PDA

View Full Version : More Logical Proof to Bench Pierre


sox230
06-13-2011, 02:52 PM
From ESPN's latest power rankings:

"Juan Pierre has been a dreadful hitter (75 OPS+ entering Monday) and base stealer (his nine CS lead the majors), yet he has led off in 65 of their first 68 games and leads the AL in plate appearances. -- Bill Parker: The Platoon Advantage (http://www.platoonadvantage.com/)"

Now I realize that most people agree with me that there is literally NO risk in trying Lillibridge at leadoff for a little bit. I believe that other posters have pointed out how he is better in atleast every single category imaginable.

But what really pissed me off is both Mark Gonzalez and Chris "I will defend the Sox until I die" Rongey. They both claimed it's better to start Pierre because of his skill set and potential based off of history.

1) How do we even know what Lillbridge's skill set is if he doesn't play consistently?

2) How can you conclude somebody has promise for the future based on history? A little contradicting?

3) Ozzie has said that Lillibridge is a utility player and if he needs to start regularly then something is wrong. Well Oz, SOMETHING IS WRONG: Juan Pierre! Don't be in denial!

Thank you for letting me vent. I feel a lot better.

MARTINMVP
06-13-2011, 02:56 PM
Considering that Rongey typically defends Pierre, while Dan Bernstein (on the same station) absolutely loves to crucify Pierre, I would love to see the two of them go at it on the air about it.

spawn
06-13-2011, 03:21 PM
Good Lord. Why do I sense a looming Brian Anderson/ DeWayne Wise battle looming on this board featuring Pierre/Lillibridge? Lillibrdige is one long slump from being disliked.....again. It wasn't too long ago when people were wondering why the Sox were wasting a roster spot on him. Now he needs to start everyday. :rolleyes:

Lip Man 1
06-13-2011, 03:28 PM
Spawn:

Can't speak for anybody else but right now he's hotter and playing better than Juan. You ride the horse until he can't go anymore.

Sitting Pierre for three or four games in a row might help him mentally and give everyone a little better sense if Lillibridge can actually play.

Look what harm can it do? Could he play worse than Juan for three or four games? Probably not, Brent has shown he can at least catch the ball in the outfield.

Lip

kittle42
06-13-2011, 03:33 PM
Lillibrdige is one long slump from being disliked.....again. It wasn't too long ago when people were wondering why the Sox were wasting a roster spot on him. Now he needs to start everyday. :rolleyes:

I am one of those who bashes the Sox for playing Pierre as much as they do, but I completely agree that Lillibridge is NOT an everyday player. Several people, including Farmer and DJ (who are not afraid to bash the Sox' play or decisions), said they think Lillibridge is one of these "effective when underexposed" guys, and I can see that.

Pierre is not the LF answer. Lillibridge is not an everyday answer. There is probably no one in the organization who is.

So this ain't gonna end anytime soon.

palehozenychicty
06-13-2011, 03:39 PM
I am one of those who bashes the Sox for playing Pierre as much as they do, but I completely agree that Lillibridge is NOT an everyday player. Several people, including Farmer and DJ (who are not afraid to bash the Sox' play or decisions), said they think Lillibridge is one of these "effective when underexposed" guys, and I can see that.

Pierre is not the LF answer. Lillibridge is not an everyday answer. There is probably no one in the organization who is.

So this ain't gonna end anytime soon.

I think circle gets the square here.

LITTLE NELL
06-13-2011, 03:40 PM
I would love to see Lillibridge in the lineup everyday but I just don't think he is lead-off material. Like it or not but Pierre is the only true lead-off guy we have. My ideal outfield would be TCQ in LF, Lilibridge in CF and Rios in RF but who leads off?

eriqjaffe
06-13-2011, 03:45 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

asindc
06-13-2011, 03:46 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

This is the kind of logic this discussion needs.

doublem23
06-13-2011, 03:49 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

And yet he still makes less outs than Pierre

JorgeFabregas
06-13-2011, 03:53 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.
He's getting on base at a good clip. If he's working counts, what's the big deal about a leadoff hitter striking out? In fact, you could make the case that striking out matters for the leadoff hitter least of all because they will likely have the fewest RBI opportunities. And if no one is on base, then an out is an out.

tstrike2000
06-13-2011, 04:05 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

But if his OBP is at or higher than .320, he can bunt in ANY situation, he can catch a simple pop-up, can steal an occasional base, and hit for some power, he's already ahead of Pierre.

spawn
06-13-2011, 04:07 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

This is the kind of logic this discussion needs.

Yep. People here would wonder why Ozzie was running him out there everyday instead of ___________ (the blank is whichever bench player is hot at that moment). I'm glad that Lillibridge is playing as well as he has been. But I think it's a little pre-mature to believe he should play everyday. I think he's being utilized as he should be: a spot starter and late inning defensive replacement. Not saying I think Pierre should be out there everyday either, but IMO Lillibridge isn't the answer.

Crestani
06-13-2011, 04:09 PM
good lord. Why do i sense a looming brian anderson/ dewayne wise battle looming on this board featuring pierre/lillibridge? Lillibrdige is one long slump from being disliked.....again. It wasn't too long ago when people were wondering why the sox were wasting a roster spot on him. Now he needs to start everyday. :rolleyes:



potw...!!!

kittle42
06-13-2011, 04:10 PM
Yep. People here would wonder why Ozzie was running him out there everyday instead of ___________ (the blank is whichever bench player is hot at that moment). I'm glad that Lillibridge is playing as well as he has been. But I think it's a little pre-mature to believe he should play everyday. I think he's being utilized as he should be: a spot startero and late inning defensive replacement. Not saying I think Pierre should be out there everyday either, but IMO Lillibridge isn't the answer.

To pile on a little more, even his AAA stats aren't all that impressive when it comes to OBP and strikeout ratio.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lillib001bre

He's playing over his head now, and I agree the Sox should ride it while it's hot, but if you really look at it, it's kinda cooled already.

Then again, there are people here who actually think Donny Lucy could be a major-league starting catcher, so what do I know?

eriqjaffe
06-13-2011, 04:18 PM
But if his OBP is at or higher than .320, he can bunt in ANY situation, he can catch a simple pop-up, can steal an occasional base, and hit for some power, he's already ahead of Pierre.Lillibridge's career OBP, even with his numbers from this year, is .286. Maybe he's turned the corner and is finally reaching his potential - I really hope it's not an illusion.

But it's a small sample size, and he needs to be able to sustain it.

That being said, I'd have no problem with him getting more playing time to see if he can sustain it.

asindc
06-13-2011, 04:18 PM
He's getting on base at a good clip. If he's working counts, what's the big deal about a leadoff hitter striking out? In fact, you could make the case that striking out matters for the leadoff hitter least of all because they will likely have the fewest RBI opportunities. And if no one is on base, then an out is an out.

You don't want your leadoff hitter striking out much because it means that many fewer chances to put pressure on the defense with speed. Prime recent example: Juan's 9th inning against Toronto on May 26.

SI1020
06-13-2011, 04:19 PM
Pierre is not the LF answer. Lillibridge is not an everyday answer. There is probably no one in the organization who is.

So this ain't gonna end anytime soon. Amen to that.

Foulke You
06-13-2011, 04:36 PM
To pile on a little more, even his AAA stats aren't all that impressive when it comes to OBP and strikeout ratio.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=lillib001bre

He's playing over his head now, and I agree the Sox should ride it while it's hot, but if you really look at it, it's kinda cooled already.

Then again, there are people here who actually think Donny Lucy could be a major-league starting catcher, so what do I know?
Historical stats for Lillibridge may not apply anymore given his new compact swing and aproach at the plate. The old Lillibridge had a big loopy swing with a hole large enough to drive a Buick through. He has made an adjustment this year to his swing and he is very short and quick through the zone. He still has trouble handling a breaking ball but then again, so do a lot of MLB hitters. We really have no idea what we'll get from Lillibridge every day but Ozzie's man-crush on Pierre prevents us from ever finding out.

TomBradley72
06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Probably not, Brent has shown he can at least catch the ball in the outfield.

Lip

And throw it.

Daver
06-13-2011, 04:50 PM
Then again, there are people here who actually think Donny Lucy could be a major-league starting catcher, so what do I know?

He could be as long as you can accept zero offensive output outside the occasional HBP.

kufram
06-13-2011, 05:06 PM
I think Lillibridge has been effective because of the way he is being used not in spite of it. Long may it last. I'm hopeful that 6 weeks from now we will have won a bunch of games because Dunn has hit a bunch of bombs, Rios has found the gaps, and Pierre has recovered at least some of his form as a leadoff hitter. The key word here is team... everyone has a part to play.

Tragg
06-13-2011, 05:07 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

Leadoff hitter striking out is no biggie. Trying to steal (other than the occasional) and playing Guillen clown-ball in front of Carlos Quentin has got to stop.
I don't know that Lilibridge's a leadoff hitter...really don't have one and haven't for a while (Pods had his moments). And Spawn is probably right - Lilibridge is probably 1 slump away. But, until then...

FielderJones
06-13-2011, 05:21 PM
And Spawn is probably right - Lilibridge is probably 1 slump away. But, until then...

So, you take the short-term view -- expose Lillibridge to the league every day until they figure him out some time late June. Then July, August, and September as he is slumping down to .220, join the "bench Lillibridge" voices.

The alternative, start him twice a week, bring him in as a late inning defensive replacement, has a better chance of making him useful into October.

kittle42
06-13-2011, 05:33 PM
So, you take the short-term view -- expose Lillibridge to the league every day until they figure him out some time late June. Then July, August, and September as he is slumping down to .220, join the "bench Lillibridge" voices.

The alternative, start him twice a week, bring him in as a late inning defensive replacement, has a better chance of making him useful into October.

Quiet! You'll upset the knee-jerkers.

1989
06-13-2011, 05:37 PM
When you bring defense into the equation, it's not even close.

Starting Lillibridge over Pierre is a no brainer at this point.

Here is an interesting perspective though on how often Lillibridge should be playing.

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/the-correct-way-to-use-brent-lillibridge/

Tragg
06-13-2011, 05:38 PM
So, you take the short-term view -- expose Lillibridge to the league every day until they figure him out some time late June. Then July, August, and September as he is slumping down to .220, join the "bench Lillibridge" voices.

The alternative, start him twice a week, bring him in as a late inning defensive replacement, has a better chance of making him useful into October.

That's a good point; although Lilibridge has "worn down" in mere utility duty in most prior years as well. But what's the alternative? Pierre is terrible. Pierre is deep into the backside of his career, but is a veteran with a good attitude, something this bench staff salivates over.

TomBradley72
06-13-2011, 05:38 PM
I'd go with Quentin/Rios/Viciedo, Lillibridge as late inning replacement, spot starter- let go of either Teahen or Pierre- preferably Teahen.

Pierre is gone at the end of the year anyway- not sure if we need alot more time to see that Viciedo will have more impact on our overall offense.

With Lillibridge/Pierre/Vizquel on the bench- I don't see a need for Teahen on the roster.

Tragg
06-13-2011, 05:42 PM
I'd go with Quentin/Rios/Viciedo, Lillibridge as late inning replacement, spot starter- let go of either Teahen or Pierre- preferably Teahen.

Pierre is gone at the end of the year anyway- not sure if we need alot more time to see that Viciedo will have more impact on our overall offense.

With Lillibridge/Pierre/Vizquel on the bench- I don't see a need for Teahen on the roster.

I like it...but I'd lean Teahen over Pierre. Teahen might be able to hit a little, and, if he does, he's probably tradeable in the offseason if we pay half his salary. Pierre's contract is finished this year.

PalehosePlanet
06-13-2011, 06:41 PM
Lillibridge is on a pace to strike out 147 times over 600 plate appearances. I can only imagine the complaining about the leadoff hitter whiffing nearly as much as Dunn.

And over 600 plate appearances he's on a pace to hit 45 HR's.

That's why on-pace stats projections are worthless. Tuffy Rhodes was once on pace to hit 486 HR's.

Bottom line: Lillibridge is playing much better than Juan and should at the very least be platooning with Pierre.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Last year Pierre went up to the plate 734 times, stole 68 bases and scored only 96 runs despite hitting in front of (last year's) Rios and Konerko. He only scored 96 runs because he: A) got caught stealing a lot (18 times) B) didn't get on base at an exceptional rate (.341) and C) never drove himself in (1 HR).

My point is that all those stolen bases didn't result in all that many more runs (if any) than random player batting leadoff (OC scored 93 runs in '08). Even if he were to completely return to last year's form the upside isn't there. It's even more limited by the fact that he is now getting caught at a greater rate.

Whether Lillibridge is the solution remains to be seen but LF is clearly a hole. If the White Sox insist on a Pierre type player, they should see what Houston wants for free agent to be Michael Bourn who is also considered an outstanding defender.

sunofgold
06-13-2011, 09:41 PM
Pierre is still a good clutch hitter. I like Lillibridge too. He should be getting more starting time. But, you can give Lillibridge more playing in LF and CF. I have confidence in both of them.

Right now we need Rios and Dunn to produce more RBIs. Rios only has 15 rbis. that is horrible. .140 with RISP ... .091 with RISP and 2 outs.

Mohoney
06-13-2011, 10:32 PM
For right now, it probably should be a platoon of sorts with 3 guys rotating in the 2 spots (Pierre, Lillibridge, Rios).

I think the situation is a little more complicated than simply benching Pierre outright to fix everything.

BainesHOF
06-14-2011, 12:16 AM
Are some of you people on drugs? Or do you not watch the games? Pierre has been awful this season. He's continues to screw up in left field. He's lost speed on the bases that he's not getting back. He's one reason why we've been one of the most disappointing teams in baseball.

While Lillibridge may not be an everyday player, he's better than Pierre.

And don't make the mistake of selling Lillibridge short, even though our incompetent manager does. How can somebody not like Lillibridge's handful of great catches? What's the matter with his slugging percentage? He's even faster than Pierre.

My goodness.

DirtySox
06-14-2011, 12:29 AM
Are some of you people on drugs? Or do you not watch the games? Pierre has been awful this season. He's continues to screw up in left field. He's lost speed on the bases that he's not getting back. He's one reason why we've been one of the most disappointing teams in baseball.

While Lillibridge may not be an everyday player, he's better than Pierre.

And don't make the mistake of selling Lillibridge short, even though our incompetent manager does. How can somebody not like Lillibridge's handful of great catches? What's the matter with his slugging percentage? He's even faster than Pierre.

My goodness.

Pretty much. Juan Pierre is essentially worthless at this point. The only full-time player that has contributed less to their team this year is Chone Figgins. I really can't fathom why people are defending him. Here's hoping he's shown the door in the immediate future.

Nellie_Fox
06-14-2011, 02:06 AM
Here's hoping he's shown the door in the immediate future.Unless by "shown the door" you mean made a bench player, I disagree. Cutting him accomplishes nothing. Having him on the bench at least provides a pinch runner, and you've got to pay him either way.

hawkjt
06-14-2011, 03:22 AM
Lilly has cooled off on this homestand. Started 8 of 11 games,and was 4 of 23 at the plate. Pierre started 10 of 11 games, and was 9 of 35 at the plate. Neither was hot,but I fear that Lilly was a bit overexposed between the road trip and then this homestand. Hopefully he will pick it back up to that torrid pace he was on in Boston,soon. He will get plenty of playing time at the three outfield spots and maybe 2nd base if he keeps hitting.

cws05champ
06-14-2011, 08:13 AM
Unless by "shown the door" you mean made a bench player, I disagree. Cutting him accomplishes nothing. Having him on the bench at least provides a pinch runner, and you've got to pay him either way.
Thank you...all of this cut Pierre talk accomplishes nothing. His salary is a sunk cost, and even if he is relegated to starting 2 days a week and coming off the bench for bunting and speed on the bags, he can help this team. If he were released he would be picked up by someone within a day. Also, over his career he is a really strong 2nd half player (.312/.357OBP 2nd half vs. .284/.338OBP 1st half), even last year he raised his BA nearly 40 points in the 2nd half.

I can understand everyone wanting Viciedo up or Lillibridge to play more...but flat out releasing Pierre would just be stupid. More of a platoon with Lilli and Pierre may actually be good for both. Pierre has shown that he is a professional and can handle a demotion without team disruption.

russ99
06-14-2011, 08:51 AM
I can understand everyone wanting Viciedo up or Lillibridge to play more...but flat out releasing Pierre would just be stupid. More of a platoon with Lilli and Pierre may actually be good for both. Pierre has shown that he is a professional and can handle a demotion without team disruption.

+1.

The issue here is not whether Pierre belongs on the team, it's that Ozzie continues to put him in every day. At the least there should be a platoon where Lillibridge goes vs. lefties.

I'm convinced that if Juan were threatened with loss of playing time (with Lillibridge starting more often) he'd snap out of his funk.

However, when Pierre comes back after a day on the bench and goes 2-4, people should back off.

Domeshot17
06-14-2011, 09:23 AM
+1.

The issue here is not whether Pierre belongs on the team, it's that Ozzie continues to put him in every day. At the least there should be a platoon where Lillibridge goes vs. lefties.

I'm convinced that if Juan were threatened with loss of playing time (with Lillibridge starting more often) he'd snap out of his funk.

However, when Pierre comes back after a day on the bench and goes 2-4, people should back off.

Pierre is hitting .316 with a .451 OBP and a .784 OPS vs. Lefties. He is hitting .243 with .283 OBP and a sub .600 OBP vs. Righties. Lillibridge has been hitting almost 20 points higher with a 50 point higher OBP vs righties (although he has hit lefties effectively).

This is why managing using "how to manage for dummies" and just going off the old idea of lefty/righty match ups will lose you more games than it will win you.

That said, it won't change. Ozzie loves his low average, speedy guys who remind him of him. For everyone pointing out that Lillibridge barely made the roster and was not slated to start, he was a high draft pick (4th round), a top 100 prospect in that draft, and a former top 10 prospect for the Braves. Carlos Quentin pretty much did the exact same thing.

eriqjaffe
06-14-2011, 09:34 AM
And over 600 plate appearances he's on a pace to hit 45 HR's.

That's why on-pace stats projections are worthless. Tuffy Rhodes was once on pace to hit 486 HR's.

Bottom line: Lillibridge is playing much better than Juan and should at the very least be platooning with Pierre.If it wasn't for the fact that Lilli's 24.5% K rate this year is only slightly better than his 27.4% career K rate, I'd be more likely agree with you on that point.

Ranger
06-15-2011, 02:57 PM
From ESPN's latest power rankings:

"Juan Pierre has been a dreadful hitter (75 OPS+ entering Monday) and base stealer (his nine CS lead the majors), yet he has led off in 65 of their first 68 games and leads the AL in plate appearances. -- Bill Parker: The Platoon Advantage (http://www.platoonadvantage.com/)"

Now I realize that most people agree with me that there is literally NO risk in trying Lillibridge at leadoff for a little bit. I believe that other posters have pointed out how he is better in atleast every single category imaginable.

But what really pissed me off is both Mark Gonzalez and Chris "I will defend the Sox until I die" Rongey. They both claimed it's better to start Pierre because of his skill set and potential based off of history.

1) How do we even know what Lillbridge's skill set is if he doesn't play consistently?

2) How can you conclude somebody has promise for the future based on history? A little contradicting?

3) Ozzie has said that Lillibridge is a utility player and if he needs to start regularly then something is wrong. Well Oz, SOMETHING IS WRONG: Juan Pierre! Don't be in denial!

Thank you for letting me vent. I feel a lot better.

I'll be glad to be associated with Gonzales (note the spelling) any day. He's as rational as any person can be. Sorry you don't like logic, son. There's plenty of reason to think that Lillibridge is perfect where he is and that they're getting what they're getting from him, in part, because of the way they're playing him. Some players simply have success in limited roles. It wasn't but a year ago I was told by multiple Sox fans it was an embarrassment that Lillibridge was in a Major League uniform.

People around here tend to fall in love hard and fast with certain guys only to be disappointed in the end. Relax. He's doing well in his role, let him stay there.

It is absolutely not contradiction to use past performance as a predictor for the future. In fact, it's a valuable tool in doing so, in particular, with veteran players. While the past does not always predict the future (Jose Bautista), for most players, it can be used in conjunction with other factors to get a reasonable idea of what is likely to happen in the future.

Take Dunn, for example. If he's had 11 straight years of an OPS around or above .900, isn't it reasonable to assume he will continue to do that as long as he's in his prime? Of course it is.

SI1020
06-15-2011, 03:11 PM
Take Dunn, for example. If he's had 11 straight years of an OPS around or above .900, isn't it reasonable to assume he will continue to do that as long as he's in his prime? Of course it is. He wouldn't be the first guy to fall off a cliff. I admit that I had no problem with the Dunn signing, and that it's entirely possible he'll return to form. OTOH I'm trying to remember a productive player going into such an extended slump. Looking so entirely lost at the plate. Wait a minute, I think I do remember one. His name is Rios.

BringHomeDaBacon
06-15-2011, 03:24 PM
I'll be glad to be associated with Gonzales (note the spelling) any day. He's as rational as any person can be. Sorry you don't like logic, son. There's plenty of reason to think that Lillibridge is perfect where he is and that they're getting what they're getting from him, in part, because of the way they're playing him. Some players simply have success in limited roles. It wasn't but a year ago I was told by multiple Sox fans it was an embarrassment that Lillibridge was in a Major League uniform.

People around here tend to fall in love hard and fast with certain guys only to be disappointed in the end. Relax. He's doing well in his role, let him stay there.

It is absolutely not contradiction to use past performance as a predictor for the future. In fact, it's a valuable tool in doing so, in particular, with veteran players. While the past does not always predict the future (Jose Bautista), for most players, it can be used in conjunction with other factors to get a reasonable idea of what is likely to happen in the future.

Take Dunn, for example. If he's had 11 straight years of an OPS around or above .900, isn't it reasonable to assume he will continue to do that as long as he's in his prime? Of course it is.

Except that this discussion is about Juan Pierre who is no longer in his prime. Pierre's offensive numbers showed a decline last year at age 32 and have fallen even further at age 33. Even if one were to grant the benefit of the doubt and attribute the slow start at the plate this year to a temporary slump, it would not explain the obvious decline in his base running and defensive capabilities. Lance Johnson and Willie Wilson are two examples of similar players that were done as 600+ AB leadoff hitters at the EXACT same age. The sooner the White Sox address the reality that father time has caught up to Juan Pierre the better off the team will be.

eriqjaffe
06-15-2011, 03:53 PM
OTOH I'm trying to remember a productive player going into such an extended slump.How about Paul Konerko in the first half of '03? He put up a staggeringly bad .197/.267/.300 line then.

I'd say he rebounded pretty well, though. :cool:

Chez
06-15-2011, 03:54 PM
He wouldn't be the first guy to fall off a cliff. I admit that I had no problem with the Dunn signing, and that it's entirely possible he'll return to form. OTOH I'm trying to remember a productive player going into such an extended slump. Looking so entirely lost at the plate. Wait a minute, I think I do remember one. His name is Rios.

Dan Uggla 2011.

Milw
06-15-2011, 04:27 PM
Regardless of whose side you're on in this debate, can we stop it with the "true leadoff hitter" nonsense?

Yes, there is a prototypical leadoff hitter, and Pierre was once that. He's not anymore. Just because he is fast and doesn't have any power doesn't mean the Sox should feel obligated to put him in the leadoff spot.

Think about this logically: Pierre is so ineffective at this point that there is legitimate debate about whether he should even be on the team, and yet in the same breath we're debating about putting him in position to get the most plate appearances? Even Pierre defenders have to admit that this is an absurd debate.

Yes, it's nice to have a prototypical leadoff hitter. But it's much more important to have a leadoff hitter who actually gets on base consistently. We may not have one of the former, but we have plenty of the latter. The Sox will survive and thrive with Juan Pierre out of the lineup, trust me.

kittle42
06-15-2011, 04:51 PM
Regardless of whose side you're on in this debate, can we stop it with the "true leadoff hitter" nonsense?

Yes, there is a prototypical leadoff hitter, and Pierre was once that. He's not anymore. Just because he is fast and doesn't have any power doesn't mean the Sox should feel obligated to put him in the leadoff spot.

Think about this logically: Pierre is so ineffective at this point that there is legitimate debate about whether he should even be on the team, and yet in the same breath we're debating about putting him in position to get the most plate appearances? Even Pierre defenders have to admit that this is an absurd debate.

Yes, it's nice to have a prototypical leadoff hitter. But it's much more important to have a leadoff hitter who actually gets on base consistently. We may not have one of the former, but we have plenty of the latter. The Sox will survive and thrive with Juan Pierre out of the lineup, trust me.

Exactly. Remember when Dewayne Wise was leading off? It's because he has the "skill set"of the "prototypical leadoff hitter."

doublem23
06-15-2011, 05:11 PM
Regardless of whose side you're on in this debate, can we stop it with the "true leadoff hitter" nonsense?

Yes, there is a prototypical leadoff hitter, and Pierre was once that. He's not anymore. Just because he is fast and doesn't have any power doesn't mean the Sox should feel obligated to put him in the leadoff spot.

Think about this logically: Pierre is so ineffective at this point that there is legitimate debate about whether he should even be on the team, and yet in the same breath we're debating about putting him in position to get the most plate appearances? Even Pierre defenders have to admit that this is an absurd debate.

Yes, it's nice to have a prototypical leadoff hitter. But it's much more important to have a leadoff hitter who actually gets on base consistently. We may not have one of the former, but we have plenty of the latter. The Sox will survive and thrive with Juan Pierre out of the lineup, trust me.

Absolutely. At best, if Pierre is going to play everyday, he should be hitting 9th, be the guy at the end of the order that causes some havoc in the rare occassion he actually gets on base. He leads the American League in plate appearances. That is beyond insane.

Sox
06-15-2011, 05:36 PM
Regardless of whose side you're on in this debate, can we stop it with the "true leadoff hitter" nonsense?

Yes, there is a prototypical leadoff hitter, and Pierre was once that. He's not anymore. Just because he is fast and doesn't have any power doesn't mean the Sox should feel obligated to put him in the leadoff spot.

Think about this logically: Pierre is so ineffective at this point that there is legitimate debate about whether he should even be on the team, and yet in the same breath we're debating about putting him in position to get the most plate appearances? Even Pierre defenders have to admit that this is an absurd debate.

Yes, it's nice to have a prototypical leadoff hitter. But it's much more important to have a leadoff hitter who actually gets on base consistently. We may not have one of the former, but we have plenty of the latter. The Sox will survive and thrive with Juan Pierre out of the lineup, trust me.

:thumbsup: well stated!! Good post!!

billyvsox
06-15-2011, 06:16 PM
Regardless of whose side you're on in this debate, can we stop it with the "true leadoff hitter" nonsense?

Yes, there is a prototypical leadoff hitter, and Pierre was once that. He's not anymore. Just because he is fast and doesn't have any power doesn't mean the Sox should feel obligated to put him in the leadoff spot.

Think about this logically: Pierre is so ineffective at this point that there is legitimate debate about whether he should even be on the team, and yet in the same breath we're debating about putting him in position to get the most plate appearances? Even Pierre defenders have to admit that this is an absurd debate.

Yes, it's nice to have a prototypical leadoff hitter. But it's much more important to have a leadoff hitter who actually gets on base consistently. We may not have one of the former, but we have plenty of the latter. The Sox will survive and thrive with Juan Pierre out of the lineup, trust me.

Agreed! I need no futher proof then my eyes. Juan Pierre is just not very good anymore at any phase of the game. I have no idea why people don't think Lillibridge can play everyday since he hasn't gotten the chance, but it should be Viciedo in left field anyway. I hear he is already probably better defensively then PError.

As for leadoff, I guess try Ramirez, at least he gets on base more has some speed.

Hmmm:

Ramirez
Morel
Quentin
Konerko
Dunn
Viciedo
Rios
A.J.
Beckham

Sounds better to me

Milw
06-15-2011, 06:42 PM
Agreed! I need no futher proof then my eyes. Juan Pierre is just not very good anymore at any phase of the game. I have no idea why people don't think Lillibridge can play everyday since he hasn't gotten the chance, but it should be Viciedo in left field anyway. I hear he is already probably better defensively then PError.

As for leadoff, I guess try Ramirez, at least he gets on base more has some speed.

Hmmm:

Ramirez
Morel
Quentin
Konerko
Dunn
Viciedo
Rios
A.J.
Beckham

Sounds better to me
Exactly.

Ultimately, Pierre is considered a "true leadoff hitter" because of his propensity to steal bases and because of his relatively high batting average and low slugging percentage. But he's no longer stealing bases effectively, negating his best leadoff asset. And even if he were stealing at a higher clip, his batting average has sunk low enough that he doesn't even have enough opportunities to steal.

And he still has no power, which, ironically, is the best argument for keeping him up there. But it's a flawed argument on its face.

Speed is great to have, but you can't steal first. And lately, Pierre can't steal second, either.

captain54
07-06-2011, 03:34 AM
There's plenty of reason to think that Lillibridge is perfect where he is and that they're getting what they're getting from him, in part, because of the way they're playing him. Some players simply have success in limited roles. It wasn't but a year ago I was told by multiple Sox fans it was an embarrassment that Lillibridge was in a Major League uniform.
.

You would have to say that based upon the performance tonite, Rongey is dead on about Lillibridge

voodoochile
07-06-2011, 03:41 AM
You would have to say that based upon the performance tonite, Rongey is dead on about Lillibridge

He's been coming back to earth for a while now. He's a nice bench player, but he's not the savior some are making him out to be.

JermaineDye05
07-06-2011, 03:50 AM
He's been coming back to earth for a while now. He's a nice bench player, but he's not the savior some are making him out to be.

I still think he should have gotten more playing time while he was hot and while Pierre was significantly cold.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda.

spawn
07-06-2011, 09:18 AM
He's been coming back to earth for a while now. He's a nice bench player, but he's not the savior some are making him out to be.

Exactly. Ozzie is using him exactly as he should.

russ99
07-06-2011, 09:47 AM
But if his OBP is at or higher than .320, he can bunt in ANY situation, he can catch a simple pop-up, can steal an occasional base, and hit for some power, he's already ahead of Pierre.

Pierre can do all of the above except hit for power, which many say is Lillibridge's downfall. He would be a much more effective player if he stops swinging for the fences. This has been brought up many times by Ozzie, the coaches, fans, media, etc.

Despite being more of a contact hitter with some of the traits of a leadoff hitter, he's in love with home runs, and nobody can talk him out of it.

BTW: in the last week, Pierre's raised his numbers to .261 with a .322 OBP, and he stole 2 bases.

Nellie_Fox
07-07-2011, 12:59 AM
Pierre can do all of the above except hit for power, which many say is Lillibridge's downfall. He would be a much more effective player if he stops swinging for the fences. This has been brought up many times by Ozzie, the coaches, fans, media, etc.

Despite being more of a contact hitter with some of the traits of a leadoff hitter, he's in love with home runs, and nobody can talk him out of it.We had a discussion on here some time ago that guys like him should to get themselves a heavier, thick-handled bat, choke up about 4 inches, and learn to be a contact hitter, use his speed. When's the last time you even heard a player referred to as a "place hitter?"

JermaineDye05
07-07-2011, 01:01 AM
Pierre can do all of the above except hit for power, which many say is Lillibridge's downfall. He would be a much more effective player if he stops swinging for the fences. This has been brought up many times by Ozzie, the coaches, fans, media, etc.

Despite being more of a contact hitter with some of the traits of a leadoff hitter, he's in love with home runs, and nobody can talk him out of it.

BTW: in the last week, Pierre's raised his numbers to .261 with a .322 OBP, and he stole 2 bases.

I don't know, Juan's catching of simple pop-ups have turned into quite an adventure this season.

russ99
07-07-2011, 02:19 AM
I don't know, Juan's catching of simple pop-ups have turned into quite an adventure this season.

Selective memory.

Juan has had 5 errors this season. Only one error was a drop of a simple pop-up, the same number of those as Rios. The other errors were when Juan was on the run and/or against the wall.

JermaineDye05
07-07-2011, 02:23 AM
Selective memory.

Juan has had 5 errors this season. Only one error was a drop of a simple pop-up, the same number of those as Rios. The other errors were when Juan was on the run and/or against the wall.

That's fair.

I think what's been more glaring, are the ones that he doesn't get to.

It's really quite crazy how much he's lost speed wise in just 1 season.