checkbook. There are 20+ managers and GMs out there who wish they had the resources JR has invested in this team. Williams, Ozzie, and his group of idiot coaches are the worthless sacks of crap ****ing this up.

russ99
07-10-2011, 03:44 PM
Give me a break, I guess you've run out of ways to defend Ozzie so now we have to attack Reinsdorf, the only guy in this organization pulling his weight? He gave Kenny and Ozzie a team record $127 million of payroll, blame those two idiots for ****ing it up

What a crockload of bogus revisionist bull****. You have absolutely no idea what on Earth you are babbling about. You have no insight into the behind-the-scenes workings of the Sox. Now you're just chucking **** on the wall and hoping something sticks, I see?

The Sox persistently spend as much as anyone in the division and they persistently get pantsed by the Twins or Royals or Tigers. It's not 2002 any more. Jerry's opened up his checkbook. There are 20+ managers and GMs out there who wish they had the resources JR has invested in this team. Williams, Ozzie, and his group of idiot coaches are the worthless sacks of crap ****ing this up.

I've been on this board since 2003, and I've said this exact thing every single year.

If Jerry is such a great owner, then why does Kenny have "50 cents" every winter? Why did he go out and get Griffey and Manny? Why did have to take a flyer on Rios? Why did he trade for Peavy, when we were one starter short? Why is he forced to overpay on every trade/signing due to inherent weaknesses in the roster?

BTW: Ozzie wasn't mentioned or even implied in my post. Read it again.

Guess your obvious hatred for Ozzie is blinding you to why this team isn't in the playoffs every year. Who's going to be your scapegoat when he's gone? Who are you going to blame if we miss the playoffs again?

doublem23
07-10-2011, 03:47 PM
I've been on this board since 2003, and I've said this exact thing every single year.

If Jerry is such a great owner, then why does Kenny have "50 cents" every winter?

Guess your hatred for Ozzie is blinding you to why this team isn't in the playoffs every year.

Kenny has "50 cents" every year because he persistently stretches his payroll, GENERALLY THE LARGEST PAYROLL IN THE DIVISION, to the absolute max.

Again, there are 20-25 teams in the Majors who would love to have the resources Jerry has given KW and Ozzie.

Your love for Ozzie is blinding you to the main reason our teams are always overpaid and under-perform.

russ99
07-10-2011, 03:52 PM
Kenny has "50 cents" every year because he persistently stretches his payroll, GENERALLY THE LARGEST PAYROLL IN THE DIVISION, to the absolute max.

Again, there are 20-25 teams in the Majors who would love to have the resources Jerry has given KW and Ozzie.

Your love for Ozzie is blinding you to the main reason our teams are always overpaid and under-perform.

KW is always overstretched, because he has no money to spend in the winter, not vice-versa. It's trickle-down. Holes that are glaring due to the budget until the deadline are filled by either desperate moves or in overpayment, and those desperation moves further handcuff the club.

Had Jerry been more flexible in the winter, would Peavy, Rios, Dunn even be on the club now? Would Kenny have had enough to go after someone like Carl Crawford, rather than sign Dunn to a below-market deal? Would we have a better farm system?

Look at the teams in the playoffs every year. Are they saying they have "50 cents" every winter? No.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 03:58 PM
KW is always overstretched, because he has no money to spend in the winter, not vice-versa. It's trickle-down. Holes that are glaring until the deadline are filled by either desperate moves or in overpayment, and those desperation moves further handcuff the club.

Look at the teams in the playoffs every year. Are they saying they have "50 cents" every winter? No.

Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

JR has persisently given KW $90-$100 million every year to spend on payroll, if he's still surprised by how much he needs to budget then it's his fault. He is the general manager of baseball operations, it's his job to figure out the puzzle.

The teams that end up in the playoffs every year either have A) unlimited resources (if you're blaming JR for not spending like the Yankees, then I don't know what to tell you) or B) have front office and on-field management that seems to be competent.

You have persistently ignored the point that JR gives his guys more money to work with than roughly 2/3 of the league, and almost always more than the teams that win the division ahead of us. No surprise, as you are really reaching for straws right now.

russ99
07-10-2011, 04:02 PM
Bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla

JR has persisently given KW $90-$100 million every year to spend on payroll, if he's still surprised by how much he needs to budget then it's his fault. He is the general manager of baseball operations, it's his job to figure out the puzzle.

The teams that end up in the playoffs every year either have A) unlimited resources (if you're blaming JR for not spending like the Yankees, then I don't know what to tell you) or B) have front office and on-field management that seems to be competent.

You have persistently ignored the point that JR gives his guys more money to work with than roughly 2/3 of the league, and almost always more than the teams that win the division ahead of us. No surprise, as you are really reaching for straws right now.

Those 2/3 of teams in the league don't make the playoffs every year. We should jump up and down that Jerry deemed to raise the payroll over $110M? We should expect that Ozzie can manage teams into the playoffs held together with chicken-wire like in 2007 and 2009?

Even Bobby Cox had a solid roster, a proactive GM and a hands-off owner all the years the Braves made the playoffs.

Detroit has had a higher payroll than us the last 3 years, and Minnesota has the best player development system in the league, which is something our owner ignores.

Guess you're missing the obvious reason that those teams that beat us in the division the last few years, they have more talent than us.

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 04:05 PM
For me, it goes back to the day after AJ's game-winning homer at Wrigley. The fact that it's been five years now is very disheartening. You'd think JR would realize this by now and allow some changes to be made if not make changes himself. We as fans are clearly sick of it and if members of the organization do read this board as has been revealed recently, you'd think they'd get that message.

I don't pretend to know how baseball organizations conduct things, but I know when enough is too much. This is the appropriate time to say that. We want a roster with players who are proven and can put up their career numbers, not a group of veteran underachievers. I think I agree with others who say that watching a bunch of youngsters trying hard and failing would be far more tolerable, if not easier to watch. What we're seeing now is just bad.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 04:19 PM
Guess you're missing the obvious reason that those teams that beat us in the division the last few years, they have more talent than us.

No they ****ing don't. Last season, for example, take away the head-to-head games and the Sox had a better record than the Twins. It all came down to the play on the field directly between the two, and Ozzie's Sox withered in the limelight.

The Twins have several solid players, but most of their team is comprised of **** ballplayers who never go on to accomplish anything elsewhere. Numerous Sox castoffs (Swisher, Cabrera, Vazquez, Hudson) go on to perform well as soon as they get away from here. That has nothing to do with development and everything to do with coaching and management.

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 04:22 PM
No they ****ing don't. Last season, for example, take away the head-to-head games and the Sox had a better record than the Twins. It all came down to the play on the field directly between the two, and Ozzie's Sox withered in the limelight.

The Twins have several solid players, but most of their team is comprised of **** ballplayers who never go on to accomplish anything elsewhere. Numerous Sox castoffs (Swisher, Cabrera, Vazquez, Hudson) go on to perform well as soon as they get away from here. That has nothing to do with development and everything to do with coaching and management.
Are you saying Hudson wasn't good during the short time he was here? Because he was pretty impressive to me. Now I did think the price was right to get Jackson, but now, we know Jackson isn't the catalyst this team needed.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 04:24 PM
Are you saying Hudson wasn't good during the short time he was here? Because he was pretty impressive to me. Now I did think the price was right to get Jackson, but now, we know Jackson isn't the catalyst this team needed.

Hudson sucked in his short time here. He had a WHIP over 1.50, a K/BB ratio of 1.4, and was walking over 5 guys per 9 IP. That's terrible.

Hitmen77
07-10-2011, 04:25 PM
This is definitely the most lopsided poll I have ever participated in.

82 to nothing so far.

It may be a no brainer question to some, but IMO it's pretty damning to the current management that this is pretty much the unanimous feeling of respondent to this poll.

Given the widen variety of opinions and ranges of optimism/pessimism on this site, when you get everyone saying they're not satisfied, that really says something.

For me, it goes back to the day after AJ's game-winning homer at Wrigley. The fact that it's been five years now is very disheartening. You'd think JR would realize this by now and allow some changes to be made if not make changes himself. We as fans are clearly sick of it and if members of the organization do read this board as has been revealed recently, you'd think they'd get that message.

I don't pretend to know how baseball organizations conduct things, but I know when enough is too much. This is the appropriate time to say that. We want a roster with players who are proven and can put up their career numbers, not a group of veteran underachievers. I think I agree with others who say that watching a bunch of youngsters trying hard and failing would be far more tolerable, if not easier to watch. What we're seeing now is just bad.

They're also getting the message via ticket sales. If i'm not mistaken, attendance has dropped every year since 2006. The way 2011 is going so far, it may likely end up with another decline for the Sox.

Frater Perdurabo
07-10-2011, 04:27 PM
No they ****ing don't. Last season, for example, take away the head-to-head games and the Sox had a better record than the Twins. It all came down to the play on the field directly between the two, and Ozzie's Sox withered in the limelight.

The Twins have several solid players, but most of their team is comprised of **** ballplayers who never go on to accomplish anything elsewhere. Numerous Sox castoffs (Swisher, Cabrera, Vazquez, Hudson) go on to perform well as soon as they get away from here. That has nothing to do with development and everything to do with coaching and management.

You've made two excellent points here. Ozzie and his coaches have a knack for getting poor performance out of position players. There are other managers and coaches, such as Clint Hurdle and Rudy Jaramillo, who seem to get good results from their players.

thomas35forever
07-10-2011, 04:29 PM
Hudson sucked in his short time here. He had a WHIP over 1.50, a K/BB ratio of 1.4, and was walking over 5 guys per 9 IP. That's terrible.
Okay, you have a point, but in retrospect, we should have given him more of a chance.

russ99
07-10-2011, 04:30 PM
No they ****ing don't. Last season, for example, take away the head-to-head games and the Sox had a better record than the Twins. It all came down to the play on the field directly between the two, and Ozzie's Sox withered in the limelight.

The Twins have several solid players, but most of their team is comprised of **** ballplayers who never go on to accomplish anything elsewhere. Numerous Sox castoffs (Swisher, Cabrera, Vazquez, Hudson) go on to perform well as soon as they get away from here. That has nothing to do with development and everything to do with coaching and management.

Those **** ballplayers mostly outplay our guys.

Gardenhire is successful with those lesser players because most of them developed in the Twins system and were ingrained with a focus on fundamentals from the beginning.

The Sox prospects don't have that focus. If the Sox spent in drafting and development like other successful teams do, maybe they would. Maybe we could develop our own star players instead of overpaying for them.

Besides, it's a given that veteran players shouldn't be taught fundamentals like minor leaguers at the big league level, because it wouldn't work. Veterans have their own ideas on how they should do things. If our coaches can't get through to them, is that on the coaches or the players?

doublem23
07-10-2011, 04:31 PM
You've made two excellent points here. Ozzie and his coaches have a knack for getting poor performance out of position players. There are other managers and coaches, such as Clint Hurdle and Rudy Jaramillo, who seem to get good results from their players.

And even Clint Hurdle was fired by the Rockies just in time for them to go on a crazy tear under Jim Tracy. I think anybody with any understanding of the game of baseball understands that managers are not quite like players, you can't just rank them 1-30 and then #1 will automatically always be better than #5 or #10, etc. There's a mix between team, front office, and manager that has to exist.

Nobody is questioning that Ozzie can manage in the Majors. The way he commanded that 2005 team was simply brilliant. But it's 2011 now, and this team does not fit his style. Time to move on, both for the betterment of the White Sox franchise and Ozzie's professional career.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 04:35 PM
Those **** ballplayers mostly outplay our guys.

Gardenhire is successful with those lesser players because most of them developed in the Twins system and were ingrained with a focus on fundamentals from the beginning.

The Sox prospects don't have that focus. If the Sox spent in drafting and development like other successful teams do, maybe they would. Maybe we could develop our own star players instead of overpaying for them.

Besides, it's a given that veteran players shouldn't be taught fundamentals like minor leaguers at the big league level, because it wouldn't work. Veterans have their own ideas on how they should do things. If our coaches can't get through to them, is that on the coaches or the players?

Their team is **** players. The guys that drive us crazy are guys like Jason Repko or Nick Punto or Lew Ford or Carlos Gomez or Danny Valencia... You know what those guys have in common? THEY ****ING SUCK.

I won't argue the point that the Sox development has been atrocious, but I fail to see how that's anyone's fault but KW, he's the baseball guy around here. And as for the seamless way the Twins organization works, up there, Gardenhire has no problem inserting their young prospects into everyday service for the Twins when needed. Here, Ozzie has to make sure he gets plenty of PT for the Juan Pierres, Mark Kotsays, or Dewayne Wises of the world.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 04:45 PM
Okay, you have a point, but in retrospect, we should have given him more of a chance.

Hudson was bad here, so I don't fault the Sox for cutting ties with them when they felt they had a chance at the play-offs. Some guys just need a change of pace or a new coaching philosophy to thrive. We've seen that here plenty of times; Floyd, Jenks, Humber, Thornton, etc. All were very highly touted pitchers who never put 2 and 2 together until they came to the Sox. Perhaps Hudson is just the one that got away from us.

What's frustrating about that trade, in retrospect, is the inclusion of Holmberg, too. So we're picking up all the salary on this streaky veteran pitcher that you have no need for Arizona, and you need two young pitching prospects? Not good.

oldgrouch
07-10-2011, 04:46 PM
According to the guys on The Score this morning, we are a team of home
run hitters who can't tell a fast ball from a breaking pitch.:?::?:

Bob Roarman
07-10-2011, 05:07 PM
You've made two excellent points here. Ozzie and his coaches have a knack for getting poor performance out of position players. There are other managers and coaches, such as Clint Hurdle and Rudy Jaramillo, who seem to get good results from their players.

Rudy Jaramillo made his career on a long list of players involved heavily in PED use. Don't start with hitting coaches making a real difference at the major league level, please, just don't. They have a function, they may be good for a handful of players on the team, but when it comes down to making a difference in winning and losing ball games, they don't. The batting coaches on a team's minor league affiliates and developmental leagues have more of an impact on a player than any major league hitting coach.

And because I've seen it brought up in these debates, there is no comparison in it to pitching coaches. Entirely different.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 05:30 PM
Russ:

Sorry I can't buy your comment that these other teams have more talent the past few years in the division and that's why they beat the Sox...the Indians? the Royals???

PLEASE.

:rolleyes:

Those two teams were and have been absolute, unfettered crap the past few years...yet they regularly beat the Sox.

Lip

NLaloosh
07-10-2011, 10:52 PM
It is the GM who has brought this franchise to the brink of annihilation.

I've never seen so many bad deals in such a short amount of time - it's absolutely mind-boggling.

I don't want to argue these individual deals:
Swisher -Gio etc, Swisher for nothing, If we kept Swisher, wouldn't need to waste all that on Dunn. 3 BAD MOVES

Edwin Jackson for Holmberg and Hudson- this might end up hurting the most for the longest - BTW, the Sox could have saved $ 20 mi. this year because Hudson would be a better DH than Dunn - look it up

Jim Thome.

Jake Peavy for Clayton Richard and 3 more pitchers. I said at the time I wouldn't take his contract if we gave them nothing. Richard will win more games during Peavy's Sox career than Jake. Also, Peavy's in-and-out of the rotation will screw up the Sox staff for years to come.

Jaun Pierre. Just give Pods the couple more bucks he wanted. It would have cost much less and saved us 2 more pitching prospects.

Mark Teahen.

Letting J.J. Putz go ! Couldn't pay him $ 4 mil. needed all the dough for Dunn. Note: good move signing Putz in 2010.

Alex Rios- I don't know what to say.

Beckham, Sale and Morel - do you like the way they've been handled? Confident about their productive futures?

Should I even mention the farm system consistently ranked in the bottom 5 of baseball during his tenure?

There was just a flurry of international signings....didn't see the Sox mentioned.....guess not much baseball talent in Latin America.

Thanks for Quentin and Humber. Since 2008, he has been an unmitigated disaster. The AL Central has been the easiest divsion to win and despite the highest payroll won it once.

There is no doubt that if Kenny Williams did nothing at all after the 2007 season that this team right now and entire organization would be in better shape!

Now, barren farm system, poor coaching and scouting and stuck for 4 years with huge unmoveable contracts.

Why is it Lance Berkman and so many other players refuse to come here? And, John Danks will be gone. He will be succeed elsewhere.

Is there anyone that actually has any confidence in Kenny Williams next trade? Do you really want him to make another deal?

I know! Let's have Kenny Williams rebuild!

SoxandtheCityTee
07-10-2011, 11:23 PM
I remember that game well. Though they won it, I had such a bad feeling. Not hindsight -- as is usually the case in very long extra inning games, scoring opportunity after scoring opportunity was blown, and I and the people I was with were testy with near-heatstroke, fed up with the Sawx fans seated near us and short of patience.

As someone said, thank God for the blackout game.

jdm2662
07-10-2011, 11:48 PM
Am I happy about the last five years?

Let's see, on July 4, 2006, I went to a Sox game with some woman I never met. We saw a 13-0 win against BALT and got on TV when Uribe homered. To the surprise of everyone, including myself, the chick decided to see me again.

Then, on July 4, 2007, I went to the ball park and asked the same chick to marry me.

On July 4, 2008, I married her.

My life since then is completely different, and it couldn't be any better.

Oh wait, we are talking about the Sox... Well, I've had my moments at the ballpark (especially 2008 when I went 9-2 including the tie-breaker game). However, I can't say the overall results have been great...

CLUBHOUSE KID
07-10-2011, 11:58 PM
No they ****ing don't. Last season, for example, take away the head-to-head games and the Sox had a better record than the Twins. It all came down to the play on the field directly between the two, and Ozzie's Sox withered in the limelight.

The Twins have several solid players, but most of their team is comprised of **** ballplayers who never go on to accomplish anything elsewhere. Numerous Sox castoffs (Swisher, Cabrera, Vazquez, Hudson) go on to perform well as soon as they get away from here. That has nothing to do with development and everything to do with coaching and management.

Thank you.

Bob Roarman
07-11-2011, 06:09 AM
Yeah a lot of that is the same old repackaged bull**** that people have been telling themselves over the past year(s). Just use common sense. What would you say is the best way to define which of two teams is better than the other with close records? Oh I don't know, maybe if they went head to head against each other for, say, 18 games during the season? We can call it their division series. Wait those wouldn't count? We would just throw those games out the window? Yeah they're better....they just can't....ever....beat...them. But they're better! We know that much for sure! Yeaaah.

What's more likely here, that on the grand stage of Minnesota, the Sox wither and die under I guess suddenly now the hottest of pressure cookers in the Major League, or the Twins are just slightly better than the Sox and (especially this) are a good match up against them? What's the more realistic option?

Hell you're talking about an entire whopping 2 game edge to the Sox when you throw out that series like that's proof positive of THINGS AREN'T AS THEY SEEM! And that's throwing out all the evidence that points to the contrary and seeing it as some sort of anomaly or something, which is ridiculous. It's not really an anomaly when it happens season after season. Imagine doing that with anything else:

"These finger prints on the gun and bullet casing found at the scene of the crime confirm the defendant as guilty, as well as the 5 different eye witness accounts of the crime. Defense rests."

"Ladies and gentleman of the jury, my defendant couldn't have done this crime. First of all, let's throw out the fact that his finger prints are on the murder weapon..."

Just use common sense.

And those players he listed? Swisher had a pretty good season with the Yankees last year, he's back to his career averages again, same as the first season he played for them. Cabrera, outside of the stupidity, played well for the one season he was here, so I don't get that inclusion. Vazquez is getting his ass kicked now even in the National League after being bad with the Yankees the season before. And Hudson, like double said himself, was never here long enough to get a good opinion or look at him.

doublem23
07-11-2011, 09:01 AM
The Twins suck. They are not an elite team, except when they play the Sox. You want to pretend like that's not the case because they had THE GREAT CARLOS GOMEZ in CF, by my mother****ing guest.

Hitmen77
07-11-2011, 09:43 AM
I'm most dissatisfied with the how the Sox have performed since the start of the 2009 season.

2006's fade was disappointing, but I thought that would be a short term downturn. 2007 was very disappointing, but it was obvious that the Sox had a lot of holes in their lineup.

2008 was quite maddening. Despite winning the division, it never seemed like the Sox really clicked. I believe the Sox had a 6.5 game lead on the Twins at some point and then blew it and thankfully salvaged the season at the very end with that incredible comeback. Of course, that left us with Vazquez as our opening pitcher in the playoffs.....but hey, they made the post season.

However, since 2009 it just seems like this teams is underperforming on a regular basis. In '09, they were able to climb to a 1st place tie on the day of the perfect game and then they did the typical White Sox fold and finished below .500.

In 2010, the win total was inflated by that insane 25-5 run they had in June. Other than that, they had a patented White Sox slow start and a patented White Sox late season fold.

2011 is even worse than 2010. $125M payroll and this team can't hit. $24M this year alone for Rios and Dunn and both are locked up through 2014. If that isn't bad enough, aside from Viciedo, there doesn't seem to be anyone in the minors on the horizon that promises to be even an acceptable major league starter in the near future. Maybe the Sox will rush Keenyn Walker to the majors and have him flounder just like Beckham has.

What's really galling is to constantly hear that Kenny, Ozzie, and Walker are doing a great job. In fact, lately it seems like every time Ozzie opens his mouth makes me glad I have no more tickets purchased for the rest of this season.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-11-2011, 10:14 AM
The Sox are going to be paying out tens of millions of dollars on SP, OF and DH while Hudson, Gio and Young are better than all of them. For me, those three personify KW's work since 06.

Bob Roarman
07-11-2011, 05:54 PM
The Twins suck. They are not an elite team, except when they play the Sox. You want to pretend like that's not the case because they had THE GREAT CARLOS GOMEZ in CF, by my mother****ing guest.

Quote me where I said they were elite. Didn't say that.

chisoxfanatic
07-11-2011, 06:24 PM
I would like the lone poster who voted "Yes" to REALLY explain his or her position!

Hitmen77
07-12-2011, 01:55 PM
One of the things I'm disappointed about is the continued lack of talent in the Sox farm system. They supposedly had a "shake up" of their farm system and brought in Buddy Bell. ....but it's been several years now and people are still talking as if our farm system is practically devoid of talent.

We do have Beckham, Morel, Sale, and Santos as recent products of our farm system. We got Beckham courtesy of our #8 overall draft pick after our 90-loss season. But he was rushed through the minors and hasn't looked all that impressive after his initial success in '09. Morel and Sale? I guess we'll see how they progress. Santos is the one farm product who is clearly a success.

Without much in the way of our own talent, the Sox have to overpay for overpriced, mediocre veterans like Swisher, Dunn, and Jackson.

Of course, our farm system did also produce Gio Gonzalez and Daniel Hudson, but they were shipped off for 1 yr of Swisher and 1+ yr of Jackson.

GoSox2K3
07-18-2011, 02:42 PM
As if the last 5 years of mediocrity aren't bad enough, it looks like the Sox are really boxing themselves into a corner for the near future. There is very little talent in the farm system and the team is saddled with huge contracts to bad players.

The Sox owe Dunn and Rios a ton of money through 2014, owe oft-injured Peavy a bunch through the end of next year, etc. With attendance continuing to decline thanks to this year's very unimpressive team, I'm guessing that Sox ownership will feel that they have way over extended themselves with this $125M payroll.