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Daver
06-25-2011, 07:07 PM
Helluva a job.


Bullpen




The benefit of having a six man rotation.

sunofgold
06-25-2011, 07:11 PM
Nice bounce back from a tough loss. Bullpen was solid..Bruney, Peavy, and Santos. Good bullpen management. Nice two insurance runs in the ninth with clutch hit by Castro. Hope Danks' injury isn't serious.

So far, we have lost the opener in every interleague series this year. But, have won the final two games of the series. Hope this trend continues tomorrow.

TDog
06-25-2011, 07:18 PM
... The benefit of having a six man rotation.

On one hand, the six-man rotation shortens the bench. There are fewer moves that can be made among position players. On the other hand, the Sox were able to withstand a minor Peavy injury and it helped the Sox find some bullpen innings a day after the bullpen went seven innings.

I wonder if the starters will be stronger than they otherwise would be late in the season having had fewer starts.

voodoochile
06-25-2011, 07:36 PM
On one hand, the six-man rotation shortens the bench. There are fewer moves that can be made among position players. On the other hand, the Sox were able to withstand a minor Peavy injury and it helped the Sox find some bullpen innings a day after the bullpen went seven innings.

I wonder if the starters will be stronger than they otherwise would be late in the season having had fewer starts.

Actually no because they'd be carrying 12 pitchers anyway they'd just have a long relief guy to toss out there. The Sox have no long reliever in the pen.

TDog
06-25-2011, 07:57 PM
Actually no because they'd be carrying 12 pitchers anyway they'd just have a long relief guy to toss out there. The Sox have no long reliever in the pen.

If the White Sox had a five-man rotation, I wouldn't see a need for a 12th pitcher. Even with a long reliever in the bullpen, seven relievers would be excessive. It is possible they would still be carrying 12 pitchers with a five-man rotation, but with a six-man rotation, you really have no choice. I think in Boston, between a couple of personnel moves, the White Sox were carrying 13 pitchers for a few days. I believe Teahen took the place of a pitcher when he was activated.

In any case, there isn't much flexibility if you have only 13 position players and with the DH are starting nine of them. That gives you only four players on the bench, and one is your backup catcher.

voodoochile
06-25-2011, 08:37 PM
If the White Sox had a five-man rotation, I wouldn't see a need for a 12th pitcher. Even with a long reliever in the bullpen, seven relievers would be excessive. It is possible they would still be carrying 12 pitchers with a five-man rotation, but with a six-man rotation, you really have no choice. I think in Boston, between a couple of personnel moves, the White Sox were carrying 13 pitchers for a few days. I believe Teahen took the place of a pitcher when he was activated.

In any case, there isn't much flexibility if you have only 13 position players and with the DH are starting nine of them. That gives you only four players on the bench, and one is your backup catcher.

Yeah but the Sox have carried 7 relievers regularly the last few years.

doublem23
06-25-2011, 09:36 PM
Yeah but the Sox have carried 7 relievers regularly the last few years.

Most teams do

voodoochile
06-26-2011, 12:38 PM
Courtesy of Tebman - your Saturday TBGR

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4144

Sox
06-26-2011, 12:49 PM
Courtesy of Tebman - your Saturday TBGR

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/rwas/index.php?category=4&id=4144

Good article as always!!:cool:

kufram
06-26-2011, 12:55 PM
If the White Sox had a five-man rotation, I wouldn't see a need for a 12th pitcher. Even with a long reliever in the bullpen, seven relievers would be excessive. It is possible they would still be carrying 12 pitchers with a five-man rotation, but with a six-man rotation, you really have no choice. I think in Boston, between a couple of personnel moves, the White Sox were carrying 13 pitchers for a few days. I believe Teahen took the place of a pitcher when he was activated.

In any case, there isn't much flexibility if you have only 13 position players and with the DH are starting nine of them. That gives you only four players on the bench, and one is your backup catcher.


I was out of touch with baseball for a number of years because the internet was so slow being invented. I only knew about Frank Thomas through the International Herald Tribune, I was traveling so much. I checked his stats whever and wherever I could. Teams used to have a 4-man rotation and there was no such thing as a "quality" start. I also cannot remember how many pitchers and bench players teams had, but relievers were kind of failed starters.

Can someone please brief me, and I mean brief, on what happened and when that teams went to 5-man rotations and the bench suddenly shrank. I remember one year (mid-80s?) when I suddenly couldn't find the scorelines to the second games of double headers. Did all of this happen at once?

Daver
06-26-2011, 01:02 PM
I was out of touch with baseball for a number of years because the internet was so slow being invented. I only knew about Frank Thomas through the International Herald Tribune, I was traveling so much. I checked his stats whever and wherever I could. Teams used to have a 4-man rotation and there was no such thing as a "quality" start. I also cannot remember how many pitchers and bench players teams had, but relievers were kind of failed starters.

Can someone please brief me, and I mean brief, on what happened and when that teams went to 5-man rotations and the bench suddenly shrank. I remember one year (mid-80s?) when I suddenly couldn't find the scorelines to the second games of double headers. Did all of this happen at once?

The Orioles in the seventies had five very good starting pitchers, and decided to use a five man rotation as opposed to the conventional four, and because MLB is very much a copy cat league, every other team adopted it and within a few years it was considered to norm as opposed to exception.

Free agency also had a lot to do with how pitchers are used, because agents figured out early on that starting pitching was a limited commodity and used that to drive the price up. They also as a group were responsible for the creation of the quality start, the hold, and the save, so they would be armed with statistical data to use in contract negotiations.

FielderJones
06-26-2011, 01:11 PM
Free agency also had a lot to do with how pitchers are used, because agents figured out early on that starting pitching was a limited commodity and used that to drive the price up. They also as a group were responsible for the creation of the quality start, the hold, and the save, so they would be armed with statistical data to use in contract negotiations.

I'm pretty sure Jerome Holtzman came up with the save.

TDog
06-26-2011, 01:52 PM
I'm pretty sure Jerome Holtzman came up with the save.

He did, and with the best of intentions, to give credit where credit is due. At first, all you had to do was finish a game protecting the lead, any lead. Rolaids put some advertising money into supporting relief pitchers (how do you spell relief?, quite the clever campaign), the success of pitchers like Rich Gossage convinced even teams to sign on to the closer mentality even if they would have been better off letting their pitchers throw complete games or spread the closing duties around. The save rule evolved and that arbitrary parameters of the statistic began dictating when certain pitchers would come into games. Under the free agent/arbitration system, players were paid increasingly more often on the basis of their stats, solidifying the importance of the save.

Some people believe the save rule has hurt baseball.

kufram
06-26-2011, 02:07 PM
The Orioles in the seventies had five very good starting pitchers, and decided to use a five man rotation as opposed to the conventional four, and because MLB is very much a copy cat league, every other team adopted it and within a few years it was considered to norm as opposed to exception.

Free agency also had a lot to do with how pitchers are used, because agents figured out early on that starting pitching was a limited commodity and used that to drive the price up. They also as a group were responsible for the creation of the quality start, the hold, and the save, so they would be armed with statistical data to use in contract negotiations.


Thank you, Daver. So, were benches always so short of subs? Back-up catcher, infielder, 4th outfielder, utility player. I think my little league team had more backups. Were pitching staffs always 11 or 12?

I guess owners got rid of the double header.... don't want to give people two games for the price of one now do we? I am glad they are gone anyway. The only evolution I'm in doubt of is the quality start and pitch counts. Never been totally convinced of the DH.. particular sore point at the moment.

Daver
06-26-2011, 04:21 PM
Thank you, Daver. So, were benches always so short of subs? Back-up catcher, infielder, 4th outfielder, utility player. I think my little league team had more backups. Were pitching staffs always 11 or 12?

I guess owners got rid of the double header.... don't want to give people two games for the price of one now do we? I am glad they are gone anyway. The only evolution I'm in doubt of is the quality start and pitch counts. Never been totally convinced of the DH.. particular sore point at the moment.

Even in the days of four man rotations teams had to carry a spot guy that handled long relief and spot started for stretches with no off days. The quality start, much like the save and the hold exist for no reason other than to arm agents with bargaining points, in and of themselves they are useless stats.

Don't even get me started on pitch counts.