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View Full Version : *Official* 5-27 Jays 4, Corpseballing Walkerball Sox 2 Postgame Redundancy Thread


Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2011, 10:00 PM
And the beat goes on...

CHISOXFAN13
05-27-2011, 10:01 PM
I found something else to watch when Pena strolled in to pitch the eighth.

A real **** fest.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2011, 10:02 PM
Wash, rinse, repeat

At least Pierre is starting to hit.

OmahaSoxFan
05-27-2011, 10:02 PM
Another game, same old crappy White Sox offense. Paulie now in a major funk, seriously still waiting to see this "vaunted" offense catch fire. Wondering if it ever will... while they waste good starting pitching almost every night. Story of the 2011 White Sox :-(...

JermaineDye05
05-27-2011, 10:02 PM
The worst I've seen the Sox offense all season.

No reason Kyle Drabek should have made it past the fifth inning.

He was absolutely horrendous.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2011, 10:03 PM
Can anyone argue coherently that Walker deserves to retain his job?

JermaineDye05
05-27-2011, 10:04 PM
Can anyone argue coherently that Walker deserves to retain his job?

No.

WhiteSox5187
05-27-2011, 10:04 PM
How Greg Walker and Tony Pena have a job is beyond me. Walker might not be hurting this team but he sure as hell is not helping. And Tony Pena has no business being on a major league roster

delben91
05-27-2011, 10:06 PM
I'm beginning to think this is like 2007 (though with a roster full of players with better track records) where you keep thinking the offense will come around any day now, and it never does.

3 weeks ago AJ said the team was reminding themselves that "one of these days, someone's going to pay." I'm beginning to wonder if it truly was just one day, and then they all went back to the way they were...

ChiSoxGal85
05-27-2011, 10:06 PM
This game was really awful to watch, and not just because the Sox lost. The Jays seemed to hit Mark pretty hard. The entire Sox offense looked pretty flat AGAIN. They hit the ball hard early in the game but again can't seem to execute the key hit with RISP. Although Juan Pierre seems to have found himself again.

Alexei's fielding makes me nuts. He turns a terrific play and then one or two plays later botches a relatively routine throw.

I hope Gordon is ok; anyone hear if the xray results were announced?

I'm gonna be busy this weekend and probably not able to see the next couple of games live...but I'll live them vicariously through the game threads. :smile:

billyvsox
05-27-2011, 10:06 PM
Chalk up another game the Sox could have easily won. Put it in the loss column. It's early right.......no need to chew out the ballclub for swinging at bad pitches, not having ANY patience with a struggling pitcher (other then Dunn), throw in the manager with his bonehead moves (bringing in McPherson instead of Morel to hurt the defense (and offense 0-3 3 k's), having Pena add to the deficit,etc, etc.

Personally, I want Viciedo up now!!! Gray to replace Pena, Lillibridge to play more, Rios and Dunn to get benched for awhile. I know I am dreaming, but at least I can dream

SoxSpeed22
05-27-2011, 10:06 PM
Another game pissed away. Drabek pitches that badly and they make his box score look great.

billyvsox
05-27-2011, 10:07 PM
Can anyone argue coherently that Walker deserves to retain his job?

Not me. I could argue un-coherently though, but dont want to...he sux

shingo10
05-27-2011, 10:07 PM
We've lost a lot of those "42" games.

Not good.

WhiteSox5187
05-27-2011, 10:09 PM
We've lost a lot of those "42" games.

Not good.

Good heavens, we've lost a lot of the sixty you're supposed to win too!

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2011, 10:10 PM
We've lost a lot of those "42" games.

Not good.

I worry we're losing some of the 60 we're supposed to win.

DirtySox
05-27-2011, 10:10 PM
Another game pissed away. Drabek pitches that badly and they make his box score look great.

Pretty much.


:happybday Anyways!

LongLiveFisk
05-27-2011, 10:11 PM
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTRyn3KQf5I__hlZPj99yZ4Ir8bjY78n vV_haosjAIBHbuWGrzgJw&t=1

canOcorn
05-27-2011, 10:12 PM
When a pitcher is dealing like Drabek, you just have to tip your cap.

DirtySox
05-27-2011, 10:14 PM
Still awaiting word on Beckham's face. Hopefully there isn't a fracture.

Frater Perdurabo
05-27-2011, 10:15 PM
When a pitcher is dealing like Drabek, you just have to tip your cap.

The Sox tip their cap to a batting tee.

Lip Man 1
05-27-2011, 10:15 PM
14 runs in the last five games and eight of those came in one game.

Walker-ball (aka corpseball) at its best.

Another garbage offensive performance against a pitcher the Sox never saw before. (BIG SURPRISE!)

Lip

JermaineDye05
05-27-2011, 10:16 PM
Still awaiting word on Beckham's face. Hopefully there isn't a fracture.

I think he finally knows how we all feel. :facepalm:

GlassSox
05-27-2011, 10:17 PM
Can anyone argue coherently that Walker deserves to retain his job?

Someone probably will but it's not me.

all*star quentin
05-27-2011, 10:19 PM
Another game, same old crappy White Sox offense. Paulie now in a major funk, seriously still waiting to see this "vaunted" offense catch fire. Wondering if it ever will... while they waste good starting pitching almost every night. Story of the 2011 White Sox :-(...

I wonder if his wrist is bothering him? Anyone remember when he got hit on the wrist? First, when he was at the plate and then again fielding at 1st base.

billyvsox
05-27-2011, 10:20 PM
I feel like the Tribe is ready to fall apart and the Tigers arent all that great. If we could just get hot and turn this thing around, but I have no confidence that we have the ability, desire or makeup to do so.

It's like when your 10 games back after the all star break and someone says, "well if the 1st place team plays .500 all we have to do is go 35-18 to win this thing. but why would a team that sux all year go 35-18 down the stretch. We have to get moving now

Dan H
05-27-2011, 10:21 PM
No longer can we say it's early. We are almost into June, the team is still under .500 and is still hitting horribly. A third of the season is almost in the books. A guy who is making $14 million is worried he is going to embarrass himself. The number three hitter has almost half his RBIs in three games. While it is too early to give up, it is not too early about wondering what is going on with this team. Getting five or six hits a game doesn't cut it. Good or decent pitching performances are being wasted. Things just don't look good.

Crooked Number
05-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Time for tonight's putting the WhiteSox in a position to fail Ozzie Highlights:

Bunting with Dallas Macpherson with 1st and 2nd no one out. Anywho, forget checking the hitters stat sheet. A quick search that took me 3 seconds shows that Dallas has ZERO sac bunt attempts in his entire career. Yeah, thats 382 at bats without even attempting one. "Hey **** stats and **** you, i manage the team, not you." Of course he fouls off the bunts not even close which put him in the hole 1-2 and he strikes out.

And due to time constraints we only have one more. How about putting in Tony Pena in a one run game in the 8th inning? This guy has had absolutely nothing this year, and surprise to surprise he gets lit up, miraculously only giving up one run because the Jays suck. "**** you, its my ****ing team i do what i want"

I am not an Ozzie hater (but I am starting to get pretty meatball about him: see above), but this season has really shown that his time here is just about at an end. He did drop Dunn to 7, but it came about two weeks late. Ugh. These guys just cant get a hit to save their lives. Ozzie would get off the hook if the Sox offense could get him a god damn hit. Another easily winnable game slips through the fingers. The Jays were trying so hard to give that game to us it was comical.

Time to go get drunk :gulp:

JermaineDye05
05-27-2011, 10:23 PM
Time for tonight's putting the WhiteSox in a position to fail Ozzie Highlights:

Bunting with Dallas Macpherson with 1st and 2nd no one out. Anywho, forget checking the hitters stat sheet. A quick search that took me 3 seconds shows that Dallas has ZERO sac bunt attempts in his entire career. Yeah, thats 382 at bats without even attempting one. "Hey **** stats and **** you, i manage the team, not you." Of course he fouls off the bunts not even close which put him in the hole 1-2 and he strikes out.

And due to time constraints we only have one more. How about putting in Tony Pena in a one run game in the 8th inning? This guy has had absolutely nothing this year, and surprise to surprise he gets lit up, miraculously only giving up one run because the Jays suck. "**** you, its my ****ing team i do what i want"

I am not an Ozzie hater (but I am starting to get pretty meatball about him: see above), but this season has really shown that his time here is just about at an end. He did drop Dunn to 7, but it came about two weeks late. Ugh. These guys just cant get a hit to save their lives. Ozzie would get off the hook if the Sox offense could get him a god damn hit. Another easily winnable game slips through the fingers. The Jays were trying so hard to give that game to us it was comical.

Time to go get drunk :gulp:

Actually Dallas fouled off one bunt attempt.

Drabek fell behind 2-1. The bunt was then called off.

Dallas then swung at two bad pitches in the dirt.

I'm surprised Ozzie didn't unleash the Lillibeast to replace Gordon.

Crooked Number
05-27-2011, 10:32 PM
Actually Dallas fouled off one bunt attempt.

Drabek fell behind 2-1. The bunt was then called off.

Dallas then swung at two bad pitches in the dirt.

I'm surprised Ozzie didn't unleash the Lillibeast to replace Gordon.

They called off the bunt because they realized "holy **** this guy has never attempted a bunt since he came up in the bigs in 2004"

The inability for this team year after year to not get hits with less than two outs with runners on second or third is just uncanny. Running out of adjectives to describe it.

A. Cavatica
05-27-2011, 10:39 PM
It's still early.




Copyright (C) Chicago White Sox, 2007-2011

canOcorn
05-27-2011, 10:43 PM
It's still early.




Copyright (C) Chicago White Sox, 2007-2011

Watch out. We're approaching the 3 second window where we'll be in the hindsight window.

all*star quentin
05-27-2011, 10:49 PM
Garfien tweets, Beckham went to hospital.
Gonzo tweets, still at hospital with Schneider, oz thinks he'll be OK.



Here's a picture of his shiner :(:
http://lockerz.com/s/105382531

BringHomeDaBacon
05-27-2011, 10:49 PM
Time for tonight's putting the WhiteSox in a position to fail Ozzie Highlights:

Bunting with Dallas Macpherson with 1st and 2nd no one out. Anywho, forget checking the hitters stat sheet. A quick search that took me 3 seconds shows that Dallas has ZERO sac bunt attempts in his entire career. Yeah, thats 382 at bats without even attempting one. "Hey **** stats and **** you, i manage the team, not you." Of course he fouls off the bunts not even close which put him in the hole 1-2 and he strikes out.

And due to time constraints we only have one more. How about putting in Tony Pena in a one run game in the 8th inning? This guy has had absolutely nothing this year, and surprise to surprise he gets lit up, miraculously only giving up one run because the Jays suck. "**** you, its my ****ing team i do what i want"

I am not an Ozzie hater (but I am starting to get pretty meatball about him: see above), but this season has really shown that his time here is just about at an end. He did drop Dunn to 7, but it came about two weeks late. Ugh. These guys just cant get a hit to save their lives. Ozzie would get off the hook if the Sox offense could get him a god damn hit. Another easily winnable game slips through the fingers. The Jays were trying so hard to give that game to us it was comical.

Time to go get drunk :gulp:

Instead of letting the hitter freakin concentrate on having a good at bat the idiot manager has to insert himself and his bull**** strategy into the equation thereby lowering the hitter's chances of having a successful at bat. While he didn't succeed in giving the pitcher an out, he did succeed in giving him a strike.

Dan H
05-27-2011, 10:50 PM
It's still early.

Not anymore it isn't. The numbers game is catching up with this team. Not to mention it is hard to put a winning streak together when you are scoring two runs a game.

A. Cavatica
05-27-2011, 11:01 PM
Not anymore it isn't. The numbers game is catching up with this team. Not to mention it is hard to put a winning streak together when you are scoring two runs a game.




Teal = sarcasm

VenturaFan23
05-27-2011, 11:03 PM
Can anyone argue coherently that Walker deserves to retain his job?

I think we're about due for another one of his recycled excuse making articles.

russ99
05-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Instead of letting the hitter freakin concentrate on having a good at bat the idiot manager has to insert himself and his bull**** strategy into the equation thereby lowering the hitter's chances of having a successful at bat. While he didn't succeed in giving the pitcher an out, he did succeed in giving him a strike.

Really, enough of this whining about bunting. It's become tiresome and is covering up the real problem.

We had the bases loaded with 1 out, our 3 top run producers up and only got one run on a walk.

Bunting is not the problem here, guys not getting hits to score runs when we have runners in scoring position is, and it's happening much too often, mostly with our hitters who are getting paid big bucks to do that specific job.

I hope Bacon is OK.

Dan H
05-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Teal = sarcasm

I appreciate the sarcasm. I didn't see any teal.

tstrike2000
05-27-2011, 11:05 PM
Surprised Walker hasn't been nominated by MLB to instruct all other MLB hitting coaches.

soltrain21
05-27-2011, 11:19 PM
Really, enough of this whining about bunting. It's become tiresome and is covering up the real problem.

We had the bases loaded with 1 out, our 3 top run producers up and only got one run on a walk.

Bunting is not the problem here, guys not getting hits to score runs when we have runners in scoring position is, and it's happening much too often, mostly with our hitters who are getting paid big bucks to do that specific job.

I hope Bacon is OK.

Why don't you realize that both are problems?

canOcorn
05-27-2011, 11:27 PM
Really, enough of this whining about bunting. It's become tiresome and is covering up the real problem.

We had the bases loaded with 1 out, our 3 top run producers up and only got one run on a walk.

Bunting is not the problem here, guys not getting hits to score runs when we have runners in scoring position is, and it's happening much too often, mostly with our hitters who are getting paid big bucks to do that specific job.



Really? The manager is getting paid big bucks to put the team in the best position to win and he's failing that task, horribly. The "real problem" is Ozzie calling on people to bunt that cannot complete that task. I understand that Ozzie isn't in the teaching business, so if he's not going have bunting practice then he should stop asking players to bunt that do not have that skill.

Rikirk
05-27-2011, 11:28 PM
If we the fans can tell that Walker aint doing his job, or it seems that he aint doing his job. Why cant the powers that be see it and do something about it?
The team wants to win right?
Prove it!

What is the major malfunction?

Dibbs
05-27-2011, 11:32 PM
How Walker keeps his job is beyond me. He should have been fired years ago. I'm speechless and have nothing else to say about it.

TDog
05-28-2011, 12:05 AM
Actually Dallas fouled off one bunt attempt.

Drabek fell behind 2-1. The bunt was then called off.

Dallas then swung at two bad pitches in the dirt.

I'm surprised Ozzie didn't unleash the Lillibeast to replace Gordon.


I think Guillen wanted to put a better defensive team on the field with Buehrle pitching. He also has a short bench and less speed than he probably would like in the lineup. Lillibridge is the only legitimate pinch runner.

McPherson attempted a sacrific bunt in 2005, but bunted into a fielder's choice, if anyone cares.

It was interesting to see Dunn walk four times when hitting down in the order. I think that's more a reflection of the Blue Jays not wanting to pitch to him with Vizquel behind him than a reflection of Dunn being skilled at drawing walks.

If the Sox had a deeper bullpen and a five-man rotation, Buehrle likely would have come out after six with the game tied. And with the game tied, Pena wouldn't have come into the game unless the game went into extra innings.

One of the realities of a six-man rotation with only three relievers you can trust for an inning late (and some people would say two), is that the starters have to go deeper and the top relievers won't come into games if the White Sox are losing.

JB98
05-28-2011, 12:06 AM
Chalk up another game the Sox could have easily won. Put it in the loss column. It's early right.......no need to chew out the ballclub for swinging at bad pitches, not having ANY patience with a struggling pitcher (other then Dunn), throw in the manager with his bonehead moves (bringing in McPherson instead of Morel to hurt the defense (and offense 0-3 3 k's), having Pena add to the deficit,etc, etc.

Personally, I want Viciedo up now!!! Gray to replace Pena, Lillibridge to play more, Rios and Dunn to get benched for awhile. I know I am dreaming, but at least I can dream

Good luck with that. Gray pitches for the Seattle Mariners now:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/grayje02.shtml

JB98
05-28-2011, 12:08 AM
I wonder if his wrist is bothering him? Anyone remember when he got hit on the wrist? First, when he was at the plate and then again fielding at 1st base.

No. His wrist wasn't bothering him when he had three hits and three RBIs Saturday against the Dodgers. Just a few bad games for Paulie. He's been very consistent these first two months and was due for a little slump. That's all. Sadly, nobody in the middle of the order seems inclined to pick him up while he's struggling a little bit.

thomas35forever
05-28-2011, 12:11 AM
Most of the time, teams will not walk in runs, so we can't rely on that for our offense. Let's get some productive hits and hopefully, Gordon won't miss more than a few days.

JB98
05-28-2011, 12:11 AM
Really, enough of this whining about bunting. It's become tiresome and is covering up the real problem.

We had the bases loaded with 1 out, our 3 top run producers up and only got one run on a walk.

Bunting is not the problem here, guys not getting hits to score runs when we have runners in scoring position is, and it's happening much too often, mostly with our hitters who are getting paid big bucks to do that specific job.

I hope Bacon is OK.

Maybe it's not the biggest problem, but the decision to have McPherson bunt was still horse**** managing of the highest order.

As others have noted, McPherson doesn't have a sacrifice bunt in his MLB career. In addition, slow-footed Adam Dunn was the runner at second. The bunt would have needed to be absolutely perfect to advance Dunn to third. The chances of a successful sacrifice being executed with that personnel in that situation were probably less than five percent.

Nellie_Fox
05-28-2011, 01:05 AM
As others have noted, McPherson doesn't have a sacrifice bunt in his MLB career. In addition, slow-footed Adam Dunn was the runner at second. The bunt would have needed to be absolutely perfect to advance Dunn to third. The chances of a successful sacrifice being executed with that personnel in that situation were probably less than five percent.
http://img.listal.com/image/1721857/600full-blackadder-goes-forth-screenshot.jpg

Absolutely, Blackadder, that's the brilliance of the plan; they'd never expect us to try it!

captain54
05-28-2011, 01:06 AM
If we the fans can tell that Walker aint doing his job, or it seems that he aint doing his job. Why cant the powers that be see it and do something about it?

?

We the fans aren't qualified to have an opinion about Walker because we don't know what a hitting coach really does..

We've also been told that Sox management is smart enough to understand that if Walker was the really the problem with the offense he would have been gone long long ago....and that he could possibly be doing everything in his power to help these guys out and giving them all the right information, they just refuse to listen...or that the GM stocks the team with "swing for the fences" kinds of players and the hitting coach's hands are tied.

These are all the arguments from the people that believe that everyone should lay off Walker because he's not the problem.

Despite all of this, there is still one maddening question that's been on my mind for years now, that no one has seems to be able to really address.

The question is: if the general manager brings in what he thinks are productive offensive players, and the team as a whole is wildly inconsistent offensively in practically every year now for a while, what could possibly be the risk, or what could you possibly be losing by bringing in someone, anyone with a fresh/different offensive approach?

Hitmen77
05-28-2011, 01:06 AM
And the beat goes on...

:tiphat: :angry: :tiphat::cuss::tiphat::gah::tiphat::anon: :tiphat:

Another game, same old crappy White Sox offense. Paulie now in a major funk, seriously still waiting to see this "vaunted" offense catch fire. Wondering if it ever will... while they waste good starting pitching almost every night. Story of the 2011 White Sox :-(...

Sadly, this is not unique to 2011 for the White Sox. :mad:

russ99
05-28-2011, 01:25 AM
Maybe it's not the biggest problem, but the decision to have McPherson bunt was still horse**** managing of the highest order.

As others have noted, McPherson doesn't have a sacrifice bunt in his MLB career. In addition, slow-footed Adam Dunn was the runner at second. The bunt would have needed to be absolutely perfect to advance Dunn to third. The chances of a successful sacrifice being executed with that personnel in that situation were probably less than five percent.

Ludicrous. Put the bunt down the 3rd base line, and Dunn advances.

And sorry, McPherson getting behind the count when his attempted bunt failed is not the reason we lost. Besides, "Slow-footed" Dunn wouldn't have scored on a single anyway, and McPherson struck out swinging. We had 2 hits to that point, one of which a triple where we couldn't get the guy in.

It's obvious some of you have philosophical differences with our manager and bunting in general, but in a close game moving up runners is the right call.

I'm so sick of this lame excuse that if a guy isn't a prototypical leadoff guy or hasn't bunted often that he shouldn't bunt at all. No play in baseball is guaranteed to succeed. What's the point of managing the game then?

Should Ozzie take a nap and let these idiots hack away at bad pitches all day and just accept yet another dead-offense loss? Or should he try to make something happen?

doublem23
05-28-2011, 01:39 AM
I don't understand why it's seems to be so foreign to grasp the concept that some players just do not know how to bunt. Dallas has 0 sacrifice hits in his ENTIRE PROFESSIONAL CAREER. Even though he was brought up through the "speed-first" Angels organization, no one has ever asked him to lay bunts down.

I think we all have come to realize that these guys all suck and are horrible offensively. Taking the bats out of their hands and asking them to things that they just cannot do is not "trying to light a fire," it's "shooting yourself in the foot."

Anyways, the Sox fall back to 4th place, so Ozzie napping through a game might not be the worst thing. At least I wouldn't have to watch any more ridiculous bunt attempts.

SoxSpeed22
05-28-2011, 01:42 AM
Should I ask someone who has never driven a car before to give me a ride from here to Ohio?
Bunting with McPherson is kind of like that.

doublem23
05-28-2011, 01:50 AM
Should I ask someone who has never driven a car before to give me a ride from here to Ohio?
Bunting with McPherson is kind of like that.

It'd be like picking up Wakefield and then asking him to throw a steady diet of fastballs and traditional breaking balls.

And then questioning how a guy with 19 seasons under his belt could get lit up throwing pitches everyone else throws.

Lip Man 1
05-28-2011, 01:54 AM
Crooked:

Only thing I can think of to explain it is something JB has been advocating for awhile.

It's now mental with a team that apparently has guys that don't do very well in pressure situations.

I've said it in jest but when you think about it, perhaps it's not a bad idea, send these guys to a shrink.

Oh that and the fact that Greg Walker doesn't appear to be helping anybody anymore. It may not be his fault, it may be very unfair but this is a results business. Now what you did five years ago, three years ago, one year ago, one month ago or last week...but today, right now.

Five consecutive years now the Sox have come out of the gates like death warmed over, in fact I've seen more life in a morgue than these guys show on the bench.

The Sox have had a number of different players the past five years yet it seems almost constant, when they get to the Sox they struggle mightly. That is a constant, that and the coaching staff / manager has remained the same.

Lip

HaroMaster87
05-28-2011, 02:12 AM
The only explanation I can think of for pitching Pena in an actual meaningful situation is that a decision needs to made on the roster soon, right? And if this guy can ONLY pitch when the team is way ahead or way behind, then he's gotta be the one to go, right?

So hopefully thats what today was...them just making sure. What we all already knew...Tony Pena sucks...BAD.

StillMissOzzie
05-28-2011, 02:22 AM
I am really getting sick and tired of watching all of these above-average starting pitching performances get pissed away. And if Dunn isn't already embarrassed showing up for his paycheck, then 3-4K's per game isn't gonna change things.
I am worried that the starters are going to feel they need to be perfect to keep the game in reach, and that it will hurt their performance. And if the starting pitching starts to head south, this will be a long, LONG season.

SMO
:gulp:

TDog
05-28-2011, 02:37 AM
Ludicrous. Put the bunt down the 3rd base line, and Dunn advances.

And sorry, McPherson getting behind the count when his attempted bunt failed is not the reason we lost. Besides, "Slow-footed" Dunn wouldn't have scored on a single anyway, and McPherson struck out swinging. We had 2 hits to that point, one of which a triple where we couldn't get the guy in.

It's obvious some of you have philosophical differences with our manager and bunting in general, but in a close game moving up runners is the right call.

I'm so sick of this lame excuse that if a guy isn't a prototypical leadoff guy or hasn't bunted often that he shouldn't bunt at all. No play in baseball is guaranteed to succeed. What's the point of managing the game then?

Should Ozzie take a nap and let these idiots hack away at bad pitches all day and just accept yet another dead-offense loss? Or should he try to make something happen?

This seems obvious. McPherson didn't advance the runners by swinging away. He didn't pull a ground ball. He didn't even pull a fly ball to give Dunn a chance to move to third. If he advances both runners, the White Sox probably score two runs in the inning. Bunting was the right play. If you're a major leaguer who is bouncing back and fourth between the minors and majors in different organizations, developing bunting skills would enhance your chances of staying in the majors. If Beckham doesn't take a throw in the face, he has a better chance of bunting the runners over, but the problem isn't that Guillen asked McPherson to bunt. It wasn't like he failed to execute a suicide squeeze while he would have had a good chance to get the run in had he not been bunting.

The problem is that McPherson was unable to do anything at the plate. The Sox would have been better off if McPherson had reached on a fielder's choice forcing out Dunn at third. If you want to complain that Guillen screwed up, complain that he took off the bunt and didn't demand McPherson get his first career sacrifice. As it turned out, Dunn didn't score form second on a single or from third on a fly ball. That's the sort of not running into outs on the bases some fans are demanding certainly, but it required a bases loaded walk to score a run.

doublem23
05-28-2011, 02:54 AM
The problem is that McPherson was unable to do anything at the plate. The Sox would have been better off if McPherson had reached on a fielder's choice forcing out Dunn at third. If you want to complain that Guillen screwed up, complain that he took off the bunt and didn't demand McPherson get his first career sacrifice. As it turned out, Dunn didn't score form second on a single or from third on a fly ball. That's the sort of not running into outs on the bases some fans are demanding certainly, but it required a bases loaded walk to score a run.

Obviously you didn't watch the game because nobody would have scored on that soft single in front of the CF from 2nd or on that weak fly ball to shallow RF.

Yeah, the blame ultimately lies with McPherson who didn't get any job done of advancing any runners, but this speaks to the higher problem of the piss poor job Ozzie continues to do managing this team. You can yakkity yak all you want about how he "should" learn to bunt or how he "has to get that down at any cost," but here's reality... He's been in professional baseball for ten years and he has never successfully gotten a sacrifice hit. Ever. This doesn't speak to the whole bunting vs. not bunting debate, this is squarely on the "our manager doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed" debate. This is pure insanity, at this point.

SOXSINCE'70
05-28-2011, 08:07 AM
It's still early.




Copyright (C) Chicago White Sox, 2007-2011

"It's getting late early this year."
- Yogi Berra :(:

Will the REAL Chicago ****ing White Sox PLEASE,
for the love of God, stand up??
:angry:

TomBradley72
05-28-2011, 09:02 AM
It's just like 2007- simply too much crap on the roster.

If you need Vizquel at 44 to be a starter- you're in trouble.
If Dallas McPherson is getting playing time- you're in trouble.
If Tony Pena and Will Ohmann are on your staff- you're in trouble.
If your catcher can only throw out 10% percent of attempted steals- you're in trouble.

If your DH strikes out 190+ times/year and has a career batting average of .235 with RISP- you're in trouble.

Chez
05-28-2011, 09:03 AM
I didn't have a problem with Guillen's decsion to bunt in that situation. However, he did have two infielders sitting on the bench at the time who are actually good bunters -- Morel and Lillibridge. Why not pinch bunt/hit for McPherson? I realize McPherson bats left handed, but he's not much of a hitter.

I never thought I'd type these words, but maybe Teahen's bat will help this anemic offense. Cleveland and Detroit are wobbly right now; let's put together a little run.

October26
05-28-2011, 09:32 AM
Didn't get to watch last night's game but after reading this Postgame Thread it appears that I didn't miss anything. So disappointing to read the box score this morning and see yet another poor offensive performance by the White Sox. Why, o why can't the Sox hit with RISP? Ugh.

tstrike2000
05-28-2011, 09:48 AM
4th place heading into Memorial Day weekend in this division....who'd a thunk it.

Hitmen77
05-28-2011, 11:27 AM
No fractures for Beckham:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/breaking/cbsports-no-fractures-for-beckham-20110528,0,4501321.story?track=rss

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 11:56 AM
We the fans aren't qualified to have an opinion about Walker because we don't know what a hitting coach really does..

Walker is good at his job, so clearly a batting coach has nothing to do with hitting.

Maybe his job is to remove the bats that roost in the light towers?

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 12:01 PM
Will the REAL Chicago ****ing White Sox PLEASE,
for the love of God, stand up??
:angry:

Gee, what if the 2011 team -- which so resembles the team from mid-2006 through the end of 2010 -- really are the REAL Chicago ****ing White Sox?

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 12:12 PM
Maybe his job is to remove the bats that roost in the light towers?

He's been removing bats from the Sox hitters for years.

JB98
05-28-2011, 01:30 PM
Ludicrous. Put the bunt down the 3rd base line, and Dunn advances.

And sorry, McPherson getting behind the count when his attempted bunt failed is not the reason we lost. Besides, "Slow-footed" Dunn wouldn't have scored on a single anyway, and McPherson struck out swinging. We had 2 hits to that point, one of which a triple where we couldn't get the guy in.

It's obvious some of you have philosophical differences with our manager and bunting in general, but in a close game moving up runners is the right call.

I'm so sick of this lame excuse that if a guy isn't a prototypical leadoff guy or hasn't bunted often that he shouldn't bunt at all. No play in baseball is guaranteed to succeed. What's the point of managing the game then?

Should Ozzie take a nap and let these idiots hack away at bad pitches all day and just accept yet another dead-offense loss? Or should he try to make something happen?

You make me laugh. As I indicated, the bunt would have had to be executed perfectly to advance Dunn.

What in McPherson's history suggests to you he's capable of executing that?

It's horse**** managing. Horse****.

JB98
05-28-2011, 01:34 PM
This seems obvious. McPherson didn't advance the runners by swinging away. He didn't pull a ground ball. He didn't even pull a fly ball to give Dunn a chance to move to third. If he advances both runners, the White Sox probably score two runs in the inning. Bunting was the right play. If you're a major leaguer who is bouncing back and fourth between the minors and majors in different organizations, developing bunting skills would enhance your chances of staying in the majors. If Beckham doesn't take a throw in the face, he has a better chance of bunting the runners over, but the problem isn't that Guillen asked McPherson to bunt. It wasn't like he failed to execute a suicide squeeze while he would have had a good chance to get the run in had he not been bunting.

The problem is that McPherson was unable to do anything at the plate. The Sox would have been better off if McPherson had reached on a fielder's choice forcing out Dunn at third. If you want to complain that Guillen screwed up, complain that he took off the bunt and didn't demand McPherson get his first career sacrifice. As it turned out, Dunn didn't score form second on a single or from third on a fly ball. That's the sort of not running into outs on the bases some fans are demanding certainly, but it required a bases loaded walk to score a run.

No, the problem is that McPherson was ever in the game in the first place. Ozzie had other options when Beckham got hurt. Why did he use the guy who is going to be DFA when Teahen comes back in a few days?

Lillibridge is playing some decent ball for this club this year. Why not put him at 2B? He might be able to advance a runner in that situation.

McPherson being in the game in the first place = poor managing.
Asking McPherson to bunt = horse**** managing.

TDog
05-28-2011, 02:50 PM
...

Yeah, the blame ultimately lies with McPherson who didn't get any job done of advancing any runners, but this speaks to the higher problem of the piss poor job Ozzie continues to do managing this team. You can yakkity yak all you want about how he "should" learn to bunt or how he "has to get that down at any cost," but here's reality... He's been in professional baseball for ten years and he has never successfully gotten a sacrifice hit. Ever. This doesn't speak to the whole bunting vs. not bunting debate, this is squarely on the "our manager doesn't put his players in the best position to succeed" debate. This is pure insanity, at this point.

The problem wasn't with the strategy of bunting with McPherson. The problem wasn't with McPherson being asked to bunt on the first strike of his crucial at bat. Swinging away, McPherson didn't hit the ball fair all night. He came up three times and struck out three times. Being asked to produce by swinging away last night apparently was something he was incapable of doing.

The problem is not the manager asking players to do things they are not capable of doing. The problem is players not being capable of doing things they should be able to do. It's not even the minor league system's fault Ramirez never bunted in his life before playing for the White Sox and now he sometimes bunts on his own. McPherson came up through the Angels system where they don't learn fundamentals any better than the White Sox.

There are more problems with the roster than there are with management and coaching. But that could be said for most major league teams.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 03:09 PM
There are more problems with the roster than there are with management and coaching. But that could be said for most major league teams.

That is probably true.

But it's still the job of the manager to use the tools he has - however flawed they may be - in the most effective way possible. There is little evidence to suggest that Ozzie effectively uses the tools he has.

The bigger problem, though, is Walker's failure to improve the hitters he's paid to coach.

doublem23
05-28-2011, 09:23 PM
The problem wasn't with the strategy of bunting with McPherson. The problem wasn't with McPherson being asked to bunt on the first strike of his crucial at bat. Swinging away, McPherson didn't hit the ball fair all night. He came up three times and struck out three times. Being asked to produce by swinging away last night apparently was something he was incapable of doing.

The problem is not the manager asking players to do things they are not capable of doing. The problem is players not being capable of doing things they should be able to do. It's not even the minor league system's fault Ramirez never bunted in his life before playing for the White Sox and now he sometimes bunts on his own. McPherson came up through the Angels system where they don't learn fundamentals any better than the White Sox.

There are more problems with the roster than there are with management and coaching. But that could be said for most major league teams.

Then why the hell is our manager asking guys to do things he knows they can't do? You're trying to have a deep philosophical debate as to why guys don't know how to bunt or why teams don't teach a skill that's generally useless to most guys except for the speedy, powerless types like Juan Pierre. I'm only concerned with why our in game manager constantly, CONSTANTLY manages this team like he's never seen any of them play baseball before and tries to cram his 1-note style of baseball on guys who just cannot execute it.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eNYKAVe6Gq4/TWhG67qhrLI/AAAAAAAAAB8/yyUZ6yy6iKw/s1600/insane+stamp.jpg

I'd say we should fire Ozzie RIGHT ****ING NOW, but he should have to have a front row seat to watch this bull**** baseball team of his suck all year with us.

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 09:27 PM
I'd say we should fire Ozzie RIGHT ****ING NOW, but he should have to have a front row seat to watch this bull**** baseball team of his suck all year with us.

If they fired him, it wouldn't surprise me if we went on an immediate tear.

Doesn't really matter who replaces him, I think the team just wants him gone.

delben91
05-28-2011, 09:29 PM
If they fired him, it wouldn't surprise me if we went on an immediate tear.

Doesn't really matter who replaces him, I think the team just wants him gone.

I think Ozzie's decisions this year have been horse**** as much as the next guy, but it's a leap to go from the team maybe being apathetic to actively wanting him gone...

If you have any proof of this I'd like to see it.

A. Cavatica
05-28-2011, 09:37 PM
I think Ozzie's decisions this year have been horse**** as much as the next guy, but it's a leap to go from the team maybe being apathetic to actively wanting him gone...

If you have any proof of this I'd like to see it.

I have no proof, I just think that having a prick for a manager gets old awfully fast.

TDog
05-28-2011, 09:48 PM
That is probably true.

But it's still the job of the manager to use the tools he has - however flawed they may be - in the most effective way possible. There is little evidence to suggest that Ozzie effectively uses the tools he has.

The bigger problem, though, is Walker's failure to improve the hitters he's paid to coach.

The offense came back from three multi-run deficits today, the third after eight innings. In two of the last three losses, Dunn was up with runners on first and third with one out, first with the Sox down by a run, next with the score tied in extra innings.

No hitting coach is going to change Dunn's swing or approach to hitting. He is a veteran. If the idea came up in March that he should, consensus here would have deemed it idiotic. The White Sox signed Dunn because he is what he is, but they believed he would drive in runs. Asking Dunn to drive in a runner from third with less than two outs against a left-handed pitcher is not asking him to do something he is incapable of doing.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 10:18 PM
The offense came back from three multi-run deficits today, the third after eight innings. In two of the last three losses, Dunn was up with runners on first and third with one out, first with the Sox down by a run, next with the score tied in extra innings.

No hitting coach is going to change Dunn's swing or approach to hitting. He is a veteran. If the idea came up in March that he should, consensus here would have deemed it idiotic. The White Sox signed Dunn because he is what he is, but they believed he would drive in runs. Asking Dunn to drive in a runner from third with less than two outs against a left-handed pitcher is not asking him to do something he is incapable of doing.

Dunn isn't incapable of it, but he hasn't done it this year. Throughout his career it has been shown that Dunn doesn't make a lot of contact. Even in good years, he still strikes out a ton and hits for a low batting average. When he does make contact, it's usually a line drive right into the shift. Quentin makes a lot more contact. Quentin would be much more likely to hit the sac fly, especially against a LHP. In all of the scenarios Quentin faced: close/late, v. LHP, on the road, day game, he's got an OPS above .900. I thought pinch hitting Quentin for Dunn was the obvious move at the time.

Frater Perdurabo
05-28-2011, 10:20 PM
No hitting coach is going to change Dunn's swing or approach to hitting. He is a veteran. If the idea came up in March that he should, consensus here would have deemed it idiotic. The White Sox signed Dunn because he is what he is, but they believed he would drive in runs.

No, Walker should not have tried to mess with Dunn's approach in March.

But it's clear that so far Walker has not had any kind of positive influence on Dunn.

TomBradley72
05-29-2011, 07:38 AM
=Asking Dunn to drive in a runner from third with less than two outs against a left-handed pitcher is not asking him to do something he is incapable of doing.

Maybe not- Dunn has a .160 career batting average vs. LH relievers (from baseball reference.com)- and a .229 career batting average w/RISP.

My concern with Dunn is not his current slump- it's his career statistics outside of home runs and walks- between strike outs, batting average vs. lefties and batting average w/RISP- I don't think he'll be worth anywhere near what we're paying him.

He belongs in the same group with Todd Ritchie, Billy Koch, Mike MacDougal, Scott Linebrink, Mark Teahen, etc.

By comparison- the really good DH's we've had were much better w/RISP (career)-

Thomas- .321
Baines- .291
Thome- .282
Luzinski- .271
Kotsay- .267
Dunn- .229