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Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 07:48 PM
This is a serious charge if true. I know a lot of folks including Mark Gonzales have consistently defended Bryan Little and all of his advanced scouts on getting accurate information to Sox hitters.

In the past I've specifically asked if this was a problem given how the Sox usually react to pitchers they've never seen before or as I call them "no-name" pitchers.

I've sent Gonzo an e-mail asking what he thought of this charge. I'll post his answer if I get one.

Here's Dunn's quote: “They brought a kid (Perez) in... we had no video, we had nothing on him. Our scouting report wasn’t exactly right. That’s no excuse. But he came in and shut us down.”

Lip

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 07:51 PM
I've always speculated this. Would not be surprised at all if it were true.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 07:52 PM
Well this is turning into quite a fun season.

Sigh. Blow it the **** up.

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 07:55 PM
This also may be the reason why so many of our draft picks have been ****.

1989
05-28-2011, 07:58 PM
Sounds like a ****ing excuse. You don't need video to hit fastballs right down the middle, which is exactly what that scrub was throwing.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/location.php-pitchSel=469802&game=gid_2011_05_28_chamlb_tormlb_1&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=.gif

Daver
05-28-2011, 08:00 PM
This also may be the reason why so many of our draft picks have been ****.


There is a huge difference between the two things you're comparing.

Brian26
05-28-2011, 08:01 PM
This also may be the reason why so many of our draft picks have been ****.

You're comparing advanced MLB scouting to college and high school scouts? This is apples and oranges.

Edit - Daver beat me to it.

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 08:01 PM
Sounds like a ****ing excuse. You don't need video to hit fastballs right down the middle, which is exactly what that scrub was throwing.

http://www.brooksbaseball.net/pfxVB/cache/location.php-pitchSel=469802&game=gid_2011_05_28_chamlb_tormlb_1&batterX=&innings=yyyyyyyyy&sp_type=1&s_type=.gif

So was Drabek, but still every hitter not named Pierre couldn't get a hit.

DirtySox
05-28-2011, 08:03 PM
This also may be the reason why so many of our draft picks have been ****.

Not at all.

Blueprint1
05-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Anyone but Cooper getting let go would be alright with me.

delben91
05-28-2011, 08:30 PM
Anyone but Cooper getting let go would be alright with me.

What's Cooper done this year? Sale's regressed, Pena's worse than ever, and Ohman can't get lefties out. And don't even get me started on Thornton. Can Cooper too for all I care.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 08:32 PM
This is a serious charge if true. I know a lot of folks including Mark Gonzales have consistently defended Bryan Little and all of his advanced scouts on getting accurate information to Sox hitters.

In the past I've specifically asked if this was a problem given how the Sox usually react to pitchers they've never seen before or as I call them "no-name" pitchers.

I've sent Gonzo an e-mail asking what he thought of this charge. I'll post his answer if I get one.

Here's Dunn's quote: “They brought a kid (Perez) in... we had no video, we had nothing on him. Our scouting report wasn’t exactly right. That’s no excuse. But he came in and shut us down.”

Lip
Sox spend very little on scouting and everyone in MLB knows it.

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 08:44 PM
What's Cooper done this year? Sale's regressed, Pena's worse than ever, and Ohman can't get lefties out. And don't even get me started on Thornton. Can Cooper too for all I care.

Phil Humber's our most reliable starter.

JB98
05-28-2011, 08:47 PM
Phil Humber's our most reliable starter.

Santos has been awesome, too.

All our starters have been reliable, except for the wildly inconsistent Jackson.

HaroMaster87
05-28-2011, 09:05 PM
haha...i just got finished reading this and was gonna start a thread and thought - let me see if anyone else caught that.

I posed this question in a post game thread a couple of days ago...since for some reason, no one on this team can hit a guy that they haven't seen before. And this fact goes back YEARS...

At least Adam Dunn is good for something...a fresh set of eyes on an old, stale, broken organization. I agree, blow it up but keep Coop!!

DumpJerry
05-28-2011, 09:51 PM
Huh? We have plenty of film of Timo Perez.

delben91
05-28-2011, 10:16 PM
Santos has been awesome, too.

All our starters have been reliable, except for the wildly inconsistent Jackson.

I'd argue that has more to do with the pitching coaches in the minor league system.

Just saying, totally cleaning house and having someone like Kirk Champion as the ML pitching coach wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

DSpivack
05-28-2011, 10:18 PM
I'd argue that has more to do with the pitching coaches in the minor league system.

Just saying, totally cleaning house and having someone like Kirk Champion as the ML pitching coach wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Why? He hasn't pitched in minors since 2009, and statistically has been a much better pitcher in the majors.

hi im skot
05-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Huh? We have plenty of film of Timo Perez.

Whiff.

Sargeant79
05-28-2011, 10:54 PM
I don't know how long the people in the advance scouting department have been here, but I can remember problems with pitchers they haven't seen before as far back as 2005. I'm not quite on the "fire everyone" bandwagon, but this issue has needed a smoking gun for a while. I hope Dunn brings the issue to light and at the very least, that department is made accountable for it.

doublem23
05-28-2011, 11:06 PM
What's Cooper done this year? Sale's regressed, Pena's worse than ever, and Ohman can't get lefties out. And don't even get me started on Thornton. Can Cooper too for all I care.

http://cbschicago.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/phil-humber.jpg?w=420

Pena and Ohman have always sucked. Sale is a disappointment, for sure, but he's a rush-job to the Majors. Look at what's going on with Bacon.

doublem23
05-28-2011, 11:08 PM
I'd argue that has more to do with the pitching coaches in the minor league system.

Just saying, totally cleaning house and having someone like Kirk Champion as the ML pitching coach wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

What? Santos had 28 innings in the minors in 1 season.

SoxSpeed22
05-28-2011, 11:09 PM
Why am I not surprised?

The Immigrant
05-28-2011, 11:12 PM
Didn't Oney Guillen work in the video department? Suddenly it all starts making sense...

doublem23
05-28-2011, 11:22 PM
Didn't Oney Guillen work in the video department? Suddenly it all starts making sense...

IIRC, Oney worked in the video wing of the marketing department.

chisoxfanatic
05-29-2011, 12:42 AM
What's Cooper done this year? Sale's regressed, Pena's worse than ever, and Ohman can't get lefties out. And don't even get me started on Thornton. Can Cooper too for all I care.
I'm willing to give Thornton the benefit of the doubt. He is a set-up man, not a closer. He should never have been asked to close. It's a totally different mindset closing games than it is being the 8th inning guy.

Mohoney
05-29-2011, 04:30 AM
I'm willing to give Thornton the benefit of the doubt. He is a set-up man, not a closer. He should never have been asked to close. It's a totally different mindset closing games than it is being the 8th inning guy.

Thornton deserved his shot at the role. He excelled in the 8th inning for an extended period. He established a resume. The only fair thing to do to reward excellent performance is to give a promotion. It wouldn't be fair to NEVER give him a crack at the closer's spot and bring in somebody from outside.

He was given a shot, he failed, and we adjusted. No regrets whatsoever.

kufram
05-29-2011, 05:11 AM
Whenever somebody says that it is not an excuse it means it is an excuse. If Dunn is right then the scouting team needs to be better. But frankly, the guy is being paid millions of dollars to hit. To hit he needs to know the pitchers he might face and what they can do. That's kind of ALL he needs to know other than the situation he is hitting in.

If there's been a problem getting the information he needs then he should have said something to the people responsible. Maybe he has, maybe he hasn't. But if I were being paid millions of dollars to do a job and I didn't have the data I needed to do it to the best of my ability I'd damn well make sure I got that data MYSELF if no one else got it for me.

I wonder what ball players did before the advent of video?

TomBradley72
05-29-2011, 06:14 AM
This is a serious charge if true. I know a lot of folks including Mark Gonzales have consistently defended Bryan Little and all of his advanced scouts on getting accurate information to Sox hitters.

In the past I've specifically asked if this was a problem given how the Sox usually react to pitchers they've never seen before or as I call them "no-name" pitchers.

I've sent Gonzo an e-mail asking what he thought of this charge. I'll post his answer if I get one.

Here's Dunn's quote: “They brought a kid (Perez) in... we had no video, we had nothing on him. Our scouting report wasn’t exactly right. That’s no excuse. But he came in and shut us down.”

Lip

Another swing and a miss by Adam Dunn.

He should keep his mouth shut- at least until he gets his first hit off a lefty- he looks like the Cory Snyder of this era.

johnny bench
05-29-2011, 06:20 AM
If true, I would have expected captain Konerko to have already popped off on this topic?

DrCrawdad
05-29-2011, 06:55 AM
Another swing and a miss by Adam Dunn.

He should keep his mouth shut- at least until he gets his first hit off a lefty- he looks like the Cory Snyder of this era.

You're right.

Dunn may be right about the Sox advance scouting however perhaps he can explain why he isn't hitting anyone this season.

wilburaga
05-29-2011, 07:48 AM
Sure, blame the scouts. Fit this loser with a Dunn's cap, nail his sorry ass to the bench and let the Little Beast DH. I haven't disliked a Sox player this much since Alpo Sax.

geofitz
05-29-2011, 07:59 AM
Kufram posed an interesting question: "What did hitters do before video?"

It seems to me they sat in the dugout, watched the opposing pitcher and actually talked to each other.

There's but a handful of teams now on which you can see several position players actually on the bench paying attention to the game.

Dan H
05-29-2011, 08:18 AM
You're right.

Dunn may be right about the Sox advance scouting however perhaps he can explain why he isn't hitting anyone this season.

If the White Sox are cheaping it out on scouting, that isn't good. But I have little sympathy for Dunn. He is paid a lot of money to drive in runs, and with the exception of opening day, he hasn't done it. If the Sox have any chance to salvage their season, Dunn has to start hitting. Before he starts criticizing anyone, he should get his average above .200. If he wants to talk about money, the organization has invested a great deal in him. But right now, if I hope to see someone get a key hit, I'd rather have Lillibridge up there. At least he acts like he wants to play and does come through.

Viva Medias B's
05-29-2011, 08:19 AM
Huh? We have plenty of film of Timo Perez.

:hawk
"COME ON TIMO!!! COME ON TIMO!!!"

There is no excuse for Dunn's poor performances at the plate. Alas, this scouting allegation is yet another sign of how screwed up the organization could be behind the scenes. And that reflects upon the general manager.

veeter
05-29-2011, 08:24 AM
This charge is an embarrassment. So now this giant donkey prima Donna blames not having video. **** you too Dunn.

balke
05-29-2011, 11:03 AM
What's Cooper done this year? Sale's regressed, Pena's worse than ever, and Ohman can't get lefties out. And don't even get me started on Thornton. Can Cooper too for all I care.

Phil humber. Floyd. a ridiculous amount of success taking guys with talent and turning their careers around. Relievers are typically not top tier talent. Pena would likely suck anywhere he played. Sale just had a rough start. Hell still probably end up with an era under 3.

balke
05-29-2011, 11:13 AM
Dunn is Completely lost and looks like he's close to a meltdown. Rios should be buying him a steak dinner every night though. Rios has been awful. It looks like his batting stance is way off from what it is supposed to be. He is usually more upright and balanced.

I truly think this is what the Sox deserve though for chasing lefty homeruns rather than finding guys who can hit.

LITTLE NELL
05-29-2011, 11:27 AM
Dunn is Completely lost and looks like he's close to a meltdown. Rios should be buying him a steak dinner every night though. Rios has been awful. It looks like his batting stance is way off from what it is supposed to be. He is usually more upright and balanced.

I truly think this is what the Sox deserve though for chasing lefty homeruns rather than finding guys who can hit.

I never could understand how Rios can hit at all with that stance of his.
There seems to be way too much bend in the knees and I don't ever remember him being more upright since he has been with the Sox.

GlassSox
05-29-2011, 11:46 AM
If he thinks that is his problem then Dunn should take some of that $ 56MM and hire his own advanced scout or hitting coach or .... :angry:

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 11:57 AM
I got an answer back from Mark Gonzales to this. For those who don't know Gonzo has told me often in the past about the job Bryan Little and the advanced scouts do. I've wondered about the players getting accurate information in the past when they'd be made to look like bad Little Leaguers trying to hit another "no-name" pitcher.

I fully expected Mark to say along the lines of, 'no truth to Dunn's charge. Those guys are doing the job in the advanced scouting department...'

Turns out that's NOT what he said. I think the Sox find themselves in another embarrassing situation.

Here's Gonzo's answer:

"I might believe him. Perez had pitched in only five major league games prior to Saturday, but minor league video is accessible. And I heard in Texas that the reports have stated merely the obvious and don't elaborate on the tendencies of players and managers. Something I plan to probe. An advance scout must provide tendencies on managers. College teams do this."

I surmise that it's not just Dunn making these comments but he's the first to go 'on the record.'

This is not good, not good at all!!!!!!!!!!!

Lip

TomBradley72
05-29-2011, 12:24 PM
.

I truly think this is what the Sox deserve though for chasing lefty homeruns rather than finding guys who can hit.

Exactly- reflects on KW having zero conistency in building a ream- they talk about being more athletic, fundamentals, etc.

Then they go out and blow $15M/year for a guy who does three things: hit 35-45 home runs each year, strikes out at Rob Deer levels (199 last year) and walks alot.

What he does not do is hit w/RISP (.235 career), hit lefties (.230s career) and especially lefty relievers (.140s career). How long until his contract expires?

billcissell
05-29-2011, 12:33 PM
Oh, so that explains why Adam Dung is 0 for 36 against lefties. Or that he hasn't even come close to hitting his weight all season.

Inaccurate scouting report? It's quite possible. But I think it's a piss poor excuse from a guy who has SUCKED all season long.

Williams is giving this guy $56 mil over 4 years. And what has he done so far?

Pathetic.

Noneck
05-29-2011, 12:53 PM
I dont doubt this is happening and has been happening. I am just curious why hitters have not been bitching about this for years. That type of info does affect their livelihood.

JermaineDye05
05-29-2011, 01:53 PM
I got an answer back from Mark Gonzales to this. For those who don't know Gonzo has told me often in the past about the job Bryan Little and the advanced scouts do. I've wondered about the players getting accurate information in the past when they'd be made to look like bad Little Leaguers trying to hit another "no-name" pitcher.

I fully expected Mark to say along the lines of, 'no truth to Dunn's charge. Those guys are doing the job in the advanced scouting department...'

Turns out that's NOT what he said. I think the Sox find themselves in another embarrassing situation.

Here's Gonzo's answer:

"I might believe him. Perez had pitched in only five major league games prior to Saturday, but minor league video is accessible. And I heard in Texas that the reports have stated merely the obvious and don't elaborate on the tendencies of players and managers. Something I plan to probe. An advance scout must provide tendencies on managers. College teams do this."

I surmise that it's not just Dunn making these comments but he's the first to go 'on the record.'

This is not good, not good at all!!!!!!!!!!!

Lip

Wait, so one of the most prolific HR hitters didn't just suddenly fall off the map?

Color me shocked.

Clean this organization the **** up.

soxinem1
05-29-2011, 08:11 PM
How do you spend $130 million on a team, just under $1 BILLION the last six seasons, have the best groundskeeper and trainer in the business, and NOT employ enough advance scouting?

That is like buying your kids new winter coats, sweaters, and insulated snowpants, then sending them outside with nothing on their feet. :scratch:

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 08:40 PM
Sox:

Let's be clear. We don't know if the Sox aren't hiring enough advanced scouts. Dunn said they are not getting accurate information and tendencies. Mark Gonzales of the Tribune said he heard some things along these lines in Texas. (Don't know if it was from Dunn or another player...)

Lip

Zakath
05-29-2011, 10:41 PM
Santos has been awesome, too.

All our starters have been reliable, except for the wildly inconsistent Jackson.

Danks is now reliably bad. You can credit a number of his losses to lack of run support, but his BAA is now approaching .300 and his WHIP is now over 1.5.

Nellie_Fox
05-29-2011, 11:15 PM
Wait, so one of the most prolific HR hitters didn't just suddenly fall off the map?

Color me shocked.

Clean this organization the **** up.You've got to be kidding me. You really think that Dunn is swinging over the top of every fastball he sees because he doesn't get a good enough scouting report on the pitcher?

"I need to know in advance that it's going to be thigh-high and center cut, or I just can't react to it!"

StillMissOzzie
05-29-2011, 11:33 PM
Another swing and a miss by Adam Dunn.

He should keep his mouth shut- at least until he gets his first hit off a lefty- he looks like the Cory Snyder of this era.

You are not gonna believe this, but I was just thinking the exact same thing - that Adam Dunn, so far, has been nothing but a latter-day Cory Snyder. I remember being happy that the Sox had picked up Snyder, and he turned out to be a big bust here. Another case of picking up a Sox-killer who can't replicate their success once they are on the Sox.
And now, there's Adam Dunn. The K's are piling up in droves, anot hitting a lick, and looking overmatched against even the most mundane of lefties.

SMO
:gulp:

chisoxfanatic
05-29-2011, 11:57 PM
I personally see Dunn as a clubhouse cancer. Anyone who would go to the media and call out someone in their organization instead of dealing with it internally is an assbag.

TDog
05-30-2011, 12:16 AM
You've got to be kidding me. You really think that Dunn is swinging over the top of every fastball he sees because he doesn't get a good enough scouting report on the pitcher?

"I need to know in advance that it's going to be thigh-high and center cut, or I just can't react to it!"

Many White Sox fans used to complain about Frank Thomas being a whiner when he would complain that batting practice was being thrown too hard. It amazes me that when the biggest reason the Sox have a losing record who also happens to be the biggest investment in the offseason and is shaping up to be the team's biggest future albatross complains about the scouting department, fans rush to his defense.

Imagine how good Konerko would be if the Sox had better scouting.

The Nationals spent big money on one middle-of-the-lineup free agent during the offseason. They didn't let Dunn go because they were cheap.

DirtySox
05-30-2011, 12:34 AM
I personally see Dunn as a clubhouse cancer.

Overreact much?

GoSox4
05-30-2011, 12:59 AM
Here's some advise for Dunn... They're going to throw a fastball right by you. Now get the bat off of your shoulder, and try not to pull anything walking back to the dugout.


Wow, I guess I can be a scout too.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 02:22 AM
I personally see Dunn as a clubhouse cancer. Anyone who would go to the media and call out someone in their organization instead of dealing with it internally is an assbag.

Too bad he's been described as the exact opposite with every team he's been with. Same goes for his hitting.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 02:22 AM
Here's some advise for Dunn... They're going to throw a fastball right by you. Now get the bat off of your shoulder, and try not to pull anything walking back to the dugout.


Wow, I guess I can be a scout too.

Dunn isn't the only one who has trouble getting hits off of no name pitchers. In fact, he got four walks in the game against Kyle Drabek, meanwhile the rest of the guys in the lineup, except for Pierre, were still taking his fastball right there and swinging at the breaking stuff he couldn't get over the plate.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 02:40 AM
Many White Sox fans used to complain about Frank Thomas being a whiner when he would complain that batting practice was being thrown too hard. It amazes me that when the biggest reason the Sox have a losing record who also happens to be the biggest investment in the offseason and is shaping up to be the team's biggest future albatross complains about the scouting department, fans rush to his defense.

Imagine how good Konerko would be if the Sox had better scouting.

The Nationals spent big money on one middle-of-the-lineup free agent during the offseason. They didn't let Dunn go because they were cheap.

He's also the biggest scape goat right now.

He didn't blow those games in April.

Also, Alex Rios isn't exactly tearing it up offensively either.

How about our "stud" second baseman for that matter?

I'm sorry, but I'm more inclined to believe the guy who had averaged 40+ HR and 100+ RBI the past 7 seasons when it comes to a case of questioning the advanced scouting of team that has for quite some time had trouble with pitchers they've never seen before.

doublem23
05-30-2011, 03:39 AM
You've got to be kidding me. You really think that Dunn is swinging over the top of every fastball he sees because he doesn't get a good enough scouting report on the pitcher?

"I need to know in advance that it's going to be thigh-high and center cut, or I just can't react to it!"

Seriously, I appreciate Dunn for bringing whatever to the surface, but man, his bat looks sloooooooooooow right now. They're not even pitching him like he can hit right now.

asindc
05-30-2011, 07:11 AM
He's also the biggest scape goat right now.

He didn't blow those games in April.

Also, Alex Rios isn't exactly tearing it up offensively either.

How about our "stud" second baseman for that matter?

I'm sorry, but I'm more inclined to believe the guy who had averaged 40+ HR and 100+ RBI the past 7 seasons when it comes to a case of questioning the advanced scouting of team that has for quite some time had trouble with pitchers they've never seen before.

None of which explains why Dunn looks bad against even pitchers he has faced before like Brad Penny. When someone is batting .188, leads the league in Ks, and has consistently failed to drive in a run with a teammate on 3rd and less than two outs, he is most definitely not being scapegoated. As others have noted, he is being beat by average fastballs from average pitchers. BA, Wise, Erstad, Kotsay, Teahen, and Swisher never looked this bad for this long a stretch and, in BA's case, he couldn't hit a breaking ball to save his career.

As I have noted whenever the subject of pitchers not faced before comes up, the NYY have the same problem. Maybe that's why Randy Winn didn't work out for them last year. Check out these two posts from last year. The first links to a story that you might find interesting:
http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2543329&postcount=106

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2541704&postcount=48

Frontman
05-30-2011, 09:05 AM
I don't think Dunn said anything we didn't already suspect. That being said, I'm beginning to agree with blowing up the whole staff. Ozzie has been blaming everyone and everything in sight; and now both Dunn and Danks are blaming everyone and everything else in sight.

I hope SOMEONE takes the lead, gets this team to FOCUS, and get back on track. Might not save this season; but it might at least get the team to play and act professionally.

Frontman
05-30-2011, 09:07 AM
I personally see Dunn as a clubhouse cancer. Anyone who would go to the media and call out someone in their organization instead of dealing with it internally is an assbag.

That all depends on if Dunn has said something behind the scenes now, doesn't it? He might of said something to Ozzie/Walk/Kenny; got blown off, and decided to air it out in the media.

harwar
05-30-2011, 10:13 AM
i've heard this before .. incompetence, as a guiding principal, seems to be becoming a watchword in the White Sox organization .. as for Dunn, he reminds me more and more of Rob Deer, except that Deer seemed to be able to get a hold of one every now and then .. Dunn's bat speed is so slow that i wonder at times if he has an injury that he's hiding

Lip Man 1
05-30-2011, 11:52 AM
Front:

Nice thought but who EXACTLY is around that can lead? There are no vocal clubhouse leaders around. Ozzie has said to the media in the past he leads the team in the clubhouse.

If true that's a situation that can't be fixed.

Lip

Tragg
05-30-2011, 12:20 PM
Dunn probably has no standing to say anything; but if the charges are true, it's an outrage.

Clean house, JR

Frontman
05-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Front:

Nice thought but who EXACTLY is around that can lead? There are no vocal clubhouse leaders around. Ozzie has said to the media in the past he leads the team in the clubhouse.

If true that's a situation that can't be fixed.

Lip

The sad thing is that the team leaders tend to be the quiet ones (Konerko, to a lesser extent, Buehrle.) AJ isn't a leader per se, but he should have enough pride to say something.

Heck, I'd be happy if Omar stepped up and said something.

This team is just pathetic this year.

twentywontowin
05-30-2011, 01:08 PM
Front:

Nice thought but who EXACTLY is around that can lead? There are no vocal clubhouse leaders around.
Lip

Hire Carl Everett for $100k to just hang around the clubhouse and travel with the team.

Might be the only guy since 2005 who was willing to man the **** up in the clubhouse.

DickAllen72
05-30-2011, 01:19 PM
Hire Carl Everett for $100k to just hang around the clubhouse and travel with the team.

Might be the only guy since 2005 who was willing to man the **** up in the clubhouse.
I agree. :thumbsup:

Paulwny
05-30-2011, 01:31 PM
The sad thing is that the team leaders tend to be the quiet ones (Konerko, to a lesser extent, Buehrle.) AJ isn't a leader per se, but he should have enough pride to say something.

Heck, I'd be happy if Omar stepped up and said something.

This team is just pathetic this year.


The players may be afraid to get into another player's face.
This happened in 2007 and Oz said, " I'm the one that gets into players' butts."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2009/07/pierzynski_and_ramirez_go_at_i.html

tstrike2000
05-30-2011, 02:11 PM
Maybe Dunn will return to form if we can send him back into surgery and have the doctors install an artificial appendix.

SBSoxFan
05-30-2011, 02:17 PM
You've got to be kidding me. You really think that Dunn is swinging over the top of every fastball he sees because he doesn't get a good enough scouting report on the pitcher?

"I need to know in advance that it's going to be thigh-high and center cut, or I just can't react to it!"

I got the impression the OP was suggesting Dunn had been using a performance enhancing substance.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 02:42 PM
I got the impression the OP was suggesting Dunn had been using a performance enhancing substance.

I was not suggesting that at all.

I'm one of the few people in Adam's corner.

TDog
05-30-2011, 03:31 PM
He's also the biggest scape goat right now.

He didn't blow those games in April.

Also, Alex Rios isn't exactly tearing it up offensively either.

How about our "stud" second baseman for that matter?

I'm sorry, but I'm more inclined to believe the guy who had averaged 40+ HR and 100+ RBI the past 7 seasons when it comes to a case of questioning the advanced scouting of team that has for quite some time had trouble with pitchers they've never seen before.

Most teams have trouble with pitchers they've never seen before. Last year the Sox had a winning record against pitchers they had never seen before. Some of that was due to the Sox winning low-scoring games with other teams having never seen the Sox starters. In the Liriano no-hitter, I thought the Sox were relying too much on their advanced scouting because Liriano had a changeup working that hadn't been there for him in his previous starts. Yankees fans complained similarly when a former Mets draft pick, Phil Humber, took a no-hitter deep into the game against them at home.

Dunn isn't the reason outfield defense as much as relief pitching blew games in April. Dunn adds nothing to the defense (and I believe any player short of a .300 hitter with power numbers who is making that kind of money should help the defense), unlike Beckham and Rios. It's hard to believe that someone who came to the Sox with so much fanfare for so much money for so many years can appear to be the worst hitter on the team and complain about the scouting.

As much whining as Nick Swisher did, I don't think he ever complained about the scouting.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2011, 04:13 PM
SIGN NATE SCHIERHOLTZ!!!!!!!!!

:D:

Lip

TDog
05-30-2011, 05:09 PM
SIGN NATE SCHIERHOLTZ!!!!!!!!!

:D:

Lip

In today's Giants game, the starting pitchers have been more dangerous offensively than Adam Dunn has looked this year.

It is nice, though, that you have the integrity not to backtrack on your belief that the White Sox were right in signing a designated hitter who struck out in more than 30 percent of his plate appearances last year instead of improving an outfield defense that would lose games for the Sox early in the season.

Since December, I have been mystified by people who believed Adam Dunn would help the Sox this year. I believe I had the integrity to post accordingly in December when it was unpopular. I was right, and people are still posting as if I was wrong.

The Critic
05-30-2011, 05:15 PM
Another swing and a miss by Adam Dunn.

He should keep his mouth shut- at least until he gets his first hit off a lefty- he looks like the Cory Snyder of this era.

Absolutely!
It's not like Dunn has gotten any hits off of anyone else.
Sounds like he's looking for someone to blame for his failure off of one guy they didn't have a report on. Too bad he can't find scapegoats for all his embarrassing whiffs on breaking balls in the dirt.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 05:15 PM
In today's Giants game, the starting pitchers have been more dangerous offensively than Adam Dunn has looked this year.

It is nice, though, that you have the integrity not to backtrack on your belief that the White Sox were right in signing a designated hitter who struck out in more than 30 percent of his plate appearances last year instead of improving an outfield defense that would lose games for the Sox early in the season.

Since December, I have been mystified by people who believed Adam Dunn would help the Sox this year. I believe I had the integrity to post accordingly in December when it was unpopular. I was right, and people are still posting as if I was wrong.

It's called a track record.

Dunn had quite a resume when he was signed. You better believe he would have been given a deal similar to the one that KW gave him if the Sox hadn't signed him.

There was nothing that would indicate that he was going to be this bad.

I mean, he was leaving a pitcher's park in Washington, to an extreme hitters park in the Cell.

Pretty much everyone, experts and fans included, had him penciled in for close to 50 HR this season.

RANDY WILES
05-30-2011, 06:23 PM
I got an answer back from Mark Gonzales to this. For those who don't know Gonzo has told me often in the past about the job Bryan Little and the advanced scouts do. I've wondered about the players getting accurate information in the past when they'd be made to look like bad Little Leaguers trying to hit another "no-name" pitcher.

I fully expected Mark to say along the lines of, 'no truth to Dunn's charge. Those guys are doing the job in the advanced scouting department...'

Turns out that's NOT what he said. I think the Sox find themselves in another embarrassing situation.

Here's Gonzo's answer:

"I might believe him. Perez had pitched in only five major league games prior to Saturday, but minor league video is accessible. And I heard in Texas that the reports have stated merely the obvious and don't elaborate on the tendencies of players and managers. Something I plan to probe. An advance scout must provide tendencies on managers. College teams do this."

I surmise that it's not just Dunn making these comments but he's the first to go 'on the record.'

This is not good, not good at all!!!!!!!!!!!

Lip

Then why wouldn't Ozzie or KW step in---they are in charge------aren't they?

TDog
05-30-2011, 06:40 PM
It's called a track record.

Dunn had quite a resume when he was signed. You better believe he would have been given a deal similar to the one that KW gave him if the Sox hadn't signed him.

There was nothing that would indicate that he was going to be this bad.

I mean, he was leaving a pitcher's park in Washington, to an extreme hitters park in the Cell.

Pretty much everyone, experts and fans included, had him penciled in for close to 50 HR this season.

My argument before the season started was that Dunn's track record indicated he would not help the White Sox. Big strikeout/low batting-average hitters changing leagues do no generally make the transition well. My argument was that I had watched Adam Dunn for years and never believed he was a great hitter.

If there are fans and experts who only look at stats and ignore the red-flag stats, if people honestly believe a good on-base percentage is more important than a poor batting average and high number of strikeouts don't matter for a middle-of-the-order hitter, it is a condemnation of baseball analysis than a surprise decline in performance.

But you are right in that I didn't expect Dunn to be hitting this poorly. I didn't believe he would help the Sox much, but I thought he would be hitting .220 with nine or 10 home runs by the end of May.

TomBradley72
05-30-2011, 06:45 PM
It's called a track record.



That track record includes a career batting average of .235 w/RISP, a batting average in the .140's vs. lefty relievers and in the .230's vs. lefties overall, and 190 strike outs every year.

So even if he returns to career level performance this is a VERY flawed designated hitter- especially for $15 million/year.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 06:45 PM
My argument before the season started was that Dunn's track record indicated he would not help the White Sox. Big strikeout/low batting-average hitters changing leagues do no generally make the transition well. My argument was that I had watched Adam Dunn for years and never believed he was a great hitter.

If there are fans and experts who only look at stats and ignore the red-flag stats, if people honestly believe a good on-base percentage is more important than a poor batting average and high number of strikeouts don't matter for a middle-of-the-order hitter, it is a condemnation of baseball analysis than a surprise decline in performance.

But you are right in that I didn't expect Dunn to be hitting this poorly. I didn't believe he would help the Sox much, but I thought he would be hitting .220 with nine or 10 home runs by the end of May.

Jim Thome did alright.

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 06:47 PM
That track record includes a career batting average of .235 w/RISP, a batting average in the .140's vs. lefty relievers and in the .230's vs. lefties overall, and 190 strike outs every year.

So even if he returns to career level performance this is a VERY flawed designated hitter- especially for $15 million/year.

Despite that, he's still driving in around 100 runs each year.

That's all that matters.

I will concede, when Adam is not driving in runs, he's about as useful as Tony Pena. That's the way it's been unfortunately.

TDog
05-30-2011, 07:22 PM
Jim Thome did alright.

Jim Thome was a .300 hitter when he went to the Phillies a a free agent. He was injured in his last season with the Phillies, and they sent him back to the American League to make room for Ryan Howard.

I believe RBIs is a more important stat than on-base percentage if you're looking retrospectively on how a player has contributed rather than attempting to use stats to predict how a player will do. The problem is that if you have a player who strikes out nearly 200 times a year, he is going to miss a lot of RBI opportunities. You can drive in runs withlout hitting the ball well, but you can't get an RBI on a strikeout.

There just aren't a big number of jam-shots falling in when you strike out that much. There are fewer fly balls that might carry out of a hitters park if you strike out that much.

I have wanted desperately for Adam Dunn to succeed since he signed with the Sox. But I've been watching him for years, and I never believed he would look good in the White Sox lineup.

GoSox4
05-30-2011, 09:13 PM
It seems like every team Dunn has every played for has been terrible...

JermaineDye05
05-30-2011, 11:13 PM
It seems like every team Dunn has every played for has been terrible...

That's really not fair considering he was on the Nats for a couple seasons and the time he was with the Reds, they were a joke.

Right now, he's surrounded by a ton of guys underperforming like him.

billcissell
05-31-2011, 08:18 AM
Let's put it this way: as of right now it was a bad decision to sign Adam Dunn. When you take into consideration the amount he's being paid and his performance, it's pretty simple.

Does he suddenly find his bat and start hitting now that it's getting warm out? Maybe. We do know we can't count on him being among the league leaders in strikeouts. That's a given. And that means a lot of runners left on base.

At this point, Jim Thome looks like an attractive alternative. And we could have gotten him for a whole lot less than what Dunn is being paid.

GoSox2K3
05-31-2011, 09:51 AM
In today's Giants game, the starting pitchers have been more dangerous offensively than Adam Dunn has looked this year.

It is nice, though, that you have the integrity not to backtrack on your belief that the White Sox were right in signing a designated hitter who struck out in more than 30 percent of his plate appearances last year instead of improving an outfield defense that would lose games for the Sox early in the season.

Since December, I have been mystified by people who believed Adam Dunn would help the Sox this year. I believe I had the integrity to post accordingly in December when it was unpopular. I was right, and people are still posting as if I was wrong.

We at WSI, are humbly impressed with your ability to pat yourself on the back.:rolleyes:

howzer12
06-04-2011, 10:43 PM
Adam Dunn is the worst player to wear a White Sox uniform in the 110 year existence of the franchise. Please Kenny - cut him immediately and take the hit. It's better than having to watch that useless sack of garbage strike out.

JermaineDye05
06-04-2011, 10:47 PM
Adam Dunn is the worst player to wear a White Sox uniform in the 110 year existence of the franchise. Please Kenny - cut him immediately and take the hit. It's better than having to watch that useless sack of garbage strike out.

:facepalm:

LongLiveFisk
06-04-2011, 10:49 PM
Adam Dunn is the worst player to wear a White Sox uniform in the 110 year existence of the franchise. Please Kenny - cut him immediately and take the hit. It's better than having to watch that useless sack of garbage strike out.

Wow, we're all at our wit's end with Dunn's performance but that's a bit harsh, don't you think?

FielderJones
06-04-2011, 11:20 PM
Adam Dunn is the worst player to wear a White Sox uniform in the 110 year existence of the franchise.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/images/headshot_1439.jpg
"Hi!"

spongyfungy
06-05-2011, 12:38 PM
To get back to the original point, do the White Sox have something like this? (http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2486924)

It reminded of the article about the Rockies using the video Ipod in '06 for advanced video scouting. The video coordinator would chop up AB's against the pitchers they've faced / about to face and categorize each video with relevant tags. Todd Helton has every swing he's ever taken since '98.

With the advent of tablets such as the Ipad, I wonder if the Sox are taking advantage of this. For me personally I would love to do this as a job. I love chopping up highlights and encoding / transcoding. You can throw me in a dungeon and lock me up.

flo-B-flo
06-06-2011, 11:33 AM
....at high out of the strike zone fastballs with an upper cut swing........how's that for a tendency?.......

JC456
06-06-2011, 11:54 AM
Well maybe the scouting could help with adjustments, but the fact remains this team takes way too many fat pitches and swings at way too many bad pitches. It's that simple as I see it. BTW, all of them! They want to work the pitcher, or in other words want to see more pitches. Well the league has caught up to that philosphy with the Sox and the starters on opposing teams now throw many more first pitch fast balls because they know the Sox players take those pitches far too often.

What the Sox fail to recognize is you can get a starter out of the game by actually shelling him by hitting the freebies they want to take. I'll never understand why a hitter would only want to swing at one pitch an at bat and that pitch most times isn't even a strike, but that is our team!!!! Can't get a hit until you swing the bat! You won't be consistent until you swing more than one swing an at bat.

joshua1024
06-06-2011, 12:06 PM
:(:Can anyone remind me whether the Sox have the option to send Dunn to the minors for awhile, until he gets his stroke back (if ever)? 4 strike outs one day; 3 strike outs the next. Despite his swagger and ability to "talk a good game," I know that Dunn must be a head case right now and none of us should have confidence that he's going to be able to do anything decent this year unless something radically changes, and fast. Are the minors an option for a guy with his "condition"?

soltrain21
06-06-2011, 12:10 PM
:(:Can anyone remind me whether the Sox have the option to send Dunn to the minors for awhile, until he gets his stroke back (if ever)? 4 strike outs one day; 3 strike outs the next. Despite his swagger and ability to "talk a good game," I know that Dunn must be a head case right now and none of us should have confidence that he's going to be able to do anything decent this year unless something radically changes, and fast. Are the minors an option for a guy with his "condition"?

Ha. They are not sending Adam Dunn to the freaking minors.

Lip Man 1
06-06-2011, 12:19 PM
Well the Sox are facing a kid pitcher they've never seen before Monday night. I wonder if the scouting report will be accurate?

I wonder if it will even matter.

Lip