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View Full Version : Interesting article: Williams thinks Viciedo is major-league ready


MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-14-2011, 01:34 PM
http://chicago.whitesox.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20110613&content_id=20428398&vkey=news_cws&c_id=cws

The only problem is, what would you do with Ozzie's favorite toy in Pierre?

We cannot say that Viciedo would do any worse than Pierre defensively now seeing Pierre's struggles, but the Sox would need a leadoff hitter, and they really don't have a leadoff type on the team right now.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 01:39 PM
and they really don't have a leadoff type on the team right now.

http://blogs.southtownstar.com/whitesox/alexei_ramirez_080_1001277c.jpg

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-14-2011, 01:41 PM
http://blogs.southtownstar.com/whitesox/alexei_ramirez_080_1001277c.jpg

Shh....you'll anger the "I <3 OBP" crowd.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 01:43 PM
Shh....you'll anger the "I <3 OBP" crowd.

By suggesting the non-power hitter with the highest OBP on the team should lead off?

Either way, the problem is the Sox don't have two top-of-the order guys. Ideally, either Beckham or Rios would look good batting 2nd behind Alexei, but they are both horribly awful. If those two bums could actually earn their paycheck, I think the best Sox line-up would look something like this:

SS Alexei
2B Bacon
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH Dunn
CF Rios
C Pierzynski
3B Morel
LF Pierre

TomBradley72
06-14-2011, 01:47 PM
Based on KW's comments- it looks like a lock that the 2012 Opening Day outfield will be Quentin/Rios/Viciedo- so now it's just a matter of deciding if you implement that sooner. If we had a legitimate alternative at the lead off spot- I think they would make that move very soon.

IMHO- I'd still do it right away- a less than ideal lead off hitter is offset by a dramatic upgrade in the overall offense.

kittle42
06-14-2011, 01:49 PM
Based on KW's comments- it looks like a lock that the 2012 Opening Day outfield will be Quentin/Rios/Viciedo

Man, I wish Pierre could catch a ball. That defensive alignment makes one yearn for a second DH.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-14-2011, 01:49 PM
By suggesting the non-power hitter with the highest OBP on the team should lead off?

Either way, the problem is the Sox don't have two top-of-the order guys. Ideally, either Beckham or Rios would look good batting 2nd behind Alexei, but they are both horribly awful. If those two bums could actually earn their paycheck, I think the best Sox line-up would look something like this:

SS Alexei
2B Bacon
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH Dunn
CF Rios
C Pierzynski
3B Morel
LF Pierre

I'm just going by past opinion on here that no one wanted Alexei to lead off because he doesn't get on enough and doesn't take enough walks.

I'd make one fantasy adjustment to your lineup:

Switch Pierre with Viciedo, and put him 7th and move everyone else below him down one. If Rios can ever revert to his "decent" self, he can get on and Viciedo can try to drive him in.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
06-14-2011, 01:50 PM
Man, I wish Pierre could catch a ball. That defensive alignment makes one yearn for a second DH.

Our current one doesn't?

russ99
06-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Man, I wish Pierre could catch a ball. That defensive alignment makes one yearn for a second DH.

Will the hyperbole ever stop?

Juan has 5 errors in 140 chances. Many of them difficult catches that most of the outfielders on the roster would have no chance to even get to.

But, yeah. He can't "catch a ball"... :scratch:

KMcMahon817
06-14-2011, 02:21 PM
Will the hyperbole ever stop?

Juan has 5 errors in 140 chances. Many of them difficult catches that most of the outfielders on the roster would have no chance to even get to.

But, yeah. He can't "catch a ball"... :scratch:

I like Pierre now...and I loved Pierre last year. But let's be real here...Pierre has been atrocious in the field all year. If you can't agree with that, well...you haven't watched the games too closely.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 02:30 PM
Juan has 5 errors in 140 chances. Many of them difficult catches that most of the outfielders on the roster would have no chance to even get to.


The majority of Pierre's "difficult" catches are only difficult because he makes them that way by taking bad routes or his general badness in the field.

kittle42
06-14-2011, 02:47 PM
The majority of Pierre's "difficult" catches are only difficult because he makes them that way by taking bad routes or his general badness in the field.

Thank you - guy runs around so badly out there that even homer-of-all-homers Hawk Harrelson makes light of it. I mean, if Hawk is running someone on the Sox down, you *know* they have some serious playing issues.

That being said, russ, sorry for the hyperbole.

Let me rephrase: I wish Pierre wasn't such a poor defensive player, because that defensive alignment makes one yearn for a second DH.

And, implicit in that remark is that I at least think Pierre is better defensively than Viciedo, so there's a backhanded compliment!

DAllen15
06-14-2011, 03:21 PM
Could this be Kenny's way of trying to pump his value for a potential trade?

TheOldRoman
06-14-2011, 03:42 PM
By suggesting the non-power hitter with the highest OBP on the team should lead off?

Either way, the problem is the Sox don't have two top-of-the order guys. Ideally, either Beckham or Rios would look good batting 2nd behind Alexei, but they are both horribly awful. If those two bums could actually earn their paycheck, I think the best Sox line-up would look something like this:

SS Alexei
2B Bacon
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH Dunn
CF Rios
C Pierzynski
3B Morel
LF PierreSwing and a miss. He is hitting .294/.385/.426 over the last 28 games. Just like everyone else on the team, Beckham has become a slow starter, but he has really picked it up over the last month.

voodoochile
06-14-2011, 03:47 PM
Down the road you might actually see Alexei leading off and Morel batting second as he has good bat control and hits the ball to the right side well. However I doubt Ozzie would allow 4 RHH back to back at the top of the lineup and obviously it would depend on if Beckham can achieve the consistency we all hope he does.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 03:49 PM
Swing and a miss. He is hitting .294/.385/.426 over the last 28 games. Just like everyone else on the team, Beckham has become a slow starter, but he has really picked it up over the last month.

I will happily redact my comment when Gordon Beckham can get that OPS above guys like AJ Pierzynski and Omar Vizquel. Until then? Sucks ass.

DirtySox
06-14-2011, 03:52 PM
Juan Pierre is garbage and should go away as I posted in the same thread in the minors forum. The only player in the majors that has contributed less than him this year is Chone Figgins. He's just awful. Let the Dayan era begin.

TheOldRoman
06-14-2011, 04:00 PM
I will happily redact my comment when Gordon Beckham can get that OPS above guys like AJ Pierzynski and Omar Vizquel. Until then? Sucks ass.His OPS is .811 over the last 28 games. That wouldn't qualify as "sucks ass" in my book, but you can classify him any way you want.

TDog
06-14-2011, 04:11 PM
I'm just going by past opinion on here that no one wanted Alexei to lead off because he doesn't get on enough and doesn't take enough walks.

I'd make one fantasy adjustment to your lineup:

Switch Pierre with Viciedo, and put him 7th and move everyone else below him down one. If Rios can ever revert to his "decent" self, he can get on and Viciedo can try to drive him in.

Ramirez is taking more walks this season. He has two less walks than he too all last season and more than half of his total for two years ago, when it looked like pitchers He has more walks than Pierre. He has more hits, too. I have posted in the past that I wouldn't mind Ramirez leading off. I actually like the idea.

I have thought he is an ideal No. 2 hitter behind a speedy leadoff man who reaches base because he is such a good fastball hitter. It hasn't worked out that way, though. The lead-off man in an AL batting order gets a lot of RBI chances, and Ramirez is a good hitter with runners in scoring position. He seems to be a better hitter with men on base than with the bases empty.

Guillen seems to want Beckham batting second, but he is going to have to work harder at correcting the hitch in his swing that pitchers started exploiting late in his rookie season. You can tell Beckham has been working on it because it isn't quite the same hitch he had when he first came up. It prevents him from hitting good fast balls consistently with authority, which is why I think his batting average plummeted once he was moved to the No. 2 spot in the order, a place where you are more likely to get a lot of fastballs. Rios developed the same problem this year, and he looks closer to working it out.

As for bringing up Viciedo, I had hoped, knowing it was in vain, that the Sox would bring up Viciedo when Peavy went on the DL. I haven't seen him since last summer, but he could develop into a very solid hitter.

DirtySox
06-14-2011, 04:12 PM
His OPS is .811 over the last 28 games. That wouldn't qualify as "sucks ass" in my book, but you can classify him any way you want.

I don't know what to think about Gordon anymore. He's so streaky. He also goes through these funks where the load phase of his swing is so long, that he has no chance on fastballs. It frustrates the hell out of me.

TheOldRoman
06-14-2011, 04:26 PM
I don't know what to think about Gordon anymore. He's so streaky. He also goes through these funks where the load phase of his swing is so long, that he has no chance on fastballs. It frustrates the hell out of me.Same here, but his streakiness is directly correlated to that of the rest of the team. He has slumped in August into early September, too - when the entire team slumps. His slumps seem to be worse than the other players, however. Still, there is something fundamentally wrong with the teachings or hitting philosophy of the organization that causes 7 or 8 position players to go into 2 seperate month long slumps each year. Either that or someone put a spell on the Sox.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 04:27 PM
His OPS is .811 over the last 28 games. That wouldn't qualify as "sucks ass" in my book, but you can classify him any way you want.

And I can cherry pick a bigger chunk of the season when he was arguably the worst hitter in this entire team of ****ty hitters.

Daver
06-14-2011, 04:35 PM
Based on KW's comments- it looks like a lock that the 2012 Opening Day outfield will be Quentin/Rios/Viciedo

That will be the worst defensive outfield in all of MLB.

TheOldRoman
06-14-2011, 04:46 PM
And I can cherry pick a bigger chunk of the season when he was arguably the worst hitter in this entire team of ****ty hitters.And yet, he is a very talented player who is performing like a good player right now. So, while he struggled earlier (and wasn't helped by being in a lineup where they guy in front of him and behind him are also struggling), he isn't now. A 28 game stretch isn't cherry-picking, it is showing that he has been performing since his horrible start.

Foulke You
06-14-2011, 04:53 PM
That will be the worst defensive outfield in all of MLB.
At least on par with the badness of the Cards having Holliday in LF and Berkman in RF.

TheOldRoman
06-14-2011, 05:13 PM
At least on par with the badness of the Cards having Holliday in LF and Berkman in RF.It wouldn't be even close to as bad as St. Louis' outfield. Minnesota also has a worse outfield defense, especially when Cuddyer at 1B and Kubel is in RF.

Foulke You
06-14-2011, 06:48 PM
It wouldn't be even close to as bad as St. Louis' outfield. Minnesota also has a worse outfield defense, especially when Cuddyer at 1B and Kubel is in RF.
Yeah, I have to agree with you. Quentin can run better than Berkman and catches most balls that he can track down. Q has trouble with that whole cutoff man concept though.:tongue: I haven't seen enough of Viciedo in LF to really know what he can do out there.

Daver
06-14-2011, 09:56 PM
Yeah, I have to agree with you. Quentin can run better than Berkman and catches most balls that he can track down. Q has trouble with that whole cutoff man concept though.:tongue: I haven't seen enough of Viciedo in LF to really know what he can do out there.

There is alot more to playing outfield than catching flyballs.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 10:29 PM
There is alot more to playing outfield than catching flyballs.

Yeah, sometimes, you have to field grounders, too.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-14-2011, 10:45 PM
By suggesting the non-power hitter with the highest OBP on the team should lead off?

Either way, the problem is the Sox don't have two top-of-the order guys. Ideally, either Beckham or Rios would look good batting 2nd behind Alexei, but they are both horribly awful. If those two bums could actually earn their paycheck, I think the best Sox line-up would look something like this:

SS Alexei
2B Bacon
RF Quentin
1B Konerko
DH Dunn
CF Rios
C Pierzynski
3B Morel
LF Pierre

68 games into the season, one would think that the manager would have figured this out. This lineup is leaps and bounds better than what was posted on opening day.

doublem23
06-14-2011, 10:55 PM
68 games into the season, one would think that the manager would have figured this out. This lineup is leaps and bounds better than what was posted on opening day.

I don't know, I'm not sold on Beckham hitting that high, I just got home and I don't feel like looking up splits for him, but I feel like he never hits at #2 but always seems to come around when he's dropped in the order. Maybe one day he'll figure it out.

My hypothetical lineup relied heavily on the assumption that Beckham and Rios could not hit like gigantic bags of ****. Not gonna hold my breath.

mzh
06-14-2011, 11:05 PM
I don't know, I'm not sold on Beckham hitting that high, I just got home and I don't feel like looking up splits for him, but I feel like he never hits at #2 but always seems to come around when he's dropped in the order. Maybe one day he'll figure it out.

My hypothetical lineup relied heavily on the assumption that Beckham and Rios could not hit like gigantic bags of ****. Not gonna hold my breath.
This is true. In 100+ games batting second, his line is .226/12/48. In 150 games batting eighth or ninth, he's hit ~.285/13/76. I am a staunch supporter of Ozzie, but why he's tried to plug him there 2 years in a row without success confused me.

Tragg
06-14-2011, 11:09 PM
Anyone should (admittedly should) hit better up in the order with Quentin/Konerko protection. I posted on another thread that I'd consider Rios. I know he's horrible this year, but he'll do better up top, he has some speed that Guillen demands, and maybe, with some spotlight, it will shake him up and he'll take it seriously.

Daver
06-14-2011, 11:41 PM
Yeah, sometimes, you have to field grounders, too.


It has become obvious that most of the posters here opinion on what outfield defense is and what mine is far different, numbers has replaced the ability to back up infielders and actually know what to do when an errant throw makes it's way out of the infield, because there is no stat for that, and when it comes right down to offense is all that matters.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-15-2011, 12:53 AM
I don't know, I'm not sold on Beckham hitting that high, I just got home and I don't feel like looking up splits for him, but I feel like he never hits at #2 but always seems to come around when he's dropped in the order. Maybe one day he'll figure it out.

My hypothetical lineup relied heavily on the assumption that Beckham and Rios could not hit like gigantic bags of ****. Not gonna hold my breath.

My first thought was Rios second but I decided against nitpicking that because I really like the general idea of your lineup. I think Pierre would cease to be "unproductive leadoff hitter" and become "pesky ninth hitter with great speed" if that makes any sense. I also think his bunting would be more appropriate from the bottom of the lineup. He would be so much more palatable down there.

guillensdisciple
06-15-2011, 12:54 PM
Could this be Kenny's way of trying to pump his value for a potential trade?

I hope not, Dayan has massive potential.

tsoxman
06-15-2011, 01:34 PM
Will the hyperbole ever stop?

Juan has 5 errors in 140 chances. Many of them difficult catches that most of the outfielders on the roster would have no chance to even get to.

But, yeah. He can't "catch a ball"... :scratch:
Can you please reiterate what you just said, but this time, please use teal or try not to laugh as you type.

Juan Pierre's defense this year, regardless of the metrics that are used, has been nothing short of awful (http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=lf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=y&type=1&season=2011&month=0&season1=2011&ind=0). Helps to do a little research, Russ.

SI1020
06-15-2011, 01:56 PM
It has become obvious that most of the posters here opinion on what outfield defense is and what mine is far different, numbers has replaced the ability to back up infielders and actually know what to do when an errant throw makes it's way out of the infield, because there is no stat for that, and when it comes right down to offense is all that matters. The proper positioning is important too. I could mention a few more things, but I agree with you that catching the ball and not letting singles get past you is just the beginning of good outfield defense.

doublem23
06-15-2011, 02:02 PM
It has become obvious that most of the posters here opinion on what outfield defense is and what mine is far different, numbers has replaced the ability to back up infielders and actually know what to do when an errant throw makes it's way out of the infield, because there is no stat for that, and when it comes right down to offense is all that matters.

So, and please correct me if I'm wrong, your point is that its more important that OF be able to perform a very tiny part of the game, maybe a task they will have to do (at most) 2-3 times per month, over something they have to do 3-4 times per game.

I mean, I agree with you that there's more to OF defense than catching balls and that statistics do not tell the whole story of defense, but really, especially these corner OF spots, defense is unimportant enough that you can hide an average defender there for a big bat.

Until someone figures out how to win a 0-0 game, there's always going to be a focus on offense.

miker
06-15-2011, 02:25 PM
I mean, I agree with you that there's more to OF defense than catching balls and that statistics do not tell the whole story of defense, but really, especially these corner OF spots, defense is unimportant enough that you can hide an average defender there for a big bat.

Carlos Lee, Manny Ramirez, Kevin Mitchell, Lonnie Smith...

It's mostly trying to minimize the damage they can do while they're out there.

Daver
06-15-2011, 02:55 PM
So, and please correct me if I'm wrong, your point is that its more important that OF be able to perform a very tiny part of the game, maybe a task they will have to do (at most) 2-3 times per month, over something they have to do 3-4 times per game.


No, I'm saying a team that is struggling to score runs is in no position to give away outs, or make multi base mistakes that they can't overcome offensively. A team with a well balanced offense can easily overcome a marginal fielder, the White Sox are not this team at this time.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-15-2011, 03:39 PM
No, I'm saying a team that is struggling to score runs is in no position to give away outs, or make multi base mistakes that they can't overcome offensively. A team with a well balanced offense can easily overcome a marginal fielder, the White Sox are not this team at this time.

How often do you think errant throws from one infielder to another go into the outfield?

I'm astonished that you're so concerned about backing up the occasional throw around the infield while having no qualms about regularly giving up 90 feet to base runners.

It's tough to have a well balanced offense when you get zero offensive production from the left fielder.

Hitmen77
06-16-2011, 03:03 PM
I'd love to see Viciedo given a shot in our lineup soon. But I don't see it happening. Ozzie isn't going to bench Pierre and plus I don't know who the Sox would send down to make room for Dayan.