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Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 06:48 PM
I respect this person a great deal. They know the game and have been involved with it on a daily basis since the early 90's. I'm talking at the major league level. They know people directly with the Sox organization, people directly in other organizations, spend a lot of time with scouts.

We've been e-mailing each other on what has happened this weekend and what has gone wrong with this organization since February 2006.

I won't say anything more about the source. I don't want to potentially get them in trouble. Rest assured though, they have seen a lot, heard a lot and know a lot.

These are their thoughts on the Sox situation from top to bottom. Take them for what they may be worth to you.

-----------------------------------------------

The common thread is that this organization is too content, from top to bottom.

Duane Shaffer (former Sox farm director) had his faults, but JR suddenly interfered at draft time as he did with getting AJ signed last winter.

There were yellow flags with Dave Wilder before he was HIRED.

I like what Buddy Bell is doing with the minor league system, but there are a lot of guys drafted from the Indiana-Ohio-Kentucky areas - close to where Doug Laumann lives.

Now onto the big club. Six-man rotation in 2006 would have won it for them, and they would have Brandon McCarthy under control (although John Danks was a steal).

Brian Anderson had the attention span of a chimp.

Josh Fields was a tender psyche kid.

I would have broke up the nucleus (Konerko, Dye, AJ) after 2007, although they won a division in 08 and should have gone farther had Vazquez not been so passive.

Too much of the old guard has been around too long. As a result, that's why you heard the "it's still early" quote.

Writers, baseball people and scouts always ask me what it's like around the Sox because of the outspokenness of Ozzie and KW that would get most execs in trouble.

Funny how Ozzie's plan in 2010 didn't work because of Kotsay, and KW's plan is blowing up because of Dunn.

I would have done the same thing as KW did with the bullpen in 2007 with power arms. He just had the wrong ones.

They thought they could get a lot out of Erstad in 2007 and Colon and Dye in 2009 without realizing it's a young man's game with testing for amphetamines.

Teahen signing was bad also because Morel was going to be the man as soon as this year.

Looks like you can't turn football players into baseball players (Borchard, Jerry Owens and now Mitchell).

I was pushing for Rene Lachemann to be a coach if Cora left because he would have been 'an outsider' with plenty of optional views.

They've made a farce of the draft by picking 'sons of.' They got what they asked for with Oney Guillen, Kyle Williams, etc.

I really think KW relies more on their "numbers guys" / sabermetrics than their scouts, who rarely hear from him."

-------------------------------------------------------

The biggest surprise to me in this individuals comments were the allegation that JR "interferes" in the draft process (because of money???) and that he apparently got involved in the AJ situation last winter.

Everything I had always seen said that JR was a "hands-off" owner who lets the people he hired do their jobs. Maybe that's not the case?

Anyway I found some of the comments fascinating and disquieting. If true they tell a lot about why certain things haven't happened and probably won't happen if the status-quo remains.

I'll continue to try to get opinions from other friends and sources to see if a pattern emerges.

For now like I said take these for what they may be worth to you.

Lip

Brian26
05-29-2011, 07:01 PM
Not quite sure what's being insinuated with the Erstad, Colon and Dye comments, but it seems irresponsible at best.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 07:04 PM
Brian:

I wondered myself. I'll try to follow up on that for you. Like I said this person has seen a lot, heard a lot and knows a lot. I think a lot more than they told me.

Lip

doublem23
05-29-2011, 07:07 PM
Not quite sure what's being insinuated with the Erstad, Colon and Dye comments, but it seems irresponsible at best.

Yeah plus anyone who emails in purple... I'm guessing that was pulled from his hotmail account. :rolling:

Noneck
05-29-2011, 07:07 PM
It doesn't surprise me about Reinsdorf. We have seen him involved with many different signings so drafting doesn't surprise. He tries to make the public believe he is not hands on but his nature is to always be where the money comes in and where it goes out. That is why he has been a successful businessman.

DumpJerry
05-29-2011, 07:08 PM
Not quite sure what's being insinuated with the Erstad, Colon and Dye comments, but it seems irresponsible at best.
Made sense to me. They were older players who tire easily and no longer could take something stronger than a cup of coffee to recover from one game to the next like the "old days" of a couple of years earlier.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 07:10 PM
Double:

Actually I changed that color when posting the message. Call me paranoid but I wanted to do what I could to protect the source.

On a related note did you get that e-mail I sent you a few days ago on the Buehrle contract discussion?

Lip

doublem23
05-29-2011, 07:12 PM
Double:

Actually I changed that color when posting the message. Call me paranoid but I wanted to do what I could to protect the source. He e-mails me in a different color by the way.

On a related note did you get that e-mail I sent you a few days ago on the Buehrle contract discussion?

Lip

Yeah, I'm not really in the business of believing the "I have a source, but I can't name them" crap.

JermaineDye05
05-29-2011, 07:13 PM
I find it interesting that your source describes the organization as "too content."

This is how I've viewed the Ozzie and Walker situation. It seems fairly obvious that there's something wrong with this team's coaching staff given that different players with good track records seem to struggle offensively as soon as they reach this team. And yet, nothing is done about it. The ownership just seems content to the point where they seem almost ignorant to believe that things will fix themselves.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 07:15 PM
Double:

I understand where you're coming from but that's kind of how things are. I don't have the right to tell you who it is. Someday maybe they'll allow me to do so. That's why I always say, 'take it for whatever it may be worth' to you.

Lip

Brian26
05-29-2011, 07:17 PM
Made sense to me. They were older players who tire easily and no longer could take something stronger than a cup of coffee to recover from one game to the next like the "old days" of a couple of years earlier.

Like I said, that accusation seems irresponsible.

DickAllen72
05-29-2011, 07:25 PM
Lip,

Thanks. I appreciate all the info and inside sources you bring to this board.

soxinem1
05-29-2011, 07:43 PM
I find it interesting that your source describes the organization as "too content."

This is how I've viewed the Ozzie and Walker situation. It seems fairly obvious that there's something wrong with this team's coaching staff given that different players with good track records seem to struggle offensively as soon as they reach this team. And yet, nothing is done about it. The ownership just seems content to the point where they seem almost ignorant to believe that things will fix themselves.

A lot of those veterans struggled because they had 195,000 miles on their engines, or in guys like Teahen's case, sucked before they arrived.

JermaineDye05
05-29-2011, 07:46 PM
A lot of those veterans struggled because they had 195,000 miles on their engines, or in guys like Teahen's case, sucked before they arrived.

Yeah, but in cases like Dunn, it really makes you wonder.

I seem to recall Orlando Cabrera starting off really slowly in 2008.

DumpJerry
05-29-2011, 07:49 PM
Like I said, that accusation seems irresponsible.
There was no accusation in the message from Lip's source. It was just a reflection of the new reality of MLB testing that the Sox did not take into account when signing on those players past their usefulness.

SI1020
05-29-2011, 07:54 PM
Yeah, I'm not really in the business of believing the "I have a source, but I can't name them" crap. He's been in the business for thirty plus years. Of course he has some sources. I have never been in the business and have at various times had some sources. Good ones.

johnny bench
05-29-2011, 08:26 PM
They've made a farce of the draft by picking 'sons of.' They got what they asked for with Oney Guillen, Kyle Williams, etc.


From Baseball Reference:
Oney Guillen:
"Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=CHW&year_ID=2007&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year) in the 36th round (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?year_ID=2007&draft_round=36&draft_type=junreg&query_type=year_round) of the 2007 MLB June Amateur Draft."
Kyle Williams:
"Drafted by the Chicago White Sox (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?team_ID=CHW&year_ID=2006&draft_type=junreg&query_type=franch_year) in the 47th round (http://www.baseball-reference.com/draft/?year_ID=2006&draft_round=47&draft_type=junreg&query_type=year_round) of the 2006 MLB June Amateur Draft"

A bad 36th round choice and a bad 47th round choice? That's the case for firing a GM and manager who have won a World Series?

Brian Anderson is a head case? (15th pick of the first round in 2003)
He could choose to give the WS credit for trading for John Danks (9th pick of the first round in 2003).

Is this an indictment or sour grapes?

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
The most shocking thing to me is that Kenny relies more on stats than on scouts. It at least makes me think our scouting department is SO awful then.

Noneck
05-29-2011, 08:35 PM
The most shocking thing to me is that Kenny relies more on stats than on scouts. It at least makes me think our scouting department is SO awful then.


Makes me wonder about Hahns capabilities also since he is a known stats guy.

Daver
05-29-2011, 09:02 PM
What did JR have to say about Carrie Schueler getting drafted?

Tragg
05-29-2011, 09:09 PM
Exclusive of the "accusation", how could anyone really have expected to get a lot out of Erstad and Colon?


The worst insider draft was using the relatively high pick on Ken Williams JR and then giving him 500K signing bonus.

Danryan
05-29-2011, 09:31 PM
This all sounds like second guessing to me. We all know the reputation of the Sox farm system. It is difficult to build a club from the farm system when your drafting low every year. Only a few teams are successful, and that comes from signing free agents. I never heard too many complaints at the time of these decisions. The Sox have been favored to be around the top of their division for every year after 2005. I didn't like a number of the moves, however it is easy to criticize after the fact. I do believe changes are necessary now, and wouldn't have a problem with replacing management.

HaroMaster87
05-29-2011, 09:37 PM
What did JR have to say about Carrie Schueler getting drafted?


zing!

Jurr
05-29-2011, 09:40 PM
This all sounds like second guessing to me. We all know the reputation of the Sox farm system. It is difficult to build a club from the farm system when your drafting low every year. Only a few teams are successful, and that comes from signing free agents. I never heard too many complaints at the time of these decisions. The Sox have been favored to be around the top of their division for every year after 2005. I didn't like a number of the moves, however it is easy to criticize after the fact. I do believe changes are necessary now, and wouldn't have a problem with replacing management.

Well, being picked to succeed by pundits is easy when the "name" players are being brought in over and over. People just assume the production will be seamlessly plugged into the lineup card.

The organization has gotten stale. Ozzie's message now falls on deaf ears, and that was his premier quality. He could defuse pressure. Now the act has run its course.

The great thing about the Sox is the payroll. They can get back to competition quickly if they sell off the roster, load up on youngsters, and take a few lumps. My fear is that JR will lose so much money this year that he will be hesitant to repeat this expenditure.

It's past time to blow this puppy up.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 09:40 PM
Dan:

Well the Red Sox and Yankees for example draft low every year and they seem to have produced some pretty good players through the farm system. How can they do it and not the Sox if draft position is the determining factor?

Lip

DirtySox
05-29-2011, 09:50 PM
Dan:

Well the Red Sox and Yankees for example draft low every year and they seem to have produced some pretty good players through the farm system. How can they do it and not the Sox if draft position is the determining factor?

Lip

It is by no means the determining factor. It's merely a cop out defense for the state of the farm system.

I'll leave this here (http://www.baseballamerica.com/blog/draft/2010/08/bonus-expenditures-2008-10/).

Danryan
05-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Where would the Yanks be without Arod , Texeria, Sabathia. The Red Sox do better, Gonzalez, Crawford, and Ortiz. I believe all were free agent signings. I agree the White Sox should be in the same class, and changes should be made in personell.

harwar
05-30-2011, 09:26 AM
The most shocking thing to me is that Kenny relies more on stats than on scouts. It at least makes me think our scouting department is SO awful then.

Yea, that's the only thing that stood out for me also .. and in a big way .. everything else i read was dead on .. nice job Lip

TomBradley72
05-30-2011, 09:41 AM
Exclusive of the "accusation", how could anyone really have expected to get a lot out of Erstad and Colon?


The worst insider draft was using the relatively high pick on Ken Williams JR and then giving him 500K signing bonus.

Did they really give him a $500K bonus? Wow.

He's hitting .188 in AA.

TomBradley72
05-30-2011, 09:43 AM
This all sounds like second guessing to me. We all know the reputation of the Sox farm system. It is difficult to build a club from the farm system when your drafting low every year.

Top minor league systems include- Braves, Rays, Yankees, Phillies, Angels, Twins- all perennial contenders.

Soxfest
05-30-2011, 10:53 AM
#1 problem is blind loyalty and it is killing this franchise top to bottom!:angry:

voodoochile
05-30-2011, 11:29 AM
Did they really give him a $500K bonus? Wow.

He's hitting .188 in AA.

He was at least a draftable player and was on a lot of boards just a couple rounds lower than where the Sox took him, IIRC. I don't know the signing bonus slot situation but he also was taken in the first 10 rounds and bonuses tend to get paid in that area. It wouldn't surprise me if he got more than he should have.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2011, 11:40 AM
Brian:

In answer to your concern over the comments about Erstad, Dye and Colon. I got back with my source and this is what they said this morning:

"I don't think Erstad would have cheated the game, same for Dye. They just hit walls in their careers. But the game is getting younger."

Hope this helps.

Lip

thomas35forever
05-30-2011, 12:21 PM
Whoever wrote that seems to have given up on Mitchell already. I know he's got a nasty injury to recover from, but is the notion that he's never going to be anything close to an All-Star really plausible?

DirtySox
05-30-2011, 12:26 PM
Whoever wrote that seems to have given up on Mitchell already. I know he's got a nasty injury to recover from, but is the notion that he's never going to be anything close to an All-Star really plausible?

Anything close to an All-Star? That isn't plausible for the majority of 1st round picks.

It's too early to give up on Mitchell, but he has been absolutely dreadful this year. He has been hovering around .200 most of the season, has a 35% strikeout rate, isn't showing much of any plate discipline, and hasn't been utilizing his speed tool at all. I don't have high hopes for Jared, but it is indeed premature to declare him a bust. Certainly not too early to worry though.

Soxfest
05-30-2011, 12:41 PM
He was at least a draftable player and was on a lot of boards just a couple rounds lower than where the Sox took him, IIRC. I don't know the signing bonus slot situation but he also was taken in the first 10 rounds and bonuses tend to get paid in that area. It wouldn't surprise me if he got more than he should have.
He was the 4th OF on his own college team nothing like Daddy getting you some money from Uncle Jerry.

DirtySox
05-30-2011, 12:46 PM
He was at least a draftable player and was on a lot of boards just a couple rounds lower than where the Sox took him, IIRC. I don't know the signing bonus slot situation but he also was taken in the first 10 rounds and bonuses tend to get paid in that area. It wouldn't surprise me if he got more than he should have.

He received a $150,000 bonus. He was drafted in the 5th round and the consensus was that he would be lucky to be selected before the 10th round.

Lamp81
05-30-2011, 01:18 PM
As far as the "Football Guys" comment, KW himself was a football player at Stanford, was a highly touted prospect, and failed at the Major League level.

Is he just trying to prove that "Football Guys" can make it, by continuing to sign them? Their track record goes against them. Also, Josh Fields was a QB at Oklahoma Sate, IIRC, and he was another failure.

voodoochile
05-30-2011, 02:20 PM
He received a $150,000 bonus. He was drafted in the 5th round and the consensus was that he would be lucky to be selected before the 10th round.

But he was draft worthy. That wasn't taking Carrie Schueler for example. There was a chance that KW jr. could develop.

DirtySox
05-30-2011, 02:23 PM
But he was draft worthy. That wasn't taking Carrie Schueler for example. There was a chance that KW jr. could develop.

Yes, but it shouldn't have been at the expense of the much better talent available at that point. He was a significant overdraft.

voodoochile
05-30-2011, 02:26 PM
As far as the "Football Guys" comment, KW himself was a football player at Stanford, was a highly touted prospect, and failed at the Major League level.

Is he just trying to prove that "Football Guys" can make it, by continuing to sign them? Their track record goes against them. Also, Josh Fields was a QB at Oklahoma Sate, IIRC, and he was another failure.

Both Fields and Borchard were also college baseball players and both were highly sought after players. To dismiss them as football players is a gross exaggeration in an effort to condemn KW. Yes Owens and Mitchell were/are football players attempting to make the change at the pro level. However the first two were not.

Oh and there are a few guys who have made the change before successfully - Deion and Bo come immediately to mind, but I am sure there are others. You take a chance on a high level talent and see what happens. The jury is still out on Mitchell too. It's WAY too soon to call him a bust especially coming off a (edit: ankle) injury last year.

doublem23
05-30-2011, 02:26 PM
Oh and there are a few guys who have made the change before successfully - Deion and Bo come immediately to mind, but I am sure there are others. You take a chance on a high level talent and see what happens. The jury is still out on Mitchell too. It's WAY too soon to call him a bust especially coming off a knee injury last year.

Ankle

Lamp81
05-30-2011, 10:31 PM
As far as the Oney issue, KW should have told the Guillen family where they honestly had Oney slotted at. He also should have let the other teams know that Oney was fair game. If another team had Oney rated higher, by all means draft him.

It was my impression the other teams did not have Oney on their boards, as a show of honor to the Sox. I am sure this is probably a known issue around the teams at draft time, think of Brenly's kid going to the Cubs. Of course, if Oney was a 1st round caliber player, he probably would have been fair game to any team, if available.

Tragg
05-30-2011, 11:08 PM
He received a $150,000 bonus. He was drafted in the 5th round and the consensus was that he would be lucky to be selected before the 10th round.

My bad on the bonus but he was drafted far earlier than warranted. But the point is that these insider deals, the conflicts of interest need to be avoided. It wasn't a complete farce like Carrie S. but it was still and unnecessary insider deal.

pudge
05-30-2011, 11:35 PM
It's all very "Chicago" - incestuous, nepotism, blind loyalty. Who knows if this source is sour grapes or not, but the comment that the old guard keeps promoting the mantra "It's early" is obviously true without having any inside knowledge. I think Chicago just went so long without a title, JR is rewarding everyone with a ridiculously long leash.

asindc
05-31-2011, 09:06 AM
Both Fields and Borchard were also college baseball players and both were highly sought after players. To dismiss them as football players is a gross exaggeration in an effort to condemn KW. Yes Owens and Mitchell were/are football players attempting to make the change at the pro level. However the first two were not.

Oh and there are a few guys who have made the change before successfully - Deion and Bo come immediately to mind, but I am sure there are others. You take a chance on a high level talent and see what happens. The jury is still out on Mitchell too. It's WAY too soon to call him a bust especially coming off a (edit: ankle) injury last year.

Dave Winfield
Brian Jordan
Kirk Gibson

DumpJerry
05-31-2011, 09:15 AM
As far as the "Football Guys" comment, KW himself was a football player at Stanford, was a highly touted prospect, and failed at the Major League level.

Is he just trying to prove that "Football Guys" can make it, by continuing to sign them? Their track record goes against them. Also, Josh Fields was a QB at Oklahoma Sate, IIRC, and he was another failure.

Many college players did football and baseball. This is because there are more football scholarships available to the school than baseball. This allows a school to get more baseball players because some of them are on football scholarships.

Anything close to an All-Star? That isn't plausible for the majority of 1st round picks.

It's too early to give up on Mitchell, but he has been absolutely dreadful this year. He has been hovering around .200 most of the season, has a 35% strikeout rate, isn't showing much of any plate discipline, and hasn't been utilizing his speed tool at all. I don't have high hopes for Jared, but it is indeed premature to declare him a bust. Certainly not too early to worry though.
Many MLB scouts rated Mitchell as a good Wide Receiver. In other words, they felt he was a good athlete, not a good baseball player.

kaufsox
05-31-2011, 09:59 AM
meh, nothing that surprising from your source Lip, maybe because I agree with a lot of what he observed, though I was a little surprised to hear that JR was involved in the draft. Anyway, I feel the same way about KW and Ozzie's plans blowing up, like the 2007 arms farce. If it works, KW is a genius, it didn't and he looks bad. Same with Kotsay and now Dunn. Though the Kotsay plan of 2010 was a much longer reach. Anyway, the White Sox are run in a peculiar way, not too shocking.

khan
05-31-2011, 10:46 AM
Anything close to an All-Star? That isn't plausible for the majority of 1st round picks.

It's too early to give up on Mitchell, but he has been absolutely dreadful this year. He has been hovering around .200 most of the season, has a 35% strikeout rate, isn't showing much of any plate discipline, and hasn't been utilizing his speed tool at all. I don't have high hopes for Jared, but it is indeed premature to declare him a bust. Certainly not too early to worry though.

Not only this, but given how "raw" Mitchell was considered to be, his assignment was a bit aggressive, IMO. So, I fully expected him to struggle this season.

My preference was for Mitchell to start lower in the system, and enjoy some success while he recoups from the lost time due to his injury. Alas, that ship has sailed. Regardless, it's still too early to write him off, IMO.

Bobby Thigpen
05-31-2011, 10:53 AM
Both Fields and Borchard were also college baseball players and both were highly sought after players. To dismiss them as football players is a gross exaggeration in an effort to condemn KW. Yes Owens and Mitchell were/are football players attempting to make the change at the pro level. However the first two were not.

Oh and there are a few guys who have made the change before successfully - Deion and Bo come immediately to mind, but I am sure there are others. You take a chance on a high level talent and see what happens. The jury is still out on Mitchell too. It's WAY too soon to call him a bust especially coming off a (edit: ankle) injury last year.
There was this guy named Frank Thomas once...

russ99
05-31-2011, 10:55 AM
Many college players did football and baseball. This is because there are more football scholarships available to the school than baseball. This allows a school to get more baseball players because some of them are on football scholarships.


Many MLB scouts rated Mitchell as a good Wide Receiver. In other words, they felt he was a good athlete, not a good baseball player.

Everyone knew that going in, that even though he had a very good last season at LSU, that he'd need to be a work in progress at the minor league level.

So I don't think that Mitchell being a bit more slow to develop is a surprise, especially since he lost a year to injury.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2011, 11:05 AM
Heard from a different source this morning that immediately after Ozzie's pregame talk with the media before the win Monday night, a White Sox player came up to a Chicago media member and whispered to them, "Ozzie needs to shut up..." (direct quote.)

If true perhaps there is some dissention, anger appearing among the players on the team.

Lip

BainesHOF
05-31-2011, 11:42 AM
Heard from a different source this morning that immediately after Ozzie's pregame talk with the media before the win Monday night, a White Sox player came up to a Chicago media member and whispered to them, "Ozzie needs to shut up..." (direct quote.)

If true perhaps there is some dissention, anger appearing among the players on the team.

Lip

This isn't surprising. Konerko was so tired of Ozzie's mouth that he almost didn't re-sign with us. We have other players, most notably Thornton, who went on record during the Twitter nonsense that Ozzie needs to keep stuff in the clubhouse. At this point, Ozzie has to be considered a joke among the players. What other manager has such baggage?

Ozzie is the kind of manager who is good for a team without much talent because at least he keeps the team in the headlines. But he only serves as a clownish distraction to a serious organization with a talented team. It's a shame that someone who has been a very good player for years such as Konerko is overshadowed by Ozzie's mouth.

hi im skot
05-31-2011, 11:49 AM
Konerko was so tired of Ozzie's mouth that he almost didn't re-sign with us.

Do you have a source, or is this just pure speculation?

voodoochile
05-31-2011, 12:01 PM
There was this guy named Frank Thomas once...

D'OH! :redface:

Another two-sport athlete in college who came to focus on baseball while still at Auburn. Guess the Sox drafted a football player that time too...

russ99
05-31-2011, 12:04 PM
Heard from a different source this morning that immediately after Ozzie's pregame talk with the media before the win Monday night, a White Sox player came up to a Chicago media member and whispered to them, "Ozzie needs to shut up..." (direct quote.)

If true perhaps there is some dissention, anger appearing among the players on the team.

Lip

Good. Maybe with anger, they'll wake up and play the game the way it should be instead of mailing it in most nights.

If I were a Sox player, I'd be beyond embarrassed at myself more than the manager...

PorkChopExpress
05-31-2011, 12:11 PM
Heard from a different source this morning that immediately after Ozzie's pregame talk with the media before the win Monday night, a White Sox player came up to a Chicago media member and whispered to them, "Ozzie needs to shut up..." (direct quote.)

If true perhaps there is some dissention, anger appearing among the players on the team.

Lip

So I guess Ozzie is a genius because he will get the team to unite against a common enemy, him.

FielderJones
05-31-2011, 12:15 PM
a White Sox player came up to a Chicago media member and whispered to them, "Ozzie needs to shut up..." (direct quote.)

If said player is hitting below .230, maybe he should concentrate a little more on making less outs and a little less on what his manager is saying.

havelj
05-31-2011, 12:42 PM
There was this guy named Frank Thomas once...

like

Bobby Thigpen
05-31-2011, 12:50 PM
Dave Winfield
Brian Jordan
Kirk Gibson
Dave Winfield never played college football.

jdm2662
05-31-2011, 12:55 PM
I always find it interesting that "sources" always come out when the team is losing.

southside rocks
05-31-2011, 01:20 PM
Good. Maybe with anger, they'll wake up and play the game the way it should be instead of mailing it in most nights.

If I were a Sox player, I'd be beyond embarrassed at myself more than the manager...

Completely agree. Best way for the players to make Ozzie shut up: start playing decent baseball. Start earning their damn paychecks.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2011, 01:26 PM
JDM:

Actually I talk , e-mail, phone sources throughout the year including seasons when the Sox are doing well.

Given the nature of Ozzie's comments this past weekend which many felt were out of line and over the top, I thought some would be interested to know perhaps a little more than was being written about or talked about by the mainstream media.

Lip

canOcorn
05-31-2011, 01:37 PM
I always find it interesting that "sources" always come out when the team is losing.

Not so coincidentally, winning usually masks the ugly truth. :shrug:

hawkjt
05-31-2011, 01:50 PM
JDM:

Actually I talk , e-mail, phone sources throughout the year including seasons when the Sox are doing well.

Given the nature of Ozzie's comments this past weekend which many felt were out of line and over the top, I thought some would be interested to know perhaps a little more than was being written about or talked about by the mainstream media.

Lip

I can see a vet player making a comment like that but I think it is a stretch to assume that it is more than a tiny pimple on the arse that has been Sox performance on the field this year. This is a vet group of pro players....if this actually affects the clubhouse or performance,they should find another job.
One player making an offhand comment to a writer does not constitute ''dissension in the clubhouse''. Losing does that. Winning is fun. Simple.

jdm2662
05-31-2011, 02:00 PM
JDM:

Actually I talk , e-mail, phone sources throughout the year including seasons when the Sox are doing well.

Given the nature of Ozzie's comments this past weekend which many felt were out of line and over the top, I thought some would be interested to know perhaps a little more than was being written about or talked about by the mainstream media.

Lip

And it's well appreicated because I know you aren't out to cause stir. It's just, I usually only hear these things when a certain team is losing. I guess you sound like a fool to talk negative when the team is winning.

voodoochile
05-31-2011, 02:03 PM
I can see a vet player making a comment like that but I think it is a stretch to assume that it is more than a tiny pimple on the arse that has been Sox performance on the field this year. This is a vet group of pro players....if this actually affects the clubhouse or performance,they should find another job.
One player making an offhand comment to a writer does not constitute ''dissension in the clubhouse''. Losing does that. Winning is fun. Simple.

And then the Sox went into Boston and played their best all around game of the season.

SoxSpeed22
05-31-2011, 02:15 PM
And then the Sox went into Boston and played their best all around game of the season.They're really taunting us with the way they play. They usually offset a good game with a few bad ones, and after a bad game, they can play well.

BainesHOF
05-31-2011, 04:32 PM
Do you have a source, or is this just pure speculation?

Lengthy interview on the Score in the offseason. Before that, a number of references to "off-the-field" distractions.

tsoxman
05-31-2011, 05:51 PM
#1 problem is blind loyalty and it is killing this franchise top to bottom!:angry:
I would never give back the WC from 2005, but trust me, we fans will be paying for this in spades for the next ten years. This organization is
D-Y-S-F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L.

TommyJohn
05-31-2011, 08:04 PM
I would never give back the WC from 2005, but trust me, we fans will be paying for this in spades for the next ten years. This organization is
D-Y-S-F-U-N-C-T-I-O-N-A-L.

I don't see the problem in that. Before 2005 many fans on here said they would gladly take ten straight 100 loss seasons in exchange for one World Series Championship.:redneck:redneck

File that one under the old reliable "be careful what you wish for..."

ChicagoG19
05-31-2011, 08:11 PM
I don't see the problem in that. Before 2005 many fans on here said they would gladly take ten straight 100 loss seasons in exchange for one World Series Championship.:redneck:redneck

File that one under the old reliable "be careful what you wish for..."

Fortunately it has not come to that yet. The team is still usually competitive.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2011, 09:49 PM
Baines:

I also recall a print story in one of the papers after he signed, when Paulie said something along the lines of all the distractions in 2010 and that the Sox have to stop those and concentrate on baseball.

Lip

JermaineDye05
05-31-2011, 09:50 PM
Baines:

I also recall a print story in one of the papers after he signed, when Paulie said something along the lines of all the distractions in 2010 and that the Sox have to stop those and concentrate on baseball.

Lip

He said something similar during a Score interview after he re-signed.

sunofgold
05-31-2011, 10:52 PM
There are always going to be issues to some degree on a team. Isn't that normal in any organization/company/family...etc?

I guess that a team/organization can have too many issues. Too many big ones. I would think that would be the Dodgers or the Mets right now. I wouldn't categorize us close to that territory.

Maybe even the Rays and/or Oakland since they cannot get enough fans through the gates. But, amazingly both team still seem to be competitive.

Lip Man 1
05-31-2011, 11:29 PM
Sun:

It took a full decade of lousy, terrible baseball to build up those high draft picks for Tampa. (which they aren't able to keep as evidenced by Crawford and Pena leaving - they'll be the first of a long line of them. And I realize Pena wasn't a draft pick.)

Oakland hasn't had a winning record since the 2006 season.

Just saying.

Lip