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View Full Version : Who will be gone from the Sox after ASB?


gosox41
07-08-2011, 10:09 PM
Change is coming. I had a bad feeling going into this series. I saw the first inning at a bar. When I got home I turned on the game and say we were losing to the greatest team ever.

It's so White Sox to actually score some runs early and then take the rest of the game off. And way to put extra pressure on the pitchers who alrady know that in most games if they give up more 3 runs in 9 innings there's a very good chance we are going to lose.

I would think KW would be a total fool not to do something going into the break (and yes I'm assuming we lose tonight and the Sat and Sun games) because we are playing the greatest team ever.

I'm sure Ozzie will still be around. JR probably won't get rid of KW, thoughb he should as I don't know if I want him to handle the inevitable selling we'll be doing going into July 31. Maybe Cora as a way to send a message to Guillen. Walker is an obvious pick. Minor leagues for Bacon or Morel?? Not unlikely. Trading Quentin for that young Atlanta pitcher (Beachi???) and bring up Viciedo?? Anything is possible.


Bob

Frater Perdurabo
07-08-2011, 10:19 PM
Ozzie, Cora and Walker

Viva Medias B's
07-08-2011, 10:30 PM
Probably nobody. Of course, that is not how it should be but with JR being loyal to a fault, job security is plentiful.

Nelfox02
07-08-2011, 10:34 PM
ASB? no one

trade deadline? there likely will be some salary dumping---but I dont see any management or coaches gone

off season? who knows

Tragg
07-08-2011, 10:39 PM
Walker and a couple of young players will be gone. A veteran who plays ozzie-ball, probably from the roster of Arizona or Houston, will be here. (well may take a couple of weeks).

PaleHoser
07-08-2011, 10:39 PM
The only thing we have to deal is pitching. I figure Thornton or Crain and one of the starters. Not much else to move.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2011, 10:43 PM
Bob:

Normally, logically, you would assume some changes would be made but according to what I was told this afternoon by a member of the front office I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

I was told (direct quote) "the prevailing attitude is we can still win this division..."

There you go.

Lip

Daver
07-08-2011, 10:47 PM
The only thing we have to deal is pitching. I figure Thornton or Crain and one of the starters. Not much else to move.

I think Dayan Viciedo will be moved.

DirtySox
07-08-2011, 10:49 PM
I think Dayan Viciedo will be moved.

You aren't the only one.

palehozenychicty
07-08-2011, 10:53 PM
If they do trade Dayan as their only move, then I'll wonder about my team very deeply. Very deeply.

all*star quentin
07-08-2011, 10:56 PM
If Cora is gone, it won't be sending the message you think to OG. Last season Cora interviewed with the Brewers for the manager position.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/10/18/brewers-to-interview-pat-listach-joey-cora-for-manager-job/

Nelfox02
07-08-2011, 10:56 PM
Bob:

Normally, logically, you would assume some changes would be made but according to what I was told this afternoon by a member of the front office I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

I was told (direct quote) "the prevailing attitude is we can still win this division..."

There you go.

Lip


wish I was as ignorant as they are......must be nice to not be botered by the reality that is the White Sox perpetual ineptitude

Daver
07-08-2011, 10:58 PM
If they do trade Dayan as their only move, then I'll wonder about my team very deeply. Very deeply.

His value will never be higher than it is right now, and the White Sox have no use for him in the long run, they gambled on him being able to play a position, and lost.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2011, 11:04 PM
Daver:

If what you say is true, what would a reasonable return be?

Lip

A. Cavatica
07-08-2011, 11:08 PM
If they do trade Dayan as their only move, then I'll wonder about my team very deeply. Very deeply.

You're not already?

You haven't been for months?

Daver
07-08-2011, 11:15 PM
Daver:

If what you say is true, what would a reasonable return be?

Lip

Depends on the partner, if they are deep in pitching prospects he might bring a couple, but there is a school of thought that minor league pitching has very little value, and I share that view in many ways.

The White Sox are not going to get a windfall for Dayan Viciedo, he has little value outside the AL.

Dan H
07-08-2011, 11:18 PM
Bob:

Normally, logically, you would assume some changes would be made but according to what I was told this afternoon by a member of the front office I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

I was told (direct quote) "the prevailing attitude is we can still win this division..."

There you go.

Lip

They actually think this team can win this division? With thinking like that, no wonder this franchise is going nowhere.

Noneck
07-08-2011, 11:21 PM
I still think that the Sox think Viciedo can be the ribbon around a turd. Nothing at this stage of a very expensive lost season is more important than long green.

Tragg
07-08-2011, 11:36 PM
Depends on the partner, if they are deep in pitching prospects he might bring a couple, but there is a school of thought that minor league pitching has very little value, and I share that view in many ways.


How about a good young outfielder or prospect?

Daver
07-08-2011, 11:42 PM
How about a good young outfielder or prospect?

You are not going to get an MLB player for Dayan, maybe a Jordan Danks type minor leaguer, and a low A throw in.

VMSNS
07-08-2011, 11:48 PM
I think we'll probably trade Jackson. There's also a possibility that Quentin may be gone as well, depending if Kenny decides to sell. Other than that...I don't anticipate that much change. This organization will continue to be tolerant of ineptitude, especially when it comes to Kenny and (especially) Ozzie.

kaufsox
07-09-2011, 12:01 AM
Somebody mentioned the other day on 670 that if there was a GM out there who would make some moves to just shake things up, it was Kenny. As much as I'd like to believe that, I just don't. For all of the hype about him being a gambler, he really is more like a one of those guys from Pawn Wars, trying to make money off of cast offs, or finding treasure in the attic. I wish he'd just decide, screw it, out with as much as he can move, and see if a genuinie shake up can light a fire because what they got right now ain't working.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2011, 12:02 AM
You're not already?

You haven't been for months?

Oh, I am. I am. Hell, we have bathed way down in the hole of liquid hot core. :D:

palehozenychicty
07-09-2011, 12:06 AM
Somebody mentioned the other day on 670 that if there was a GM out there who would make some moves to just shake things up, it was Kenny. As much as I'd like to believe that, I just don't. For all of the hype about him being a gambler, he really is more like a one of those guys from Pawn Wars, trying to make money off of cast offs, or finding treasure in the attic. I wish he'd just decide, screw it, out with as much as he can move, and see if a genuinie shake up can light a fire because what they got right now ain't working.

Exactly. This is one reason why this team doesn't make the playoffs consistently. It's hard to run a franchise that way.

palehozenychicty
07-09-2011, 12:07 AM
I think we'll probably trade Jackson. There's also a possibility that Quentin may be gone as well, depending if Kenny decides to sell. Other than that...I don't anticipate that much change. This organization will continue to be tolerant of ineptitude, especially when it comes to Kenny and (especially) Ozzie.

I think Jackson or Floyd going is fine with me. Neither of them are consistent enough for their salary level.

NLaloosh
07-09-2011, 12:13 AM
I don't believe any moves will be made in the next week.

I also don't believe they will trade Viciedo. They have to realize that they must rebuild and with Pierre gone I think he's the 2012 LFer.

I'd be stunned if Jackson and Pierre are still here at the end of July. Who else can they move? Buehrle? I doubt it.

I pedict no coaching staff changes during the season.

voodoochile
07-09-2011, 12:46 AM
You are not going to get an MLB player for Dayan, maybe a Jordan Danks type minor leaguer, and a low A throw in.

If his bat is DH capable then someone will either let him DH or stick him where he can do the least damage defensively and let him hit. Baseball has plenty of guys who can't field a lick making plenty of money because they can hit and though we don't know for sure if Viciedo can hit effectively for average and power in the majors there are signs he can and will.

I'm not expecting any immediate moves over the ASB as the Sox for all their problems remain only 5.5 games out, but if they end up getting swept JR might say enough is enough. Guess we'll find out. I wouldn't be shocked if that day comes if the Sox offer PK the chance to play out his contract for the Dbacks who could use an upgrade at 1B near as I can tell, but if they close the books on this season and decide this team simply cannot be what it looks like it should be on paper then they are going to have to go hard into rebuilding mode and start to dump a bunch of guys and PK would make sense as forcing him to captain a rebuilding project in his final few years would suck.

I also wouldn't be shocked to see them move TCQ and give Viciedo a chance to play the second half either in RF or at 1B.

If they can get anything for Pierre they will let him go too.

Rios and Dunn aren't going anywhere unless the Sox eat a boatload of their contract.

chisoxfanatic
07-09-2011, 12:54 AM
Rios and Dunn aren't going anywhere unless the Sox eat a boatload of their contract.
If they are claimed off waivers, I know we'd be on the hook for half the salary this year. But, is it just this year, or the life of the contract?

I'd do it and bring up Tank to be our permanent DH. One less headache to have to deal with.

voodoochile
07-09-2011, 12:56 AM
If they are claimed off waivers, I know we'd be on the hook for half the salary this year. But, is it just this year, or the life of the contract?

I'd do it and bring up Tank to be our permanent DH. One less headache to have to deal with.

I don't think the Sox would be on the hook for any salary if some team claims them. They would have already paid 1/2 year's salary but Toronto isn't paying any of Rios' salary and if the Sox would be on the hook then Toronto would be.

PalehosePlanet
07-09-2011, 01:01 AM
If his bat is DH capable then someone will either let him DH or stick him where he can do the least damage defensively and let him hit. Baseball has plenty of guys who can't field a lick making plenty of money because they can hit and though we don't know for sure if Viciedo can hit effectively for average and power in the majors there are signs he can and will.

I'm not expecting any immediate moves over the ASB as the Sox for all their problems remain only 5.5 games out, but if they end up getting swept JR might say enough is enough. Guess we'll find out. I wouldn't be shocked if that day comes if the Sox offer PK the chance to play out his contract for the Dbacks who could use an upgrade at 1B near as I can tell, but if they close the books on this season and decide this team simply cannot be what it looks like it should be on paper then they are going to have to go hard into rebuilding mode and start to dump a bunch of guys and PK would make sense as forcing him to captain a rebuilding project in his final few years would suck.

I also wouldn't be shocked to see them move TCQ and give Viciedo a chance to play the second half either in RF or at 1B.

If they can get anything for Pierre they will let him go too.

Rios and Dunn aren't going anywhere unless the Sox eat a boatload of their contract.

At this point we just have to be optimistic and figure/hope that they are each having their career bad years and will rebound next year. They're not going anywhere.

Pierre and Jackson are likely gone by the deadline, but I think JR, for the same reason Guillen and Walker are still here, will balk at trading Buehrle.

HarryChappas
07-09-2011, 01:10 AM
[/B]

At this point we just have to be optimistic and figure/hope that they are each having their career bad years and will rebound next year. They're not going anywhere.

Pierre and Jackson are likely gone by the deadline, but I think JR, for the same reason Guillen and Walker are still here, will balk at trading Buehrle.

I know no one wants to hear this but Buehrle and PAULIE will be available. This is bad! Very bad!

Nelfox02
07-09-2011, 01:14 AM
I know no one wants to hear this but Buehrle and PAULIE will be available. This is bad! Very bad!


I dont mind hearing it......those 2 are great guys and I have enjoyed having them on the team all these years, some unforgettable moments.....but I am ready for a complete team reboot from management to coaches to players


we have not gone anywhere since 05 with this regime (did anyone really have expectations for the 2008 team in the post season?) its time for drastic changes

Nellie_Fox
07-09-2011, 01:33 AM
If they are claimed off waivers, I know we'd be on the hook for half the salary this year. But, is it just this year, or the life of the contract?If someone makes a waiver claim, they get the player and his contract. The claiming team starts paying the salary from the day they get him. The Sox would be on the hook for nothing.

TaylorStSox
07-09-2011, 01:43 AM
I wish it would be Hawk. A game might be bearable to watch again. Yeah, we know. The Twins are fundamentally sound. They make things happen. They own us. They're also an even ****tier team than us this year. This era of Twins baseball hasn't produced one playoff series win. The love fest for the Twins really pisses me off.

Back to the thread... I don't care who they fire. But, for the love of God, fire somebody. I love KW, but fire him. Fire Ozzie. Just do something. For a while we were funny bad. It's beyond that now. It's not even angry bad. We're sad bad.

kufram
07-09-2011, 09:21 AM
I think there is a good chance Viciedo is the only one gone and that would be a shame, but we have the DH an awful lot of people wanted so we will live or die with Dunn. I wouldn't mind Rios being put on waivers but all that would achieve, possibly, would be to let him know his actual value to us at the moment which could just make him care even less if that is possible.

I think that management made a plan and are going to stick with it for the season and I think that is what they should do. A lot of fans have given up, and I can see why, but a ship of this size doesn't turn as quickly as some people seem to think it can. Of course they can still win the division even if the Twins win the next two games before the ASB. We have pitching and defense (well, most of the time). Some hitters need to remember how to hit. That is not impossible. Would I bet on it? No. But I'm not a betting man.

tstrike2000
07-09-2011, 09:28 AM
The coaching staff outside of Cooper?

Dan H
07-09-2011, 09:46 AM
I think that management made a plan and are going to stick with it for the season and I think that is what they should do. A lot of fans have given up, and I can see why, but a ship of this size doesn't turn as quickly as some people seem to think it can.


I agree that change cannot come quickly, and I have resigned myself to the fact that nothing dramatic will happen this season and we will just have to live with the results.

However, once the year is over and the White Sox are out of the playoffs again, I hope there is some serious evaluation done by the franchise. And I don't just mean why this team failed in 2011. Since the early Seventies, this team has followed the pattern of building up to having one or two great years followed by a slide back to being an also-ran. Players have changed, owners have changed, ballparks have changed. The results have remained the same.

After 2005, I didn't hope for a dynasty, but I hoped the White Sox would become an elite American League team. I also hoped for that after 1983, 1993, and 2000. It didn't happen.

I don't want change just for change sake. I would like see change that produces long-term results. For a change.

SI1020
07-09-2011, 10:02 AM
I think that management made a plan and are going to stick with it for the season and I think that is what they should do. I've done that very thing in my personal life. It's a mistake. Sometimes you have to bite the bullet, take the pain and make a drastic change.


I agree that change cannot come quickly, and I have resigned myself to the fact that nothing dramatic will happen this season and we will just have to live with the results.

However, once the year is over and the White Sox are out of the playoffs again, I hope there is some serious evaluation done by the franchise. And I don't just mean why this team failed in 2011. Since the early Seventies, this team has followed the pattern of building up to having one or two great years followed by a slide back to being an also-ran. Players have changed, owners have changed, ballparks have changed. The results have remained the same.

After 2005, I didn't hope for a dynasty, but I hoped the White Sox would become an elite American League team. I also hoped for that after 1983, 1993, and 2000. It didn't happen.

I don't want change just for change sake. I would like see change that produces long-term results. For a change. I completely agree with this but have lost hope that Jerry and his management team will do the right thing.

Tragg
07-09-2011, 10:21 AM
You are not going to get an MLB player for Dayan, maybe a Jordan Danks type minor leaguer, and a low A throw in.

Well, you really don't like Viciedo then. A young guy who can hit, even with no other skills, is worth more than a guy who's ceiling is the last spot on a ML roster.
Well, we'll find out eventually I guess.

Rocky Soprano
07-09-2011, 10:29 AM
Hopefully at least Ozzie.

LongLiveFisk
07-09-2011, 10:45 AM
:boston

"I predict Ozzie Guillen will be fired at the All-Star break."

We shall see, Peter. We shall see.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2011, 10:51 AM
Actually didn't Gammons say that Ozzie would be with the Marlins next season? (I don't think he predicted a specific time he'd be fired and who knows Ozzie might quit. (although I doubt it, he wants that money...)

Lip

Brian26
07-09-2011, 11:07 AM
I wish it would be Hawk. A game might be bearable to watch again. Yeah, we know. The Twins are fundamentally sound. They make things happen. They own us. They're also an even ****tier team than us this year. This era of Twins baseball hasn't produced one playoff series win. The love fest for the Twins really pisses me off.

Did you watch any of the game last night? It is very apparent that someone had a talk with Hawk and Stone and told them to knock it off. I didn't hear any Minnesota ass-kissing on the broadcast last night.

Brian26
07-09-2011, 11:09 AM
You are not going to get an MLB player for Dayan, maybe a Jordan Danks type minor leaguer, and a low A throw in.

Then why do you think they would consider trading him? Seems like his upside offensively as a DH might be worth keeping him around.

Brian26
07-09-2011, 11:12 AM
For all of the hype about him being a gambler, he really is more like a one of those guys from Pawn Wars, trying to make money off of cast offs, or finding treasure in the attic.

That contradicts completely what the Sox did with the Rios, Peavy and Dunn moves, in addition to the PK and AJ resignings. Those were all gambler moves, taking on huge contracts that, at least in the case of Peavy (coming off an injury, actually on the DL at the time) and Rios (having a bad season in Toronto), were not guaranteed to work out. Kenny's definitely taken some chances on veterans by throwing money at them, so he can't be blamed for being cheap by going after castoffs.

LongLiveFisk
07-09-2011, 11:13 AM
Did you watch any of the game last night? It is very apparent that someone had a talk with Hawk and Stone and told them to knock it off. I didn't hear any Minnesota ass-kissing on the broadcast last night.

It's about time.

voodoochile
07-09-2011, 11:14 AM
Then why do you think they would consider trading him? Seems like his upside offensively as a DH might be worth keeping him around.

Exactly why I think they might consider trading PK but not until closer to the deadline. Then they move Dunn to first and bring up Viciedo to DH.

I won't be shocked if they trade Danks and his brother either once he comes off the DL. I don't expect Danks to stick around once he hits UFA.

Brian26
07-09-2011, 11:17 AM
However, once the year is over and the White Sox are out of the playoffs again, I hope there is some serious evaluation done by the franchise. And I don't just mean why this team failed in 2011. Since the early Seventies, this team has followed the pattern of building up to having one or two great years followed by a slide back to being an also-ran. Players have changed, owners have changed, ballparks have changed. The results have remained the same.

After 2005, I didn't hope for a dynasty, but I hoped the White Sox would become an elite American League team. I also hoped for that after 1983, 1993, and 2000. It didn't happen.

I don't want change just for change sake. I would like see change that produces long-term results. For a change.

That's every team, though, except for Boston and the Yankees and maybe the 90's Braves. Teams win the World Series and then fall back to obscurity a few years later and try to rebuild. Look at Florida, they're trying to do it for the third time. Arizona, LAA, Colorado (pennant). Winning in baseball year-in/year-out is never guaranteed.

Brian26
07-09-2011, 11:20 AM
Exactly why I think they might consider trading PK but not until closer to the deadline. Then they move Dunn to first and bring up Viciedo to DH.

I won't be shocked if they trade Danks and his brother either once he comes off the DL. I don't expect Danks to stick around once he hits UFA.

I agree, the Danks brothers are gone.

I have a feeling that Konerko stays just because of the backlash it would cause on a level that we've never seen. I can't imagine the whining we would see from the sensitive Sox fanbase if that happened.

MarySwiss
07-09-2011, 11:22 AM
It's about time.
That's for sure, Fisk! I didn't watch the game last night, and a big part of the reason was that I got so sick of listening to the kissing-up the night before. I was this close to throwing something at the TV and what made me even crazier was that the only option was to switch to the Twins' feed and put up with Blyleven!

Daver
07-09-2011, 11:23 AM
Exactly why I think they might consider trading PK but not until closer to the deadline. Then they move Dunn to first and bring up Viciedo to DH.


The backlash from the White Flag trade would be puny compared to the backlash that will come if Konerko is traded.

eastchicagosoxfan
07-09-2011, 11:25 AM
I think Dayan Viciedo will be moved.

Me too.

voodoochile
07-09-2011, 12:26 PM
The backlash from the White Flag trade would be puny compared to the backlash that will come if Konerko is traded.

Well I agree, but if they gonna rebuild you give PK the chance to move on and with the DBacks in a pennant race it would be the nice thing to do for Paulie. Plus the Dbacks might give up some stuff because they appear to desperately need an upgrade at first.

Noneck
07-09-2011, 12:32 PM
The backlash from the White Flag trade would be puny compared to the backlash that will come if Konerko is traded.

I think that would depend on how it is done. If the Sox go into a total rebuild and the Sox and Paul agree that he moves on and he states that, I would hope the fans wont have a beef.

kravdog
07-09-2011, 12:46 PM
No way Dayan gets traded. I think it's pretty clear the only reason he isn't here right now is because of Guillen's desire to keep putting Pierre out there.

Sox are 2.5 years into that 4yr/10 mil contract with Dayan....they are not going to just let him go for a pitching prospect, especially with an opening in the of next spring at the latest.

mmmmmbeeer
07-09-2011, 12:50 PM
You are not going to get an MLB player for Dayan, maybe a Jordan Danks type minor leaguer, and a low A throw in.


Surely you meant to use teal.

Viciedo is a 22 yr old kid tearing up AAA, a cannon for an arm, and had some success in short MLB time last season. And you think we'd get a AAAA player and a low A-baller in return?

I, for one, will be absolutely furious if Dayan is traded. TCQ should be the one dealt...he's about to get expensive but we could still get a decent return.

DickAllen72
07-09-2011, 01:56 PM
:boston

"I predict Ozzie Guillen will be fired at the All-Star break."

We shall see, Peter. We shall see.

If this turns out to be true, I'll start buying tickets and going to games again.

balke
07-09-2011, 02:10 PM
Exactly why I think they might consider trading PK but not until closer to the deadline. Then they move Dunn to first and bring up Viciedo to DH.

I won't be shocked if they trade Danks and his brother either once he comes off the DL. I don't expect Danks to stick around once he hits UFA.

If we get stuck with Adam Dunn at 1B - I'm done. No games no TV no souvenirs. Dunn as your main draw instantly puts your team in the category of putrid. And i'm okay with putrid... but not embarassing putrid. Gotta at least play defense if they are going to be bad.

TomBradley72
07-09-2011, 02:27 PM
PLEASE let Pierre go at the ASB- for a team going nowhere- there is zero value in staying with him for the final 2.5 months of his MLB career.

Call up Viciedo- and see what happens with the Quentin/Rios/Viciedo outfield. Too bad we're locked into 3.5 more years of the Dunn mistake- he would be a great/cheap DH.

Daver
07-09-2011, 02:48 PM
Well I agree, but if they gonna rebuild you give PK the chance to move on and with the DBacks in a pennant race it would be the nice thing to do for Paulie. Plus the Dbacks might give up some stuff because they appear to desperately need an upgrade at first.

They can't rebuild right now, they have nothing to rebuild with, they would have to trade a hell of a lot more than PK to bring back enough to rebuild with. With the white flag trade they had home grown talent to rebuild with, that is no where near the case now.

KMcMahon817
07-09-2011, 02:58 PM
PLEASE let Pierre go at the ASB- for a team going nowhere- there is zero value in staying with him for the final 2.5 months of his MLB career.

Call up Viciedo- and see what happens with the Quentin/Rios/Viciedo outfield. Too bad we're locked into 3.5 more years of the Dunn mistake- he would be a great/cheap DH.

Pierre is still getting ripped on around here? Jeez, what does the guy have to do? He was flat out brutal for a couple months, no doubt. But he has been quite good for the better part of the past month. And, he looks like he's the only one who really cares out there.

I would be fine with Pierre seeing less time in order to get Viciedo in the lineup. But, they're not going to just flat out "let him go". He actually probably has a little value right now...he's been pretty good.

TomBradley72
07-09-2011, 03:16 PM
Pierre is still getting ripped on around here? Jeez, what does the guy have to do? He was flat out brutal for a couple months, no doubt. But he has been quite good for the better part of the past month. And, he looks like he's the only one who really cares out there.

I would be fine with Pierre seeing less time in order to get Viciedo in the lineup. But, they're not going to just flat out "let him go". He actually probably has a little value right now...he's been pretty good.

My point is not to "rip" on Pierre- as my post stated- "for a team going nowhere..."- Pierre's career is over when this contract is over- there's no value for a 34 yo slap hitter, who can only play LF and is no longer a stolen base threat. Sooooo- you might as well look to the future and see what you have with Viciedo.

Based on the make up of the roster- he's the one that needs to go if you are going to call up Viciedo. If some how you can get something for him in a trade- which I doubt- go for it.

KMcMahon817
07-09-2011, 03:18 PM
My point is not to "rip" on Pierre- as my post stated- "for a team going nowhere..."- Pierre's career is over when this contract is over- there's no value for a 34 yo slap hitter, who can only play LF and is no longer a stolen base threat.

Wanna friendly wager on that?

Daver
07-09-2011, 03:27 PM
My point is not to "rip" on Pierre- as my post stated- "for a team going nowhere..."- Pierre's career is over when this contract is over- there's no value for a 34 yo slap hitter, who can only play LF and is no longer a stolen base threat. Sooooo- you might as well look to the future and see what you have with Viciedo.

Based on the make up of the roster- he's the one that needs to go if you are going to call up Viciedo. If some how you can get something for him in a trade- which I doubt- go for it.


Package him with Viciedo for a right fielder.

voodoochile
07-09-2011, 03:29 PM
They can't rebuild right now, they have nothing to rebuild with, they would have to trade a hell of a lot more than PK to bring back enough to rebuild with. With the white flag trade they had home grown talent to rebuild with, that is no where near the case now.

Yeah I know, but if they are really going to start trading off pieces than they need to go at it whole hog because doing it partially will just lead to a marginally worse team next year and there aren't many pieces that will bring much back.

Buehrle, Danks, Quentin and PK all have at least some value especially to teams in the hunt this year.

Edit: My guess is that if they rebuild it's around Alexei, Beckham Morel and possibly Quentin (who as streaky as he is still puts up solid all around numbers). But, only time will tell how deep they are willing to go in terms of cuts/trades.

TomBradley72
07-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Wanna friendly wager on that?

I'm all in. :cool:

TomBradley72
07-09-2011, 05:10 PM
Edit: My guess is that if they rebuild it's around Alexei, Beckham Morel and possibly Quentin (who as streaky as he is still puts up solid all around numbers). But, only time will tell how deep they are willing to go in terms of cuts/trades.

You have to add Dunn, Rios, Peavy, AJ and Teahen to that list- at least through 2012- no one will want those contracts.

Soxfest
07-09-2011, 05:17 PM
OG only one gone new manager will be ordered to keep Walker and most of the staff.:angry:

KMcMahon817
07-09-2011, 05:52 PM
I'm all in. :cool:

Hah. I was as big a Pierre critic as anyone earlier in the year. But the guy has been pretty darn good lately. And I am fairly confident he will be able to find a job next year. It likely won't be as a starter, but someone will pick him up.

But that is beyond the point. It's time for Viciedo to see some time in the outfield.

DickAllen72
07-09-2011, 05:58 PM
According to another Sox forum, apparently Cowley is twittering that KW approached two former managers to guage their interest in taking over managing the Sox and one of them called up Ozzie and told him about it. Consider the source.

DSpivack
07-09-2011, 06:05 PM
According to another Sox forum, apparently Cowley is twittering that KW approached two former managers to guage their interest in taking over managing the Sox and one of them called up Ozzie and told him about it. Consider the source.

Cowley's source is a scout in Pittsburgh (I assume that means from the Cubs, not the Pirates).

https://twitter.com/#!/cst_Cowley/status/89814552274935808

balke
07-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Yeah I know, but if they are really going to start trading off pieces than they need to go at it whole hog because doing it partially will just lead to a marginally worse team next year and there aren't many pieces that will bring much back.

Buehrle, Danks, Quentin and PK all have at least some value especially to teams in the hunt this year.

Edit: My guess is that if they rebuild it's around Alexei, Beckham Morel and possibly Quentin (who as streaky as he is still puts up solid all around numbers). But, only time will tell how deep they are willing to go in terms of cuts/trades.

I'm hoping morel is packaged and they get an upgrade at 3B. Preferably young with good D and decent bat. Morel just doesn't have the power needed for a 3Bman. He's a tough guy to hate - but just look at the numbers. I'm far from an expert though. Maybe he'll develop power.

Brian26
07-09-2011, 07:10 PM
According to another Sox forum, apparently Cowley is twittering that KW approached two former managers to guage their interest in taking over managing the Sox and one of them called up Ozzie and told him about it. Consider the source.

Pretty much a jackass move by the former manager. What, Kenny's not allowed to do his job? Stuff like this happens everyday in sports and the real world.

Rocky Soprano
07-09-2011, 09:39 PM
According to another Sox forum, apparently Cowley is twittering that KW approached two former managers to guage their interest in taking over managing the Sox and one of them called up Ozzie and told him about it. Consider the source.

Cowley is friends with the Guillen's sons and I can totally see them feeding him some inside info.

soxfanreggie
07-09-2011, 09:45 PM
Pretty much a jackass move by the former manager. What, Kenny's not allowed to do his job? Stuff like this happens everyday in sports and the real world.

Every athletic director has to do this to prepare if their coach leaves/dies/gets fired. The same goes for every owner and every GM. If this is true, it probably just burned a big bridge between Kenny and that former manager.

Tragg
07-09-2011, 10:18 PM
.

I would be fine with Pierre seeing less time in order to get Viciedo in the lineup. But, they're not going to just flat out "let him go". He actually probably has a little value right now...he's been pretty good.
Players with obp of .325, no power and unable to steal bases have virtually no value. Most teams can get that kind of production from their B prospects.
WE can't do better in all probability at this point (but I'm not totally convinced we can't); but that's because of our farm system and the talent evaluation skills of the dugout boss.
And I realize that we have players in this lineup who aren't even producing at PIerre's low levels.

I agree, the Danks brothers are gone.

I have a feeling that Konerko stays just because of the backlash it would cause on a level that we've never seen. I can't imagine the whining we would see from the sensitive Sox fanbase if that happened.

Why his brother of all of our non-descript minor leaguers. And if he can actually play, for goodness sakes lets play him.
As for Konerko, you've got to have power out of 1B, unless you have 7 or so other plus hitters in the lineup.

Lip Man 1
07-09-2011, 10:23 PM
I was told that the name of the Pirates scout is Jax (?) Robertson or Robinson (sorry I never heard of the guy.)

Have no idea who he is or how much he'd know.

I have a feeling though if this is true and someone called Ozzie, if Kenny finds out who it is, he won't be hiring him regardless.

Also have been told Kenny is telling confidants that he's tired of seeing the same **** on the field day after day and is threatening massive player changes.

Lip

gosox41
07-09-2011, 10:39 PM
Bob:

Normally, logically, you would assume some changes would be made but according to what I was told this afternoon by a member of the front office I wouldn't hold my breath on that.

I was told (direct quote) "the prevailing attitude is we can still win this division..."

There you go.

Lip


Lip,

I believe what you were told. I also believe the Sox are the most talented team in the division and could win it.

What I don't believe is this team has the 'testicular fortitute' (to paraphrase a political felon--though that is an oxymoron to an extent) to rebound. They consistently prove they can't hit in the clutch let alone be shut down by washed up nothing pitchers.

I would only hope KW isn't this stupid.

I am falling off the KW bandwagon that I jumped on in 2005. You may remember I was a huge basher of KW. But lately his movs haven't been working out as well.


Bob

gosox41
07-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Did you watch any of the game last night? It is very apparent that someone had a talk with Hawk and Stone and told them to knock it off. I didn't hear any Minnesota ass-kissing on the broadcast last night.

How can they not talk up the greatest team ever?

Bob

Dirty30
07-09-2011, 10:45 PM
Robertson is his name, I think

http://mlb.mlb.com/pit/team/exec_bios/robertson_jax.jsp

gosox41
07-09-2011, 10:49 PM
I was told that the name of the Pirates scout is Jax (?) Robertson or Robinson (sorry I never heard of the guy.)

Have no idea who he is or how much he'd know.

I have a feeling though if this is true and someone called Ozzie, if Kenny finds out who it is, he won't be hiring him regarless.

Also have been told Kenny is telling confidants that he's tired of seeing the same **** on the field day after day and is threatening massive player changes.

Lip


I didn't think that KW is that stupid.

BTW, this contradicts your earlier post in this thread.

I guess either way, you're right:D::D::D:


Bob

DSpivack
07-09-2011, 11:03 PM
How can they not talk up the greatest team ever?

Bob

Green?

DirtySox
07-09-2011, 11:05 PM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg
Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/#%21/Buster_ESPN) Buster Olney
Lots of rumors swirling about managerial change with the White Sox, but high-ranking source says change with Ozzie not being considered.
1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/Buster_ESPN/status/89879078513016832) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)

VMSNS
07-09-2011, 11:20 PM
I cannot wait for the day when Ozzie and Kenny are both fired. This **** is beyond ridiculous.

SBSoxFan
07-09-2011, 11:31 PM
Lots of rumors swirling about managerial change with the White Sox, but high-ranking source says change with Ozzie not being considered.


I knew Joe McEwing's days were numbered.

If it's not Ozzie, doesn't that pretty much leave Kenny? What other positions in the organization have "manager" in its title?

DickAllen72
07-09-2011, 11:35 PM
I was told that the name of the Pirates scout is Jax (?) Robertson or Robinson (sorry I never heard of the guy.)
So the story is true then?
Also have been told Kenny is telling confidants that he's tired of seeing the same **** on the field day after day and is threatening massive player changes.

Lip
Threatening massive player changes in the next few weeks or for next season?

Thanks, Lip!

Nellie_Fox
07-09-2011, 11:57 PM
Since the early Seventies, this team has followed the pattern of building up to having one or two great years followed by a slide back to being an also-ran. Players have changed, owners have changed, ballparks have changed. The results have remained the same.
Don't forget uniforms. Uniforms have changed several times.

The only thing left is the water. It must be the water.

BainesHOF
07-10-2011, 02:01 AM
I think Dayan Viciedo will be moved.

Yes, moved to Chicago.

BainesHOF
07-10-2011, 02:10 AM
The Sox can win this division because it's bad. They won't because of their manager.

samurai_sox
07-10-2011, 03:04 AM
I cannot wait for the day when Ozzie and Kenny are both fired. This **** is beyond ridiculous.

You and me both.

RockJock07
07-10-2011, 06:36 AM
I'm all for massive player changes but I really just don't see who goes and who stays.

The Twins are god awful this year, these last few games have been almost worse then the metrodome losses over the years. At least then the Twins were consistantly good, now they lack any sort of punch offensively and their pitching staff is very average and are still beating the sox.

gosox41
07-10-2011, 07:58 AM
I was told that the name of the Pirates scout is Jax (?) Robertson or Robinson (sorry I never heard of the guy.)

Have no idea who he is or how much he'd know.

I have a feeling though if this is true and someone called Ozzie, if Kenny finds out who it is, he won't be hiring him regarless.

Also have been told Kenny is telling confidants that he's tired of seeing the same **** on the field day after day and is threatening massive player changes.

Lip

I hope KW is smart enought to not let one win change his view on massive changes.

The Sox have scored 11 runs in the 3 games played so far. This is still less then 4 runs per game. They did the same in pretty much all their series' played over the last month.

It really is rather a pathetic offensive showing.

Even if the Sox win today, I'd still look to make changes.


Bob

TomBradley72
07-10-2011, 08:08 AM
How is exactly would KW execute these "massive changes"? He has too many untradeable contracts: Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen- as long as they are on the roster and with very little in the farm system- hard to see how any big change is possible unless you eat millions of dollars to dump the huge, long term contracts KW has added to the payroll since mid-2009.

dickallen15
07-10-2011, 08:19 AM
How is exactly would KW execute these "massive changes"? He has too many untradeable contracts: Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen- as long as they are on the roster and with very little in the farm system- hard to see how any big change is possible unless you eat millions of dollars to dump the huge, long term contracts KW has added to the payroll since mid-2009.

Exactly. We've also heard these threats before and nothing was done.

Over By There
07-10-2011, 08:38 AM
There's one big reason I don't think anything will be done: memories of the White Flag trade. As we stand today, it's July 10 and the Sox are 4.5 back. The White Flag trade was made July 31 and the Sox were 3.5 back. Although most of the die-hards here at WSI understand the need for and value of rebuilding, I can imagine JR feeling like he's in a no-win situation. Do nothing and the die-hards will cry that he is too loyal. Blow it up and trade popular players, and you may have a more broad-based uprising. As much as I hate it, the path of least resistance (given that we have so many putrid contracts right now) is probably to just sit back and pray these guys play to their potential... exactly what they are seemingly doing.

The only thing that changes this, I think, is if the Sox start a prolonged, painful losing streak where they fall way off the pace before the trade deadline. If they hang around playing roughly .500 ball, I think we'll be watching this group through the end of the year.

TomBradley72
07-10-2011, 09:23 AM
There's one big reason I don't think anything will be done: memories of the White Flag trade. As we stand today, it's July 10 and the Sox are 4.5 back. The White Flag trade was made July 31 and the Sox were 3.5 back. Although most of the die-hards here at WSI understand the need for and value of rebuilding, I can imagine JR feeling like he's in a no-win situation. Do nothing and the die-hards will cry that he is too loyal. Blow it up and trade popular players, and you may have a more broad-based uprising. As much as I hate it, the path of least resistance (given that we have so many putrid contracts right now) is probably to just sit back and pray these guys play to their potential... exactly what they are seemingly doing.

The only thing that changes this, I think, is if the Sox start a prolonged, painful losing streak where they fall way off the pace before the trade deadline. If they hang around playing roughly .500 ball, I think we'll be watching this group through the end of the year.

A "white flag" trade isn't even an option- you could dump all the "tradeable" talent- Konerko, Buehrle, Ramirez- but you're still stuck with $56M worth of crap (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen)- so what's the point?

SCCWS
07-10-2011, 09:40 AM
A "white flag" trade isn't even an option- you could dump all the "tradeable" talent- Konerko, Buehrle, Ramirez- but you're still stuck with $56M worth of crap (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen)- so what's the point?


Not necessarily true. Sometimes you can trade crap for crap. There are other teams looking to unload guys as well. Not that the trade will improve your team, but sometimes change will jumpstart a player. For example, the Red Sox are looking to dump JD Drew. Someone will take him and offer crap or a couple of low prospects. Boston might go for a Rios-Drew deal just to get rid of Drew. Now Drew is awful but it would be a new awful for the White Sox.

Gavin
07-10-2011, 09:41 AM
ozzie, cora and walker

yes

Soxfest
07-10-2011, 09:46 AM
http://a2.twimg.com/profile_images/518275190/olney_buster_m_normal.jpg
Buster_ESPN (http://twitter.com/#%21/Buster_ESPN) Buster Olney
Lots of rumors swirling about managerial change with the White Sox, but high-ranking source says change with Ozzie not being considered.
1 hour ago (http://twitter.com/#%21/Buster_ESPN/status/89879078513016832) Favorite (http://twitter.com/#) Retweet (http://twitter.com/#) Reply (http://twitter.com/#)


Somebody has to go at the All Star break :angry:

Over By There
07-10-2011, 10:15 AM
A "white flag" trade isn't even an option- you could dump all the "tradeable" talent- Konerko, Buehrle, Ramirez- but you're still stuck with $56M worth of crap (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen)- so what's the point?

I don't see your argument with my post. If you trade Konerko, Buehrle and TCM in July when you're a small handful of games out, how is that not going to be perceived as waving the white flag?

slavko
07-10-2011, 10:23 AM
A "white flag" trade isn't even an option- you could dump all the "tradeable" talent- Konerko, Buehrle, Ramirez- but you're still stuck with $56M worth of crap (Dunn, Peavy, Rios, AJ, Teahen)- so what's the point?


And yet...you see this very same "logic" on WSI all the time as a way of management cutting losses. It would only increase the losses since the big contracts for non-producers would still be here and the team would be worse. The only way out of this is for the "crap" to improve. I know, that's counter-logical, too, and that means there is no solution that improves the team.

Hate to keep trying to get the "fat" dog to hunt, but look at Thome now compared to him as a Sox. He's in shape! That's why he has lasted this long, even if he 4K'ed yesterday. The same thing is probably wrong with Dunn. The problem might not be too heavy a bat, but too heavy arms slowing his reaction time.

voodoochile
07-10-2011, 11:14 AM
Somebody has to go at the All Star break :angry:

Nah... They have two choices...

1) Try to dump almost everything and rebuild totally.

2) Ride it out.

I think they'll go for 2 because they can't dump some of the worst and most expensive contracts and because they aren't that far back.

I wouldn't be shocked to see a coaching change over the off season if the Sox fail to make a run in the second half.

Tragg
07-10-2011, 11:32 AM
They can't rebuild right now, they have nothing to rebuild with, they would have to trade a hell of a lot more than PK to bring back enough to rebuild with. With the white flag trade they had home grown talent to rebuild with, that is no where near the case now.

Actually, I disagree, because even if we strip away our near FAs like Jackson, Danks, Quentin and even MB, we will still have the bullpen and a core for a starting rotation (Peavy, Floyd, Sale, Humber). Trading the players above should bring a couple of good outfielders and a pitcher (and we could sign a "middlin" outfielder too). The problem is a couple of bad contracts - Rios' is a real albatross.

PalehosePlanet
07-10-2011, 11:38 AM
First things first: You fire Ozzie and see if the new manager lights a spark under the team over the next two weeks. If the team responds and plays well you stick with the team, pretty much as constituted right now, the rest of the year.

Then if we flop in August or September and don't make the playoffs (strong likelihood) the team's needs/problems would be addressed in the off-season.

Now, we're obviously stuck w/Rios and Dunn, they're untradable at this point. We can only assume/hope that that this is just a career bad year for both of them and they'll rebound next season. Dunn will have to start a new off-season regimen to be ready next year, much like Paulie realized he had to do after a bad and injury plagued 2008. Hopefully Alex with a new hitting coach will also return to norm.

This leaves us with 3B, 2B, C and one OF spot to improve the team. The pitching will be fine I believe even w/ Buehrle and Jackson gone. We have Sale and possibly Santiago that could step into the rotation while Addison Reed can take Sale's spot in the bullpen. Assuming Danks is not traded, we'd have a rotation of Danks, Peavy, Floyd, Humber and Sale/Santiago for next year, while we could also take a shot on rebound/reclamation project type as insurance.

Yes, this year has been brutal, but not for lack of talent. An underachieving team is more likely to rebound the following year, especially with a new manager/coaching staff and a new approach from the start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed off as anyone how this year has gone so far, but the overall organizational near-term picture for this team is not 1/100 as bleak as some of you think.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 11:46 AM
Bob:

I was given the first comment before the start of the Twins series. Perhaps the situation is so volitile that Kenny's opinion literally changes on a daily basis?

The first comment was not made to me by Kenny (obviously :D:) but I would think when all is said and done, it's going to be JR's call.

My sense is many in the organization are for keeping the status quo because of a lot of reasons already mentioned by fans, what I don't know is if JR would be willing to override everybody (as is his right) and say "make changes" or can Kenny do this unilaterally without JR's input. Kenny walks his own path, it wouldn't be surprising if a lot of folks in the organization said, "stay the course..." but Kenny's does something 180 degrees different.

As far as "massive changes" I was told right now...not wait until the season is over because again many in the organization still think they can win this.

Lip

Noneck
07-10-2011, 11:47 AM
First things first: You fire Ozzie and see if the new manager lights a spark under the team over the next two weeks. If the team responds and plays well you stick with the team, pretty much as constituted right now, the rest of the year.

Then if we flop in August or September and don't make the playoffs (strong likelihood) the team's needs/problems would be addressed in the off-season.

Now, we're obviously stuck w/Rios and Dunn, they're untradable at this point. We can only assume/hope that that this is just a career bad year for both of them and they'll rebound next season. Dunn will have to start a new off-season regimen to be ready next year, much like Paulie realized he had to do after a bad and injury plagued 2008. Hopefully Alex with a new hitting coach will also return to norm.

This leaves us with 3B, 2B, C and one OF spot to improve the team. The pitching will be fine I believe even w/ Buehrle and Jackson gone. We have Sale and possibly Santiago that could step into the rotation while Addison Reed can take Sale's spot in the bullpen. Assuming Danks is not traded, we'd have a rotation of Danks, Peavy, Floyd, Humber and Sale/Santiago fior next year, while we could also take a shot on rebound/reclamation project type as insurance.

Yes, this year has been brutal, but not for lack of talent. An underachieving team is more likely to rebound the following year, especially with a new manager/coaching staff and a new approach from the start.

Don't get me wrong, I'm as pissed off as anyone how this year has gone so far, but the overall organizational near-term picture for this team is not 1/100 as bleak as some of you think.

What you say is basically correct but what you neglect to include is advance ticket sales and a high payroll. If they do as you suggest, people will be in the " fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" mode. There is no easy solution to this mess.

Lip Man 1
07-10-2011, 11:48 AM
Palehose:

Well the Sox seem to have gotten themselves into a pattern if you will already:

2006 - Winning seasons 90 wins
2007 - Losing season
2008 - Winning season 89 wins
2009 - Losing season
2010 - Winning season 88 wins
2011 - ???
2012 - ???

If the pattern were to hold they'd have a losing season this year then rebound next year for a winning one with 87 wins.

Lip

Tragg
07-10-2011, 11:51 AM
This leaves us with 3B, 2B, C and one OF spot to improve the team..

I wouldn't even mess with that, except for possibly 3B. Our infield plays good D and supports the pitching. Get Beckham a new hitting coach; teach Morel some patience (I know a lot of that is instinctive). I'd concentrate on getting 2 corner outfielders - they are easier to find (I'm assuming we trade Q).
We have a pitching core which, with solid D, should bring us 75 wins, even with lackluster O. Improve the outfield production, and we could be a competitor. We'll also have a good bit of salary relief.

Rocky Soprano
07-10-2011, 01:48 PM
Palehose:

Well the Sox seem to have gotten themselves into a pattern if you will already:

2006 - Winning seasons 90 wins
2007 - Losing season
2008 - Winning season 89 wins
2009 - Losing season
2010 - Winning season 88 wins
2011 - ???
2012 - ???

If the pattern were to hold they'd have a losing season this year then rebound next year for a winning one with 87 wins.

Lip

To me, you have to measure success by AT LEAST winning the division.

soxfanreggie
07-10-2011, 02:33 PM
If we keep putting up crap performances like we have been all year against the Central, especially with the amount of divisional road games we have, we will lose a tOn more at the turnstiles. I can't see how the entire coaching staff returns after the break. They might be waiting to make a change when the rest of the country is caught up in the All-Star game. whether or not that change is OG, probably not...but I think failing to win the division means Kenny or OG is gone.

Key question, who does JR blame?

russ99
07-10-2011, 02:37 PM
What would you gain by tossing away Ozzie now, when you could at least attempt fix the major problem on this team by firing the hitting coach?

Again, the two teams above us in the standings have fired a coach this year, one hitting and one pitching. Why are the Sox immune?

doublem23
07-10-2011, 02:39 PM
What would you gain by tossing away Ozzie now, when you could at least attempt fix the major problem on this team by firing the hitting coach?

Again, the two teams above us in the standings have fired a coach this year, one hitting and one pitching. Why are the Sox immune?

Because Walk is one of Ozzie's guys, you think he's not going to throw a hissy fit if KW and JR try to undermine his "system?"

Both Ozzie and Walker needed to go yesterday. Hopefully they're gone by Friday.

russ99
07-10-2011, 02:40 PM
Because Walk is one of Ozzie's guys, you think he's not going to throw a hissy fit if KW and JR try to undermine his "system?"

Both Ozzie and Walker needed to go yesterday. Hopefully they're gone by Friday.

Walker was hired before Ozzie, and Ozzie openly campaigned to have him fired last year. Despite the recent solidarity in the press, I very much doubt Walker is "Ozzie's guy". He's more Jerry's guy.

doublem23
07-10-2011, 02:44 PM
Walker was hired before Ozzie, and Ozzie openly campaigned to have him fired last year. Despite the recent solidarity in the press, I very much doubt Walker is "Ozzie's guy". He's more Jerry's guy.

Ozzie goes out of his way to defend Walker every time someone shoves a microphone in his face. You're crack at Reinsdorf is amusing, considering the only reason your boy Ozzie still has a job at this point is likely because he's in Reinsdorf's special club, too. I can't imagine any other owner putting up with such a volatile of childish, insubordinate antics and absolute on-field mediocrity.

Nelfox02
07-10-2011, 02:47 PM
What would you gain by tossing away Ozzie now, when you could at least attempt fix the major problem on this team by firing the hitting coach?

Again, the two teams above us in the standings have fired a coach this year, one hitting and one pitching. Why are the Sox immune?


What do you gain by keeping Ozzie?

russ99
07-10-2011, 03:10 PM
What do you gain by keeping Ozzie?

Because we're not hitting, so fire the hitting coach. Easy fix.

Why not give Ozzie a chance the rest of the year with a different coach / hitting philosophy?

I've said before, if we don't make the playoffs this year, then both Ozzie and KW need to be fired. But they both deserve the shot to finish out the year, and see where things go.

It's not like the roster is going to change... A new manager would have the same problems Ozzie is having, especially if Walker is still here, like I'd suspect.

WhiteSox5187
07-10-2011, 03:13 PM
Because we're not hitting, so fire the hitting coach. Easy fix.

Why not give Ozzie a chance the rest of the year with a different coach / hitting philosophy?

I've said before, if we don't make the playoffs this year, then both Ozzie and KW need to be fired. But they both deserve the shot to finish out the year, and see where things go.

It's not like the roster is going to change... A new manager would have the same problems Ozzie is having, especially if Walker is still here, like I'd suspect.

I like Ozzie, I think he might be a good manager, but it is clear he has lost this team. Firing Ozzie gives the Sox a chance to bring in a new style, philosophy and possibly a spark. Of course, it's a total desperation move on the part of the White Sox but that is where we are right now. Barring a miraculous turn around Kenny HAS to go at the end of the year too. Firing Ozzie isn't enough, Kenny is as responsible for the disaster that this season has been as Ozzie is.

Falstaff
07-10-2011, 03:16 PM
Who will be gone? The fans in the stands.

soxfanreggie
07-10-2011, 03:41 PM
I like Ozzie, I think he might be a good manager, but it is clear he has lost this team. Firing Ozzie gives the Sox a chance to bring in a new style, philosophy and possibly a spark. Of course, it's a total desperation move on the part of the White Sox but that is where we are right now. Barring a miraculous turn around Kenny HAS to go at the end of the year too. Firing Ozzie isn't enough, Kenny is as responsible for the disaster that this season has been as Ozzie is.

You would fire him and go with an interim or the guy out there you want to lead the team in the future. If that guy isn't available, you go with an interim.

russ99
07-10-2011, 03:52 PM
The frustrating thing for me is that the hitters have the same approach, the same bad pitch recognition and poor swings now as they did on opening day.

If Walker is working so hard, why has nothing changed? If anything, Walker has lost the hitters.

He should go before anyone else, and then maybe our hitters can progress, score more runs and we'll win more games.

dickallen15
07-10-2011, 03:56 PM
The frustrating thing for me is that the hitters have the same approach, the same bad pitch recognition and poor swings now as they did on opening day.

If Walker is working so hard, why has nothing changed? If anything, Walker has lost the hitters.

He should go before anyone else, and then maybe our hitters can progress.
Rios is very different from the beginning of the year. His hands are higher but its not working. Pierre and Beckham have hit much better as of late. Dunn has been horrid and is seeing a shrink. He didn't want to be a DH and when the highest bid came in he changed his mind. It isn't working. Konerko, Ramirez Quentin, are having decent years. Morel is a rookie, rookies struggle. Teahen hasn't hit much but a few homers. AJ has hit about .350 the last month.

soltrain21
07-10-2011, 04:08 PM
The frustrating thing for me is that the hitters have the same approach, the same bad pitch recognition and poor swings now as they did on opening day.

If Walker is working so hard, why has nothing changed? If anything, Walker has lost the hitters.

He should go before anyone else, and then maybe our hitters can progress, score more runs and we'll win more games.

It's been said many times by KW that Ozzie has control over his coaching staff. So why hasn't Ozzie fired Walker?

geofitz
07-10-2011, 08:21 PM
IMHO, not Ozzie. I believe he is under contract for next year. So, if that's correct, he will be allowed to go to the re-named Miami Marlins. Just pray it's not for Hanley Ramirez! Logan Morrison (who has mouthed off down here) would be a perfect LFer for the Sox.

rowand33
07-10-2011, 08:58 PM
I don't understand how the offense under-performs every season and Walker doesn't get fired. I know that ultimately the players are responsible for their production at the plate, but c'mon...

I will be very sad if we trade Dayan. I think we should call up Dayan, move Dunn to LF, Dayan to DH, Pierre to the pine. I know Dunn sucks in the field, but, from what I've read (haven't seen much of Dayan in the field), he's better than Dayan, and maybe fielding again would help him at the plate.

NLaloosh
07-10-2011, 09:05 PM
I think that management made a plan and are going to stick with it for the season and I think that is what they should do. A lot of fans have given up, and I can see why, but a ship of this size doesn't turn as quickly as some people seem to think it can.


I agree that change cannot come quickly, and I have resigned myself to the fact that nothing dramatic will happen this season and we will just have to live with the results.

However, once the year is over and the White Sox are out of the playoffs again, I hope there is some serious evaluation done by the franchise. And I don't just mean why this team failed in 2011. Since the early Seventies, this team has followed the pattern of building up to having one or two great years followed by a slide back to being an also-ran. Players have changed, owners have changed, ballparks have changed. The results have remained the same.

After 2005, I didn't hope for a dynasty, but I hoped the White Sox would become an elite American League team. I also hoped for that after 1983, 1993, and 2000. It didn't happen.

I don't want change just for change sake. I would like see change that produces long-term results. For a change.

So, you mean fire Kenny Williams, right?

NLaloosh
07-10-2011, 09:10 PM
I think that would depend on how it is done. If the Sox go into a total rebuild and the Sox and Paul agree that he moves on and he states that, I would hope the fans wont have a beef.

Who is going to orchestrate this "total rebuild" ? Kenny Williams? Yeah, right.

NLaloosh
07-10-2011, 09:13 PM
According to another Sox forum, apparently Cowley is twittering that KW approached two former managers to guage their interest in taking over managing the Sox and one of them called up Ozzie and told him about it. Consider the source.


Once again, KW does not understand "rebuild". Therefore, there will be no rebuilding process if KW is the general manager.

Even if he tried, he would suck at it. That is the total opposite of the way his nature is and the way he has always worked.

NLaloosh
07-10-2011, 09:16 PM
I cannot wait for the day when Ozzie and Kenny are both fired. This **** is beyond ridiculous.


Best post of the week !!!!!!!!!!!

Thank you !

soxfanreggie
07-10-2011, 11:06 PM
I don't understand how the offense under-performs every season and Walker doesn't get fired. I know that ultimately the players are responsible for their production at the plate, but c'mon...

I will be very sad if we trade Dayan. I think we should call up Dayan, move Dunn to LF, Dayan to DH, Pierre to the pine. I know Dunn sucks in the field, but, from what I've read (haven't seen much of Dayan in the field), he's better than Dayan, and maybe fielding again would help him at the plate.

With Pierre on the pine, what would your batting order be?

Nellie_Fox
07-11-2011, 12:05 AM
I like Ozzie, I think he might be a good manager, but it is clear he has lost this team.People keep saying this, and I don't even know what it means. I think people say this because it sounds "analytical."

What evidence for "losing the team" do you have? Players shouting at him in the dugout? Ripping him anonymously in the press (and don't think for a moment that there aren't writers who'd be happy to print an anonymous Ozzie slam if it was there)? Players asking to be traded? None of those things are happening. So what the hell does it mean?

central44
07-11-2011, 12:49 AM
People keep saying this, and I don't even know what it means. I think people say this because it sounds "analytical."

What evidence for "losing the team" do you have? Players shouting at him in the dugout? Ripping him anonymously in the press (and don't think for a moment that there aren't writers who'd be happy to print an anonymous Ozzie slam if it was there)? Players asking to be traded? None of those things are happening. So what the hell does it mean?

Well for me as a fan, it's starting to look like the players don't care anymore. They show up just so they can play the game and go home. Nobody is ever held accountable.

Anyone who follows basketball might remember how a talented Bulls team looked in 07/08 when they quit on Skiles. The team just stopped caring and quit trying. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's a LOT how this Sox team feels to me. That's not to say I think they're trying to get Ozzie fired like that Bulls squad was with Skiles. But they're not playing like a team that expects to compete every night--and most nights, they don't compete.

What's frustrating is that despite a miserable first half (considering the talent on this squad) the team is STILL in the race, thanks largely to an outstanding pitching staff. And the teams that they're chasing are not at all impressive. The season isn't over, but every lifeless showing makes it clearer and clearer that a change needs to be made before it's too late--and a new manager might make the most sense.

RockJock07
07-11-2011, 03:06 AM
Well for me as a fan, it's starting to look like the players don't care anymore. They show up just so they can play the game and go home. Nobody is ever held accountable.

Anyone who follows basketball might remember how a talented Bulls team looked in 07/08 when they quit on Skiles. The team just stopped caring and quit trying. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's a LOT how this Sox team feels to me. That's not to say I think they're trying to get Ozzie fired like that Bulls squad was with Skiles. But they're not playing like a team that expects to compete every night--and most nights, they don't compete.

What's frustrating is that despite a miserable first half (considering the talent on this squad) the team is STILL in the race, thanks largely to an outstanding pitching staff. And the teams that they're chasing are not at all impressive. The season isn't over, but every lifeless showing makes it clearer and clearer that a change needs to be made before it's too late--and a new manager might make the most sense.

I think this is a great point. I thought it was pretty shady on the Bulls part to get ride of SS on Christmas day/eve but sometimes a change of scenery is needed when you're dealing with an Ozzie type manager.

Think about Bobby Cox, Jerry Sloan, Phil Jackson, Bill Belichick, these are the type of managers and coaches that get the most out of their players without going off in the media and generally being spastic. Yes these guys had great players to work with but they all had down years too and still were able to come back and get more from a different group of players.

I've always liked Ozzie's honesty and I did enjoy the times he went off in the media but perhaps its time for a change.

Let me also say that Ozzie is not the only problem, the players have been awful this year, Danks, Floyd, Rios, Dunn, Pierre, Beckham and a host of others are not performing well at all.

If Ozzie makes it through the rest of this season I think he quits in the off-season so he can take the Marlins job. I think a younger team down there in Florida would be a great thing for Ozzie.

Gavin
07-11-2011, 09:15 AM
Once again, KW does not understand "rebuild". Therefore, there will be no rebuilding process if KW is the general manager.

Even if he tried, he would suck at it. That is the total opposite of the way his nature is and the way he has always worked.

Kenny sucks at his nature and the way he has always worked, so if you're saying something is the opposite of that, I say let's do it.

SI1020
07-11-2011, 10:09 AM
Additionally the game is passing KW by. The steroid era is over and a different style of baseball is in vogue now, and KW hasn't kept pace. As much as I've been down on Ozzie the last few years his style of play is closer to what's happening now, and except for 05 he hasn't had the kind of team suited to him. A change of scene in Miami would help Ozzie rebuild his reputation as a good manager.

Lip Man 1
07-11-2011, 11:10 AM
With Ozzie being under contract for next season he won't "quit" anything. He wants that money and has said to the media (and I don't think it was in a funny way) "they'll have to fire me..."

Lip

Carolina Kenny
07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
With Ozzie being under contract for next season he won't "quit" anything. He wants that money and has said to the medias (and I don't think it was in a funny way) "they'll have to fire me..."

Lip

Never quit. Wait to get fired and get as much as you can out of your ex-employer. A life-lesson from the Oz.

russ99
07-11-2011, 01:41 PM
Never quit. Wait to get fired and get as much as you can out of your ex-employer. A life-lesson from the Oz.

Please. The guy has repeatedly said that managing the Sox is his dream job. But don't let that stop you from turning it around to try and press the bullheaded notion that he's an idiot.

Domeshot17
07-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Please. The guy has repeatedly said that managing the Sox is his dream job. But don't let that stop you from turning it around to try and press the bullheaded notion that he's an idiot.

Who cares if he is an idiot, he just is no longer a good manager. He has a team completely loaded with talent playing so poorly. I don't grasp at all how you can defend him anymore. We are 6 years removed from 2005 and he hasn't done anything since.

kittle42
07-11-2011, 01:45 PM
Please. The guy has repeatedly said that managing the Sox is his dream job. But don't let that stop you from turning it around to try and press the bullheaded notion that he's an idiot.

Of course it's his dream job. Who wouldn't want a position with no accountability?

JB98
07-11-2011, 01:46 PM
Who cares if he is an idiot, he just is no longer a good manager. He has a team completely loaded with talent playing so poorly. I don't grasp at all how you can defend him anymore. We are 6 years removed from 2005 and he hasn't done anything since.

I've defended Oz in the past, but even I have given up the schtick now. There's no defense for the poor job he is doing this season. None whatsoever.

kittle42
07-11-2011, 02:03 PM
I've defended Oz in the past, but even I have given up the schtick now. There's no defense for the poor job he is doing this season. None whatsoever.

100% agree, though I was kind of done with him last season.

kaufsox
07-11-2011, 03:07 PM
Never quit. Wait to get fired and get as much as you can out of your ex-employer. A life-lesson from the Oz.

got no problem with this, actually. I don't think I could just leave a few million on the table.

TaylorStSox
07-11-2011, 04:47 PM
Well for me as a fan, it's starting to look like the players don't care anymore. They show up just so they can play the game and go home. Nobody is ever held accountable.

Anyone who follows basketball might remember how a talented Bulls team looked in 07/08 when they quit on Skiles. The team just stopped caring and quit trying. I can't speak for anyone else, but that's a LOT how this Sox team feels to me. That's not to say I think they're trying to get Ozzie fired like that Bulls squad was with Skiles. But they're not playing like a team that expects to compete every night--and most nights, they don't compete.

What's frustrating is that despite a miserable first half (considering the talent on this squad) the team is STILL in the race, thanks largely to an outstanding pitching staff. And the teams that they're chasing are not at all impressive. The season isn't over, but every lifeless showing makes it clearer and clearer that a change needs to be made before it's too late--and a new manager might make the most sense.


Basketball and baseball and completely different in terms of intensity and it's effect on the outcome of the game. Playing harder works in basketball, in baseball, playing harder usually has a detrimental effect. I don't think this team has given up. If they had, they'd be ignoring the manager. Do you think Ramirez wanted to bunt the other day when he was 2 for 3 with a HR? If Guillen had "lost" this team, he would have been swinging away. Players will always give maximum effort, especially at the plate, because their numbers directly correlate with their pay check.

Our biggest problem isn't effort. It's that 3 of our most talented hitters (Dunn, Rios and Beckham) are in mental shambles. Dunn and Beckham are trying way too hard. They both have awful pitch recognition. They're out guessing themselves. They can't get the bat around on fastballs and they can't recognize a breaking ball. They have no command of the strike zone. Rios has lost all confidence. He looks absolutely defeated. They all have the offensive version of the Sax "yips." If these 3 guys get it together, we can turn it around. Unfortunately, I'm not so sure they can.

Noneck
07-11-2011, 04:56 PM
With Ozzie being under contract for next season he won't "quit" anything. He wants that money and has said to the medias (and I don't think it was in a funny way) "they'll have to fire me..."

Lip


If he knows he is assured a better gig elsewhere, why wouldn't he quit in order to get that gig? Any contract he would get from a new team would be longer than the one he has that expires in 2012. Jobs disappear in a heartbeat, if he doesnt take one that he knows he can get now, he may be forced to want ad looking in 2012.

That is unless he wants to be fired now so he can lay on the beach in 2012 and take his chances in 2013.

voodoochile
07-11-2011, 04:59 PM
If he knows he is assured a better gig elsewhere, why wouldn't he quit in order to get that gig? Any contract he would get from a new team would be longer than the one he has that expires in 2012. Jobs disappear in a heartbeat, if he doesnt take one that he knows he can get now, he may be forced to want ad looking in 2012.

Maybe he figures he can take a year off and sit on his ass and recharge his batteries. I don't see him back next year if the Sox fail to make the playoffs or at the least put together a very strong second half run that falls just short.

Noneck
07-11-2011, 05:15 PM
Maybe he figures he can take a year off and sit on his ass and recharge his batteries.

Yea I added that, probably the same time you were responding.

kufram
07-11-2011, 05:15 PM
I can imagine OG managing another team some day and maybe even as soon as next year. But I really don't think Ozzie is with the White Sox just to pick up a pay check or to maximize his income although that would not be a crime. I think Ozzie loves the White Sox and wants them to win as much as anybody on this site wants them to win. He may be guilty of some of the things he's accused of here but I really don't think he's soaking the situation for personal gain.

Tragg
07-11-2011, 05:19 PM
If he knows he is assured a better gig elsewhere, why wouldn't he quit in order to get that gig? Any contract he would get from a new team would be longer than the one he has that expires in 2012. Jobs disappear in a heartbeat, if he doesnt take one that he knows he can get now, he may be forced to want ad looking in 2012.

That is unless he wants to be fired now so he can lay on the beach in 2012 and take his chances in 2013.
He might quit; but he'd do so at the end of the season. Mid-season resignations always are accompanied by that gave-up or fired stigma.

voodoochile
07-11-2011, 05:40 PM
I can imagine OG managing another team some day and maybe even as soon as next year. But I really don't think Ozzie is with the White Sox just to pick up a pay check or to maximize his income although that would not be a crime. I think Ozzie loves the White Sox and wants them to win as much as anybody on this site wants them to win. He may be guilty of some of the things he's accused of here but I really don't think he's soaking the situation for personal gain.

I agree with that too. I believe Ozzie has a genuine passion for the game and for the Sox. I also think he's one of several people in the organization who at the moment are unsure about how to fix the problems on the team.

guillensdisciple
07-11-2011, 05:46 PM
I want heads to roll this season, but you have to think about it this way- Adam Dunn, Alex Rios, Juan Pierre, Gordon Beckham, and Jake Peavy have not sucked the entire time this year because of the guy. He makes the line ups and the calls, and the players are supposed to execute. I will agree that sometimes Ozzie makes horrible horrible calls, but blaming him for a season in which the players who are supposed to step up have disappeared is kind of dumb. I would have no problem with him being gone, but that's because I don't think he's the same kind of motivate the players manager he used to be- they have gotten tired of his act and don't response. However, that in itself has nothing to do with how horribly these players have underperformed.

DickAllen72
07-11-2011, 05:55 PM
Maybe the Sox need to hire a special hitting coach just to work with Dunn, Rios, beckham and Morel. Then they can keep Paulie's buddy Walker and still have a chance at turning around their struggling hitters. If the guy doesn't succeed, nothing lost. If he does, not only does it help the Sox win games but it also illustrates Walker's incompetence.

Remember a few years ago when Hriniak had Uribe crushing the ball until the following season when Walker had him abandon the timing device Hriniak had him using?

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 08:00 PM
As far as the intensity/playing hard question...

There are certain times - when batting, pitching, etc. - when "playing hard" would be detrimental. Rather, you'd want to be completely relaxed so you can focus on the task at hand (pitching, hitting).

The, there are other aspects of the game - especially aspects of fielding like throwing to the proper base in a given situation - that should be practiced with sufficient frequency to make sure they are automatic. It's more "playing smart" than "playing hard."

However, at other times - chasing down a batted ball in the gaps, running to steal a base, trying to take the extra base - when it's absolutely essential to hustle/play hard.

sunofgold
07-11-2011, 09:01 PM
got no problem with this, actually. I don't think I could just leave a few million on the table.

Gil Meche did. $12M on the table.

As for Ozzie, how about 2008. How did that win the division? We had Vazquez. No CF really until we got Griffrey Jr. ..Wise in left. Lost Quentin for the last month. Crede on DL. Swisher moping around. Don't think that we had a leadoff guy that year. lol!

A. Cavatica
07-11-2011, 09:48 PM
Ozzie's entitled to his money. The Sox were stupid enough to extend him; they need to pony up, because he needs to be fired more than any manager I can remember. He was bad when he was on board with the program; now he's just a cancer.

Frater Perdurabo
07-11-2011, 09:52 PM
As for Ozzie, how about 2008. How did that win the division? We had Vazquez. No CF really until we got Griffrey Jr. ..Wise in left. Lost Quentin for the last month. Crede on DL. Swisher moping around. Don't think that we had a leadoff guy that year. lol!

Quentin (.965 OPS), Thome (.865) and Dye (.885) carried the offense in 2008. AJ, Alexei and Cabrera hit well. Paulie had a bad first four months but finished strong, essentially replacing Quentin's production in September. Despite his awful average, Swisher added 24 HR. Danks, Buehrle, Floyd had sub-4 ERAs; Contreras and Vazquez ate innings. Jenks, Thornton, Dotel locked down the back end of the pen; Carrasco was great in long relief. Crede/Uribe, Cabrera, Alexei, Paulie provided excellent infield defense; the BA/Wise platoon fielded well and added another 14 HRs and 17 2Bs in less than 350 combined plate appearances.

In short, the 2008 team should have run away with the division, if not for the Quentin, Contreras and Crede injuries. If they had clinched in Game 159 or 160, they would have set up their rotation to have Danks and Buehrle each pitch twice in a potential five game series against the Rays. And under those circumstances, I think they would have been even money to win such a series, even without home field advantage.

The Sox were 9-10 against MIN that year, with a 101-99 run differential in the Sox favor; better managing from Ozzie might have allowed the Sox to win one or two more games against MIN, especially one of the four one-run losses (two were in Games 157 and 158, in that crucial sweep in the Dome), thus making Game 163 unnecessary.

#1swisher
07-11-2011, 09:55 PM
Sox Drawer: It's not Kenny or Jerry's fault...


http://www.csnchicago.com/07/11/11/Sox-Drawer-Ozzie-admits-its-our-fault/landing_soxdrawer_v3.html?blockID=540601&feedID=661&awid=7363417107725389509

Golden Sox
07-12-2011, 10:04 AM
White Sox fans are not stupid. When the White Sox are playing at home and they are losing by a couple of runs after the 7th inning, half of the fans leave and go home. They realize that the team is going to lose. They simply have too many outs in the lineup, and the team is not going to come back and win the game. There might be some player movement soon, but I don't see this team getting much better because of it. I'm hoping Dunn and Rios have good second halfs and hopefully the White Sox will be able to trade both of them in the off season. If you think thats not possible, just remember the bad guys from the Northside of Chicago were able to trade Milton Bradley in the off season a couple of years ago.

sunofgold
07-19-2011, 10:29 AM
They seem to be showcasing him a lot recently. He has started 5 straight games at 3B while we have Vizquel and Morel. Teahen used to start only once in awhile.

Teahen is a career .260-.270 hitter. Maybe a NL team desperate for offense will bite?

HOw about you Pirates. C'mon down and let's make a deal. lol!

Get rid of Teahen and open a roster spot for Viciedo. Seems like the only type of deal White Sox can make now.