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View Full Version : *Official* 7/1 I Juan-a beat the Cubs postgame winner!!!


spawn
07-01-2011, 05:10 PM
Discuss!

Soxfest
07-01-2011, 05:11 PM
Sox win let's get to .500 Saturday!:D:

soltrain21
07-01-2011, 05:11 PM
Pierre starting to heat up. Santos is freak nasty.

Keep on keeping on.

veeter
07-01-2011, 05:11 PM
Hey one under .500...nice!!!

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:11 PM
Two games in a row where Juan is the hero...I love it...!!!:bandance:

rjdmichjr
07-01-2011, 05:12 PM
That away boys...could we be starting a nice streak,,,

Sox
07-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Woo Hoo!!! Sox victory!!!! Santos and Crain were awesome out the pen!!!!

russ99
07-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Super-classy interview after the game too. Keep it up, Juan!

Let's get them tomorrow and get to .500!

LITTLE NELL
07-01-2011, 05:14 PM
C'mon boys, 2 more wins against the Flubs and we are over .500.

sunofgold
07-01-2011, 05:14 PM
Wait didn't I just post this. Anyways, Pierre is da man for two games in a row. He has looked like an All-Star the last two games. Clutch hitter. They used to keep a stat called Game Winning RBI (GWRBI). Pierre has to have at least 40 of those by now. Well, at least 2. lol! Go Juan Pierre!

GlassSox
07-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Another good day for Juan and what more can be said about the bull pen :D: :gulp:

TheOldRoman
07-01-2011, 05:15 PM
That away boys...could we be starting a nice streak,,,:?:

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:15 PM
Super-classy interview after the game too. Keep it up, Juan!

Let's get them tomorrow and get to .500!
Yep. He gave props to the bullpen. You don't have to like his play on the field, but he's still a classy individual.

34rancher
07-01-2011, 05:16 PM
Juan has done a nice job of staying even keeled. He's been a jolt the last couple days.
Also, phenomenal job by the pen the last week.

WSox597
07-01-2011, 05:17 PM
Good game to win. Great to see Juan Pierre playing well.

I questioned inserting Dunn as a PH, but it worked out pretty well when Pierre tripled him in. Dunn does have excellent numbers against the Cubs lifetime, but when you're batting .171 you're going to get questioned. All's well that ends well.

Keep it up, guys. Beat these guys and go over .500.

Ex-Chicagoan
07-01-2011, 05:17 PM
Win tomorrow and hoist that cup!

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:19 PM
We would win 120 games a season if we were in this clown league.

PeteWard
07-01-2011, 05:20 PM
I love the fact that Crain, once, and Santos, twice, went old school and for the throat by throwing 0-2 pitches in the strike zone to get the K. Obviously you don't do that every time but I like to see it more often.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:20 PM
Win tomorrow and hoist that cup!
Juan took the Cup to the Clubhouse. How have they won it? There's still a chance to tie, and when that happens doesn't the team that won it last win the cup?

soxfan1965
07-01-2011, 05:20 PM
Rios, Dunn, Pierre involved with the winning run? That's baseball for you, great team win!

PeteWard
07-01-2011, 05:22 PM
Juan took the Cup to the Clubhouse. How have they won it? There's still a chance to tie, and when that happens doesn't the team that won it last win the cup?

Sox won it last.

PalehosePlanet
07-01-2011, 05:22 PM
Two wins in a row where we trailed by 2 or more entering the 7th and came up with late rallies to win. Hopefully the offense gains confidence from the comebacks.

Awesome job by the pen again. Love Crain and Sergio in the 8th and 9th.

34rancher
07-01-2011, 05:23 PM
Juan took the Cup to the Clubhouse. How have they won it? There's still a chance to tie, and when that happens doesn't the team that won it last win the cup?

I would think it would be first team to 3 wins, but let's be first to 5 now.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:24 PM
Juan took the Cup to the Clubhouse. How have they won it? There's still a chance to tie, and when that happens doesn't the team that won it last win the cup?

It's like the Stanley Cup, everyone gets a day with it. I'm guessing Juan preferred to use the Crosstown Cup over the washroom facilities at Wrigley.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:24 PM
Sox won it last.
I meant won the last game of the series...or is it the team that won the cup last? If it's the latter, then that makes sense....I guess.

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:24 PM
Yep. He gave props to the bullpen. You don't have to like his play on the field, but he's still a classy individual.


Finally something nice is written about Pierre...Kudos..!!:smile:

sunofgold
07-01-2011, 05:24 PM
Cubs are forfeiting the next two games! They give up. We are a game over .500!

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:25 PM
It's like the Stanley Cup, everyone gets a day with it. I'm guessing Juan preferred to use the Crosstown Cup over the washroom facilities at Wrigley.
So would I.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:25 PM
I would think it would be first team to 3 wins, but let's be first to 5 now.

No the tiebreaker in a 3-3 year is the team that wins the last game wins the Cup. This virtually guarantees the last game will "mean something*." Since they went to the home-and-home series, I want to say that it's been 3-2 one way or the other at least 75% of the time entering the final game.

*As much as the BP Crosstown Cup can mean

soxnut1018
07-01-2011, 05:26 PM
Who cares about the rest of the season? We HAVE THE CUP!!! :bandance:
Repeats are so rare in sports, yet the Sox have done it. This might be my proudest moment as a Sox fan.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:26 PM
Finally something nice is written about Pierre...Kudos..!!:smile:
I don't hate or despise him like others here. :wink:

LITTLE NELL
07-01-2011, 05:27 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG/600px-Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG)

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:27 PM
I don't hate or despise him like others here. :wink:

I don't think anybody hates Juan, I think that we hate that Juan is shoehorned into leading off everyday no matter how much evidence to suggest that's not best for the team builds.

But if he wants to hit 2-run triples all year long, I'll just have to find a way to deal with that.

Brian26
07-01-2011, 05:29 PM
No the tiebreaker in a 3-3 year is the team that wins the last game wins the Cup. This virtually guarantees the last game will "mean something*." Since they went to the home-and-home series, I want to say that it's been 3-2 one way or the other at least 75% of the time entering the final game.

*As much as the BP Crosstown Cup can mean

That's how I interpreted the rule as well, but there's been some hints that this rule was only in place for the first year, and now the team who at least wins three games the following season guarantees a tie and keeps the Cup. Did someone say they saw Pierre holding the Cup after today's game?

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:29 PM
I don't think anybody hates Juan, I think that we hate that Juan is shoehorned into leading off everyday no matter how much evidence to suggest that's not best for the team builds.

But if he wants to hit 2-run triples all year long, I'll just have to find a way to deal with that.


I don't think you could give him his props if he won us the pennant ..??

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:31 PM
That's how I interpreted the rule as well, but there's been some hints that this rule was only in place for the first year, and now the team who at least wins three games the following season guarantees a tie and keeps the Cup. Did someone say they saw Pierre holding the Cup after today's game?
Yeah, he was holding it during his interview, and he asked if that was ok, and apparently it was.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't think you could give him his props if he won us the pennant ..??

I don't know what the question is? But no, unless Juan turns around and has a scorching 2nd half, he will be on the long laundry list of players on this team that the Sox are winning in spite of.

PeteWard
07-01-2011, 05:32 PM
We would win 120 games a season if we were in this clown league.

The Sox have played no first place NL teams and only one second place NL team. I don't think this year is a good sample. I would have hated, for example, to see our bats go against Philly, ATL or SF.

TDog
07-01-2011, 05:32 PM
I don't care if Juan Pierre sucks if he wins games with his bat and doesn't lose them with his glove.

This is the second game in a row that the White Sox have come from behind down 4-2 after six to win 6-4. If the Sox had lost two straight games in this fashion, this forum would be in collective mourning.

Since the tough loss in Denver, the Sox have been playing never-give-up baseball. It's only three games. Some will say it is only against the National League. But the Rockies at home are a strong offensive group, and the Cubs have won their last two with game-ending hits against a team with great pitching.

I was a bit concerned that the Sox only had a two-run lead going into the ninth. Not that I lacked confidence in Santos. After taking the lead, the Sox failed twice to get a runner home from third with less than two outs. They got it done in the first inning and got it done the last two games in Denver. And I was hoping the Sox would get to Wells sooner. The Cubs bullpen pitched 12 innings Thursday. At one point the Cubs bullpen went 10.1 innings without giving up a hit. The Cubs bullpen has had some success, but it has been worked hard. Maybe the Cubs went too long with Wells for that reason.

But the White Sox won, so there is nothing to be upset about.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:33 PM
I don't think anybody hates Juan, I think that we hate that Juan is shoehorned into leading off everyday no matter how much evidence to suggest that's not best for the team builds.

With the amount of venom spewed his way during game threads, I just don't buy it.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:33 PM
The Sox have played no first place NL teams and only one second place NL team. I don't think this year is a good sample. I would have hated, for example, to see our so-far sleepy bats go aginast Philly, ATL or SF.

The National League ****ing sucks.

Lip Man 1
07-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Like last week, no matter how good, bad or mediocre the Sox season is, it's always nice to beat these clowns.

5th games this year the Sox won when trailing going into the 7th inning or later. (They've lost eight where they had a lead going into the 7th inning or later...)

First time in the last six series where they won the first game in it.

Haven't been one under .500 since April 17th.

Let's get to .500 and see what happens...maybe that will be the spark they need to shake off the doldrums.

Lip

sunofgold
07-01-2011, 05:33 PM
Juan won the Crosstown Classic MVP Trophy? If he did, congrats to JP. Lets win tomorrow and take the series. Can Juan be the hero 3 games in a row?

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:36 PM
I don't know what the question is? But no, unless Juan turns around and has a scorching 2nd half, he will be on the long laundry list of players on this team that the Sox are winning in spite of.

Not a question, more of a comment, but hey, it isn't worth debating anymore......Just my thoughts and I'm moving on..!!

Way to go Juan..!!

doublem23
07-01-2011, 05:36 PM
With the amount of venom spewed his way during game threads, I just don't buy it.

Juan is a bad player, no doubt, so that makes him an easy target, but the underlying reason, I am convinced, that people are so upset with him is because Ozzie's unbelievably rigid philosophy of baseball which mandates you have a speedy slap hitter at the top of your lineup NO MATTER WHAT. NO MATTER WHAT, even if the guy doesn't hit any more, isn't speedy, and doesn't field his position particularly well, he has to bat #1 every day. That's just how baseball is supposed to work.

I think most everyone wants Juan to succeed, I think we're all just intelligent enough to realize that at this state of his career, Pierre should not be playing everyday and especially not playing everyday where he is guaranteed to get the most plate appearances on the team.

October26
07-01-2011, 05:36 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG/600px-Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Cubs_L_flag_070602.JPG)

AWESOME!

Sox beat Cubs! Oh yeah! :bandance:

sox1970
07-01-2011, 05:36 PM
The National League ****ing sucks.

You may hate the style of play, the pitchers hitting...whatever.

The AL leads 108-104 this year in interleague. They closed the gap this year.

Lip Man 1
07-01-2011, 05:37 PM
Double's explanation of Pierre and the fans I think hits it right on the head.

Lip

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:37 PM
Like last week, no matter how good, bad or mediocre the Sox season is, it's always nice to beat these clowns.

5th games this year the Sox won when trailing going into the 7th inning or later. (They've lost eight where they had a lead going into the 7th inning or later...)

First time in the last six series where they won the first game in it.

Haven't been one under .500 since April 17th.

Let's get to .500 and see what happens...maybe that will be the spark they need to shake off the doldrums.

Lip

Hopefully this is the kick-start they need..!!

voodoochile
07-01-2011, 05:39 PM
3 in a row for Juan, 3 in a row for the Sox. Actually I credit Ozzie for blowing his stack again on Monday. He's such a master of motivation... :whistle:

Most excellent win and another fine outing by the bullpen. That Bruney guy does not suck nearly as much as some have suggested and that third strike on Pena to end the 8th by Crain was just flat nasty.

1 game under :o: 3.5 games back (go you Reds and Giants!)

:soxwin:

:)

:supernana:

ChiSoxGal85
07-01-2011, 05:40 PM
Nice to see Juan heating up, as Paulie and TCQ have cooled down, hopefully temporarily.

I was a little frustrated mid-game (4th-5th-6th thereabouts), especially with that 3-pitch inning. :rolleyes: The Sox picked it up later, though.

Sergio is awesome.

One more to .500...let's do it tomorrow.

PeteWard
07-01-2011, 05:41 PM
You may hate the style of play, the pitchers hitting...whatever.

The AL leads 108-104 this year in interleague. They closed the gap this year.

And won the WS last year. I don't think the NL is better, I just contend that the Sox have not seen any of their best teams.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:41 PM
Juan is a bad player, no doubt, so that makes him an easy target, but the underlying reason, I am convinced, that people are so upset with him is because Ozzie's unbelievably rigid philosophy of baseball which mandates you have a speedy slap hitter at the top of your lineup NO MATTER WHAT. NO MATTER WHAT, even if the guy doesn't hit any more, isn't speedy, and doesn't field his position particularly well, he has to bat #1 every day. That's just how baseball is supposed to work.

I think most everyone wants Juan to succeed, I think we're all just intelligent enough to realize that at this state of his career, Pierre should not be playing everyday and especially not playing everyday where he is guaranteed to get the most plate appearances on the team.
We'll just have to agree to disagree. People don't like him being in the lineup, and they take their agression out on him in the game threads directly, not Ozzie. Even though there are others in the lineup that haven't come close to justifying their consistent place in the lineup, none of them have taken as much heat as Pierre.

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:42 PM
3 in a row for Juan, 3 in a row for the Sox. Actually I credit Ozzie for blowing his stack again on Monday. He's such a master of motivation... :whistle:

Most excellent win and another fine outing by the bullpen. That Bruney guy does not suck nearly as much as some have suggested and that third strike on Pena to end the 8th by Crain was just flat nasty.

1 game under :o: 3.5 games back (go you Reds and Giants!)

:soxwin:

:)

:supernana:

This brings up another point...I don't want Pena to return off the DL...Keep Bruney here instead...He seems to have much better control..!!

sunofgold
07-01-2011, 05:43 PM
Bruney is definitely better than Pena. Glad that we signed him to a minor league contract and gave him a chance. Bullpen seems decent now with Santos and two lefties (Thornton/Sale) and two righties (Crain/Bruney).

Hopefully Ohman doesn't get into the game too much. lol.

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:43 PM
This brings up another point...I don't want Pena to return off the DL...Keep Bruney here instead...He seems to have much better control..!!
He also seems to be able to get batters out consistently.

PeteWard
07-01-2011, 05:44 PM
Nice to see Juan heating up, as Paulie and TCQ have cooled down, hopefully temporarily.

I was a little frustrated mid-game (4th-5th-6th thereabouts), especially with that 3-pitch inning. :rolleyes: The Sox picked it up later, though.

Sergio is awesome.

One more to .500...let's do it tomorrow.


21 pitches in those three innings. :o: Sox still have big adjustments to make, but I feel a sweep.

Crestani
07-01-2011, 05:44 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. People don't like him being in the lineup, and they take their agression out on him in the game threads directly, not Ozzie. Even though there are others in the lineup that haven't come close to justifying their consistent place in the lineup, none of them have taken as much heat as Pierre.

Your right, but your beating a dead horse on this board..Best to let it go..!!

spawn
07-01-2011, 05:45 PM
Your right, but your beating a dead horse on this board..Best to let it go..!!
Agreed. That was my last post on the subject.....today.:gulp:

guillensdisciple
07-01-2011, 05:46 PM
I am going to look ahead because the Cubs suck and if we don't at least win another game then we definitely should not be winning any divisions.

We have a dreadful record against our division, and the only way we weill win it is if that improves. Next week is pivotal.

We must be over .500 before the all star break.

Lip Man 1
07-01-2011, 05:51 PM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/chi-this-is-a-recording-guillen-repeats-status-of-viciedo-faith-in-pierre-20110701,0,6597793.story

Lip

LITTLE NELL
07-01-2011, 05:51 PM
I am going to look ahead because the Cubs suck and if we don't at least win another game then we definitely should not be winning any divisions.

We have a dreadful record against our division, and the only way we weill win it is if that improves. Next week is pivotal.

We must be over .500 before the all star break.

The worst we should be is 46-46 at the break, thats splitting the next 2 with the Flubs and going 4-3 on the homestand.
Best case, sweep the Cubs and go 5-2 on the homestand for 48-44.

WhiteSox5187
07-01-2011, 05:56 PM
Let's take the next two!

Zakath
07-01-2011, 06:02 PM
Two wins in a row where we trailed by 2 or more entering the 7th and came up with late rallies to win. Hopefully the offense gains confidence from the comebacks.


Big key. This team had not been known for being able to come back. 5 runs from the 7th on yesterday, 4 today.

It's hilarious to watch the "here we go again" crowd in the game threads. Yeah, we're not playing great, but Jesus, people, lay off the massive negativity. Try to pretend to be optimistic. We went down 3-2 and you thought the game was over.


Awesome job by the pen again. Love Crain and Sergio in the 8th and 9th.

Our pitching staff, by and large, has put us into position to win for a while. We've only given up more than 4 runs 5 times since June 1 (26 games), and only twice since June 11 (17 games).

Jackson wasn't great today, and hasn't been for a while, but he didn't lose the game for us on the mound. He kept us in it, and only had the one big mistake to Ramirez in the sixth in his final three innings. Our offense finally woke up, and while people lamented the 9 outs in a row that Wells recorded, it's better to put hits together and put up crooked numbers than it is to scatter them all over the place. We've finally started to put hits together, something we're desperately going to need with 55 of our last 77 against the Central.

SoxSpeed22
07-01-2011, 06:02 PM
What a coincidence, once the Sox stopped swinging early in the count at those breaking balls, they started hitting Wells. Nice job by Jackson rebounding from a few bad innings. He really needs a slow pitch though...

FielderJones
07-01-2011, 06:03 PM
Your right, but your beating a dead horse on this board..Best to let it go..!!

Agreed. That was my last post on the subject.....today.:gulp:

Until Pierre cools down, the daily bashing of him looks more and more clueless day by day.

Zakath
07-01-2011, 06:08 PM
Bruney is definitely better than Pena. Glad that we signed him to a minor league contract and gave him a chance. Bullpen seems decent now with Santos and two lefties (Thornton/Sale) and two righties (Crain/Bruney).

Hopefully Ohman doesn't get into the game too much. lol.

Take Ohman's first two appearances out, and his ERA is a very respectable 2.66 with a 1.23 WHIP.

The only earned run he's given up in the past three weeks was the bloop single to center that Lillibridge didn't get to fast enough in Colorado.

Nelfox02
07-01-2011, 06:14 PM
boy....talk about about runs coming out of nowhere....offense was only making Wells throw 5 pitch innings and then AJ gets the little single and BAM we are tied

I was a bit surprised that Quade left Wells in after Rios got that hit....but it worked out with the walk to Dunn and then of all people Lil Juan again with a bit hit to knock in go ahead runs.

There havre not been enough of those fun feel good moments in this season---but the shot of TCM fanning the towel on an exhausted Dunn after his race home....awesome

great win Sox! thanks for keeping feel good Friday vibes going to start this holiday weekend.

now AT LEAST take this series

JB98
07-01-2011, 06:19 PM
Until Pierre cools down, the daily bashing of him looks more and more clueless day by day.

I still don't think he should be an everyday leadoff hitter at this stage of his career. I'm not a windsock, and I don't sway in the wind. It's going to take more than this for my opinion to change. That said, Juan has played exceptionally well on this road trip. Good for him, good for the Sox and good for us.

The Sox bullpen is really looking good, especially Santos and Crain. I thought Crain had the big inning today, facing the handful of good hitters the Cubs have. The game was effectively over when Crain struck out Pena with a man on in the eighth, because the bottom of the Cubbie order wasn't going to do anything against Santos in the ninth. Sergio made those guys look like the bums they are.

It sure is nice to have a closer who comes right at people, after what we had to suffer through last season. The big test for Serge will be how he holds up the second half of the year.

kevingrt
07-01-2011, 06:20 PM
What a coincidence, once the Sox stopped swinging early in the count at those breaking balls, they started hitting Wells. Nice job by Jackson rebounding from a few bad innings. He really needs a slow pitch though...

Yeah our approach looked horrendous from the second through sixth innings. Then we started waiting for our pitch to hit. I agree there is a time and a place to fire away on first pitch but our guys were going all gung ho for a while there swinging at the first and second pitches. Patience kids. This Cubs pitching staff is not that good. So the deeper you go in the count I guarantee you they will see great pitches to rip into the gaps and bleachers.

spawn
07-01-2011, 06:22 PM
I still don't think he should be an everyday leadoff hitter at this stage of his career. I'm not a windsock, and I don't sway in the wind. It's going to take more than this for my opinion to change. That said, Juan has played exceptionally well on this road trip. Good for him, good for the Sox and good for us.

Now this, I have no problem with. When he was struggling, he should've been dropped in the lineup. Ozzie has done that with just about everyone with the exception of JP. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone else stepping into the role. Of course, they haven't been given the chance either. And the way Lillibridge strikes out, he definitely shouldn't be there.

chisoxfanatic
07-01-2011, 06:23 PM
Dunn walks and Pierre laces a 2-RBI triple...Gotta love it!

Santos was filthy as usual as well. Great win for the good guys.

JB98
07-01-2011, 06:30 PM
Now this, I have no problem with. When he was struggling, he should've been dropped in the lineup. Ozzie has done that with just about everyone with the exception of JP. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone else stepping into the role. Of course, they haven't been given the chance either. And the way Lillibridge strikes out, he definitely shouldn't be there.

I've been calling for him to put Ramirez there, with the understanding that Alexei isn't ideal for the role either.

Now that Pierre's speed has diminished, there aren't any prototypical leadoff men on this roster.

I'm all about riding the hot hand, so Juan should bat leadoff as long as he continues to play well. But if the Pierre we've seen for most of June resurfaces, the deck needs to be shuffled.

I think part of the reason posters have been so hard on Pierre is he seems to get favorable treatment from the manager. Other strugglers (Dunn, Rios, Beckham) have quite rightfully had their playing time reduced when they've played poorly. Pierre was allowed to go 1-for-5 or 0-for-5 day after day to the detriment of the team.

Now, Pierre appears to be out of the slump, so thank goodness.

Crestani
07-01-2011, 06:32 PM
It sure is nice to have a closer who comes right at people, after what we had to suffer through last season. The big test for Serge will be how he holds up the second half of the year.

Santos threw only 8 pitches and all strikes...It's amazing how strike one on a hitter changes THE AT BAT..!!

Zakath
07-01-2011, 06:36 PM
Now, Pierre appears to be out of the slump, so thank goodness.

Interesting split with Pierre, at least according to the White Sox website:

Ahead in the count: .202 AVG, .377 OBP
Behind in the count: .293 AVG, .304 OBP

Not sure I've seen too many hitters whose average is 90 points higher when they fall behind in the count.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 06:39 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. People don't like him being in the lineup, and they take their agression out on him in the game threads directly, not Ozzie. Even though there are others in the lineup that haven't come close to justifying their consistent place in the lineup, none of them have taken as much heat as Pierre.

Nobody else has had a consistent place in the lineup, though. Bacon? Dropped and benched. Dunn? Dropped and benched. Rios? Dropped and benched.

Plate appearances going into today's game: Pierre 358 (#1 on the team), Rios 310 (#5), Dunn 283 (#6), Beckham 275 (tied #7)

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with Juan. Remember Podsednik was basically the exact same player, little power, lots of speed, questionable defensively and he was beloved when he was here. So it's not that we're all meatheads who just want sluggers to hit home runs, we just want good baseball players who do their jobs.

TDog
07-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Juan is a bad player, no doubt, so that makes him an easy target, but the underlying reason, I am convinced, that people are so upset with him is because Ozzie's unbelievably rigid philosophy of baseball which mandates you have a speedy slap hitter at the top of your lineup NO MATTER WHAT. NO MATTER WHAT, even if the guy doesn't hit any more, isn't speedy, and doesn't field his position particularly well, he has to bat #1 every day. That's just how baseball is supposed to work.

...

I don't know how true this is. Nick Swisher led off games for the Sox a few years ago before he proved miserable at doing so. The idea being that Swisher previously had a great on-base percentage, although the reality was that on-base percentage for low-average, high-strikeout power hitters often is inflated by pitchers pitching around them situationally.

I have no doubt that with this roster, Pierre is the hitter Guillen feels most comfortable with as a leadoff hitter. And if you do want speed at the top of the White Sox lineup, you don't have many choices.

doublem23
07-01-2011, 06:41 PM
Agreed. That was my last post on the subject.....today.:gulp:

Even though we agree to disagree, I respect your opinion and the fact that you can articulate your points without having to call those of us who do not always bow to the Throne of Ozzie a bunch of whiny "haters."

And we can all agree that if Juan wants to hit late-inning extra base hits for multiple runs, we'll be fine with him. :cool:

kufram
07-01-2011, 06:47 PM
To be able to come back from the collective horrible start meant taking baby steps for awhile. Win a game came first. Win a series. Gain a 1/2 game in the standings. Get a couple of guys going with the bat. Catch the ball. All those baby steps add up to improved play.

Now we need to consolidate our position a little, maybe even take an adult step. We may have done that with the comeback wins. Maybe the team won't believe we are beaten in the 5th when down by 1 run but the hits are even. Dunn contributed today not least by huffing around the bases.... a giant step would be for him to do what everybody knows he is capable of doing. That will make the entire offense better.

As far as the quality of the opposition, I don't care who we get wins against. They are all major league clubs and able to beat any other team on any given night. You belittle your opposition, you devalue your victory and every victory counts exactly the same in the end.

SI1020
07-01-2011, 07:03 PM
boy....talk about about runs coming out of nowhere....offense was only making Wells throw 5 pitch innings and then AJ gets the little single and BAM we are tied

I was a bit surprised that Quade left Wells in after Rios got that hit....but it worked out with the walk to Dunn and then of all people Lil Juan again with a bit hit to knock in go ahead runs.

There havre not been enough of those fun feel good moments in this season---but the shot of TCM fanning the towel on an exhausted Dunn after his race home....awesome

great win Sox! thanks for keeping feel good Friday vibes going to start this holiday weekend.

now AT LEAST take this series He second guessed himself at the post game press conference.

hawkjt
07-01-2011, 07:05 PM
Another nice comeback.
Third win in a row that Juan has driven in the winning run. We need clutchness on this team desperately,and Juan,Alexei,and AJ have been on fire the last three games at least!

Sergio threw what...like 8 straight strikes to get two strikeout and a groundout? Now that is uber-efficiency....I do worry about the second half of the season with Sergio...last year he faded...but I love everything about him.

Yes,Juan had a nice moment on the field after the game where he credited Edwin and the bullpen,and acknowledged that a lot of fans want him gone,but he said he will be fine with whatever happens...this is a classy teammate,and AJ comments about him along with PK are two rocks in the clubhouse. I do not think the folks that want Juan released realize the kind of impact that could have in the clubhouse and the pressure it would put on Dayan if he was asked to replace a departing popular player.

Love Morel's arm at third. What a gun! Good team win. Now, lets go beat Garza.

Chez
07-01-2011, 07:29 PM
Another nice comeback.

Love Morel's arm at third. What a gun! Good team win. Now, lets go beat Garza.

I was going to make the same point. Not only strong, but accurate -- chest high to Paulie.

Daver
07-01-2011, 07:33 PM
I was going to make the same point. Not only strong, but accurate -- chest high to Paulie.

Now he needs to know where to throw the ball and when, he gave up a run today by not knowing.

Dibbs
07-01-2011, 07:36 PM
I'm very happy we won and all, but what was with all that bunting in the 9th? That was executed so well, I say we continue that strategy.

Frankfan4life
07-01-2011, 07:59 PM
Super-classy interview after the game too. Keep it up, Juan!

Let's get them tomorrow and get to .500!Juan is a classy player who always works hard. I felt bad for him earlier in the season when almost everything he did seemed to backfire. I hope he has righted the ship for the rest of the season.

LITTLE NELL
07-01-2011, 08:11 PM
Now he needs to know where to throw the ball and when, he gave up a run today by not knowing.

In fairness to Morel, in the replay it looked like he did not at first have a firm grip on the ball and after he did he took the sure out at first base.

all*star quentin
07-01-2011, 08:13 PM
Juan won the Crosstown Classic MVP Trophy? If he did, congrats to JP. Lets win tomorrow and take the series. Can Juan be the hero 3 games in a row?

I'm watching the Comcast encore now, does that count for 3?


Thank you, Juan! :gulp:and all the Sox players.

SOXSINCE'70
07-01-2011, 08:18 PM
Now he needs to know where to throw the ball and when, he gave up a run today by not knowing.

You are correct,sir:tiphat:.I wish he'd thrown to home plate in that situation.The runner would have been out.

Daver
07-01-2011, 08:18 PM
In fairness to Morel, in the replay it looked like he did not at first have a firm grip on the ball and after he did he took the sure out at first base.

When he got his throw off the runner wasn't even half way to the plate.

Teams that struggle to score runs can not afford to give away runs, and Morel did just that today.

SOXSINCE'70
07-01-2011, 08:24 PM
I Juan-a see the Sox beat the sCrUBS every chance I get. :D:

BringHomeDaBacon
07-01-2011, 09:00 PM
Juan is a classy player who always works hard. I felt bad for him earlier in the season when almost everything he did seemed to backfire. I hope he has righted the ship for the rest of the season.

I still think he's being overplayed because his best days are well behind him but even as someone that has bashed him regularly, I'm down with all of this. Nice job Juan.

p.s. They're supposed to beat Randy Wells so this was more par for the course than something to get excited about.

kittle42
07-01-2011, 09:18 PM
I still don't think he should be an everyday leadoff hitter at this stage of his career. I'm not a windsock, and I don't sway in the wind. It's going to take more than this for my opinion to change. That said, Juan has played exceptionally well on this road trip. Good for him, good for the Sox and good for us.

The Sox bullpen is really looking good, especially Santos and Crain. I thought Crain had the big inning today, facing the handful of good hitters the Cubs have. The game was effectively over when Crain struck out Pena with a man on in the eighth, because the bottom of the Cubbie order wasn't going to do anything against Santos in the ninth. Sergio made those guys look like the bums they are.

It sure is nice to have a closer who comes right at people, after what we had to suffer through last season. The big test for Serge will be how he holds up the second half of the year.

Now this, I have no problem with. When he was struggling, he should've been dropped in the lineup. Ozzie has done that with just about everyone with the exception of JP. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone else stepping into the role. Of course, they haven't been given the chance either. And the way Lillibridge strikes out, he definitely shouldn't be there.

Nobody else has had a consistent place in the lineup, though. Bacon? Dropped and benched. Dunn? Dropped and benched. Rios? Dropped and benched.

Plate appearances going into today's game: Pierre 358 (#1 on the team), Rios 310 (#5), Dunn 283 (#6), Beckham 275 (tied #7)

I honestly don't think it has anything to do with Juan. Remember Podsednik was basically the exact same player, little power, lots of speed, questionable defensively and he was beloved when he was here. So it's not that we're all meatheads who just want sluggers to hit home runs, we just want good baseball players who do their jobs.

Even though we agree to disagree, I respect your opinion and the fact that you can articulate your points without having to call those of us who do not always bow to the Throne of Ozzie a bunch of whiny "haters."

And we can all agree that if Juan wants to hit late-inning extra base hits for multiple runs, we'll be fine with him. :cool:

Best reasoned conversation on this topic that there has ever been.

Can we all agree to stop throwing labels on a non-existent school of thought and address posters' opinions and arguments on their own merits? Or is that too ****ing hard for some of you? Sorry for the anger, but it is ****ing sickening when there is the chance of having an intelligent debate on something only to have it turned into two "camps" of "supporters" and "haters." This isn't a ****ing two-party political system. And - I am sorry to have to say it but I really mean it - those on WSI who are turning it into such a thing are ****ing idiots.

GlassSox
07-01-2011, 09:19 PM
When he got his throw off the runner wasn't even half way to the plate.

Teams that struggle to score runs can not afford to give away runs, and Morel did just that today.

Absolutely correct

spawn
07-01-2011, 09:25 PM
Even though we agree to disagree, I respect your opinion and the fact that you can articulate your points without having to call those of us who do not always bow to the Throne of Ozzie a bunch of whiny "haters."

And we can all agree that if Juan wants to hit late-inning extra base hits for multiple runs, we'll be fine with him. :cool:

Agreed my friend.:gulp:

Frankfan4life
07-01-2011, 09:50 PM
We'll just have to agree to disagree. People don't like him being in the lineup, and they take their agression out on him in the game threads directly, not Ozzie. Even though there are others in the lineup that haven't come close to justifying their consistent place in the lineup, none of them have taken as much heat as Pierre.I agree with you. Players suck from time-to-time. It just happens. However, I find it difficult and ridiculous to single out one or two players to pick on when the Sox as a whole (with a few exceptions) have sucked a lot the first half of the season.

I find it even more difficult to comprehend that when a "despised" player starts to play well. He is only given praise begrudgingly by some.

JermaineDye05
07-01-2011, 09:58 PM
I'll happily eat crow two days in a row since we won.

However, my stance on Pierre remains the same.

Daver
07-01-2011, 10:01 PM
I'll happily eat crow two days in a row since we won.

However, my stance on Pierre remains the same.

We're still waiting for your definition of "viable replacement".

JermaineDye05
07-01-2011, 10:06 PM
We're still waiting for your definition of "viable replacement".

I gave you my answer yesterday.

I don't know why you can't see Viciedo hitting around .260 with a slugging percentage that exceeds Pierre's which is in the low .300s right now.

---

On another note, I see we were 2-9 with RISP again. I'd really like the Sox to fix that.

Daver
07-01-2011, 10:13 PM
I gave you my answer yesterday.

I don't know why you can't see Viciedo hitting around .260 with a slugging percentage that exceeds Pierre's which is in the low .300s right now.

---

On another note, I see we were 2-9 with RISP again. I'd really like the Sox to fix that.


I can see that.

I also know that baseball is not an offensive sport, Brent Morel proved that today.

TomBradley72
07-01-2011, 10:16 PM
We're still waiting for your definition of "viable replacement".

If Juan can't steal bases- there are plenty of viable replacements- guys who bring the same or better OBP- Ramirez, Vizquel, etc.

I like how he's doing the last few days- but what makes him a special lead off hitter if he has a low .300's OBP and doesn't steal bases?

JermaineDye05
07-01-2011, 10:17 PM
I can see that.

I also know that baseball is not an offensive sport, Brent Morel proved that today.

I don't think Pierre's defense will necessarily be missed.

I'm more confident in Viciedo making up for the runs he gives up than Pierre.

Daver
07-01-2011, 10:26 PM
I don't think Pierre's defense will necessarily be missed.

I'm more confident in Viciedo making up for the runs he gives up than Pierre.

Have you actually SEEN him play outfield?

JermaineDye05
07-01-2011, 10:32 PM
Have you actually SEEN him play outfield?

No.

Briefly in spring training.

I have however seen enough of Pierre's defense, offense, and baserunning this season to make the judgment that he shouldn't be on a major league roster.

I also saw Viciedo play up here last season and see his offensive numbers in Charlotte right now.

I think that given the offensive production that you could potentially get from Dayan, his mediocre at best defense in RF won't necessarily hurt you as much as Pierre.

The fact remains that Juan Pierre is hurting this team despite these last two games. He gives this team NOTHING. To start him because some may believe, "there's not a viable replacement," is ridiculous. You have to try something new when there's a player who's hurting your team as bad as he is.

Unless of course you're stuck with him for a couple more seasons like Dunn and Rios.

Brian26
07-01-2011, 10:36 PM
I don't think Pierre's defense will necessarily be missed.

I'm more confident in Viciedo making up for the runs he gives up than Pierre.

You want to make the Sox a better offensive team by making them a worse defensive team than they already are? That's one step forward and two steps back and certainly faulty logic when it comes to winning/championship baseball.

If Viciedo comes up, it has to be to DH or occasionally spell Quentin or Konerko in the field.

Brian26
07-01-2011, 10:39 PM
I have however seen enough of Pierre's defense, offense, and baserunning this season to make the judgment that he shouldn't be on a major league roster.

You realize, I hope, that Rios and Dunn by that definition shouldn't be on a major league roster either. That's taking into account everything they bring to the table.

I'm not defending Juan and still can't stand the dropped flyballs that cost the Sox at least two games early in the season. Bottom line is that there are quite a few holes on the Sox team, and getting rid of him doesn't solve the problem. This probably isn't an issue if Rios and Dunn were doing their jobs right now.

Daver
07-01-2011, 10:45 PM
I think that given the offensive production that you could potentially get from Dayan, his mediocre at best defense in RF won't necessarily hurt you as much as Pierre.


His defense is not mediocre, it's terrible, it's Carlos Lee in left if he only had one leg bad.

I understand that you have to make someone the scapegoat for the teams struggles, but don't extrapolate replacements sight unseen, because all numbers lie.

Soxman219
07-01-2011, 10:53 PM
I hope Juan keeps proving me wrong.

soltrain21
07-01-2011, 11:07 PM
It's obvious that Pierre has realized his speed is gone and is now switching to the power hitter/RBI guy we need in the lineup.

Six tool player. The other tool is his socks.

sunofgold
07-02-2011, 12:09 AM
that we pretty much discuss..ok argue.. in detail 3 players (Pierre, Rios, and Dunn). Maybe four if you count Viciedo. lol! Maybe a good word here or there for Santos or Konerko.

Doesn't even seem like we talk about AJ? Alexei ..where did he go...is he getting better? Is Quentin better this year in the field?

I don't even remember who we called up to replace Danks? Hector I think. Has he pitched yet? ls he good?

hawkjt
07-02-2011, 12:09 AM
No.

Briefly in spring training.

I have however seen enough of Pierre's defense, offense, and baserunning this season to make the judgment that he shouldn't be on a major league roster.

I also saw Viciedo play up here last season and see his offensive numbers in Charlotte right now.

I think that given the offensive production that you could potentially get from Dayan, his mediocre at best defense in RF won't necessarily hurt you as much as Pierre.

The fact remains that Juan Pierre is hurting this team despite these last two games. He gives this team NOTHING. To start him because some may believe, "there's not a viable replacement," is ridiculous. You have to try something new when there's a player who's hurting your team as bad as he is.

Unless of course you're stuck with him for a couple more seasons like Dunn and Rios.


Ok, in his last five games Juan has hit .435 with an onbase of .500,with 6 rbis. You can denigrate it by saying it is only two games,but that would not be accurate. He is the hottest hitter on the team this week,so why not at least wait til he cools off before slamming him yet again?

Mohoney
07-02-2011, 12:22 AM
Most excellent win and another fine outing by the bullpen. That Bruney guy does not suck nearly as much as some have suggested and that third strike on Pena to end the 8th by Crain was just flat nasty.

I think Bruney has to stay over Tony Pena now. You can't risk ruining the good vibes that this bullpen is producing.

doublem23
07-02-2011, 12:49 AM
We're still waiting for your definition of "viable replacement".

It has been given multiple times, you just refuse to acknowledge it because you don't like it.

doublem23
07-02-2011, 12:52 AM
His defense is not mediocre, it's terrible, it's Carlos Lee in left if he only had one leg bad.

I understand that you have to make someone the scapegoat for the teams struggles, but don't extrapolate replacements sight unseen, because all numbers lie.

And that is a cop-out excuse, you've seen how many of Viciedo's plays in the OF? 20? 30? No one in their right mind could possibly make a conclusive opinion of a guy's defensive ability on such limited information, especially since he's relearning how to play the position.

JB98
07-02-2011, 01:31 AM
I think Bruney has to stay over Tony Pena now. You can't risk ruining the good vibes that this bullpen is producing.

I don't know. Bruney still has to prove to me he can throw more strikes before he can be trusted in high-leverage situations.

The Sox are looking for that extra right-handed reliever to take some of the pressure off Crain in the seventh and eighth innings, but I'm not sold Bruney is that guy. In watching Bruney today, he had a good fastball and a decent change. But his breaking ball was a piece of ****. Given the pitches he was featuring, he was actually better off facing left-handed hitters today. It was a smart move to leave him in against DeWitt and Fukudome. Those were favorable matchups for the Sox.

Bruney would have had more trouble retiring a right-handed hitter this afternoon, because his breaking ball was not sharp (see the base hit he gave up to Johnson) and has not been particularly sharp since his recall. He's gonna have to fix that in order to solidify a role in this bullpen.

Certainly an effective outing today, but let's not forget 7-8-9 in a weak Cubbie lineup were due up when he entered the fray. I'm not ready to allow that guy to face Miguel Cabrera or even Billy Butler in a high-leverage situation just yet.

doublem23
07-02-2011, 01:39 AM
I don't know. Bruney still has to prove to me he can throw more strikes before he can be trusted in high-leverage situations.

The Sox are looking for that extra right-handed reliever to take some of the pressure off Crain in the seventh and eighth innings, but I'm not sold Bruney is that guy. In watching Bruney today, he had a good fastball and a decent change. But his breaking ball was a piece of ****. Given the pitches he was featuring, he was actually better off facing left-handed hitters today. It was a smart move to leave him in against DeWitt and Fukudome. Those were favorable matchups for the Sox.

Bruney would have had more trouble retiring a right-handed hitter this afternoon, because his breaking ball was not sharp (see the base hit he gave up to Johnson) and has not been particularly sharp since his recall. He's gonna have to fix that in order to solidify a role in this bullpen.

Certainly an effective outing today, but let's not forget 7-8-9 in a weak Cubbie lineup were due up when he entered the fray. I'm not ready to allow that guy to face Miguel Cabrera or even Billy Butler in a high-leverage situation just yet.

I agree, I know Bruney's numbers look nice but something about the way he works, just scares the hell out of me. The guy seems to really tow a tight line, but so far, it has worked for him, so... Okay for now.

He's still a hell of a lot better than Pena, who I feel we should just throw 2 more runs up on the board any time he enters a game and just save us all the trouble.

JB98
07-02-2011, 01:46 AM
I agree, I know Bruney's numbers look nice but something about the way he works, just scares the hell out of me. The guy seems to really tow a tight line, but so far, it has worked for him, so... Okay for now.

He's still a hell of a lot better than Pena, who I feel we should just throw 2 more runs up on the board any time he enters a game and just save us all the trouble.

Yeah, Pena isn't the answer either. He was effective at times last year in a long relief role, but he's not somebody you want to bring in to get a tough right-handed hitter out in the seventh or eighth inning.

Pena hangs his slider WAY TOO OFTEN, and a right-handed hitter's eyes will light up if he sees a hanging slider from a right-handed pitcher. Just look at what Alexei Ramirez did to that piece of slop Wells flipped up there in the seventh inning today. We've seen Tony Pena make pitches just like that on far too many occasions.

I'll concur with any poster who argues that Pena stinks, but I'd add that Bruney hasn't won me over yet either. Crain has been great for us, but I am a little worried about Jesse's workload moving forward. He's been asked to do a lot.

voodoochile
07-02-2011, 01:47 AM
I don't know. Bruney still has to prove to me he can throw more strikes before he can be trusted in high-leverage situations.

The Sox are looking for that extra right-handed reliever to take some of the pressure off Crain in the seventh and eighth innings, but I'm not sold Bruney is that guy. In watching Bruney today, he had a good fastball and a decent change. But his breaking ball was a piece of ****. Given the pitches he was featuring, he was actually better off facing left-handed hitters today. It was a smart move to leave him in against DeWitt and Fukudome. Those were favorable matchups for the Sox.

Bruney would have had more trouble retiring a right-handed hitter this afternoon, because his breaking ball was not sharp (see the base hit he gave up to Johnson) and has not been particularly sharp since his recall. He's gonna have to fix that in order to solidify a role in this bullpen.

Certainly an effective outing today, but let's not forget 7-8-9 in a weak Cubbie lineup were due up when he entered the fray. I'm not ready to allow that guy to face Miguel Cabrera or even Billy Butler in a high-leverage situation just yet.

But he doesn't need to be that guy either. I mean he's still the middle relief/5th pitcher second tier RH reliever. How many teams have a light's out shut down pitcher coming out of the pen as the 5th arm? I think we are expecting just a bit much if we expect that. For where he pitches you hope for competence and the ability to shut down some weaker hitters when the need arises. If that's all he gives us it's enough.

Sale, Thornton, Crain and Santos are the core of the late inning pitchers. Bruney and Ohman just have to be competent.

Edit: I guess technically that makes Bruney the 6th arm out of the pen too. I actually forgot about Sale when I first posted, but Bruney would be behind Ohman in most books and even if you have him higher than Ohman on the chart he's still the 5th arm out of the pen.

voodoochile
07-02-2011, 01:50 AM
Yeah, Pena isn't the answer either. He was effective at times last year in a long relief role, but he's not somebody you want to bring in to get a tough right-handed hitter out in the seventh or eighth inning.

Pena hangs his slider WAY TOO OFTEN, and a right-handed hitter's eyes will light up if he sees a hanging slider from a right-handed pitcher. Just look at what Alexei Ramirez did to that piece of slop Wells flipped up there in the seventh inning today. We've seen Tony Pena make pitches just like that on far too many occasions.

I'll concur with any poster who argues that Pena stinks, but I'd add that Bruney hasn't won me over yet either. Crain has been great for us, but I am a little worried about Jesse's workload moving forward. He's been asked to do a lot.

My issue with Pena is he relies on his slow/breaking stuff too much. He's got a decent fastball he needs to throw it more.

JB98
07-02-2011, 02:02 AM
But he doesn't need to be that guy either. I mean he's still the middle relief/5th pitcher second tier RH reliever. How many teams have a light's out shut down pitcher coming out of the pen as the 5th arm? I think we are expecting just a bit much if we expect that. For where he pitches you hope for competence and the ability to shut down some weaker hitters when the need arises. If that's all he gives us it's enough.

Sale, Thornton, Crain and Santos are the core of the late inning pitchers. Bruney and Ohman just have to be competent.

Edit: I guess technically that makes Bruney the 6th arm out of the pen too. I actually forgot about Sale when I first posted, but Bruney would be behind Ohman in most books and even if you have him higher than Ohman on the chart he's still the 5th arm out of the pen.

My concern, though, is the way Ozzie manages the bullpen. Crain is obviously the man as the primary right-handed setup reliever. He's gonna get most of the work in that role, but of course, he can't pitch every single day.

When Crain is unavailable, I'm comfortable going to Sale -- even against right-handed batters. But Ozzie isn't going to do it that way. He loves his lefty/righty stuff, and he's going to go to Bruney. That means Bruney better be able to handle it.

For example, take the situation last Friday against Washington. No score, eighth inning, man at third, two outs, Sale on the hill, tough right-handed hitter in Morse due up for the Nationals. I stick with Sale in that spot, because I happen to have faith in Chris. Not Ozzie. He wants a right-hander against a right-handed batter. He wants to stay away from Crain, so he goes to Bruney. Morse hits a HR off Bruney that hasn't landed yet, while JB sits in the seats and fumes.

Bruney may be the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen, but he isn't used as the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen. That's where the issue lies with me.

JB98
07-02-2011, 02:03 AM
My issue with Pena is he relies on his slow/breaking stuff too much. He's got a decent fastball he needs to throw it more.

His fastball is clearly a better pitch for him than his slider. There's zero question about that.

Crooked Number
07-02-2011, 02:19 AM
Sox with a big four spot in one inning today, that was a welcomed sight. The game was still full of the same old horrid execution problems, but a win is a win and I will take it. We win tomorrow and that will match the biggest winning streak this team has had all year.

I know its one game at a time, but it would be a really positive way to enter this huge divisional week if this team can get a sweep. I am confident that Phil will give us a great chance today. Six runs a game will definitely get it done. Keep it going...

balke
07-02-2011, 02:42 AM
And that is a cop-out excuse, you've seen how many of Viciedo's plays in the OF? 20? 30? No one in their right mind could possibly make a conclusive opinion of a guy's defensive ability on such limited information, especially since he's relearning how to play the position.

Sounds like the same garbage being tossed around about him playing 3B. Even when it was obvious he was terrible, people would make the excuse "Not everyone is Crede at 3B".

Kinda unhappy about Morel's throw to first today - counts against Edwin on the score sheet. Waiting for Quentin to find his stroke again. Bruney has played way better than I expected so far. And nice to see some production out of Juan lately. A sweep would be neat.

rcescato
07-02-2011, 03:16 AM
Hey one under .500...nice!!!

LOL If we win tomorrow we can start the season over.

ShooterMcGavin
07-02-2011, 03:28 AM
I thoroughly enjoyed today's game. Juan Pierre, you deserve this one.

Morel has improved much since April.

Crain and Santos succeed again, but I'd like them both to have the day off tomorrow.

Bruney has been better than I expected.

voodoochile
07-02-2011, 03:53 AM
My concern, though, is the way Ozzie manages the bullpen. Crain is obviously the man as the primary right-handed setup reliever. He's gonna get most of the work in that role, but of course, he can't pitch every single day.

When Crain is unavailable, I'm comfortable going to Sale -- even against right-handed batters. But Ozzie isn't going to do it that way. He loves his lefty/righty stuff, and he's going to go to Bruney. That means Bruney better be able to handle it.

For example, take the situation last Friday against Washington. No score, eighth inning, man at third, two outs, Sale on the hill, tough right-handed hitter in Morse due up for the Nationals. I stick with Sale in that spot, because I happen to have faith in Chris. Not Ozzie. He wants a right-hander against a right-handed batter. He wants to stay away from Crain, so he goes to Bruney. Morse hits a HR off Bruney that hasn't landed yet, while JB sits in the seats and fumes.

Bruney may be the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen, but he isn't used as the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen. That's where the issue lies with me.

But as you said you can't use these guys every single game. Since that game and in every other game save his very first Bruney has been fine. Whether you trust him or not he's gotten the job done. All relievers give up home runs and yeah sometimes Ozzie's gonna be forced to use his 5 or 6th reliver in a tight game late because the bullpen's put in a lot of work - as it has recently due to the extra inning games and a couple of starters only going 6.

kufram
07-02-2011, 04:14 AM
I agree, I know Bruney's numbers look nice but something about the way he works, just scares the hell out of me. The guy seems to really tow a tight line, but so far, it has worked for him, so... Okay for now.

He's still a hell of a lot better than Pena, who I feel we should just throw 2 more runs up on the board any time he enters a game and just save us all the trouble.

I agree totally... but in my case I think the beard is the cause of my fear. A beard like that just doesn't look right on a pitcher. Absolutely no foundation for that argument, of course.

Morel's throw to first? Tough one to choose. On one hand I ALWAYS like to see guys thrown out at the plate, but there is also an argument for the "sure" out. Home required a tag, etc. I do like to see aggressive defense though, especially with Morel's arm and AJ's glove. AJ seemed to applaud the choice. Maybe he was just backing a rookie.

TomBradley72
07-02-2011, 09:25 AM
Piece by piece the team has steadily improved since early May- to go to the next level- we need Bruney to provide a reliable alternative to Crain and avoid ever seeing Pena again this season and either Beckham or Dunn to get back to the kind of offensive production that's expected of them.

We don't need a dramatic improvement in our offense- just a small improvement to turn those "quality start" losses into wins.

We've played ~.590 ball since May 7th- if those factors kick in - I think we'll catch Detroit.

Still believe Viciedo is the better choice- but if Pierre keeps coming up with the big hits and can avoid the Ralph Garr imitation from earlier in the year on defense- he can be a servicable player for the final few months of his career.

I still don't buy Daver's extremely negative assessments of Viciedo's defense- from the broadcasts in spring training, to multiple scouting reports, to the Charlotte announcers- I haven't heard any other assessments like that. I think it's worth a shot.

hawkjt
07-02-2011, 11:06 AM
I hope we can see the new guy out of the bullpen today,meaning the Sox have a decent lead. I agree that the temptation to go to Crane is always there..everyday,but, just have to save the bullets if possible. Bruney has driven me a bit wacky with his control issues,but he has done a passable job,with some hard hit balls right at people bailing him out. Yesterdays outing was among his best,tho,so maybe he is rising.

The bullpen is rocking right now,but that is always day to day.
With only two righties before the 9th,it seems so short.
Ozzie has used them wisely this week,as was pointed out by Stoney the other day. In colorado,Tracy used up his guys before the 9th,and Ozzie had his best two still available.

I was flipping last nite and landed on the Yankees/Mets game,and Girardi had used all 7 of his bullpen pitchers in a 5-1 win...like Tracy and other managers who go righty/lefty matchup even more than Ozzie.

tstrike2000
07-02-2011, 11:53 AM
For example, take the situation last Friday against Washington. No score, eighth inning, man at third, two outs, Sale on the hill, tough right-handed hitter in Morse due up for the Nationals. I stick with Sale in that spot, because I happen to have faith in Chris. Not Ozzie. He wants a right-hander against a right-handed batter. He wants to stay away from Crain, so he goes to Bruney. Morse hits a HR off Bruney that hasn't landed yet, while JB sits in the seats and fumes.

Bruney may be the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen, but he isn't used as the fifth or sixth arm out of the pen. That's where the issue lies with me.

I do, too. Listening to the last few games in which Chris has pitched, Stone Pony has had good reviews of Don Cooper moving Sale to the other side of the rubber to help better take advantage of that sweeping breaking pitch. Right now it seems like it's working wonders. Chris' ERA has gone from 4.98 to 3.71 in the last month. Add Matt Thornton to that mix, whose ERA has gone from 5.79 to 3.68 during the same month. That's beautiful.

Like others, you have to agree about Bruney. We don't know how reliable he can be, especially with a small sample size. Like you, I'm also concerned about Crain's workload. He hasn't worked more than 68 innings since 2006 and he's at 37 right now.

kittle42
07-02-2011, 11:57 AM
I can see that.

I also know that baseball is not an offensive sport, Brent Morel proved that today.

Give me a lineup of 9 Alvaro Espinozas and we're world series bound!

kittle42
07-02-2011, 11:58 AM
Ok, in his last five games Juan has hit .435 with an onbase of .500,with 6 rbis. You can denigrate it by saying it is only two games,but that would not be accurate. He is the hottest hitter on the team this week,so why not at least wait til he cools off before slamming him yet again?

Why do you so enjoy cherrypicking stats?

kittle42
07-02-2011, 12:01 PM
And that is a cop-out excuse, you've seen how many of Viciedo's plays in the OF? 20? 30? No one in their right mind could possibly make a conclusive opinion of a guy's defensive ability on such limited information, especially since he's relearning how to play the position.

Come on, now, doub...he has tape!

NDSox12
07-02-2011, 12:38 PM
I don't know. Bruney still has to prove to me he can throw more strikes before he can be trusted in high-leverage situations.

The Sox are looking for that extra right-handed reliever to take some of the pressure off Crain in the seventh and eighth innings, but I'm not sold Bruney is that guy. In watching Bruney today, he had a good fastball and a decent change. But his breaking ball was a piece of ****. Given the pitches he was featuring, he was actually better off facing left-handed hitters today. It was a smart move to leave him in against DeWitt and Fukudome. Those were favorable matchups for the Sox.

Bruney would have had more trouble retiring a right-handed hitter this afternoon, because his breaking ball was not sharp (see the base hit he gave up to Johnson) and has not been particularly sharp since his recall. He's gonna have to fix that in order to solidify a role in this bullpen.

Certainly an effective outing today, but let's not forget 7-8-9 in a weak Cubbie lineup were due up when he entered the fray. I'm not ready to allow that guy to face Miguel Cabrera or even Billy Butler in a high-leverage situation just yet.

I agree with this. I do not trust a pitcher with 6.5 BB/9 and a 1.55 WHIP. Those aren't just his numbers this year. They are almost identical to his career stats. He just doesn't throw enough strikes to be counted on regularly in high stress situations. I'm glad he has had a couple nice outings, but hope Ozzie doesn't fall in love with using him in the 7th and 8th.

Also, as a general rule, I don't trust players who were released by the Nationals.

SI1020
07-02-2011, 12:40 PM
Come on, now, doub...he has tape! I don't understand making fun of someone who has actually watched the guy play. I wonder how many here would even recognize Dayan Viciedo in a crowd. It doesn't take 1000 games to notice the awkwardness that is evident at one glance. I hope Viciedo turns out to be the star so many seem to think he already is.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2011, 12:55 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/6291554-419/ozzie-defends-pierre-against-all-critics-including-sox-gm-williams.html

Lip

hawkjt
07-02-2011, 01:01 PM
Why do you so enjoy cherrypicking stats?

Because baseball is a game of streaks,and when a player has a career average of .316 in the second half over 13 years, I think the trend is relevant. Why do some ignore that stat,but embrace the current year dismal stats? Pierre has had some dismal first halves in the past only to heat up in the second half,and just as we reach that point in this season,he is heating up..so this dovetails with his history.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 01:28 PM
Because baseball is a game of streaks,and when a player has a career average of .316 in the second half over 13 years, I think the trend is relevant. Why do some ignore that stat,but embrace the current year dismal stats? Pierre has had some dismal first halves in the past only to heat up in the second half,and just as we reach that point in this season,he is heating up..so this dovetails with his history.

Because Juan's asset is his speed. He's clearly a singles hitter, but that was okay before when he was stealing 40-60 bases a year because some of those singles become doubles and triples. Now that he's lost a step or two, he's become almost a station to station player on the basepaths pretty much which really isn't good for a guy who's meant to score runs.

spawn
07-02-2011, 01:43 PM
Because Juan's asset is his speed. He's clearly a singles hitter, but that was okay before when he was stealing 40-60 bases a year because some of those singles become doubles and triples. Now that he's lost a step or two, he's become almost a station to station player on the basepaths pretty much which really isn't good for a guy who's meant to score runs.
He may have lost a step, but he's not even close to being a station to station player. Konerko, Dunn...they are station to station players. You are definitely being overly dramatic when it comes to Pierre.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 01:48 PM
He may have lost a step, but he's not even close to being a station to station player. Konerko, Dunn...they are station to station players. You are definitely being overly dramatic when it comes to Pierre.

That probably was an extreme exaggeration on my part.

I just think Pierre needs to be stealing to make his offensive game work, and right now he's being thrown out 50% of the time he attempts.

spawn
07-02-2011, 01:49 PM
That probably was an extreme exaggeration on my part.

I just think Pierre needs to be stealing to make his offensive game work, and right now he's being thrown out 50% of the time he attempts.
Ya think?

Brian26
07-02-2011, 01:50 PM
That probably was an extreme exaggeration on my part.

Yeah, probably.

JB98
07-02-2011, 01:56 PM
But as you said you can't use these guys every single game. Since that game and in every other game save his very first Bruney has been fine. Whether you trust him or not he's gotten the job done. All relievers give up home runs and yeah sometimes Ozzie's gonna be forced to use his 5 or 6th reliver in a tight game late because the bullpen's put in a lot of work - as it has recently due to the extra inning games and a couple of starters only going 6.

I would rather go with a quality left-hander (Sale) than a journeyman right-hander with a high walk rate (Bruney), even against quality right-handed hitters. The White Sox manager obviously disagrees with me. Oh well.

I'm looking at the pitches Bruney is featuring and I'm not convinced he will be a productive member of the bullpen over a long haul. It's always possible he will make a believer out of me, but I haven't been impressed so far.

voodoochile
07-02-2011, 02:21 PM
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/6291554-419/ozzie-defends-pierre-against-all-critics-including-sox-gm-williams.html

Lip

How come when I view that all I get is the headline and some picture of Juan highfiving another Sox player? Do I need to subscribe or register?

voodoochile
07-02-2011, 02:22 PM
Because Juan's asset is his speed. He's clearly a singles hitter, but that was okay before when he was stealing 40-60 bases a year because some of those singles become doubles and triples. Now that he's lost a step or two, he's become almost a station to station player on the basepaths pretty much which really isn't good for a guy who's meant to score runs.

Bull**** he routinely goes first to third on singles. You make it sound like he's Paul Konerko. He's still the fastest guy on the team whether he will steal 50-70 bags a year notwithstanding...

Edit: I see this has already been discussed, nevermind...

kittle42
07-02-2011, 02:58 PM
Because baseball is a game of streaks,and when a player has a career average of .316 in the second half over 13 years, I think the trend is relevant. Why do some ignore that stat,but embrace the current year dismal stats? Pierre has had some dismal first halves in the past only to heat up in the second half,and just as we reach that point in this season,he is heating up..so this dovetails with his history.

I recently read a great book called Scorecasting that basically disproves the significance of "streaks."

hawkjt
07-02-2011, 03:35 PM
I recently read a great book called Scorecasting that basically disproves the significance of "streaks."

I know that is out there...each at bat is a singular random event type of deal. I do not buy it. If this were true, .260 career hitters would get exactly 26 hits for every 100 at bats. Baseball,to me, is the ultimate streaky game...like playing the Nats when they ahd won 11 of 12...they refused to lose easy that series. If the Sox play them in April,they probably kill them.

spawn
07-02-2011, 03:42 PM
How come when I view that all I get is the headline and some picture of Juan highfiving another Sox player? Do I need to subscribe or register?
Nope. The article just isn't there.

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2011, 03:49 PM
Come on, now, doub...he has tape!And yet those who haven't seen him play at all can state that he'll be adequate defensively, and you're fine with that.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 03:55 PM
And yet those who haven't seen him play at all can state that he'll be adequate defensively, and you're fine with that.

Fine with him being adequate or fine with making the blind judgment on his defense?

Nellie_Fox
07-02-2011, 03:57 PM
Fine with him being adequate or fine with making the blind judgment on his defense?Critical of people who have seen him play making a judgment, fine with people who haven't seen him play making a judgment.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 05:02 PM
Critical of people who have seen him play making a judgment, fine with people who haven't seen him play making a judgment.

Fielding aside, it'd be hard for Viciedo to be worse than Pierre as a whole.

Daver
07-02-2011, 05:13 PM
Fielding aside, it'd be hard for Viciedo to be worse than Pierre as a whole.

You can't put fielding aside in a sport that is based on pitching and defense, if you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you, other than to say this isn't fantasy baseball where stats are the end all and be all.

Baseball simply is not an offensive sport, when a team is on offense the other team controls the ball.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 05:17 PM
You can't put fielding aside in a sport that is based on pitching and defense, if you can't grasp that I don't know what to tell you, other than to say this isn't fantasy baseball where stats are the end all and be all.

Baseball simply is not an offensive sport, when a team is on offense the other team controls the ball.

Baseball also isn't purely a defensive sport.

Robinson Cano is certainly not a gold glove second baseman (Yes, I know he won one), but I'd take him in a second over Beckham.

No pun intended.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 05:24 PM
I just want to know, what exactly does Pierre do so well that we can't replace right now?

Daver
07-02-2011, 05:27 PM
I just want to know, what exactly does Pierre do so well that we can't replace right now?

Go ahead and replace him, but with an outfielder, not a DH.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 06:44 PM
Go ahead and replace him, but with an outfielder, not a DH.

Let's ignore the horrendous contract right now.

If you had a choice between Alfonso Soriano or Juan Pierre, would you still take Pierre?

Daver
07-02-2011, 06:48 PM
Let's ignore the horrendous contract right now.

If you had a choice between Alfonso Soriano or Juan Pierre, would you still take Pierre?


What the hell does that have to do with anything?

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 07:27 PM
What the hell does that have to do with anything?

On one hand you have a bad fielder who doesn't give you much offensively other than singles.

On the other hand you have a bad fielder who will give you some power and drive in runs.

I think it's a pretty good analogy for the JP/Viciedo debate.

Daver
07-02-2011, 07:31 PM
On one hand you have a bad fielder who doesbt give you much offensively other than singles.

On the other hand you have a bad fielder who will give you some power and drive in runs.

I think it's a pretty good analogy for the JP/Viciedo debate.

You're comparing apples to coconuts, and I am not going to waste my time debating speculative minutiae with a bandwagon fan.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 07:42 PM
You're comparing apples to coconuts, and I am not going to waste my time debating speculative minutiae with a bandwagon fan.

Please elaborate. How is that not a fair comparison?

Daver
07-02-2011, 07:44 PM
Please elaborate. How is that not a fair comparison?


There is no DH in the NL.

And I am done on this.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 07:48 PM
There is no DH in the NL.

And I am done on this.

We're not talking about the NL are we?

Once again, for arguments sake, if you had a choice between a player like Soriano and Juan Pierre, would you still take Juan Pierre?

Would you sacrifice the defense for the clearly superior offensive production?

Brian26
07-02-2011, 09:30 PM
Baseball also isn't purely a defensive sport.

Brent Morel won the game for the Sox today with his glove at 3B.

The key to winning baseball is pitching and defense. It's been proven time and time again.

JermaineDye05
07-02-2011, 09:55 PM
Brent Morel won the game for the Sox today with his glove at 3B.

The key to winning baseball is pitching and defense. It's been proven time and time again.

You still have to score.

Talk to Lip. He's been posting the stats in every thread. How many games have we lost with quality starts from our pitchers?

Enlighten me how Pierre fits into the equation of pitching and defense.

Lip Man 1
07-02-2011, 11:35 PM
JD:

I don't know the number with "quality starts" but I do know the Sox have lost 11 games this year when holding an opponent to three runs or less. How that compares to other teams this year I don't know.

Lip