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View Full Version : Time to fire Ozzie yet?


A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 06:45 PM
Just a simple, thumbs up or thumbs down will do.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 06:45 PM
I vote in the affirmative.

WhiteSox5187
05-28-2011, 06:53 PM
No, because believe it or not we actually are playing better. Now if they get swept by Boston and have a horrid homestand it will be time.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 06:55 PM
No, not yet. But postgame on September 28 might be ok.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 07:11 PM
Time has come today!

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 07:18 PM
Time has come today!

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Noneck
05-28-2011, 07:21 PM
Firing will only be a symbolic move. Makes no sense to put his sidekick at the helm. A manager outside the organization wont be able to assemble his coaching staff at this point. Let ozwaldo suffer like we have to and let him earn his money for the rest of this year.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 07:22 PM
Firing will only be a symbolic move. Makes no sense to put his sidekick at the helm. A manager outside the organization wont be able to assemble his coaching staff at this point. Let ozwaldo suffer like we have do and let him earn his money for the rest of this year.

No. You don't have to make Cora the interim manager. I'm not saying he would lead us to the playoffs, but Buddy Bell is in the organization. He could manage the Sox for the balance of the season.

Noneck
05-28-2011, 07:24 PM
No. You don't have to make Cora the interim manager. I'm not saying he would lead us to the playoffs, but Buddy Bell is in the organization. He could manage the Sox for the balance of the season.

I'm not for a interim manager, let oz suffer through this crap and punch the time clock everyday.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 07:27 PM
I'm not for a interim manager, let oz suffer through this crap and punch the time clock everyday.

If we keep losing, I think it will get to Ozzie and he'll say one day: "**** this ****!!! I'm going back to ****ing Miami!"

Noneck
05-28-2011, 07:29 PM
If we keep losing, I think it will get to Ozzie and he'll say one day: "**** this ****!!! I'm going back to ****ing Miami!"

Maybe so and then he can be known a quitter.

canOcorn
05-28-2011, 07:31 PM
We should have fired this buffoon years ago.

sullythered
05-28-2011, 07:31 PM
That depends. If we fire Ozzie will Adam Dunn and Alex Rios stop being terrible at baseball?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-28-2011, 07:32 PM
I'm not for a interim manager, let oz suffer through this crap and punch the time clock everyday.

I'd rather try to get back into it with a different manager, rather than just raise the white flag before Memorial Day. It's obvious that Ozzie has no desire to be here anymore, so why make the team, organization, and the players suffer under a manager who doesn't care?

Can Ozzie, Cora (Ozzie Lite), and Walker.

Noneck
05-28-2011, 07:34 PM
Can Ozzie, Cora (Ozzie Lite), and Walker.


Its really tough for a decent manager to assemble a competent coaching staff at this stage of the season. This has to wait till season end.

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 07:54 PM
Its really tough for a decent manager to assemble a competent coaching staff at this stage of the season. This has to wait till season end.

I'm tired of the same excuse for not firing him, year after year.

ode to veeck
05-28-2011, 08:03 PM
they have been playing better, the last two games notwithstanding

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 08:15 PM
they have been playing better, the last two games notwithstanding

And Ozzie has been doing everything he can to help them lose. He's a boat anchor.

russ99
05-28-2011, 08:21 PM
Time to fire Walker, get some one else in there who's not a member of the old boy network to shake up the staff, give a differing viewpoint.

I feel bad for Ozzie, he's trying everything and anything to get the team to win, change the lineup endlessly and these stiffs just won't hit. Not only that, but he tried to get Walker replaced last year and Jerry wouldn't go for it.

canOcorn
05-28-2011, 08:27 PM
Time to fire Walker, get some one else in there who's not a member of the old boy network to shake up the staff, give a differing viewpoint.

I feel bad for Ozzie, he's trying everything and anything to get the team to win, change the lineup endlessly and these stiffs just won't hit. Not only that, but he tried to get Walker replaced last year and Jerry wouldn't go for it.

How 'bout getting rid of the guy who created the old boy network? Ozzie only surrounds himself with yes men. And as far as feeling sorry for him? **** that, he's dug his stubborn ass heels in as far as possible this year.

russ99
05-28-2011, 08:30 PM
How 'bout getting rid of the guy who created the old boy network? Ozzie only surrounds himself with yes men. And as far as feeling sorry for him? **** that, he's dug his stubborn ass heels in as far as possible this year.

Did you even read the post? He tried to get Walker fired last year. He's stuck with the coaching staff even if he wanted to make a change.

And how has he "dug in his stubborn ass heels in"? More whining about bunting? Some prefer to paint that as ego serving and not caring, I see that as trying anything to get the team going. He's tried and succeeded at that before.

Never mind, keep up the witch hunt. I'm going to enjoy my weekend.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 08:34 PM
Did you even read the post? He tried to get Walker fired last year. He's stuck with the coaching staff even if he wanted to make a change.

And how has he "dug in his stubborn ass heels in"? More whining about bunting? Some prefer to paint that as ego serving and not caring, I see that as trying anything to get the team going. He's tried and succeeded at that before.

Never mind, keep up the witch hunt. I'm going to enjoy my weekend.

http://archive.chicagobreakingsports.com/2010/04/ozzie-on-hitting-woes-its-not-walkers-fault.html

Riiight. You mean by saying the exact same thing last year as he is this year? Except last year he was saying it was his OWN fault...

JB98
05-28-2011, 08:46 PM
Did you even read the post? He tried to get Walker fired last year. He's stuck with the coaching staff even if he wanted to make a change.

And how has he "dug in his stubborn ass heels in"? More whining about bunting? Some prefer to paint that as ego serving and not caring, I see that as trying anything to get the team going. He's tried and succeeded at that before.

Never mind, keep up the witch hunt. I'm going to enjoy my weekend.

Witch hunt? I think they should all go (GM included) except for Cooper.

I'm not singling out anybody.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 08:51 PM
Russ:

Kenny Williams has specifically told the media in the past (and more than once) that any coaching decisions (hiring - firing) are up to Ozzie. Period.

So either Kenny is outright lying or your contention that Ozzie is forced to keep the coaches that he has is wrong.

Remember Ozzie has claimed he fired Tim Raines.

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 08:56 PM
Yes. Fire Ozzie. And Walker, too.

I'm OK with Buddy Bell as an interim for the rest of the season.

Cooper most definitely needs to stay.

KW needs to be kicked upstairs and Hahn made the GM.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 10:25 PM
Yes. Fire Ozzie. And Walker, too.

I'm OK with Buddy Bell as an interim for the rest of the season.

Cooper most definitely needs to stay.

KW needs to be kicked upstairs and Hahn made the GM.

I would get rid of KW outright. Because Reinsdorf trusts him so much, KW would become the White Sox equivalent of Pully.

Boondock Saint
05-28-2011, 10:59 PM
It's been time to fire Ozzie for some time.

samurai_sox
05-29-2011, 12:32 AM
You know how much all this inconsistency and losing is getting to me?

I'll just say this....

I wouldn't mind seeing Ozzie fired and picking up Bobby Valentine, thats right I said it.

ChiSox81
05-29-2011, 12:54 AM
Lets let this season play out. If they can't win this crappy division with a 120 million dollar payroll then I want the coaching staff and the front office shown the door.

tstrike2000
05-29-2011, 01:22 AM
Ozzie bitches and complains that the team only played for 9 innings today and then laid flat in extra innings. This is besides the fact I can hardly understand a damn thing he says between all the bleeps. Ozzie, you need to look in the mirror, pal. Outside of Don Cooper, IMO this whole coaching staff is a joke. Ozzie has mismanaged so many games just this season alone, when is someone going to hold him accountable? We have a lineup full of free swingers, but how about somebody help these guys get some kind of approach up at the plate. Work the damn count and for crying out loud, teach these guys how to bunt!

soxfanreggie
05-29-2011, 02:22 AM
Lets let this season play out. If they can't win this crappy division with a 120 million dollar payroll then I want the coaching staff and the front office shown the door.

I could see this happening, but I want Walker out the door now.

HaroMaster87
05-29-2011, 03:27 AM
yup...totally Ozzie's fault that almost everyone is hitting below career averages and no one can hit with risp.

smh...

Oh, and i love these threads...it always full of the posters who only post when someone starts a "fire Ozzie" thread...

doublem23
05-29-2011, 03:58 AM
We've more or less seen the same garbage from the Sox since roughly 2/3 or 3/4 of the way through the 2006 season and they have never been able to pull themselves out of that funk since then. Save for that fluke division title in 2008 which appears to be the result of (A) being the least ****ty team in a ****ty, ****ty division and (B) getting to-date career years from Floyd and Danks as well as one of Buehrle's best years ever, the lone constant really has been a couple of players; Paulie, Buehrle, AJ, and Thornton, and the coaching staff.

Can't fire the players.

Viva Medias B's
05-29-2011, 09:23 AM
yup...totally Ozzie's fault that almost everyone is hitting below career averages and no one can hit with risp.

smh...

Oh, and i love these threads...it always full of the posters who only post when someone starts a "fire Ozzie" thread...

The vote total is running 3-1 in favor of firing Guillen. No one is granting absolution to Dunn and other underperforming players. However, Guillen is hardly without fault.

LITTLE NELL
05-29-2011, 10:34 AM
Its time for Ozzie and the whole coaching staff to depart.
If the new guy comes in and can't turn it around, the team needs to be blown up at the end of the year and maybe sooner if anyone wants any of these guys.

tstrike2000
05-29-2011, 11:07 AM
Its time for Ozzie and the whole coaching staff to depart.
If the new guy comes in and can't turn it around, the team needs to be blown up at the end of the year and maybe sooner if anyone wants any of these guys.

Ozzie needs to go, but we can only blow the team up so much. Alexei is signed through '15, Rios and Dunn until 2014, Paulie till 2013, Teahen and AJ through '12. Not that Alexei or Paulie are a problem right now, but we don't have a lot of flexibility at the moment with some of those other contracts. There's always a trade idea, but who knows how much money we'd need to eat to make it happen.

spawn
05-29-2011, 01:05 PM
I'm starting to believe he should go, especially after yesterday. I'm getting tired of him not taking responsibility for his mistakes in managing a game and always throwing it on the players. Yesterday may have been the last straw for me. I mean, it was mentioned in another thread, but Dunn hitting agains a lefty with 1 out and a man on third? It was pretty damn obvious you pinch hit Quentin for Dunn. That's what lost them the game yesterday. But Ozzie never seems to think he's at fault for anything. That's just unacceptable in my book.

soxfan43
05-29-2011, 01:11 PM
I'd much rather fire Kenny at this point. He built this team, he's in charge of this crap minor league system and the lack of any prospects, especially from the Latin American countries. But I would also fire Ozzie at the end of the year. I agree with many of the posters that firing hhim mid season probably won't accomplish much since you'd either go with Cora or some interim guy outside the org who can't throw a good staff together.

PaleHoser
05-29-2011, 03:53 PM
Its really tough for a decent manager to assemble a competent coaching staff at this stage of the season.

Could a fresh set of eyes be any worse? I don't think so.

Ozzie's quotes:

Im drained now. I feel like Im in September right now."

You can ask my coaches. They feel the same way. And were not even in f---ing June.

My comments:

People ask why this club is dead? Energy - both positive and negative - is contagious. The manager and coaches are drained? I don't care how much money you make or how much success you've had in the past. That attitude and the lethargy that comes with it rubs off on people.

These statements are proof positive that Ozzie must go. Fire him now. He can go home to South Beach and get his rest, post his Internet content and we can try to salvage what's left of the season.

sox1970
05-29-2011, 03:54 PM
Can I change my vote?

Parrothead
05-29-2011, 03:57 PM
The vote total is running 3-1 in favor of firing Guillen. No one is granting absolution to Dunn and other underperforming players. However, Guillen is hardly without fault.

That was not the question. If the question was "what players should be fired" I am sure Dunn et al would be the frontrunners.

thomas35forever
05-29-2011, 04:22 PM
After a long time, probably longer than I should have, the latest tirade has pushed me off the Ozzie bandwagon for good. The team sucks and he's not doing himself any favors by complaining about the fan base. Questionable managing is one thing, but firing off insults at the people who give him his check is quite another. He needs to go.

soxfanreggie
05-29-2011, 04:37 PM
yup...totally Ozzie's fault that almost everyone is hitting below career averages and no one can hit with risp.

smh...

Oh, and i love these threads...it always full of the posters who only post when someone starts a "fire Ozzie" thread...

Sometimes a corporation struggles and the CEO is fired; sometimes an athletic department fails and an athletic director is fired...sometimes you're the fall guy if the group you manage is underperforming. Is it always fair? No. Does it happen in many different areas of life? Yes.

In this situation, Ozzie and staff have at least some responsibility. Some here would put most of the blame on them, but I don't think you can argue that the coaches are blame free.

tstrike2000
05-29-2011, 04:43 PM
yup...totally Ozzie's fault that almost everyone is hitting below career averages and no one can hit with risp.

smh...

Oh, and i love these threads...it always full of the posters who only post when someone starts a "fire Ozzie" thread...

Hitters aside, maybe we should fire Ozzie because he's a bad manager.

nccwsfan
05-29-2011, 04:49 PM
It's been awhile since posting here but after yesterday's debacle I had finally come to the conclusion that the KW/Ozzie era had run its course and that it was time to turn this team to a new direction. This is 07', 09', 10' all over again, and to expect different results is the definition of insanity.

Cooper should be retained regardless of the next regime and I'm OK with seeing what Hahn can do. Aside from that I'm ready to see the overhaul this organization desperately needs...

Noneck
05-29-2011, 04:52 PM
This team is dead in the water. I still don't want Guillen to get off the hook and hear about him lounging on the beach sipping cuba libres. I want him to suffer like us Sox fans have to and then for him to embarrass himself out of future employment.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 04:58 PM
That's an interesting point. Ozzie has claimed in public to the media that he doesn't need this job and that if the Sox fire him he'll get 12 other offers.

I honestly wonder how true that statement is.

Lip

nccwsfan
05-29-2011, 05:04 PM
That's an interesting point. Ozzie has claimed in public to the media that he doesn't need this job and that if the Sox fire him he'll get 12 other offers.

I honestly wonder how true that statement is.

Lip

Florida Marlins are the obvious fit (although it's hard to justify them needing a manager considering the way they play). Any team that is looking to make a marketing splash would hire him for the small term gain. Long term it would be a slow death (a la Ditka on the Saints).

DSpivack
05-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Florida Marlins are the obvious fit (although it's hard to justify them needing a manager considering the way they play). Any team that is looking to make a marketing splash would hire him for the small term gain. Long term it would be a slow death (a la Ditka on the Saints).

Edwin Rodriguez seems to be doing a fine job there.

soxfanreggie
05-29-2011, 05:42 PM
That's an interesting point. Ozzie has claimed in public to the media that he doesn't need this job and that if the Sox fire him he'll get 12 other offers.

I honestly wonder how true that statement is.

Lip

Did he specifically say MLB and/or head coaching offers? I can think of some Independent League teams that would welcome him just for the draw. I would also think he'd have some offers from Venezuela.

HaroMaster87
05-29-2011, 05:46 PM
Hitters aside, maybe we should fire Ozzie because he's a bad manager.

So did he just get bad this year or was he always bad and just let him stick around for 7 years now?

I just think he's the least of the problems going on here...I'd whack KW first. He built this turd...

Boondock Saint
05-29-2011, 05:59 PM
So did he just get bad this year or was he always bad and just let him stick around for 7 years now?

The latter. Come on now, we've been complaining about stupid **** Ozzie does FOR YEARS on here. From bunting Juan Pierre over to 2nd base to playing Griffey in center, to using Matt Thornton as a LOOGY when he was our only reliable reliever, to being the ONLY person who couldn't see that guys were starting to hit the ball hard against Javy and inexplicably leaving him in for 1-2 more innings, to Darin Erstad and Rob Mackowiak not only playing every day, but being your every day center fielder, to having Juan Pierre DH while TCQ plays the field, etc...

The guy ****s up ALL THE TIME.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2011, 08:29 PM
The latter. Come on now, we've been complaining about stupid **** Ozzie does FOR YEARS on here. From bunting Juan Pierre over to 2nd base to playing Griffey in center, to using Matt Thornton as a LOOGY when he was our only reliable reliever, to being the ONLY person who couldn't see that guys were starting to hit the ball hard against Javy and inexplicably leaving him in for 1-2 more innings, to Darin Erstad and Rob Mackowiak not only playing every day, but being your every day center fielder, to having Juan Pierre DH while TCQ plays the field, etc...

The guy ****s up ALL THE TIME.

I think Ozzie was pretty good in 2004 and 2005. I think winning the World Series in his second year as manager was is most ways the best thing ever to happen to him, but in one way was the worst thing ever to happen to him as a manager. I think winning the World Series made Ozzie think he had all the answers and thus made him lazy and stubborn.

A. Cavatica
05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
I think Ozzie was pretty good in 2004 and 2005. I think winning the World Series in his second year as manager was is most ways the best thing ever to happen to him, but in one way was the worst thing ever to happen to him as a manager. I think winning the World Series made Ozzie think he had all the answers and thus made him lazy and stubborn.

I think he was stubborn before they won. But it certainly went to his head.

Frater Perdurabo
05-29-2011, 08:40 PM
I think Ozzie was pretty good in 2004 and 2005. I think winning the World Series in his second year as manager was is most ways the best thing ever to happen to him, but in one way was the worst thing ever to happen to him as a manager. I think winning the World Series made Ozzie think he had all the answers and thus made him lazy and stubborn.

Things started to turn sour in 2006. The offense was clicking so well for the first half of the season, but he emphasized offense over defense in CF by giving Mackowiak so many starts out there, when it was clear that he was unable to field the position at an acceptable MLB level. I'm not sure the Sox would have won the division if he had kept Mackowiak out of CF, but I do think they would have won a few more games. The pitching, which was exhausted from 2005, needed all the help it could get in 2006, and better CF defense might have been the difference in a few games.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 09:46 PM
Frater:

Remember Ozzie nixed the idea of a six man rotation that Kenny wanted which in theory could have saved some wear and tear in the second half.

That's one of those "we'll never know" scenarios.

Lip

WhiteSox5187
05-29-2011, 09:49 PM
I think Ozzie was pretty good in 2004 and 2005. I think winning the World Series in his second year as manager was is most ways the best thing ever to happen to him, but in one way was the worst thing ever to happen to him as a manager. I think winning the World Series made Ozzie think he had all the answers and thus made him lazy and stubborn.

I think he did a pretty good job in 2008 and 2010 too. The team's bullpen started to fall apart after that series against Detroit in 2010 when Putz hurt his knee and that's what did in the team. This has been his worst year as a manager so far, but I don't know if anyone else would do much better.

Tragg
05-29-2011, 10:04 PM
Williams also bears a lot of culpability.
And if you fire Gullen, he'll be on baseball tonight 4 times a week.

Lip Man 1
05-29-2011, 10:25 PM
Since I don't watch the Eastern Sports Programming Network that wouldn't bother me.

Lip

Viva Medias B's
05-29-2011, 11:25 PM
There are a lot of parallels betwen post-2005 World Series Guillen and post-Super Bowl XX Ditka.

DickAllen72
05-29-2011, 11:30 PM
There are a lot of parallels betwen post-2005 World Series Guillen and post-Super Bowl XX Ditka.
Not really. Ditka had the Bears win their division year in and year out and every year went into the playoffs with their first and sometimes even second string QBs injured. Ditka also had the Bears ownership against him every step of the way.

Guillen's teams consistently underperform despite having the highest payroll in the division and an owner who defends him no matter what stupid things he says and does.

Sunnydre
05-29-2011, 11:43 PM
they have been playing better, the last two games notwithstanding

agree.

not yet, let see where we are at by the 4th of July.

Viva Medias B's
05-29-2011, 11:45 PM
Not really. Ditka had the Bears win their division year in and year out and every year went into the playoffs with their first and sometimes even second string QBs injured. Ditka also had the Bears ownership against him every step of the way.

Guillen's teams consistently underperform despite having the highest payroll in the division and an owner who defends him no matter what stupid things he says and does.

I don't disagree with you. However, both Ditka in '92 and Guillen now have this pompous "kiss my ass" attitude.

Danryan
05-30-2011, 11:02 AM
Ozzie's record is 624-566 as a major league manager. It is debatable if his time is up as our manager. However, during his managerial career he has made the White Sox relevant in Chicago. Whether it is his irrational rants, or World Series wins people pay attention to him and the Sox. Has there ever been a manager fired with a record of 58 over? Maybe

russ99
05-30-2011, 11:06 AM
Things started to turn sour in 2006. The offense was clicking so well for the first half of the season, but he emphasized offense over defense in CF by giving Mackowiak so many starts out there, when it was clear that he was unable to field the position at an acceptable MLB level. I'm not sure the Sox would have won the division if he had kept Mackowiak out of CF, but I do think they would have won a few more games. The pitching, which was exhausted from 2005, needed all the help it could get in 2006, and better CF defense might have been the difference in a few games.

It all comes back to further idiotic defense of Brian Anderson who can't hit his way out of a paper bag, and who Ozzie gave every chance to prove himself.

We lost in 2006 because the pitching collapsed, most likely due to the post season workload from the year before. Kenny Lofton in his prime playing CF that year wouldn't have made a difference.

Domeshot17
05-30-2011, 11:07 AM
Ozzie's record is 624-566 as a major league manager. It is debatable if his time is up as our manager. However, during his managerial career he has made the White Sox relevant in Chicago. Whether it is his irrational rants, or World Series wins people pay attention to him and the Sox. Has there ever been a manager fired with a record of 58 over? Maybe

It really isn't that great of a record. It is a .524 winning percentage which equals about 85 wins a season. It really represents the White Sox during Ozzie's tenure, about a .500 team with a great 2005 mixed in.

russ99
05-30-2011, 11:17 AM
It really isn't that great of a record. It is a .524 winning percentage which equals about 85 wins a season. It really represents the White Sox during Ozzie's tenure, about a .500 team with a great 2005 mixed in.

Ok, then why are so many other managers hard-pressed to equal it?

I can understand ranting on what he's saying in the press, ripping his supposed poor decisions working with the roster he has, being upset with our underachieving roster, but you can't diminish his accomplishments as manager here.

Domeshot17
05-30-2011, 11:32 AM
Ok, then why are so many other managers hard-pressed to equal it?

I can understand ranting on what he's saying in the press, ripping his supposed poor decisions working with the roster he has, being upset with our underachieving roster, but you can't diminish his accomplishments as manager here.

Ozzie has had the luxury most managers do not, he has not had 1 year where the GM handed him a true, rebuilding year team. Every year since he has been manager he has had a team capable of being .500 or better.

soxfanreggie
05-30-2011, 11:34 AM
Ozzie's record is 624-566 as a major league manager. It is debatable if his time is up as our manager. However, during his managerial career he has made the White Sox relevant in Chicago. Whether it is his irrational rants, or World Series wins people pay attention to him and the Sox. Has there ever been a manager fired with a record of 58 over? Maybe

There are a lot of managers that Steinbrenner fired who had good records. Part of what you have to look at is the resources they have to win with, and Ozzie has a high-priced team at his disposal. That's not to say it's a Yankees'-type payroll, but he does have a lot of weapons.

Dick Howser went 103-59 (.636) in 1980, but lost in the ALCS to the Kansas City Royals, and was fired.

Showwalter was 313-268 (.539) and got the axe.

Billy Martin (who had a very "special" situation there in NY) was
556-385 (.591), with two pennants and a World Series title...he was fired five times! He was even preparing to come back one more time when he sadly passed away.

If you look outside of baseball, Mike Brown was 272-138 (.663) and made the playoffs every season with the Cavs and got the axe. It will be interesting to see what happens with that winning percentage as he takes over the Lakers - probably dropping as they rest Kobe more and look to get in the playoffs but not focus as much on winning the division if it means "using up" Kobe. 410272138.663

DSpivack
05-30-2011, 11:40 AM
There are a lot of managers that Steinbrenner fired who had good records. Part of what you have to look at is the resources they have to win with, and Ozzie has a high-priced team at his disposal. That's not to say it's a Yankees'-type payroll, but he does have a lot of weapons.

Dick Howser went 103-59 (.636) in 1980, but lost in the ALCS to the Kansas City Royals, and was fired.

Showwalter was 313-268 (.539) and got the axe.

Billy Martin (who had a very "special" situation there in NY) was
556-385 (.591), with two pennants and a World Series title...he was fired five times! He was even preparing to come back one more time when he sadly passed away.

If you look outside of baseball, Mike Brown was 272-138 (.663) and made the playoffs every season with the Cavs and got the axe. It will be interesting to see what happens with that winning percentage as he takes over the Lakers - probably dropping as they rest Kobe more and look to get in the playoffs but not focus as much on winning the division if it means "using up" Kobe. 410272138.663

Those are good points.

Also, Ozzie's winning record was made in the early part of his managing career; as said, he is 58 games over .500, combine 2005 and 2006 and you get 54 games over. Nothing but mediocrity since.

harwar
05-30-2011, 11:42 AM
I don't see the point in firing Ozzie now, since Cora would probably just take over .. i do feel that he should go after the season is done .. along with just about everyone else .. could be awhile before we see a winner again on the south side

tstrike2000
05-30-2011, 11:46 AM
Ozzie has had the luxury most managers do not, he has not had 1 year where the GM handed him a true, rebuilding year team. Every year since he has been manager he has had a team capable of being .500 or better.

For a manager who appears to have no idea how to develop young talent and has a propensity over the last 7 years to play guys out of position, I'd hate to see what Ozzie would do if he had a team in rebuild mode.

cards press box
05-30-2011, 12:28 PM
Ozzie's record is 624-566 as a major league manager. It is debatable if his time is up as our manager. However, during his managerial career he has made the White Sox relevant in Chicago. Whether it is his irrational rants, or World Series wins people pay attention to him and the Sox. Has there ever been a manager fired with a record of 58 over? Maybe

I think that most people here would agree that Terry Francona, a contemporary of Ozzie, has been a good major league manager. Francona's career record? 969-866 in 11+ years, a .528 winning percentage. Ozzie's career record? 624-566 in 7+ years, a .524 winning percentage. Francona has two world championships and Ozzie has one. The two managers have very comparable records and, as the numbers show, Ozzie has had success as a major league manager.

During his tenure as Sox manager, Ozzie's biggest strength as a manager has been his ability to keep his players relaxed and get the most out of them. I am concerned, however, that all the turmoil from 2010 has had a residual effect. Ozzie himself said that because of tension between himself and KW, it was his the worst and longest year he has had as a manager. Are the players still listening to Ozzie or are they worn out with the whole situation?

I think that Ozzie can still guide a ballclub in this era. I'm just not sure that it is this ballclub.

Lip Man 1
05-30-2011, 12:44 PM
The Yankees fired Casey Stengel before the start of the 1961 season for losing the World Series the year before. Stengel only won 10 pennents.

Joe Torre was given a one year "win or else" deal and he won four World Series titles.

So yes Russ other managers have been fired by other organizations with a much better track record than Ozzie. They have higher standards and if they aren't met, "he gone..."

Lip

A. Cavatica
05-30-2011, 01:35 PM
Why is it that every year, since the 2006 collapse, the team has under-performed our expectations? It's because we've consistently had five strong starters, or at least four, and starting pitching is the most important thing. That's a testament to Williams and Cooper.

Williams has also gone into every season since 2007 with at least one or two glaring holes. A good manager might have figured a way to work around them. Ozzie just seems to make them worse.

I wonder how Ozzie's winning percentage would stack up against other managers who had comparable starting rotations.

captain54
05-30-2011, 01:44 PM
During his tenure as Sox manager, Ozzie's biggest strength as a manager has been his ability to keep his players relaxed and get the most out of them.
.

I think you're confusing Ozzie with Greg Walker.. I mean Greg "job security for life" Walker

russ99
05-30-2011, 04:32 PM
Ozzie has had the luxury most managers do not, he has not had 1 year where the GM handed him a true, rebuilding year team. Every year since he has been manager he has had a team capable of being .500 or better.

What was 2007?

2009 was also a year where Kenny went cheap and tried to shoehorn rookies into a major league lineup, but at least they had some success.

For a manager who appears to have no idea how to develop young talent and has a propensity over the last 7 years to play guys out of position, I'd hate to see what Ozzie would do if he had a team in rebuild mode.

Managers don't develop young talent. That's what the minor leagues are for.

BTW - this sentiment isn't only the philosophy of the Sox from the Chairman on down, it was pretty much repeated on the Cubs broadcast today.

doublem23
05-30-2011, 05:02 PM
it was pretty much repeated on the Cubs broadcast today.

They're definitely the model organization you want to be in cahoots with.

tstrike2000
05-30-2011, 05:53 PM
Managers don't develop young talent. That's what the minor leagues are for.

BTW - this sentiment isn't only the philosophy of the Sox from the Chairman on down, it was pretty much repeated on the Cubs broadcast today.

However you want to spin it, helping to "nuture" or helping to mold young guys at the MLB level has never appeared to be Ozzie's forte either.

khan
05-30-2011, 06:09 PM
Well, um, uhhhhh....

Woo are dey gunna get if dey fire ozzie? Woo?

Dem stupud fanz woo dont like ozzie are stupud. Ah'd rather fire walker, woo is duh one responsible for duh mismanagement of duh bullpen.





All kidding aside, there is nothing to be gained by firing ozzie guillen right now. This season is lost. If you look at the probability table of teams with a sub-.500 record @ Memorial Day, you will see that there is scant chance for this year.

That said, let's see where the team is at when the end of the season comes around. KW will have to do his best job ever in rebuilding this mess. He has been GM-ing by checkbook for awhile now, and the results have been craptacular.

I say keep Ozzie Guillen as manager of the White Sox.

GlassSox
05-30-2011, 06:52 PM
His most recent comments are just another example of poor leadership. The time for a change is way past due.

Domeshot17
05-30-2011, 09:20 PM
What was 2007?

2009 was also a year where Kenny went cheap and tried to shoehorn rookies into a major league lineup, but at least they had some success.



Managers don't develop young talent. That's what the minor leagues are for.

BTW - this sentiment isn't only the philosophy of the Sox from the Chairman on down, it was pretty much repeated on the Cubs broadcast today.

2007 was a 101 mil payroll, 2009 was 105 mil. Both were top 10 in the league. That is in no way "a rebuilding year" for anyone but the Yankees.

Also, The manager is responsible for getting the young guys acclimated to the major league level. It is no secret that pretty much none of our farm has had ANY success during Ozzie's tenure.

DSpivack
05-30-2011, 09:45 PM
2007 was a 101 mil payroll, 2009 was 105 mil. Both were top 10 in the league. That is in no way "a rebuilding year" for anyone but the Yankees.

Also, The manager is responsible for getting the young guys acclimated to the major league level. It is no secret that pretty much none of our farm has had ANY success during Ozzie's tenure .

Ozzie has not managed 'kids' well. But I blame the lack of success with prospects on the organization as a whole, from the owner having amongst the lowest budgets when it comes to the draft and scouting, to the GM who oversees those drafts and talent, to scouting and player development in general.

A. Cavatica
05-30-2011, 10:32 PM
All kidding aside, there is nothing to be gained by firing ozzie guillen right now. This season is lost.

The organization's last shred of credibility is next. Firing Ozzie and most of his coaching staff is the first step in apologizing to a fan base who expect and deserve much better.

nccwsfan
05-31-2011, 10:53 AM
The organization's last shred of credibility is next. Firing Ozzie and most of his coaching staff is the first step in apologizing to a fan base who expect and deserve much better.

Maybe someone can provide an example but I cannot recall a time where an entire coaching staff is replaced during the season. There have been plenty of instances where a manager and/or coach has been let go, but an entire coaching staff? It doesn't seem practical or fair to ask the interim coach to take over a team AND put together a coaching staff that isn't their ideal hire. And what good would it be to fire Ozzie now if the replacement is Cora with the same staff? That does nothing.

IMO I don't think the CWS have hit the white flag mode yet- Cleveland has been mediocre in May, Detroit and Kansas City haven't set the world on fire, and Minnesota is flat out of it. It would seem that they (Ozzie and the coaching staff) are going to be given the 2011 season to see what they can do. Any result that doesn't get this team in the postseason should mean a housecleaning is in order.

It might be too optimistic but I'm just not ready to call it a season yet. This smells like 06', 09', and 10' all over again, but with the division being as bad as it is I'd like to let it play out a little longer. It's there for the taking...

khan
05-31-2011, 11:31 AM
The organization's last shred of credibility is next. Firing Ozzie and most of his coaching staff is the first step in apologizing to a fan base who expect and deserve much better.

Honestly, the fans should merely embrace the reality that this team is not going anywhere in 2011. A once-in-a-generation run of wins a year ago did not rescue that season, and in 2011, the team's fortunes aren't any better.


Bringing in a new field manager won't change anything for 2011. At the end of the season, perhaps matters may be different.


Insofar as "credibility" goes, I don't believe that any of us that are hardcore SOX fans are going to cease to be SOX fans, regardless of what happens with the field manager position. For the fair weather fans, perhaps their attention may wane. At that, I believe that the fair weather fans are on a year-to-year basis for their attention. However, the 2011 fair weather fans have already been lost, due to the craptacularity of the team.