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shingo10
06-14-2011, 01:14 PM
Was listening to McNeil and Speigel on 670 the Score during the lunch hour and they proposed one of the dumbest trade ideas I've ever heard.

Normally these guys have their heads on straight but this was a little out there.

Proposed Trade: White Sox give up Chris Sale, Dayan V, and Jordan Danks for Carlos Marmol.

Wow, that is just idiotic in every way. I know it's not a real possibility but how can anyone even think that's a good trade?

Oh well. Listen to talk radio and you're bound to get dumb ideas I suppose.

russ99
06-14-2011, 01:20 PM
Was listening to McNeil and Speigel on 670 the Score during the lunch hour and they proposed one of the dumbest trade ideas I've ever heard.

Normally these guys have their heads on straight but this was a little out there.

Proposed Trade: White Sox give up Chris Sale, Dayan V, and Jordan Danks for Carlos Marmol.

Wow, that is just idiotic in every way. I know it's not a real possibility but how can anyone even think that's a good trade?

Oh well. Listen to talk radio and you're bound to get dumb ideas I suppose.

Consider the source. Too funny.

kittle42
06-14-2011, 01:42 PM
If we want any kind of a star player at all in return, we are almost certainly giving up Viciedo and Sale, aren't we? I mean, this team really has nothing else to part with.

That being said, I don't think Marmol - or any closer, possibly - is quite worth it.

TDog
06-14-2011, 01:58 PM
Most trade ideas, that is, discussions of trades that teams should transact, are silly when they come from people on the outside of baseball. This has no foundation in reality.

Could the White Sox use another arm in the bullpen? Yes, of course. Do they need a closer? Having another pitcher who could close wouldn't hurt. It's doubtful Marmol would be an upgrade over Santos, although Santos has been in a slump. Marmol has 4 blown saves this year, including the celebrated outing where he incurred Zambrano wrath giving up 6 runs in one-third of an inning.

Sale is in the bullpen because the Sox have a thin bullpen. Unlike Marmol, he could have a future as a starting pitcher. Trade Sale for Marmol, and the Sox still have a thin bullpen. Trade for a closer, any reliever really, and you don't know what you are going to get. Even Heath Bell has blown at least one save and has lost a few games this year when he came into the ninth at home with the score tied.

Fortunately, GMs don't listen to the radio or scour the Internet looking for trade ideas. Sometimes they make mistakes, but they have a better idea of what they're doing. I seriously don't expect to see Sale or Viciedo involved in a trade that only brought back bullpen help.

MeteorsSox4367
06-14-2011, 01:59 PM
There's no way the Sox should trade Chris Sale, especially for Marmol.

FielderJones
06-14-2011, 02:26 PM
Consider the source. Too funny.

Aren't those all Flubbie fans?

Why do we want another save-blower in the pen?

Moses_Scurry
06-14-2011, 03:00 PM
When was the last time the Sox made a meaningful trade with the cubs? Sosa for Bell? I don't consider the Aardsma for Cotts trade very meaningful. That's 18 years! While I wouldn't mind getting Marmol, I wouldn't give up that much for him.

asindc
06-14-2011, 03:02 PM
When was the last time the Sox made a meaningful trade with the cubs? Sosa for Bell? I don't consider the Aardsma for Cotts trade very meaningful. That's 18 years! While I wouldn't mind getting Marmol, I wouldn't give up that much for him.

Karchner for Garland.

Moses_Scurry
06-14-2011, 06:55 PM
Karchner for Garland.

Even that was 12 years ago. The Sox seem to view the cubs more as rivals now. They don't help each other out as much as they used to.

DSpivack
06-14-2011, 07:50 PM
Even that was 12 years ago. The Sox seem to view the cubs more as rivals now. They don't help each other out as much as they used to.

I doubt that's really it, a team in the opposite league still isn't a true rival.

harwar
06-15-2011, 10:33 AM
Wow, that is just idiotic in every way. I know it's not a real possibility but how can anyone even think that's a good trade?
Oh well. Listen to talk radio and you're bound to get dumb ideas I suppose.

which is why i only listen to the radio when the White Sox games are on the air ..

cws05champ
06-15-2011, 12:02 PM
I doubt that's really it, a team in the opposite league still isn't a true rival.

No, but they fight for the baseball attention and fan dollars in the city. Therefore the Sox are not going to help the Cubs and the Cubs won't help the Sox in anyway because they are a rival in that sense.

TDog
06-15-2011, 12:34 PM
I doubt that's really it, a team in the opposite league still isn't a true rival.

Not in the Cubs-Cardinals sense, but they are economic rivals for market share in Chicagoland, which makes them rivals in business and truer rivals than most teams considered rivals by fans.

DSpivack
06-15-2011, 01:44 PM
No, but they fight for the baseball attention and fan dollars in the city. Therefore the Sox are not going to help the Cubs and the Cubs won't help the Sox in anyway because they are a rival in that sense.

Not in the Cubs-Cardinals sense, but they are economic rivals for market share in Chicagoland, which makes them rivals in business and truer rivals than most teams considered rivals by fans.

I agree with that, but I don't think KW would turn down a trade improving the team because he would be dealing with the Cubs, as opposed to teams not trading within their division.

Moses_Scurry
06-15-2011, 01:48 PM
Uncle Jerry traded away a player who almost immediately became a Chicago icon (nationally and among cub fans). It could be argued that the arrival of Sosa significantly propelled the cubs to the stereotypes that are used today, such as selling out even during crappy years and not caring about the actual game, as much if not moreso than the other issues that have been chronicled here ad nauseum (sportsvision, Harry Caray, 1984, etc). Sosa is probably solely responsible for a million tickets sold in some of those really bad cub seasons like '99, '00, and '02. Meanwhile, the Sox had three consecutive terrible years in '97, '98, and '99 with one superstar that had declining power numbers and was complaining about his contract and another superstar that was universally hated in similar fashion to LeBron James now. While the return they got for Sosa had a decent year in '92 and contributed to a divisional championship in '93, he was a sulking no-show in the playoffs and out of baseball afterwards. While we all hate Sosa intensely and offer numerous reasons why we would never have wanted him on the team, I would be willing to bet that Reinsdorf wishes he had a mulligan on that one.

While the cubbie love and Sox apathy was already in place before the Sosa-for-Bell trade, it is pretty clear that the gap was widened even moreso and that the Sox were partially responsible for significant enhancement of the cub revenue. Since that trade, there have only been two trades between the teams of any significance: the aforementioned Karchner for Garland trade (a relief pitcher for a single A prospect) and Aardsma for Cotts (two relief pitchers). In both cases, it was pretty reasonable to assume that neither player would do for their new team anything close to what Sosa did for the cubs. In other words, Reinsdorf is not going to get fooled again.

I don't think it is a coincidence.

Moses_Scurry
06-15-2011, 01:51 PM
I agree with that, but I don't think KW would turn down a trade improving the team because he would be dealing with the Cubs, as opposed to teams not trading within their division.

It's not just KW turning down the trade. I don't think EITHER team is willing to help the other out unless they are getting significant help in return. You may see an Aardsma for Cotts again if both teams think it will help them. But you will not be seeing any blockbusters between the two.

TDog
06-15-2011, 02:04 PM
I agree with that, but I don't think KW would turn down a trade improving the team because he would be dealing with the Cubs, as opposed to teams not trading within their division.

I think it's more a matter of the White Sox and Cubs not talking. Secondarily it would be the White Sox likely having no interest in giving up anything approaching the value discussed in this thread for Marmol.

russ99
06-15-2011, 03:19 PM
Uncle Jerry traded away a player who almost immediately became a Chicago icon (nationally and among cub fans). It could be argued that the arrival of Sosa significantly propelled the cubs to the stereotypes that are used today, such as selling out even during crappy years and not caring about the actual game, as much if not moreso than the other issues that have been chronicled here ad nauseum (sportsvision, Harry Caray, 1984, etc). Sosa is probably solely responsible for a million tickets sold in some of those really bad cub seasons like '99, '00, and '02. Meanwhile, the Sox had three consecutive terrible years in '97, '98, and '99 with one superstar that had declining power numbers and was complaining about his contract and another superstar that was universally hated in similar fashion to LeBron James now. While the return they got for Sosa had a decent year in '92 and contributed to a divisional championship in '93, he was a sulking no-show in the playoffs and out of baseball afterwards. While we all hate Sosa intensely and offer numerous reasons why we would never have wanted him on the team, I would be willing to bet that Reinsdorf wishes he had a mulligan on that one.

While the cubbie love and Sox apathy was already in place before the Sosa-for-Bell trade, it is pretty clear that the gap was widened even moreso and that the Sox were partially responsible for significant enhancement of the cub revenue. Since that trade, there have only been two trades between the teams of any significance: the aforementioned Karchner for Garland trade (a relief pitcher for a single A prospect) and Aardsma for Cotts (two relief pitchers). In both cases, it was pretty reasonable to assume that neither player would do for their new team anything close to what Sosa did for the cubs. In other words, Reinsdorf is not going to get fooled again.

I don't think it is a coincidence.

Very well put.

There's something else at work in that deal, too. Jerry was talked into trading his favorite player (Baines) for essentially Sosa, leading to Harold getting far less plate appearances with Texas and Baltimore which may have cost him a place in the Hall of Fame.

So you could say Jerry got double-burned in that deal, which could make him more hesitant.

But I still think if Kenny came to him with a deal that made sense for the ballclub in the future, he'd not hesitate to deal with the Cubs.

Tragg
06-15-2011, 05:41 PM
This reminds me of the trade idea of a couple of radio sages in the early 2000s who suggested the Sox trade Magglio (in his prime) and a few other players for Sosa.
The last thing the Sox need to do is trade young pitching.

Moses_Scurry
06-15-2011, 05:48 PM
Very well put.

There's something else at work in that deal, too. Jerry was talked into trading his favorite player (Baines) for essentially Sosa, leading to Harold getting far less plate appearances with Texas and Baltimore which may have cost him a place in the Hall of Fame.

So you could say Jerry got double-burned in that deal, which could make him more hesitant.

But I still think if Kenny came to him with a deal that made sense for the ballclub in the future, he'd not hesitate to deal with the Cubs.

I'm sure he wouldn't hesitate, but the cubs don't want to get burned either. They're not trading a big player to the Sox unless they get a big return.