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Lip Man 1
07-06-2011, 05:49 PM
As I read this, he's questioning their mental makeup and is calling them out (again...)

“It’s funny because you cannot teach those guys, you cannot talk to those guys. We have a shrink. I don’t know what he’s doing, but we have it. We have a coach (Greg Walker) that’s here at 8 o’clock in the morning every day working with them. We’ve got a video room. We’ve got a flip (drill). We’ve got all kinds of (stuff). Name it. It isn’t working."

Just a few thoughts. If Ozzie is being serious and not just blowing off steam that's a pretty scathing indictment no? "You can't teach them..."

Or could it also be like has been discussed, that Ozzie and this staff is not capable to teach all these different players in a way that gets through to them.

Either way regardless of who may be "at fault" the Sox have a serious problem don't they?

Lip

SOXSINCE'70
07-06-2011, 05:57 PM
As I read this, he's questioning their mental makeup and is calling them out (again...)

“It’s funny because you cannot teach those guys, you cannot talk to those guys. We have a shrink. I don’t know what he’s doing, but we have it. We have a coach (Greg Walker) that’s here at 8 o’clock in the morning every day working with them. We’ve got a video room. We’ve got a flip (drill). We’ve got all kinds of (stuff). Name it. It isn’t working."

Just a few thoughts. If Ozzie is being serious and not just blowing off steam that's a pretty scathing indictment no? "You can't teach them..."

Or could it also be like has been discussed, that Ozzie and this staff is not capable to teach all these different players in a way that gets through to them.

Either way regardless of who may be "at fault" the Sox have a serious problem don't they?

Lip

After today's barf-fest,:puking:it's hard to disagree.

Crestani
07-06-2011, 06:05 PM
As I read this, he's questioning their mental makeup and is calling them out (again...)

“It’s funny because you cannot teach those guys, you cannot talk to those guys. We have a shrink. I don’t know what he’s doing, but we have it. We have a coach (Greg Walker) that’s here at 8 o’clock in the morning every day working with them. We’ve got a video room. We’ve got a flip (drill). We’ve got all kinds of (stuff). Name it. It isn’t working."

Just a few thoughts. If Ozzie is being serious and not just blowing off steam that's a pretty scathing indictment no? "You can't teach them..."

Or could it also be like has been discussed, that Ozzie and this staff is not capable to teach all these different players in a way that gets through to them.

Either way regardless of who may be "at fault" the Sox have a serious problem don't they?

Lip


The Sox hitters simply will not make any adjustments at the plate.

If I were the opposing manager facing the Sox lineup I would ask that my farm director bring up the slowest pitchers with the highest ERA's in the minors to face the Sox so my weak pitcher's would get some confidence!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JermaineDye05
07-06-2011, 06:35 PM
You can't teach them? Or maybe your staff is incapable of teaching them.

soltrain21
07-06-2011, 06:52 PM
Just because Greg Walker is there at 8 in the morning helping doesn't really mean anything. I could try and go teach Chemistry at 8 in the morning everyday, too. Doesn't mean I know what the **** I'm talking about.

JermaineDye05
07-06-2011, 07:01 PM
Just because Greg Walker is there at 8 in the morning helping doesn't really mean anything. I could try and go teach Chemistry at 8 in the morning everyday, too. Doesn't mean I know what the **** I'm talking about.

The funny thing is that's the only thing that's been keeping Juan Pierre around.

Ignore the last couple of games.

Juan Pierre was AWFUL. He still is pretty bad.

However, the only reason he was sticking around, at least the only reason we were told, was because he worked so damn hard.

Apparently results don't matter to this staff.

Noneck
07-06-2011, 07:05 PM
Just because Greg Walker is there at 8 in the morning helping doesn't really mean anything.


In my many years of working, I have noticed that most people who come in early and leave late are either incompetent, do it as a show for their superiors, dont have a life outside of work or are given too much work to perform. I dont know Walker personally or exactly what he does but I bet one of the above is why he gets there at 8am.

Falstaff
07-06-2011, 07:10 PM
It is like this team needs someone to be (like in football) the "offensive coordinator". Needs to establish an overall strategy for putting runs on board as well as plan a, plan b, plan c. Everything from discipline at the plate, not swinging at garbage out of the zone, and running up pitch counts, bat skills to foul off good pitches and turn on fat fastballs. Remind Oz of basic offensive strategies like "don't bunt stupidly" to "don't bat Dunn #3". You know, an offensive coordinator that has authority and gravitas to guide the team according to principles that are so obvious to fans like us. Ozzie can be the mouthpiece and colorful on field manager, but leave the offensive decisions to the technician, the offensive coordinator.

hi im skot
07-06-2011, 07:21 PM
In my many years of working, I have noticed that most people who come in early and leave late are either incompetent, do it as a show for their superiors, dont have a life outside of work or are given too much work to perform. I dont know Walker personally or exactly what he does but I bet one of the above is why he gets there at 8am.

****, don't tell my boss I'm working late tonight...

doublem23
07-06-2011, 07:48 PM
Shut up and win some games, Ozzie. People will get off your back then.

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2011, 07:55 PM
The funny thing is that's the only thing that's been keeping Juan Pierre around.

Ignore the last couple of games.

Juan Pierre was AWFUL. He still is pretty bad.

However, the only reason he was sticking around, at least the only reason we were told, was because he worked so damn hard.

Apparently results don't matter to this staff.

Right now Juan Pierre is pretty low down on the list of the offense's problems.

#1swisher
07-06-2011, 09:19 PM
Here is a highlight of Joe Paterno and Ed Krzyzewski on what makes a good teacher.

ESPNs Difference Makers: Life Lessons

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6686639


http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/espn-taping-special-program-with-paterno-krzyzewski-at-penn-state-773263/

thomas35forever
07-06-2011, 09:33 PM
Either this coaching staff is doing a ****ty job of getting through to the players or the players are just tuning them out for one reason or another. This is not the makeup of a playoff team, much less a championship team. It makes you wonder as a fan why we keep putting up with this crap.

cbrownson13
07-06-2011, 09:48 PM
My question is what, exactly, are they supposed to be taught? Specifically.

Ozzie isn't exactly wrong. For the most part, (outside of Morel and Beckham) these are all veteran players. These players are what they are. Dunn and Rios are veterans who have pretty much been the same players for their whole career. (With a few exceptions, this year being one of them) It's not about teaching them something new, it's about finding out what they're doing differently from when they had success.

To me, Dunn is either heavier than he has been and this is slowing his swing down. Or he's just done. (see Chuck Knoblauch/Mark Wohlers)

balke
07-06-2011, 10:09 PM
Right now Juan Pierre is pretty low down on the list of the offense's problems.

Morel is the worst offensive 3Bman in baseball next to Chone Figgins.

Beckham at least is a 2Bman but sucks.

Guessing Rios is the worst CFer offensively in baseball.

Dunn.

Tragg
07-06-2011, 10:16 PM
My question is what, exactly, are they supposed to be taught? Specifically.
Approach. Patience.
How to attack specific pitchers.
Finding small quirks in swings that can be fixed, particularly when a hitter hits a bit differently than he did.

A. Cavatica
07-06-2011, 10:25 PM
Ozzie, just admit it.

"I can't teach them."

VMSNS
07-06-2011, 10:27 PM
Wow...Ozzie's defense of Walker is "He comes in early and works really hard with the hitters!"

Big freakin' deal, Oz. Wake the hell up and realize that despite Walker's commitment, whatever his approach is, it ISN'T WORKING.

HebrewHammer
07-07-2011, 02:29 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2e/Pat-Morita_(Karate_Kid).jpg/220px-Pat-Morita_(Karate_Kid).jpg

"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher."

JermaineDye05
07-07-2011, 02:30 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2e/Pat-Morita_%28Karate_Kid%29.jpg/220px-Pat-Morita_%28Karate_Kid%29.jpg

"No such thing as bad student, only bad teacher."

Look eye.

Always look eye.

russ99
07-07-2011, 02:37 AM
Here is a highlight of Joe Paterno and Ed Krzyzewski on what makes a good teacher.

ESPNs Difference Makers: Life Lessons

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=6686639

http://www.statecollege.com/news/local-news/espn-taping-special-program-with-paterno-krzyzewski-at-penn-state-773263/

Spot on.

But the problem is that this kind of approach rarely works with pro athletes, who are ego and stat/salary driven. This is why even good college coaches so often fail at the pro level.

Many good college coaches refuse to even try to get a pro job because they feel they can make an impact on the lives of kids, but will get tuned out by a pro, who often thinks he knows everything.

IMO, some of these guys need a shrink more than a coach.

kufram
07-07-2011, 03:12 AM
In my many years of working, I have noticed that most people who come in early and leave late are either incompetent, do it as a show for their superiors, dont have a life outside of work or are given too much work to perform. I dont know Walker personally or exactly what he does but I bet one of the above is why he gets there at 8am.

This statement has nothing to do with Greg Walker.

In my many years of working it has always been the most successful people that worked the hardest.

Noneck
07-07-2011, 03:27 AM
In my many years of working it has always been the most successful people that worked the hardest.

Working long hours was my point, not how hard one works. This of course is for employees not owners of a business.

Dan H
07-07-2011, 04:50 AM
I don't know if it is the hitters or the coaches but there has been awful execution at the plate this year. For example in game 1 against KC, the no-name pitcher was living on the outside part of the plate with junk. So Konerko goes with a pitch and doubles down the right field line to lead off an inning. Up comes Quentin. Did he even notice what Konerko did? Nope. He tries to pull an outside breaking pitch and tips it into the catcher's glove. He ends up striking out on a pitch in the dirt in an awful at bat. Konerko ended up stranded where he started - right at second.

This has happened all year. There are situations when a hitter is not even expected to hit a homer or even get a single. What is needed is a sacrifice fly or hitting to the right side to move a runner. And many times they don't even put the ball in play. You can blame that on on bad coaching or bad players. In the end, it is just a lousy offense and it is obvious this team is going nowhere.

kufram
07-07-2011, 04:57 AM
I'm not going to defend Greg Walker. IF a new hitting coach solves the problem then that's what needs to be done. There is certainly an argument for firing Walker just to show that you are doing something but I, personally, wouldn't do it for that reason alone. I think it is a poor reason to do anything.

Loyalty, to me, is of high value both from those whom I employ and to those who employ me. You cannot buy it, so I can understand the loyalty card between JR and those he chooses to employ. Having said that I would not spend hard earned money going to games for at least large parts of the last few seasons. Every fan has to make their own choices.

One thing I'm pretty sure of is that even a player of Brent Morel's age, who is in his rookie season, has been taught by every coach at every level to not swing at pitches up and out of the zone... especially with a hitter's count (let alone 3-0), with men on base, in a ball game that you are trailing, and where the pitcher has started missing his spots and is working from the stretch for the first time. Morel swung at at least 2, I think 3 pitches that were clearly ball 4 in my opinion. Now, how anyone can blame Greg Walker or anyone else for that is beyond me.

I'm also pretty sure that Paul Konerko would take full responsibility for swinging at 2 questionable pitches and then taking strike 3.

SI1020
07-07-2011, 08:43 AM
This statement has nothing to do with Greg Walker.

In my many years of working it has always been the most successful people that worked the hardest. I've found that although there are successful people who put in long hours, I prefer those that work smartest. Balance in all things is important.

hawkjt
07-07-2011, 08:50 AM
The funny thing is that's the only thing that's been keeping Juan Pierre around.

Ignore the last couple of games.

Juan Pierre was AWFUL. He still is pretty bad.

However, the only reason he was sticking around, at least the only reason we were told, was because he worked so damn hard.

Apparently results don't matter to this staff.

Juan is hitting .380 the last 10 games. And almost more importantly,he actually has come thru in some clutch situations,which is a rarity on this team. Besides PK..no one is coming thru with men on base. Pierre is hitting .310 with RISP for the season,which is far better than Dunn,Rios,Morel,Beckham,Alexei,AJ,Quentin,and Lilly...but again,you are certain that Juan is THE problem with the offense. Find a new scapegoat,cus Juan is the hottest hitter on the team right now.

chisox12
07-07-2011, 08:54 AM
I'm not going to defend Greg Walker. IF a new hitting coach solves the problem then that's what needs to be done. There is certainly an argument for firing Walker just to show that you are doing something but I, personally, wouldn't do it for that reason alone. I think it is a poor reason to do anything.


It's ****ty that the hitting coach always seems to be the scapegoat, but the Sox have to DO SOMETHING. I mean, how many years in a row is this that our offense has been like this? It just keeps getting worse. Maybe a different approach from someone new will wake this team up. But honestly, at this point I don't know if anything can wake this team up.

kufram
07-07-2011, 09:24 AM
It's ****ty that the hitting coach always seems to be the scapegoat, but the Sox have to DO SOMETHING. I mean, how many years in a row is this that our offense has been like this? It just keeps getting worse. Maybe a different approach from someone new will wake this team up. But honestly, at this point I don't know if anything can wake this team up.Everybody is clutching at straws here so I'll clutch at mine. I suspect it is nothing to do with the obvious and there are underlying problems. A lot of players just have not looked happy to me. I know it is easy to say but if I was being paid very large sums of money to play baseball for a living I would be smiling more.

Even when Rios failed to catch the home run he didn't even look mildly disappointed. I think Tori Hunter would have been very angry not to have caught that ball and it would have showed. Maybe there are issues away from the field of play that have been effecting people. That still should not effect the way the bats are being swung, in my view, but the problem appears to me to be mental not ability.

cws05champ
07-07-2011, 09:38 AM
I don't know if it is the hitters or the coaches but there has been awful execution at the plate this year. For example in game 1 against KC, the no-name pitcher was living on the outside part of the plate with junk. So Konerko goes with a pitch and doubles down the right field line to lead off an inning. Up comes Quentin. Did he even notice what Konerko did? Nope. He tries to pull an outside breaking pitch and tips it into the catcher's glove. He ends up striking out on a pitch in the dirt in an awful at bat. Konerko ended up stranded where he started - right at second.

This has happened all year. There are situations when a hitter is not even expected to hit a homer or even get a single. What is needed is a sacrifice fly or hitting to the right side to move a runner. And many times they don't even put the ball in play. You can blame that on on bad coaching or bad players. In the end, it is just a lousy offense and it is obvious this team is going nowhere.
+1

This team looks to be baseball stupid....and where does the blame ultimately lie, the coaching staff. How about coaching Lillibridge to choke up to shorten his long swing with the bases loaded and two strikes. Hitting behind runners to move them up(as stated above) etc.

They are just really hard to watch right now especially over the last 5 games or so. I'll record the games against the Twins(and go through them quickly) but I just can't sit through them and listen to/watch Hawk stroke the Twins ego while they hand it to us on the field.

I have been saying this along with others for 3 years; Fire Greg Walker. If he is not getting the job done(which results should dictate that)then there's no point to keeping him.

JC456
07-07-2011, 09:49 AM
Paul Konerko is the only player on this offense that has an idea when he comes to home plate. And like most all stars, still fails 2/3s of the time. That is average. The others on this team fail more than 2/3s of the time some are all the time. Predictable in fact. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times in a key situation, someone other than Konerko takes a fast ball right down the middle and ends up striking out on a pitch in the dirt. That is lack of discipline at the plate. They are predictable to a fault and the opposing teams know this. It isn't rocket science. But here is the coaching staff of our White Sox with no clue!!!!!

JC456
07-07-2011, 11:22 AM
AS for Adam Dunn, I don't know if anyone else has picked up on his stance, but I've noticed that when he does hit, his back foot is planted further off of home plate then when he is striking out. So he ends up further off the plate with his follow through. The last two homers have been like that! Now if they are watching videos, how do they miss that?

Soxfest
07-07-2011, 11:34 AM
:angry:OG defends Pierre and Walker it is NEVER Sox brass fault!:angry:

wassagstdu
07-07-2011, 05:50 PM
Ozzie said something else at the same time that I think hits the nail on the head"

"How about going back to the old style? No videos. No scouting reports. Just get up there and see the ball and hit the ball and see what happens. We've got too much freaking information."

Hitting is not a rational process, it is an instinctive, or automatic one. If you try to think while a pitch is on the way you are not going to hit it. This explains a lot of what ails the Sox, in my view. The more important an at bat is or the more pressure the player feels, the more he tries to think and the worse he does.

But the worse things get the harder Walker works, and the more the players look to him the more they are convinced to think.

Another aspect of this is the tendency to talk about "putting a good swing" on a pitch, or critiquing every mechanical aspect of the swing, like a golf swing. Well, if you treat a baseball swing like a golf swing you probably will only be able to hit a pitch in one spot and in one way. Ichiro is a lot more effective than any of the Sox' swing-meisters -- except Konerko, who is a special case, and the one kind of hitter that Walker's think and refine approach will work for. Obviously it does not work for the rest of the Sox lineup.

I'm with Ozzie. Lock the video room and give Walker a vacation.

enurb
07-07-2011, 10:35 PM
Ozzie is like Ditka post-85. Doesn't care. Wish I could say the same.

Frater Perdurabo
07-07-2011, 11:37 PM
Ozzie is like Ditka post-85. Doesn't care. Wish I could say the same.

I think he's more like Wanny. Or Jauron.