PDA

View Full Version : *Official* 6-26 Walker's hitters WASH out, NATS 2, SOX 1 Postgame Rage Thread


Pages : [1] 2

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:05 PM
Protoypically puketacular performance.

ChiSoxGal85
06-26-2011, 05:06 PM
:gah:

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:06 PM
Mike Morse is a tool.

balke
06-26-2011, 05:07 PM
And with 4 K's and 4 LOB - your DH #5 hitter... Adam Dunn.

Soxman219
06-26-2011, 05:07 PM
Poor Humber

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Poor Humber

Poor us! That was awful.

soltrain21
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Why do some people in this organization still have jobs?

Tragg
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Incredible how the manager will, when down 1, pinch hit for the 1 guy in the 3 up in the order who can drive the ball out of the park (and who did so in the 9th inning Fri night), but won't touch the slap hitter.
What an absolute anchor on this team.
Also, when your bench bat is, essentially, a utility player, that indicates another problem on the team.

russ99
06-26-2011, 05:08 PM
Same old story. Nobody makes any adjustments. Nobody cares if people are on base, just flail away.

Please, tell me again why is our hitting coach is drawing a salary?

sunofgold
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Good pitching performance. Dunn is our biggest problem right now. Don't say that it is Pierre. lol. But there is hope! We do have reinforcements. We have a Tank that could be here anyday now and he would look very nice in the DH role.

Zakath
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
1-for-7 RISP.

Dunn reaches the century mark in K's, and we're not even to the halfway mark.

At least the weather was nice, and the pitching staff did its job save one mistake by Humber to Espinosa.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
We left 9 runners on base. Greg Walker is doing a great job, because obviously none of us have played major league baseball, and therefore it's impossible for us to render judgment.

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Why do some people in this organization still have jobs?

These guys have jobs for life. We could only be so lucky.

LongLiveFisk
06-26-2011, 05:09 PM
Why do some people in this organization still have jobs?

Good question. I should get hired by the White Sox organization. Talk about job security.

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Can't win many games by scoring 1 run.
Bench Adam Strikeout Dunn and let Teahen DH, he has hit the ball well lately and at least makes contact.
I don't care how much we are paying Dunn, he is horrible and we can't afford 4 strikeouts a game.

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Good question. I should get hired by the White Sox organization. Talk about job security.

It helps if you make friends with Jerry and Ozzie...

Tragg
06-26-2011, 05:10 PM
Good pitching performance. Dunn is our biggest problem right now. Don't say that it is Pierre. lol. But there is hope! We do have reinforcements. We have a Tank that could be here anyday now and he would look very nice in the DH role.
We're stuck with Dunn. We could correct the Pierre problem tomorrow. We could correct the anchor in the dugout tomorrow as well.
Take out the power hitter when down 1!!!!

cleanwsox
06-26-2011, 05:11 PM
I hope that 1 year of free agency is worth it. This wait for Viciedo seems like eternity.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:11 PM
Good pitching performance. Dunn is our biggest problem right now. Don't say that it is Pierre. lol. But there is hope! We do have reinforcements. We have a Tank that could be here anyday now and he would look very nice in the DH role.

I think Viciedo needs to come up and be the DH. Dunn needs to sit. Maybe he can get his head right and help next year.

balke
06-26-2011, 05:11 PM
We're stuck with Dunn. We could correct the Pierre problem tomorrow. We could correct the anchor in the dugout tomorrow as well.
Take out the power hitter when down 1!!!!


I'd rather see Pierre at DH than Dunn. Stuck with him doesn't mean he has to play. Grab some bench Donkey.

russ99
06-26-2011, 05:12 PM
Incredible how the manager will, when down 1, pinch hit for the 1 guy in the 3 up in the order who can drive the ball out of the park (and who did so in the 9th inning Fri night), but won't touch the slap hitter.
What an absolute anchor on this team.
Also, when your bench bat is, essentially, a utility player, that indicates another problem on the team.

Suuuure... It's Pierre's fault yet again, not the crappy power hitters who can't drive in a run unless they hit one out of the park.

:rolleyes:

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:12 PM
I'd rather see Pierre at DH than Dunn.

:rolling:

Kill me now.

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:12 PM
When will the Sox make it to .500? Ever?

russ99
06-26-2011, 05:12 PM
We're stuck with Dunn. We could correct the Pierre problem tomorrow. We could correct the anchor in the dugout tomorrow as well.
Take out the power hitter when down 1!!!!

Pierre did his job today, your power hitters did not.

Wind blowing in, soft tosser starting, did ANY of them change their approach?

LongLiveFisk
06-26-2011, 05:13 PM
I'd rather see Pierre at DH than Dunn. Stuck with him doesn't mean he has to play. Grab some bench Donkey.

:rolling:

Kill me now.

Is Brian Daubach still available?

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2011, 05:13 PM
When will the Sox make it to .500? Ever?

Not if we continue to hit like we have so far.

soltrain21
06-26-2011, 05:13 PM
Suuuure... It's Pierre's fault yet again, not the crappy power hitters who can't drive in a run unless they hit one out of the park.

:rolleyes:

But why take one out who can hit it out of the park and did so Friday to tie it up?

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:14 PM
Is Brian Daubach still available?

Joe Borchard, COME ON DOWN!

sunofgold
06-26-2011, 05:14 PM
The more you think about it, PK's numbers are very impressive b/c nobody is hitting behind him. Quentin has PK protecting him. PK has had Dunn batting behind him most of the season.

Surprised that N's pitched to Konerko in the 7th. PK almost made them pay for that one. That was the difference in the game. PK almost had a HR there and that probably would have won us this game.

DirtySox
06-26-2011, 05:14 PM
Pierre did his job today, your power hitters did not.

Wind blowing in, soft tosser starting, did ANY of them change their approach?

Doesn't matter. Dunn and Rios are here to stay. Juan will gloriously be sent to the bench or packing in the next week or two. I can't wait.

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:15 PM
Pierre did his job today, your power hitters did not.

Thank you. There is enough grief to go around without twisting this one as Pierre's fault--or Ozzie's for batting him.

But Oz should have pinch hit for Dunn against the lefty.

russ99
06-26-2011, 05:15 PM
But why take one out who can hit it out of the park and did so Friday to tie it up?

This is the problem right here.

The wind is blowing in, Paulie just killed one and it hung up for a fly. There needs to be other ways to score runs, and right now there isn't.

The power hitter would have flailed for the fences and either struck out or flied out.

Had we executed in one of the other 6 chances we had to score runs, people wouldn't be second-guessing Ozzie leaving Pierre in with 2 outs and nobody on.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:15 PM
Pierre did his job today, your power hitters did not.

Wind blowing in, soft tosser starting, did ANY of them change their approach?

No, because Greg Walker is a great hitting coach. Just look for a fastball down the middle, and then swing as hard as you can. See, it's the best approach. Even Hawk says so.

LongLiveFisk
06-26-2011, 05:15 PM
Suuuure... It's Pierre's fault yet again, not the crappy power hitters who can't drive in a run unless they hit one out of the park.

:rolleyes:

There's plenty of blame to go around.

Tragg
06-26-2011, 05:16 PM
Pierre did his job today, your power hitters did not.
I didn't say they did. I didn't blame this game on Pierre - try again.
But in the 9th down 1, what you need are guys who can drive the ball.

Somehow, we lost this game on a HR.

soltrain21
06-26-2011, 05:17 PM
This is the problem right here.

The wind is blowing in, Paulie just killed one and it hung up for a fly. There needs to be other ways to score runs, and right now there isn't.

The power hitter would have flailed for the fences and either struck out or flied out.

But I saw one of their guys take one out. That's so weird.

Soxman219
06-26-2011, 05:17 PM
It's starting to look like Dunn is more of a problem then Pierre. He's hitting below .180! This is your 56 million dollar man right here.

Dan H
06-26-2011, 05:17 PM
Can't win many games by scoring 1 run.
Bench Adam Strikeout Dunn and let Teahen DH, he has hit the ball well lately and at least makes contact.
I don't care how much we are paying Dunn, he is horrible and we can't afford 4 strikeouts a game.

I agree about Dunn. I knew this guy was going to strikeout a lot but I didn't think we would see so many games where this guy strikes out at every appearance. Baseball people Dunn has to hit his way out of it but sending him up there is like giving an inning and a third away right from the start. They tell us he will break out of it and we are still waiting. Meanwhile, the season is slipping away.

EnglishChiSox
06-26-2011, 05:18 PM
16 K's in 7 days for Dunn. HIH

Zakath
06-26-2011, 05:19 PM
But I saw one of their guys take one out. That's so weird.

To right. Nothing but a frozen rope was going out to left.

Tragg
06-26-2011, 05:19 PM
It's starting to look like Dunn is more of a problem then Pierre. He's hitting below .180! This is your 56 million dollar man right here.

We're stuck with him. At least he's about to get 6 straight games on the pine.

MarySwiss
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
I hate to say this, but I called this one in the fourth inning. I even called 9 LOB.

SOMEBODY DO SOMETHING!!! :angry:

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
We're stuck with him. At least he's about to get 6 straight games on the pine.

I'm sure he'll stumble into the starting lineup sometime this week.

LongLiveFisk
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
We're stuck with him. At least he's about to get 6 straight games on the pine.

No, Ozzie is saying on the postgame show right now that he will see playing time.

Good Lord.

Dan H
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
When will the Sox make it to .500? Ever?

They just guaranteed to finish the first half of the season under .500. But it's still early.

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
We're stuck with him. At least he's about to get 6 straight games on the pine.


Unless he plays right field again. :o:

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2011, 05:20 PM
It's starting to look like Dunn is more of a problem then Pierre. He's hitting below .180! This is your 56 million dollar man right here.

Like Harry Caray used to say, ''they just put his average on the board but I'm not going to mention it, why embarrass him any more"

BainesHOF
06-26-2011, 05:21 PM
It was a great game to watch thanks to the two starting pitchers.

Unfortunately, Pierzynski made another horrible pitch call on the home run that wound up costing us the game. Why would you call for Humber's third best pitch for the second time in a crucial at-bat when the first one produced almost disastrous results? Even Hawk blurted out that the call was hard-headed.

Pierzynski continues to made bad calls in crucial situations. I've seen more bad calls by him this year than in all of his other seasons for us put together.

Also, Pierzynski was a jag today when Guillen asked him to go out to the mound to give Sale a chance to warm up. Pierzynski made a quick, token visit, leaving the mound almost as soon as he got there. It looked like a blatant F.U. to Guillen/the coaching staff. Cooper had to go out to the mound to stall for time because Pierzynski chose not to do what was asked of him.

DickAllen72
06-26-2011, 05:21 PM
Incredible how the manager will, when down 1, pinch hit for the 1 guy in the 3 up in the order who can drive the ball out of the park (and who did so in the 9th inning Fri night), but won't touch the slap hitter.
What an absolute anchor on this team.
Also, when your bench bat is, essentially, a utility player, that indicates another problem on the team.
Yep, he wouldn't even consider saving a PH for Pierre who was due up third in the inning.

Ozzie batting Dunn fifth in the lineup is also a terrible decision.

I wish they would just fire Walker and Ozzie already.

Crooked Number
06-26-2011, 05:22 PM
Hawk said tip your cap. :angry:

Adam Dunn is not going to break out of this folks. He is in the worst slump I have ever witnessed. It's not even a slump, because he was never doing good in the first place. It's just a freefall. Another four k game. I feel like the guy from the princess bride who says "INCONCIEVABLE!!!" when watching him bat.

Lip, it's time to post the awful stats....how many games the sox have scored less than three, how many times they have lost when holding an opponent to less than three, and the percentage of how many games total they have scored less than three. It's getting close to 50 percent.

Another quality start from this stellar staff. Such a waste of a baseball season. This team should be at least tied for the division lead, so frustrating. So frustrating. Nothing more.

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:23 PM
Like Harry Caray used to say, ''they just put his average on the board but I'm not going to mention it, why embarrass him any more"

Ha! Dunn is lucky Harry (the White Sox version) and Jimmy are not around to
"critique".

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2011, 05:25 PM
Ha! Dunn is lucky Harry (the White Sox version) and Jimmy are not around to
"critique".
That would be real ugly.

Lip Man 1
06-26-2011, 05:25 PM
10th game this year the Sox have lost when allowing three runs or less.

8th game this year the Sox lost when taking a lead into the 7th inning or later.

1-7 with RISP, but some folks don't think that's a problem because it's "close to the league average..." :?:

This offense blows, and Greg Walker for right or wrong is part of the problem.

Lip

Zakath
06-26-2011, 05:25 PM
Add up Dunn's hits, runs scored, HR, and RBI this year, and they don't equal his number of K's.

Not all strikeouts are equal, but hitting .145 with RISP ain't cutting it. 62 AB's with RISP, and he's K'ed 31 times.

I was on record last year saying that I really didn't want Dunn, but damn, it's 10x worse than I thought it would be.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 05:25 PM
10/54 with RISP on the homestand.

That's a solid .185.

Yeah, Greg Walker sure has made some strides.

Tragg
06-26-2011, 05:26 PM
No, Ozzie is saying on the postgame show right now that he will see playing time.

Good Lord.
Thanks

I need some comedic relief after this game.

PeteWard
06-26-2011, 05:27 PM
10/54 with RISP on the homestand.

That's a solid .185.

Yeah, Greg Walker sure has made some strides.

I really don't see what the Sox have to lose by getting a new hitting coach.

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:28 PM
When will the Sox make it to .500? Ever?

I think this is the 4th time we have gotten to 2 games under only to stink it up.

We are absolutely wasting Viciedo in AAA. He would be our 2nd best hitter on the team most likely. I am worried because every hiitter, even the very good ones, go through peaks and valleys during the season. Viciedo has been on fire and we are WASTING it. Just our luck when they finally do call him up he will start into a valley and end up on the bench.

sunofgold
06-26-2011, 05:28 PM
I am not giving up on Pierre but he is a FA next year. Might be a guy that could be moved. Any team (probably NL) looking for somebody like Pierre. Open up LF/RF for the Tank. However, we wouldn't have a lead off hitter if Pierre was traded.

Or any team want Teahen? He would be harder to move b/c he has years on his contract.

Put Dunn on the DL soon with a "phantom" injury.

What moves are left besides Waiting for Godot..I mean Dunn.

SoxSpeed22
06-26-2011, 05:30 PM
Nice job Sale. And you wonder why some of us haven't bought in to this team, because they can throw out stinkers like this at any time.

soltrain21
06-26-2011, 05:30 PM
To right. Nothing but a frozen rope was going out to left.

Mark would be going out to right...

MeteorsSox4367
06-26-2011, 05:31 PM
Someone posted something earlier about the Sox being "baseball stupid."

Alexei bats for Beckham and on the first bleeping pitch hits a bleeping popup that wouldn't have been a home run in bleeping Williamsport.

Pinch-hitter swinging at the first pitch when he's the tying run. That's some sound bleeping baseball strategy right there.

There are times when I really hate this bleeping team and its lack of common baseball sense.

BTW, how dare Humber think he can have a no-hitter into the sixth, make one bad pitch, give up two runs and think he should have won the game.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 05:31 PM
I am not giving up on Pierre but he is a FA next year. Might be a guy that could be moved. Any team (probably NL) looking for somebody like Pierre. Open up LF/RF for the Tank. However, we wouldn't have a lead off hitter if Pierre was traded.

Or any team want Teahen? He would be harder to move b/c he has years on his contract.

Put Dunn on the DL soon with a "phantom" injury.

What moves are left besides Waiting for Godot..I mean Dunn.

I don't think there's anybody looking for someone like Pierre. He's still one of the worst players in all of baseball at the moment.

I seriously wonder if this is it for him.

His one asset was speed and now it appears he's lost a step or two.

Would not be surprised if he retires after this season, or is at least relegated back to the bench.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:31 PM
AJ's average is up above .290. I think he needs up move up in the order. I like Morel hitting second. Paulie is leading the team in batting average, so he should be hitting third. Quentin is good with runners on base, so he should be in more of an RBI slot, like cleanup. Pierre needs to go away (as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) and Viciedo needs to come up to split DH duties with Dunn, and also play a little bit of RF. Lillibridge can get most of the starts in LF, with Teahen also getting occasional starts in LF and RF. Shuffle the lineup this way:

Alexei (.342 OBP is fourth on the team)
Morel (hits to the right side of the field quite well)
Paulie (highest average and SLG on the team)
Quentin (.529 SLG is second on the team)
AJ (.296 AVG is second on the team)
Rios
Dunn / Viciedo
Beckham
Teahen / Lillibridge

FielderJones
06-26-2011, 05:31 PM
I really don't see what the Sox have to lose by getting a new hitting coach.

If Dunn won't work with a hitting coach, they have nothing to gain either.

LITTLE NELL
06-26-2011, 05:32 PM
Someone posted something earlier about the Sox being "baseball stupid."

Alexei bats for Beckham and on the first bleeping pitch hits a bleeping popup that wouldn't have been a home run in bleeping Williamsport.

Pinch-hitter swinging at the first pitch when he's the tying run. That's some sound bleeping baseball strategy right there.

There are times when I really hate this bleeping team and its lack of common baseball sense.

BTW, how dare Humber think he can have a no-hitter into the sixth, make one bad pitch, give up two runs and think he should have won the game.

No doubt about it, when it comes to situational hitting we are the dumbest team ever, since the middle of 2006 anyway. PK is the only one who has a clue.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 05:33 PM
Nice job Sale. And you wonder why some of us haven't bought in to this team, because they can throw out stinkers like this at any time.

Even their wins suck.

They don't win enough games convincingly. For the most part, they always seem to have struggles both offensively and defensively which still leave teams within striking distance. They don't know how to deliver that knockout punch.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 05:36 PM
I really don't see what the Sox have to lose by getting a new hitting coach.

Why, they would lose the most loyal, hardest-working hitting coach in the MLB. After all, being loyal and working hard are the only two things on which it is fair to evaluate a hitting coach, because he is most certainly NOT responsible for helping the hitters in any way whatsoever. Indeed, if the Sox hitters didn't learn to make adjustments in the minors or with their former teams, it's not the Sox hitting coach's job to teach them to make adjustments. It's clear you didn't play baseball, because obviously you have no idea what a hitting coach's job is, or what he's supposed to do.

:rolleyes:

MeteorsSox4367
06-26-2011, 05:37 PM
Is Brian Daubach still available?

LOL. Nice. Jeff Abbott used to hit some line drives, too. Where the hell is he? Is he busy?

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:38 PM
AJ's average is up above .290. I think he needs up move up in the order. I like Morel hitting second. Paulie is leading the team in batting average, so he should be hitting third. Quentin is good with runners on base, so he should be in more of an RBI slot, like cleanup. Pierre needs to go away (as has been discussed ad nauseum elsewhere) and Viciedo needs to come up to split DH duties with Dunn, and also play a little bit of RF. Lillibridge can get most of the starts in LF, with Teahen also getting occasional starts in LF and RF. Shuffle the lineup this way:

Alexei (.342 OBP is fourth on the team)
Morel (hits to the right side of the field quite well)
Paulie (highest average and SLG on the team)
Quentin (.529 SLG is second on the team)
AJ (.296 AVG is second on the team)
Rios
Dunn / Viciedo
Beckham
Teahen / Lillibridge

Frater, I agree with most of this but I would split anything with Dunn (he needs to go away - bench - dl). I wouyld tweak this way

Alexei SS
Morel 3B
Paulie 1B
Quentin LF
Viciedo DH
Aj C
Rios RF
Beckham 2B
Lillibridge CF

Teahan can spot start for any number of guys on occasion, Pierre can rot, Dunn can go away, Omar can spell the inf's on occasion, and Castro backs up AJ once or twice a week.

Maybe even get rid of Pierre (DFA) and bring up Danks for late inning defense and occasional pinch running

Dunn to the DL is so obvious I shouldnt have to even mention it.

chisoxfanatic
06-26-2011, 05:38 PM
Add up Dunn's hits, runs scored, HR, and RBI this year, and they don't equal his number of K's.

Not all strikeouts are equal, but hitting .145 with RISP ain't cutting it. 62 AB's with RISP, and he's K'ed 31 times.

I was on record last year saying that I really didn't want Dunn, but damn, it's 10x worse than I thought it would be.
What an awesome time for him to get benched for a week. He has no business in the lineup in NL ballparks.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Why, they would lose the most loyal, hardest-working hitting coach in the MLB. After all, being loyal and working hard are the only two things on which it is fair to evaluate a hitting coach, because he is most certainly NOT responsible for helping the hitters in any way whatsoever. Indeed, if the Sox hitters didn't learn to make adjustments in the minors or with their former teams, it's not the Sox hitting coach's job to teach them to make adjustments. It's clear you didn't play baseball, because obviously you have no idea what a hitting coach's job is, or what he's supposed to do.

:rolleyes:

Ever think that these guys egos are so big they're just not listening? They all have long term contracts so why should they care??

Lip Man 1
06-26-2011, 05:39 PM
Since the Sox completed that stretch where they played 30 road games out of 42 and many were hoping they'd get a boost by starting to play home games...well that hasn't happened yet...9-7.

Not much of a boost.

Lip

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:39 PM
No doubt about it, when it comes to situational hitting we are the dumbest team ever, since the middle of 2006 anyway. PK is the only one who has a clue.

Morel tries to situation hit and Beckham does sometimes too, but that is about it. Paulie is the only one who executes it regularly.

Even Omar "the wily veteran" failed to move the runner in the first and cost us a run. Shows that the team dosent even focus on it when Omar fails

StillMissOzzie
06-26-2011, 05:40 PM
Another great starter's performance wasted.
More opportunities wasted.
Dunn racks up another golden sombrero.
Another microcosm of your 2011 White Sox.

SMO
:angry::whiner:

Edit: Cheated Dunn out of a K.

kufram
06-26-2011, 05:40 PM
It's starting to look like Dunn is more of a problem then Pierre. He's hitting below .180! This is your 56 million dollar man right here.

Dunn has always been more of a problem than Pierre and that is not to be confused with me backing Pierre, but he has contributed occasionally.

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:41 PM
What an awesome time for him to get benched for a week. He has no business in the lineup in NL ballparks.

Which makes this the perfect time to DL him and bring up a bat!!!! He is gonna just sit anyway, how can this organization be so stupid, other teams would have done this by now it is so freakin obvious.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 05:43 PM
Which makes this the perfect time to DL him and bring up a bat!!!! He is gonna just sit anyway, how can this organization be so stupid, other teams would have done this by now it is so freakin obvious.

You can't DL him without an injury

Dunn has always been more of a problem than Pierre and that is not to be confused with me backing Pierre, but he has contributed occasionally.

Pierre isn't tied to a contract for the next three seasons. Dunn is.

You kind of have to keep playing Dunn and hope he comes out of it.

You can cut your losses with Pierre considering his contract is up after this season, but Ozzie is too damned stubborn.

Soxfest
06-26-2011, 05:44 PM
Walker and Dunn love there checks on the 15th and 30th keep showing up at the park thank you that is all.:angry:

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:45 PM
I think the AL Central being so bad is causing more complacency (There is plenty of time they will say - only 4.5 out). We should easily be in first place with the pitching we have gotten so far this season.

Cleveland is toast - free fall continues. Detroit wins a few and loses a few when Verlander dosent pitch. Minnesota made a little run but has now lost 5 in a row again, lost Morneau, Mauer is a mess, D Young hurt, they are done. And KC, well after a fun start they have settle into to their usual spot of the worst record in the league.

We should be cruising the division title.

Hitmen77
06-26-2011, 05:46 PM
Just wait until we play NL teams. The Sox will totally catch fire then!

Why do some people in this organization still have jobs?

...because there's no accountability. Walker has the ultimate job security. If the hitter succeed under his watch, he's great. If they continue to flounder, it's not his fault whatsoever.

I wonder why fans aren't showing up and getting behind this team?

billyvsox
06-26-2011, 05:47 PM
[QUOTE=JermaineDye05;2780250]You can't DL him without an injury

Sure you can .... teams do it all the time. You just have to get Dunn (and his agent) to buy into it. He still gets paid

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 05:47 PM
I think the AL Central being so bad is causing more complacency (There is plenty of time they will say - only 4.5 out). We should easily be in first place with the pitching we have gotten so far this season.

Cleveland is toast - free fall continues. Detroit wins a few and loses a few when Verlander dosent pitch. Minnesota made a little run but has now lost 5 in a row again, lost Morneau, Mauer is a mess, D Young hurt, they are done. And KC, well after a fun start they have settle into to their usual spot of the worst record in the league.

We should be cruising the division title.

^^^this^^^

We should be 10 games up right now...I guess 125 mil doesn't buy as much as it used to...

chisoxfanatic
06-26-2011, 05:50 PM
^^^this^^^

We should be 10 games up right now...I guess 125 mil doesn't buy as much as it used to...
It would if they would play to their capabilities, now, right?

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 05:50 PM
A .500 homestand might be passable if you're facing the Red Sox and the Yankees.

This was the ****ing Cubs and Nationals.

What an embarrassment.

chisoxfanatic
06-26-2011, 05:51 PM
A .500 homestand might be passable if you're facing the Red Sox and the Yankees.

This was the ****ing Cubs and Nationals.

What an embarrassment.
But, but, but the Nationals have been extremely hot lately. You can do nothing but tip your cap to them.

TheOldRoman
06-26-2011, 05:54 PM
If Dunn won't work with a hitting coach, they have nothing to gain either.What is this based off of? Are the Sox planting "Dunn won't listen to our precious little Walker" stories already? I haven't heard of them yet, but it wouldn't be surprising. Eerily enough, I slightly feared that Dunn's tenure here would end up like that of another strikeout-walk-or-homer hitter - Nick Swisher. First off, yes, Swisher was a piece of crap. However, Walker messed him up so badly for the year that he was a lost cause. He struggled so much that the Sox starter going through anonymous sources to tell the press Swisher wasn't listening to Walker because they wanted to cover Walker's ass. I felt that was bull all along. Swisher and Dunn's talents don't mesh with Walker's coaching. I mean, you take two all or nothing, swing from the shoe tops hitters, and then you send him up there was the approach of "swing from the shoe tops?" That is like dividing by zero. He might as well tell them to just close their eyes and swing.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 05:55 PM
It would if they would play to their capabilities, now, right?

Well apparently they are all mental midgets...do they have a wunderlic test for baseball players?

shingo10
06-26-2011, 05:57 PM
Why can't they give Walker a job in the front office or in the clubhouse or something and replace him? You can stay loyal and still get rid of him.

Just for the mental aspect of this team. Apparently they need something else and won't fight for anything on their own so SOMEBODY has to step in and do something.

soxfan1965
06-26-2011, 05:57 PM
I think Viciedo needs to come up and be the DH. Dunn needs to sit. Maybe he can get his head right and help next year.

I think Dunn should play every remaining game this year and for the next 3 years, every at bat if possible. Make lemon out of lemonade and let's try to get the ML record for K's and beyond that, shoot for 300 strikeouts. It's never been done, but it won't happen if Dunn is benched or platooned. Play him at first more often too. All would be entertaining in light of his contract situation.

Doing this will remind KW to stop making careless deals. When Adam is booed, then KW is booed too.

They're stuck with him, can't win with him, so at least make it somewhat entertaining by having records to break this year and the next three years. At best, maybe he breaks out big from his increasingly diminished skils, and is motivated to work hard in the off season.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:00 PM
I just hope Dunn actually picks up a weight and/or a bat this off season for once and not a box of krispy kremes. Put in the work!!

Damn, I hate lazy athletes!!

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 06:01 PM
Meanwhile, Don Cooper's job is still up in the air after this season.

I think this is how they run a baseball team in the Bizarro world.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:02 PM
Meanwhile, Don Cooper's job is still up in the air after this season.

I think this is how they run a baseball team in the Bizarro world.

Yea...they better be careful some well-run organization doesn't come steal him away...

Lip Man 1
06-26-2011, 06:03 PM
JB's comments in the past are proving to be completely correct. Sox haven't been one under .500 since April 17. Since then they have had four chances to return to one under...they've lost every time.

Your not going very far if you can't have a winning streak longer than four games and are in a constant win 1 lose 2 or win 4 lose 3 mode.

Lip

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-26-2011, 06:04 PM
Dunn has absolutely zero plate discipline. He's constantly 1-2, 0-2 and it seems like it's impossible for him to get a walk. Take some ****ing pitches, you don't have to swing for the fences every ****ing time.

sunofgold
06-26-2011, 06:07 PM
That is what frustrates me. Hasn't he seen these pitchers before and watched them all season last year. Doesn't playing your previous team motivate most players? This is why Dunn is our biggest problem. And this isn't based on his physical size. lol.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:07 PM
Dunn has absolutely zero plate discipline. He's constantly 1-2, 0-2 and it seems like it's impossible for him to get a walk. Take some ****ing pitches, you don't have to swing for the fences every ****ing time.

His last at bat he took the first two...then he was 0-2 :(

sullythered
06-26-2011, 06:08 PM
JB's comments in the past are proving to be completely correct. Sox haven't been one under .500 since April 17. Since then they have had four chances to return to one under...they've lost every time.

Your not going very far if you can't have a winning streak longer than four games and are in a constant win 1 lose 2 or win 4 lose 3 mode.

Lip

Win 4, lose 3 mode would be fine if we hadn't been in win 1, lose 2 mode for so long.

TheOldRoman
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
I wonder why fans aren't showing up and getting behind this team?The organization decided each of the last several years that loyalty to Greg Walker was more important than winning. His staggering incompetence has cost this team time and time again. When you get a talented team underachieving to this level, you aren't going to have fans excited for coming out to the ballpark. Nobody wants to watch this crap.

As for the game today, it is a shame for Humber. There have been two things very clear about him this year - he has been great in general, and he loses it rapidly once he hits 90 pitches. He shouldn't have been put in a situation to lose the game. He should have been pulled after allowing a baserunner in the 7th. That is on Ozzie. And as for the offense, just a disgusting performance. Livan Hernandez is one of my favorite baseball players ever, but at this point in his career, he is a bad pitcher. Once again, not a very good pitcher, didn't have his best stuff today, White Sox bedazzled, etc. etc. etc. At least they have a more humiliating defeat than Liriano's no hitter now. So they've got that going for them.

Jollyroger2
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
But, but, but the Nationals have been extremely hot lately. You can do nothing but tip your cap to them.

The Nationals like I said before the series are a good pitching team. But they have problems hitting. They make up for it with opportunistic hits, stealing bases, and doing a lot of the things the Sox should be doing but aren't. The Nats are also young and spunky and look like they're enjoying competing, where the Sox look more and more like they're just going through the motions showing up.

I watched two of these games here locally on the Nats network, giving my self a weekend off from Harrelson. The Nats guys said watching Dunn both at the plate and in BP he's barely waving at the ball with a fraction of the intensity he had in DC. When he does make rare contact even in BP, he's popping balls straight up. It's time to sit him down for a long time. Even some kid from AA will occasionally get a hit or at least make contact, instead of almost being a guaranteed K.

What a disgrace. For the amount this team is paying it's players, and with the overall mediocrity of the Central, the Sox should be cleaning up and have a decent lead. But they aren't even mediocre yet.

soltrain21
06-26-2011, 06:09 PM
Dunn has absolutely zero plate discipline. He's constantly 1-2, 0-2 and it seems like it's impossible for him to get a walk. Take some ****ing pitches, you don't have to swing for the fences every ****ing time.

Dunn is leading the team in walks by like ten.

VMSNS
06-26-2011, 06:11 PM
Didn't see the game, but looking at the box score makes me want the vomit all over my computer screen. We held the Nats to just three hits, and we still lose. Why? Because our offense is downright atrocious. Dunn was 0-4 with 4 K's. He's in such a bad place right now, it's astonishing. I don't even know why I feel any kind of emotion for this team anymore. They win a few and seem like they're turning a corner, then they play a game like this and **** their pants. And the funny thing is...they won't change. This organization won't change, and REFUSES to change.

As far as I'm concerned, Kenny can go **** himself. It's insulting that he complains about attendance, as if he expects people to show up and watch this horse**** team. I'm done.

SoxSpeed22
06-26-2011, 06:11 PM
The organization decided each of the last several years that loyalty to Greg Walker was more important than winning. His staggering incompetence has cost this team time and time again. When you get a talented team underachieving to this level, you aren't going to have fans excited for coming out to the ballpark. Nobody wants to watch this crap.

As for the game today, it is a shame for Humber. There have been two things very clear about him this year - he has been great in general, and he loses it rapidly once he hits 90 pitches. He shouldn't have been put in a situation to lose the game. He should have been pulled after allowing a baserunner in the 7th. That is on Ozzie. And as for the offense, just a disgusting performance. Livan Hernandez is one of my favorite baseball players ever, but at this point in his career, he is a bad pitcher. Once again, not a very good pitcher, didn't have his best stuff today, White Sox bedazzled, etc. etc. etc. At least they have a more humiliating defeat than Liriano's no hitter now. So they've got that going for them.Let's not go nuts. We've had bad losses this season, but if anything was more humiliating than that, it would be blowing that 3 run lead against the A's in the 9th.

TheOldRoman
06-26-2011, 06:11 PM
I just hope Dunn actually picks up a weight and/or a bat this off season for once and not a box of krispy kremes. Put in the work!!

Damn, I hate lazy athletes!!:rolleyes: Not the first time this has come up. I guess Dunn is taking Bobby's place of the guy who gets fatter with every bad performance. Dunn isn't going to be mistaken for a body builder, but he is in the shape he's always been in. He didn't get fat, he just is struggling.

Jollyroger2
06-26-2011, 06:11 PM
The organization decided each of the last several years that loyalty to Greg Walker was more important than winning. His staggering incompetence has cost this team time and time again. When you get a talented team underachieving to this level, you aren't going to have fans excited for coming out to the ballpark. Nobody wants to watch this crap.

As for the game today, it is a shame for Humber. There have been two things very clear about him this year - he has been great in general, and he loses it rapidly once he hits 90 pitches. He shouldn't have been put in a situation to lose the game. He should have been pulled after allowing a baserunner in the 7th. That is on Ozzie. And as for the offense, just a disgusting performance. Livan Hernandez is one of my favorite baseball players ever, but at this point in his career, he is a bad pitcher. Once again, not a very good pitcher, didn't have his best stuff today, White Sox bedazzled, etc. etc. etc. At least they have a more humiliating defeat than Liriano's no hitter now. So they've got that going for them.

His win loss record is 5-8 but that's more of a testimony of the Nats not scoring enough for him. His ERA coming into today was under 4....hardly what I'd call a bad pitcher. In fact the only starter on the Nats staff with an ERA over 4 was Gorzelanny, and even he shut down the Sox yesterday.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:15 PM
:rolleyes: Not the first time this has come up. I guess Dunn is taking Bobby's place of the guy who gets fatter with every bad performance. Dunn isn't going to be mistaken for a body builder, but he is in the shape he's always been in. He didn't get fat, he just is struggling.

Beg to differ sir. I was at the d backs game and they showed a clip of him from then...he looked at least 50 pounds lighter. I though the numerous extra chins would be enough evidence for most though...

DirtySox
06-26-2011, 06:15 PM
:rolleyes: Not the first time this has come up. I guess dunn is taking bobby's place of the guy who gets fatter with every bad performance. Dunn isn't going to be mistaken for a body builder, but he is in the shape he's always been in. He didn't get fat, he just is struggling.

+1

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:16 PM
+1

Do your research fellas...google is your friend.

hi im skot
06-26-2011, 06:17 PM
Beg to differ sir. I was at the d backs game and they showed a clip of him from then...he looked at least 50 pounds lighter. I though the numerous extra chins would be enough evidence for most though...

Big is beautiful.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 06:19 PM
Big is beautiful.

Not if your a professional baseball player being paid 14 million and you've just hit the age of 30. Not gonna help stop those skills from diminishing.

Harry Potter
06-26-2011, 06:20 PM
I was always hoping they'd bring up Dayan and place him instead of Pierre.

Now, I'm thinking bring up Dayan and DH him over Dunn :angry:

tstrike2000
06-26-2011, 06:38 PM
I'd rather see Pierre at DH than Dunn. Stuck with him doesn't mean he has to play. Grab some bench Donkey.

Sad thing is is anyone would be better at DH. Adam Dunn is the worst hitter in a Sox uniform we've seen in quite some time. He's beyond sucks.

Lip Man 1
06-26-2011, 06:38 PM
Sully:

More like win four, lose 18!

:D:

Lip

tstrike2000
06-26-2011, 06:46 PM
Dunn is leading the team in walks by like ten.

Yep, at his current time Dunn is on pace to have more walks than hits by the end of the season.

balke
06-26-2011, 06:48 PM
What is this based off of? Are the Sox planting "Dunn won't listen to our precious little Walker" stories already? I haven't heard of them yet, but it wouldn't be surprising. Eerily enough, I slightly feared that Dunn's tenure here would end up like that of another strikeout-walk-or-homer hitter - Nick Swisher. First off, yes, Swisher was a piece of crap.

First off - it was reported maybe 3 weeks ago that yes - Dunn is a 'feel hitter' and will NOT work with Walker because he believes it is in his head. Then just 2 days ago the Sun Times asked Walker about Dunn and he said the problem is pretty simple - he needs to get his body in position to hit. Since he's not taking mechanical advice - I doubt he's listening.


Secondly - I don't see how a guy with 10 years in the bigs needs to have a hitting coach be the fall guy for him. Blame Walker for Beckham or praise him for Morel. I don't see how he is making Dunn the worst player since Joe Borchard.

Tragg
06-26-2011, 06:49 PM
Dunn has absolutely zero plate discipline. He's constantly 1-2, 0-2 and it seems like it's impossible for him to get a walk. Take some ****ing pitches, you don't have to swing for the fences every ****ing time.
He too pitches today - in his last at bat, he took 2 straight down the pipe, lunged for a ball in the dirt and tapped it foul, and then flailed on a 3rd pitch right down the pipe.

Zakath
06-26-2011, 06:54 PM
Yep, at his current time Dunn is on pace to have more walks than hits by the end of the season.

42 BBs vs. 40 hits currently.

Of course, together, they pale in comparison to 100 K's.

tstrike2000
06-26-2011, 06:59 PM
42 BBs vs. 40 hits currently.

Of course, together, they pale in comparison to 100 K's.

Any way you cut it, it's just sad. I like Adam Dunn the guy, but it's unbelievable right now compared to how we thought he'd be as a hitter.

balke
06-26-2011, 07:00 PM
42 BBs vs. 40 hits currently.

Of course, together, they pale in comparison to 100 K's.

That's exactly why he should've never been brought in. This team doesn't have any hitters for average to move a high OBP guy along. Very frustrating signing. HAD to get a power lefty to balance out the lineup - meanwhile nobody in the lineup besides PK can be depended on to produce consistantly - and even he has a history of deep slumps. Now PK is hitting like an MVP - and any pitcher can just walk him if they get in a jam.

Red Barchetta
06-26-2011, 07:03 PM
I really can't think of any other hitter/position player in recent years who has fallen off so much from his career average without an injury.

Seriously, is there a chance to trade Dunn to a National League team who perhaps has an underperforming former AL player?

I am so ready for Viciedo and Lillibridge to take over the Dunn and Pierre.

Zakath
06-26-2011, 07:04 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if there's ever been another player in MLB history who's struck out 100 times before July 1.

NLaloosh
06-26-2011, 07:09 PM
Who's the dumbass that keeps batting Dunn fifth? Shouldn't he be responsible for the loss?

RTI_SoxFan
06-26-2011, 07:11 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if there's ever been another player in MLB history who's struck out 100 times before July 1.

I'm still looking for that stat, but Dunn is on pace for 2nd most in a season ever.

STRIKEOUTS YEAR SO
1 Mark Reynolds 2008 204 (He has broken the record since now it is 224 in 2009)
2 Ryan Howard 2007 and 2008 199
3 Adam Dunn 2004 195
4 Adam Dunn 2006 194
5 Bobby Bonds 1970 189
6 Jose Hernandez 2002 188
T7 Bobby Bonds 1969 187
T7 Preston Wilson 2000 187
8 Rob Deer 1987 186
T9 Pete Incaviglia 1986 185
T9 Jose Hernandez 2001 185
T9 Jim Thome 2001 185

CubsfansareDRUNK
06-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Apparently I was wrong about Dunn...I guess he can take walks. I didn't know he was leading the team.

RTI_SoxFan
06-26-2011, 07:15 PM
I'm still looking for that stat, but Dunn is on pace for 2nd most in a season ever.

STRIKEOUTS YEAR SO
1 Mark Reynolds 2008 204 (He has broken the record since now it is 224 in 2009)
2 Ryan Howard 2007 and 2008 199
3 Adam Dunn 2004 195
4 Adam Dunn 2006 194
5 Bobby Bonds 1970 189
6 Jose Hernandez 2002 188
T7 Bobby Bonds 1969 187
T7 Preston Wilson 2000 187
8 Rob Deer 1987 186
T9 Pete Incaviglia 1986 185
T9 Jose Hernandez 2001 185
T9 Jim Thome 2001 185

If my count is accurate, Reynolds struck out 103 times through July 1st in his record breaking season.

Patrick134
06-26-2011, 07:18 PM
Anxiously waiting seeing how Dunn's K's look in the high mountain air in Colorado.

Vernam
06-26-2011, 07:22 PM
That would be real ugly.If the Internet had existed back when Caray was announcing for the Sox, this team would be somewhere other than Chicago. I still attribute a lot of the negativity to the people (inluding myself, at times) who grew up enjoying how Harry and Jimmy ripped the team when it wasn't playing well. Even with Hawk at his homer-ish worst, I don't miss those days.

That being said, Dunn is having the worst season I've witnessed by a front-line position player. He could break the single-season K record despite his DL stint. It's like watching a high school kid up there. Dunn is so awful, it actually takes heat off all the others who suck without such dramatic flair.

The kid Humber pitched his ass off again with just an L to show for it. Not much else to say except that they don't deserve to be in contention. They could still walk away with this division if they get their heads out of their asses in the next couple of weeks.

Vernam

Zakath
06-26-2011, 07:29 PM
If my count is accurate, Reynolds struck out 103 times through July 1st in his record breaking season.

Looks like he got his 100th on June 26 of that year, which was the 72nd game that he had appeared in that season.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/8030/gamelog;_ylt=AhqVFrrAcqGXc5MVuxNiu5.FCLcF?year=200 9

Dunn has reached 100 in 67 games.

For the record:
11 games with 0 K's
26 games with 1 K
19 games with 2 K's
8 games with 3 K's
3 games with 4 K's

slavko
06-26-2011, 07:30 PM
1-for-7 RISP.

Dunn reaches the century mark in K's, and we're not even to the halfway mark.

At least the weather was nice, and the pitching staff did its job save one mistake by Humber to Espinosa.

Great weather. Folks sitting around me were guessing called or swinging each time he stepped to the plate. That kept it interesting. Category F3 booing after #4. F5 coming later on.

This is the problem right here.

Had we executed in one of the other 6 chances we had to score runs, people wouldn't be second-guessing Ozzie leaving Pierre in with 2 outs and nobody on.

That's what I saw. No situational hitting. Left the game on the bases.

The comment about AJ calling the same pitch that Espinosa had hit out but foul a minute earlier was right on. How many times does a hitter hit one out after a long but foul one? Should not happen. And you who wanted Humber pulled with a one hitter: You won't see that happen much either.

TomBradley72
06-26-2011, 07:45 PM
I'm not a Walker "fan"- but I just think he's the least of our problems.

Pierre is washed up- it's nice he got 2 hits today- but if the guy can't steal bases he's not a starter on a contending team- 6 stolen bases since May 1.

Adam Dunn's performance is not Walker's fault- there were red flags about him before he was signed- all of his "drama" about the DH role, his career average w/RISP (.230's), his career average vs. lefties (.230's), his high strike out rate, etc.

Alex Rios is not Walker's fault- this is the guy who as hitting .199 when KW took on his $15M/yr, long term contract- if Walker really has any impact- then he was the same guy who helped Rios have a solid season last year.

Beckham is not Walker's fault- before he was drafted alot of scouts had big concerns about his "long" swing/hitch- he's in his 3rd season in the bigs and shows no real signs of progressing.

Viciedo wasting away at AAA is not Walker's fault- KW is the GM- he accountable for him still being at Charlotte- whether it's the time to free agency or capitulating to OG- KW's in charge- it's his call.

KW signed all of these players- all with red flags and warning signs. He used to be a creative dealer/trader- but in the last few years- he's moved to general management by checkbook (i.e. Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Teahen, Pierre)- all overpriced veterans- while leaving us with a barren farm system.

I'm not happy with Ozzie or Walker- but flawed roster construction is the biggest reason we are where we are and where we have been since mid-2006.

A. Cavatica
06-26-2011, 07:48 PM
You can't DL him without an injury

Fractured psyche.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 07:49 PM
I'm not a Walker "fan"- but I just think he's the least of our problems.

Pierre is washed up- it's nice he got 2 hits today- but if the guy can't steal bases he's not a starter on a contending team- 6 stolen bases since May 1.

Adam Dunn's performance is not Walker's fault- there were red flags about him before he was signed- all of his "drama" about the DH role, his career average w/RISP (.230's), his career average vs. lefties (.230's), his high strike out rate, etc.

Alex Rios is not Walker's fault- this is the guy who as hitting .199 when KW took on his $15M/yr, long term contract- if Walker really has any impact- then he was the same guy who helped Rios have a solid season last year.

Beckham is not Walker's fault- before he was drafted alot of scouts had big concerns about his "long" swing/hitch- he's in his 3rd season in the bigs and shows no real signs of progressing.

Viciedo wasting away at AAA is not Walker's fault- KW is the GM- he accountable for him still being at Charlotte- whether it's the time to free agency or capitulating to OG- KW's in charge- it's his call.

KW signed all of these players- all with red flags and warning signs. He used to be a creative dealer/trader- but in the last few years- he's moved to general management by checkbook (i.e. Dunn, Rios, Peavy, Teahen, Pierre)- all overpriced veterans- while leaving us with a barren farm system.

I'm not happy with Ozzie or Walker- but flawed roster construction is the biggest reason we are where we are and where we have been since mid-2006.

I don't know. I think you could make a pretty good argument that he's the root of this team's offensive struggles for the past 5+ years.

Daver
06-26-2011, 07:52 PM
I don't know. I think you could make a pretty good argument that he's the root of this team's offensive struggles for the past 5+ years.


How, exactly?

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 08:06 PM
The Sox have basically been playing without a DH for most of the season. May as well let the pitchers hit, we all know how much Ozzie loves NL-style ball.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 08:07 PM
I don't know. I think you could make a pretty good argument that he's the root of this team's offensive struggles for the past 5+ years.
I'd love to see that argument. As your math teachers used to say, "show your work."

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 08:34 PM
I don't know. I think you could make a pretty good argument that he's the root of this team's offensive struggles for the past 5+ years.

Ok...then let's see you actually make that argument...

captain54
06-26-2011, 08:35 PM
How, exactly?

If Walker isn't the problem, why don't you school us as to how you think Walker is the answer?

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 08:36 PM
I invite you to school us as to how exactly Walker IS the answer to this mess.
Paul Konerko seems to be cured of his annual 3 month slumps. He says Walker is the reason why. Can you show us otherwise?

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 08:41 PM
How, exactly?

Despite two complete turnovers of the position players on the roster since winning the World Series, other than AJ and PK, the team's hitters continue to suffer months-long slumps to open each season, continue to suck at hitting fundamentals, including hitting behind the runner, hitting to the right side, hitting sac flies, bunting, shortening the swing with two strikes.

Don't blame the minor league system; Morel and Lillibridge are the only Sox regulars who have spent much time in the Sox minor league system, other than injury rehab assignments. Beckham was there for 59 games. Everyone else came from somewhere else.

They've tried changing players multiple times, and yet they get the same results, year after year after year after year after year.

How about trying a different hitting coach?

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 08:43 PM
Paul Konerko seems to be cured of his annual 3 month slumps. He says Walker is the reason why. Can you show us otherwise?

PK is the exception that proves the rule. No one else can cite any other player who has said Greg Walker had a positive impact on his hitting.

Daver
06-26-2011, 08:50 PM
If Walker isn't the problem, why don't you school us as to how you think Walker is the answer?

I never said he was, and don't put words in my mouth, it's really not a good habit to develop.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 08:51 PM
Despite two complete turnovers of the position players on the roster since winning the World Series, other than AJ and PK, the team's hitters continue to suffer months-long slumps to open each season, continue to suck at hitting fundamentals, including hitting behind the runner, hitting to the right side, hitting sac flies, bunting, shortening the swing with two strikes.

Don't blame the minor league system; Morel and Lillibridge are the only Sox regulars who have spent much time in the Sox minor league system, other than injury rehab assignments. Beckham was there for 59 games. Everyone else came from somewhere else.

They've tried changing players multiple times, and yet they get the same results, year after year after year after year after year.

How about trying a different hitting coach?

I completely forgot that no other team in MLB has experienced the grievances you list.

PK is the exception that proves the rule. No one else can cite any other player who has said Greg Walker had a positive impact on his hitting.
You're right. There is a legal requirement for all MLB players to publicly state who it is/was who helped them improve their game. Since nobody else issued their required press release praising Walker, then I guess he never even helped an old lady cross a busy street.

Daver
06-26-2011, 08:52 PM
Despite two complete turnovers of the position players on the roster since winning the World Series, other than AJ and PK, the team's hitters continue to suffer months-long slumps to open each season, continue to suck at hitting fundamentals, including hitting behind the runner, hitting to the right side, hitting sac flies, bunting, shortening the swing with two strikes.


Exactly what is Walker doing wrong that is causing this?

johnnyg83
06-26-2011, 08:58 PM
I really don't see what the Sox have to lose by getting a new hitting coach.

To me, that's the crux. He may not be the whole problem, but he sure as **** ain't the solution.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:00 PM
I completely forgot that no other team in MLB has experienced the grievances you list.

You're right. There is a legal requirement for all MLB players to publicly state who it is/was who helped them improve their game. Since nobody else issued their required press release praising Walker, then I guess he never even helped an old lady cross a busy street.

Other teams often fire their hitting coaches when their players fail to hit. Often, not always, but often, replacing the hitting coach results in the hitters hitting better.

I don't expect/want/need press releases. But is there any evidence of any player other than Paulie singing Walker's praises?

By comparison, I've heard/read/seen (through the media, obviously) many examples of hitters, broadcasters and other coaches praising the work of Rudy Jaramillo, Gene Tenace and Clint Hurdle, for example. And the hitters and teams they work with often - not always - but often produce better results than Walker's hitters.

shingo10
06-26-2011, 09:01 PM
For a good laugh check out the threads from last July at the trade deadline. So many people begging Kenny to get Dunn.

I never wanted him last year but I was very excited when we got him in the offseason. Really hope things turn around soon for him. This is beyond awful.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:03 PM
Exactly what is Walker doing wrong that is causing this?

I have no idea. I'm not in the hitting cages or on the field. I only know that the results have been disappointing, considering the raw hitting talent that is on this team, and has been on this team in different combinations, since 2007.

I might ask you what exactly Walker is doing right or doing well?

captain54
06-26-2011, 09:03 PM
I never said he was, and don't put words in my mouth, it's really not a good habit to develop.

allow me to rephrase the question....Where do you see Greg Walker being the answer to the current Sox offensive dilemna?

Daver
06-26-2011, 09:12 PM
I'll ask again....Where do you see Greg Walker being the answer to the current Sox offensive dilemna?

And I'll tell you again, I never said or implied he was. Remember that whole putting words in mouth thing, I wasn't kidding.

I'm still waiting on everyone that wants his head on a platter to explain to me exactly what they think he is doing wrong, and the towering baseball intellects here have given me absolutely nothing outside of I don't know.

Everyone on the fire Walker bandwagon has no idea what he actually does, but they are expert enough to know he should lose his job because of it.

I find it amusing actually.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 09:15 PM
ugh...this whole hitting coach rambling makes me weary...I know all of you older folks here know that there never even used to be a hitting coach not too long ago...

Look at the obscene amount of money the northside club gave to the supposed "best hitting coach in the game" and what has it done for them???

Sox35th
06-26-2011, 09:16 PM
Why don't they just send Dunn down to Charlotte for 6-7 games or more?

Let him play 1st and working on his hitting down there....when he is above .260 bring him back up.

DickAllen72
06-26-2011, 09:17 PM
ugh...this whole hitting coach rambling makes me weary...I know all of you older folks here know that there never even used to be a hitting coach not too long ago...

Look at the obscene amount of money the northside club gave to the supposed "best hitting coach in the game" and what has it done for them???
Aren't they one of the best hitting teams in the NL? :?:

Daver
06-26-2011, 09:18 PM
Why don't they just send Dunn down to Charlotte for 6-7 games or more?

Let him play 1st and working on his hitting down there....when he is above .260 bring him back up.


Because they can't, it's a violation of his rights under the CBA, they would have to release him and still pay his full contract.

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 09:28 PM
And I'll tell you again, I never said or implied he was. Remember that whole putting words in mouth thing, I wasn't kidding.

I'm still waiting on everyone that wants his head on a platter to explain to me exactly what they think he is doing wrong, and the towering baseball intellects here have given me absolutely nothing outside of I don't know.

Everyone on the fire Walker bandwagon has no idea what he actually does, but they are expert enough to know he should lose his job because of it.

I find it amusing actually.
All one can do is go by results, like in most businesses. And the results for the past 5 1/2 years have been horrendous. Either Walker needs to go, or KW for assembling this mess.

captain54
06-26-2011, 09:29 PM
Everyone on the fire Walker bandwagon has no idea what he actually does, but they are expert enough to know he should lose his job because of it.

I find it amusing actually.

The Fire Walker chatter would probably subside if someone, somewhere could come up with what exactly Walker is bringing to the table to help matters, but so far that hasn't happened.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:30 PM
Aren't they one of the best hitting teams in the NL? :?:

The Cubs are tied for fourth in the majors (second in the NL) in batting average, despite having a roster full of young players. They trail only Boston, St. Louis and Detroit. They are tied with Texas.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 09:31 PM
Aren't they one of the best hitting teams in the NL? :?:


yeah...i guessed on that one, based on their record...i dont watch or follow much NL baseball :redface:

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:34 PM
yeah...i guessed on that one, based on their record...i dont watch or follow much NL baseball :redface:

The Cubs don't have much power or speed, or take many walks. But despite playing in a home park with very small gaps, they hit for a good average. I think Jaramillo has something to do with that.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 09:34 PM
The Cubs are tied for fourth in the majors (second in the NL) in batting average, despite having a roster full of young players. They trail only Boston, St. Louis and Detroit. They are tied with Texas.


and they were 16th last year and 26th in '09...so?

Daver
06-26-2011, 09:36 PM
The Fire Walker chatter would probably subside if someone, somewhere could come up with what exactly Walker is bringing to the table to help matters, but so far that hasn't happened.

So you want someone to explain what the hitting coaches job is so you can dissect it and try and formulate a new point other than I Don't Know?


With a little research you can learn these answers.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:37 PM
and they were 16th last year and 26th in '09...so?

26th to 16th to 4th? I'd call that a significant improvement trend. You just helped prove my point that Jaramillo is having a significant, long-term positive impact.

johnnyg83
06-26-2011, 09:38 PM
The Cubs don't have much power or speed, or take many walks. But despite playing in a home park with very small gaps, they hit for a good average. I think Jaramillo has something to do with that.

Right. Cubs need to fire their pitching coach 30 of 30 in the MLB in ERA (and that's in the NL) not their hitting coach.

SoxSpeed22
06-26-2011, 09:40 PM
That lineup is full of guys who are either too old or too young. They've also had trouble with runners in scoring position, but since putting Castro in the 3 spot, they have been better.
I still think we're a badly coached team, and I think this current management and coaching staff have gone past their shelf life.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 09:41 PM
26th to 16th to 4th? I'd call that a significant improvement trend. You just helped prove my point that Jaramillo is having a significant, long-term positive impact.


Not that simple...you might want to examine the roster differences first...

NLaloosh
06-26-2011, 09:42 PM
i'm not a walker "fan"- but i just think he's the least of our problems.

Pierre is washed up- it's nice he got 2 hits today- but if the guy can't steal bases he's not a starter on a contending team- 6 stolen bases since may 1.

Adam dunn's performance is not walker's fault- there were red flags about him before he was signed- all of his "drama" about the dh role, his career average w/risp (.230's), his career average vs. Lefties (.230's), his high strike out rate, etc.

Alex rios is not walker's fault- this is the guy who as hitting .199 when kw took on his $15m/yr, long term contract- if walker really has any impact- then he was the same guy who helped rios have a solid season last year.

Beckham is not walker's fault- before he was drafted alot of scouts had big concerns about his "long" swing/hitch- he's in his 3rd season in the bigs and shows no real signs of progressing.

Viciedo wasting away at aaa is not walker's fault- kw is the gm- he accountable for him still being at charlotte- whether it's the time to free agency or capitulating to og- kw's in charge- it's his call.

Kw signed all of these players- all with red flags and warning signs. He used to be a creative dealer/trader- but in the last few years- he's moved to general management by checkbook (i.e. Dunn, rios, peavy, teahen, pierre)- all overpriced veterans- while leaving us with a barren farm system.

I'm not happy with ozzie or walker- but flawed roster construction is the biggest reason we are where we are and where we have been since mid-2006.

+ 1

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 09:44 PM
+ 1


EXACTLY...98% of the problem is a bad job by Kenny with the roster....

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 09:52 PM
Not that simple...you might want to examine the roster differences first...

It looks to me like the Cubs have several young players and journeyman, among their position players. Fukudome, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Baker and Hill have been constants since 2009. It's not like they went out and acquired a bunch of hitters who hit for high average.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:04 PM
It looks to me like the Cubs have several young players and journeyman, among their position players. Fukudome, Ramirez, Soriano, Soto, Baker and Hill have been constants since 2009. It's not like they went out and acquired a bunch of hitters who hit for high average.

The guys you mentioned are all average to above average "average" hitters and most importantly...they have some kids that will actually listen to a hitting coach...

The problem with the white sox is this team is full of veteran "know it alls"...

If they need help with something, they go to walker and he gives them his input...

If they dont ask for help, he leaves them alone...thats the way it works...

So if someone...like dunn, is struggling and doesnt ask walker for help...thats on the player, NOT the coach. Firing him will do NOTHING but piss off your best hitter..

A. Cavatica
06-26-2011, 10:04 PM
And I'll tell you again, I never said or implied he was. Remember that whole putting words in mouth thing, I wasn't kidding.

I'm still waiting on everyone that wants his head on a platter to explain to me exactly what they think he is doing wrong, and the towering baseball intellects here have given me absolutely nothing outside of I don't know.

Everyone on the fire Walker bandwagon has no idea what he actually does, but they are expert enough to know he should lose his job because of it.

I find it amusing actually.

Results speak volumes.

Daver
06-26-2011, 10:08 PM
Results speak volumes.

About what?

Results in and of themselves paint with a broad brush, if you want to act on that and that alone, then everyone, from the beer vendors to the chairman need to go.

See, I can make broad general statements that have no real basis in fact or reality just like the Greg Walker Kicked My Dog Club.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:10 PM
The guys you mentioned are all average to above average "average" hitters and most importantly...they have some kids that will actually listen to a hitting coach...

The problem with the white sox is this team is full of veteran "know it alls"...

If they need help with something, they go to walker and he gives them his input...

If they dont ask for help, he leaves them alone...thats the way it works...

So if someone...like dunn, is struggling and doesnt ask walker for help...thats on the player, NOT the coach. Firing him will do NOTHING but piss off your best hitter..

Maybe the Cubs hitters listen to Jaramillo because he has a great reputation as someone who actually helps them hit better?

On the other hand, has anyone ever heard from anyone - other than Hawk - that Greg Walker has a league-wide reputation of being a great hitting coach?

If PK wants to continue working with Walker on his own, fine, he can be Paulie's personal hitting coach. But let's find someone else who can actually help the other guys learn to hit soft-tossers, lefties, curveballs, off-speed pitches, and teach them NOT to swing at sliders in the dirt.

canOcorn
06-26-2011, 10:10 PM
It was a great game to watch thanks to the two starting pitchers.

Unfortunately, Pierzynski made another horrible pitch call on the home run that wound up costing us the game. Why would you call for Humber's third best pitch for the second time in a crucial at-bat when the first one produced almost disastrous results? Even Hawk blurted out that the call was hard-headed.

Pierzynski continues to made bad calls in crucial situations. I've seen more bad calls by him this year than in all of his other seasons for us put together.

Also, Pierzynski was a jag today when Guillen asked him to go out to the mound to give Sale a chance to warm up. Pierzynski made a quick, token visit, leaving the mound almost as soon as he got there. It looked like a blatant F.U. to Guillen/the coaching staff. Cooper had to go out to the mound to stall for time because Pierzynski chose not to do what was asked of him.

It's just further evidence that Ozzie has lost the team and they tune him out. Just fire this clown shoes wearing anchor already!

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:11 PM
About what?

Results in and of themselves paint with a broad brush, if you want to act on that and that alone, then everyone, from the beer vendors to the chairman need to go.

See, I can make broad general statements that have no real basis in fact or reality just like the Greg Walker Kicked My Dog Club.

No, all you do is obfuscate the issue by bringing up the beer vendors.

Actually, JR is at the core of the problem, because evidence suggests he values loyalty over performance excellence, and that has permeated the culture of this entire organization.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 10:18 PM
All this angst because Humber gave up a home run. I suppose that, too, was Walker's fault.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:19 PM
Because I think the problems are systemic, of which Greg Walker is just the most glaring example:

I think KW needs to be "promoted" to team president, where his ego will be less able to affect the construction of the roster, and Hahn named GM.

Then, I think Hahn should fire Ozzie, Walker and Cora.

Next, I think Hahn needs to hire a manager who has a proven track record of maximizing the talent of young players, stresses and drills defense and hitting fundamentals, and is a good in-game strategist.

Finally, I think Hahn needs to tell his new manager that Cooper must stay, but that the new manager is free to retain or fire any of the other coaches.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:20 PM
Maybe the Cubs hitters listen to Jaramillo because he has a great reputation as someone who actually helps them hit better?

On the other hand, has anyone ever heard from anyone - other than Hawk - that Greg Walker has a league-wide reputation of being a great hitting coach?

If PK wants to continue working with Walker on his own, fine, he can be Paulie's personal hitting coach. But let's find someone else who can actually help the other guys learn to hit soft-tossers, lefties, curveballs, off-speed pitches, and teach them NOT to swing at sliders in the dirt.

haha...sorry, i dont keep up on the reputations of hitting coaches around the league...can you even name 1 or 2 others that are so-called highly respected and have churned out a plethora of talented, multi-faceted hitters?

I would bet cash that if they do fire walker, it would make ZERO difference. It's totally on the hitters...either for not asking for help or not taking any pride in their performances.

Hitting coaches make NO difference to overall team performance...

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:21 PM
All this angst because Humber gave up a home run. I suppose that, too, was Walker's fault.

If we had won 1-0, the rage might have been suppressed for another day, but the underlying issues - an abject inability to score runs due to a weak and inconsistent offense - would have remained.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:22 PM
Because I think the problems are systemic, of which Greg Walker is just the most glaring example:

I think KW needs to be "promoted" to team president, where his ego will be less able to affect the construction of the roster, and Hahn named GM.

Then, I think Hahn should fire Ozzie, Walker and Cora.

Next, I think Hahn needs to hire a manager who has a proven track record of maximizing the talent of young players, stresses and drills defense and hitting fundamentals, and is a good in-game strategist.

Finally, I think Hahn needs to tell his new manager that Cooper must stay, but that the new manager is free to retain or fire any of the other coaches.

This I agree with...100%!!!

1989
06-26-2011, 10:22 PM
This offense looks unfixable. Pierre offers nothing, Dunn is lost, and Beckham has become a black hole as well. Rios is starting to get back track, but he's unreliable. We struggle with RISP and seemingly never make a productive out with a runner on 3rd witg less than 2 out or a runner on 2nd with no one out.

We have to sit Dunn down for these 6 games in NL parks. Only pinch hit him in a situation where a right hander is throwing. Hopefully he uses this time to clear his head (again), and maybe he becomes semi-productive for a stretch. I'm amazed how he couldn't catch up to an 86 mph 'fastball' today.

kittle42
06-26-2011, 10:24 PM
There is no need to worry. We will defeat every NL team at least 2 of 3. And after that, we will be awesome against AL teams even though we have given no indication we ever will.

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 10:26 PM
haha...sorry, i dont keep up on the reputations of hitting coaches around the league...can you even name 1 or 2 others that are so-called highly respected and have churned out a plethora of talented, multi-faceted hitters?

I would bet cash that if they do fire walker, it would make ZERO difference. It's totally on the hitters...either for not asking for help or not taking any pride in their performances.

Hitting coaches make NO difference to overall team performance...If that is the case, then let Walker go, since he shouldn't be needed. Along with all the other hitting coaches in the league.

MikeW
06-26-2011, 10:26 PM
Has anyone come up with the idea that Dunn may need glasses? I swear by watching every game that the man can't see. It has to be something physical. No one can be this bad.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 10:28 PM
If we had won 1-0, the rage might have been suppressed for another day, but the underlying issues - an abject inability to score runs due to a weak and inconsistent offense - would have remained.
I presume you make these posts with full awareness of the following rankings of the White Sox in MLB:
Runs scored: 14th
OBP: 11th
OPS: 13th
SLG: 13th
Hits: 10th

I could not find team RISP, but heard on the radio today, the Sox are in the top half of that, too.

Yup, all in the top half of MLB.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:31 PM
If that is the case, then let Walker go, since he shouldn't be needed. Along with all the other hitting coaches in the league.

He's there as a tool...if the players need him. Just like our new team psychiatrist...You cant force a hitter to go and work with him...every hitter is different. Especially veterans...

Oh and thats fine with me btw...doesnt seem like our guys are using his services much anyway

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 10:32 PM
I presume you make these posts with full awareness of the following rankings of the White Sox in MLB:
Runs scored: 14th
OBP: 11th
OPS: 13th
SLG: 13th
Hits: 10th

I could not find team RISP, but hear on the radio today, the Sox are in the top half of that, too.

Yup, all in the top half of MLB.Refer to Lip' stats about how many games the Sox have lost when holding the opposition to three runs or less. To me, that is more telling than where they rank in runs scored.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:33 PM
haha...sorry, i dont keep up on the reputations of hitting coaches around the league...can you even name 1 or 2 others that are so-called highly respected and have churned out a plethora of talented, multi-faceted hitters?

Clint Hurdle

Gene Tenace

Mickey Hatcher

Milt Thompson

Kevin Long

1989
06-26-2011, 10:34 PM
I presume you make these posts with full awareness of the following rankings of the White Sox in MLB:
Runs scored: 14th
OBP: 11th
OPS: 13th
SLG: 13th
Hits: 10th

I could not find team RISP, but heard on the radio today, the Sox are in the top half of that, too.

Yup, all in the top half of MLB.

They should be, they're in the American League. I'm more interested in where we stand compared to the rest of our AL counterparts.

Daver
06-26-2011, 10:35 PM
No, all you do is obfuscate the issue by bringing up the beer vendors.

Actually, JR is at the core of the problem, because evidence suggests he values loyalty over performance excellence, and that has permeated the culture of this entire organization.

And you are still calling for firing someone when you have no idea what his job is, or whether or not he knows how to do it.

Based on that I think you should be fired first thing tomorrow morning. I have no idea what you do, or what your job entails, but the general results around your profession are sub par and someone has to go.

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 10:35 PM
He's there as a tool...if the players need him. Just like our new team psychiatrist...You cant force a hitter to go and work with him...every hitter is different. Especially veterans...

Oh and thats fine with me btw...doesnt seem like our guys are using his services much anywayWhether he's there as a tool or not, if he has NO EFFECT on a team's performance, then why would he be needed? The same goes for any individual in any type of business.

Daver
06-26-2011, 10:37 PM
Whether he's there as a tool or not, if he has NO EFFECT on a team's performance, then why would he be needed? The same goes for any individual in any type of business.

Because he actually does help the players that want to be helped?

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:38 PM
I presume you make these posts with full awareness of the following rankings of the White Sox in MLB:
Runs scored: 14th
OBP: 11th
OPS: 13th
SLG: 13th
Hits: 10th

I could not find team RISP, but heard on the radio today, the Sox are in the top half of that, too.

Yup, all in the top half of MLB.

Those are poor results for the amount of hitting talent we have on this team, and the payroll that is being spent on the hitting talent on this team.

Refer to Lip' stats about how many games the Sox have lost when holding the opposition to three runs or less. To me, that is more telling than where they rank in runs scored.

Precisely. We are a "feast or famine" hitting club. When the wind is blowing out and the weather is warm at our bandbox ballpark, routine warning track cans of corn turn into home runs, which inflate our HR and total runs numbers. The problem is that in terms of the number of games, we get famine more than we get feast.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:42 PM
Because he actually does help the players that want to be helped?

Thanks Daver...I guess I left that sentence out...for those that need it totally spelled out for them.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:44 PM
Clint Hurdle

Gene Tenace

Mickey Hatcher

Milt Thompson

Kevin Long


Well done sir, you are a master of teH google!:tongue:

TomBradley72
06-26-2011, 10:46 PM
haha...sorry, i dont keep up on the reputations of hitting coaches around the league...can you even name 1 or 2 others that are so-called highly respected and have churned out a plethora of talented, multi-faceted hitters?

I would bet cash that if they do fire walker, it would make ZERO difference. It's totally on the hitters...either for not asking for help or not taking any pride in their performances.

Hitting coaches make NO difference to overall team performance...

+ Infinity

Throughout all of the "fire Walker" discussions over the years- I've asked who would you like to replace him? Who are the high impact hitting coaches that would make a difference?

Crickets.

Every time.

The next time ANYONE comes up with a name- will be the first.

Why? Because there are none---or at best very, very few.

Take the time to look at the names of the hitting coaches for the other 29 teams- I don't really care whether we keep him or fire him.

It will make about as much difference as keeping/firing Cox, Baines, Cora, etc.- none.

A. Cavatica
06-26-2011, 10:47 PM
Because he actually does help the players that want to be helped?

Sorry, putting it on the players doesn't wash either. There's been a lot of turnover of the roster during Walker's tenure.

I don't think Walker is the main problem -- Williams and Guillen are mostly to blame -- but Walker has certainly not been able to help Rios and Dunn, and with the size of those contracts that's enough of a reason to try someone else.

TomBradley72
06-26-2011, 10:48 PM
Clint Hurdle

Gene Tenace

Mickey Hatcher

Milt Thompson

Kevin Long

How do back up these names- that THEY has that much of an impact on their team's hitters?

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 10:50 PM
Because he actually does help the players that want to be helped?If he is helping players who want to be helped, then he IS having an effect on overall team performance. And if he is not helping players who need but don't necessarily ask for help, then he is also affecting team performance but in the other direction.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 10:53 PM
And you are still calling for firing someone when you have no idea what his job is, or whether or not he knows how to do it.

Based on that I think you should be fired first thing tomorrow morning. I have no idea what you do, or what your job entails, but the general results around your profession are sub par and someone has to go.

When in doubt, resort to hyperbole.

I teach history to college students. As an historian, I study evidence. The statistical and anecdotal evidence available to me, plus the dearth of evidence anywhere of anyone - other than Paul Konerko - saying anything positive about how Walker has helped them improve his performance as a hitter, especially when compared to the statistical and anecdotal evidence that show that hitters on some other teams have improved their performance working with some other hitting coaches, pushes me to conclude - based on the evidence - that Greg Walker is not a very effective hitting coach.

All you have done is question my fitness to evaluate the evidence.

I never sat in on a session with Rudy Jaramillo and one of his hitters, but based on the evidence - statistical and anecdotal - I can conclude that he is an excellent hitting coach. So, according to your line of questioning of my fitness to evaluate the evidence, am I wrong to conclude that Jaramillo is a good hitting coach?

How about showing me some evidence that Walker is effective? I promise to consider it. If you'll look at my posting history, you'll find that I often give significant consideration to evidence you provide.

Until then, I remain convinced, based on the evidence, that Walker is an ineffective hitting coach.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 10:55 PM
If he is helping players who want to be helped, then he IS having an effect on overall team performance. And if he is not helping players who need but don't necessarily ask for help, then he is also affecting team performance but in the other direction.

And this is the job description of an MLB hitting coach!

WhiteSox5187
06-26-2011, 11:00 PM
I presume you make these posts with full awareness of the following rankings of the White Sox in MLB:
Runs scored: 14th
OBP: 11th
OPS: 13th
SLG: 13th
Hits: 10th

I could not find team RISP, but heard on the radio today, the Sox are in the top half of that, too.

Yup, all in the top half of MLB.

In the AL this year we rank 7th in OBP, the smack dab middle of the pack. In OPS we rank 8th which would put us in the bottom half. In SLG we are 8th which again leaves us in the lower half. In hits we are 7th which is the middle of the pack. In runs scored we are 8th. We would be a good NL team but we are pretty damn mediocre if not down right bad in the AL with these numbers.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 11:00 PM
When in doubt, resort to hyperbole.

I teach history to college students. As an historian, I study evidence. The statistical and anecdotal evidence available to me, plus the dearth of evidence anywhere of anyone - other than Paul Konerko - saying anything positive about how Walker has helped them improve his performance as a hitter, especially when compared to the statistical and anecdotal evidence that show that hitters on some other teams have improved their performance working with some other hitting coaches, pushes me to conclude - based on the evidence - that Greg Walker is not a very effective hitting coach.

All you have done is question my fitness to evaluate the evidence.

I never sat in on a session with Rudy Jaramillo and one of his hitters, but based on the evidence - statistical and anecdotal - I can conclude that he is an excellent hitting coach. So, according to your line of questioning of my fitness to evaluate the evidence, am I wrong to conclude that Jaramillo is a good hitting coach?

How about showing me some evidence that Walker is effective? I promise to consider it. If you'll look at my posting history, you'll find that I often give significant consideration to evidence you provide.

Until then, I remain convinced, based on the evidence, that Walker is an ineffective hitting coach.

So then what if he, for examples sake, is a very good hitting coach but our veteran hitters refuse to listen? Does this then make him a bad hitting coach? Due to his hard headed students refusing to use his advice? What if they are simply stubborn??

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 11:05 PM
And this is the job description of an MLB hitting coach!I was just addressing your contention that a hitting coach has NO effect on a team's overall performance.

Blueprint1
06-26-2011, 11:06 PM
So then what if he, for examples sake, is a very good hitting coach but our veteran hitters refuse to listen? Does this then make him a bad hitting coach? Due to his hard headed students refusing to use his advice? What if they are simply stubborn??

I think getting the players to listen to you is also part of the job. If the players simply ignore your advice you are not doing an effective job.

Daver
06-26-2011, 11:06 PM
When in doubt, resort to hyperbole.

I teach history to college students. As an historian, I study evidence. The statistical and anecdotal evidence available to me, plus the dearth of evidence anywhere of anyone - other than Paul Konerko - saying anything positive about how Walker has helped them improve his performance as a hitter, especially when compared to the statistical and anecdotal evidence that show that hitters on some other teams have improved their performance working with some other hitting coaches, pushes me to conclude - based on the evidence - that Greg Walker is not a very effective hitting coach.

All you have done is question my fitness to evaluate the evidence.

I never sat in on a session with Rudy Jaramillo and one of his hitters, but based on the evidence - statistical and anecdotal - I can conclude that he is an excellent hitting coach. So, according to your line of questioning of my fitness to evaluate the evidence, am I wrong to conclude that Jaramillo is a good hitting coach?

How about showing me some evidence that Walker is effective? I promise to consider it. If you'll look at my posting history, you'll find that I often give significant consideration to evidence you provide.

Until then, I remain convinced, based on the evidence, that Walker is an ineffective hitting coach.


What part of you insisting on the firing of someone that, by your admission in this thread, you don't know his job description, or what he is doing wrong is not hyperbole at it's finest?

You study history?

Do some research, find out exactly how he prepares for each game, and the options he gives to his hitters on preparation, it is not that hard to do, it took me two phone calls and four e-mails, I did it last season.


What percentage of college students actually get a piece of sheepskin that declares them smart? At what percentage should we start firing professors because of the failure of the student?

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 11:07 PM
I think getting the players to listen to you is also part of the job. If the players simply ignore your advice you are not doing an effective job.

Bingo.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 11:08 PM
And this is the job description of an MLB hitting coach!
It is? There's a Uniform Hitting Coach Job Description all MLB teams that employ a Hitting Coach use? Linky?

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 11:09 PM
I think getting the players to listen to you is also part of the job. If the players simply ignore your advice you are not doing an effective job.
...and you know there are players who are ignoring his advice how?

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 11:10 PM
I was just addressing your contention that a hitting coach has NO effect on a team's overall performance.

His job is to help individual hitters with their swings...not teach them basic situational hitting that they should have learned in little league.

Dick Allen
06-26-2011, 11:12 PM
His job is to help individual hitters with their swings...not teach them basic situational hitting that they should have learned in little league.In either case, he is having an effect on the team's overall performance. That's my only point.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 11:13 PM
What part of you insisting on the firing of someone that, by your admission in this thread, you don't know his job description, or what he is doing wrong is not hyperbole at it's finest?

You study history?

Do some research, find out exactly how he prepares for each game, and the options he gives to his hitters on preparation, it is not that hard to do, it took me two phone calls and four e-mails, I did it last season.


What percentage of college students actually get a piece of sheepskin that declares them smart? At what percentage should we start firing professors because of the failure of the student?

Colleges have an abysmal rate of graduating students who can read, write and think well. I'm trying to fix that.

Again, you are attacking my fitness to evaluate evidence. I asked you for evidence that could refute my conclusion. You seem to suggest you have such evidence, but so far have not shared it.

Sometimes people work really hard but have limited success. Greg Walker gets an A for effort and a C-minus for results.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 11:13 PM
I think getting the players to listen to you is also part of the job. If the players simply ignore your advice you are not doing an effective job.

So what? He should go up to all of the struggling, fully grown adult, professional MLB hitters, grab them byt the ear and drag them into his office and make them listen?

Please...*****

tstrike2000
06-26-2011, 11:13 PM
Speaking of hitting, I do like the slight change that Alex Rios has made. Maybe he's been doing it for a while, but I'm noticing he's resting the bat more on his shoulder which seems like it's helping him transition the bat into hitting position quicker. He's not dropping his hands quite as low as he did before. It's quietly translated into him raising his batting average about 20 points in the last few weeks. Today, even though he was without a hit, getting that bat into hitting position faster looks like he's been able to turn on pitches better and keep his swing short.

JermaineDye05
06-26-2011, 11:15 PM
All this angst because Humber gave up a home run. I suppose that, too, was Walker's fault.

No.

We hit below .200 with RISP during the homestand.

Pitching's been fantastic.

Offense has been **** save for Konerko and Quentin.

Frater Perdurabo
06-26-2011, 11:17 PM
So what? He should go up to all of the struggling, fully grown adult, professional MLB hitters, grab them byt the ear and drag them into his office and make them listen?

Please...*****

There are other techniques besides physical violence.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 11:19 PM
There are other techniques besides physical violence.

Yup...talking. And I already stated if they feel like they dont want to listen what are you gonna do? He has no power...now Ozzie on the other hand

Daver
06-26-2011, 11:24 PM
Again, you are attacking my fitness to evaluate evidence. I asked you for evidence that could refute my conclusion. You seem to suggest you have such evidence, but so far have not shared it.


No, I am telling you to get this evidence yourself, untainted from my perspective, forgive the ignorance of the unlearned, but wouldn't direct evidence be better than second hand?

balke
06-26-2011, 11:33 PM
Sorry, putting it on the players doesn't wash either. There's been a lot of turnover of the roster during Walker's tenure.

I don't think Walker is the main problem -- Williams and Guillen are mostly to blame -- but Walker has certainly not been able to help Rios and Dunn, and with the size of those contracts that's enough of a reason to try someone else.

So you don't think Walker is the problem - but fire him anyway?

Rios was on a 7-game hitting streak - 4 of those for multiple hits.

Dunn has publicly said he's a feel hitter and doesn't think much of mechanics. He wants to get his timing down. He also said he's historically slow at finding his timing compared to other players - and that his surgery came at a time when he just got his timing down.

I'm pretty sick of people blaming Walker for Dunn.

If you want to bash Walker - look at Beckham and how he can't seem to take anything Walker tells him to heart. He's been worked with and told many times about his hands being a problem - and they still are a problem.

He's changed his swing for the worse since he came to the Sox. And although Walker knows what Beckham is doing wrong - Beckham is still doing wrong.

Not a fireable offense IMO. But it is a better example of ineffectiveness than a 10 year veteran slugger who always has had trouble making contact - has entered a new league, had surgery, and is now a fulltime DH.

Blueprint1
06-26-2011, 11:35 PM
...and you know there are players who are ignoring his advice how?


I don't know that. I think it was someone else that suggested that. I was just pointing out that getting players to listen would also be part of the job.

DumpJerry
06-26-2011, 11:39 PM
I don't know that. I think it was someone else that suggested that. I was just pointing out that getting players to listen would also be part of the job.
:scratch:So, you admit you don't know if the players are ignoring him and in your next breath you pretty much repeat your baseless assumption.

JB98
06-26-2011, 11:42 PM
Forgive me for being uninspired by this 3-3 homestand.

My goodness, this offense stinks. I don't even care where the blame lies anymore. I just want it fixed.

Seems like this regime spends more time lashing out at critics than trying to fix the problems with the team. Even Omar Vizquel is making no effort to hit behind runners now. The team looks indifferent, and that's not a good sign.

Nine strikeouts in 6.2 innings against Livan Hernandez? That's brutal. Hernandez is certainly not overpowering at this stage of his career.

HaroMaster87
06-26-2011, 11:44 PM
So you don't think Walker is the problem - but fire him anyway?

Rios was on a 7-game hitting streak - 4 of those for multiple hits.

Dunn has publicly said he's a feel hitter and doesn't think much of mechanics. He wants to get his timing down. He also said he's historically slow at finding his timing compared to other players - and that his surgery came at a time when he just got his timing down.

I'm pretty sick of people blaming Walker for Dunn.

If you want to bash Walker - look at Beckham and how he can't seem to take anything Walker tells him to heart. He's been worked with and told many times about his hands being a problem - and they still are a problem.

He's changed his swing for the worse since he came to the Sox. And although Walker knows what Beckham is doing wrong - Beckham is still doing wrong.

Not a fireable offense IMO. But it is a better example of ineffectiveness than a 10 year veteran slugger who always has had trouble making contact - has entered a new league, had surgery, and is now a fulltime DH.

Yes. Walker has stated numerous time on Hit and Run on the radio that they all know what Beckham is doing...and then it gets foggy. But it always sounds like its a really tough thing to fix in season.

WhiteSox5187
06-26-2011, 11:48 PM
Yes. Walker has stated numerous time on Hit and Run on the radio that they all know what Beckham is doing...and then it gets foggy. But it always sounds like its a really tough thing to fix in season.

Well, I will say this about Beckham (and his relationship with Walker) he IS trying a lot of new stuff. I noticed he is not wiggling his bat as much anymore which I always thought was a bit of a problem because it leads to a lot of moving parts. He has also dropped his hands a bit, so it would appear that someone (presumably Walker) is bringing this stuff to Beckham's attention and he is at least trying it on.

Blueprint1
06-27-2011, 12:00 AM
:scratch:So, you admit you don't know if the players are ignoring him and in your next breath you pretty much repeat your baseless assumption.

Someone said it's not Walkers fault if the hitters don't listen to him. I was pointing out that if that were true it would be his fault. Giving advice and getting the hitter to listen to that advice is Greg Walkers job. I being an outsider have no clue what Walker is actually doing.

SoxSpeed22
06-27-2011, 12:22 AM
Listening to Walker on Hit and Run, he seems like he knows a lot about good swing mechanics. The problem I think is he is either not reaching the hitters or neither side knows much about making good adjustments.
Regardless there are problems with this team that go well beyond him. Firing him alone probably won't solve anything (even though I wouldn't mind it). I see it like benching Grossman for Griese, there are plenty of other problems, but the hitting coach gets the most scrutiny.

hi im skot
06-27-2011, 01:02 AM
This thread is almost as exhausting as Sunday's game.

Noneck
06-27-2011, 01:14 AM
First, I dont think firing Walker would change anything. My question is since Walker wasnt selected by Guillen, does Guillen have the right to let him go? This holds true with Copper also. Does anyone know who actually did hire Walker, was it Williams or Reinsdorf? Dont most managers hire their own coaching staffs? Isnt it very unusual that both the hitting and pitching coach were not selected by the manager?

guillensdisciple
06-27-2011, 01:35 AM
Heh

voodoochile
06-27-2011, 02:03 AM
This thread is almost as exhausting as Sunday's game.

You read it? :rolling:

WHY would you do that to yourself? :?:

I had to leave today after the 7th and didn't know the outcome until I got home. I didn't figure we were going to win given the previous 7 innings but the minute I got home and checked the score I came to this forum, checked the PTC winner then marked the whole thing read and moved to the PL.

What could have possibly be said in this thread that hasn't been said in 100 other threads in the last month. The Sox lost... the boo birds are out in force and there will be much raging. Nothing to be learned from reading the same tired crap from the same posters one more time.

Next time save your brain cells, don't bother. Someone's got a signature about quitting game day threads is good for your health. I agree 100% and more so for post game threads when the Sox lose and when they lose one like they did today, look out below.

I'll sleep just fine not having subjected myself to this amount of anger...

Blueprint1
06-27-2011, 02:09 AM
:scratch:So, you admit you don't know if the players are ignoring him and in your next breath you pretty much repeat your baseless assumption.

No, I am just defining his job. I didn't make any assumption at all. Maybe you should reread my original post.

HaroMaster87
06-27-2011, 02:22 AM
This thread is almost as exhausting as Sunday's game.

You are so right!!!

Today is my rest day and I was just unusually bored...otherwise I wouldn't have bothered

PeteWard
06-27-2011, 02:39 AM
Yea...they better be careful some well-run organization doesn't come steal him away...

Yankees have been sniffing after him since 2005.

HaroMaster87
06-27-2011, 02:41 AM
Yankees have been sniffing after him since 2005.

I hope the WS egos dont get the best of them...once again

Was that when Stottlemeyer (sp?) retired?

JB98
06-27-2011, 02:44 AM
You read it? :rolling:

WHY would you do that to yourself? :?:

I had to leave today after the 7th and didn't know the outcome until I got home. I didn't figure we were going to win given the previous 7 innings but the minute I got home and checked the score I came to this forum, checked the PTC winner then marked the whole thing read and moved to the PL.

What could have possibly be said in this thread that hasn't been said in 100 other threads in the last month. The Sox lost... the boo birds are out in force and there will be much raging. Nothing to be learned from reading the same tired crap from the same posters one more time.

Next time save your brain cells, don't bother. Someone's got a signature about quitting game day threads is good for your health. I agree 100% and more so for post game threads when the Sox lose and when they lose one like they did today, look out below.

I'll sleep just fine not having subjected myself to this amount of anger...

I've read the thread, and every ounce of frustration is completely justified. They lose like this three times per week.

The White Sox have not come close to living up to expectations. The season is almost half over, and the biggest reason for optimism is, "Well, the rest of the division sucks, too."

captain54
06-27-2011, 02:55 AM
What could have possibly be said in this thread that hasn't been said in 100 other threads in the last month. The Sox lost... the boo birds are out in force and there will be much raging. Nothing to be learned from reading the same tired crap from the same posters one more time.

Next time save your brain cells, don't bother. Someone's got a signature about quitting game day threads is good for your health. I agree 100% and more so for post game threads when the Sox lose and when they lose one like they did today, look out below.

I'll sleep just fine not having subjected myself to this amount of anger...


Do you seriously think fans have no right to be negative and pissed off when they continually watch in frustration as their team gives away winnable games? You obviously aren't familiar with the fan base in Philly or NYC.

SoxSpeed22
06-27-2011, 03:13 AM
Do you seriously think fans have no right to be negative and pissed off when they continually watch in frustration as their team gives away winnable games? You obviously aren't familiar with the fan base in Philly or NYC.Of course we have a right to, after pissing away another game. We can also make the choice not to read the whole gamethread and postgame thread. I think I'm done here today.

Sox
06-27-2011, 08:52 AM
You read it? :rolling:

WHY would you do that to yourself? :?:

I had to leave today after the 7th and didn't know the outcome until I got home. I didn't figure we were going to win given the previous 7 innings but the minute I got home and checked the score I came to this forum, checked the PTC winner then marked the whole thing read and moved to the PL.

What could have possibly be said in this thread that hasn't been said in 100 other threads in the last month. The Sox lost... the boo birds are out in force and there will be much raging. Nothing to be learned from reading the same tired crap from the same posters one more time.

Next time save your brain cells, don't bother. Someone's got a signature about quitting game day threads is good for your health. I agree 100% and more so for post game threads when the Sox lose and when they lose one like they did today, look out below.

I'll sleep just fine not having subjected myself to this amount of anger...

I think that in a nutshell you have summed up my frustration as well. I turned off the tube after the Espinosa HR myself. I knew exactly what the outcome was going to be without putting myself through anymore. I feel your pain.

harwar
06-27-2011, 08:58 AM
The White Sox have not come close to living up to expectations. "


isn't that a matter of opinion .. i never expected this team to do all that well .. the only surprise to me is that Jake Peavy looked awesome his last time out ..

hawkjt
06-27-2011, 11:01 AM
After losses,especially frustrating ones like this(but really,aren't they all frustrating..sox should never lose)...I stay away from the board til the next day. I know I would be reacting badly,and probably go over the top.

Now, almost 24 hours later, the sun has come out,and it is still summer in Chicago,and the Sox are still 4.5 out...and life goes on.
I am an optimist by nature,and still believe the worm will turn on this teams offense.

It was galling to see Humber lose on that bad pitch selection...twice,to the same hitter. I gasped when he threw the first high changeup to that guy,who Hawk and Stoney agreed was the best high pitch lefty they had seen all year, and then was relieved when the bomb went foul,but then to go back to that pitch? Sad.

It was not a Sox park type of day for our club with that damn wind knocking down PK's and Alex's homers....we needed to hit them to right field,but alas, our lefty power is grounded.

Pick ourselves up,go to Colorado, win a series,then come back and beat the Cubs,and then get ready for the real season to engage again with KC and Twins coming into Soxpark for 7 next week. Sox play the AL Central a bunch in July,so they they better get hot quickly.

The good news, is if the Sox offense does come back to career norms the second half, the Sox will be playing Detroit 12 and Cleveland 12 times...4.5 games can disapear in a two week hot streak. Relax,breath,and try to enjoy summertime baseball,fans!.

voodoochile
06-27-2011, 11:19 AM
I've read the thread, and every ounce of frustration is completely justified. They lose like this three times per week.

The White Sox have not come close to living up to expectations. The season is almost half over, and the biggest reason for optimism is, "Well, the rest of the division sucks, too."

I didn't say that it wasn't justified I said there was no reason to read people venting their frustration.

I do think it gets over the top. People put too much of their ego in this stuff. I enjoy baseball. I'm a diehard fan. I physically shake sometimes from excitement and nervous energy when an important game is close at the end and the game is on the line. I scream at my TV set and stand up to sing "Take Me Out To The Ballgame" ever single seventh inning stretch while at home.

But, I don't do rage. I never did understand what that accomplishes.

Sox
06-27-2011, 01:02 PM
After losses,especially frustrating ones like this(but really,aren't they all frustrating..sox should never lose)...I stay away from the board til the next day. I know I would be reacting badly,and probably go over the top.

Now, almost 24 hours later, the sun has come out,and it is still summer in Chicago,and the Sox are still 4.5 out...and life goes on.
I am an optimist by nature,and still believe the worm will turn on this teams offense.

It was galling to see Humber lose on that bad pitch selection...twice,to the same hitter. I gasped when he threw the first high changeup to that guy,who Hawk and Stoney agreed was the best high pitch lefty they had seen all year, and then was relieved when the bomb went foul,but then to go back to that pitch? Sad.

It was not a Sox park type of day for our club with that damn wind knocking down PK's and Alex's homers....we needed to hit them to right field,but alas, our lefty power is grounded.

Pick ourselves up,go to Colorado, win a series,then come back and beat the Cubs,and then get ready for the real season to engage again with KC and Twins coming into Soxpark for 7 next week. Sox play the AL Central a bunch in July,so they they better get hot quickly.

The good news, is if the Sox offense does come back to career norms the second half, the Sox will be playing Detroit 12 and Cleveland 12 times...4.5 games can disapear in a two week hot streak. Relax,breath,and try to enjoy summertime baseball,fans!.

Obviously we need more optimists on this board like you. Good Post!! :thumbsup:And :gosox:

JermaineDye05
06-27-2011, 01:06 PM
After losses,especially frustrating ones like this(but really,aren't they all frustrating..sox should never lose)...I stay away from the board til the next day. I know I would be reacting badly,and probably go over the top.

Now, almost 24 hours later, the sun has come out,and it is still summer in Chicago,and the Sox are still 4.5 out...and life goes on.
I am an optimist by nature,and still believe the worm will turn on this teams offense.

It was galling to see Humber lose on that bad pitch selection...twice,to the same hitter. I gasped when he threw the first high changeup to that guy,who Hawk and Stoney agreed was the best high pitch lefty they had seen all year, and then was relieved when the bomb went foul,but then to go back to that pitch? Sad.

It was not a Sox park type of day for our club with that damn wind knocking down PK's and Alex's homers....we needed to hit them to right field,but alas, our lefty power is grounded.

Pick ourselves up,go to Colorado, win a series,then come back and beat the Cubs,and then get ready for the real season to engage again with KC and Twins coming into Soxpark for 7 next week. Sox play the AL Central a bunch in July,so they they better get hot quickly.

The good news, is if the Sox offense does come back to career norms the second half, the Sox will be playing Detroit 12 and Cleveland 12 times...4.5 games can disapear in a two week hot streak. Relax,breath,and try to enjoy summertime baseball,fans!.

I wish I could be an optimist like this, but from watching the Sox for the past three months this season, there's nothing that I've seen from this team to indicate that they'll be anything more than a 78-80 win team.

The team may have needed to hit those balls to right yesterday, but I'm going to hazard a guess that everyone was pull happy as usual.

This team is just too ****ing frustrating for me to be optimistic.

captain54
06-27-2011, 01:06 PM
But, I don't do rage. I never did understand what that accomplishes.

I agree with you, for the most part, although I don't see what harm allowing people to vent on an internet chat board does. It certainly is a lot tamer and going out and tearing up the town Vancouver-style.

To open up an internet sports forum and chat board and then be miffed when fans get upset and lash out..well, I think that's a little unrealistic

To me, equally as annoying as the railing and venting is the condescending attitude of a few who think that those that rail and vent
aren't astute enough to have a right to an opinion. As far as I know, no one that has every posted on this board has ever had one major league AB, or thrown a pitch, so that pretty much levels the playing field, in my eyes.

JB98
06-27-2011, 01:13 PM
isn't that a matter of opinion .. i never expected this team to do all that well .. the only surprise to me is that Jake Peavy looked awesome his last time out ..

Well, they won 88 games last year. I know a lot of people thought they would better that, reading through the WSI preseason prediction thread.

Instead, it's a losing team, and frankly, they aren't particularly exciting to watch either. Given that we pay the fifth-highest ticket prices in all of baseball, I'm very disappointed in this team and this regime.

voodoochile
06-27-2011, 01:30 PM
I agree with you, for the most part, although I don't see what harm allowing people to vent on an internet chat board does. It certainly is a lot tamer and going out and tearing up the town Vancouver-style.

To open up an internet sports forum and chat board and then be miffed when fans get upset and lash out..well, I think that's a little unrealistic

To me, equally as annoying as the railing and venting is the condescending attitude of a few who think that those that rail and vent
aren't astute enough to have a right to an opinion. As far as I know, no one that has every posted on this board has ever had one major league AB, or thrown a pitch, so that pretty much levels the playing field, in my eyes.

Um... sorry, why are you putting words in my mouth? I didn't say people couldn't do it. I didn't say I was expressing anything but my own opinion. I never once said anything about it that would lead you to infer what you said other than the fact I'm an admin. Frankly the old "admins/mods" are intolerant routine is WAY past old.

We specifically created the game and post game threads to house all the hair tearing and hand wringing that goes on so they wouldn't poison the rest of the board with the over the top vitriol. That way I and many others can avoid it when they desire or wade through the cesspool if they so choose.

Vent on, Captain, vent on, just don't expect me to read it, or appreciate it.

Oh and my main argument is none of us have been inside the clubhouse and know what the inner team dynamics are like. All of us get imperfect information. It's not about our knowledge of the game over all, but about our lack knowledge of the interpersonal relationships of the players and coaches and thus we have no clue as to what Walker says or does with the players behind closed doors (for example). Nor do we have knowledge of whether our team's model is dramatically better/worse than other teams. We base our analysis on the end results which rarely tell the whole story.

captain54
06-27-2011, 02:28 PM
Nor do we have knowledge of whether our team's model is dramatically better/worse than other teams. We base our analysis on the end results which rarely tell the whole story.

True, but when the end result is getting our butts kicked continually by smaller market team with a smaller payroll (Twins) and we end up chasing a team up near mid-season (Indians) with a payroll less than 1/2 of ours....

Doesn't take any profound inside knowledge of the inner workings of the Sox to know there is something not quite right with the team's model

BigKlu59
06-27-2011, 03:51 PM
True, but when the end result is getting our butts kicked continually by smaller market team with a smaller payroll (Twins) and we end up chasing a team up near mid-season (Indians) with a payroll less than 1/2 of ours....

Doesn't take any profound inside knowledge of the inner workings of the Sox to know there is something not quite right with the team's model


+1.... For years we had the sticks and bitched about pitching... Perfect Storm in 2005 culminating with timely hitting, baseball "smarts" and historical pitching prowess.. Now it's The starting pitching thats solid and we figured you could pull a page out of Steinbrenner's book and purchase "quality" role players to fill the voids based on PAST performance..READ: "Roll of the Dice"...

This is a solid team 'On Paper".... The solid numbers just havent come to fruition other than a few of the players.. Bottom line is the Sox always seem to get caught in that "one off" cycle..



BK59

voodoochile
06-27-2011, 03:55 PM
+1.... For years we had the sticks and bitched about pitching... Perfect Storm in 2005 culminating with timely hitting, baseball "smarts" and historical pitching prowess.. Now it's The starting pitching thats solid and we figured you could pull a page out of Steinbrenner's book and purchase "quality" role players to fill the voids based on PAST performance..READ: "Roll of the Dice"...

This is a solid team 'On Paper".... The solid numbers just havent come to fruition other than a few of the players.. Bottom line is the Sox always seem to get caught in that "one off" cycle..



BK59

And the fact of the matter remains that if Dunn were even hitting 90% of his prorated career averages at this point in the season the Sox would probably be leading the division or at the least tied...

Sox
06-27-2011, 04:17 PM
And the fact of the matter remains that if Dunn were even hitting 90% of his prorated career averages at this point in the season the Sox would probably be leading the division or at the least tied...


I only wish that were true.....:(:

BigKlu59
06-27-2011, 04:23 PM
And the fact of the matter remains that if Dunn were even hitting 90% of his prorated career averages at this point in the season the Sox would probably be leading the division or at the least tied...


That was the crystal ball thought process.... Hell, I'd even take 75% out of him and a few of the others having that miraculous season of 30 points above their averages for a 20-40 game stretch..

Time to go rent that copy of "Angels in the Outfield" for our post All Star Break run... While we're at it, somebody get Roy Hobbs on the phone. Be nice to see him put a few Westinghouse's out on the light stanchions..


BK59

Lip Man 1
06-27-2011, 07:44 PM
I remember my late father telling me "if" is the biggest little word in the world. He also used to say "if the dog hadn't stopped to take a ****, he'd of caught the rabbit..."

The reality is Dunn isn't hitting, neither is Rios...the defense has lost games, the fundamentals are at best inconsistent.

The Sox have earned their record and their place in the division. We can play 'what if' or 'if' games all we want but that doesn't change the cold hard facts in the here and now or yesterday as far back in time as you want.

What if? The Sox had been able to trade for Frank Robinson, Hawk or Yaz? What if they signed Fernando?? etc...

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=2&id=3435

Lip