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View Full Version : *Official* 5-28 Found another way to lose, eh? Jays 9, Sox 8 Postgamer


Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:25 PM
White Sox Baseball: We Put the Fun in Dysfunctional

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 05:26 PM
We give up a game-winning home run to Corey Patterson? COREY PATTERSON???

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:26 PM
Thanks, Ozzie.

thomas35forever
05-28-2011, 05:26 PM
What is this crap? Oh well. Got a graduation party to go to.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 05:27 PM
The natives are starting to get restless, again.

roylestillman
05-28-2011, 05:27 PM
Dunn needs to sit.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 05:28 PM
This one is up there with pulling Buehrle vs Oakland, 3 outs away from a shutout in April.

Ozzie lost this game. Plain and simple.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-28-2011, 05:28 PM
There isn't a situation that these goofs couldn't **** up.All in.

Hartman
05-28-2011, 05:28 PM
Waste a bunch of pitching on a game everyone knew would be lost.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 05:28 PM
This team ****ing blows.

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 05:28 PM
That's White Sox baseball for you.

come back.

Burn through your bullpen.

Lose.

Now we face Toronto's best pitcher. A guy who almost no-hit us last year.

Danks, who has no wins on the season and even lest run support faces him.

and Ozzie and Walker still have jobs.

JB98
05-28-2011, 05:29 PM
Ozzie blew the game in the 11th. Should have pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, not McPherson.

Quentin's fly would have scored the man from third with one out.

Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.

thomas35forever
05-28-2011, 05:29 PM
That's White Sox baseball for you.

come back.

Burn through your bullpen.

Lose.
That's a paddlin'.

CHISOXFAN13
05-28-2011, 05:29 PM
We give up a game-winning home run to Corey Patterson? COREY PATTERSON???

He's having a better year than just about everyone in the Sox lineup.

October26
05-28-2011, 05:29 PM
Sox used all the pitchers in the bullpen plus Floyd and lost yet another game. Yuck.

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 05:30 PM
And do you know what will change? Nothing.

ZombieRob
05-28-2011, 05:30 PM
To me, Ozzie is pulling "a Lou". Just waiting and riding it out. he manages like he doesn't give a **** or isn't paying attention to what's going on.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 05:30 PM
He's having a better year than just about everyone in the Sox lineup.

Most people are.

billyvsox
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
That's White Sox baseball for you.

come back.

Burn through your bullpen.

Lose.

Now we face Toronto's best pitcher. A guy who almost no-hit us last year.

Danks, who has no wins on the season and even lest run support faces him.

and Ozzie and Walker still have jobs.

Yes, and because Ozzie and Walker still have jobs, they keep coming to work, and screwing up more things.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
To me, Ozzie is pulling "a Lou". Just waiting and riding it out. he manages like he doesn't give a **** or isn't paying attention to what's going on.

He manages like he's bored with making the right move.

sox230
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Hawk even said Dunn is pulling his head too much during his at bat in the 11th. Then again he should never have been up in that situation in the first place. Walker and Ozzie to the rescue!

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
He manages like he's bored with making the right move.

If that is the case, he needs to go.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Ozzie blew the game in the 11th. Should have pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, not McPherson.

Quentin's fly would have scored the man from third with one out.

Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.

Yes he is.No excuse for NOT knowing what you have.Or Don't.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:31 PM
Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.

He's done a terrible job since 2006.

veeter
05-28-2011, 05:32 PM
Fundamentally inept and baseball stupid. Throw in the dumbest manager around and this is what you get. Same exact season four years in a row. Why make any changes? ****ers.

JB98
05-28-2011, 05:32 PM
Yes he is.No excuse for NOT knowing what you have.Or Don't.

It would be one thing if Quentin weren't available off the bench. But I mean, c'mon...

chisoxfanatic
05-28-2011, 05:33 PM
Dunn needs to sit.
I'm so dunn with him! This is exactly the 1/3 mark of the season, and he hasn't shown any signs of doing anything productive for this team. This might end up being one of the worst pick-ups in baseball in quite a while.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:34 PM
It would be one thing if Quentin weren't available off the bench. But I mean, c'mon...

JB, would you fire Ozzie at this point?

Soxman219
05-28-2011, 05:34 PM
Dunn is lifeless

LongLiveFisk
05-28-2011, 05:35 PM
I go to take my lasagna out of the oven and come back to this?

Corey ****ing Patterson? Are you kidding me?

:thud:

sox230
05-28-2011, 05:35 PM
To me, Ozzie is pulling "a Lou". Just waiting and riding it out. he manages like he doesn't give a **** or isn't paying attention to what's going on.

+1. I don't even think Ozzie would care if he's fired. But then again, nobody is putting him on the hot seat either. What bothers me the most out of anything is that nobody is being punished for this horse**** "baseball." It's like we don't want to make any changes. Ozzie and Walker are horrible coaches (even Cora not making sure things are straight before Omar covered 2B on the hit and run with a LEFTY up). KW has made some awful, awful moves and extensions. Uncle Jerry is waaaay too loyal to people (IMO the main reason Ozzie hasn't been fired), and our scouts absolutely suck. I feel like this organization is getting on the Bears' level.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Guillen was horrid today!

Irishsox1
05-28-2011, 05:36 PM
I know it's popular to blame Ozzie but nobody is hitting the ball at all.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Ozzie doesn't manage "from the gut." He's a robot.

Nelfox02
05-28-2011, 05:36 PM
Just wow----on days when we score 8 runs that is not good enough....days where the pitching is great we cant score runs......just terrible

Silly me, I actually got excited when Morel lead off with that double and then Piere got the sac done.....figured TCM could get just the fly ball we needed and let Sergio shut em down....as soon as he walked and I saw Dunn coming to the box, knew we were screwed

but I will accept some blame here, it is my fault for actually having hope this team could win this game.

Dunn.....just wretched..............he and Carlos Boozer fuel my nightmares

veeter
05-28-2011, 05:37 PM
Wouldn't it be nice to be so rich and arrogant you didn't have to care about work? **** you Guillen!!!

JB98
05-28-2011, 05:37 PM
JB, would you fire Ozzie at this point?

Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-28-2011, 05:37 PM
If that is the case, he needs to go.

This is true.He was part of a World Series Champion,and he looks and
manages like he's to tired and worn out from all of the **** the past few
years trying to get back to that standing.Plenty of that crap was self
inflicted as well.The team needs a new direction.Probably won't happen
either.

WhiteSoxOnly
05-28-2011, 05:40 PM
Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.

Nailed.

Nelfox02
05-28-2011, 05:41 PM
+1. I don't even think Ozzie would care if he's fired. But then again, nobody is putting him on the hot seat either. What bothers me the most out of anything is that nobody is being punished for this horse**** "baseball." It's like we don't want to make any changes. Ozzie and Walker are horrible coaches (even Cora not making sure things are straight before Omar covered 2B on the hit and run with a LEFTY up). KW has made some awful, awful moves and extensions. Uncle Jerry is waaaay too loyal to people (IMO the main reason Ozzie hasn't been fired), and our scouts absolutely suck. I feel like this organization is getting on the Bears' level.

Does anyone on this team really care about anything?

sox230
05-28-2011, 05:44 PM
Does anyone on this team really care about anything?

It starts with the coaches instilling and maintaining the right attitude doesn't it? (Although the players should obviously want it too)

DrCrawdad
05-28-2011, 05:45 PM
We give up a game-winning home run to Corey Patterson? COREY PATTERSON???

I called it in the game thread at 3:43PM...

Exactly. I expect Corey Patterson to either score the winning run or drive it in or both.

I'm so happy I was right. :angry:

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:48 PM
I know it's popular to blame Ozzie but nobody is hitting the ball at all.

The Sox had 14 hits today. Paulie, AJ, Rios, Lillibridge and Morel each had two hits. Alexei had three.

The Jays brought in a LHP to face Dunn, who is HITLESS against LHP this year.

Quentin has a .314 AVG and .985 OPS v. LHP, 1.041 OPS in road games, .923 OPS in day games, .983 OPS in late/close situations.

And yet, Ozzie chooses to keep Dunn in the game. He fails to bring in the run, as we all would expect, and then Quentin flies out to end the inning.

With just one out, Quentin's flyout would have scored the go-ahead run.

Moreover, even if the Sox DID score the run, they still had to play defense in the bottom of the inning, meaning that SOMEONE would have to play out of position. Beckham is unavailable, so that meant Quentin came into RF (defensive DOWNGRADE from Lillibridge), Lillibridge had to go to second (defensive DOWNGRADE from Vizquel), and Vizquel had to go to first (defensive DOWNGRADE considering he had NEVER BEFORE PLAYED FIRST BASE).

Ozzie's decision was wrong in FOUR ways.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 05:49 PM
Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.

Would you go with Hahn as GM?

russ99
05-28-2011, 05:52 PM
Ozzie doesn't manage "from the gut." He's a robot.

Dunn already drove in a run today, and would anyone want MacPherson in that situation over Quentin?

But don't let a little reality get in the way of the witch hunt. Second guessing is one thing, but this is another.

If you want to blame the manager for the players not executing, fine, but also blame the players. 5-18 with RISP is inexcusable.

Nelfox02
05-28-2011, 05:52 PM
It starts with the coaches instilling and maintaining the right attitude doesn't it? (Although the players should obviously want it too)


maybe I am wrong on this, or jaded, and I have to admit I have not watched a ton of post game shows this year.....but does anyone on this team really seemed that bothered that their season is pretty much in the toilet? Just seems like a maliaise is everywhere you look in this organization, feels like its been here awhile

there is always an excuse or justfication for failure at every turn....but no one on this team seems fired up.......

just an impression.......

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 05:52 PM
Ranger's excuses on the post game are horrid.:angry:

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 05:55 PM
Dunn already drove in a run today, and would anyone want MacPherson in that situation over Quentin?

But don't let a little reality get in the way of the witch hunt. Second guessing is one thing, but this is another.

If you want to blame the manager for the players not executing, fine, but also blame the players. 5-18 with RISP is inexcusable.

Problem is the players haven't been executing in the first two months of the season for about five years now.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 05:57 PM
Ranger said Dunn wasn't pinch hit for because he's going to break out one of these days.

Poor excuse, but I fully expected that from him.

That is like saying I carry an umbrella everyday because it may rain one of these days............Idiot! :angry:

russ99
05-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Problem is the players haven't been executing in the first two months of the season for about five years now.

Yes, very true. I can't believe 5 years later Walker still has his job.

JermaineDye05
05-28-2011, 05:58 PM
Ranger said Dunn wasn't pinch hit for because he's going to break out one of these days.

Poor excuse, but I fully expected that from him.

That is like saying I carry an umbrella everyday because it may rain one of these days............Idiot! :angry:

I don't know why you're mad at Ranger. He didn't lose the ballgame.

ZombieRob
05-28-2011, 05:59 PM
Ranger's excuses on the post game are horrid.:angry:
They usually are. He's become the new Brian Davis if anyone remember him.

Noneck
05-28-2011, 05:59 PM
....but does anyone on this team really seemed that bothered that their season is pretty much in the toilet? Just seems like a maliaise is everywhere you look in this organization, feels like its been here awhile

there is always an excuse or justfication for failure at every turn....but no one on this team seems fired up.......



When was the last time have you seen things differently? It has been a long time. Actually too long, much too long.

JB98
05-28-2011, 05:59 PM
Dunn already drove in a run today, and would anyone want MacPherson in that situation over Quentin?

But don't let a little reality get in the way of the witch hunt. Second guessing is one thing, but this is another.

If you want to blame the manager for the players not executing, fine, but also blame the players. 5-18 with RISP is inexcusable.

This isn't second-guessing. I was screaming at my TV for Quentin when I saw them trot that left-hander in from the bullpen.

I want Quentin up there with one out. I trust him to get the ball out of the infield and get that run home. He does the job, it doesn't matter what McPherson does.

If Quentin fails, then it's Quentin's fault. It's the manager's job to give players the best chance to succeed. Allowing Dunn to hit in that spot is the exact opposite. Quentin obviously had a better chance of hitting a sac fly against a lefty pitcher.

It's as plain as the nose on Hawkeroo's face.

LongLiveFisk
05-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Ranger said Dunn wasn't pinch hit for because he's going to break out one of these days.

Maybe Ozzie doesn't know that Dunn is 0-for-lefties this entire season. Can someone go and tell him?

russ99
05-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Ranger said Dunn wasn't pinch hit for because he's going to break out one of these days.

Poor excuse, but I fully expected that from him.

That is like saying I carry an umbrella everyday because it may rain one of these days............Idiot! :angry:

Then why have the man on the roster? Surely Kenny can come up with some excuse to put him on the DL and get him some "rehab" time in AAA...

You're not going to bench a guy you're paying $15M to, plain and simple. Case in point, Pujols and Crawford. Are they getting benched?

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:00 PM
I don't know why you're mad at Ranger. He didn't lose the ballgame.
I am tired of his every Sox brass move is 100% correct and everyone else is an idiot everyday.

shingo10
05-28-2011, 06:01 PM
Dunn's "lost all confidence." This according to himself.

Wonderful.

LongLiveFisk
05-28-2011, 06:01 PM
This isn't second-guessing. I was screaming at my TV for Quentin when I saw them trot that left-hander in from the bullpen.

I want Quentin up there with one out. I trust him to get the ball out of the infield and get that run home. He does the job, it doesn't matter what McPherson does.

If Quentin fails, then it's Quentin's fault. It's the manager's job to give players the best chance to succeed. Allowing Dunn to hit in that spot is the exact opposite. Quentin obviously had a better chance of hitting a sac fly against a lefty pitcher.

It's as plain as the nose on Hawkeroo's face.

Amen, brother.

100% correctamundo. :thumbsup:

DirtySox
05-28-2011, 06:01 PM
Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.

Pretty much. I'm looking forward to a rebuild.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:02 PM
Then why have the man on the roster? Surely Kenny can come up with some excuse to put him on the DL and get him some "rehab" time in AAA...

You're not going to bench a guy you're paying $15M to, plain and simple. Case in point, Pujols and Crawford. Are they getting benched?
Neither one is 0-2011 vs LHP either!

Noneck
05-28-2011, 06:03 PM
I am tired of his every Sox brass move is 100% correct and everyone else is an idiot everyday.

The solution is to turn the radio on/off dial to the off position.

JB98
05-28-2011, 06:03 PM
Would you go with Hahn as GM?

Yes. If the Sox don't promote him soon, someone else will hire him.

I'm ready for someone a little less temperamental in that GM chair.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:04 PM
The solution is to turn the radio on/off dial to the off position.
Solution is to hire someone who is not 100% puppet pulled by Sox!

russ99
05-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Dunn's "lost all confidence." This according to himself.

Wonderful.

If that's not an indictment of Walker's methods, I don't know what is.

This the 3rd straight year Jerry had the perfect out to replace him after an awful series in Toronto. Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm.

Noneck
05-28-2011, 06:06 PM
Solution is to hire someone who is not 100% puppet pulled by Sox!

Considering the Sox have a say in who does the show, thats not going to happen.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:08 PM
Considering the Sox have a say in who does the show, thats not going to happen.
Then he should say upfront he is 100% biased for management at least people would have more repect IMO!

sox1970
05-28-2011, 06:09 PM
Yes. If the Sox don't promote him soon, someone else will hire him.

I'm ready for someone a little less temperamental in that GM chair.

Do you ever hear an interview with another GM, and he gives a cogent, thoughtful answer?

And when you hear an interview with Kenny, it's vague, defensive, and usually arrogant (with 2005 under his belt).

I'm not saying he should be fired because of his interviews. He should be fired because of the cumulative moves from 2008 to now. He's been awful. But I'll give this to end of the season. If the Sox come up one game short, Kenny should step down.

DickAllen72
05-28-2011, 06:09 PM
Ozzie blew the game in the 11th. Should have pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, not McPherson.

Quentin's fly would have scored the man from third with one out.

Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.
QFT

:fireozzie

Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 06:10 PM
Today was an absolutely perfect example, textbook of what type of year it's going to be.

You can't draw it up any better.

How often have we seen the Sox get good pitching (usually from the starters) and lose because they can't hit for ****? (In fact the Sox have lost eight games this year when holding an opponent to three runs or less...)

So today when they actually get some hitting, score some runs, the pitching goes to ****. (In fact this is the third time this year the Sox lost a game when scoring six or more runs. That doesn't sound bad...except for the fact the Sox don't score runs in bunches like that. When they do you can't urinate the opportunity away.)

After today I'm now firmly convinced. Ozzie, Cora, Walker, Baines, Cooper...they all have to go. Time for fresh blood, new eyes, new ideas.

Lip

Noneck
05-28-2011, 06:11 PM
Then he should say upfront he is 100% biased for management at least people would have more repect IMO!

An employee does what he has to do, its a way of life.

DirtySox
05-28-2011, 06:12 PM
Yes. If the Sox don't promote him soon, someone else will hire him.

I'm ready for someone a little less temperamental in that GM chair.


He was essentially runner up to Sandy Alderson with the Mets. If he isn't promoted this offseason I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up as Houston's GM.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:13 PM
An employee does what he has to do, its a way of life.
So talking down to every caller like they are stupid but Sox brass is all knowing is a good employee?

oldgrouch
05-28-2011, 06:14 PM
This is true.He was part of a World Series Champion,and he looks and
manages like he's to tired and worn out from all of the **** the past few
years trying to get back to that standing.Plenty of that crap was self
inflicted as well.The team needs a new direction.Probably won't happen
either.

Ozzie made all the wrong moves in 2005 but came out smelling like a rose
because Lady Luck and his players bailed him out.

Dan H
05-28-2011, 06:16 PM
Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.


I agree completely and it's not just a matter of being early. The Sox are 191-187 since the beginning of 2009. And that. of course, includes that 25-5 streak. To continue to do nothing means to continue to live in denial.

DickAllen72
05-28-2011, 06:18 PM
The Jays brought in a LHP to face Dunn, who is HITLESS against LHP this year.

Quentin has a .314 AVG and .985 OPS v. LHP, 1.041 OPS in road games, .923 OPS in day games, .983 OPS in late/close situations.

And yet, Ozzie chooses to keep Dunn in the game. He fails to bring in the run, as we all would expect, and then Quentin flies out to end the inning.

With just one out, Quentin's flyout would have scored the go-ahead run.

Moreover, even if the Sox DID score the run, they still had to play defense in the bottom of the inning, meaning that SOMEONE would have to play out of position. Beckham is unavailable, so that meant Quentin came into RF (defensive DOWNGRADE from Lillibridge), Lillibridge had to go to second (defensive DOWNGRADE from Vizquel), and Vizquel had to go to first (defensive DOWNGRADE considering he had NEVER BEFORE PLAYED FIRST BASE).

Ozzie's decision was wrong in FOUR ways.

I was yelling at the TV to PH Quentin for Dunn as soon as Farrel went to the pen to bring in the LHP, for all the obvious reasons you listed. It's not that we are so smart - a blind man could see it. It's that Ozzie is a horrible, stubborn manager and needs to be fired ASAP.

Maybe if the Sox show they care and are serious about winning they'll get a new manager and the fans will start showing up at the park again. But if they stay with Ozzie/Walker and accept this garbage it's hard to see the fans spending their hard earned cash to come out and watch this crap.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 06:20 PM
I agree completely and it's not just a matter of being early. The Sox are 191-187 since the beginning of 2009. And that. of course, includes that 25-5 streak. To continue to do nothing means to continue to live in denial.

Since the middle of 2006, the Sox are 386-394 (.495).

But Ozzie had 600 wins in 7 years...

Big. ****ing. Deal.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 06:22 PM
Ozzie made all the wrong moves in 2005 but came out smelling like a rose
because Lady Luck and his players bailed him out.

It was pretty impossible to make a wrong move in 2005. Every pitcher was lights ****ing out.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 06:23 PM
It was pretty impossible to make a wrong move in 2005. Every pitcher was lights ****ing out.


Correct. Hermanson, Cotts, and Politte with a combined ERA of 1.99 made Ozzie look like a genius.

Dick Allen
05-28-2011, 06:24 PM
I was yelling at the TV to PH Quentin for Dunn as soon as Farrel went to the pen to bring in the LHP, for all the obvious reasons you listed. It's not that we are so smart - a blind man could see it. It's that Ozzie is a horrible, stubborn manager and needs to be fired ASAP.

Maybe if the Sox show they care and are serious about winning they'll get a new manager and the fans will start showing up at the park again. But if they stay with Ozzie/Walker and accept this garbage it's hard to see the fans spending their hard earned cash to come out and watch this crap.Which is exactly why, loyalty or no loyalty, Reinsdorf needs to pull the trigger. I can't believe he's going to sit back and watch his $125M investment go down the toilet. I know I won't be spending any of my hard-earned money watching this crap. If they don't care, why should I?

Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 06:26 PM
By the way this is the 6th time this year the Sox had a lead in the 7th inning or later and lost the game.

Lip

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:28 PM
By the way this is the 6th time this year the Sox had a lead in the 7th inning or later and lost the game.

Lip
Sad state of affairs Lip Man.:mad:

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 06:32 PM
Everyone except Cooper. The GM can go with the rest of the coaches, too.

We need a change in direction. It's not early anymore.

I would not hold my breath waiting for that to happen, as much as I think that should happen. Jerry Reinsdorf is loyal to a fault, and his incentive to make a change like this is overriden in his mind by 10/26/2005.

captain54
05-28-2011, 06:37 PM
Only 1/3 of the way through this nightmare... I've already made alternate plans for the games I was thinking of attending this year, so that may ease the pain...as far as I'm concerned, I'm allowing my disgust to vent itself thru my non-attendance.

####you Adam Dunn...Ranger "the puppet" Rongey, echoes Walker and says you are ready to break out, but as far as I'm concerned you've already almost singlehandly helped to drive the season in the tank...so whatever you do from here on out, I could care less

Viva Medias B's
05-28-2011, 06:40 PM
At least one person's head needs to roll. And Walker would be the one if it comes to that.

TDog
05-28-2011, 06:41 PM
Thanks, Ozzie.

What moves should the manager have made to win the game? The only thing I can conceive of would have been pinch hitting Quentin for Dunn with first and third and one out against the lefty just brought into the game. I don't know if that would have won the game, and the reality is that having committed to Dunn as your DH, you're not going to pinch-hit for him with a runner on third with less than two outs in extra innings, no matter who is pitching, especially with a short bench made shorter by the unavailability of Beckham. Dunn hadn't been an automatic out on the day, driving in a run in the inning where the White Sox took the lead.

Bunting a go-ahead extra-inning run to third after a leadoff double is not just the correct play with Pierre up. It is the fundamental play. Any manager would have played it that way, at least with no strikes. Ramirez didn't help the cause by walking. He didn't hurt the team as he would have if he had struck out or popped out in an effort not to walk, but it set up a situation where Dunn was facing the last lefty in the Blue Jays bullpen.

Pinch-running for Konerko in the ninth with someone who could replace him at first base, someone who could score on a single, was the right thing to do. Putting Vizquel at first base didn't hurt the White Sox.today.

Even pitching Floyd on a day when he was available wasn't a bad move considering the options.

The Sox lost this game because they don't have a deep bullpen, much shallower than it appeared preseason. Jackson didn't stay in the game too long. He stayed in the game as long as he had to considering the depth of the bullpen. You have just three dependable or semi-dependable late-inning relievers, and the non-closing ones didn't just give up the inherited tying run in the second, they left the Sox two down going into the eighth.

I was impressed that the Sox came back to tie the game. I was impressed that the Sox came back from a three-run deficit going into the second, a two-run deficit after three and a two-run deficit after seven. The offense was in no way uninspired today.

This obviously was a game the White Sox should have won. Friday night's game was one the White Sox might have won, perhaps in extra innings, if they had a deeper bullpen allowing Guillen to pull Buehrle sooner. That might have meant Floyd coming in sooner or Jackson losing the game in regulation today.

Any time you have a runner at third with one out with your closer ready to come into the game, you've done managed your team into a position to win. If having Dunn hit with runners on first and third with one out, the problem isn't with the manager, or even the hitting coach.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 06:43 PM
Now Guillen is blasting the players and saying that he and his coaches are already "drained" and it feels like it's September already! Why oh why don't they fire his ass already???! Just fire him and be done with it.

TDog
05-28-2011, 06:50 PM
Now Guillen is blasting the players and saying that he and his coaches are already "drained" and it feels like it's September already! Why oh why don't they fire his ass already???! Just fire him and be done with it.

Because it wouldn't make any difference. This team was doomed with the Dunn signing.

delben91
05-28-2011, 06:51 PM
Just wave the white flag already. For my money, all of the following are fair game: Quentin, Ramirez, Lillibridge, Pierre (maybe someone's desperate for a leadoff man and will overpay?), and Beckham. Jackson, Danks, Floyd, Thornton and the rest of the staff except Santos too. Can't deal Buehrle, AJ or Konerko due to 10/5, Dunn wouldn't net a bag of balls, and Peavy still has a no-trade clause if I recall, but if he'll waive it, deal him too.

No chance a collection of minor leaguers could be more frustrating than this club. I'd rather face 2 or 3 years of knowing the team will suck as opposed to having expectations shattered.

And ditch the whole coaching staff too, even Cooper, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Just a bunch of useless bums that have no pride at all, go make someone else sick.

sox1970
05-28-2011, 06:52 PM
Because it wouldn't make any difference. This team was doomed with the Dunn signing.

Damn that .380 OBP, 40 homers, and 100 RBIs a year.

Just knew he'd suck this year.

:rolleyes:

canOcorn
05-28-2011, 06:54 PM
You're not going to bench a guy you're paying $15M to, plain and simple. Case in point, Pujols and Crawford. Are they getting benched?

Uh, yes. Crawford was benched against LHP earlier in the year.

soltrain21
05-28-2011, 06:54 PM
Because it wouldn't make any difference. This team was doomed with the Dunn signing.

Oh, whatever.

canOcorn
05-28-2011, 07:01 PM
Because it wouldn't make any difference. This team was doomed with the Dunn signing.

We'd have the best record in baseball had we only signed Nate Schierholtz instead of Dunn. :rolleyes:

captain54
05-28-2011, 07:13 PM
If having Dunn hit with runners on first and third with one out, the problem isn't with the manager, or even the hitting coach.

so according to your logic, Ozzie, the coaching staff, the GM, etc. have no right to take any credit for 2005 because ultimately its all based on player performance...and if in fact Walker or one of the coaches by some miracle help a player in some aspect of their game, again, they have no right to take any credit because ultimately its all on the player.

You can't have it both ways.

soxfan1965
05-28-2011, 07:33 PM
Ozzie blew the game in the 11th. Should have pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, not McPherson.

Quentin's fly would have scored the man from third with one out.

Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.

I thought the exact same thing, especially with Dunn vs left handers. Even if the Jays had tied the game, you still have Quentin at DH and McPherson at 1B. If money is the issue, i.e. Ozzie doesn't pinch hit for a $15 million/year player, then Dunn should consider donating half or more of his salary (along with Rios and Kenny Williams) to White Sox charities. Then Ozzie is pinch hitting for a $7.5 million player. Too bad Dunn doesn't have a non-performance clause in his contract.

Sad
05-28-2011, 07:38 PM
Only 1/3 of the way through this nightmare... I've already made alternate plans for the games I was thinking of attending this year, so that may ease the pain...as far as I'm concerned, I'm allowing my disgust to vent itself thru my non-attendance.

####you Adam Dunn...Ranger "the puppet" Rongey, echoes Walker and says you are ready to break out, but as far as I'm concerned you've already almost singlehandly helped to drive the season in the tank...so whatever you do from here on out, I could care less

I hear ya
Im coming in next Sat as I havent spent the night downtown since Nov
if they blow (again) I'll bail and go to Buddy Guy's or somewhere fun

and yes
**** you Adam Dunn
you suck. Bad. Embarassing.
Please leave.

TDog
05-28-2011, 07:43 PM
We'd have the best record in baseball had we only signed Nate Schierholtz instead of Dunn. :rolleyes:

Nate Schierholtz wasn't a free agent. The Sox would have had to trade for him, and they would have had to give up something to get Schierholtz because he is the best defensive right fielder in baseball. This season, Schierholtz has been a much better hitter than Adam Dunn. In fact, Schierholtz has a home run nearly every 20 plate appearances this year, occasionally starting, sometimes pinch-hitting and often finishing games on defense. Adam Dunn, who is supposed to be a big home run hitter, is going about 38 appearances between home runs, playing every day. Schierholtz has had more big hits for the Giants this year than Dunn has for the White Sox.

If you're talking hypothetically, considering the defensive improvement in the outfield and the stronger lineup, I have no doubt the Sox would have a winning record if (ridiculously hypothetically) the White Sox had traded Dunn for Schierholtz in March, I have no doubt the White Sox would be in much better shape in the standings. If you can't see that, you're not paying attention.

Frankly, I don't think there should be any question that the White Sox would have won more games if they had Schierholtz on the team instead of Dunn. If they had won five or six more games, they would be a contender.

The problem isn't that Jeff Cox fails to give Dunn the "don't suck" sign.

Soxfest
05-28-2011, 07:44 PM
so according to your logic, Ozzie, the coaching staff, the GM, etc. have no right to take any credit for 2005 because ultimately its all based on player performance...and if in fact Walker or one of the coaches by some miracle help a player in some aspect of their game, again, they have no right to take any credit because ultimately its all on the player.

You can't have it both ways.
That is OG and Sox brass issue they want it both ways when it makes them look good.

canOcorn
05-28-2011, 07:47 PM
Nate Schierholtz wasn't a free agent. The Sox would have had to trade for him, and they would have had to give up something to get Schierholtz because he is the best defensive right fielder in baseball. This season, Schierholtz has been a much better hitter than Adam Dunn. In fact, Schierholtz has a home run nearly every 20 plate appearances this year, occasionally starting, sometimes pinch-hitting and often finishing games on defense. Adam Dunn, who is supposed to be a big home run hitter, is going about 38 appearances between home runs, playing every day. Schierholtz has had more big hits for the Giants this year than Dunn has for the White Sox.

If you're talking hypothetically, considering the defensive improvement in the outfield and the stronger lineup, I have no doubt the Sox would have a winning record if (ridiculously hypothetically) the White Sox had traded Dunn for Schierholtz in March, I have no doubt the White Sox would be in much better shape in the standings. If you can't see that, you're not paying attention.

Frankly, I don't think there should be any question that the White Sox would have won more games if they had Schierholtz on the team instead of Dunn. If they had won five or six more games, they would be a contender.

The problem isn't that Jeff Cox fails to give Dunn the "don't suck" sign.

:rolling::rolling: Nate Shierholtz ****ing sucks.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 07:54 PM
Can:

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Lip

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 08:12 PM
Dunn already drove in a run today, and would anyone want MacPherson in that situation over Quentin?

But don't let a little reality get in the way of the witch hunt. Second guessing is one thing, but this is another.

If you want to blame the manager for the players not executing, fine, but also blame the players. 5-18 with RISP is inexcusable.

Why Quentin instead of Dunn vs LHP? Are you kidding me?

EMachine10
05-28-2011, 08:33 PM
Ozzie blew the game in the 11th. Should have pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, not McPherson.

Quentin's fly would have scored the man from third with one out.

Inexcusable managing again. He's doing a terrible job this year.
McPherson entered the game as a pinch runner for Konerko, did he not? :scratch:

Edit: I read that wrong. Nevermind.

TDog
05-28-2011, 08:47 PM
so according to your logic, Ozzie, the coaching staff, the GM, etc. have no right to take any credit for 2005 because ultimately its all based on player performance...and if in fact Walker or one of the coaches by some miracle help a player in some aspect of their game, again, they have no right to take any credit because ultimately its all on the player.

You can't have it both ways.

That is an illogical extension of my statement. I'm not having it both ways. The dynamics between 2005 and 2011 are totally different. The personnel is almost totally different.

One of the assets in 2005 was a strong bullpen, and bullpens are crapshoots. Management reacted to bullpen problems and made the right personnel moves just as the Giants did last year to put them in a position to win the World Series. Thornton and Sale were expected by fans to be stronger than they've been this year, which has led to bullpen problems. Humber would have been a middle reliever if Peavy had been ready to join the rotation sooner. As it turned out, Humber has been the most consistent Sox starter and no one else in the rotation seems a candidate for the bullpen., so you're left with a six-man rotation, which makes it easier for Peavy because, at least initially, he'll get more time between starts.

The unexpectedly disappointing seasons from Sale and Thornton lost a few games early. Two games on this roadtrip probably would have been won if the designated hitter signed at great expense with great approval from WSI had gotten a runner in from third with less than two outs. I have always believed Kenny Williams made a mistake in signing Dunn but see it as second-guessing for people to question that move if they didn't question it before the season started.

In 2005, when Guillen put the team in a position to win, they generally won. When closers faltered, other pitchers stepped up (although Santos has stepped up this year after Thornton faltered). If the White Sox would have won every game this year where they were in a position to win late, they would have swept the Royals, Rays and A's early in the season. They would have a winning roadtrip.

Today, if Guillen had pinch-hit Quentin for Dunn, it is more likely that the Toronto lefty pitches around Quentin to get to McPherson than it is to imagine Quentin would have hit a sacrifice fly. And if Quentin isn't getting anything to hit, it's more likely he hits into a double play than hit a run-scoring fly. With just an infielder unable to play and a backup catcher on he bench, you can't pinch-hit for Dunn.

And if you're complaining about Guillen not pinch-hitting for Dunn, there obviously is a problem that you signed Dunn to be your big RBI man.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 08:47 PM
What moves should the manager have made to win the game? The only thing I can conceive of would have been pinch hitting Quentin for Dunn with first and third and one out against the lefty just brought into the game.

Just before WGN cut to commercial, and it was clear the Jays were bringing in a lefty reliever, knowing that Dunn has been hitless v. LHP this year, I said to myself, "Surely Guillen will have Quentin pinch hit for Dunn here."

When the commercials finished and I saw Dunn at the plate, I was astonished.

Then, pinch-hitting Quentin for McPherson, ultimately weakened the Sox at three positions.

miker
05-28-2011, 10:24 PM
Even spending the last 6 innings at Hooters didn't ease the pain of watching this train wreck.

tstrike2000
05-28-2011, 11:31 PM
Despite the Sox scoring 8 runs today I was listening to Stone Pony talk about the Sox offense on 670 yesterday and answering a question from a caller on why the offense is struggling so much. Besides the obvious of Dunn and Rios, he mentioned the failure of the Sox not taking any walks. I know guys like AJ and Alexei don't walk all that much, but it made me think about guys like Pierre, TCQ, and Morel, who hasn't walked at all this year. And I'm glad Stone mentioned that historically the Sox aren't a patient team, just not being a team that will wear down an opposing pitcher after 6 innings or so. It just reiterated just how important having patience in a lineup is and how the higher scoring teams in the league take walks and help to avoid the dreadful offensive slumps like the Sox tend to have.

Stone also mentioned that Ozzie's tried different things like the hit and run. That just gets into another grey area of Ozzie's decision making skills in using the wrong personnel at times to hit and run and asking guys like Alexei Ramirez to bunt when he doesn't know how to bunt.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-29-2011, 12:00 AM
Just before WGN cut to commercial, and it was clear the Jays were bringing in a lefty reliever, knowing that Dunn has been hitless v. LHP this year, I said to myself, "Surely Guillen will have Quentin pinch hit for Dunn here."

When the commercials finished and I saw Dunn at the plate, I was astonished.

Then, pinch-hitting Quentin for McPherson, ultimately weakened the Sox at three positions.

Ozzie managed himself into a corner and ended up using Quentin to hit in a lineup spot originally occupied by Konerko. My guess is he didn't hit for Dunn because he wanted Quentin to hit for McPherson preferring Dunn/Quentin to Quentin/McPherson. I blame him for pinch running for Konerko with two outs. The range of possible outcomes that score McPherson and not Konerko is limited by the fact that McPherson is not all that fast himself. In other words, it's not like McPherson could have scored on any single (and both players score on an extra base it). With two outs its preferable to keep Konerko in the game (you only have one chance at hitting that single). If Konerko was in the game, perhaps then he would have used Quentin to hit for Dunn (since Konerko and not McPherson would have been on deck).

Either way, I agree that he should have pinch hit Quentin for Dunn and not compound the earlier mistake.

palehozenychicty
05-29-2011, 02:42 AM
Despite the Sox scoring 8 runs today I was listening to Stone Pony talk about the Sox offense on 670 yesterday and answering a question from a caller on why the offense is struggling so much. Besides the obvious of Dunn and Rios, he mentioned the failure of the Sox not taking any walks. I know guys like AJ and Alexei don't walk all that much, but it made me think about guys like Pierre, TCQ, and Morel, who hasn't walked at all this year. And I'm glad Stone mentioned that historically the Sox aren't a patient team, just not being a team that will wear down an opposing pitcher after 6 innings or so. It just reiterated just how important having patience in a lineup is and how the higher scoring teams in the league take walks and help to avoid the dreadful offensive slumps like the Sox tend to have.

Stone also mentioned that Ozzie's tried different things like the hit and run. That just gets into another grey area of Ozzie's decision making skills in using the wrong personnel at times to hit and run and asking guys like Alexei Ramirez to bunt when he doesn't know how to bunt.


Exactly. This is why the Beasts of the East perennially are that good. Make the pitcher beat you. Our guys don't do that. We go up there swinging at everything. It exacerbates when you are in a funk.