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JermaineDye05
07-07-2011, 01:37 AM
Is this the most frustrating season that we've had with the Oz/KW tandem?

Crooked Number
07-07-2011, 02:03 AM
Here is how i see it:

2006: Collapse in the second half was heart breaking, but the team went 90-72 which was excellent. Who could have guessed not one, but two AL Central teams would finish with 96 and 95 wins. Fun fact, our division was the only one to have more than one 90 win team, and it had three. Being World Series champs certainly helped dull the pain, much like the Hawks this year (except they got a chance to defend their trophy)

2007: Injuries and bullpen collapse helped make this one a "write off" season. The team was flat out terrible, and it remained bad. Which, as a fan makes it less agonizing, at least you know what you have with the team.

2008: This is high up on the list for most frustrating team, but they completely redeemed themselves in game 163. If they had lost, it would have taken the cake. I was at three games that final homestand, and each time was beside myself. The twins got swept by the royals at home, and we could not get it done. Then i scored my game 163 ticket and witnessed the most exciting Whitesox game i've ever seen. I wasn't fortunate enough to get to any '05 playoff games, so this one made up for it.

2009: This team was pretty maddening, but they did finish with a 5 game over home record. They finished with another second half slide and posted a 4 game under overall record. I remember two things, the team was what we thought it was, and 7.5 games back is a lot. Doesn't seem like it is with two months left, but with 1 month left...

2010: If you made this poll last year, this would have received my vote. Oh my god was this year frustrating. Up and down, inconsistent, the bad press with Oney and Jenks. The bullpen implosion in the second half, watching Linebrink pour gas on fires. We all remember last season, and most swore it off thinking the next one couldn't possibly be that gut wrenching, kick-you-in -the-crotch type. At least i did. But oh no, no, no, no.

2011 is hands down, the most frustrating, underachieving, waste of a championship pitching staff team I have ever seen. I have been following this team since i was old enough to understand it and my god there was never a team that has come close to this frustrating.

All the other teams had legitimate "excuses" or reasons in my opinion. Management, players, everything is just not right. The worst part about it is it's the eruption of a "volcano of bad" that we have seen with this team since the 2nd half of '06. This time there is no excuses, and with the highest payroll to date, this team barring some miracle in the next few months is going to take the cake.

russ99
07-07-2011, 02:15 AM
I sat through both games of the 2007 Twins double header, end of discussion.

We haven't hit that level of nastiness yet. This year is more like 2 up, 1 way down, 1 up, 2 way down, repeating the cycle and same mistakes in the down games.

A. Cavatica
07-07-2011, 02:41 AM
The worst part about it is it's the eruption of a "volcano of bad" that we have seen with this team since the 2nd half of '06. This time there is no excuses, and with the highest payroll to date, this team barring some miracle in the next few months is going to take the cake.

I agree.

And I read "volcano of bad" to mean the same problems many astute WSI posters have been calling out since 2006.

Bad talent evaluation of young and old players alike. A preference for "name" players over kids, regardless of cost, contract length, projectable or even actual performance level. Bad field managing. Bad coaching. A roster full of fundamentally unsound players. Teams that are mentally weak and go into massive slumps. Conceding series to the Twins before even playing them. Lack of accountability. Condescending attitutde toward the fans.

All these problems are on display in 2011, and they're getting worse.

Dan H
07-07-2011, 04:58 AM
I have been a long-time fan and have seen a lot of bad White Sox baseball. But I don't ever remember hating to watch a team like this one. This has been a dreadful season.

soxfanatlanta
07-07-2011, 07:08 AM
2006 was the most frustrating. Seeing that team fall apart in the second half was like watching an awful movie. I came into this year knowing there were too many holes in the lineup; I heard too many times the phrase, "If this guy performs, and this guy does well, and [on and on], we will be in great shape!".

LITTLE NELL
07-07-2011, 07:39 AM
Since the middle of 2006 this team has frustrated the hell out of me. This year feels worse but its only because its fresh in our minds.
And it seems to be the same problem every year; doing the little things to win games, hitting with RISP and failure to beat the teams in our division especially the Twins..
I dread these next 4 games, it would not surprise me if they sweep us.
As I said in my post game comment, these guys do not have a winning attitude, Orlando Cabrerra brought it up in 08 and Peavy said it this year. The grinder mentality of 05 is gone. Look at a guy like Rios, that bum does not come close to a grinder. These guys need a gut check.

russ99
07-07-2011, 09:32 AM
I have been a long-time fan and have seen a lot of bad White Sox baseball. But I don't ever remember hating to watch a team like this one. This has been a dreadful season.

Try 1986 through 1989. Those are dreadful seasons, we're currently 2 games under .500.

Maybe we're more frustrated this year than others since on paper this team looks good and has fallen short of expectations.

Seems to me that the common theme this year is when we win, everyone's OK for a time. When we lose, all the whiners and axe-grinders come out of the woodwork.

And complain if you will about the up and down seasons since 2005, but would you rather have the Sox undergo a tailspin like our World Series competitors, the Astros, have had during the same timeframe? At least Jerry and Kenny are trying to put a competitive team out there.

JC456
07-07-2011, 09:37 AM
this year's team is not fun to watch at all! Infact, it is hard to watch this team. Frustration is an understatement!

JC456
07-07-2011, 09:42 AM
Try 1986 through 1989. Those are dreadful seasons, we're currently 2 games under .500.

Maybe we're more frustrated this year than others since on paper this team looks good and has fallen short of expectations.

Seems to me that the common theme this year is when we win, everyone's OK for a time. When we lose, all the whiners and axe-grinders come out of the woodwork.

And complain if you will about the up and down seasons since 2005, but would you rather have the Sox undergo a tailspin like our World Series competitors, the Astros, have had during the same timeframe? At least Jerry and Kenny are trying to put a competitive team out there.

Almost all key players on this team are head cases! Rios, Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Ramirez and now Adam Dunn. All you have to do is look at their faces during a game. Lost, and continued lost. Clueless too! And then there's Juan Pierre! Boo to this team!

LITTLE NELL
07-07-2011, 09:55 AM
I for one have not hopped aboard the bandwagon after a win or two. Since we were 11 games under we have gone 9 over since, it is just about the ugliest 9 over period I've ever seen. Nothing really to get excited about in that time except PK and Humber. No real solid games except the last 2 when we were in Arizona. Im still waiting for this team to fire on all 8 pistons.

asindc
07-07-2011, 09:56 AM
Almost all key players on this team are head cases! Rios, Floyd, Danks, Quentin, Ramirez and now Adam Dunn. All you have to do is look at their faces during a game. Lost, and continued lost. Clueless too! And then there's Juan Pierre! Boo to this team!

How is Danks a head case?

Hitmen77
07-07-2011, 10:01 AM
Try 1986 through 1989. Those are dreadful seasons, we're currently 2 games under .500.

Maybe we're more frustrated this year than others since on paper this team looks good and has fallen short of expectations.

Seems to me that the common theme this year is when we win, everyone's OK for a time. When we lose, all the whiners and axe-grinders come out of the woodwork.

And complain if you will about the up and down seasons since 2005, but would you rather have the Sox undergo a tailspin like our World Series competitors, the Astros, have had during the same timeframe? At least Jerry and Kenny are trying to put a competitive team out there.

So, as long as the White Sox aren't as bad as the absolutely worst team in MLB, anyone who complains is a "whiner"? :?:

By the way, I didn't "hate" the 1989 team. Anyone who paid attention to that team knew it was getting its act together in the 2nd half with an exciting and promising group of young talent that would make the Sox contenders in the near future.

JC456
07-07-2011, 11:15 AM
How is Danks a head case?
When there is an error in the field, he let's it in his head. Everytime. His facial expressions show at times he is clueless on what to throw.

russ99
07-07-2011, 01:37 PM
So, as long as the White Sox aren't as bad as the absolutely worst team in MLB, anyone who complains is a "whiner"? :?:

By the way, I didn't "hate" the 1989 team. Anyone who paid attention to that team knew it was getting its act together in the 2nd half with an exciting and promising group of young talent that would make the Sox contenders in the near future.

No, but a little perspective is in order. Had Jerry fired everyone after 2007 and brought in a manager and GM who kowtowed to what Jerry wants, instead of pushing the envelope and shooting for a contenting team every year there's a good chance we'd be where the Astros are now, especially considering the same quality of farm system.

Again, we're 2 games under .500 with 4 to play before the break. This Twins series is going to tell us a lot about the Sox.

Don't mean to push buttons on the whining comment, people need to stop freaking out after every loss, as if we're a last place team with no chance.

doublem23
07-07-2011, 01:40 PM
This Twins series is going to tell us a lot about the Sox.

Not really, these guys swept the Red Sox (somewhat impressively, I might add), at Fenway Park a month ago and they've played the same old, same old doldrum baseball since then (16-14). They're an OK team that kind of plays to the level of their competition most of the time. If they go 4-0, 0-4 or somewhere in between, this will be the same bunch of underachievers.

kittle42
07-07-2011, 01:41 PM
Don't mean to push buttons on the whining comment, people need to stop freaking out after every loss, as if we're a last place team with no chance.

There are a great number of us who feel this team has no chance to win the division after wins, too. The same flaws are there. They are a .500, at best, team unless something drastic changes.

Don't lump everyone into one category.

Jerko
07-07-2011, 01:57 PM
I don't know if it's the most frustrating team, but yesterday was the most BORING-ass game I've ever been to in person. And that includes a 1-0 Hawks/Nashville stinker in an empty UC when the Hawks were pitiful.

A. Cavatica
07-07-2011, 09:54 PM
There are a great number of us who feel this team has no chance to win the division after wins, too. The same flaws are there. They are a .500, at best, team unless something drastic changes.

Don't lump everyone into one category.

And many of us don't even mind a losing team if it has a core of young players who are worth watching.

The 1999 team (75 wins) had Konerko and Lee and Magglio.

The 1995 team (68 wins) had Durham breaking in, to go with Thomas and Ventura in their primes, and Fernandez and Alvarez in the rotation.

The 1989 team (69 wins) was terrible, but it had a real leader in Fisk. It had 20-year-old Sammy Sosa and 21-year-old Robin Ventura. And it had a smart manager.

I had to go back to 1988 to find a team that offered less hope than this one -- and at least they weren't hamstrung by salaries.

GoGoCrede
07-07-2011, 09:57 PM
The last few times I've gotten churros, they've been cold and/or stale.

enurb
07-07-2011, 10:36 PM
Rios
Teahen
Dunn

That should be the end of KW.

doublem23
07-07-2011, 10:44 PM
The last few times I've gotten churros, they've been cold and/or stale.

We shouldn't fire the churro guy, though, because how do you know the new guy will be able to keep them hot? Better play it safe.

Brian26
07-07-2011, 11:08 PM
I had to go back to 1988 to find a team that offered less hope than this one -- and at least they weren't hamstrung by salaries.

Great comparison here. The '87 and '88 teams had some guys with loads of talent on paper who just didn't produce. Alex Rios = Gary Redus. Edwin Jackson = Neil Allen.

DirtySox
07-07-2011, 11:08 PM
We shouldn't fire the churro guy, though, because how do you know the new guy will be able to keep them hot? Better play it safe.

Win.

A. Cavatica
07-08-2011, 12:17 AM
Great comparison here. The '87 and '88 teams had some guys with loads of talent on paper who just didn't produce. Alex Rios = Gary Redus. Edwin Jackson = Neil Allen.

Take a look at '86 (72 wins).

After '83, they tried to keep the core together and plug holes with veterans -- because the kids (Tim Hulett, Daryl Boston, Joel Davis) weren't very good.

In '86 they still had Dotson and Bannister in the rotation, and tried to fill it out with Joe Cowley, Davis, Neil Allen, Jose DeLeon, Tom Seaver, and Steve Carlton. Those guys did OK; despite the turnover, the rotation was serviceable. But only Davis lasted to '98.

The bad news? Bob James, the closer, imploded. Carlton Fisk batted .221 with little power. Julio Cruz batted .215, with only 7 steals. Ron Kittle batted .213. Hulett batted .231. Ozzie batted .250 with a .576 OPS.

Only the first baseman, Greg Walker, and the right fielder, Harold Baines, hit worth a damn.

Want comparables?

Jose DeLeon = Edwin Jackson. Incredible stuff, 86-119 lifetime.
Bob James = Matt Thornton. Failed as closers.
Carlton Fisk = Adam Dunn. Easily the worst year in a great career.
Julio Cruz = Juan Pierre. Lost his speed, out of MLB the next year.
Tim Hulett = Brent Morel.

Tony LaRussa = Ozzie Guillen (wishful thinking). Owner got tired of underachieving team. Fired midseason.

Lip Man 1
07-08-2011, 12:29 AM
Cavatica:

I don't think your comments are totally accurate.

James imploded because he blew out his knee in Baltimore in July of 85 and was never quiet the same. He saved 32 games with an ERA of 2.1 in 85. "Failed closer" is inaccurate.

Tony LaRussa did not get along with Hawk Harrelson and Dave Duncan got along with him even less. Hawk had some very different ideas about what a staff should do and what it should look like and they clashed with Tony. Not saying what Hawk wanted to do was right or wrong, but in fact, no one ever again anywhere in MLB (that I know of) even hinted at doing some of the things he wanted to do.

Yes JR approved the firing, then in retrospect told the media on more than one occasion it was "the worst mistake he ever made as owner..."

Regarding the decision to make Hawk the G.M. in the first place JR had this to say:

"Eddie and I would talk to Hawk and (Don) Drysdale at length, and Hawk more so, to identify problems in the organization, we were still neophytes in this business and we were impressed with the way Hawk pointed out our problems. [GM] wasn't something he really wanted him to do, but we urged him to help us out. The mistake was that when you go to a doctor who diagnoses open-heart surgery, you don't have him do the surgery because he diagnosed the problem, you get a heart surgeon. Just because Hawk was able to diagnose our problems did not mean he could solve them. It was a terrible position to put him in, and a year later, he said he wanted out." – Jerry Reinsdorf to the Chicago Tribune’s Melissa Issacson. May 28, 2004.

central44
07-08-2011, 12:53 AM
This is just a group of underachievers. On paper, this lineup should be running away with the divison (especiallly considering the pitching staff)--the talent is clearly there and every guy on this team has a track record that proves it.

So the fact that so many guys are having a terrible year simutaneously means something isn't working. I don't know if they tuned out the manager. I don't know if it's because the hitting coach doesn't have a clue how to work with swings. I find it hard to believe that every player on this team magically forgot how to hit though.

It's just frustrating because the division is still there for the taking, but something obviously needs to change before it's too late--and yet the organization seems to think the status quo is fine. It's not.

A. Cavatica
07-08-2011, 08:11 PM
Cavatica:

I don't think your comments are totally accurate.

Lip, I never let facts stand in the way of a good argument.

I forgot about James' injury. Yes, "failed closer" was harsh. The parallel with Thornton is that they both started their respective seasons as closers, and failed.

I do remember Reinsdorf publicly regretting letting LaRussa go, and it probably was a mistake, in hindsight. I have long had the feeling that Reinsdorf is scared to make the same mistake with Ozzie, never mind that Ozzie isn't half the manager LaRussa was, and that's the reason we haven't seen him fired yet.