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TomBradley72
06-16-2011, 06:45 PM
Cast your vote.

Even the Twins radio announcers (had to listen today via XM) were commenting that Pierre looks like he's lost a step- and that he had 27 SB's last year at this time vs. the 10 he has right now.

SoxSpeed22
06-16-2011, 06:47 PM
Is there going to be a poll?
Regardless, more Brent please.

WhiteSox5187
06-16-2011, 06:54 PM
Lillibridge will get exposed as an everyday player. It's time to see what Dayan can do in either left or right. Were Pierre stealing bases at the clip he was last year I'd say we should stick with him, but I think his legs are gone.

konerko 14
06-16-2011, 07:34 PM
bring up Viciedo, Pierre can't hit for power or drive in runs, he's hitting .260, and gets thrown out stealing almost as much as he's safe.

dickallen15
06-16-2011, 07:48 PM
Cast your vote.

Even the Twins radio announcers (had to listen today via XM) were commenting that Pierre looks like he's lost a step- and that he had 27 SB's last year at this time vs. the 10 he has right now.

If you really want to see a slide, compare Rios' numbers from June 16th last year to June 16th this year. They both need to be on the bench.

Frater Perdurabo
06-16-2011, 07:49 PM
Given the personnel on the roster, I would platoon Lillibridge and Pierre through the All Star Break, but not necessarily on a lefty/righty platoon. Rather, I think I would alternate them each day. That will give each player an opportunity to earn the job. Ideally one of them seizes the LF/leadoff job and we're good. But if both fail, there's still time to promote Vicideo, or trade Viciedo for a decent outfielder who can hit, run, and play the field.

dickallen15
06-16-2011, 07:50 PM
Lillibridge will get exposed as an everyday player. It's time to see what Dayan can do in either left or right. Were Pierre stealing bases at the clip he was last year I'd say we should stick with him, but I think his legs are gone.
Yes he will, but Pierre and Rios get exposed every day. Let the little guy play until he starts playing like the overpaid bum he'd be replacing. Viciedo/Lillibridge in, Pierre/Rios out.

Lip Man 1
06-16-2011, 08:03 PM
Tom:

Shhhhsh! Better not let Russ see the fact that now opposing announcers are commentating on what Sox fans have been saying for months.

Lip

Sox
06-16-2011, 08:20 PM
Yes he will, but Pierre and Rios get exposed every day. Let the little guy play until he starts playing like the overpaid bum he'd be replacing. Viciedo/Lillibridge in, Pierre/Rios out.

This would work, but unfortunately Ozzie is the one making the decision to start Pierre over Lillibridge. As long as Ozzie is the manager I don't see Lillibridge or Viciedo getting much playing time or platooning while Rios and Pierre are on this team.

cws05champ
06-16-2011, 08:26 PM
Lillibridge in for 4 days a week until he proves he can't do it. If Pierre takes the demotion and starts to play better in the 2nd half(which he historically done) he can regain his job. If Lillibridge gets overexposed and Pierre still sucks in the next 3 weeks, then Viciedo needs to come up.

TomBradley72
06-16-2011, 08:27 PM
Tom:

Shhhhsh! Better not let Russ see the fact that now opposing announcers are commentating on what Sox fans have been saying for months.

Lip

It was right after he laid down the bunt where he was thrown on by 4 steps- their exact words were "boy...he looks like he's really slowed down..."

Speed doesn't "slump" it just goes away.

Hitmen77
06-16-2011, 09:22 PM
Carlos May - The only player in MLB history to have his birthday on the back of his jersey: May 17

Moses_Scurry
06-16-2011, 09:52 PM
Cut Pierre and have him announce the team he signs with on a one hour, prime time special on ESPN.

soxfan1965
06-16-2011, 11:26 PM
Lillebridge subbing for Pierre and Rios on a regular basis would be fine.

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7093

PalehosePlanet
06-16-2011, 11:36 PM
Stay w/Pierre has 3 votes.

Question: Why does Russ get to vote 3 times while I only get to vote once?

Bring up the tank, pronto!

BringHomeDaBacon
06-16-2011, 11:53 PM
It was right after he laid down the bunt where he was thrown on by 4 steps- their exact words were "boy...he looks like he's really slowed down..."

Speed doesn't "slump" it just goes away.

The White Sox are stupid for not anticipating this decline. The following players ceased being everyday players at age 33 (Pierre's current age):

Willie Wilson, Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman, Omar Moreno, DeLino DeShields

Almost player on the all time steals leader board experienced a significant decline in steals at age 33-34 and the ones that managed to continue playing went from stealing 50-70 every year to 20 -30 and that was it.

It's over for Juan Pierre folks. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that he wasn't once good, it just means that's how this type of players ages.

And the White Sox are damn fools for not knowing that. It took me about 10 minutes of clicking around b-ref to notice the blatant trend at age 33.

See for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_career.shtml

CWSpalehoseCWS
06-17-2011, 01:16 AM
My vote goes for bringing up Viciedo, but I'd prefer not to touch Quentin. He finally settled in and I'd hate to mess with that mental of his.

BainesHOF
06-17-2011, 03:04 AM
The White Sox are stupid for not anticipating this decline. The following players ceased being everyday players at age 33 (Pierre's current age):

Willie Wilson, Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman, Omar Moreno, DeLino DeShields

Almost player on the all time steals leader board experienced a significant decline in steals at age 33-34 and the ones that managed to continue playing went from stealing 50-70 every year to 20 -30 and that was it.

It's over for Juan Pierre folks. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that he wasn't once good, it just means that's how this type of players ages.

And the White Sox are damn fools for not knowing that. It took me about 10 minutes of clicking around b-ref to notice the blatant trend at age 33.

See for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_career.shtml

Totally awesome post.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2011, 06:19 AM
The White Sox are stupid for not anticipating this decline. The following players ceased being everyday players at age 33 (Pierre's current age):

Willie Wilson, Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman, Omar Moreno, DeLino DeShields

Almost player on the all time steals leader board experienced a significant decline in steals at age 33-34 and the ones that managed to continue playing went from stealing 50-70 every year to 20 -30 and that was it.

It's over for Juan Pierre folks. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that he wasn't once good, it just means that's how this type of players ages.

And the White Sox are damn fools for not knowing that. It took me about 10 minutes of clicking around b-ref to notice the blatant trend at age 33.

See for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_career.shtml

Thanks for the research, even though it's depressing. But how did Rickey Henderson steal 66 bases in 1998 at age 39? (It should be noted that this season was an outlier by this stage of his career.)

Speed doesn't slump. It just goes away, never to return.

doublem23
06-17-2011, 06:37 AM
The White Sox are stupid for not anticipating this decline. The following players ceased being everyday players at age 33 (Pierre's current age):

Willie Wilson, Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman, Omar Moreno, DeLino DeShields

Almost player on the all time steals leader board experienced a significant decline in steals at age 33-34 and the ones that managed to continue playing went from stealing 50-70 every year to 20 -30 and that was it.

It's over for Juan Pierre folks. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that he wasn't once good, it just means that's how this type of players ages.

And the White Sox are damn fools for not knowing that. It took me about 10 minutes of clicking around b-ref to notice the blatant trend at age 33.

See for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_career.shtml

Well, I agree with the spirit of this post. I'm sure there have been speedy, slap-hitter types that were productive at age 33, 34, 35, etc. (Scotty Pods, for example).

However, what is so frustrating about this is that 1/3 of the way through the season, it's OBVIOUS Pierre doesn't have it any more and not only is he not platooning, he's batting lead-off every day. He's 3rd in the AL in plate appearances right now. This has just become a joke.

korhead
06-17-2011, 07:46 AM
My vote goes for bringing up Viciedo, but I'd prefer not to touch Quentin. He finally settled in and I'd hate to mess with that mental of his.

This.

I can't ever see Viciedo as a RF. Your worst OF plays left field. Your best arm is in RF, Even in the Sox defense challenged outfield, Viciedo would far and away be the worst OF. If he must play a defensive position on the current roster, it's gotta be LF.

TaylorStSox
06-17-2011, 07:47 AM
I'm generally a big fan of speedy lead off guys. Getting an early run can really help the mindset of your starting pitcher. Also, they get in the head of the opposing pitcher. Pierre is no longer that guy. He needs to go.

KW should apologize to baseball fans everywhere for everyday that Viciedo is hidden in AAA. The kid's got one of the most exciting bats in all of baseball. If killing the ball were a crime, Viciedo would be on death row. I'm convinced he would generate more runs than a traditional lead off hitter. Isn't that all the really matters?

GoSox2K3
06-17-2011, 08:16 AM
Cast your vote.

Even the Twins radio announcers (had to listen today via XM) were commenting that Pierre looks like he's lost a step- and that he had 27 SB's last year at this time vs. the 10 he has right now.

Tom:

Shhhhsh! Better not let Russ see the fact that now opposing announcers are commentating on what Sox fans have been saying for months.

Lip

It's obvious that the Twins announcers are simply part of the vast WSI witch hunt against Pierre.

Also, don't tell hawkjt that those announcers have apparently decided to make Pierre the total scapegoat for all the Sox woes.

miker
06-17-2011, 08:22 AM
The JP/Lilly platoon should have started already and when that didn't work, call up the Tank and just live with the fact that we don't have a "traditional" lead off hitter in the lineup.

If its truly physical with Juan, then continuing to play him will not get him out of it.

No guarantee that this change would improve the results, however...

guillensdisciple
06-17-2011, 08:23 AM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

That's all you need to know.

russ99
06-17-2011, 08:27 AM
It was right after he laid down the bunt where he was thrown on by 4 steps- their exact words were "boy...he looks like he's really slowed down..."

Speed doesn't "slump" it just goes away.

He laid the bunt right in front of the pitcher.

Juan's not playing up to his expectations, but the speed is still there. If anything his first step quickness is a bit off.

If he were hitting and getting on base at his usual level, nobody would complain. Well maybe the "we want a 16-inch softball team" fans would...

BTW - I voted for the platoon. Pierre needs to step up his game to deserve a full-time role.

It's obvious that the Twins announcers are simply part of the vast WSI witch hunt against Pierre.

Also, don't tell hawkjt that those announcers have apparently decided to make Pierre the total scapegoat for all the Sox woes.

If he's not the scapegoat, then why is everyone flipping out about Pierre whenever we lose, even if he goes 2-4 and scores a run? Especially when we go 0-9 with RISP?

Hitmen77
06-17-2011, 08:29 AM
The White Sox are stupid for not anticipating this decline. The following players ceased being everyday players at age 33 (Pierre's current age):

Willie Wilson, Lance Johnson, Vince Coleman, Omar Moreno, DeLino DeShields

Almost player on the all time steals leader board experienced a significant decline in steals at age 33-34 and the ones that managed to continue playing went from stealing 50-70 every year to 20 -30 and that was it.

It's over for Juan Pierre folks. That doesn't mean he's a bad guy or that he wasn't once good, it just means that's how this type of players ages.

And the White Sox are damn fools for not knowing that. It took me about 10 minutes of clicking around b-ref to notice the blatant trend at age 33.

See for yourself:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/SB_career.shtml

This is another way that having almost no talent in your farm system matters.

For 2011, they may have been hoping that Jordan Danks or Jared Mitchell would be MLB ready. Danks has floundered like oh-so-many Sox prospects and Mitchell has been delayed significantly by missing an entire year to an injury.

Meanwhile, since the Sox system produces so little talent, they have to over-extend themselves (according to KW) on payroll to fill holes in our lineup.

So, it could very well be that Sox management saw the risk of Pierre reaching that "over the hill" point, but there wasn't much they could do about it due to lack of talent and lack of additional funds.

miker
06-17-2011, 08:31 AM
So, it could very well be that Sox management saw the risk of Pierre reaching that "over the hill" point, but there wasn't much they could do about it due to lack of talent and lack of additional funds.

How true. How sadly true. :(:

doublem23
06-17-2011, 08:31 AM
This is another way that having almost no talent in your farm system matters.

For 2011, they may have been hoping that Jordan Danks or Jared Mitchell would be MLB ready. Danks has floundered like oh-so-many Sox prospects and Mitchell has been delayed significantly by missing an entire year to an injury.

Meanwhile, since the Sox system produces so little talent, they have to over-extend themselves (according to KW) on payroll to fill holes in our lineup.

So, it could very well be that Sox management saw the risk of Pierre reaching that "over the hill" point, but there wasn't much they could do about it due to lack of talent and lack of additional funds.

They didn't sign Juan to that contract, they traded for him.

miker
06-17-2011, 08:33 AM
If he's not the scapegoat, then why is everyone flipping out about Pierre whenever we lose, even if he goes 2-4 and scores a run? Especially when we go 0-9 with RISP?

Agreed. Juan is just one of many problems with this team and this organization.

Apparently some like to go for the low hanging fruit.

Tragg
06-17-2011, 08:39 AM
Thanks for the research, even though it's depressing. But how did Rickey Henderson steal 66 bases in 1998 at age 39? (It should be noted that this season was an outlier by this stage of his career.)

Speed doesn't slump. It just goes away, never to return.
Henderson's a hall of famer.
And then there are Deshields, Willie Wilson, etc....and Pierre.

34 Inch Stick
06-17-2011, 08:45 AM
http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?pos=3B&sid=t494&t=p_pbp&pid=493364

That's all you need to know.

I'm troubled by the lack of walks and the disparity in L/R splits but he's doing some great things in AAA right now.

I think you stick with Pierre through interleague

TomBradley72
06-17-2011, 08:49 AM
He laid the bunt right in front of the pitcher.

Juan's not playing up to his expectations, but the speed is still there. If anything his first step quickness is a bit off.

If he were hitting and getting on base at his usual level, nobody would complain. Well maybe the "we want a 16-inch softball team" fans would...

BTW - I voted for the platoon. Pierre needs to step up his game to deserve a full-time role.



If he's not the scapegoat, then why is everyone flipping out about Pierre whenever we lose, even if he goes 2-4 and scores a run? Especially when we go 0-9 with RISP?

They talked about it for a few minutes- the speed comment was from watching him run to first- not that he was out by four steps due to (another) mediocre bunt.

It really seems like you are in complete denial and ignoring the obvious when it comes to Pierre- his stolen bases are down ~65% vs.this time last year, his defense has dropped off alot from last year, and his bunting (either for hits or sacs) has also dropped off- it's almost the All Star break- this isn't a slump- it's the end of his career.

He's in the final year of his contract- I doubt he'll be in the league next year- he's no longer a starter, and due to his ability to ONLY play LF- he's not a very valuable bench guy.

He's a great guy, a hard worker, and he's had a solid career- but it's time to move on if we want to salvage this season.

TomBradley72
06-17-2011, 08:54 AM
Agreed. Juan is just one of many problems with this team and this organization.

Apparently some like to go for the low hanging fruit.

I think the main reason is that we have 1-2 alternatives within the organization (Lillibridge or Viciedo).

When it comes to pitching or any other position- there are no real alternatives in the organization- so not much reason for debate.

Fisk Fan
06-17-2011, 09:01 AM
Unfortunately, we've all seen this movie before. From Darin Erstad, to DeWayne Wise, Mark Kotsay, Rob Mackowiak, (insert players I forgot here). The list goes on... and our fearless leader trotting out these piles of dung at a great detriment to the team, just to prove to everyone that he was the F*ing Manager, when there were obviously better choices available.

Now, here you have a player, Brent Lillibridge, who has been hot as a pistol for the past several weeks, slowly having playing time taken away in favor of lesser players. Why? Lilli is being forcably cooled off by not playing, so that Pierre and Rios can get their time. Why can't we play the hot player until that player is no longer hot? Or, actually play a younger player with upside that has been stinging the ball in AAA? Either one of these options is arguably better than a lead-off hitter who can't get on base and is a below-average fielder, who steals bases at 50% efficiency.

Sooner or later, someone with some actual baseball sense needs to step in and make better decisions. This team needs to play the lineup that gives them the best chance to win, regardless of the name on the back of the jersey. Otherwise, this team is going nowhere and we will suffer the same fate we have been accustomed to... another mediocre season.

I vote for anything other than status quo....

dickallen15
06-17-2011, 09:06 AM
He laid the bunt right in front of the pitcher.

Juan's not playing up to his expectations, but the speed is still there. If anything his first step quickness is a bit off.

If he were hitting and getting on base at his usual level, nobody would complain. Well maybe the "we want a 16-inch softball team" fans would...

BTW - I voted for the platoon. Pierre needs to step up his game to deserve a full-time role.



If he's not the scapegoat, then why is everyone flipping out about Pierre whenever we lose, even if he goes 2-4 and scores a run? Especially when we go 0-9 with RISP?

You are right, he's not the only problem, maybe not even the biggest one, but he is a problem and the Sox have a very ready replacement, something that has been quite rare the past several years, but they refuse to use it.

Hitmen77
06-17-2011, 09:09 AM
They didn't sign Juan to that contract, they traded for him.

I didn't say they signed him. :wink:

My comment about the Sox expending payroll to fill too many of their holes includes trading for pricey veterans as well as signing players.

My point is, that I don't think the Sox simply failed to anticipate the idea that Pierre was aging. Rather, I don't think they had much in the way of alternatives to Pierre for 2011 (both within the organization or via acquisition).

Hitmen77
06-17-2011, 09:11 AM
Agreed. Juan is just one of many problems with this team and this organization.

Apparently some like to go for the low hanging fruit.

The Sox may have more problems with their offense then they can fix, but I think starting with low hanging fruit problems is actually a good idea.

24thStFan
06-17-2011, 09:28 AM
Lillebridge subbing for Pierre and Rios on a regular basis would be fine.

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7093
This should be the approach until: (a) Lillibridge is "overexposed"; or (b) Pierre and/or Rios heat up.

C'mon...it's not rocket science, Ozzie!

TomBradley72
06-17-2011, 09:33 AM
I didn't say they signed him. :wink:

My comment about the Sox expending payroll to fill too many of their holes includes trading for pricey veterans as well as signing players.

My point is, that I don't think the Sox simply failed to anticipate the idea that Pierre was aging. Rather, I don't think they had much in the way of alternatives to Pierre for 2011 (both within the organization or via acquisition).

Especially heading into last year when the acquired him- there were no internal alternaitves at the lead off spot which had been a problem since Pods was in the role.

Our poor minor league system has really hurt us in replacing key players after they leave- CF has been a problem since Rowand left (excluding 2010 version of Rios), 3rd base has been a problem since Crede left (Morel is showing promise), LF/lead off has been a problem since Pods left.

A long list of failed prospects- Owens, Anderson, Fields as well as stop gap veterans- Mackowiak, Erstad, Swisher.

russ99
06-17-2011, 09:34 AM
They talked about it for a few minutes- the speed comment was from watching him run to first- not that he was out by four steps due to (another) mediocre bunt.

It really seems like you are in complete denial and ignoring the obvious when it comes to Pierre- his stolen bases are down ~65% vs.this time last year, his defense has dropped off alot from last year, and his bunting (either for hits or sacs) has also dropped off- it's almost the All Star break- this isn't a slump- it's the end of his career.

He's in the final year of his contract- I doubt he'll be in the league next year- he's no longer a starter, and due to his ability to ONLY play LF- he's not a very valuable bench guy.

He's a great guy, a hard worker, and he's had a solid career- but it's time to move on if we want to salvage this season.

Pierre only played a half-season for the Dodgers before last year, so the grind of playing baseball every day didn't wear him down, and he was able to perform at a high level for us last year.

Which is even more of a reason to platoon him with Lillibridge.

IMO he's like Dunn has been. Frustrated (especially considering the insane amount of work he puts in) and pressing too hard, and not playing his game. If he has some success, relaxes and gets back on track, we could see the expected results.

I don't believe for a second that his career is done. Juan has been there and done that twice already and come back.

As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

Moses_Scurry
06-17-2011, 09:48 AM
Pierre only played a half-season for the Dodgers before last year, so the grind of playing baseball every day didn't wear him down, and he was able to perform at a high level for us last year.

Which is even more of a reason to platoon him with Lillibridge.

IMO he's like Dunn has been. Frustrated (especially considering the insane amount of work he puts in) and pressing too hard, and not playing his game. If he has some success, relaxes and gets back on track, we could see the expected results.

I don't believe for a second that his career is done. Juan has been there and done that twice already and come back.

As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know that he puts in an "insane amount of work"? For all I know, he goes home after the game and plays XBox while eating easy cheese straight from the can. Do you have inside information on this? I'm sure he puts in work outside of the games, unlike my hyperbolic suggestion above, but does he really put any more work in than the average player?

russ99
06-17-2011, 09:54 AM
Just out of curiosity, how do you know that he puts in an "insane amount of work"? For all I know, he goes home after the game and plays XBox while eating easy cheese straight from the can. Do you have inside information on this? I'm sure he puts in work outside of the games, unlike my hyperbolic suggestion above, but does he really put any more work in than the average player?

They had a feature on CSN on his workout routine during spring training.

dickallen15
06-17-2011, 09:59 AM
Pierre only played a half-season for the Dodgers before last year, so the grind of playing baseball every day didn't wear him down, and he was able to perform at a high level for us last year.

Which is even more of a reason to platoon him with Lillibridge.

IMO he's like Dunn has been. Frustrated (especially considering the insane amount of work he puts in) and pressing too hard, and not playing his game. If he has some success, relaxes and gets back on track, we could see the expected results.

I don't believe for a second that his career is done. Juan has been there and done that twice already and come back.

As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

What has Pierre contributed to the team this season? Its almost halfway over? At what point do you look at the kid hitting .325 in AAA and say, "hey, we need offense, this kid can really hit?" Why are you so concerned about hurting Juan Pierre's feelings? He'll still get paid sitting on the bench. Its about winning, not hoping Juan comes back. He's not helping the team win.

Like I've said before, Juan Pierre seems like a really nice guy. My next door neighbor is a really nice guy, but I wouldn't want him leading off for the White Sox.

doublem23
06-17-2011, 10:00 AM
As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

That's bull****, Pods was revered when he was here and I go so far as to say he is still one of the most popular players from the 2005 team despite only being in a Sox uniform for less than 4 seasons.

Fans don't like players who suck at their jobs, regardless if they are power hitters, speedy slap hitters, defensive specialists, or pitchers.

The problem with guys like Pierre and Podsednik is that once they can no longer get on base consistently or steal bases, they bring essentially nothing to the table.

JermaineDye05
06-17-2011, 10:01 AM
The decision really isn't that complicated. He's sucking to the point where he's hurting the team.

You don't let him play.

TomBradley72
06-17-2011, 10:20 AM
As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

I'm not one of them.

I think he can still hit- I just don't think he's in a baserunning "slump"- over May and June- he's 5/7 in stolen bases- an overall pace of 20 stolen bases over a full season- he's clearly had to be more selective vs. his 50% failure rate in April.

Last year- he was 20/25 in May/June- that's a pretty big drop off- along with being down 65% this year vs. where he was on the same date a year ago. Is Juan Pierre really an everyday major league outfielder if he can only steal 20-25 bases a year? Do you really think it's just a "slump"? If so- it's now a 2.5 month slump.

Do you really think someone will sign him for 2012 to be a starting OF? If not as a starter- do you think he could be a good use of a roster spot off the bench when he can only play one position?

He seems like a great guy- it will be heartbreaking to tell him it's over- but I just don't see any evidence that it's not.

cws05champ
06-17-2011, 10:22 AM
Pretty much sums it up:

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Dayan-Viciedo-feasting-in-minors-Juan-Pierre-st?urn=fantasy-wp3973

TomBradley72
06-17-2011, 10:59 AM
Pretty much sums it up:

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Dayan-Viciedo-feasting-in-minors-Juan-Pierre-st?urn=fantasy-wp3973


"Dead last in baseball"- ouch.

GoSox2K3
06-17-2011, 11:06 AM
Pretty much sums it up:

http://sports.yahoo.com/fantasy/blog/roto_arcade/post/Dayan-Viciedo-feasting-in-minors-Juan-Pierre-st?urn=fantasy-wp3973

Ugh, doesn't this guy realize that since the Sox have other problems with their offense that we should not criticize Juan Pierre at all or even consider replacing him with someone who is tearing it up in the minors.

This reporter only wants to make Juan Pierre a scapegoat, that is all there is to it. Welcome to the Juan Pierre witch hunt! HATERS GOTTA HATE!

kittle42
06-17-2011, 11:11 AM
Given the personnel on the roster, I would platoon Lillibridge and Pierre through the All Star Break, but not necessarily on a lefty/righty platoon. Rather, I think I would alternate them each day. That will give each player an opportunity to earn the job. Ideally one of them seizes the LF/leadoff job and we're good. But if both fail, there's still time to promote Vicideo, or trade Viciedo for a decent outfielder who can hit, run, and play the field.

I agree with this pretty much. I'd still do it based on matchups, but with the roster as is, platoon for now and, if this team ever does anything better than mediocre, upgrade.

JermaineDye05
06-17-2011, 11:16 AM
I agree with this pretty much. I'd still do it based on matchups, but with the roster as is, platoon for now and, if this team ever does anything better than mediocre, upgrade.

They've been doing that for over two months now. It's time to upgrade.

kittle42
06-17-2011, 11:18 AM
As we saw with Pods, some fans who don't like slap hitters are all too willing to throw in the first shovelful of dirt on their careers.

Is it much easier for you to make your argument when you just pigeonhole the various (and there are various) groups of posters who disagree with you about Juan Pierre?

I like slap hitters who are fast, actually get on base, and can play defense. Homers aren't as meaningful without the runners on base before them. Just like I like power hitters who can hit homers, drive in runs, and at least be adequate in the field.

A good baseball player is a good baseball player. Juan Pierre isn't good enough anymore to justify playing him everyday.

kittle42
06-17-2011, 11:20 AM
Ugh, doesn't this guy realize that since the Sox have other problems with their offense that we should not criticize Juan Pierre at all or even consider replacing him with someone who is tearing it up in the minors.

This reporter only wants to make Juan Pierre a scapegoat, that is all there is to it. Welcome to the Juan Pierre witch hunt! HATERS GOTTA HATE!

A perfect summation of "The Pierre Defense."

tstrike2000
06-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Pierre can't run, can't bunt, can't throw, and can barely field, so why's he on the team? Time to do something else instead of constantly flip-flopping the crap in the lineup everyday. If you're not going to do something about Rios or Dunn, then do something with Pierre.

MrT27
06-17-2011, 11:32 AM
I voted for platoon right now. Lillibridge deserves more regular playing time but then again on the other hand I think Pierre has earned a little more time to straighten things out.

KMcMahon817
06-17-2011, 12:38 PM
I'm not one of them.

I think he can still hit- I just don't think he's in a baserunning "slump"- over May and June- he's 5/7 in stolen bases- an overall pace of 20 stolen bases over a full season- he's clearly had to be more selective vs. his 50% failure rate in April.

Last year- he was 20/25 in May/June- that's a pretty big drop off- along with being down 65% this year vs. where he was on the same date a year ago. Is Juan Pierre really an everyday major league outfielder if he can only steal 20-25 bases a year? Do you really think it's just a "slump"? If so- it's now a 2.5 month slump.

Do you really think someone will sign him for 2012 to be a starting OF? If not as a starter- do you think he could be a good use of a roster spot off the bench when he can only play one position?

He seems like a great guy- it will be heartbreaking to tell him it's over- but I just don't see any evidence that it's not.

This is pretty much my feeling on it. I really like Juan and I want him to do well. But, to be honest, it's time to explore other options. Platoon him and Lilli during interleague play, and if he hasn't figured it out by then, send him to the bench and call up The Tank.

I think he'll find a job next year....but I am not sure it will be as a starter. The fact that he can only "play" LF could really hurt him, though. However, I do think he serves a purpose on this squad, whether he starts or not.

JB98
06-17-2011, 01:16 PM
This is pretty much my feeling on it. I really like Juan and I want him to do well. But, to be honest, it's time to explore other options. Platoon him and Lilli during interleague play, and if he hasn't figured it out by then, send him to the bench and call up The Tank.

I think he'll find a job next year....but I am not sure it will be as a starter. The fact that he can only "play" LF could really hurt him, though. However, I do think he serves a purpose on this squad, whether he starts or not.

The problem is our manager will never be able to admit to himself that Pierre is no longer the player he was in 2003, or even in 2010. Ozzie will NEVER adjust and say, "OK, Juan isn't an everyday player anymore." He'll just continue to trot him out there every game, batting first and playing LF, until the season ends. It's maddening to me.

doublem23
06-17-2011, 01:26 PM
The problem is our manager will never be able to admit to himself that Pierre is no longer the player he was in 2003, or even in 2010. Ozzie will NEVER adjust and say, "OK, Juan isn't an everyday player anymore." He'll just continue to trot him out there every game, batting first and playing LF, until the season ends. It's maddening to me.

It honestly doesn't make any sense, considering how quick he is to move around EVERY OTHER GUY on this team. Beckham was dropped in the order when he struggled. Rios and Dunn have been benched for a few games at a time. Humber has remained in the starting rotation even when the Sox had 5 other capable SP. And yet, Pierre is above it all.

kittle42
06-17-2011, 01:44 PM
It honestly doesn't make any sense, considering how quick he is to move around EVERY OTHER GUY on this team. Beckham was dropped in the order when he struggled. Rios and Dunn have been benched for a few games at a time. Humber has remained in the starting rotation even when the Sox had 5 other capable SP. And yet, Pierre is above it all.

It's obviously all the fans' fault. You see, Ozzie comes on WSI and sees that Sox fans are using Juan as the scapegoat. Thus, he treats all players based on their performance EXCEPT Pierre, who gets to play every day and lead off.

It makes perfect sense!

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2011, 02:12 PM
It's obviously all the fans' fault. You see, Ozzie comes on WSI and sees that Sox fans are using Juan as the scapegoat. Thus, he treats all players based on their performance EXCEPT Pierre, who gets to play every day and lead off.

It makes perfect sense!

We fans need to stop pissing on the statue of Juan Pierre.

PorkChopExpress
06-17-2011, 02:17 PM
We fans need to stop pissing on the statue of Juan Pierre.

That's not a statue. That's actually Juan Pierre. He's just that slow now.

JoeyCora28
06-17-2011, 03:59 PM
That's not a statue. That's actually Juan Pierre. He's just that slow now.

Well done! :D:

forrestg
06-17-2011, 04:00 PM
keep viciedo at AAA charlotte and put him behind the plate. Ill bet he can hit better than Aj and actually throw out runners.

Hitmen77
06-17-2011, 09:30 PM
Ozzie says Pierre is staying at the top of the lineup:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110617&content_id=20623934&notebook_id=20641494&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

"If people don't like Juan, well, that's too bad. As long as he's here, I have to play him."

Daver
06-17-2011, 09:37 PM
keep viciedo at AAA charlotte and put him behind the plate. Ill bet he can hit better than Aj and actually throw out runners.

Makes more sense than letting him wander around in the outfield at Comiskey.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2011, 09:43 PM
Ozzie says Pierre is staying at the top of the lineup:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110617&content_id=20623934&notebook_id=20641494&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

"If people don't like Juan, well, that's too bad. As long as he's here, I have to play him."

And as long as he sucks, we don't have to like him.

A. Cavatica
06-17-2011, 09:47 PM
And as long as he sucks, we don't have to like him.

I should clarify that I'm talking about Ozzie.

Hitmen77
06-17-2011, 09:51 PM
Makes more sense than letting him wander around in the outfield at Comiskey.

How does Viciedo's defense compare to Pierre's in LF?

balke
06-17-2011, 09:58 PM
Makes more sense than letting him wander around in the outfield at Comiskey.

Well... yeah that would make no sense.

How about letting him play LF at U.S. Cellular Field?

I think the real answer is you use the Viciedo press to trade for something nice. There's starting pitching to trade, Viciedo, a young 2Bman, a young 3Bman, and heck even Santos or Thornton.

Find a building block. Shed some salary. Kill this lack of chemistry and score your starters some runs while playing defense. My vote is to try for a good 3Bman. Morel is good enough for a team that can actually score runs. This is not one of those teams.

Frater Perdurabo
06-17-2011, 10:04 PM
How about Lillibridge in CF and Teahen in LF?

Daver
06-17-2011, 10:23 PM
Well... yeah that would make no sense.

How about letting him play LF at U.S. Cellular Field?

I think the real answer is you use the Viciedo press to trade for something nice. There's starting pitching to trade, Viciedo, a young 2Bman, a young 3Bman, and heck even Santos or Thornton.

Find a building block. Shed some salary. Kill this lack of chemistry and score your starters some runs while playing defense. My vote is to try for a good 3Bman. Morel is good enough for a team that can actually score runs. This is not one of those teams.

There is a reason Dayan is playing outfield in Charlotte as opposed to learning to play outfield in Birmingham, it helps hide the fact that he really is a one tool player.

Mohoney
06-18-2011, 08:23 AM
Ozzie says Pierre is staying at the top of the lineup:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110617&content_id=20623934&notebook_id=20641494&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

"If people don't like Juan, well, that's too bad. As long as he's here, I have to play him."

I would have liked to keep Pierre as a bench player, but this pretty much seals the deal that Kenny needs to get him off the roster.

Sox
06-18-2011, 08:37 AM
Ozzie says Pierre is staying at the top of the lineup:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110617&content_id=20623934&notebook_id=20641494&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

"If people don't like Juan, well, that's too bad. As long as he's here, I have to play him."


Well Ozzie as long as Lillibridge is here you have to play him too or any other Sox player on the roster. Worst quote of the year.

TomBradley72
06-18-2011, 08:48 AM
We're exactly 1 game out of last place in the loss column- we have only one move we can make- there are multiple scouting reports that indicate Viciedo is a decent or better outfielder- it's ridiculous that they are not making this move- it should be made in time for the Cubs series.

One game out of LAST place with a $130M payroll- Pierre is not going to recover from his "slump" until someone finds a cure for the aging process.

russ99
06-18-2011, 10:47 AM
There is a reason Dayan is playing outfield in Charlotte as opposed to learning to play outfield in Birmingham, it helps hide the fact that he really is a one tool player.

I'd suspect we'd see similar play to another former Sox player who converted 1B/3B to LF, Carlos Lee.

Viciedo's arm is slightly above average, but his range stinks. You know those balls down the line in left that Pierre gets to - those will end up doubles with Viciedo in LF.

The big question is if his bat can make up for it. Especially against tough AL pitchers where he looked exposed last season.

Lip Man 1
06-18-2011, 11:05 AM
Ozzie knows best...remember he makes out the ****ing lineup!

:D:

Lip

JermaineDye05
06-18-2011, 11:14 AM
Ozzie says Pierre is staying at the top of the lineup:

http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110617&content_id=20623934&notebook_id=20641494&vkey=notebook_cws&c_id=cws

"If people don't like Juan, well, that's too bad. As long as he's here, I have to play him."

Well, now Ozzie's making it sound like he has no choice.

Release him, Kenny.

We need the Tank.

Foulke You
06-18-2011, 03:46 PM
Well, now Ozzie's making it sound like he has no choice.

Release him, Kenny.

We need the Tank.
I think he is making it sound like he has to play him because he loves the guy and loves that style of play. The only way Pierre comes out of that lineup every day is if he is traded, released, or hurt.

JermaineDye05
06-19-2011, 02:22 PM
Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/6041280-574/adam-dunn-will-sub-for-carlos-quentin-in-right-for-white-sox.html)

Ozzie is a loon.

Halfway through the article you'll read that Ozzie's reasons for playing Pierre could be out of loyalty.

Sox
06-19-2011, 03:37 PM
So the Sox will take loyalty over run production. Great... what a winning philosophy.

A. Cavatica
06-19-2011, 04:06 PM
So the Sox will take loyalty over run production. Great... what a winning philosophy.

This is no surprise. Otherwise Ozzie and Walker would've been fired years ago.

russ99
06-19-2011, 04:49 PM
So the Sox will take loyalty over run production. Great... what a winning philosophy.

It's a great philosophy to throw your players away when they're in a funk.

Ozzie's doing what he's done with many players over the years, give them a chance to work out of it. Why is this any different, other than that some of you have deemed Pierre useless?

TomBradley72
06-19-2011, 05:31 PM
It's a great philosophy to throw your players away when they're in a funk.

Ozzie's doing what he's done with many players over the years, give them a chance to work out of it. Why is this any different, other than that some of you have deemed Pierre useless?

I think it's different because we're below .500 and very close to last place approaching the all star break. T

The only potential move to be made due to our lack of prospects to be called up or used as trade bait- is to replace Pierre with Viciedo. It's exacerbated by the poor hitting of Dunn and Rios- which shortens the patience for Juan to deliver at the level he did a year ago.

His contract expires in a few months- so of all the players you could replace- he would result in the least financial impact.

Juan has a nice game today-we'll see if he can string some together.

BainesHOF
06-20-2011, 04:10 PM
Ozzie's doing what he's done with many players over the years, give them a chance to work out of it. Why is this any different, other than that some of you have deemed Pierre useless?

You think Pierre is going to regain his speed? LOL.

soltrain21
06-20-2011, 04:16 PM
It's a great philosophy to throw your players away when they're in a funk.

Ozzie's doing what he's done with many players over the years, give them a chance to work out of it. Why is this any different, other than that some of you have deemed Pierre useless?

He is losing his speed. He IS useless.

SephClone89
06-20-2011, 04:19 PM
While I was a supporter of Pierre last year, and Dunn now, and Ozzie before this year. So originally, I could sympathize with Russ. But now I'm starting to think that this has to be some sort of act.

khan
06-20-2011, 06:39 PM
I think the real answer is you use the Viciedo press to trade for something nice. There's starting pitching to trade, Viciedo, a young 2Bman, a young 3Bman, and heck even Santos or Thornton.

Find a building block. Shed some salary. Kill this lack of chemistry and score your starters some runs while playing defense. My vote is to try for a good 3Bman. Morel is good enough for a team that can actually score runs. This is not one of those teams.

No offense, and I'm really not attacking you, but:

Holy **** is that a bad idea. Do you REALLY want to give the high school graduate/college attendee before the existence of Prop 48/favorite of JR/perpetrator of the Swisher and Jackson deals another chance to **** this team up?

I'm afraid to report to you that I truly believe that KW has gone stupid in recent years, and is now incapable of fashioning a trade that is of any use to his employer. [Danks/Masset for McCarthy was what, 5 years ago? Floyd was 4 years ago, yes?]


That said, I actually understand why Viciedo isn't here right now; I believe that when he comes up, he's here to stay. Perhaps they are trying to fine tune some aspect of his game. [Unfortunately, what is more likely is that the stupid GM is probably planning to give him away to his buddy down in AZ.]

At the same time, the illiterate moron who is the field manager needs a "speedy leadoff type" like a junkie needs smack. Perhaps De Aza [he of the .392 OBP in June] can be said fix for the junkie mope-manager?

[EDIT] In any case, I agree that Pierre shouldn't be playing as much as he has been playing.

Tragg
06-20-2011, 06:56 PM
I'm afraid to report to you that I truly believe that KW has gone stupid in recent years, and is now incapable of fashioning a trade that is of any use to his employer. [Danks/Masset for McCarthy was what, 5 years ago? Floyd was 4 years ago, yes?]



Your language is harsh, but that's the problem with rebuilding right now: the rebuilder hasn't made a productive trade in years. Some were completely ludicrous on paper (Swisher 2, Hudson, arguably Swisher 1) and some just didn't help any (Javy 2, Peavy).
ONe could also argue that given a manager with a fetish for a speedy slapper to lead-off, Williams should have gotten him a good one of those (to the extent those are good).
But I agree with Balke....we have tradeable commodities, including Viciedo, a starting pitcher, one of several bullpen pitchers (if we are out of it), etc.

soltrain21
06-20-2011, 06:58 PM
No offense, and I'm really not attacking you, but:

Holy **** is that a bad idea. Do you REALLY want to give the high school graduate/college attendee before the existence of Prop 48/favorite of JR/perpetrator of the Swisher and Jackson deals another chance to **** this team up?

I'm afraid to report to you that I truly believe that KW has gone stupid in recent years, and is now incapable of fashioning a trade that is of any use to his employer. [Danks/Masset for McCarthy was what, 5 years ago? Floyd was 4 years ago, yes?]


That said, I actually understand why Viciedo isn't here right now; I believe that when he comes up, he's here to stay. Perhaps they are trying to fine tune some aspect of his game. [Unfortunately, what is more likely is that the stupid GM is probably planning to give him away to his buddy down in AZ.]

At the same time, the illiterate moron who is the field manager needs a "speedy leadoff type" like a junkie needs smack. Perhaps De Aza [he of the .392 OBP in June] can be said fix for the junkie mope-manager?

[EDIT] In any case, I agree that Pierre shouldn't be playing as much as he has been playing.

I agree with your points, and I think a lot of others would as well if you didn't use such hateful language.

Daver
06-20-2011, 08:59 PM
I agree with your points, and I think a lot of others would as well if you didn't use such hateful language.

It's how some people that are not well versed enough to come across intelligently make up for the failing, and I'm sure I'm not alone in reading little of posts that are structured thus.

TheOldRoman
06-20-2011, 09:39 PM
It's how some people that are not well versed enough to come across intelligently make up for the failing, and I'm sure I'm not alone in reading little of posts that are structured thus.Not only that, but I detect maybe a teensy little bit of racism in his attacks.

khan
06-21-2011, 10:02 AM
Not only that, but I detect maybe a teensy little bit of racism in his attacks.

Exactly where do you detect this?

As a minority myself, I'm curious to know how you can detect such a thing. Having been called the N-word to my face, I'm fascinated to hear your thoughts on this.

We all know that you're a KW apologist, and that's cool. KW has done his fair share of good deals in the past, but he hasn't come up with a helpful trade in awhile. And to insinuate that someone is a racist, just to use as cover for your hero, is a little reckless on your part.

dickallen15
06-21-2011, 10:11 AM
It's a great philosophy to throw your players away when they're in a funk.

Ozzie's doing what he's done with many players over the years, give them a chance to work out of it. Why is this any different, other than that some of you have deemed Pierre useless?

Yeah, the Sox should have stuck with Shingo in 2005.

russ99
06-21-2011, 10:18 AM
Yeah, the Sox should have stuck with Shingo in 2005.

Did Shingo have a 10 year track record of success? Shingo had a good first year, then hitters figured him out.

A better parallel - Dye in 2007. Why should Jermaine have gotten a chance to get out of his funk and Pierre not?
I don't remember people complaining about releasing Dye every day back then...

While I was a supporter of Pierre last year, and Dunn now, and Ozzie before this year. So originally, I could sympathize with Russ. But now I'm starting to think that this has to be some sort of act.

Not an act - I love playing devil's advocate, and dislike when a large group of people follow a mob mentality and kneejerk reactions to fairly complex issues and not think things out.

I also think this team is best when we have a good table-setter and a mix of sluggers and athletes over a bunch of home run hitters. Ozzie was a coach in the NL, with Torborg as his mentor. If you dislike it or not, that's the kind of baseball he's going to manage. No surprises here.

khan
06-21-2011, 10:25 AM
Your language is harsh, but that's the problem with rebuilding right now: the rebuilder hasn't made a productive trade in years. Some were completely ludicrous on paper (Swisher 2, Hudson, arguably Swisher 1) and some just didn't help any (Javy 2, Peavy).

But I agree with Balke....we have tradeable commodities, including Viciedo, a starting pitcher, one of several bullpen pitchers (if we are out of it), etc.
If/when it is time to sell, I'd have to think that Viciedo would stay, unless the GM can find value. I agree that there are sellable pieces, but you'd have to think that Viciedo would be part of the future in a rebuild.

I merely believe that the GM has either gotten bad players [Jackson/Pena/Teahen], inconsistent players [Jackson/Swisher], horrific value [Jackson], lifetime fetishes [Griffey], or merely wanted to try to show the world that he's "smart" [Peavy] in recent years. Thus, I do not trust him to make intelligent decisions in a rebuild.

I agree with your points, and I think a lot of others would as well if you didn't use such hateful language.
Well, we're not writing for "Shakespeare In The Park" here. I apologize if my language might be seen as "hateful."

I do notice that few [if any] have any disagreement with my ideas. Even the guy who was silly enough to use "racism" as a defense for his buddy didn't outright disagree with me.

But that's what you do when you don't have any ideas: Attack the other guy, even if your attack is reckless and baseless.

khan
06-21-2011, 10:34 AM
Did Shingo have a 10 year track record of success? Shingo had a good first year, then hitters figured him out.

A better parallel - Dye in 2007. Why should Jermaine have gotten a chance to get out of his funk and Pierre not?
I don't remember people complaining about releasing Dye every day back then...

I don't see it as a parallel at all. One player [Pierre] relies ENTIRELY on his speed, while the other does not. Different types of players age on a differing schedule. As such, Dye declined on a different timetable than Pierre is declining.


Age robs us all of whatever athletic ability we possess. Like it or not, at some point, Pierre's home-to-first time was going to go up. At some point, his 1st-to-2nd time was going to go up. At some point, his jump out of first and his read of the pitcher was going to worsen. It happens to every player and every living human being, whether we like it or not.

You and I and OG and KW know this, and they should have taken measures. That is, for the GM to build a roster/organization with this eventuality in mind, and for the field manager to be prepared for this eventuality as well.

It would appear that both the GM and field manager have not taken the appropriate measures in this case. Again, I do not blame Pierre for this, as his decline is not his fault. But the powers that be HAVE TO know this, and do something about it.

sullythered
06-21-2011, 10:36 AM
Well, we're not writing for "Shakespeare In The Park" here. I apologize if my language might be seen as "hateful."

I do notice that few [if any] have any disagreement with my ideas. Even the guy who was silly enough to use "racism" as a defense for his buddy didn't outright disagree with me.

But that's what you do when you don't have any ideas: Attack the other guy, even if your attack is reckless and baseless.

Dude, Shakepeare was SUPER hateful.

khan
06-21-2011, 10:40 AM
Dude, Shakepeare was SUPER hateful.

:redface: Yeah, you're right. And I thought about that after I posted.

But, I confess that I lost my cool when Roman had the nerve to accuse someone of being "racist," merely because that person doesn't kiss KW's ass as he does.

I wonder if he'll have the class to pubicly apologize or not. I'm guessing that he won't.

[I'll let it go now.]

kufram
06-21-2011, 10:45 AM
If/when it is time to sell, I'd have to think that Viciedo would stay, unless the GM can find value. I agree that there are sellable pieces, but you'd have to think that Viciedo would be part of the future in a rebuild.

I merely believe that the GM has either gotten bad players [Jackson/Pena/Teahen], inconsistent players [Jackson/Swisher], horrific value [Jackson], lifetime fetishes [Griffey], or merely wanted to try to show the world that he's "smart" [Peavy] in recent years. Thus, I do not trust him to make intelligent decisions in a rebuild.


Well, we're not writing for "Shakespeare In The Park" here. I apologize if my language might be seen as "hateful."

I do notice that few [if any] have any disagreement with my ideas. Even the guy who was silly enough to use "racism" as a defense for his buddy didn't outright disagree with me.

But that's what you do when you don't have any ideas: Attack the other guy, even if your attack is reckless and baseless.

When "attack" is your default mode you have to be ready for counterattacks. I often don't totally disagree with the ideas you present but the apparent inability on your part to avoid abusive remarks and the over use of the non-word "craptacular" just get in the way. I don't read your kind of prose. You could try a measured and more adult approach and see if it gets a better result?

DirtySox
06-21-2011, 10:52 AM
They are playing the service time game with Dayan right now. Give it two more weeks.

khan
06-21-2011, 10:58 AM
When "attack" is your default mode you have to be ready for counterattacks.
I don't disagree with you, but I have praised KW for doing things that appeared to be [uncharacteristically] intelligent on his part.

I loved the Humber acquisition, and I liked the Dunn acquisition, for example. I loved the re-signing of PK.

"Attack" as a default? Hardly. When KW does something stupid, I say so. But I do [and I have] praised him when it was appropriate to do so. And I apply the same standard for OG or anyone else in the organization.

I refuse to be a club apologist, because I'm neither on the payroll of the club, nor on the payroll of anything else related to the club. I'm a fan, which entitles me to be fair but tough on my favorite team.

But slinging an accusation without basis? Yep, that's exactly what Roman did.


I often don't totally disagree with the ideas you present but the apparent inability on your part to avoid abusive remarks and the over use of the non-word "craptacular" just get in the way. I don't read your kind of prose. You could try a measured and more adult approach and see if it gets a better result?
So you're saying that it's OK to accuse someone else without basis, and that we should be prepared for it?

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I can, however, be kinder and gentler to people who suck at their jobs if you like, or you can ignore me as well. We can try both approaches.

russ99
06-21-2011, 11:09 AM
I don't see it as a parallel at all. One player [Pierre] relies ENTIRELY on his speed, while the other does not. Different types of players age on a differing schedule. As such, Dye declined on a different timetable than Pierre is declining.

Age robs us all of whatever athletic ability we possess. Like it or not, at some point, Pierre's home-to-first time was going to go up. At some point, his 1st-to-2nd time was going to go up. At some point, his jump out of first and his read of the pitcher was going to worsen. It happens to every player and every living human being, whether we like it or not.

You and I and OG and KW know this, and they should have taken measures. That is, for the GM to build a roster/organization with this eventuality in mind, and for the field manager to be prepared for this eventuality as well.

It would appear that both the GM and field manager have not taken the appropriate measures in this case. Again, I do not blame Pierre for this, as his decline is not his fault. But the powers that be HAVE TO know this, and do something about it.

While it's very well put on how player's decline at different rates, I disagree that Pierre's game is entirely based on speed (part is based on his ability to make contact, and how he rarely strikes out; reflected in his AVG and OBP numbers) and specifically that his speed is just gone.

Personally, I don't see that decline. He's not as fast out of the box, and getting poor jumps on steals, but is just as fast to second base. That is not a physical decline, that's lack of execution of things in muscle memory, that need to be repeated in a precise manner to be replicated.

Similarly, if he gets back that execution (which IMO is a mental thing due to his poor numbers this year, that all players seem to go through - case in point: Dunn) then he still can be successful.

Look at Podsednik. He had a physical reason as to why he lost speed, and when that issue was gone, he got his speed back. Yet so many thought in 2007/08 that since he was a certain age and since he was a speed guy/slap hitter, he was finished.

TheOldRoman
06-21-2011, 11:16 AM
Exactly where do you detect this?

As a minority myself, I'm curious to know how you can detect such a thing. Having been called the N-word to my face, I'm fascinated to hear your thoughts on this.

We all know that you're a KW apologist, and that's cool. KW has done his fair share of good deals in the past, but he hasn't come up with a helpful trade in awhile. And to insinuate that someone is a racist, just to use as cover for your hero, is a little reckless on your part.First off, you can keep constructing strawmen, claiming I have never said anything against KW when I have numerous times, railing against imaginary arguments, KW is my hero, etc. I just found something a little peculiar about your attacks. I mean, KW was a baseball player who left college early to play professionally. It happens a log. Maybe if he got a degree in Physical Education like Terry Ryan and Dayton Moore or history like 2005 GM of the year Mark Shapiro, he would be a better baseball mind. Frank Wren, John Schuerholz, Doug Melvin and countless other GMs in the past did not graduate from college. Graduating from college is not a requirement to be a GM. Ozzie came to the US from a third world country when he was 16. No, he didn't graduate HS, but he played professionally for many years and started coaching upon retirement. Judging one's baseball acumen by their education is a bad thing to begin with. However, drawing from that to conclude that they are not only baseball dumb, but also simpletons raised a few red flags. If that isn't where you are coming from, I'm sorry about that. That's the last I will say on the topic.

BigKlu59
06-21-2011, 11:17 AM
:cool: One for Carlos May or Ralph Garr..... Oh hell, anybody that can put the ball into the outfield , not be a defensive liability and get on base. Funny how this guy has hit into so many DP's this year swinging from the left side with "speed"... :scratch:



BK59

khan
06-21-2011, 11:24 AM
While it's very well put on how player's decline at different rates, I disagree that Pierre's game is entirely based on speed (part is based on his ability to make contact, and how he rarely strikes out; reflected in his AVG and OBP numbers) and specifically that his speed is just gone.
I agree. His speed does look gone to me. Even if you posit that his speed isn't his "only" asset, it's clearly far and away his #1 asset, with everything else well behind it.

Beyond that, his BA and OBP are well below career norms, which, coupled with his age, is a clear indication of a player in decline. Given his role for this team, he cannot be used as much as he is right now for this team to succeed, IMO.

Personally, I don't see that decline. He's not as fast out of the box, and getting poor jumps on steals, but is just as fast to second base. That is not a physical decline, that's lack of execution of things in muscle memory, that need to be repeated in a precise manner to be replicated.

Similarly, if he gets back that execution (which IMO is a mental thing due to his poor numbers this year that all players seem to go through) then he still can be successful.
Well, the ONE way a manager can refocus a player's mind is to have that player ride pine until he can "execute."

However, I could be wrong, but I see Pierre as a hard-working type who is professional. He doesn't look like he's let his body go. He looks fit to me, and I see nothing that would indicate that he's not executing. I merely see a guy that isn't as good as he once was.


Look at Podsednik. He had a physical reason as to why he lost speed, and when that issue was gone, he got his speed back. Yet so many thought in 2007/08 that since he was a certain age, he was finished.
Russ, I really have to rule this out with Pierre. Hermie and company are pretty good about keeping a player healthy over the course of a season. Perhaps they can check his eyes to see if his vision isn't the same as he was. But, I don't think he has a physical issue preventing him from performing up to his career standards.


I'm in the camp that the field manager needs to learn how to read splits, and properly deploy his assets to the best effect. At the same time, the field manager needs to learn to set aside his personal affinity for a player, and recognize when that player is not as good as he used to be.

I'm not saying that Pierre can't be used at all, just that his role should be diminished/shared with others that are more physically capable at this point. I just don't know if OG has the ability to recognize this, and to act appropriately on it.

kufram
06-21-2011, 11:26 AM
I don't disagree with you, but I have praised KW for doing things that appeared to be [uncharacteristically] intelligent on his part.

I loved the Humber acquisition, and I liked the Dunn acquisition, for example. I loved the re-signing of PK.

"Attack" as a default? Hardly. When KW does something stupid, I say so. But I do [and I have] praised him when it was appropriate to do so. And I apply the same standard for OG or anyone else in the organization.

I refuse to be a club apologist, because I'm neither on the payroll of the club, nor on the payroll of anything else related to the club. I'm a fan, which entitles me to be fair but tough on my favorite team.

But slinging an accusation without basis? Yep, that's exactly what Roman did.



So you're saying that it's OK to accuse someone else without basis, and that we should be prepared for it?

Sorry, I don't see it that way. I can, however, be kinder and gentler to people who suck at their jobs if you like, or you can ignore me as well. We can try both approaches.

Well, I didn't say the first sentence which I've put in bold. I was just offering a bit of friendly advice that your points would carry more weight if made with a little less spittle.

As far as the second sentence in bold... yeah, that works for me. It isn't a question of being kinder or gentler... your approach sometimes reflects more on you than it does on your target.

khan
06-21-2011, 11:38 AM
First off, you can keep constructing strawmen, claiming I have never said anything against KW when I have numerous times, railing against imaginary arguments, KW is my hero, etc. I just found something a little peculiar about your attacks. I mean, KW was a baseball player who left college early to play professionally. It happens a log. Maybe if he got a degree in Physical Education like Terry Ryan and Dayton Moore or history like 2005 GM of the year Mark Shapiro, he would be a better baseball mind. Frank Wren, John Schuerholz, Doug Melvin and countless other GMs in the past did not graduate from college. Graduating from college is not a requirement to be a GM. Ozzie came to the US from a third world country when he was 16. No, he didn't graduate HS, but he played professionally for many years and started coaching upon retirement. Judging one's baseball acumen by their education is a bad thing to begin with. However, drawing from that to conclude that they are not only baseball dumb, but also simpletons raised a few red flags. If that isn't where you are coming from, I'm sorry about that. That's the last I will say on the topic.

First, thanks for burying your so-called apology to your reckless and baseless attack well at the bottom. Your ability to backtrack is breathtaking.

Secondly, you're the guy who keeps "IN KENNY WE TRUST" as his sig, even after piles of dumb moves on his part in more recent years. So yes, until proven otherwise, you ARE a KW apologist.

Thirdly, suggesting "racism," especially to a person like me, and especially WITHOUT any evidence thereof is the epitome of a strawman. [Once a bell is rang, it can't be un-rang, right?]

Lastly, although there is no "requirement" to be educated to be a GM or field manager, look around MLB: It's the smart, educated guys with MBAs and JDs that are getting the jobs nowadays. No longer is it the rubes of yesteryear that got pantsed in negotiation that become GMs.

And for every grammar school graduate like OG that manages, little wonder that one of the best field managers in the game has a JD [LaRussa]. Like it or not, smart always beats dumb. Educated beats illiterate, in every business. Information beats ignorance.

TheOldRoman
06-21-2011, 12:08 PM
Secondly, you're the guy who keeps "IN KENNY WE TRUST" as his sig, even after piles of dumb moves on his part in more recent years. So yes, until proven otherwise, you ARE a KW apologist.I explained it in the past, but here goes again. This goes back to before you were posting here. Actually, you were posting here under a different name. Anyway, there was much consternation that the Sox failed to make a big trade at the deadline in 2005. The team "desperately" needed a CF, a starting pitcher, a DH, a closer, and probably a few more players. Admittedly, I was for the Sox trading Contreras for AJ Burnett, which would have meant we'd now be looking at 94 years without a championship. Anyway, while lots of posters were jumping off buildings and claiming Kenny blew the Sox one chance, I figured it was better to take a level-headed approach. Kenny was confident in the team, and based on the team he had put together to that point in the season I felt he deserved benefit of the doubt. I figured he knew what he was doing and threw my support behind him that day, on the trading deadline. I kept the sig up through the struggles of August and early September as the Sox struggled and others pointed fingers. It is more in rememberance of the 2005 season which, whether or not you like to admit it, happened specifically because of the moves he made. He put his ass on the line in trading Lee for Pods, a move which almost the entire baseball world mocked and claimed was against the book. If the Sox didn't win the division that year, he would have been gone (after 2006 at the latest). We got the championship in 2005 because of the moves Kenny made, and so I keep the sig up to honor that season and his moves which made it possible. It's also a nice little reminder that sometimes messageboarders don't know more than the general manager of a baseball team.

Again, I have been critical of Williams at times. I said at the end of last year that I would prefer to start over with a new GM and manager. I have stated before that I didn't like certain moves he made. So me calling you out on your poo-flinging doesn't make me an apologist.

dickallen15
06-21-2011, 03:32 PM
Did Shingo have a 10 year track record of success? Shingo had a good first year, then hitters figured him out.

A better parallel - Dye in 2007. Why should Jermaine have gotten a chance to get out of his funk and Pierre not?
I don't remember people complaining about releasing Dye every day back then...



Not an act - I love playing devil's advocate, and dislike when a large group of people follow a mob mentality and kneejerk reactions to fairly complex issues and not think things out.

I also think this team is best when we have a good table-setter and a mix of sluggers and athletes over a bunch of home run hitters. Ozzie was a coach in the NL, with Torborg as his mentor. If you dislike it or not, that's the kind of baseball he's going to manage. No surprises here.
Shingo was in a funk, and he was disposed of. They didn't wait to see if he could regain the magic of the season before, and guess what? They won the WS. They have given Pierre half a season to get his act together, and it isn't working. They have a viable replacement. Its time to make a change. There is absolutely no chance Juan Pierre is a White Sox next season. Viciedo is the future and the future is now.

Daver
06-21-2011, 04:06 PM
Viciedo is the future and the future is now.


The future is pretty bleak when your best bet is to take a chance on a player that has basically one tool, and that one is untested at the MLB level.

dickallen15
06-21-2011, 04:11 PM
The future is pretty bleak when your best bet is to take a chance on a player that has basically one tool, and that one is untested at the MLB level.

He's not great in the OF, but he's an upgrade over Pierre. He's a little better than Quentin. He can catch a flyball, something Pierre has had problems with and he has a very good arm.

He hit pretty well in limited action last year and he's raked in the minors this year. Pierre is doing nothing. Is Viciedo supposed to stay in Charlotte forever? Another 50 games isn't going to make a huge difference with his glove and the Sox need his bat. Untested is fine when tested isn't working.

hawkjt
06-21-2011, 04:14 PM
I support leaving Viciedo down in the minors for another 12 days,then bringing him up...thus saving that extra free agent year. I would rather wait 12 days now,to keep him an extra year,if he is all that.

FielderJones
06-21-2011, 04:17 PM
The future is pretty bleak when your best bet is to take a chance on a player that has basically one tool, and that one is untested at the MLB level.

Not completely untested. Tested with a small sample size.

TomBradley72
06-21-2011, 04:58 PM
The future is pretty bleak when your best bet is to take a chance on a player that has basically one tool, and that one is untested at the MLB level.

All the reports I've seen have him as a much better outfielder than your assessment- have you seen him play OF this year?

He lost weight in the offseason- spring training reports were very favorable on how he looked in right as are the reports I've read on how he's doing in Charlotte.

I'd say he's at least 3-4 tool player. Hit, Hit for Power, Field, Throw- but no real speed.

Pierre? Hit (maybe), speed (maybe, but seems to be declining).

Daver
06-21-2011, 04:59 PM
All the reports I've seen have him as a much better outfielder than your assessment- have you seen him play OF this year?



Yes.

TomBradley72
06-21-2011, 04:59 PM
The future is pretty bleak when your best bet is to take a chance on a player that has basically one tool, and that one is untested at the MLB level.

But you are right about the "bleak future"- after Viciedo it's a complete wasteland in the minor league system KW has overseen for 15+ years in different capacities.

Daver
06-21-2011, 07:43 PM
He's not great in the OF, but he's an upgrade over Pierre. He's a little better than Quentin.

You are watching different tape than I am, he's the second coming of Carlos Lee. TCQ is an average defensive fielder, some scouts would rank Dayan as passable, which is a compliment from what I have seen.

SI1020
06-21-2011, 08:50 PM
All the reports I've seen have him as a much better outfielder than your assessment- have you seen him play OF this year?

He lost weight in the offseason- spring training reports were very favorable on how he looked in right as are the reports I've read on how he's doing in Charlotte.

I'd say he's at least 3-4 tool player. Hit, Hit for Power, Field, Throw- but no real speed.

Pierre? Hit (maybe), speed (maybe, but seems to be declining). I would definitely remove field from that list. So far he has not been passable at any position he's played. The guy could definitely be a legitimate MLB hitter, but I wouldn't go any further than that.

doublem23
06-21-2011, 09:38 PM
Paul Konerko's last 5 games

5 HR, 7 RBI

Nellie_Fox
06-22-2011, 12:08 AM
Lastly, although there is no "requirement" to be educated to be a GM or field manager, look around MLB: It's the smart, educated guys with MBAs and JDs that are getting the jobs nowadays. No longer is it the rubes of yesteryear that got pantsed in negotiation that become GMs.

And for every grammar school graduate like OG that manages, little wonder that one of the best field managers in the game has a JD [LaRussa]. Like it or not, smart always beats dumb. Educated beats illiterate, in every business. Information beats ignorance.Far be it from me to criticize education, but please explain to me how law school prepares you to be a baseball general manager or field manager? LaRussa is smart. He'd be smart without law school. Law school is not what made him a good manager.

Daver
06-22-2011, 12:24 AM
Far be it from me to criticize education, but please explain to me how law school prepares you to be a baseball general manager or field manager? LaRussa is smart. He'd be smart without law school. Law school is not what made him a good manager.

The stereotype that education makes one smart baffles me, the basic behind all education is instilled in the first few years of school, primary teachers do a wonderful thing, they instill the ability to learn, if you never learn to learn you will never achieve any amount of education.

But my opinion means nothing since I am one of the unwashed masses that does not have a piece of sheepskin that proves I'm smart.

kufram
06-22-2011, 07:32 AM
I'm all for education but there are plenty of top degree people responsible for really stupid decisions and actions that have caused entire societies to suffer. To subscribe to any formula that says one standard is best for all is unimaginative and quite narrow minded.

University degrees are an important measurement of commitment as much as intelligence and are not to be undersold, but they are by no means the only yardstick of a human being's intelligence or value. In baseball? Not the most important thing at all. Calling a manager in baseball illiterate just doesn't mean very much.

khan
06-22-2011, 10:25 AM
Far be it from me to criticize education, but please explain to me how law school prepares you to be a baseball general manager or field manager? LaRussa is smart. He'd be smart without law school. Law school is not what made him a good manager.

Firstly, thanks for not calling me a "racist," without any real reason to do so, other than your fandom of one person. I also thank you for not accusing me of posting under another name, also without basis. At the very least, you are actually "calling me out" on my opinion by offering your own view. I like it.


To the point of your post, I don't disagree that education doesn't make one "smart." But, it can help you read a scouting report. It can help you understand the numbers behind a player's tendencies, and then, take the appropriate measures. Having enough education can help you understand what other utility IF are being paid, and make the appropriate offer in negotiation.

Like it or not, OG quit school as a child, and may or may not have the ability to read and comprehend a scouting report, for example. He may not be able to do a 5 minute look around BP to see how other speedy, slap-hitting players age, as in the case of Mssr. Pierre. This is especially true, in that English is not his native tongue.

KW quit college before even finishing 1 year. Likewise, he may not have the training to understand that Teahen is not worth what he offered him, due to a lack of education.

Insofar as intellect goes, well, persisting in playing Pierre everyday isn't smart. Nor is trading the sun, the moon, and the stars to AZ for an expensive, inconsistent, and overrated Jackson. [Who probably should have been gotten for salary alone.] And there are many other examples of unintelligent choices made by these two.


So we agree that there may be issues of erudition with these two, but there also appear to be issues of intellect with these two. Both issues may be problems for this organization, unfortunately.

khan
06-22-2011, 10:33 AM
I'm all for education but there are plenty of top degree people responsible for really stupid decisions and actions that have caused entire societies to suffer. To subscribe to any formula that says one standard is best for all is unimaginative and quite narrow minded.

University degrees are an important measurement of commitment as much as intelligence and are not to be undersold, but they are by no means the only yardstick of a human being's intelligence or value. In baseball? Not the most important thing at all. Calling a manager in baseball illiterate just doesn't mean very much.

I also don't disagree with you. But again, OG supposedly "went" to elementary school in a then-3rd world country, but as a prodigy baseball player. It may also have been that he was "promoted" through school because he could hit, field, and throw better than the other kids, and not necessarily because he did the work in class. [Heck, it happens for prodigy athletes in THIS country, so how much moreso in late '60s/early '70s Venezuela?]


Without insulting him, I doubt that his elementary schooling was very good or very thorough. Moreover, it was in a language other than English. So, it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that he actually has little-to-no reading comprehension when he's given a scouting report.

In other words, he may very well be functionally illiterate in English.

Perhaps this is why he kept plugging in Jim Thome vs. lefties for all those years, or why Juan Pierre continues to get much more playing time than he deserves.

soltrain21
06-22-2011, 10:37 AM
Firstly, thanks for not calling me a "racist," without any real reason to do so, other than your fandom of one person. I also thank you for not accusing me of posting under another name, also without basis. At the very least, you are actually "calling me out" on my opinion by offering your own view. I like it.


To the point of your post, I don't disagree that education doesn't make one "smart." But, it can help you read a scouting report. It can help you understand the numbers behind a player's tendencies, and then, take the appropriate measures. Having enough education can help you understand what other utility IF are being paid, and make the appropriate offer in negotiation.

Like it or not, OG quit school as a child, and may or may not have the ability to read and comprehend a scouting report, for example. He may not be able to do a 5 minute look around BP to see how other speedy, slap-hitting players age, as in the case of Mssr. Pierre. This is especially true, in that English is not his native tongue.

KW quit college before even finishing 1 year. Likewise, he may not have the training to understand that Teahen is not worth what he offered him, due to a lack of education.

Insofar as intellect goes, well, persisting in playing Pierre everyday isn't smart. Nor is trading the sun, the moon, and the stars to AZ for an expensive, inconsistent, and overrated Jackson. [Who probably should have been gotten for salary alone.] And there are many other examples of unintelligent choices made by these two.


So we agree that there may be issues of erudition with these two, but there also appear to be issues of intellect with these two. Both issues may be problems for this organization, unfortunately.

Crazy that you are going on and on about the education of people, and this might be the dumbest thing I've ever read.

khan
06-22-2011, 10:40 AM
Crazy that you are going on and on about the education of people, and this might be the dumbest thing I've ever read.

Yeah, I couldn't believe it when Teahen got his contract before playing a single game for the SOX, either.

[EDIT] Unless, you think that it was a GOOD idea to sign Teahen, well then I'd have to disagree with you...

soltrain21
06-22-2011, 10:44 AM
Yeah, I couldn't believe it when Teahen got his contract before playing a single game for the SOX, either.

[EDIT] Unless, you think that it was a GOOD idea to sign Teahen, well then I'd have to disagree with you...

I'm talking about how you said he doesn't have the "training" to understand it. Theo Epstein has made some pretty dumb moves, hasn't he? Did Theo not have the training to know signing Julio Lugo wasn't the best idea?

This crusade you are fighting is a dumb one. I don't like KW and Ozzie either, but to bring education into the conversation is well, pretty ****ing stupid. If you can't tell KW is a pretty bright dude than maybe you are the one without training.

kufram
06-22-2011, 10:50 AM
I also don't disagree with you. But again, OG supposedly "went" to elementary school in a then-3rd world country, but as a prodigy baseball player. It may also have been that he was "promoted" through school because he could hit, field, and throw better than the other kids, and not necessarily because he did the work in class. [Heck, it happens for prodigy athletes in THIS country, so how much moreso in late '60s/early '70s Venezuela?]


Without insulting him, I doubt that his elementary schooling was very good or very thorough. Moreover, it was in a language other than English. So, it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that he actually has little-to-no reading comprehension when he's given a scouting report.

In other words, he may very well be functionally illiterate in English.

Perhaps this is why he kept plugging in Jim Thome vs. lefties for all those years, or why Juan Pierre continues to get much more playing time than he deserves.

You really should stop this while you're behind. The hole is just getting bigger.

TheOldRoman
06-22-2011, 10:54 AM
Far be it from me to criticize education, but please explain to me how law school prepares you to be a baseball general manager or field manager? LaRussa is smart. He'd be smart without law school. Law school is not what made him a good manager.Don't you understand?! If KW would have gotten a degree in art history he would better understand contract negotiations.

khan
06-22-2011, 10:55 AM
I'm talking about how you said he doesn't have the "training" to understand it. Theo Epstein has made some pretty dumb moves, hasn't he? Did Theo not have the training to know signing Julio Lugo wasn't the best idea?

I don't disagree that Theo has made some bad moves. But on the other hand, I would posit that he's made more good moves than KW has in recent years. I can't really comment on Lugo beyond the fact that he did win a WS with baahsten.

This crusade you are fighting is a dumb one. I don't like KW and Ozzie either, but to bring education into the conversation is well, pretty ****ing stupid. If you can't tell KW is a pretty bright dude than maybe you are the one without training.
Well, I have no reason to dislike "them," I dislike the dumb things they do over and over and over again. I actually happen to be a fan of both guys, but not a fan of their decisionmaking processes, nor of the stupid things they say in public.

And again, your opinion of KW being a "pretty bright dude" is just that: An opinion.

The reality is, however, that he did not attain as much in the classroom as others that hold his job. This, whether we like it or not, is no opinion.

Noneck
06-22-2011, 10:58 AM
Some of the points about ozwaldos education have some merit but he has coaches that can explain and read reports that oz may not be able to read and understand. I know Cora writes out the lineup card so I see no reason why his other coaches cant read and explain things to ozzie.

I totally disagree that Williams education is the reason some moves didn't work out. Not only do I believe that Williams is an intelligent guy even though he doesnt have an advanced education but he also has people on his staff that are educated and intelligent, eg: Hahn. Williams has made some bad moves and some good ones, it happens to all GM's and has nothing to do with his education.

khan
06-22-2011, 10:59 AM
You really should stop this while you're behind. The hole is just getting bigger.

OK, then counter my opinion with your own:

Do you believe that OG is sufficiently-literate in English to do his job?

Do you believe that KW has enough business training to do his job?

Given the dumb things they've done over and over again [Playing Thome v. LHP, continuing to start Pierre and leading him off, Trading the two best pitchers AZ has for Jackson, signing Teahen to a big money contract, among other things] do you believe that these two are intelligent?

[Remember, a wise man does not repeat his mistakes, but a foolish one does.]


I separate the question about their erudition from the question about their intellect, as we've agreed that these are separate questions.

khan
06-22-2011, 11:01 AM
Some of the points about ozwaldos education have some merit but he has coaches that can explain and read reports that oz may not be able to read and understand. I know Cora writes out the lineup card so I see no reason why his other coaches cant read and explain things to ozzie.

I totally disagree that Williams education is the reason some moves didn't work out. Not only do I believe that Williams is an intelligent guy even though he doesnt have an advanced education but he also has people on his staff that are educated and intelligent, eg: Hahn. Williams has made some bad moves and some good ones, it happens to all GM's and has nothing to do with his education.

Noneck, while I may not agree with your opinions, at least you've bothered to foster your own. I appreciate your intellectual honesty here.

Some would rather hit rock bottom by making false accusations, and then mealy-mouthing their way to a so-called apology.

soltrain21
06-22-2011, 11:04 AM
Noneck, while I may not agree with your opinions, at least you've bothered to foster your own. I appreciate your intellectual honesty here.

Some would rather hit rock bottom by making false accusations, and then mealy-mouthing their way to a so-called apology.

So, you aren't making false accusations by saying the reason some of KW's moves haven't worked out is because he doesn't have an education?

You are so super smart, so I'm sure you've heard the phrase "pot meet kettle."

khan
06-22-2011, 11:08 AM
So, you aren't making false accusations by saying the reason some of KW's moves haven't worked out is because he doesn't have an education?

You are so super smart, so I'm sure you've heard the phrase "pot meet kettle."

Incorrect. I am advancing an opinion, and backing it with examples.

Insofar as false accusations, ask The Old Roman about calling people "racists," and then his bull**** "apology."

kobo
06-22-2011, 11:09 AM
I don't disagree that Theo has made some bad moves. But on the other hand, I would posit that he's made more good moves than KW has in recent years. I can't really comment on Lugo beyond the fact that he did win a WS with baahsten.


Well, I have no reason to dislike "them," I dislike the dumb things they do over and over and over again. I actually happen to be a fan of both guys, but not a fan of their decisionmaking processes, nor of the stupid things they say in public.

And again, your opinion of KW being a "pretty bright dude" is just that: An opinion.

The reality is, however, that he did not attain as much in the classroom as others that hold his job. This, whether we like it or not, is no opinion.
The reality is that none of us know if this hinders or helps his ability to do his job. You're just assuming that more education means better understanding of the job. That's quite an assumption to make.

soltrain21
06-22-2011, 11:10 AM
Incorrect. I am advancing an opinion, and backing it with examples.

Insofar as false accusations, ask The Old Roman about calling people "racists," and then his bull**** "apology."

His statements are no more or less false than the crap you are spewing out. After all, they are just opinions.

khan
06-22-2011, 11:14 AM
His statements are no more or less false than the crap you are spewing out. After all, they are just opinions.

Again, you're incorrect.

We do know that OG has very little education, and we do know that KW has less education than his peer GMs or the agents that represent the players with whom he's negotiating. None of these items are opinions. These are factual in basis.

On the other hand, TOR threw out the "racism" card without ever seeing or hearing me ever doing anything of that nature. That, my friend, is baseless. He backed it without being man enough to apologize. I honestly would not have posted in this thread again if he did.


The part about my view that is opinion in nature is that OG's and KW's repeated mistakes in judgement are indications of a less-active mind. I did, however, back this opinion with examples, thus establishing some basis.

getonbckthr
06-22-2011, 11:23 AM
This may come across as sounding terrible but part of me wants Pierre to land on the 15 day DL just so we can get Viciedo up here.

VMSNS
06-22-2011, 12:44 PM
Anyone catch Ozzie's comments yesterday about Viciedo? Kenny has continually stated that Ozzie makes the lineup, and that if Ozzie wants Viciedo up here, then Ozzie can call him up. Yesterday, it was Ozzie who said that he likes the lineup that he has, and that if Kenny wants Viciedo up here, then Kenny can call him up. Why can't these two bumbling idiots just sit down and agree on what to do with this kid? Meanwhile, Ozzie is out there asking reporters "Where am I supposed to play Viciedo? Why does it have to be Juan that's cut? I've got two guys hitting worse than Juan is!"

Are you too stupid to figure this out, Oz? Pierre has nothing. He can't hit, play defense, throw or catch a baseball, run, or steal bases. He brings nothing to the table. And on top of that, he's not even going to be here next season! Eat the remaining two or three million or whatever on his contract, and he's gone for good. Really, it's that simple. Meanwhile, Dunn is in the first year of a 4-year contract and has a track-record of being a prolific HR hitter (despite playing like garbage right now) and Rios is also in the middle of a multi-year contract and has put together good seasons in the past. You're not going to bench or cut either of those guys. Pierre is the only logical choice here. Not to mention he has the second worst WAR in the entire game of baseball at the moment. Someone behind-the-scenes is sticking their head out for Pierre right now, and I'm thinking it's Ozzie trying to protect one of his "buddies".

The management of this team is so childish at times. There's not enough room in this organization for Kenny and Ozzie's massive egos.

kufram
06-22-2011, 12:54 PM
OK, then counter my opinion with your own:

Do you believe that OG is sufficiently-literate in English to do his job?

Do you believe that KW has enough business training to do his job?

Given the dumb things they've done over and over again [Playing Thome v. LHP, continuing to start Pierre and leading him off, Trading the two best pitchers AZ has for Jackson, signing Teahen to a big money contract, among other things] do you believe that these two are intelligent?

[Remember, a wise man does not repeat his mistakes, but a foolish one does.]


I separate the question about their erudition from the question about their intellect, as we've agreed that these are separate questions.

I offer opinions when I want to not when you think I should, for starters. You seem to have a grating internet personality and an overly high opinion of yourself which has been pointed out by several posters. Maybe you could address that? .... and I don't mean on this message board.

I am in no position to sit in judgement of Ozzie or Kenny so I don't. But I do know baseball is, to quite a degree, a crap shoot. A lot of people were pretty sure this team was going to be fun to watch this year. So far that has not been the case consistently. Unfortunately, several pieces are misfiring. If 3-4 players perform to anything like most expectations then this debate doesn't even take place because they would be in first place and all would be well in Mudville (literary reference if you don't know).

One senses you have a massive inflated ego and nothing I say will be enough to satisfy your hunger for all to agree with your assessments. I will tell you one thing Kenny has that you could use a little of.... dignity.

Oh, and just because you like having your fuse lit I'll answer your question directly... yes, I think Kenny and Ozzie are intelligent human beings. I think they both make mistakes, perhaps enough to cost them their jobs. I make lots of mistakes myself and I'm in charge with a lot of responsibility. One day even you may make a mistake. A man who makes no mistakes is a man who does nothing.

I'm done here.

TheOldRoman
06-22-2011, 01:07 PM
I offer opinions when I want to not when you think I should, for starters. You seem to have a grating internet personality and an overly high opinion of yourself which has been pointed out by several posters. Maybe you could address that? .... and I don't mean on this message board.

I am in no position to sit in judgement of Ozzie or Kenny so I don't. But I do know baseball is, to quite a degree, a crap shoot. A lot of people were pretty sure this team was going to be fun to watch this year. So far that has not been the case consistently. Unfortunately, several pieces are misfiring. If 3-4 players perform to anything like most expectations then this debate doesn't even take place because they would be in first place and all would be well in Mudville (literary reference if you don't know).

One senses you have a massive inflated ego and nothing I say will be enough to satisfy your hunger for all to agree with your assessments. I will tell you one thing Kenny has that you could use a little of.... dignity.

Oh, and just because you like having your fuse lit I'll answer your question directly... yes, I think Kenny and Ozzie are intelligent human beings. I think they both make mistakes, perhaps enough to cost them their jobs. I make lots of mistakes myself and I'm in charge with a lot of responsibility. One day even you may make a mistake. A man who makes no mistakes is a man who does nothing.

I'm done here.:clap:
I am reminded of a quote which is said to David Spade in Tommy Boy, "I don't like you. Probably never will. You're a smug, unhappy little man and you treat people like they are idiots."

KMcMahon817
06-22-2011, 01:11 PM
I offer opinions when I want to not when you think I should, for starters. You seem to have a grating internet personality and an overly high opinion of yourself which has been pointed out by several posters. Maybe you could address that? .... and I don't mean on this message board.

I am in no position to sit in judgement of Ozzie or Kenny so I don't. But I do know baseball is, to quite a degree, a crap shoot. A lot of people were pretty sure this team was going to be fun to watch this year. So far that has not been the case consistently. Unfortunately, several pieces are misfiring. If 3-4 players perform to anything like most expectations then this debate doesn't even take place because they would be in first place and all would be well in Mudville (literary reference if you don't know).

One senses you have a massive inflated ego and nothing I say will be enough to satisfy your hunger for all to agree with your assessments. I will tell you one thing Kenny has that you could use a little of.... dignity.

Oh, and just because you like having your fuse lit I'll answer your question directly... yes, I think Kenny and Ozzie are intelligent human beings. I think they both make mistakes, perhaps enough to cost them their jobs. I make lots of mistakes myself and I'm in charge with a lot of responsibility. One day even you may make a mistake. A man who makes no mistakes is a man who does nothing.

I'm done here.

:clap::clap::clap::lol::lol::cheers:

spawn
06-22-2011, 03:38 PM
The stereotype that education makes one smart baffles me, the basic behind all education is instilled in the first few years of school, primary teachers do a wonderful thing, they instill the ability to learn, if you never learn to learn you will never achieve any amount of education.

But my opinion means nothing since I am one of the unwashed masses that does not have a piece of sheepskin that proves I'm smart.

Neither do I. That must mean I'm pretty stoopid.

Tragg
06-22-2011, 04:40 PM
Again, you're incorrect.

We do know that OG has very little education, and we do know that KW has less education than his peer GMs or the agents that represent the players with whom he's negotiating. None of these items are opinions. These are factual in basis.

On the other hand, TOR threw out the "racism" card without ever seeing or hearing me ever doing anything of that nature. That, my friend, is baseless. He backed it without being man enough to apologize. I honestly would not have posted in this thread again if he did.


The part about my view that is opinion in nature is that OG's and KW's repeated mistakes in judgement are indications of a less-active mind. I did, however, back this opinion with examples, thus establishing some basis.
Education isn't the problem. Poor talent evaluation (by the front office and by the field manager), and a series of terrible trades is the problem.
You don't need a degree to know that to trade 3 legit prospects for a player and then quickly dump that player in a rush-job to placate the field manager for essentially 3 organizational minor leaguers is bad management.

dickallen15
06-22-2011, 05:45 PM
I also don't disagree with you. But again, OG supposedly "went" to elementary school in a then-3rd world country, but as a prodigy baseball player. It may also have been that he was "promoted" through school because he could hit, field, and throw better than the other kids, and not necessarily because he did the work in class. [Heck, it happens for prodigy athletes in THIS country, so how much moreso in late '60s/early '70s Venezuela?]


Without insulting him, I doubt that his elementary schooling was very good or very thorough. Moreover, it was in a language other than English. So, it is entirely within the realm of possibilities that he actually has little-to-no reading comprehension when he's given a scouting report.

In other words, he may very well be functionally illiterate in English.

Perhaps this is why he kept plugging in Jim Thome vs. lefties for all those years, or why Juan Pierre continues to get much more playing time than he deserves.
I do understand some positions require a certain level of education, but this is baseball. C'mon. They both apparently did their jobs well enough at least one year, and hey, I'm no fan of either, but KW does employ a very highly educated assitant in Rick Hahn to do the work that requires other kinds of training. Ozzie has very little formal education and I think he's a jackass, but he is very highly educated baseball-wise. It doesn't mean he's necessarily smarter than someone with less experience, but he does have an "education". Obviously both should kiss the ground and thank God professional baseball exists, because chances are it was their only hope at making a big living, but its silly to think you need a degree or even an advanced degree to be a baseball manager.

SI1020
06-22-2011, 06:21 PM
Dude, Shakepeare was SUPER hateful. I must be dumb because I never knew that. Doubly so because my eyes glazed when I had to read his plays in high school, although in my defense I can quote a line or two. Regarding the back and forth I don't believe you need a Mensa level IQ to be a good baseball player, manager, scout or front office person. I would prefer that you know a hell of a lot about the game, with all of its complexities and nuances, especially those in management. Concerning Ozzie, his English as fractured as it is beats the hell out of my Spanish, and I've been trying off and on since the 60's to navigate it, without much success. I think he was a so so game day manager who has actually regressed with experience. I don't attribute it to stupidity as much as I do to the peculiarities of the man's personality. I would never call him stupid, some of his game day moves yes, but not him personally. When KW first got hired as Sox GM I had on the TV, and ESPN or whatever channel I was watching had his press conference on. My wife, who was in another room, heard him speak and walked into the room and asked me who that was. I told her and she remarked that you rarely heard someone that articulate any more. Of course now some may call my wife stupid, but she's smart enough to stay the hell off the internet, and even if you did call her dumb or whatever she wouldn't care at all, her self assurance being what it is. I think KW could hold his own Prop 48 or not, but he does display at times an arrogant tone that annoys me. I am humble by nature, and even if I wasn't my life has been sufficiently difficult enough to knock any pomposity right out of me. That's my bias. I'm ready to bid adieu to both Messrs. Guillen and Williams, wishing them all the best, and hoping against hope that their successors would have the baseball wisdom of a Casey Stengel, who was a most curious wordsmith himself.

Tragg
06-22-2011, 06:30 PM
This may come across as sounding terrible but part of me wants Pierre to land on the 15 day DL just so we can get Viciedo up here.

That's the only way we got rid of Ozzie favs Owens and Wise.

Daver
06-22-2011, 10:10 PM
We do know that OG has very little education, and we do know that KW has less education than his peer GMs or the agents that represent the players with whom he's negotiating. None of these items are opinions. These are factual in basis.


They both know what a minor league instructors duties actually are, something you can't seem to grasp, so who is smarter than whom?

doublem23
06-22-2011, 10:31 PM
We do know that OG has very little education, and we do know that KW has less education than his peer GMs or the agents that represent the players with whom he's negotiating. None of these items are opinions. These are factual in basis.

I'm pretty sure Hahn, a graduate of both Harvard Law School and Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, does most of the heavy lifting on contract negotiations.

A. Cavatica
06-22-2011, 10:32 PM
They both know what a minor league instructors duties actually are, something you can't seem to grasp, so who is smarter than whom?

Didn't KW go to Stanford? He might not have graduated, but that's pretty impressive.

Frater Perdurabo
06-22-2011, 10:40 PM
They both know what a minor league instructors duties actually are, something you can't seem to grasp, so who is smarter than whom?

The only Sox position players that spent significant time in the Sox minor league system are Lillibridge and Morel, and both of them seem to play pretty decent fundamental baseball, especially Morel. Beckham didn't spend much time in the minors; and Pierre, Quentin, AJ, Rios, Paulie, Teahen, Alexei, Castro, Dunn and Vizquel all came to the Sox major league team from other organizations.

So we really can't fault the Sox minor league system for any current Sox MLB position players generally failing to play solid fundamental baseball.

Daver, I believe you have said elsewhere (and I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, so if I am wrong, please correct me) that it is not the job of major league coaches to "teach" fundamentals to major league players.

But I maintain that it is the job of the major league coaches to put their players in the best possible position to win. If that means spending extra time teaching and drilling your $14M veteran CF how to hit an outside pitch to the right side of the infield, instead of trying to pull it and grounding out to the SS/3B for a GIDP, then so be it. If that means working overtime with your high-power RF on the accuracy of his throws, then so be it. If that means working with the pitchers, catchers and middle infielders on throwing out opposing base stealers, so be it. If that means working with the infielders on rundown drills, and the outfielders on backing up the infielders, so be it. If that means getting to the ballpark at noon every day before a night game, or staying late after a day game, or coming in on an off day, to practice all these things, so be it.

As long as any Sox major league ballplayers - who didn't spend much or any time in the Sox minor league system - fail to play solid, fundamental baseball, then I will maintain that the major league coaches are responsible for rectifying the situation.

Finally, if it's not a major league coaching staff's job to teach - and make his players practice - fundamentals, then why does Ron Gardenhire do it?

JermaineDye05
06-22-2011, 10:43 PM
I'm pretty sure Hahn, a graduate of both Harvard Law School and Northwestern's Kellogg School of Management, does most of the heavy lifting on contract negotiations.

I thought I heard/read somewhere that he handled most of the Konerko negotations this past winter.

Daver
06-22-2011, 10:46 PM
I thought I heard/read somewhere that he handled most of the Konerko negotations this past winter.

He handles all the contract writing, and a good chunk of the negotiating.

Daver
06-22-2011, 10:54 PM
The only Sox position players that spent significant time in the Sox minor league system are Lillibridge and Morel, and both of them seem to play pretty decent fundamental baseball, especially Morel. Beckham didn't spend much time in the minors; and Pierre, Quentin, AJ, Rios, Paulie, Teahen, Alexei, Castro, Dunn and Vizquel all came to the Sox major league team from other organizations.

So we really can't fault the Sox minor league system for any current Sox MLB position players generally failing to play solid fundamental baseball.

Daver, I believe you have said elsewhere (and I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, so if I am wrong, please correct me) that it is not the job of major league coaches to "teach" fundamentals to major league players.

But I maintain that it is the job of the major league coaches to put their players in the best possible position to win. If that means spending extra time teaching and drilling your $14M veteran CF how to hit an outside pitch to the right side of the infield, instead of trying to pull it and grounding out to the SS/3B for a GIDP, then so be it. If that means working overtime with your high-power RF on the accuracy of his throws, then so be it. If that means working with the pitchers, catchers and middle infielders on throwing out opposing base stealers, so be it. If that means working with the infielders on rundown drills, and the outfielders on backing up the infielders, so be it. If that means getting to the ballpark at noon every day before a night game, or staying late after a day game, or coming in on an off day, to practice all these things, so be it.

As long as any Sox major league ballplayers - who didn't spend much or any time in the Sox minor league system - fail to play solid, fundamental baseball, then I will maintain that the major league coaches are responsible for rectifying the situation.

Finally, if it's not a major league coaching staff's job to teach - and make his players practice - fundamentals, then why does Ron Gardenhire do it?


Exactly how does a hitting coach make a player making twenty times what he is listen to what he has to say?

If an organization sends players to the MLB level that are not prepared to play there, it is not the problem of the MLB coaches, and they should not be expected to fix it.

Ron Gardenhire only does field practice with his team when he wants to send a message to them, because for the most part his teams are always fundamentally sound.

Nellie_Fox
06-23-2011, 12:10 AM
Firstly, thanks for not calling me a "racist," without any real reason to do so, other than your fandom of one person. I also thank you for not accusing me of posting under another name, also without basis. At the very least, you are actually "calling me out" on my opinion by offering your own view. I like it.


To the point of your post, I don't disagree that education doesn't make one "smart." But, it can help you read a scouting report. It can help you understand the numbers behind a player's tendencies, and then, take the appropriate measures. Having enough education can help you understand what other utility IF are being paid, and make the appropriate offer in negotiation.

Like it or not, OG quit school as a child, and may or may not have the ability to read and comprehend a scouting report, for example. He may not be able to do a 5 minute look around BP to see how other speedy, slap-hitting players age, as in the case of Mssr. Pierre. This is especially true, in that English is not his native tongue.

KW quit college before even finishing 1 year. Likewise, he may not have the training to understand that Teahen is not worth what he offered him, due to a lack of education.

Insofar as intellect goes, well, persisting in playing Pierre everyday isn't smart. Nor is trading the sun, the moon, and the stars to AZ for an expensive, inconsistent, and overrated Jackson. [Who probably should have been gotten for salary alone.] And there are many other examples of unintelligent choices made by these two.


So we agree that there may be issues of erudition with these two, but there also appear to be issues of intellect with these two. Both issues may be problems for this organization, unfortunately.None of this answers how law school helps anybody be a better field manager or general manager. Law school doesn't make you better able to determine how to use a bullpen, or a better evaluator of talent. It won't tell you when to do a suicide squeeze (which was a BRILLIANT call by Ozzie tonight; absolutely nobody expected that on the first pitch with AJ gasping for breath after legging out the triple.)

Law school doesn't teach anything that would help Tony LaRussa be the manager he is. Also, let me point out that Michael McCaskey has a Ph.D. in management. How'd that work out for the Bears?

Sox
06-23-2011, 12:46 AM
The only Sox position players that spent significant time in the Sox minor league system are Lillibridge and Morel, and both of them seem to play pretty decent fundamental baseball, especially Morel. Beckham didn't spend much time in the minors; and Pierre, Quentin, AJ, Rios, Paulie, Teahen, Alexei, Castro, Dunn and Vizquel all came to the Sox major league team from other organizations.

So we really can't fault the Sox minor league system for any current Sox MLB position players generally failing to play solid fundamental baseball.

Daver, I believe you have said elsewhere (and I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, so if I am wrong, please correct me) that it is not the job of major league coaches to "teach" fundamentals to major league players.

But I maintain that it is the job of the major league coaches to put their players in the best possible position to win. If that means spending extra time teaching and drilling your $14M veteran CF how to hit an outside pitch to the right side of the infield, instead of trying to pull it and grounding out to the SS/3B for a GIDP, then so be it. If that means working overtime with your high-power RF on the accuracy of his throws, then so be it. If that means working with the pitchers, catchers and middle infielders on throwing out opposing base stealers, so be it. If that means working with the infielders on rundown drills, and the outfielders on backing up the infielders, so be it. If that means getting to the ballpark at noon every day before a night game, or staying late after a day game, or coming in on an off day, to practice all these things, so be it.

As long as any Sox major league ballplayers - who didn't spend much or any time in the Sox minor league system - fail to play solid, fundamental baseball, then I will maintain that the major league coaches are responsible for rectifying the situation.

Finally, if it's not a major league coaching staff's job to teach - and make his players practice - fundamentals, then why does Ron Gardenhire do it?

Great Post!!!!!:clap::cheers:

kufram
06-23-2011, 05:34 AM
The only Sox position players that spent significant time in the Sox minor league system are Lillibridge and Morel, and both of them seem to play pretty decent fundamental baseball, especially Morel. Beckham didn't spend much time in the minors; and Pierre, Quentin, AJ, Rios, Paulie, Teahen, Alexei, Castro, Dunn and Vizquel all came to the Sox major league team from other organizations.

So we really can't fault the Sox minor league system for any current Sox MLB position players generally failing to play solid fundamental baseball.

Daver, I believe you have said elsewhere (and I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, so if I am wrong, please correct me) that it is not the job of major league coaches to "teach" fundamentals to major league players.

But I maintain that it is the job of the major league coaches to put their players in the best possible position to win. If that means spending extra time teaching and drilling your $14M veteran CF how to hit an outside pitch to the right side of the infield, instead of trying to pull it and grounding out to the SS/3B for a GIDP, then so be it. If that means working overtime with your high-power RF on the accuracy of his throws, then so be it. If that means working with the pitchers, catchers and middle infielders on throwing out opposing base stealers, so be it. If that means working with the infielders on rundown drills, and the outfielders on backing up the infielders, so be it. If that means getting to the ballpark at noon every day before a night game, or staying late after a day game, or coming in on an off day, to practice all these things, so be it.

As long as any Sox major league ballplayers - who didn't spend much or any time in the Sox minor league system - fail to play solid, fundamental baseball, then I will maintain that the major league coaches are responsible for rectifying the situation.

Finally, if it's not a major league coaching staff's job to teach - and make his players practice - fundamentals, then why does Ron Gardenhire do it?

I agree with everything you say but getting players in at noon every day there is a night game, and it would have to be every day for any real progress to be made, isn't viable. An mlb season is a grind as it is. Spring training is the time for this.... training being the operative word. I don't really know much about what happens in Arizona but it doesn't appear to me that the team is drilled, and I mean drilled, at the fundamentals needed come game time.

Frater Perdurabo
06-23-2011, 05:44 AM
Exactly how does a hitting coach make a player making twenty times what he is listen to what he has to say?

If an organization sends players to the MLB level that are not prepared to play there, it is not the problem of the MLB coaches, and they should not be expected to fix it.

Ron Gardenhire only does field practice with his team when he wants to send a message to them, because for the most part his teams are always fundamentally sound.

1. By being right, and having a track record of success helping other players. Seems to work for Cooper as a pitching coach, and Clint Hurdle and Rudy Jaramillo as hitting coaches.

2. It is the job of a coach to maximize his players' talents to put them in a position to succeed, so that the team will win. In every other organization, winning is the primary goal. With the Sox, loyalty is more important.

3. Ozzie only runs fundamentals drills when he wants to send a message to the media, does it for a day, and then drops it. Lipstick, meet Pig.

TomBradley72
06-23-2011, 08:34 AM
None of this answers how law school helps anybody be a better field manager or general manager. Law school doesn't make you better able to determine how to use a bullpen, or a better evaluator of talent. It won't tell you when to do a suicide squeeze (which was a BRILLIANT call by Ozzie tonight; absolutely nobody expected that on the first pitch with AJ gasping for breath after legging out the triple.)

Law school doesn't teach anything that would help Tony LaRussa be the manager he is. Also, let me point out that Michael McCaskey has a Ph.D. in management. How'd that work out for the Bears?

From my experience in different professions with different people, etc.- there may not be a direct connection between education and an occupation- but in the Larussa example- a law degree can develop skills in logic, deductive reasoning, the basic disciplines of studying and evaluating facts, etc. that could help Larussa in his manager role- but it's unique to each individual- only Larussa could describe if it's made a difference for him.

There are business executives who have liberal arts degrees and describe that it helps them with their creativity, or dealing with diverse types of people, etc. There are artists who studied math and describe how the patterns found in mathematics, etc. help them as an artist.

It's not black and white- in fact most studies indicate that what you study in college is not highly correlated with your ultimate career- but most people I've met will still stay that the experience and process of earning a degree helped them with their ultimate profession.

There are people with advanced degrees who are still incompetent. There are people who never graduated high school who are brilliant.

There are people with advanced degrees who are brilliant. There are people who never graduated high school who are complete idiots.

TomBradley72
06-23-2011, 10:29 AM
June results so far:

Juan Pierre: .217 BA/.270 OBP/.261 SLG, 1/2 stealing- 69 ABs
Brent Lillibridge: .243 BA/.364 OBP/.432 SLG, 1/1 stolen base- 37 ABs
Dayan Viciedo: .369 BA/.391 OBP/.524 SLG- 84 ABs

Noneck
06-23-2011, 10:51 AM
June results so far:

Juan Pierre: .217 BA/.270 OBP/.261 SLG, 1/2 stealing- 69 ABs
Brent Lillibridge: .243 BA/.364 OBP/.432 SLG, 1/1 stolen base- 37 ABs
Dayan Viciedo: .369 BA/.391 OBP/.524 SLG- 84 ABs

You cant compare graded stakes stats with allowance stats.

khan
06-23-2011, 11:01 AM
None of this answers how law school helps anybody be a better field manager or general manager. Law school doesn't make you better able to determine how to use a bullpen, or a better evaluator of talent. It won't tell you when to do a suicide squeeze (which was a BRILLIANT call by Ozzie tonight; absolutely nobody expected that on the first pitch with AJ gasping for breath after legging out the triple.)

Law school doesn't teach anything that would help Tony LaRussa be the manager he is. Also, let me point out that Michael McCaskey has a Ph.D. in management. How'd that work out for the Bears?
That's a fair question, but I never specifically stated that law school makes one a better manager.

I did use LaRussa's educational experience as an example of an educated man being good at his job. I am also of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to read and understand scouting reports, to read and understand splits, or to read and understand a player's trends.

I also remain of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to relate information to others in such a way to make it understandable and usable to them. In other words, to be able to teach because you yourself have gone through the process of having been taught.

Now, I agree that specifically any type of graduate school is not requisite to succeed as field manager. That said, since LaRussa has had ~18 to 20 years of formal schooling, he can probably read the scouting reports, splits, and trends better than OG can. He can probably teach the fundamentals to his players better than OG can, because he has a keener understanding of having been a pupil. He has these benefits from having undergone the discipline of formal schooling.

Look at how his in-game strategy is much more effective than OG's, and how he uses the hot hand better than OG, and how his players are more fundamentally sound than OG's, for example. This may be coincidental, or it may not be.

By contrast, OG quit school at an age where perhaps he should have been in the 9th or 10th grade. However, that was in a then-3rd world country, so by comparison he may have had only the chance for an equivalent 7th or 8th grade education in the US. Add into this that he was a prodigy athlete, and he may have been promoted without being as proficient as others. Add into the equation that English is not his native tongue. On a "real terms" basis, OG's 9th or 10th grade Venezuelan education may be more equivalent to a 5th grade American education, because of the aforementioned factors. [I doubt that a 5th grader can read a scouting report, or teach an adult how to go with an outside pitch, and hit it to the right side, for example.]


In sum, perhaps the SOX suck at the fundamentals because the manager doesn't know how to teach or how to be taught. Perhaps Thome was hit 3rd v LHP, and how Dunn remained at #3 in the lineup v. LHP after going ~0-30 because OG can't read and understand splits or scouting reports. And perhaps the in-game strategy suffers because he hasn't formally studied strategy.

Again, I'm not discounting OG, or his baseball education. But intellect and in-school education count in management of any type of business.

khan
06-23-2011, 11:10 AM
From my experience in different professions with different people, etc.- there may not be a direct connection between education and an occupation- but in the Larussa example- a law degree can develop skills in logic, deductive reasoning, the basic disciplines of studying and evaluating facts, etc. that could help Larussa in his manager role- but it's unique to each individual- only Larussa could describe if it's made a difference for him.

Tom, I agree with your entire post. But the bolded part states what I have been stating:

That having gone to school can help a manager with these things. Heck, ANY type of education can help a person with the bolded parts, not just Law School.

doublem23
06-23-2011, 11:11 AM
In sum, perhaps the SOX suck at the fundamentals because the manager doesn't know how to teach or how to be taught. Perhaps Thome was hit 3rd v LHP, and how Dunn remained at #3 in the lineup v. LHP after going ~0-30 because OG can't read and understand splits or scouting reports. And perhaps the in-game strategy suffers because he hasn't formally studied strategy.

:rolling:

http://www.macombfantasysports.com/baseball%20pics/hawk_harrelson.jpg
Streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch

russ99
06-23-2011, 11:15 AM
2. It is the job of a coach to maximize his players' talents to put them in a position to succeed, so that the team will win. In every other organization, winning is the primary goal. With the Sox, loyalty is more important.


That's opinion of people who dislike the current management staff, and not rooted in reality.

When Jerry shelled out all that cash this winter, was it about loyalty or winning?

When Kenny added Peavy and Dunn (and tried to solve the DH problem with Ramirez last summer) was that about loyalty or winning?

When Ozzie moves players around the lineup, keeps guys in to work through their problems (veterans and younger players alike) and won't send a starter to the pen to shake their confidence - is that about loyalty or winning?

You may dislike them, but they are most certainly about winning.

In sum, perhaps the SOX suck at the fundamentals because the manager doesn't know how to teach or how to be taught. Perhaps Thome was hit 3rd v LHP, and how Dunn remained at #3 in the lineup v. LHP after going ~0-30 because OG can't read and understand splits or scouting reports. And perhaps the in-game strategy suffers because he hasn't formally studied strategy.

Again, because your philosophy on how baseball should be played doesn't mesh with Ozzie's, by no means is he incompetent, or that he hasn't studied strategy. He's studied strategy with Torborg, McKeon and Cox - winning NL strategy and the same strategy that won us a title.

All the scouting reports in the world isn't bringing Dunn's bat back. Having him work his way through it may.

Daver
06-23-2011, 11:16 AM
That hole just keeps getting wider and deeper.

Marqhead
06-23-2011, 11:28 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3832871996_53f8c574fb.jpg

TheOldRoman
06-23-2011, 11:47 AM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3832871996_53f8c574fb.jpg:rolling:

dickallen15
06-23-2011, 12:00 PM
That's a fair question, but I never specifically stated that law school makes one a better manager.

I did use LaRussa's educational experience as an example of an educated man being good at his job. I am also of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to read and understand scouting reports, to read and understand splits, or to read and understand a player's trends.

I also remain of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to relate information to others in such a way to make it understandable and usable to them. In other words, to be able to teach because you yourself have gone through the process of having been taught.

Now, I agree that specifically any type of graduate school is not requisite to succeed as field manager. That said, since LaRussa has had ~18 to 20 years of formal schooling, he can probably read the scouting reports, splits, and trends better than OG can. He can probably teach the fundamentals to his players better than OG can, because he has a keener understanding of having been a pupil. He has these benefits from having undergone the discipline of formal schooling.

Look at how his in-game strategy is much more effective than OG's, and how he uses the hot hand better than OG, and how his players are more fundamentally sound than OG's, for example. This may be coincidental, or it may not be.

By contrast, OG quit school at an age where perhaps he should have been in the 9th or 10th grade. However, that was in a then-3rd world country, so by comparison he may have had only the chance for an equivalent 7th or 8th grade education in the US. Add into this that he was a prodigy athlete, and he may have been promoted without being as proficient as others. Add into the equation that English is not his native tongue. On a "real terms" basis, OG's 9th or 10th grade Venezuelan education may be more equivalent to a 5th grade American education, because of the aforementioned factors. [I doubt that a 5th grader can read a scouting report, or teach an adult how to go with an outside pitch, and hit it to the right side, for example.]


In sum, perhaps the SOX suck at the fundamentals because the manager doesn't know how to teach or how to be taught. Perhaps Thome was hit 3rd v LHP, and how Dunn remained at #3 in the lineup v. LHP after going ~0-30 because OG can't read and understand splits or scouting reports. And perhaps the in-game strategy suffers because he hasn't formally studied strategy.

Again, I'm not discounting OG, or his baseball education. But intellect and in-school education count in management of any type of business.

What kind of courses designed to make you a better professional baseball manager or talent evaluator did they offer at your school?

kufram
06-23-2011, 12:38 PM
Yes the hole is deeper today. Just stop digging. If you put enough supposition together you can reach any conclusion you want to come to.

My daughter just got her honors degree in Biomedical Sciences at one of the best universities in England and was just awarded a 4 year funded studentship to gain a PhD. at one of the finest research institutions in the world. She worked hard to achieve these things and in doing so has picked up many skills that could lead her down any number of future paths that we can't even imagine. I couldn't do what she has done in a million years.

I have a high school education. I don't do well in institutions. I taught myself to play a few instruments. I am a creative thinker more than a scientific thinker.... yet she asks for my advise on everything important to her. I have more knowledge than she does. I am traveled and experienced in many things one can't learn except by doing and making mistakes. The only thing I have tried to teach her is to not be afraid to make a mistake... that is how you learn.

Education and knowledge are words that do not necessarily mean the same thing. Both are valuable assets but one doesn't absolutely lead to the other.

kobo
06-23-2011, 12:50 PM
That's a fair question, but I never specifically stated that law school makes one a better manager.

I did use LaRussa's educational experience as an example of an educated man being good at his job. I am also of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to read and understand scouting reports, to read and understand splits, or to read and understand a player's trends.

I also remain of the opinion that one has to have a reasonable level of education to be able to relate information to others in such a way to make it understandable and usable to them. In other words, to be able to teach because you yourself have gone through the process of having been taught.

Now, I agree that specifically any type of graduate school is not requisite to succeed as field manager. That said, since LaRussa has had ~18 to 20 years of formal schooling, he can probably read the scouting reports, splits, and trends better than OG can. He can probably teach the fundamentals to his players better than OG can, because he has a keener understanding of having been a pupil. He has these benefits from having undergone the discipline of formal schooling.

Look at how his in-game strategy is much more effective than OG's, and how he uses the hot hand better than OG, and how his players are more fundamentally sound than OG's, for example. This may be coincidental, or it may not be.

By contrast, OG quit school at an age where perhaps he should have been in the 9th or 10th grade. However, that was in a then-3rd world country, so by comparison he may have had only the chance for an equivalent 7th or 8th grade education in the US. Add into this that he was a prodigy athlete, and he may have been promoted without being as proficient as others. Add into the equation that English is not his native tongue. On a "real terms" basis, OG's 9th or 10th grade Venezuelan education may be more equivalent to a 5th grade American education, because of the aforementioned factors. [I doubt that a 5th grader can read a scouting report, or teach an adult how to go with an outside pitch, and hit it to the right side, for example.]


In sum, perhaps the SOX suck at the fundamentals because the manager doesn't know how to teach or how to be taught. Perhaps Thome was hit 3rd v LHP, and how Dunn remained at #3 in the lineup v. LHP after going ~0-30 because OG can't read and understand splits or scouting reports. And perhaps the in-game strategy suffers because he hasn't formally studied strategy.

Again, I'm not discounting OG, or his baseball education. But intellect and in-school education count in management of any type of business.
LaRussa might also be a better manager because he has an extra 20 years of experience over OG when it comes to managing. If you're going to compare LaRussa to Guillen then you should be looking at what LaRussa did in his first 10 years as manager and compare to Guillen. You keep going on and on about education when experience is just as much as a factor, and maybe more so.

Another point to consider is that it has been reported and stated that Guillen manages from his gut, and not necessarily concerns himself with statistics. That's a philosophy and a style of managing which contradicts a more educated, thought out, and logical way of managing. Perhaps it's not the lack of education that is Guillen's problem, but rather his overall philosophy when it comes to managing.

FielderJones
06-23-2011, 12:53 PM
LaRussa might also be a better manager because he has an extra 20 years of experience over OG when it comes to managing. If you're going to compare LaRussa to Guillen then you should be looking at what LaRussa did in his first 10 years as manager and compare to Guillen.

LaRussa had just finally learned how to handle a pitching staff when Hawk fired him. :angry:

spawn
06-23-2011, 12:57 PM
Yes the hole is deeper today. Just stop digging. If you put enough supposition together you can reach any conclusion you want to come to.

My daughter just got her honors degree in Biomedical Sciences at one of the best universities in England and was just awarded a 4 year funded studentship to gain a PhD. at one of the finest research institutions in the world. She worked hard to achieve these things and in doing so has picked up many skills that could lead her down any number of future paths that we can't even imagine. I couldn't do what she has done in a million years.

I have a high school education. I don't do well in institutions. I taught myself to play a few instruments. I am a creative thinker more than a scientific thinker.... yet she asks for my advise on everything important to her. I have more knowledge than she does. I am traveled and experienced in many things one can't learn except by doing and making mistakes. The only thing I have tried to teach her is to not be afraid to make a mistake... that is how you learn.

Education and knowledge are words that do not necessarily mean the same thing. Both are valuable assets but one doesn't absolutely lead to the other.
You have two posts in this thread that cannot be applauded enough. Your reasoned, non-confrontational posts make me actually care about your opinion. Too bad others in this thread can't take a hint. Anyway, congrats to your daughter. You must be very proud! :gulp:

kufram
06-23-2011, 01:34 PM
You have two posts in this thread that cannot be applauded enough. Your reasoned, non-confrontational posts make me actually care about your opinion. Too bad others in this thread can't take a hint. Anyway, congrats to your daughter. You must be very proud! :gulp:


Thank you. I just showed my daughter my last post and your post and she laughed and said "that's great!.. I'm useful!!"

SoxSpeed22
06-23-2011, 02:31 PM
For the hole this thread is in...
0VjPNKc0VsU
There's no "school" for helping managers with talent evaluation, motivating players or how to handle a pitching staff. That's something only experience and good mentoring can teach you. Ozzie has had some good mentors (Bobby Cox and Jack McKeon to name a few). He is also clearly showing patterns in what kind of players he wants, unfortunately for us, Pierre fits the mold for scrappy outfielder. Every manager has their tendencies and after 7 years, we understand Ozzie's tendencies when it comes to lineups.
Hahn's degree is useful for handling the business aspects of pro baseball, such as creating and negotiating contracts. But I'm pretty sure business school doesn't teach you how to evaluate baseball talent, who to draft when, baseball philosophy or scout for other teams players in free agency or trades.

Nellie_Fox
06-23-2011, 03:14 PM
There are people with advanced degrees who are still incompetent. There are people who never graduated high school who are brilliant.

There are people with advanced degrees who are brilliant. There are people who never graduated high school who are complete idiots.THIS is my point. I think everybody can benefit from education, but they are overlapping areas. AS A GROUP educated people will fare far better than the uneducated, but there are educated people who fall on the bell curve well below some uneducated people in the areas of talent and common sense. Education is not a be-all and end-all.

Ozzie has had some good mentors (Bobby Cox and Jack McKeon to name a few).Excellent point. How much formal education do Cox and McKeon have?

BigKlu59
06-23-2011, 03:32 PM
:cool: This is the reason why "hotstove" sales and barbershops and bars exist.. Juan Pierre is in a funk only he himself can figure out as a professional ball player.. Adam Dunn and Alex Rios as well. No Managerial strategy whether Larussian, Alstonian, Andersonian, Coxian, Guillienist would make a difference my distinguished colleagues.. Father time has made a victim of these three and they have to make the adjustments to their games to survive to compete at a high level... It would be nice if Dunn were Wally Pipp and we had a raw kid named Gerhrig to replace him in the dugout.

I'm sure Pierre would work on his small game, but his wheels just aint there anymore. When he cant beat out a deep short 6-4-3, the red flags start waving..

I was gonna give this guy a break thus far, butwhen 2/3 parts of your game start to look shaky it's time to re-evaluate.. I go with the Beast till Juan adjusts his stroke and becomes more of a slapper instaed of trying to swing long.. I know he's trying to smack it when he's pulling them down the line killing gophers instead of dropping it over the 3rd sackers head...

Leave the big strokes to PK and the "Crew"..

Is anyone surprised Dunn hasnt just tried to put the ball where it should go.. I'd be happy wit a few rainbows just over the left field wall once in a blue moon.. He can do it.. It seems he as well is trying to pull everything..


BK59

BigKlu59
06-23-2011, 03:39 PM
THIS is my point. I think everybody can benefit from education, but they are overlapping areas. AS A GROUP educated people will fare far better than the uneducated, but there are educated people who fall on the bell curve well below some uneducated people in the areas of talent and common sense. Education is not a be-all and end-all.

Excellent point. How much formal education do Cox and McKeon have?


+1 Exactly... Hell throw in Stengle, Alston, Anderson, Lasorda, Lopez and the rest of some of the Old Sages. You can use all the stats you want, but in reality its putting the bat on the ball and serendipity smiling on you in those occasions..

BK59

Daver
06-23-2011, 04:18 PM
THIS is my point. I think everybody can benefit from education, but they are overlapping areas. AS A GROUP educated people will fare far better than the uneducated, but there are educated people who fall on the bell curve well below some uneducated people in the areas of talent and common sense. Education is not a be-all and end-all.


So your phd does not make you a much better judge of baseball talent than my HS diploma?

Who'da thunk it.

Frater Perdurabo
06-23-2011, 04:20 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/3832871996_53f8c574fb.jpg

Genius

Domeshot17
06-23-2011, 04:24 PM
Ozzie isn't a bad manager because he is uneducated

Ozzie isn't an idiot because he is uneducated

Ozzie is a bad manage because he is an idiot

Frater Perdurabo
06-23-2011, 06:26 PM
That's opinion of people who dislike the current management staff, and not rooted in reality.

Which of the following facts is "not rooted in reality?"

Payroll regularly highest or second-highest in the division every year since 2006;

Complete roster turnover since 2006, other than AJ, Buehrle, PK and Thornton;

Same GM, field manager, bench coach and hitting coach since 2006;

Offense regularly opens each season with a months-long slump;

A record of 38-57 against the Twins since (and including) 2006;

A record of 11-29 against the Twins since (and including) 2009;

A record of 18-24 against the Tigers since (and including) 2009;

A record of 73-89 against the AL Central since (and including) 2009 (34-38 in 2009, 33-40 in 2010, and 6-11 in 2011).


Second question: Given the above objective facts, who still wants to argue that Ozzie, Cora and Walker are "coaching up" the performances of Sox position players, both as individuals and as a group of fielders and hitters?

I don't personally dislike Ozzie, Cora or Walker. I am dissatisfied with their job performance since April 2009, and JR should dissatisfied as well.

Nellie_Fox
06-24-2011, 12:13 AM
So your phd does not make you a much better judge of baseball talent than my HS diploma?

Who'da thunk it.Not remotely.

JermaineDye05
06-24-2011, 08:29 AM
Link (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/why-juan-pierre/)

This article puts it perfectly.

It's stupid to keep playing Pierre considering how close the team is to .500.

TomBradley72
06-24-2011, 08:56 AM
Link (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/why-juan-pierre/)

This article puts it perfectly.

It's stupid to keep playing Pierre considering how close the team is to .500.

So other than his mediocre defense, less than mediocore base stealing, mediocre OBP w/less than mediocre extra base hits- there's no clear evidence that's he's in decline?

We need to be more patient vs. scapegoating Juan- he's only had 330 plate appearances to work through his "slump" and he IS on pace to steal 22 bases this year.

Daver
06-24-2011, 07:54 PM
1. By being right, and having a track record of success helping other players. Seems to work for Cooper as a pitching coach, and Clint Hurdle and Rudy Jaramillo as hitting coaches.


A good hitting coach knows when he can help and when he can't, not a single Sox hitting coach ever attempted to tell Frank Thomas anything after Hriniak left, the same can be said on a lesser degree with Robin Ventura, because if they had problems it was mental, not mechanical. Von Joshua told me long ago that the biggest mistake a hitting coach can make is to think he can change a players mental approach, the result will never be positive.

And comparing a hitting coach to a pitching coach is a terrible comparison.

Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2011, 08:37 PM
A good hitting coach knows when he can help and when he can't, not a single Sox hitting coach ever attempted to tell Frank Thomas anything after Hriniak left, the same can be said on a lesser degree with Robin Ventura, because if they had problems it was mental, not mechanical. Von Joshua told me long ago that the biggest mistake a hitting coach can make is to think he can change a players mental approach, the result will never be positive.

And comparing a hitting coach to a pitching coach is a terrible comparison.

Neither Frank Thomas nor Robin Ventura are on the team, but I'd have no problem bringing back Von Joshua to replace Walker. And you didn't address the comparison of Walker's success to other hitting coaches like Hurdle, Jaramillo, or Gene Tenace; or former Sox hitting coaches like Hriniak, Joshua, Jackson, etc.

EDIT: And I know their jobs are completely different, but we can point to Cooper as someone who has a track record of "fixing" many pitchers, while Walker has one "fix" on his resume, and it happened seven years ago (Paulie 2003-2004). The point is that we have a premier pitching coach and a mediocre-to-subpar hitting coach, and it's so painfully obvious.

Sox
06-24-2011, 08:48 PM
Link (http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/why-juan-pierre/)

This article puts it perfectly.

It's stupid to keep playing Pierre considering how close the team is to .500.

Made perfect sense to me. He made some valid points especially for starting Lillibridge or Alexei in the LO Spot to give PK or TCQ some on base runners to drive home for runs. I know that I will probably catch some flak for agreeing with the author of this article. But any kind of change in the line up to produce more runs and increase the team ERA per game is alright by me. Which is badly needed to help Sox pitching.The whole final roadblock to this whole idea is Ozzie himself. Sadly, even in anyone's wildest dreams Ozzie would never buy into an idea like this much less benching JP.

Daver
06-24-2011, 08:53 PM
Neither Frank Thomas nor Robin Ventura are on the team, but I'd have no problem bringing back Von Joshua to replace Walker. And you didn't address the comparison of Walker's success to other hitting coaches like Hurdle, Jaramillo, or Gene Tenace; or former Sox hitting coaches like Hriniak, Joshua, Jackson, etc.

EDIT: And I know their jobs are completely different, but we can point to Cooper as someone who has a track record of "fixing" many pitchers, while Walker has one "fix" on his resume, and it happened seven years ago (Paulie 2003-2004). The point is that we have a premier pitching coach and a mediocre-to-subpar hitting coach, and it's so painfully obvious.

A pitcher never changes his mental approach to a batter, whereas a batter adjusts his mental approach based on the pitcher, you are comparing things that cannot be compared, much like bringing in hitting coaches from different teams, the circumstances that they work under are always different, Rudy isn't doing much for the Cubs right now is he?

Frater Perdurabo
06-24-2011, 09:00 PM
Rudy isn't doing much for the Cubs right now is he?

Rudy has a team full of youngsters right now with the second highest batting average in the NL.

EDIT: The Cubs are fourth in the majors in batting average. The Sox are 15th.

soxinem1
06-24-2011, 09:13 PM
If you really want to see a slide, compare Rios' numbers from June 16th last year to June 16th this year. They both need to be on the bench.

Taking that a step further, Rios is barely hitting .200 since last August.