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View Full Version : *** Official *** Series loss to the Royals Post-Game Thread


doublem23
07-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Blegh

SoxSpeed22
07-06-2011, 04:51 PM
seconded
blegh

cleanwsox
07-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Might as well move the fences back 30 feet. A hitters park for a team that can't hit. Glorious!

soltrain21
07-06-2011, 04:52 PM
Awful.

harwar
07-06-2011, 04:52 PM
seconded
blegh

motion passes

PeteWard
07-06-2011, 04:53 PM
Disastrous start to the long AL Central part of the schedule. The only way to compensate for this abortion is to sweep the Twins---which I don't see.

fram40
07-06-2011, 04:53 PM
Bruce "Cy" Chen.

another career ****ing journeyman shuts the team down. Why am I surprised?

chisox12
07-06-2011, 04:53 PM
What a gutless team this is. Just in time for the Twins to come in and kick the **** out of us. The Sox will be lucky to win 1 game against the pirhanas.

Over By There
07-06-2011, 04:53 PM
The Sox get shut down by a soft-tosser. Shocking.

Every time this team starts to reel me back in, they kick me in the crotch.

Viva Walker! :tiphat:

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 04:53 PM
We've played so well againt our division this year.....

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 04:54 PM
Sox play down to the opponent at home 75% of the time. How OG and KW feel there are no issues with this team is beyond me.:angry:

TomBradley72
07-06-2011, 04:55 PM
So if not for a "Balk Off" we get swept by the Royals?

I keep considering going to my 3rd game of the year- not worth the money or the time.

Jimmy Piersall
07-06-2011, 04:56 PM
Yeah,but wait until it warms up,then we're gonna...nevermind.

kittle42
07-06-2011, 04:57 PM
Is anyone surprised? Absolute SAME THING DIFFERENT DAY. This game was like SO many this season thus far. How can anyone think things will change???

The hitting sucks. The only thing keeping anyone from focusing on Beckham, Dunn or Rios is that each of them is so atrocious that it requires too much energy to fire on all of them on a daily basis. And if we're really going to be fair, everyone except Konerko (including "all-star" Quentin, there's a head-scratcher) needs to be bashed daily.

It's simply not worth the time and effort, just as it isn't worth the time and effort for Ozzie Guillen to change his management style, for KW to change the organizational philosophy or for JR to fire, oh, anyone.

Hey, Twins - don't fret the bashing from the Rays today - you have a guaranteed 3-1 record in the next 4 games, with the one loss likely the result of an error or wild pitch after walking the bases loaded in a 0-0 or 1-1 game.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 04:57 PM
I keep considering going to my 3rd game of the year- not worth the money or the time.


I keep thinking the same thing to myself. I don't think I could bring myself to pay to go watch this horse**** right now.

amsteel
07-06-2011, 04:57 PM
It's gonna be hard to win the division when you can't beat the worst team in the division

This is the just the shot in the arm the Twins need

johnnyg83
07-06-2011, 04:57 PM
heal and grow ... cool wet grass ...release that which I cannot control

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 04:59 PM
I keep thinking the same thing to myself. I don't think I could bring myself to pay to go watch this horse**** right now.
I am not giving JR another dime in 2011. It is bad enough to watch this nonsense at home let alone pay for it.

Dick Allen
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
Once again, our starting pitcher didn't get the memo that a shutout was required.

PalehosePlanet
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
10 runs in the last 4 games vs. some of the worst pitching imaginable.

Too bad Paulie finally caught some second hand suckage from the rest of these plywood swinging sorry ass sons of bitches.

PeteWard
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
heal and grow ... cool wet grass ...release that which I cannot control

SERENITY NOW!!!!:mad:

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:00 PM
I am not giving JR another dime in 2011. It is bad enough to watch this nonsense at home let alone pay for it.

I agree. I luckily frontloaded my part of the season ticket plan I have, have sold most of those, am 2-4 in games attended at the Cell, and am selling the rest. Screw it.

soltrain21
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Can the term "gutless" get the B-Mac treatment on this board?

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
I am not giving JR another dime in 2011. It is bad enough to watch this nonsense at home let alone pay for it.

Yep, not unless something changes with this team big time and it's really hard to see that happening at this point.

Blueprint1
07-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Greg Walker still has a job. What a joke.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:02 PM
Greg Walker still has a job. What a joke.

I'm sure Rongey is defending Walker as we speak...

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 05:03 PM
Greg Walker still has a job. What a joke.
He has a pass for life I guess blind loyalty is the deathnail of the franchise right now.:angry:

DickAllen72
07-06-2011, 05:04 PM
If changes aren't made now, after this debacle and going into a four game series against the Twins, then what's the use?

Man up, KW!

SoxSpeed22
07-06-2011, 05:04 PM
I'm sure Rongey is defending Walker as we speak...Post game show just started, he's getting mentally prepared for it. He knows he's in for another long one...

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:04 PM
This team needs 5-10 top psychologists in the world to help them get over their mental issues. Then maybe we can get the ball rolling.

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:05 PM
He has a pass for life I guess blind loyalty is the deathnail of the franchise right now.:angry:

JR once said he'd give up all 6 NBA titles for one World Series...I guess we are seeing how much he really meant that based on the reign of terror that has been in place since then.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Post game show just started, he's getting mentally prepared for it. He knows he's in for another long one...

I'm happy I'm still at work and not in the car listening to that...I don't think I could handle it today.

Sox35th
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
Donít stop now boysÖ...Tip them caps!!

CHISOXFAN13
07-06-2011, 05:06 PM
I'm sure Rongey is defending Walker as we speak...

Before or after he rips fans because it's too early to be concerned?

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
JR once said he'd give up all 6 NBA titles for one World Series...I guess we are seeing how much he really meant that based on the reign of terror that has been in place since then.

Does this mean we're stuck with KW and this coaching staff for life?!?!??:angry::angry::angry:

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
I'm sure Rongey is defending Walker as we speak...
Do not dare say 1 bad word about Rongey over at Soxtalk. I got a 10 day suspension for questioning his greatness last Sunday because he is a member was the excuse! I agree with you on Rongey 100%.

SI1020
07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
This team needs 5-10 top psychologists in the world to help them get over their mental issues. Then maybe we can get the ball rolling. Maybe they're just not collectively that good. I mean look at the roster up and down where is the top level baseball talent?

Jimmy Piersall
07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Time to bring up Viciedo yet,or are we saving him for Glendale ?

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:07 PM
Does this mean we're stuck with KW and this coaching staff for life?!?!??:angry::angry::angry:

Do you seriously *ever* see them voluntarily dismissing Ozzie? I don't. Williams? Maybe.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Before or after he rips fans because it's too early to be concerned?

I'm going to go with after. 80 something games in and no one in this organization can admit that this team is completely ****ed right now.

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Maybe they're just not collectively that good. I mean look at the roster up and down where is the top level baseball talent?

Have you not seen how good this team can be? There are really some serious mental issues going on with this team, that's my only conclusion.

DirtySox
07-06-2011, 05:08 PM
Can the term "gutless" get the Fingernails on a blackboard treatment on this board?

Seconded.

I also nominate "vocal leaders."

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Do not dare so 1 bad word about Rongey over at Soxtalk. I got a 10 day suspension for questioning his greatness last Sunday because he is a member was the excuse! I agree with you on Rongey 100%.

If some of us huge fans like Rongey is basically got paid to cover this team, knew the players and coaches and were around them every day, we might be as much an apologist/optimist as he is.

I'd like to think I'd be more like Melton or Farmer, not completely blasting anyone, but at least telling it like it is and expressing as much disgust as possible while still being a big supporter.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:09 PM
Do you seriously *ever* see them voluntarily dismissing Ozzie? I don't. Williams? Maybe.


Honestly, no. Maybe Williams. Personally I would get rid of Kenny. He has the balls to make moves, but more than half of them are complete garbage. But what the **** do I know??

DirtySox
07-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Time to bring up Viciedo yet,or are we saving him for Glendale ?

I wouldn't be surprised if Kenny is dangling him for a trade.

PeteWard
07-06-2011, 05:10 PM
Seconded.

I also nominate "vocal leaders."

"Squirrels and acorns" needs to be **** canned.

Argalarga
07-06-2011, 05:10 PM
The same issues have plagued this team for years. Poor play to start the season, inability to beat teams in their own division, a lack of situational hitting, an undisciplined approach to hitting, poor baserunning and lack of ability to throw out base-stealers.

Throw in an early-season meltdown by the bullpen, injuries in the starting rotation and abnormally bad numbers by a number of players at the same time...and that's your season.

SI1020
07-06-2011, 05:11 PM
Have you not seen how good this team can be? No. I've been mostly underwhelmed.

palehosepub
07-06-2011, 05:13 PM
I have been very patient this year but I have finally and officially given up on this team as fatally flawed , a team that canít win a very weak division that is there for the taking.
We have nothing to lose. My question is can the Sox make some significant, impactful changes to this team WITHOUT doing a total white flag / rebuilding scenario? Letís face it, we are stuck with Rios, Dunn and those bad contracts so we canít do anything with them but maybe we can make a few moves to wake this team up and possibly contend better now while getting younger too. I would, for example:
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 05:15 PM
I have been very patient this year but I have finally and officially given up on this team as fatally flawed , a team that canít win a very weak division that is there for the taking.
We have nothing to lose. My question is can the Sox make some significant, impactful changes to this team WITHOUT doing a total white flag / rebuilding scenario? Letís face it, we are stuck with Rios, Dunn and those bad contracts so we canít do anything with them but maybe we can make a few moves to wake this team up and possibly contend better now while getting younger too. I would, for example:
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

Palehose i would do all those plus 1 more............#5 OG fired also.

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:15 PM
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

I actually agree with each of these. Realistic and well-stated.

chisox12
07-06-2011, 05:16 PM
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

Can you please be the White Sox GM?

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:18 PM
I have been very patient this year but I have finally and officially given up on this team as fatally flawed , a team that canít win a very weak division that is there for the taking.
We have nothing to lose. My question is can the Sox make some significant, impactful changes to this team WITHOUT doing a total white flag / rebuilding scenario? Letís face it, we are stuck with Rios, Dunn and those bad contracts so we canít do anything with them but maybe we can make a few moves to wake this team up and possibly contend better now while getting younger too. I would, for example:
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

I have NO problem with everything you have said. Let's do it. What do we have to lose?

DirtySox
07-06-2011, 05:20 PM
I hope this team somehow becomes interesting by the time I head to the Cleveland series on the 23rd.

tstrike2000
07-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Is there a reason the *******s keep hitting Dunn third?

Lip Man 1
07-06-2011, 05:21 PM
Well that was wonderful wasn't it?

Like I said they are nothing but a big tease...maybe if we (the fans) are lucky this 125 million dollar club can have a winning record at season's end. That's about as good as it will get barring a major shakeup.

Sox hit a milestone today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By scoring three runs or less for the 44th time in 88 games they have now hit the 50% mark for offensive ineptitude for the year. Congrats to all who made this happen.

11 runs in the last five games.

Can't beat Detroit...can't beat the Twins and now can't beat the Royals (at least they are consistent...)

Lip

Dibbs
07-06-2011, 05:25 PM
I have been very patient this year but I have finally and officially given up on this team as fatally flawed , a team that canít win a very weak division that is there for the taking.
We have nothing to lose. My question is can the Sox make some significant, impactful changes to this team WITHOUT doing a total white flag / rebuilding scenario? Letís face it, we are stuck with Rios, Dunn and those bad contracts so we canít do anything with them but maybe we can make a few moves to wake this team up and possibly contend better now while getting younger too. I would, for example:
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

I like all of these as well. I would love to see what Edwin Jackson would yield us. Maybe 1/10th of what we gave up to get him?

CHISOXFAN13
07-06-2011, 05:25 PM
Is there a reason the *******s keep hitting Dunn third?

Outside of PK, there isn't anyone else who can hit there.

Q has been awful in the last month and Rios is useless. AJ is the only other hitter on the team carrying his weight, but I sure as hell don't want him in the three hole.

tstrike2000
07-06-2011, 05:27 PM
Outside of PK, there isn't anyone else who can hit there.

Q has been awful in the last month and Rios is useless. AJ is the only other hitter on the team carrying his weight, but I sure as hell don't want him in the three hole.

Maybe, but a .165-170 hitter has no business being in there either.

russ99
07-06-2011, 05:27 PM
Maybe Kenny will do something when we get swept by the Twins...

October26
07-06-2011, 05:27 PM
So disappointed amd beyond disgusted. :mad:

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:28 PM
Maybe Kenny will do something when we get swept by the Twins...

Don't hold your breath.

soxfanatlanta
07-06-2011, 05:30 PM
Adam Dunn is now batting .166 - firmly in the "completely useless" category.

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:30 PM
Actually, before we dump, maybe fire Walker first. Give the team 2 weeks and see what happens.....

russ99
07-06-2011, 05:30 PM
Don't hold your breath.

Kenny has done squat this season, only DL moves.

Paging our occasionally bold, "all in" GM...

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:31 PM
Adam Dunn is now batting .166 - firmly in the "completely useless" category.


Yeah but he has a good attitude:redneck

hawkjt
07-06-2011, 05:34 PM
Dunn did have the only rbi today.
We looked hapless but bunched our hits in the 6th,and had Morel up there with a 3-0 count...two strikes,a couple of foul balls,then a wild swing at ball 4 and a popup. Then Dunn walks,but PK strikes out,and Carlos pops up. Our ineptitude with runners on is reaching epic proportions. Like Hawk always says,we act like the pressure is on us...instead of the other way around.
Just brutal.

sox1970
07-06-2011, 05:34 PM
We're paying now for the championship six years ago.

Too much loyalty from the top on down.

This organization is broken.

JB98
07-06-2011, 05:35 PM
20-22 at home.

7-13 against AL Central foes.

39-53 against AL Central foes since Opening Day 2010.

Given that 52 of the remaining 74 games are against divisional opponents, that doesn't exactly inspire confidence, does it?

The Sox stink. Still time to make changes, but I'm not holding my breath. They are stubborn. They would rather lash out at their critics than solve problems.

SoxSpeed22
07-06-2011, 05:35 PM
We're paying now for the championship six years ago.

Too much loyalty from the top on down.

This organization is broken.Still worth it. :cool:

HaroMaster87
07-06-2011, 05:36 PM
Maybe Kenny will do something when we get swept by the Twins...

You made the wrong part of that sentence teal...should be the other way around..

:tiphat: Chen :tiphat:

Soxman219
07-06-2011, 05:37 PM
Hope the Sox brought their kneepads, it's time to start bowing to the Minnesota Twins again. :shakehead:

Lip Man 1
07-06-2011, 05:38 PM
Hawk:

Hawk's comments add more food for thought to the "mentally weak" scenario doesn't it?

These guys apparently don't react very well to pressure.

Which means as JB pointed out, if they can't beat teams in their own division the only place they are going to in October is home.

Lip

kittle42
07-06-2011, 05:38 PM
The Sox stink. Still time to make changes, but I'm not holding my breath. They are stubborn. They would rather lash out at their critics than solve problems.

How true. Well, I'm lashing out at them by not attending any more games unless this gets turned around. Unfortunately, they already have my money for about 6 more games from my part of my season tickets, but at least I won't be buying concessions. I'm checking with the intent of folding.

HaroMaster87
07-06-2011, 05:39 PM
We're paying now for the championship six years ago.

Too much loyalty from the top on down.

This organization is broken.

Not that concerned actually...this is a fan base that shows its displeasure with its ticket buying.

No wins=No shows..

We'll see what uncle Jerry thinks about his buddies ozzie and kenny when the Cell is a ghost town :bandance:

WhiteSox56
07-06-2011, 05:45 PM
Still worth it. :cool:

Still worth it? What about 10 years from now? Sure, I'm still happy we won in 05 and I will always be, but I cannot be content with losing from here on out just because of 2005.

pasquasroachclip
07-06-2011, 05:45 PM
You can't beat Bruce Chen (rodrigo Lopez, felipe paulino) you can only hope to contain them...
X

palehozenychicty
07-06-2011, 05:51 PM
I am comfortably numb about the Sox. This team has lost all equity from 2005. All of it. No excuse to not have this division in our hands. None.

russ99
07-06-2011, 05:52 PM
6/19 - Indians fire their hitting coach... 7/3 - Tigers fire their pitching coach...

7/6 - Sox get only 11 runs in the last 5 games, have 5 regular hitters batting under .260 and yet Greg Walker still has his job.

BTW - I'm not down with the fire Kenny and Ozzie bandwagon, since that likely means a 3-5 year rebuild, and I've been through too many of those...

TheOldRoman
07-06-2011, 05:54 PM
We'll see what uncle Jerry thinks about his buddies ozzie and kenny when the Cell is a ghost town :bandance:ZOMG! I can't wait!!1!!

Crestani
07-06-2011, 05:54 PM
Everyone needs to just relax....Our hitters will start coming around as soon as the weather warms....Probably in June or July..!!:angry:

By the way, IMO this catastrophe of a team is solely on Ken Williams. It's his team, he acquired the players...!!!

wassagstdu
07-06-2011, 05:55 PM
It is just not interesting, entertaining, or rewarding to spend time watching a bunch of multimillionaire head cases struggle to make fools of themselves.

Will someone take Rios if they package him with Konerko? How about Dunn with Quentin and Ramirez? Could they get two or three decent prospects out of that? Go for it.

I'll bet if they could keep the pitching intact and unload the dead weight along with those sweeteners they would still be a .500 team, but a more interesting one.

russ99
07-06-2011, 05:57 PM
It is just not interesting, entertaining, or rewarding to spend time watching a bunch of multimillionaire head cases struggle to make fools of themselves.

Will someone take Rios if they package him with Konerko? How about Dunn with Quentin and Ramirez? Could they get two or three decent prospects out of that? Go for it.

I'll bet if they could keep the pitching intact and unload the dead weight along with those sweeteners they would still be a .500 team, but a more interesting one.

I'd think you'd just have to move one big salary to have the others get the message...

And it's a testament to Paulie since unlike the other guys, he got his big payday and still puts out the most effort and results.

palehozenychicty
07-06-2011, 05:58 PM
It is just not interesting, entertaining, or rewarding to spend time watching a bunch of multimillionaire head cases struggle to make fools of themselves.

Will someone take Rios if they package him with Konerko? How about Dunn with Quentin and Ramirez? Could they get two or three decent prospects out of that? Go for it.

I'll bet if they could keep the pitching intact and unload the dead weight along with those sweeteners they would still be a .500 team, but a more interesting one.

I think they have to do it just to inject some sense of life. AJ has to go too. He's hit a little better, but they just need some new blood. Everywhere.

SoxSpeed22
07-06-2011, 06:00 PM
6/19 - Indians fire their hitting coach... 7/3 - Tigers fire their pitching coach...

7/6 - Sox get only 11 runs in the last 5 games, yet Greg Walker still has his job.

BTW - I'm not down with the fire Kenny and Ozzie bandwagon, since that likely means a 3-5 year rebuild, and I've been through too many of those...It might be the best way with the way this is going. We will be seeing the same things as long as the same people are here, and then we would be stuck in between. I don't trust this current management regime to find the right players, and I don't trust this coaching staff to properly develop them (save for Coop). There are many things wrong with this team.

DirtySox
07-06-2011, 06:03 PM
It might be the best way with the way this is going. We will be seeing the same things as long as the same people are here, and then we would be stuck in between. I don't trust this current management regime to find the right players, and I don't trust this coaching staff to properly develop them (save for Coop). There are many things wrong with this team.

Agreed. I would welcome a rebuild at this point. But I'm a patient person and enjoy watching baseball win or lose.

rcescato
07-06-2011, 06:05 PM
Disastrous start to the long AL Central part of the schedule. The only way to compensate for this abortion is to sweep the Twins---which I don't see.


Sweep the Twins LOL U mean they sweep us!! My prediction in 4 game series. Minn will win 3 or more games . They will score 10 or more runs. While the White Sox will lose 3 or more and score less than 4 runs. Meanwhile the Twins will dress there single A team and still route us.

Argalarga
07-06-2011, 06:09 PM
If it were just one off year, everything would be different.

But ever since we melted down half-way through 2006, it's been the same problems. Year after year after year of runners stranded in scoring position. Year after year after year of runners being thrown out stealing and caught off the bases. Year after year after year of the Twins and Tigers crushing us. Nothing changes.

And even with these serious issues, the Sox still somehow contend almost every year. Other than 2007, the Sox have spent at least some time deep into the summer in the running for a playoff spot. Even just last year, if we'd just gone .500 against the Twins, we would have won the division.

But not anymore. The cellular (no pun intended) makeup of this team needs to change. It's just not working.

slavko
07-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I'd think you'd just have to move one big salary to have the others get the message...

And it's a testament to Paulie since unlike the other guys, he got his big payday and still puts out the most effort and results.

When Playing Out The String Time comes, will PK get swept up in the Not Caring? Or will he still have the Fire In His Belly, like Peavy. This is getting sad and likely to get sadder.

Harry Chappas
07-06-2011, 06:14 PM
I have been very patient this year but I have finally and officially given up on this team as fatally flawed , a team that canít win a very weak division that is there for the taking.
We have nothing to lose. My question is can the Sox make some significant, impactful changes to this team WITHOUT doing a total white flag / rebuilding scenario? Letís face it, we are stuck with Rios, Dunn and those bad contracts so we canít do anything with them but maybe we can make a few moves to wake this team up and possibly contend better now while getting younger too. I would, for example:
1) Fire Walker. Great guy, no, itís not all his fault but none of the Sox hitters appear to know anything about situational hitting. Itís time to get a new voice because no one is hearing Walker.
2) Trade Quentin. I know he is one of two possible All Stars on the team but we have to make some changes and he should be able to bring some young pitching, an athletic outfielder, or a legitimate catching prospect. A team like the Giants comes to mindÖ.
3) Call up Dayan Viciedo put him in RF and play him. You canít have both him and Viciedo in the same outfield, in my opinion, and we canít move Rios. We need a leadoff hitter and JP is been more productive as of late..unless we get someone major league ready in return for CQ.
4) Trade E Jackson for whatever younger talent you can get (see 2 above) and go with a 5 man rotation.
Would it be enough? Ė probably not - but I think some moves have to be made not only now but for the future.

My only issue with the above is trading TCQ for young pitching. Pitching isn't the problem and hasn't been since the early struggles of Thornton. Even today, Jackson pitched well enough where I would hang this loss on our non-existent offense.

We need guys that have a track record of hitting for a high average and driving in runs. I don't care how many HRs they hit. We have too many streaky guys that hover around the .250 mark for my liking (paging Carlos, Beckham, and Rios). It also be nice to have some guys with high baseball IQs that aren't liabilities in the field. Instead, we have guys that seem allergic to the idea of hitting behind runners, bunting, hitting sac flys, working counts, etc.

Otherwise, it's hard to argue with your proposal.

TomBradley72
07-06-2011, 06:29 PM
Everyone needs to just relax....Our hitters will start coming around as soon as the weather warms....Probably in June or July..!!:angry:

By the way, IMO this catastrophe of a team is solely on Ken Williams. It's his team, he acquired the players...!!!

+1.

AND he overpaid for many of them- the 3 year agreement for Teahen before his 1st game with the White Sox.

Picking up 100% of Rios' agreement- if he had waited until the end of the season- the Jays definitely would have eaten a big chunk of that agreement to get rid of him.

Same with Peavy- who was KW competing with to get him?

Same with Dunn- after letting Thome leave (needed about $2M/season)- we waste 4 months on Kotsay + $4M for Manny Ramirez + $14M for Dunn.

KW's hubris and arrogance have caught up with him- he has now graduated from the Jim Hendry School of General Management via Checkbook.

Dan H
07-06-2011, 06:39 PM
The first thing to do at this point is stop with the denial routine. Rongey gave the old party line on the radio that there is no place for Viciedo. Will Viciedo save the 2011 White Sox? Of course not. But, almost no one on offense can claim they should be playing every day. Find a place for this guy to play. I don't care what it is.

In May we were told it was early and so the Sox did nothing. We are almost at the All-Star break and Ozzie says nothing can be done. Well, Ozzie, something can be done. You can be fired. It will give fans an indication that the organization finally realizes something is wrong. This team is awful and will stay awful until people stop thinking like Cub fans and drop the hope springs eternal crap.

JermaineDye05
07-06-2011, 06:47 PM
Greg Walker states that Juan Pierre is a winner. Claiming that the team can win with Juan Pierre and they know it.
:rolling::rolling:

Maybe in 2003.

This staff is seriously more concerned about Juan Pierre's feelings than they are with winning. And this is not an indictment on JP, I just think the quote is interesting given the team's current slump. Quit trying to defend the guy and fix the rest of our hitters.

JB98
07-06-2011, 06:49 PM
Greg Walker states that Juan Pierre is a winner. Claiming that the team can win with Juan Pierre and they know it.
:rolling::rolling:

Maybe in 2003.

This staff is seriously more concerned about Juan Pierre's feelings than they are with winning. And this is not an indictment on JP, I just think the quote is interesting given the team's current slump. Quit trying to defend the guy and fix the rest of our hitters.

As I indicated earlier, this regime spends too much time lashing out at critics and not enough time fixing problems.

guillensdisciple
07-06-2011, 06:54 PM
1-2 in the important 19 game swing.

Am not really watching, but hey repeat story. Apparently I repeat myself on these boards a lot so yep.

One thing, the TWins are going to murder us. We will get swept but we'll find a way to crawl to .500 and everyone will be happy again, negating the fact that we are a horrible baseball team.

EDIT: oh and if the hitting every picks it up the bullpen will fall to close the season. We run in cycles folks.

guillensdisciple
07-06-2011, 06:56 PM
As I indicated earlier, this regime spends too much time lashing out at critics and not enough time fixing problems.

QFT

This frachise has become such a joke it's insane. All it is is a bunch of talk. One very talkative FIERY manager and another FIERY gm giving us the **** the world against us attitude we all want in a winning baseball team. Too bad half of that formula is not happening thus negating anything going on in the franchise.

We are a joke.

Mohoney
07-06-2011, 07:16 PM
Kenny has done squat this season, only DL moves.

Paging our occasionally bold, "all in" GM...

To be honest, I would love it if he fired your idol Ozzie Guillen for starters.

sullythered
07-06-2011, 07:24 PM
we are a horrible baseball team.

Actually, we're almost exactly an average baseball team.

tstrike2000
07-06-2011, 07:30 PM
Greg Walker states that Juan Pierre is a winner. Claiming that the team can win with Juan Pierre and they know it.
:rolling::rolling:

Maybe in 2003.

This staff is seriously more concerned about Juan Pierre's feelings than they are with winning. And this is not an indictment on JP, I just think the quote is interesting given the team's current slump. Quit trying to defend the guy and fix the rest of our hitters.

Greg Walker is long overdue to return to Georgia and go fishing.

kittle42
07-06-2011, 07:31 PM
Actually, we're almost exactly an average baseball team.

And in sports, average really sucks, unless you're a KC or Pittsburgh fan.

guillensdisciple
07-06-2011, 07:31 PM
Actually, we're almost exactly an average baseball team.

Horrible in the fact that we're supposed to be a playoff baseball team. I am not making excuses for this.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
07-06-2011, 07:42 PM
**** this noise.

This team is so mentally ****ed it's not even funny anymore.

JR is enabling all this by refusing to find the line where loyalty ends and what's good for business begins. Ozzie should have been fired after 2009, but he's still here, shoehorning the hot-hitting Adam Dunn in the 3 hole and refusing to allow the FO to call up Viciedo, and I'm sure Ozzie has told them that he "won't be able to find at-bats for him".

Rios is lazy, Dunn is horri-bad, Pierre is coming back down to earth, Quentin has all but disappeared for the last month. Somehow, we're still in it, but I think it's just a sick joke from the baseball gods that we somehow stay in it until the beginning of September, when the Twins crush our chances like an aluminum can en route to their patented 25-5 late-season run.

I love the Sox, but damn, seeing this go down is just killing me.

Lip Man 1
07-06-2011, 07:48 PM
Considering their last three losses have come to stiffs and retreds like Lopez, Paulino and Chen AND they only scored five runs in those three games speaks volumes.

Lip

Procol Harum
07-06-2011, 07:51 PM
To get back to .500 by the All-Star Break the Sox will have to take 3 out of 4 from the Twins. It's real hard to be optimistic about that--treading water with a split would be a moral victory at this point.

On the good side, the Sox have been a great second half team over the last several years...

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2011, 07:53 PM
To be honest, I would love it if he fired your idol Ozzie Guillen for starters.

Ozzie's only half of the problem, Kenny is the other half. His teams have consistently under performed save for one year for ten years now. His only success as a GM has come with Ozzie as his manager.

tsoxman
07-06-2011, 07:54 PM
6/19 - Indians fire their hitting coach... 7/3 - Tigers fire their pitching coach...

7/6 - Sox get only 11 runs in the last 5 games, have 5 regular hitters batting under .260 and yet Greg Walker still has his job.

BTW - I'm not down with the fire Kenny and Ozzie bandwagon, since that likely means a 3-5 year rebuild, and I've been through too many of those...
I would almost take a 5 year plan at this point. Our incompetent GM has screwed this franchise up so badly, I cannot imagine when this team will be even remotely relevant again. In addition, if you consider the young talent that teams like Cleveland and KC have coming up, we are absolutely screwed for the foreseable future.

Noneck
07-06-2011, 07:58 PM
His only success as a GM has come with Ozzie as his manager.


And Reinsdorfs credibility and success came with Williams as GM.

Soxfest
07-06-2011, 08:04 PM
Considering their last three losses have come to stiffs and retreds like Lopez, Paulino and Chen AND they only scored five runs in those three games speaks volumes.

Lip
Since June 2006 you can add 100 other ham and eggars names to the list yet Walker survives I will NEVER understand it!:angry:

Lip Man 1
07-06-2011, 08:04 PM
5187:

I would disagree somewhat. Kenny's teams since 2006 have basically underperformed. From 2001 through 2005, considering injuries ruined both 2001 and 2004, to have a World Series title and no losing seasons in that span is pretty good.

Since 2005, something has gone wrong...call it chemistry, call it karma, call it the field manager or bad deals and signings by the G.M. but something is just not right with this team and this organization.

The million dollar question is what is wrong, why is it wrong and who gets the blame?

I know one thing keeping the status quo despite underachieving and hoping things get better isn't the way to have success in baseball or in a larger sense from the business standpoint of the franchise.

More and more fans are going to start expressing themselves through the pocketbook. Attendance has dropped four consecutive seasons now from the previous one. That also says a ton.

Lip

Nelfox02
07-06-2011, 08:04 PM
I would almost take a 5 year plan at this point. Our incompetent GM has screwed this franchise up so badly, I cannot imagine when this team will be even remotely relevant again. In addition, if you consider the young talent that teams like Cleveland and KC have coming up, we are absolutely screwed for the foreseable future.


I think what bothers me the most about this whole mess is just the absolute lack of any quality young players on the current roster and especially in the minor league system. TCM is solid, but I dont consider him a great player.....Beckham is would be an absolute bust if he did not play a decent 2B, and Morel? well I dont think anyone really expected much from him, he has been solid with the glove, blah at the dish. Not exactly a building block guy. Down on the farm? do we have anyone even worth talking about after Dayan? and is Dayan really all that great? Dont get me wrong I would not mind seeing him come to the big league level and maybe give our offense a boost....but I was not that impressed with him last year. Guy struck out a ton....and from what people are saying his D in the OF is awful....not exactly what I have in mind for a saviour

as a fan of this team, there is just really nothing to look forward too except for more of the same......for years to come.

Tragg
07-06-2011, 08:18 PM
5187:

I would disagree somewhat. Kenny's teams since 2006 have basically underperformed. From 2001 through 2005, considering injuries ruined both 2001 and 2004, to have a World Series title and no losing seasons in that span is pretty good.

Since 2005, something has gone wrong...call it chemistry, call it karma, call it the field manager or bad deals and signings by the G.M. but something is just not right with this team and this organization.


Well, the teams may have underpeformed some (particularly in 2006), but the real problem is that they aren't really good teams. His trades lately have been miserable. Williams is on this endless quest for the "number 1 starter" from Javy to Peavy to Jackson, and none have been particularly stellar. He also overvalues "hard throwers". And we've given up young, cheap major league talent for each.

SI1020
07-06-2011, 08:27 PM
6/19 - Indians fire their hitting coach... 7/3 - Tigers fire their pitching coach...

7/6 - Sox get only 11 runs in the last 5 games, have 5 regular hitters batting under .260 and yet Greg Walker still has his job.

BTW - I'm not down with the fire Kenny and Ozzie bandwagon, since that likely means a 3-5 year rebuild, and I've been through too many of those... That looks like the best case scenario at this point.

thomas35forever
07-06-2011, 09:28 PM
As soon as I heard Stone say the words "soft tosser" in the intro, I knew we were headed for trouble. First time Chen has beaten us in the time he's been in the league? Embarrassing.

I have a 4-game winning streak at Sox games going back to 2009 and have seen 6 wins out of 7 games attended since '08. When I go tomorrow night, I have a good feeling that those are going to be disrupted. Hope I'm wrong, but I can't find any reason to be optimistic at this point.

balke
07-06-2011, 09:39 PM
There's gotta be somethingg the Sox can do. And no Viciedo won't fix this. Jackson + player + Viciedo for a replacement player who costs a lot.

WhiteSox5187
07-06-2011, 10:01 PM
5187:

I would disagree somewhat. Kenny's teams since 2006 have basically underperformed. From 2001 through 2005, considering injuries ruined both 2001 and 2004, to have a World Series title and no losing seasons in that span is pretty good.

Since 2005, something has gone wrong...call it chemistry, call it karma, call it the field manager or bad deals and signings by the G.M. but something is just not right with this team and this organization.

The million dollar question is what is wrong, why is it wrong and who gets the blame?

I know one thing keeping the status quo despite underachieving and hoping things get better isn't the way to have success in baseball or in a larger sense from the business standpoint of the franchise.

More and more fans are going to start expressing themselves through the pocketbook. Attendance has dropped four consecutive seasons now from the previous one. That also says a ton.

Lip

I'll give you the point about injuries in 2001 and 2004, but Kenny is a guy who prior to 2005 did not seem to understand the concept of defense at all. He was quoted in or after 2002 as saying "I thought our offense would make up for our defensive decencies." He also continues to undervalue defense by having thrown the likes of Wilson Betemit and Mark Teahen at third and the rotation of bad defensive center fielders out there. Until this year his MO was just picking up guys at the end of their careers or failed prospects and hoping they could be a sort of magic bullet. I think that his approach as a GM is very responsible for this team's short comings.

LITTLE NELL
07-06-2011, 10:33 PM
When Orlando Cabrerra was with us in 08 he called the Sox out for their non-winning attitude. I'm not sure how many are left from 08, PK, Buerhle, TCQ, TCM, AJ, Danks and Floyd are the ones I can think of. All those guys are damn good players yet Peavy is saying the same thing that OC said in 08. So where is the problem? Is the manager along with his coaches the blame for this attitude or do we have a bunch of players that just look at their career as just a job and if we win fine but I get paid weather we win or lose. All I know is I'm sick of it especially coming home and losing 2 of 3 against KC. Some changes have to be made to shake these guys up.

captain54
07-06-2011, 11:16 PM
Since 2005, something has gone wrong...call it chemistry, call it karma, call it the field manager or bad deals and signings by the G.M. but something is just not right with this team and this organization.

The million dollar question is what is wrong, why is it wrong and who gets the blame?


Lip

Kenny Williams has been quoted as saying that he put the Sox 11' together to win the division over the long haul. He believes in the talent and if they just play to their ability they'll win the Central and beyond.

My question would be, what is it that's lacking in the organization to have all of these players underperforming at one time?

SBSoxFan
07-06-2011, 11:24 PM
I'll give you the point about injuries in 2001 and 2004, but Kenny is a guy who prior to 2005 did not seem to understand the concept of defense at all. He was quoted in or after 2002 as saying "I thought our offense would make up for our defensive decencies." He also continues to undervalue defense by having thrown the likes of Wilson Betemit and Mark Teahen at third and the rotation of bad defensive center fielders out there. Until this year his MO was just picking up guys at the end of their careers or failed prospects and hoping they could be a sort of magic bullet. I think that his approach as a GM is very responsible for this team's short comings.

I believe Kenny has said he built those teams because that's what the then-manager wanted --- you need mashers to win in the A.L.

Tragg
07-06-2011, 11:29 PM
Kenny Williams has been quoted as saying that he put the Sox 11' together to win the division over the long haul. He believes in the talent and if they just play to their ability they'll win the Central and beyond.

My question would be, what is it that's lacking in the organization to have all of these players underperforming at one time?
If you factor in that offense mlb wide is down, the only serious under performer is Dunn.
Rios has had 2 good seasons in his career; Pierre is just in physical decline. Beckham has struggled for 1.5 seasons. Morel - who knows if he's under or over performing.

doublem23
07-06-2011, 11:32 PM
That looks like the best case scenario at this point.

That's being a little dramatic, isn't it? This isn't a team spiraling to 100 losses, they're probably going to win 80-something-ish, this is a team that needs tweaks more than it needs dynamite.

I agree, some new coaching blood would be nice. Just to see if a new message could get through to some guys. The old one obviously is not working.

Frater Perdurabo
07-06-2011, 11:36 PM
Dunn is striking out at a rate slightly higher, but generally consistent, with his career norms. He's also walking at a rate generally in line with his career norms. That means he's putting the ball in play only slightly less than his career norms. That means he's grounding out, lining out and popping out more than any other year.

Beckham came to the Sox as a line drive hitter with a short, compact swing. Now his swing is long and his average is down. Joe Crede had this same problem for years. Rios used to be a line drive hitter. So did Teahen. Not now.

The Sox are last in the league in strikeouts. They also are last in the league in BABIP, and have been since 2003. They make bad contact. This has been a hallmark of this team for years and it is why their offense is so inconsistent.

The position player core has turned over twice since 2005, other than AJ and Paulie, and they are hitting well this year. The only other constant is Greg Walker. I'd be willing to bet that if Walker starts working with him, Morel's swing will get longer and he'll start trying to pull the ball.

A. Cavatica
07-07-2011, 01:27 AM
I'm not down with the fire Kenny and Ozzie bandwagon, since that likely means a 3-5 year rebuild, and I've been through too many of those...

The Sox had a window to win more championships, or at least to be a credible threat in the playoffs each year, and they missed it. The longer Kenny and Ozzie are in charge, the longer the rebuilding cycle is going to be.

In 2006, with a team that had fewer holes than the 2005 team, they had a great duel with the Tigers in the first half. Then the roof fell in. The collapse was Ozzie's fault: for Mackowiak in center, for not getting Brandon McCarthy into the rotation to spell his tired starters, and for not being a steadying influence when the team started to cough up cheap losses.

The 2007 team was Kenny's fault. Instead of addressing the flaws of the 2006 team, he left the roster pretty much alone and acquired a brand new bullpen full of KC rejects. Ozzie didn't help; he made his usual strategic blunders, and he seldom held his players accountable. Also, allegedly, he asked for the kind of team Kenny gave him.

In 2008, the team rebounded on the strength of TCQ's monster year. KW had more money to spend, and the Swisher/Cabrera/Dotel/Linebrink signings were (on balance) good. Swisher was at least better than Erstad. But why Griffey? And why did Ozzie and Walker still have jobs?

In 2009, we gave back all the gains of 2008. Cabrera was gone, Swisher was dealt for nothing of value whatsoever, Quentin and Linebrink imploded. Ozzie gave 255 at-bats to Mark Kotsay and DeWayne Wise. KW's moves (Peavy, Rios) looked like bold gambles but in hindsight look like desperation. More salary, more years, more risk. At least Rios didn't cost any prospects.

In 2010, KW got Uncle Jerry to pony up even more money. This he squandered on Teahen, Pierre, Vizquel, Jones, Ramirez, & Jackson: more desperation, more "big name" players living off their reputations. The veterans couldn't play any more, but Ozzie doesn't bench his veterans: he gave 651 at-bats for Pierre, 327 to Kotsay, 233 to Teahen, 69 to Manny. Rios and Peavy again did nothing. Meanwhile, the prospects KW had quietly been dealing away started to blossom elsewhere.

2011 was the "all in" year. Having bet high and bet wrong, KW went double-or-nothing on Adam Dunn. Dunn, predictably, imploded. Rios imploded. Pierre imploded. Morel and Beckham learned from the veterans, and imploded. Walker proved again that he can't coach hitters, and Ozzie proved again that can't manage his way out of a paper bag.

And so, after many years of the Kenny and Ozzie show, we have an admirable pitching staff and a team of bad hitters who are fundamentally unsound and mentally weak. They have guaranteed contracts and nobody to answer to. If things continue as they are, Kenny will double down again, and start dealing away pitchers -- and we'll be no better than an expansion team.

Crooked Number
07-07-2011, 01:27 AM
Dunn is striking out at a rate slightly higher, but generally consistent, with his career norms. He's also walking at a rate generally in line with his career norms. That means he's putting the ball in play only slightly less than his career norms. That means he's grounding out, lining out and popping out more than any other year.

Beckham came to the Sox as a line drive hitter with a short, compact swing. Now his swing is long and his average is down. Joe Crede had this same problem for years. Rios used to be a line drive hitter. So did Teahen. Not now.

The Sox are last in the league in strikeouts. They also are last in the league in BABIP, and have been since 2003. They make bad contact. This has been a hallmark of this team for years and it is why their offense is so inconsistent.

The position player core has turned over twice since 2005, other than AJ and Paulie, and they are hitting well this year. The only other constant is Greg Walker. I'd be willing to bet that if Walker starts working with him, Morel's swing will get longer and he'll start trying to pull the ball.

This post should be a sticky until changes are made. This is right on.

I will be in right field tomorrow rooting for the Sox, to somehow, someway figure out how to beat not only the Twins, but a divisional opponent. I was at the 4th of July game, and that one turned out ok. If it takes a balk to get a win against the Twinks, i think all of us would take it. Just win. I did not think i would get to this many games this year, but here i am about to go to my seventh. Im 4 and 2 so far, lets start this series off right fellas.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Dunn is striking out at a rate slightly higher, but generally consistent, with his career norms.I have to take issue with that. For his career, including this year, he averages a strikeout every 3.7 plate appearances. This year, he's averaging a strikeout for every 2.7 plate appearances. That's more than slightly higher.

russ99
07-07-2011, 02:25 AM
5187:

I would disagree somewhat. Kenny's teams since 2006 have basically underperformed. From 2001 through 2005, considering injuries ruined both 2001 and 2004, to have a World Series title and no losing seasons in that span is pretty good.

Since 2005, something has gone wrong...call it chemistry, call it karma, call it the field manager or bad deals and signings by the G.M. but something is just not right with this team and this organization.

The million dollar question is what is wrong, why is it wrong and who gets the blame?

I know one thing keeping the status quo despite underachieving and hoping things get better isn't the way to have success in baseball or in a larger sense from the business standpoint of the franchise.

More and more fans are going to start expressing themselves through the pocketbook. Attendance has dropped four consecutive seasons now from the previous one. That also says a ton.

Lip

This year is a little different. From 2007-2010 Kenny was working with payroll restraints and an owner who believes in drafting slot and is pretty low league-wide in investing in minor league player development.

Each year during that span at least one glaring hole in the lineup, rotation and pen was strung together with low-talent prospects, has-beens, cheap reclamation projects and chicken wire in order to keep on budget.

This year, Kenny gambled the pot on Dunn and it has not paid off. Rios' regression hasn't helped things either.

I wonder if that's why Kenny has been so quiet this year. It's almost like he's backed himself into a corner and he can't do anything but watch how it plays out.

BringHomeDaBacon
07-07-2011, 07:57 AM
The Sox had a window to win more championships, or at least to be a credible threat in the playoffs each year, and they missed it. The longer Kenny and Ozzie are in charge, the longer the rebuilding cycle is going to be.

In 2006, with a team that had fewer holes than the 2005 team, they had a great duel with the Tigers in the first half. Then the roof fell in. The collapse was Ozzie's fault: for Mackowiak in center, for not getting Brandon McCarthy into the rotation to spell his tired starters, and for not being a steadying influence when the team started to cough up cheap losses.

The 2007 team was Kenny's fault. Instead of addressing the flaws of the 2006 team, he left the roster pretty much alone and acquired a brand new bullpen full of KC rejects. Ozzie didn't help; he made his usual strategic blunders, and he seldom held his players accountable. Also, allegedly, he asked for the kind of team Kenny gave him.

In 2008, the team rebounded on the strength of TCQ's monster year. KW had more money to spend, and the Swisher/Cabrera/Dotel/Linebrink signings were (on balance) good. Swisher was at least better than Erstad. But why Griffey? And why did Ozzie and Walker still have jobs?

In 2009, we gave back all the gains of 2008. Cabrera was gone, Swisher was dealt for nothing of value whatsoever, Quentin and Linebrink imploded. Ozzie gave 255 at-bats to Mark Kotsay and DeWayne Wise. KW's moves (Peavy, Rios) looked like bold gambles but in hindsight look like desperation. More salary, more years, more risk. At least Rios didn't cost any prospects.

In 2010, KW got Uncle Jerry to pony up even more money. This he squandered on Teahen, Pierre, Vizquel, Jones, Ramirez, & Jackson: more desperation, more "big name" players living off their reputations. The veterans couldn't play any more, but Ozzie doesn't bench his veterans: he gave 651 at-bats for Pierre, 327 to Kotsay, 233 to Teahen, 69 to Manny. Rios and Peavy again did nothing. Meanwhile, the prospects KW had quietly been dealing away started to blossom elsewhere.

2011 was the "all in" year. Having bet high and bet wrong, KW went double-or-nothing on Adam Dunn. Dunn, predictably, imploded. Rios imploded. Pierre imploded. Morel and Beckham learned from the veterans, and imploded. Walker proved again that he can't coach hitters, and Ozzie proved again that can't manage his way out of a paper bag.

And so, after many years of the Kenny and Ozzie show, we have an admirable pitching staff and a team of bad hitters who are fundamentally unsound and mentally weak. They have guaranteed contracts and nobody to answer to. If things continue as they are, Kenny will double down again, and start dealing away pitchers -- and we'll be no better than an expansion team.

A nicely written and accurate account. Well done sir, well done.

SI1020
07-07-2011, 08:38 AM
A nicely written and accurate account. Well done sir, well done. I concur. A Cavatica did very well on that post.

hawkjt
07-07-2011, 09:20 AM
Dunn is striking out at a rate slightly higher, but generally consistent, with his career norms. He's also walking at a rate generally in line with his career norms. That means he's putting the ball in play only slightly less than his career norms. That means he's grounding out, lining out and popping out more than any other year.

Beckham came to the Sox as a line drive hitter with a short, compact swing. Now his swing is long and his average is down. Joe Crede had this same problem for years. Rios used to be a line drive hitter. So did Teahen. Not now.

The Sox are last in the league in strikeouts. They also are last in the league in BABIP, and have been since 2003. They make bad contact. This has been a hallmark of this team for years and it is why their offense is so inconsistent.

The position player core has turned over twice since 2005, other than AJ and Paulie, and they are hitting well this year. The only other constant is Greg Walker. I'd be willing to bet that if Walker starts working with him, Morel's swing will get longer and he'll start trying to pull the ball.


This distills the offensive woes down to its essence.
It is very weird. If they were swinging for the fences exclusively,you would think they would strike out more often,but they just do not square it up very often. I watch Bautista of the Jays,and he seems to square up most of the balls he hits. Beyond PK, Sox just do not do this often enough.

SI1020
07-07-2011, 09:24 AM
That's being a little dramatic, isn't it? This isn't a team spiraling to 100 losses, they're probably going to win 80-something-ish, this is a team that needs tweaks more than it needs dynamite.

I agree, some new coaching blood would be nice. Just to see if a new message could get through to some guys. The old one obviously is not working. You think so? I hope so.

russ99
07-07-2011, 09:46 AM
I concur. A Cavatica did very well on that post.

Sorry, it's not. That's the same vitriol we've seen for years about how Ozzie's "wrongful" use of Brian Anderson cost us 2006 through 2009, that Ozzie's a bad manager for choosing veterans over failed prospects and speed /run manufacturing over waiting on the 3 run homer, and how we should have kept all those prospects when only one or two of them is even close to an all star level 6 years down the road.

Fine, if you want a head in the sand GM, an quiet by-the-book manager and real mediocrity, then you may get one, along with win levels akin to the Pirates and Royals.

I prefer Kenny and Ozzie, and at least a plan to contend every year, even if those plans sometimes don't go as expected.

Seems to me that some people want a Yankees or Red Sox playoff run from this club, but the truth of the matter is we are not those teams.

The way people complain around here you'd think we're 20 games under .500 and not 2 with 74 games to play. Baseball is unpredictable.

doublem23
07-07-2011, 09:49 AM
You think so? I hope so.

Yes, they're just an average team. 76-84 wins (80-ish). I don't see how anyone can think anything different of this team.

Tragg
07-07-2011, 10:05 AM
Sorry, it's not. That's the same vitriol we've seen for years about how Ozzie's "wrongful" use of Brian Anderson cost us 2006 through 2009, that Ozzie's a bad manager for choosing veterans over failed prospects and speed /run manufacturing over waiting on the 3 run homer, and how we should have kept all those prospects when only one or two of them is even close to an all star level 6 years down the road.

Fine, if you want a head in the sand GM, an quiet by-the-book manager and real mediocrity, then you may get one, along with win levels akin to the Pirates and Royals.

I prefer Kenny and Ozzie, and at least a plan to contend every year, even if those plans sometimes don't go as expected.

Seems to me that some people want a Yankees or Red Sox playoff run from this club, but the truth of the matter is we are not those teams.

The way people complain around here you'd think we're 20 games under .500 and not 2 with 74 games to play. Baseball is unpredictable.
It was an excellent post. Prospects have value in themselves as prospects - of course only a few turn up big....but in return for giving up the possible pot of gold, you're supposed to get sure things. Our "sure things" are mediocre, and some at massive salaries.
As for the Anderson stuff, you forgot the other side of the equation: the horrific Wise, Owens and Erstad; and Kotsay (for whom we dumped Thome).
Name a good trade since the Quentin trade.

tstrike2000
07-07-2011, 10:11 AM
In 2010, KW got Uncle Jerry to pony up even more money. This he squandered on Teahen, Pierre, Vizquel, Jones, Ramirez, & Jackson: more desperation, more "big name" players living off their reputations. The veterans couldn't play any more, but Ozzie doesn't bench his veterans: he gave 651 at-bats for Pierre, 327 to Kotsay, 233 to Teahen, 69 to Manny. Rios and Peavy again did nothing. Meanwhile, the prospects KW had quietly been dealing away started to blossom elsewhere.

I also agree with your assessments through the years. The only difference I think is Rios had a nice year last year, but otherwise, you're right, he has been terrible.

GoSox2K3
07-07-2011, 10:23 AM
The Sox had a window to win more championships, or at least to be a credible threat in the playoffs each year, and they missed it. The longer Kenny and Ozzie are in charge, the longer the rebuilding cycle is going to be.

In 2006, with a team that had fewer holes than the 2005 team, they had a great duel with the Tigers in the first half. Then the roof fell in. The collapse was Ozzie's fault: for Mackowiak in center, for not getting Brandon McCarthy into the rotation to spell his tired starters, and for not being a steadying influence when the team started to cough up cheap losses.

The 2007 team was Kenny's fault. Instead of addressing the flaws of the 2006 team, he left the roster pretty much alone and acquired a brand new bullpen full of KC rejects. Ozzie didn't help; he made his usual strategic blunders, and he seldom held his players accountable. Also, allegedly, he asked for the kind of team Kenny gave him.

In 2008, the team rebounded on the strength of TCQ's monster year. KW had more money to spend, and the Swisher/Cabrera/Dotel/Linebrink signings were (on balance) good. Swisher was at least better than Erstad. But why Griffey? And why did Ozzie and Walker still have jobs?

In 2009, we gave back all the gains of 2008. Cabrera was gone, Swisher was dealt for nothing of value whatsoever, Quentin and Linebrink imploded. Ozzie gave 255 at-bats to Mark Kotsay and DeWayne Wise. KW's moves (Peavy, Rios) looked like bold gambles but in hindsight look like desperation. More salary, more years, more risk. At least Rios didn't cost any prospects.

In 2010, KW got Uncle Jerry to pony up even more money. This he squandered on Teahen, Pierre, Vizquel, Jones, Ramirez, & Jackson: more desperation, more "big name" players living off their reputations. The veterans couldn't play any more, but Ozzie doesn't bench his veterans: he gave 651 at-bats for Pierre, 327 to Kotsay, 233 to Teahen, 69 to Manny. Rios and Peavy again did nothing. Meanwhile, the prospects KW had quietly been dealing away started to blossom elsewhere.

2011 was the "all in" year. Having bet high and bet wrong, KW went double-or-nothing on Adam Dunn. Dunn, predictably, imploded. Rios imploded. Pierre imploded. Morel and Beckham learned from the veterans, and imploded. Walker proved again that he can't coach hitters, and Ozzie proved again that can't manage his way out of a paper bag.

And so, after many years of the Kenny and Ozzie show, we have an admirable pitching staff and a team of bad hitters who are fundamentally unsound and mentally weak. They have guaranteed contracts and nobody to answer to. If things continue as they are, Kenny will double down again, and start dealing away pitchers -- and we'll be no better than an expansion team.

Excellent post.

At this point, I'm fed up with hearing that it's not Kenny, Ozzie, or Walker's fault. Until there is accountability somewhere in management, I really don't expect things to change with this organization.

tstrike2000
07-07-2011, 10:28 AM
Sorry, it's not. That's the same vitriol we've seen for years about how Ozzie's "wrongful" use of Brian Anderson cost us 2006 through 2009, that Ozzie's a bad manager for choosing veterans over failed prospects and speed /run manufacturing over waiting on the 3 run homer, and how we should have kept all those prospects when only one or two of them is even close to an all star level 6 years down the road.

Fine, if you want a head in the sand GM, an quiet by-the-book manager and real mediocrity, then you may get one, along with win levels akin to the Pirates and Royals.

I prefer Kenny and Ozzie, and at least a plan to contend every year, even if those plans sometimes don't go as expected.

Seems to me that some people want a Yankees or Red Sox playoff run from this club, but the truth of the matter is we are not those teams.

The way people complain around here you'd think we're 20 games under .500 and not 2 with 74 games to play. Baseball is unpredictable.

Obviously, you don't feel the coaching staff is a problem. Even though I'm one of those that doesn't agree, I respect your opinion. When things aren't going well, the manager is usually the first to get blamed.

However, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Nobody will say we want a "head in the sand" GM. It isn't a two way street where there's either an aggressive, go all-out GM or a GM that doesn't make moves. Being aggressive in the market is fine, but we keep going after a lot of the same type of "past their prime" veterans at the expense of another prospect.

That's not to say Kenny hasn't assembled a talented team, he has. Despite the Sox flaws, we have the best pitching staff in the division and an offense that should be doing a lot better than it has, especially in the area of scoring runs more consistently. I think that comes down to coaching and managing. I just think many excellent points have been made over the years about the problems of Ozzie and Greg Walker through the years. I'm just curious what you think Ozzie and Greg Walker have done good to warrant staying here. I'm not one of those haters, I just don't see what the coaching staff outside of Cooper has done well.

The Immigrant
07-07-2011, 10:28 AM
I concur. A Cavatica did very well on that post.

Agreed, and I need a strong drink after reading it. :(:

The Immigrant
07-07-2011, 10:29 AM
Yes, they're just an average team. 76-84 wins (80-ish). I don't see how anyone can think anything different of this team.

It's a mediocre team doing mediocre things. That might as well be the marketing slogan for 2012.

russ99
07-07-2011, 11:13 AM
Obviously, you don't feel the coaching staff is a problem. Even though I'm one of those that doesn't agree, I respect your opinion. When things aren't going well, the manager is usually the first to get blamed.

However, it's not an all or nothing proposition. Nobody will say we want a "head in the sand" GM. It isn't a two way street where there's either an aggressive, go all-out GM or a GM that doesn't make moves. Being aggressive in the market is fine, but we keep going after a lot of the same type of "past their prime" veterans at the expense of another prospect.

That's not to say Kenny hasn't assembled a talented team, he has. Despite the Sox flaws, we have the best pitching staff in the division and an offense that should be doing a lot better than it has, especially in the area of scoring runs more consistently. I think that comes down to coaching and managing. I just think many excellent points have been made over the years about the problems of Ozzie and Greg Walker through the years. I'm just curious what you think Ozzie and Greg Walker have done good to warrant staying here. I'm not one of those haters, I just don't see what the coaching staff outside of Cooper has done well.

I'm firmly on the fire Walker bandwagon.

Personally I think it would be a waste to throw Ozzie away before changing up the staff (especially removing someone who was there when he was hired and has vocally wanted to get rid of in the past) and getting another hitting approach and a voice in the clubhouse that would challenge him and get him out of his rut.

While I seriously doubt he'd give up his lifestyle to coach full-time, IMO Frank Thomas would be the perfect candidate for the job.

Lip Man 1
07-07-2011, 11:54 AM
The issue though is who changes the coaching staff?

Kenny has told the media, all coaching decisions are made by Ozzie. Ozzie has said that his staff does a good job and there's no reason to get rid of any of them in his opinion.

Lip

PeteWard
07-07-2011, 01:30 PM
The issue though is who changes the coaching staff?

Kenny has told the media, all coaching decisions are made by Ozzie. Ozzie has said that his staff does a good job and there's no reason to get rid of any of them in his opinion.

Lip

I am not saying it's going to happen but barring an uprising against the Twins the like of which we have not seen all year, it would not surprise me if Walker gets the boot during the break. Simply because it will have to be seen that something -- anything -- is being done. I think there is a decent chance of it happening.

guillensdisciple
07-07-2011, 01:58 PM
I am not saying it's going to happen but barring an uprising against the Twins the like of which we have not seen all year, it would not surprise me if Walker gets the boot during the break. Simply because it will have to be seen that something -- anything -- is being done. I think there is a decent chance of it happening.

Won't change much, but this entire thing has to be disbanded if we end up under .500 after this 19 game swing.

SI1020
07-07-2011, 08:49 PM
Yes, they're just an average team. 76-84 wins (80-ish). I don't see how anyone can think anything different of this team. Oh I do.

Nellie_Fox
07-08-2011, 01:04 AM
...it would not surprise me if Walker gets the boot during the break. Simply because it will have to be seen that something -- anything -- is being done. I think there is a decent chance of it happening.It would surprise the hell out of me.