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View Full Version : *Official* 6-21 What Rain Delay? Postgame Thread


thomas35forever
06-22-2011, 12:26 AM
Let's take the series tomorrow.

delben91
06-22-2011, 12:26 AM
Winning is better than losing. :thumbsup:

soxfandy
06-22-2011, 12:27 AM
Santos was filthy tonight. Great job by Crain also.

JB98
06-22-2011, 12:27 AM
Good work by the pitching staff tonight. They had to be good, too, because players not named Konerko aren't generating much offensively.

Put Ramirez in the No. 5 spot tomorrow.

sullythered
06-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Paul Konerko is just a beast. I am so happy he'll finish his career as a Sox.

Soxfest
06-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Good win.............Santos was filthy!

Zakath
06-22-2011, 12:28 AM
Some nasty stuff by Santos to end it. Hung some to Soriano that he got away with.

2-12 RISP. Again. You keep finding ways not to score runs, and you're going to lose a ton of games you should win.

Moses_Scurry
06-22-2011, 12:29 AM
I like wins, and I hope to see more of them.

konerko 14
06-22-2011, 12:29 AM
Indians lose, Tigers losing by 5!

johnnyg83
06-22-2011, 12:30 AM
Good thing Paulie has wide shoulders ...

On MLB.Tv last night after they cut to his HR they said, "Paul Konerko is the MVP of the White Sox, if not the league."

Mohoney
06-22-2011, 12:30 AM
Nice job, Buehrle and bullpen. We really needed this one.

Zakath
06-22-2011, 12:31 AM
Put Ramirez in the No. 5 spot tomorrow.

Southpaw tomorrow, so bench Pierre and Dunn.

And get Beckham out of the doghouse, or wherever he's been hiding...

JB98
06-22-2011, 12:31 AM
Some nasty stuff by Santos to end it. Hung some to Soriano that he got away with.

2-12 RISP. Again. You keep finding ways not to score runs, and you're going to lose a ton of games you should win.

He did, but he was ahead in the count. That's key. You can get away with stuff when it is 0-2. Those same pitches on 1-1 or 2-1 might have been put in play hard.

Or not. Because Soriano sucks and he kinda looks like a frog.

thomas35forever
06-22-2011, 12:32 AM
The winning, losing and saving pitchers for tonight's game are the same as they were for my Show game earlier today. Nice.

Tragg
06-22-2011, 12:32 AM
Nice win.
Thank goodness for good pitching, cause we have some deadweight hitters....

BoysMom3
06-22-2011, 12:33 AM
Nice! Paulie!

ShooterMcGavin
06-22-2011, 12:35 AM
Tonight's finish was worth the wait.

Konerko is just sick, he's in his own place right now.

Morel has been impressing me.

Santos with another 4-out save. Crain with another quality appearance.

I can't believe Guillen didn't PH for Dunn in the 8th.

thomas35forever
06-22-2011, 12:36 AM
I can't believe Guillen didn't PH for Dunn in the 8th.
Believe it because that's what he does.

chisoxfanatic
06-22-2011, 12:37 AM
Paul Konerko is just a beast. I am so happy he'll finish his career as a Sox.
MVP!

If Dunn is in the lineup tomorrow, my head is going to explode. I've had it with that. Now get us the series win tomorrow, Jake!

AnkleSox
06-22-2011, 12:38 AM
Too close for comfort as always, but thank God they won that one.

Dunn needs to bat 9th or be out of the lineup completely. I'm surprised anyone has given Paulie anything to hit any time Dunn is right behind him.

Morel had a nice at bat there and showed a lot of poise in a high pressure situation for a young player. I don't think he'll be a star but if he can keep doing that he could have a nice solid season.

Zakath
06-22-2011, 12:42 AM
Paul Konerko is just a beast. I am so happy he'll finish his career as a Sox.

.331/21/59. Unfortunately, it's probably not getting as much attention because of the numbers that Adrian Gonzalez is putting up in Boston (.350/15/68).

Crooked Number
06-22-2011, 12:45 AM
We could be 4.5 out by the end of the night if the scores hold up. You know, as ****ty as this team is playing right now, there are things to objectively consider.

The starting pitching has been there pretty much all year. Gavin was awful yesterday, but our quality start numbers are incredibly good. The bullpen has been terrific. We have an mvp putting the team on his back right now, and is literally willing this team to victory. What a player.

Santos needs to keep Mr. Filthy in good working order, because he was hanging alot of them. We get the victory, and a chance to win the series.

The Blind Squirrel should take a seat tomorrow. He is now 0 for 8 in the series. He reminds me of Travis Hafner in '08, who through 57 games had 5hr/24rbi/.197 before he got injured. That guy had averaged 30/100 for years and was an absolute monster (as we are all well aware, he killed us). He hasnt regained his power since, but he has injuries to blame. Im not sure what the hell is going on with Adam Dunn. He is one of the most prolific HR hitters of this millenium. We can only hope he finds it next season, because he projects out to .190/16/64. Unless he miraculously figures it out, he will hold the dubious honor of worst "star player" year in Sox history.


Peavy tomorrow, last time he came back he had a complete game masterpiece. Paulie going for 6 straight with a HR. Lets blow em out tomorrow, this northside squad of jokers is so bad, these games should not be close. Let's Go!

FielderJones
06-22-2011, 12:47 AM
All's well that ends well! That was some quality work by the Sox pen. Even Thornton pitched well, and was victimized by some Cubs luck channeling the Twinkies.

4.5 back. Indians are letting us hang around. I hope it bites them in August.

TDog
06-22-2011, 12:55 AM
Santos is back, and, fortunately, Konerko doesn't seem to be going anywhere. It is only June, but this is what an MVP season looks like. Let's hope he keeps it up.

I could have taken the game being called with the Cubs on base tonight. But that wouldn't have given Santos a chance to shine. The game was saved in the top of the eighth. Two on. Two out. Three sliders. No problem. And he was just as nasty in the ninth after the Sox failed to pad their lead.

One thing the Sox did nicely on offense today (besides sending Konerko up to hit) was scoring two runners from third base with less than two outs. The first was big. The second, the sacrifice fly by Morel with a two-strike count and one out, was huge, and ended up the winning run.

While I was checking to see if the game would resume, I was thinking of a game on a Sunday afternoon in 1999 in Wrigley Field. I'm pretty sure there was a rain delay that day, and after the skies cleared, the Sox tied the game and took the final lead of the game on a Mike Caruso home run. That completed a sweep of the series, that I seem to recall began with a rain-shortened White Sox win. For a few years, every time Cubs fans friends went on about Sammy Sosa, I countered with, big deal, adding that I had seen Mike Caruso hit a home run in Wrigley Field. That effectively shut them up. But no one cares about Sammy Sosa or remembers Mike Caruso anymore.

I'm happy that tonight's game didn't produce similar pleasant memories for Cubs fans.

The Immigrant
06-22-2011, 12:57 AM
Nice of Morel to pick up that bum Rios in the 7th. The rookie put together a couple of real quality at-bats tonight.

MetroPD
06-22-2011, 01:00 AM
.331/21/59. Unfortunately, it's probably not getting as much attention because of the numbers that Adrian Gonzalez is putting up in Boston (.350/15/68).
He never will because he's not on the Yanks or BoSox, but thats quite alright with me. I'm more than content with him staying anonymous as long as he stays with us and continues plugging along.

TDog
06-22-2011, 01:07 AM
...
I can't believe Guillen didn't PH for Dunn in the 8th.

I wouldn't have pinch-hit for Dunn. There aren't enough hitters on the bench to pinch hit in such a close game. Beckham might be more likely to hit into a double play than Dunn, and he's really the only hitter you could bring in. If you pinch-hit him for the DH, you can't bring him in on defense should the game go into extra innings. (You could, but you would lose your DH and have to send the pitcher up to hit, which isn't such a good thing in extra innings.)

Lillibridge was already in the game as a runner, and he wouldn't have pinch-hit for the DH anyway because he would have gone in for defense in the ninth whether Quentin reached or not.

The Sox had only three position players on the bench, a left-handed hitter, a backup catcher and Beckham.

Foulke You
06-22-2011, 01:09 AM
We could be 4.5 out by the end of the night if the scores hold up. You know, as ****ty as this team is playing right now, there are things to objectively consider.

The starting pitching has been there pretty much all year. Gavin was awful yesterday, but our quality start numbers are incredibly good. The bullpen has been terrific.
Good post. It's so hard not to get down on this team but yet here we sit only 4.5 games back. The great pitching we have and the parity within the American League this year is what gives me hope. It's June now and the offense is still regularly scoring 3 runs or less it seems. 2 for 12 with runners in scoring position tonight. How many times have we seen offensive performances like this? You can get away with that when you are getting the superior pitching but some nights, the offense is going to have to step up and bail out the pitching staff. This has rarely happened this year. Just ask Johnny Danks.

Foulke You
06-22-2011, 01:12 AM
.331/21/59. Unfortunately, it's probably not getting as much attention because of the numbers that Adrian Gonzalez is putting up in Boston (.350/15/68).
If Paulie had Jacoby Elsbury and Dustin Pedroia batting ahead of him, he would have 75-80RBIs right now. The fact that Paulie has 59RBI with Pierre and the rotating Sox #2 hitter carousel is truly amazing.

Lip Man 1
06-22-2011, 01:25 AM
Offense is still **** but they got the win and a chance for the series tomorrow.

My God sooner or later over 162 games the offense HAS to come around doesn't it? One stretch for a month could be all the difference in the world.

Indians lose, Tigers losing. Pretty damn good night despite the **** offense.

Lip

voodoochile
06-22-2011, 01:35 AM
Good win.............Santos was filthy!

Yes, but I was hoping he'd stop throwing strikes to Soriano that man will chase anything. First one set the table after that stick it in the dirt watch him get himself out.

Walnuts is on fire!

3 games under, 4.5 out...

:soxwin:

:)

:supernana:

hawkjt
06-22-2011, 01:58 AM
Another tense game,but when you win them,it is all good,as Hawk would say. PK is going the best of his career right now,at his advanced age...so cool.
Morel's at bat might be one of the biggest of the season. As Hawk would say,sometimes someone just needs to do it,and it will relax everyone and they start gettting it done! Morel got a little lucky on that at bat but he had great ''mindset'' on that swing..up the middle,and barrel of the bat. I think that is going to be the one at bat that could break the back of this inepititude just getting guys in and over.

I was worried about a 4 out save from Sergio,but he had it tonite,for the most part...much improved command with the breaking stuff.

I am ready to see a righty lineup tomorrow vs Davis...give me Lilly,Gordo,Carlos,PK,Alexei,Alex,Castro,Dunn,More l...and Jake back in form...gotta take this one, boys.

hi im skot
06-22-2011, 02:07 AM
It was worth sticking out the rain delay just to watch Santos.

BainesHOF
06-22-2011, 02:10 AM
Konerko is in some kind of zone right now. Morel is quietly turning into a player. His at-bat was very impressive. Santos did a great job.

Ozzie was his typical clown self when the subject of Pierre came up in his pregame presser. Pierre used to be a good player and remains a hard worker, but this is the big leagues. It's all about results. Ozzie is acting like he's Pierre's dad and playing favorites coaching a Little League team. And Kenny allows him to do it. Such an embarrassment.

Dibbs
06-22-2011, 02:20 AM
Konerko might be a hall of famer if he has a couple more good years in him. I never thought I would believe that, but you can't fault him for having his best years toward the latter part of his career.

A nice win tonight.

PeteWard
06-22-2011, 07:51 AM
Konerko is in some kind of zone right now. Morel is quietly turning into a player. His at-bat was very impressive. Santos did a great job.

Ozzie was his typical clown self when the subject of Pierre came up in his pregame presser. Pierre used to be a good player and remains a hard worker, but this is the big leagues. It's all about results. Ozzie is acting like he's Pierre's dad and playing favorites coaching a Little League team. And Kenny allows him to do it. Such an embarrassment.


That bunt last night deserves some recognition, especially in a one-run victory.

TomBradley72
06-22-2011, 08:10 AM
That bunt last night deserves some recognition, especially in a one-run victory.

Actually 2 very good bunts- the 2nd one seemed like the perfect "bunt for a hit"- but Pierre still got thrown out at 1st- he seemed "bewildered" that he had been thrown out- it was a great bunt- but if he doesn't have the speed to beat it out- another example up his decline.

Red Barchetta
06-22-2011, 08:39 AM
.331/21/59. Unfortunately, it's probably not getting as much attention because of the numbers that Adrian Gonzalez is putting up in Boston (.350/15/68).

I still hope Paulie gets voted in or picked for the ASG. It would be nice for him to play in front of his home town friends/family.

October26
06-22-2011, 08:47 AM
I'm glad the Sox won the game last night - it was well worth the wait. I'm tired but happy this morning. I do hate that these games are so close and the Sox still cannot get that clutch hit with RISP.

Buehrle + Konerko + Morel + Santos = awesome win!

Wash. Rinse. Repeat. No letdown tonight, please.

:gosox:

slavko
06-22-2011, 09:01 AM
Toldya he'd get back the release point on his slider. (Peavy as closer, ha!) Never noticed before that the slider is slower than the straight change. Keep it going , Sergio.

Speaking of throwing, Reed Johnson's throw on the winning Sac Fly was pitiful. Is he that noodlearmed, I don't follow the Cubs?

Nelfox02
06-22-2011, 09:07 AM
I still hope Paulie gets voted in or picked for the ASG. It would be nice for him to play in front of his home town friends/family.


I cant see how Konerko is NOT an all star? If he doesnt make it, dont know what to say.

My dark horse for this team in that regard is Humber.......he should be there too

russ99
06-22-2011, 09:10 AM
Ozzie was his typical clown self when the subject of Pierre came up in his pregame presser. Pierre used to be a good player and remains a hard worker, but this is the big leagues. It's all about results. Ozzie is acting like he's Pierre's dad and playing favorites coaching a Little League team. And Kenny allows him to do it. Such an embarrassment.

Pierre executes and gets one of our 3 RBIs, while the rest of the team leaves tons of guys in scoring position. A real embarrassment... :rolleyes:

If we had another leadoff option, that person would be rotated in, but we don't. If Lillibridge can hit better than .143 in his last 10 games, then he'd be rotated in more often.

It's not about favorites, it's about having no viable replacement. I've backed Pierre more than anyone this year, but if we somehow got someone like Reyes or even Gardner, I'd say bench the guy. If Pierre were given better treatment than a Dunn or Rios who are also struggling and still getting playing time to work things out, you'd have a better case for the playing favorites angle.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 09:15 AM
Pierre executes and gets one of our 3 RBIs, while the rest of the team leaves tons of guys in scoring position. A real embarrassment... :rolleyes:

If we had another leadoff option, that person would be rotated in, but we don't.

If Lillibridge can hit better than .143 in his last 10 games, then he'd be rotated in more often.

http://thegoldensombrero.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/alexei-ramirez.jpg

I realize that you're just playing Devil's Advocate and probably also realize that Pierre is crap, too, but I will not let this utterly insane "Juan Pierre is OK" argument sully these boards. Alexei leads off, Pierre is benched, Viciedo gets the call up.

By the way, Pierre's last 10 games: .209/.227/.209. 0 SB, 1 SH, 1 GDP. He's sure earning his PT, too, right?

**** Juan Pierre

russ99
06-22-2011, 09:22 AM
I realize that you're just playing Devil's Advocate and probably also realize that Pierre is crap, too, but I will not let this utterly insane "Juan Pierre is OK" argument sully these boards. Alexei leads off, Pierre is benched, Viciedo gets the call up.

By the way, Pierre's last 10 games: .209/.227/.209. 0 SB, 1 SH, 1 GDP. He's sure earning his PT, too, right?

**** Juan Pierre

I don't think Pierre's crap and I don't think he's OK. He's played poorly this year, no debate.

I also don't think a free-swinging slugger who strikes out a lot should lead off either.

Pierre/Lillibridge platoon at leadoff, Alexei bats 5th, Dunn is benched, Viciedo called up.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 09:32 AM
I don't think Pierre's crap and I don't think he's OK. He's played poorly this year, no debate.

I also don't think a free-swinging slugger who strikes out a lot should lead off either.

Pierre/Lillibridge platoon at leadoff, Alexei bats 5th, Dunn is benched, Viciedo called up.

God, please tell me how Alexei Ramirez qualifies as a "free-swinging" slugger. He's been to the plate 316 times this season and has 37 K. That's a K rate of 11.7%.

For comparison's sake, let's look at the other elite teams in the American League. In Boston, Jacoby Ellsbury has struck out 48 times in 325 PA (14.8%). In New York, Derek Jeter has struck out 31 times in 293 PA (10.6%). In Tampa, Sam Fuld and Johnny Damon have shared duties all year, Fuld strikes out 13.1% of the time, Damon 12.2%. In Texas, Ian Kinsler has struck out 32 times in 321 PA (9.9%). Looks like Alexei would fit in just fine with that group.

Meanwhile, free-swinging slugger Alexei Ramirez, despite having 10 less PA this season than super awesome lead-off man that cannot be benched Juan Pierre, has already made 20 fewer outs than Pierre.

Chez
06-22-2011, 10:03 AM
I left the ballpark at 9:30 -- figured they wouldn't resume until close to 11:00. Got to my car and heard Rongey say that the game would re-start at 10:15. AARGH! Got home to discover that we had no power from the storm (still don't have power) with trees down all over the neighborhood. Listened to the last three innings on my "emergency boombox" (1984 vintage!). Wish I had stayed, but happy they won.

With the Cubs throwing a LHP tonight, Dunn has got to be on the bench with Liilibridge playing RF and TCQ as the DH. Right?! I kind of feel bad for Dunn -- can't be much fun to get booed at home.

hawkjt
06-22-2011, 10:25 AM
Someone has to go down if Viciedo comes up. The list of possiblities is short:
Omar
Lilly
Juan
Teahen

So when people are screaming for Dayan,they are saying the Sox need to cut one of the above out of the organization.
Omar - I doubt it.
Lilly- fan uprising
Teahen- too much money.
Juan- the logical candidate.
So, fans are actually advocating for cutting Juan loose?
I can see why Ozzie is hesitant. Juan historically has strong second halves of the season,and once he is gone,he is gone for good.

Morel's sac fly and Juan's sac bunt are how you win close games.

Noneck
06-22-2011, 10:30 AM
Someone has to go down if Viciedo comes up. The list of possiblities is short:
Omar
Lilly
Juan
Teahen

So when people are screaming for Dayan,they are saying the Sox need to cut one of the above out of the organization.
Omar - I doubt it.
Lilly- fan uprising
Teahen- too much money.
Juan- the logical candidate.
So, fans are actually advocating for cutting Juan loose?
I can see why Ozzie is hesitant. Juan historically has strong second halves of the season,and once he is gone,he is gone for good.

Morel's sac fly and Juan's sac bunt are how you win close games.

You forgot Morel, he has options and Omar, Teahen would take over 3rd.

hawkjt
06-22-2011, 10:34 AM
Just me,but I consider Morel to be a fixture down at third for the next 6 years at least,and just could not see them sending him down. He is hitting .300 the last month+,and fielding very well. Morel better not be going anywhere or I do get hissed.

kufram
06-22-2011, 11:29 AM
TCM is one of my favourite players but I'd rather he didn't lead off. I like him up with men on base and he's not the most disciplined swinger re: the strike zone.

I'm not a huge fan of Pierre but I think he is the only leadoff option we have at present and I think he may have a better 2nd half. Also, at least some of our opposition still see him as a threat to run and that is worth something if only as a distraction.

BainesHOF
06-22-2011, 11:58 AM
Pierre executes and gets one of our 3 RBIs, while the rest of the team leaves tons of guys in scoring position. A real embarrassment... :rolleyes:

If we had another leadoff option, that person would be rotated in, but we don't. If Lillibridge can hit better than .143 in his last 10 games, then he'd be rotated in more often.

It's not about favorites, it's about having no viable replacement. I've backed Pierre more than anyone this year, but if we somehow got someone like Reyes or even Gardner, I'd say bench the guy. If Pierre were given better treatment than a Dunn or Rios who are also struggling and still getting playing time to work things out, you'd have a better case for the playing favorites angle.

Please. Pierre's speed is gone and it's not coming back. Lillibridge and Viciedo are obviously better choices. That's the embarrassment of it. Pierre can't hit or field. He should be released. Instead, Ozzie plays him virtually everyday and talks about him as if he's an all-star.

Crestani
06-22-2011, 12:32 PM
Please. Pierre's speed is gone and it's not coming back. Lillibridge and Viciedo are obviously better choices. That's the embarrassment of it. Pierre can't hit or field. He should be released. Instead, Ozzie plays him virtually everyday and talks about him as if he's an all-star.



Give this a rest, PLEASE!!

Lillibridge is a utility player and has never been an everyday player so you don't really know what you have with him, other than he is a free swinger, not a lead off guy who can get walks.

Viciedo is a power guy, not a lead off hitter period!

While Pierre's play this year has been part of the Sox's problem, it is not the real problem IMO....Dunn is the real problem and until he produces, will continue to be the problem. As it stands right now, the Sox are playing 8 bats against 9 every night with Dunn in the lineup..!!

Just my thoughts..!!

mzh
06-22-2011, 12:47 PM
I agree with whoever said that while it may be bothersome, Pierre's hitting isn't the real problem. FWIW, Pierre's second half average is 30 points higher than his first half over his career. He did the same thing as this last year, he was hitting .248 at this point in the season. Came back and hit ~.300 for the second half.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 12:54 PM
Give this a rest, PLEASE!!

Lillibridge is a utility player and has never been an everyday player so you don't really know what you have with him, other than he is a free swinger, not a lead off guy who can get walks.

Viciedo is a power guy, not a lead off hitter period!

While Pierre's play this year has been part of the Sox's problem, it is not the real problem IMO....Dunn is the real problem and until he produces, will continue to be the problem. As it stands right now, the Sox are playing 8 bats against 9 every night with Dunn in the lineup..!!

Just my thoughts..!!

Just because Adam Dunn sucks doesn't mean other guys don't suck. Big difference between Dunn and Pierre is that Dunn is signed for a few more seasons and has a very well established history of being one of the current eras sluggers. Pierre is a declining mid-30s OF who can't field his position and doesn't hit nearly enough to justify keeping a guy in the minors WHO PLAYS THE EXACT SAME POSITION AS HIM. Oh, and Juan Pierre will be gone in 2012, anyway.

Anyways, the Sox are really only playing 4... At best, the Sox regular lineup features only a handful of guys playing like MLB caliber players... Konerko, Alexei, Quentin, AJ... Beckham and Morel at times... Dunn, Rios, and Pierre are all equally pathetic right now.

KMcMahon817
06-22-2011, 01:06 PM
Paulie is just absolutely incredible. Can you imagine where this club would be without him? Just wow. Keep it up, big guy. I love watching you play.

russ99
06-22-2011, 01:15 PM
Just because Adam Dunn sucks doesn't mean other guys don't suck. Big difference between Dunn and Pierre is that Dunn is signed for a few more seasons and has a very well established history of being one of the current eras sluggers. Pierre is a declining mid-30s OF who can't field his position and doesn't hit nearly enough to justify keeping a guy in the minors WHO PLAYS THE EXACT SAME POSITION AS HIM. Oh, and Juan Pierre will be gone in 2012, anyway.

Anyways, the Sox are really only playing 4... At best, the Sox regular lineup features only a handful of guys playing like MLB caliber players... Konerko, Alexei, Quentin, AJ... Beckham and Morel at times... Dunn, Rios, and Pierre are all equally pathetic right now.

Adam Dunn is not being called out in every thread (even the attendance one), as if he's the cause of all our problems, demanding he be released, and people aren't wigging out on the "can't hit, can't field" nonsense.

Which he can, just not to the level of unrealistic expectations of some people. Does the guy need to hit .500 to be accepted? How many SB's would be enough, since 60+ last year wasn't enough for some people. Because he's not a home run hitter, does he have to produce twice as much?

Again, Pierre hasn't played well, but he's been elevated to beyond Kotsay-like scapegoat status this season. I can't tell if this is actually hatred for the guy, or misdirected hatred towards Ozzie and his managerial philosophy, as if Pierre himself represents what fans hate about Ozzie.

I've said enough on this the last few weeks. If you want to continue to scapegoat Pierre, have fun with it. It's counterproductive to try and change anyone's mind, especially if they're so taken in with the angry mob mentality.

TomBradley72
06-22-2011, 01:33 PM
Pierre executes and gets one of our 3 RBIs, while the rest of the team leaves tons of guys in scoring position. A real embarrassment... :rolleyes:

If we had another leadoff option, that person would be rotated in, but we don't. If Lillibridge can hit better than .143 in his last 10 games, then he'd be rotated in more often.



Both Lillibridge (.206) and Pierre (.215) are hitting about the same for June- but Brent's OBP is higher (.325) vs. Pierre's .276- and Lillibridge has been a true difference maker on defense.

With that said-I'd call up Viciedo- then use Vizquel as the primary lead off hitter- he can replace Morel/Ramirez/Beckham 3-4/week, on the other days- Lillibridge can lead off while he spells Quentin/Rios/Viciedo in the OF.

TomBradley72
06-22-2011, 01:37 PM
God, please tell me how Alexei Ramirez qualifies as a "free-swinging" slugger. He's been to the plate 316 times this season and has 37 K. That's a K rate of 11.7%.

For comparison's sake, let's look at the other elite teams in the American League. In Boston, Jacoby Ellsbury has struck out 48 times in 325 PA (14.8%). In New York, Derek Jeter has struck out 31 times in 293 PA (10.6%). In Tampa, Sam Fuld and Johnny Damon have shared duties all year, Fuld strikes out 13.1% of the time, Damon 12.2%. In Texas, Ian Kinsler has struck out 32 times in 321 PA (9.9%). Looks like Alexei would fit in just fine with that group.

Meanwhile, free-swinging slugger Alexei Ramirez, despite having 10 less PA this season than super awesome lead-off man that cannot be benched Juan Pierre, has already made 20 fewer outs than Pierre.

Great post- Alexei has a .346 OBP vs. Pierre's .314- since Pierre seems to no longer be a basestealing threat- Alexei at leadoff + Viciedo in LF would seem to be a big upgrade.

balke
06-22-2011, 01:39 PM
Just because Adam Dunn sucks doesn't mean other guys don't suck. Big difference between Dunn and Pierre is that Dunn is signed for a few more seasons and has a very well established history of being one of the current eras sluggers. Pierre is a declining mid-30s OF who can't field his position and doesn't hit nearly enough to justify keeping a guy in the minors WHO PLAYS THE EXACT SAME POSITION AS HIM. Oh, and Juan Pierre will be gone in 2012, anyway.

Anyways, the Sox are really only playing 4... At best, the Sox regular lineup features only a handful of guys playing like MLB caliber players... Konerko, Alexei, Quentin, AJ... Beckham and Morel at times... Dunn, Rios, and Pierre are all equally pathetic right now.

So why does Pierre have to go? Dunn is the one who can't hit. If you want Viciedo up - dump Teahan, Lillibridge, vizquel, or send Dunn down if you have to til he hits the baseball. Viciedo can DH or platoon LF. I'm not ready to dump a player who is mildly performing at this point based on Dunn's track record. Look at him... completely useless out there. The reason the Sox are losing games for the most part is our DH is one of the worst hitters the Sox have had period - not just this season. I'm clammoring for the 5-tool zeroes Ozzie shoves down the fans' throats year in and year out.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-22-2011, 01:47 PM
Just because Adam Dunn sucks doesn't mean other guys don't suck. Big difference between Dunn and Pierre is that Dunn is signed for a few more seasons and has a very well established history of being one of the current eras sluggers. Pierre is a declining mid-30s OF who can't field his position and doesn't hit nearly enough to justify keeping a guy in the minors WHO PLAYS THE EXACT SAME POSITION AS HIM. Oh, and Juan Pierre will be gone in 2012, anyway.

Anyways, the Sox are really only playing 4... At best, the Sox regular lineup features only a handful of guys playing like MLB caliber players... Konerko, Alexei, Quentin, AJ... Beckham and Morel at times... Dunn, Rios, and Pierre are all equally pathetic right now.

Unfortunately, you're speaking to a brick wall. Some people (and especially Ozzie) just don't understand the concept of upside.

JB98
06-22-2011, 01:48 PM
So why does Pierre have to go? Dunn is the one who can't hit. If you want Viciedo up - dump Teahan, Lillibridge, vizquel, or send Dunn down if you have to til he hits the baseball. Viciedo can DH or platoon LF. I'm not ready to dump a player who is mildly performing at this point based on Dunn's track record. Look at him... completely useless out there. The reason the Sox are losing games for the most part is our DH is one of the worst hitters the Sox have had period - not just this season. I'm clammoring for the 5-tool zeroes Ozzie shoves down the fans' throats year in and year out.

They can't send Dunn down without his consent. That's the rules of baseball. People aren't clamoring for Dunn to go because they understand it isn't feasible for business reasons. The Sox could cut Pierre tomorrow with few repercussions.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 02:11 PM
So why does Pierre have to go? Dunn is the one who can't hit. If you want Viciedo up - dump Teahan, Lillibridge, vizquel, or send Dunn down if you have to til he hits the baseball. Viciedo can DH or platoon LF. I'm not ready to dump a player who is mildly performing at this point based on Dunn's track record. Look at him... completely useless out there. The reason the Sox are losing games for the most part is our DH is one of the worst hitters the Sox have had period - not just this season. I'm clammoring for the 5-tool zeroes Ozzie shoves down the fans' throats year in and year out.

Nobody is ****ing saying Dunn isn't bad, but there's presedence that A) Dunn is a steady power hitter and B) some guys do struggle initially as a designated hitter. I didn't think it would happen with Adam, but before Monday's game, CSN showed a great graphic that showed Frank Thomas's numbers in his first year as a full-time DH. They plummetted, obviously not the level Dunn is at, but it is an adjustment.

That said, Juan Pierre just sucks hard. He's aging and on the decline, can't steal bases any more, plays defense HORRIFICALLY BAD and just overall is a terrible baseball player. I really don't see any reason he needs to be on this team, other than because he's Ozzie's pet. Juan is not going to be back here next season. Viciedo is immediately available to replace him, and it's not even like I'm suggesting we wave the white flag with 4 games behind the Indians, its pretty easily concievable that the Sox would be better off with Alexei leading off and Viciedo in the lineup as opposed to Pierre leading off and Alexei bouncing around all over the place.

hawkjt
06-22-2011, 02:25 PM
First off, this is a moot point discussing bringing up Viciedo until he passes the point in which he would qualify for a full year of service in MLB which would cut short by a year that the Sox control him....that will not be for another 10 days,roughly. He will not be brought up until July at the earliest.

Juan had an extremely rough start defensively,and he is not up to Lilly's standard(best outfielder on the team) but he has not made any major gaffes the last month or so,so I think the defense argument is not huge.
He is still better than Carlos,so flipping Carlos to left with Dayan in right is not going to result in a better outfield defensively,and probably worse.
Fans quickly forget that Juan finished second in the AL in defensive WAR last year,behind only Brett Garderner,so he was not horrible on defense last year...he was pretty good.

Juan's rbi bunt last nite might not look like much,but on this club,getting a runner in from third in any fashion makes it a good nite for that player. Same with Morel. I just hope Juan heats up in the next ten games,and shuts up the fans.

balke
06-22-2011, 02:28 PM
Nobody is ****ing saying Dunn isn't bad, but there's presedence that A) Dunn is a steady power hitter and B) some guys do struggle initially as a designated hitter. I didn't think it would happen with Adam, but before Monday's game, CSN showed a great graphic that showed Frank Thomas's numbers in his first year as a full-time DH. They plummetted, obviously not the level Dunn is at, but it is an adjustment.

That said, Juan Pierre just sucks hard. He's aging and on the decline, can't steal bases any more, plays defense HORRIFICALLY BAD and just overall is a terrible baseball player. I really don't see any reason he needs to be on this team, other than because he's Ozzie's pet. Juan is not going to be back here next season. Viciedo is immediately available to replace him, and it's not even like I'm suggesting we wave the white flag with 4 games behind the Indians, its pretty easily concievable that the Sox would be better off with Alexei leading off and Viciedo in the lineup as opposed to Pierre leading off and Alexei bouncing around all over the place.


I've already lived through Joe Borchard and would take Juan's talent over anyone on the bench except maybe Vizquel. Dunn is truly lost - send him down to find a rhythm - money be damned he needs to find his stroke - and in my opinion it is he who is occuppying Viciedo's defensive position on this team at this time.

If Dunn is a must stay - time to cut Teahan.

balke
06-22-2011, 02:35 PM
In reality I think you just wait the 10 days for Viciedo - and start up trade talks to clear roster room. Starting pitching is surplus - and maybe someone wants someone from the bench. Maybe even part with TCQ if it brings you an upgrade at 3B (yeah I like Morel - could net something nice in trade though) or in the OF.

Wait and see - Sox good trade chips.

KMcMahon817
06-22-2011, 02:41 PM
First off, this is a moot point discussing bringing up Viciedo until he passes the point in which he would qualify for a full year of service in MLB which would cut short by a year that the Sox control him....that will not be for another 10 days,roughly. He will not be brought up until July at the earliest.


This. I want Viciedo here as much as the next guy, but calling him now makes no sense.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 02:45 PM
I've already lived through Joe Borchard and would take Juan's talent over anyone on the bench except maybe Vizquel. Dunn is truly lost - send him down to find a rhythm - money be damned he needs to find his stroke - and in my opinion it is he who is occuppying Viciedo's defensive position on this team at this time.

If Dunn is a must stay - time to cut Teahan.

A) What talent does Juan possess that he must stay around? He doesn't steal bases, he hits for no power, and he's an absolute butcher in the field. What situation would you ever find yourself in where you'd say, "damn, what we need here is Juan Pierre!"*

B) You can't just "send Dunn down." He has a guaranteed Major League contract. He's here to stay for this year, plus three more. He's not going anywhere, any intelligent discussion regarding the Sox has to include that caveat as something that is just fundamentally understood. Juan Pierre is gone after this season. There's no point in keeping him around at all, especially considering, even if Viciedo gives you absolutely nothing on the offensive end, the Sox are a better team for getting Pierre's glove off the field, as he is without a doubt, one of the worst outfielders I have ever had to watch.

* other than being on the opposing team

doublem23
06-22-2011, 02:48 PM
In reality I think you just wait the 10 days for Viciedo - and start up trade talks to clear roster room. Starting pitching is surplus - and maybe someone wants someone from the bench. Maybe even part with TCQ if it brings you an upgrade at 3B (yeah I like Morel - could net something nice in trade though) or in the OF.

Wait and see - Sox good trade chips.

This. I want Viciedo here as much as the next guy, but calling him now makes no sense.

Are we 100% sure that rule applies to Dayan? He's had a Major League deal from the very beginning, even though he's spent most of it in th minor leagues. It has always been my understanding that we have him under control for 3 seasons after his original deal expires and that is it. There's no putting it off like with other minor league players, who have minor league deals.

EDIT: At least that is what B-R.com says: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/v/vicieda01.shtml

balke
06-22-2011, 03:02 PM
A) What talent does Juan possess that he must stay around? He doesn't steal bases, he hits for no power, and he's an absolute butcher in the field. What situation would you ever find yourself in where you'd say, "damn, what we need here is Juan Pierre!"*

B) You can't just "send Dunn down." He has a guaranteed Major League contract. He's here to stay for this year, plus three more. He's not going anywhere, any intelligent discussion regarding the Sox has to include that caveat as something that is just fundamentally understood. Juan Pierre is gone after this season. There's no point in keeping him around at all, especially considering, even if Viciedo gives you absolutely nothing on the offensive end, the Sox are a better team for getting Pierre's glove off the field, as he is without a doubt, one of the worst outfielders I have ever had to watch.

* other than being on the opposing team


Juan's had a bad season in the field - but Carl Everett was a way worse CFer. CLEE didn't cover ground out there and he's no Soriano. If you want to go off past season stats for Dunn - then why not Pierre? He stole 68 bags last year.

Juan is hitting and bunting and not annoying me at all. The Sox aren't losing games because he's in LF. They are losinng games because a 300 lb sack of meat is K-ing at an all-time record pace with nothing to show for it.

Viciedo will solve a lot more offensive problems for the Sox if he replaces Dunn.

And please don't liken Dunn to Frank Thomas. Frank Thomas a natural born hitter headed for the hall. Dunn is a glorified softball player with a hole in his swing.

Crestani
06-22-2011, 03:04 PM
Nobody is ****ing saying Dunn isn't bad, but there's presedence that A) Dunn is a steady power hitter and B) some guys do struggle initially as a designated hitter. I didn't think it would happen with Adam, but before Monday's game, CSN showed a great graphic that showed Frank Thomas's numbers in his first year as a full-time DH. They plummetted, obviously not the level Dunn is at, but it is an adjustment.

That said, Juan Pierre just sucks hard. He's aging and on the decline, can't steal bases any more, plays defense HORRIFICALLY BAD and just overall is a terrible baseball player. I really don't see any reason he needs to be on this team, other than because he's Ozzie's pet. Juan is not going to be back here next season. Viciedo is immediately available to replace him, and it's not even like I'm suggesting we wave the white flag with 4 games behind the Indians, its pretty easily concievable that the Sox would be better off with Alexei leading off and Viciedo in the lineup as opposed to Pierre leading off and Alexei bouncing around all over the place.

OK we get it! You have a real dislike for Pierre. He probably deserves it with his play, (THIS YEAR) as opposed to last year.

Having said that, some of us, (me) have that same dislike for Dunn..!! I was against Williams trying to trade for him at this time last year, and I freaked out when he signed him this winter. I had seen enough of him playing here in San Diego to realize his better days were behind him as well. I personally don't care, (it's not my money) that he is signed for three more years, I would DFA his ass because no one would pick his contract up anyway and send his sorry ass to Charlotte.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 03:24 PM
Juan's had a bad season in the field - but Carl Everett was a way worse CFer. CLEE didn't cover ground out there and he's no Soriano. If you want to go off past season stats for Dunn - then why not Pierre? He stole 68 bags last year.

Juan is hitting and bunting and not annoying me at all. The Sox aren't losing games because he's in LF. They are losinng games because a 300 lb sack of meat is K-ing at an all-time record pace with nothing to show for it.

Viciedo will solve a lot more offensive problems for the Sox if he replaces Dunn.

And please don't liken Dunn to Frank Thomas. Frank Thomas a natural born hitter headed for the hall. Dunn is a glorified softball player with a hole in his swing.

Uh, Pierre's awful play in left field has directly caused the Sox what? 2 games now at this point? And if you think having one of the worst everyday players get the most PA's on your team doesn't hurt them, I don't know how else to explain it to you. And, as bad as Adam Dunn has been, Juan Pierre has somehow been worse. Don't believe me? Pierre has created 242 outs in 326 PA, that's 0.74 outs per PA. Dunn has created 187 in 264 PA, 0.71 outs per PA. THAT'S OUR LEAD OFF HITTER.

OK we get it! You have a real dislike for Pierre. He probably deserves it with his play, (THIS YEAR) as opposed to last year.

Having said that, some of us, (me) have that same dislike for Dunn..!! I was against Williams trying to trade for him at this time last year, and I freaked out when he signed him this winter. I had seen enough of him playing here in San Diego to realize his better days were behind him as well. I personally don't care, (it's not my money) that he is signed for three more years, I would DFA his ass because no one would pick his contract up anyway and send his sorry ass to Charlotte.

Adam Dunn sucks, Juan Pierre sucks, but Dunn's here for a few more years and there's a guy ready to play Pierre's position at the drop of a hat in the minors. It's easy guys. There's no magic wand that can solve all this team's problems, but there's at least a way to solve one.

balke
06-22-2011, 03:36 PM
Uh, Pierre's awful play in left field has directly caused the Sox what? 2 games now at this point? And if you think having one of the worst everyday players get the most PA's on your team doesn't hurt them, I don't know how else to explain it to you. And, as bad as Adam Dunn has been, Juan Pierre has somehow been worse. Don't believe me? Pierre has created 242 outs in 326 PA, that's 0.74 outs per PA. Dunn has created 187 in 264 PA, 0.71 outs per PA. THAT'S OUR LEAD OFF HITTER.





Dunn's awful play as DH has likely caused at least 10 games seeing as he's in a position who's responsibility it is to drive in runs and the Sox have scored 2 runs or less nearly 30 times this season already. Sox have a top 5 hitter in the MLB batting 4th - and the guy hitting behind him either walks or strikes out. That's way worse than Pierre creating an out. Dunn is in the 3-4-5 spot all freaking season doing 0. And because chicks dig the long ball I gotta watch him waste a roster spot so the pinwheels start spinning maybe.

I said this guy would be Nick Swisher all over again - and here we are. Low average strikeout artist has worst year of career wearing silver and black.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 04:10 PM
I said this guy would be Nick Swisher all over again - and here we are. Low average strikeout artist has worst year of career wearing silver and black.

Perhaps thats more of an indictment of the guys working with our hitters, then maybe?

By the way, the ship works both ways, sure Dunn's not helping Paul, but neither are Pierre and whatever other bums have been hitting high in the order. Paul's hit 5 HR the last 5 games, guess how many RBI he has in that time span? 7. Problems all around, but again, Pierre is the easiest and cheapest to replace immediately.

TDog
06-22-2011, 04:12 PM
... Adam Dunn sucks, Juan Pierre sucks, but Dunn's here for a few more years and there's a guy ready to play Pierre's position at the drop of a hat in the minors. It's easy guys. There's no magic wand that can solve all this team's problems, but there's at least a way to solve one.

I basically agree with what you're saying, and I believed in February that Adam Dunn and Juan Pierre were fundamental flaws in the way this White Sox team was built, although I had hoped Pierre would be better defensively than he has been, particularly in April when he contributed mightily to bullpen problems.

And I had hoped Pierre would hit better early in the season than he did early last year, having adjusted to playing in Chicago in the American League. I had hoped Dunn would at least do as well for the Sox as Mark Reynolds is doing for the Orioles. Reynolds with the Diamondbacks is the reason Dunn didn't lead the National League in strikeouts the last three seasons. But this year, Reynolds has about 20 fewer strikeouts than Dunn, and he's hit almost twice as many home runs as Dunn while hitting about 50 points higher. The average, while still not something I would like to see in a Sox lineup, surprises me because Reynolds hit less than .200 while leading the NL in strikeouts last year.

Still, the big problem with the structure of this team is outfield defense. Rios can play center. I think he plays a little deeper than a great centerfielder should, but he probably doesn't have the skills necessary to play shallower. I wouldn't have any problem with Quentin in left. What the team has always needed is a superior defensive everyday rightfielder. I don't think you're going to be able to find that midseason.

Ideally, what I would like to see is the White Sox trading Pierre and Dunn, ideally because I don't know if it would be possible. There might be some NL contender market for Pierre, but moving him and bringing up Viciedo to take his place would degrade the defense. The only way it would make sense to trade Dunn would be if it were a total salary dump. The only team who would remotely be in position to do that would be the Yankees. I wouldn't even mind trading Dunn for Marquez, who the Yankees have toiling in their bullpen along with Boone Logan, their bullpen being so deep. But that isn't going to happen.

With a six-man starting rotation, the Sox really don't have the luxury of going with one less pitcher, which ideally would be the thing to do to bring up Viciedo.

I don't think it's necessarily a case of addition by subtraction to simply release Pierre. Being unburdened with Dunn and his contract, on the other hand, might help, especially in the offseason when the Sox could be in position to sign a different free agent. But dumping is Pierre is a realistic possibility. Severing ties with Dunn is not.

balke
06-22-2011, 04:15 PM
Perhaps thats more of an indictment of the guys working with our hitters, then maybe?


Oh - no. Dunn likes to "feel it out" as a hitter and won't deal with any mechanical issues with Walker. Just gotta feel that swing.

Can't blame Walker for this one. He swings at junk - and doesn't swing at strikes.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 04:23 PM
Oh - no. Dunn likes to "feel it out" as a hitter and won't deal with any mechanical issues with Walker. Just gotta feel that swing.

Can't blame Walker for this one. He swings at junk - and doesn't swing at strikes.

So essentially what you believe is, and please, stop me if I am wrong, is that the previous 6,000+ plate appearances Adam racked up as one of the most succesful power hitters in baseball was a complete fluke and the 264 (about 4% of his career to date) are his actual skills coming to fruition?

balke
06-22-2011, 04:51 PM
So essentially what you believe is, and please, stop me if I am wrong, is that the previous 6,000+ plate appearances Adam racked up as one of the most succesful power hitters in baseball was a complete fluke and the 264 (about 4% of his career to date) are his actual skills coming to fruition?

I believe his midpoint .240 avg. With 40 hrs is not what the Sox needed. I think he's exposed in this lineup and at DH and in the AL.

I think this type of season should've been somewhat expected after he played over his head last season. I'm sick of Kenny bringing in guys who can't hit and expecting them to hit 3-4 in the order. Dunn would be a nice midseason acquisition if the Sox had 2 good power hitters who hit for avg. Already. He's not what this team needs - there's plenty of guys who can't hit.

TDog
06-22-2011, 05:09 PM
So essentially what you believe is, and please, stop me if I am wrong, is that the previous 6,000+ plate appearances Adam racked up as one of the most succesful power hitters in baseball was a complete fluke and the 264 (about 4% of his career to date) are his actual skills coming to fruition?

I don't believe, have never believed, Adam Dunn was one of the most successful power hitters in baseball. He has hit a lot of home runs, but he has never focused on being a successful hitter. If he had, he would be working on going to the opposite field to take advantage of the shift teams employ against him.

The shift is not unlike the shift employed against Jim Thome, but he used to be a .300 hitter. The shift against Ted Williams was as extreme, but he failed to hit .300 in his career as many times as he hit over .400. Dunn has never hit for a high average, shift or no shift.

I would love to see Dunn work with Greg Walker the way Paul Konerko has worked with Greg Walker. I would love to see Dunn shorten his swing and protect the plate better with two strikes. That isn't happening.

I think what has happened to Dunn this year was predictable.

russ99
06-22-2011, 05:09 PM
There's a guy ready to play Pierre's position at the drop of a hat in the minors. It's easy guys. There's no magic wand that can solve all this team's problems, but there's at least a way to solve one.

Please, tell me who's in the minors who can fill Pierre's role as lead-off hitter. Or are you saying that the Sox would be more successful without a true leadoff hitter than with one, even if Juan has one of his usual second halve surges?

If we were out of it, I'd be all for benching Pierre and getting Viciedo some big league experience. But you really think the Sox would score more runs with a rookie pressed into a (hopefully) pennant race than a veteran lead-off man? Not to mention that Viciedo was Dunn-like trying to hit breaking pitches last year...

What happens if Viciedo hits .240 after you throw away you're only viable leadoff hitter. What's the plan then? Just give up? I guess that would get Ozzie fired, so I'm sure you'd be happy.

TomBradley72
06-22-2011, 05:14 PM
So essentially what you believe is, and please, stop me if I am wrong, is that the previous 6,000+ plate appearances Adam racked up as one of the most succesful power hitters in baseball was a complete fluke and the 264 (about 4% of his career to date) are his actual skills coming to fruition?

Keep in mind- over the 6000+ plate appearances- he has a career average vs. lefties in the .230's and w/RISP- .230s as well- lots of home runs- but pretty flawed as well.

TomBradley72
06-22-2011, 05:30 PM
Please, tell me who's in the minors who can fill Pierre's role as lead-off hitter. Or are you saying that the Sox would be more successful without a true leadoff hitter than with one, even if Juan has one of his usual second halve surges?

If we were out of it, I'd be all for benching Pierre and getting Viciedo some big league experience. But you really think the Sox would score more runs with a rookie pressed into a (hopefully) pennant race than a veteran lead-off man? Not to mention that Viciedo was Dunn-like trying to hit breaking pitches last year...

What happens if Viciedo hits .240 after you throw away you're only viable leadoff hitter. What's the plan then? Just give up? I guess that would get Ozzie fired, so I'm sure you'd be happy.

I think the question is how "viable" is Pierre as a lead off hitter- batting .215 for the month of June with 1 stolen base is not exactly "irreplaceable".

If Viciedo was added to the outfield- I think a mix of Ramirez/Vizquel/Lillibridge would be adequate in the lead off role for the final few months of the season.

Pierre is gone after this season- this is simply moving the timing up a few months based on his poor production, declining speed/ability to steal bases, and the fact that we can't afford to "carry" that lack of production thanks to anemic performance of Adam Dunn and Alex Rios (who is at least showing signs of life with a .260 average in June).

doublem23
06-22-2011, 05:37 PM
Please, tell me who's in the minors who can fill Pierre's role as lead-off hitter. Or are you saying that the Sox would be more successful without a true leadoff hitter than with one, even if Juan has one of his usual second halve surges?

If we were out of it, I'd be all for benching Pierre and getting Viciedo some big league experience. But you really think the Sox would score more runs with a rookie pressed into a (hopefully) pennant race than a veteran lead-off man? Not to mention that Viciedo was Dunn-like trying to hit breaking pitches last year...

What happens if Viciedo hits .240 after you throw away you're only viable leadoff hitter. What's the plan then? Just give up? I guess that would get Ozzie fired, so I'm sure you'd be happy.

Pierre is only leading off because our stubborn manager doesn't want to admit that his buddy is fading. What about Pierre is exactly "true leadoff hitter" material? The fact that he leads the team in outs made (by a wide margin)? The fact that his OBP is only 5th on the team, only ahead of some of the biggest slumpers on this team? Or maybe his 10/19 SB rate?

Alexei leads off. Viciedo in LF. Hopefully we're just waiting for June to play out and this can actually happen, assuming the Sox are just waiting to make sure Dayan's arbitration is postponed an extra year.

doublem23
06-22-2011, 05:41 PM
I don't believe, have never believed, Adam Dunn was one of the most successful power hitters in baseball. He has hit a lot of home runs, but he has never focused on being a successful hitter. If he had, he would be working on going to the opposite field to take advantage of the shift teams employ against him.

Dunn's marks against all active players:

Offensive WAR - 31.9 (32nd)
OBP - .378 (23rd)
OPS - .891 (20th)

The only people who think Adam Dunn was not one of the game's premier hitters before this year are the kinds of people who think it's still the '40s and the game is played by a bunch of slap-hitting middle infielders.

Tragg
06-22-2011, 05:44 PM
I see Pierre keeps his spot again tonight. The more people complain, the more Guillen will dig his heels in. Ozzie's dreadful eye for talent, plus a massive ego = bad players getting maximum playing time.

JB98
06-22-2011, 06:18 PM
Please, tell me who's in the minors who can fill Pierre's role as lead-off hitter. Or are you saying that the Sox would be more successful without a true leadoff hitter than with one, even if Juan has one of his usual second halve surges?

If we were out of it, I'd be all for benching Pierre and getting Viciedo some big league experience. But you really think the Sox would score more runs with a rookie pressed into a (hopefully) pennant race than a veteran lead-off man? Not to mention that Viciedo was Dunn-like trying to hit breaking pitches last year...

What happens if Viciedo hits .240 after you throw away you're only viable leadoff hitter. What's the plan then? Just give up? I guess that would get Ozzie fired, so I'm sure you'd be happy.

The Sox don't have a true leadoff hitter now. And doub has already nominated Ramirez for the role about 15 times, and I think he has a valid argument that you've never countered.

Leadoff hitter is not a position. You find your best nine dudes, then you decide what order to hit them in.

balke
06-22-2011, 06:22 PM
Dunn's marks against all active players:

Offensive WAR - 31.9 (32nd)
OBP - .378 (23rd)
OPS - .891 (20th)

The only people who think Adam Dunn was not one of the game's premier hitters before this year are the kinds of people who think it's still the '40s and the game is played by a bunch of slap-hitting middle infielders.

Power hitter he is. People can be sick of Thome/Swisher/Dunn .235 avg. Hitters who only contribute to a lineup that has an extreme deficit of hits. These guys get on base or hit solo shots. This team doesn't need that. Hasn't for years. Viciedo with no OBP would be a better fit for this team.

I hoped TCQ could raise his avg. And become that guy who can hit on front of Pk but it hasn't quite happened. Would love to see some kind of 30/30/.280+ action for the Sox.

But no - all of our money is wrapped up in OBP and solo shots year after year.

JB98
06-22-2011, 07:00 PM
Power hitter he is. People can be sick of Thome/Swisher/Dunn .235 avg. Hitters who only contribute to a lineup that has an extreme deficit of hits. These guys get on base or hit solo shots. This team doesn't need that. Hasn't for years. Viciedo with no OBP would be a better fit for this team.

I hoped TCQ could raise his avg. And become that guy who can hit on front of Pk but it hasn't quite happened. Would love to see some kind of 30/30/.280+ action for the Sox.

But no - all of our money is wrapped up in OBP and solo shots year after year.

Wouldn't we all? Those players don't grow on trees.

balke
06-22-2011, 07:23 PM
Wouldn't we all? Those players don't grow on trees.

120 million dollars on this team... and there's one guy who can do that. The Yankees have like 5 each year. The Mets and Cubs have guys overpaid who could do that at DH or 3B OF - pretty much beg the Sox to take them for the salary.


Too late now - and I would prefer money spent on pitching and defense - but when you see a guy like Dunn just sabotaging this team it is truly frustrating.

And to be fair - Kenny took a flyer on Manny but it obviously didn't work.

russ99
06-22-2011, 07:23 PM
The Sox don't have a true leadoff hitter now. And doub has already nominated Ramirez for the role about 15 times, and I think he has a valid argument that you've never countered.

Leadoff hitter is not a position. You find your best nine dudes, then you decide what order to hit them in.

What's the job of a leadoff hitter? Work the count, walk more than they strike out, put the ball in play, get on base for the run producers, try to advance and score runs.

If Ramirez has the aptitude for that role, I don't see it. The calls for Ramirez to lead off is just a shoehorning of the closest player we have in order just to get another power bat in the lineup. Ramirez is not patient, often gets behind in the count, and is a pull hitter who rarely uses the whole field, he's a good player, but is better lower in the order.

Of anyone on the roster, I'd go with Beckham if he can get his head together, but between Beckham and Pierre (who has a long history of success at the role), we're splitting hairs based on their lackluster play so far this year.

This issue isn't going away either. Pierre won't be back next year, and we have nobody in the system to replace him, unless Mitchell has a second half and Fall League performance for the ages. Personally, I'd love to see Kenny pry Bourn away from the Astros.

And for those who think we can do away with the leadoff hitter and have 9 guys swinging for the fences, that's not a successful tack. Boston, Texas, Philly, the Angels all have prototypical leadoff hitters and while the Yankees are leading off Jeter, they have two guys in Granderson and Gardner who fit the bill.

SOXSINCE'70
06-22-2011, 07:36 PM
Southpaw tomorrow, so bench Pierre and Dunn.

And get Beckham out of the doghouse, or wherever he's been hiding...

2 out of 3 ain't bad.Beckham in, Dunn sits and again, Pierre leads off.
Ozzie,Ozzie Ozzie.:dunno::shakehead: Juan Pierre must have some damn good blackmail on Ozzie Guillen.

Nellie_Fox
06-23-2011, 01:35 AM
...or send Dunn down if you have to til he hits the baseball.I don't know how many times this has to be explained. A player with five (or more) years of major league service time cannot be "sent down." The only way he can be sent to the minors is if the team makes him "designated for assignment." They can then place him on waivers, where any team can claim him, but that team must take his contract. If no team claims him, the team can ASK him to go to the minors, but he has the right to refuse and become a free agent, which means he still gets paid. If another team then signs him as a free agent, they only have to pay him the major-league minimum, with his old team still on the hook for the remainder of the contract.

Dunn might clear waivers, but I seriously doubt that he'd accept a minor-league assignment, because he knows damn well that another major-league team will certainly take the risk of grabbing him for minimum salary.

So, Dunn to the minors is simply not an option. Stop suggesting it.

balke
06-23-2011, 07:29 AM
If another team then signs him as a free agent, they only have to pay him the major-league minimum, with his old team still on the hook for the remainder of the contract.


At this rate that's where things are headed. Almost feel like Dunn is trying for this to happen since he flat out said he didn't want to be a DH.

TDog
06-23-2011, 07:50 PM
Dunn's marks against all active players:

Offensive WAR - 31.9 (32nd)
OBP - .378 (23rd)
OPS - .891 (20th)

The only people who think Adam Dunn was not one of the game's premier hitters before this year are the kinds of people who think it's still the '40s and the game is played by a bunch of slap-hitting middle infielders.

We have a fundamental disagreement on the nature of what constitutes a quality hitter. If you're Juan Pierre, on-base percentage means more than if you are Adam Dunn. Pitchers aren't pitching around Pierre. If you hit for power and your batting average is under .250, your on-base percentage is inflated by the defense putting you on base when it benefits the defense to put you on base. Often the thinking is that if you make a mistake to the next hitter, the consequences are less severe. Statistical analysis for hitters like Dunn put too much weight on his on-base percentage.

I have never believed Adam Dunn was one of baseball's premier hitters because he has never hit for a strong batting average and he strikes out far too much. If he cut his strikeouts in half, he would still strike out too much. I didn't think much of Dunn when he was with the Reds or Nationals. I have a lot of friends in Arizona who were happy to see him leave the Diamondbacks.

Seriously, if Dunn walked so much in his career because he had such a great batter's eye for the strike zone, he wouldn't be called out on strikes nearly as often as he has with the White Sox.

Adam Dunn is what he always has been. He just misses more pitches, although some didn't believe that would be possible. And, really, fans don't want him to change. They just want him to stop missing so many pitches. (Maybe he isn't reading the same scouting reports Paul Konerko is reading.) If Adam Dunn is going to insist on being a dead-pull power hitter who doesn't shorten his swing with two strikes, you can't blame Greg Walker.

Foulke You
06-24-2011, 12:27 AM
I have never believed Adam Dunn was one of baseball's premier hitters because he has never hit for a strong batting average and he strikes out far too much. If he cut his strikeouts in half, he would still strike out too much. I didn't think much of Dunn when he was with the Reds or Nationals. I have a lot of friends in Arizona who were happy to see him leave the Diamondbacks.

Seriously, if Dunn walked so much in his career because he had such a great batter's eye for the strike zone, he wouldn't be called out on strikes nearly as often as he has with the White Sox.

I don't think anyone felt that Dunn was one of MLB's premier hitters. However, what can't be disputed is that Dunn was one of the MLB's premier SLUGGERS. If you disagree with that, you are denial. He was brought here to hit HRs and doubles, drive in runs, and be a major run producer in this lineup. End of story. I don't think anyone had any thoughts of him hitting over .250 and I didn't care at all if Dunn struck out 180 times this year as long as he was blasting the ball out of the park and driving in 100 because that is what our lineup needed. He just isn't doing that yet and herein lies the problem.

Noneck
06-24-2011, 12:42 AM
At this rate that's where things are headed. Almost feel like Dunn is trying for this to happen since he flat out said he didn't want to be a DH.

Do you really think the Sox would salt and pepper 48M?

TDog
06-24-2011, 01:52 AM
I don't think anyone felt that Dunn was one of MLB's premier hitters. However, what can't be disputed is that Dunn was one of the MLB's premier SLUGGERS. If you disagree with that, you are denial. He was brought here to hit HRs and doubles, drive in runs, and be a major run producer in this lineup. End of story. I don't think anyone had any thoughts of him hitting over .250 and I didn't care at all if Dunn struck out 180 times this year as long as he was blasting the ball out of the park and driving in 100 because that is what our lineup needed. He just isn't doing that yet and herein lies the problem.

The premier sluggers in baseball today are expected to hit over .250. Right now, there are six players with at least 20 home runs, and four of them are hitting over .300. Mark Teixeira is hitting under .250, but he has a lifetime average of over .280.

My argument with Dunn has always been that I believed he was the sort of hitter the White Sox didn't need. I know people disagree with that, although there are arguments in postgame threads that Guillen is an idiot for not pinch-hitting for Dunn. As it pertains to this thread, I think what Dunn has done for the Sox this year should have been predictable based on the one-dimensional nature of his offense making the transition to a new league. Specifically, blaming Greg Walker for Dunn being an unsuccessful one-dimensional hitter when he put up better numbers as a one-dimensional hitter in the National League is ridiculous.