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View Full Version : First Series Loss since May 4th Postgame Thread


JermaineDye05
05-25-2011, 04:49 PM
That sucked.

patbooyah
05-25-2011, 04:50 PM
Shocked that the whole Dunn vs. a lefty thing didn't work out. I mean, I wasn't expecting a hit, but figured a fly out was possible.

palehozenychicty
05-25-2011, 04:50 PM
Again, they had opportunities to win. But just couldn't cash in. By the way, AJ is done. We didn't need him this year.

SoxandtheCityTee
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
What happened on the second out in the ninth? Gameday is incomprehensible.

JermaineDye05
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
AJ's at-bats frustrate me so much.

Ozzie just confuses the hell out of me.

Oh well, get Toronto.

kittle42
05-25-2011, 04:51 PM
Another game, another set of questionable decisions by Ozzie coupled with horrible performance from the hitters.

In other words, same ****, different day.

I'll just say this: all are at fault, but you can't fire a lineup; you can fire a manager.

JermaineDye05
05-25-2011, 04:52 PM
What happened on the second out in the ninth? Gameday is incomprehensible.

Pop fly.

Kinsler tried to over the shoulder it in short right but dropped it.

Ball rolled to the RF who threw to second to force out Vizquel.

Gavin
05-25-2011, 04:52 PM
Pretty good managing there, Ozzie! It amazes me that despite the little influence the manager has over the course over the game Ozzie manages to **** up those situations more often than not.

Foulke You
05-25-2011, 04:52 PM
GIDPs, bad defense, and questionable decision making from Ozzie. This one had it all. The Rangers had no business winning this game. Time to head to Toronto and at least get a split.

ShooterMcGavin
05-25-2011, 04:52 PM
The offense can get 'em on and even over, but cannot get 'em in.

The GIDP is expected with this team.

Guillen had some questionable moves today.

miker
05-25-2011, 04:53 PM
Do we have a smiley showing the air getting let out of a balloon?

I really hope the pendulum isn't starting to swing in the "suck" direction...:o:

JermaineDye05
05-25-2011, 04:53 PM
Another game, another set of questionable decisions by Ozzie coupled with horrible performance from the hitters.

In other words, same ****, different day.

I'll just say this: all are at fault, but you can't fire a lineup; you can fire a manager.

You can also fire a hitting coach.

Why is it this team has such trouble cashing in with RISP?

DirtySox
05-25-2011, 04:54 PM
3rd loss this year where Sox pitching has allowed 3 hits or less.

Gavin
05-25-2011, 04:54 PM
You can also fire a hitting coach.

Why is it this team has such trouble cashing in with RISP?

Because a guy who is 0-fer against LHP just got called in to pinch hit against a LHP with RISP.

soltrain21
05-25-2011, 04:54 PM
You can also fire a hitting coach.

Why is it this team has such trouble cashing in with RISP?

Because they don't change their approach at the plate or try to go with the pitch. They are just trying to jack 9 run homers.

SoxandtheCityTee
05-25-2011, 04:55 PM
Pop fly.

Kinsler tried to over the shoulder it in short right but dropped it.

Ball rolled to the RF who threw to second to force out Vizquel.


Naturally. Thanks.

Man, the last 24 hours of sports in this town have my head aching.

tstrike2000
05-25-2011, 04:56 PM
The usual no offense. Now 4 in Toronto and 3 in Boston....ugh.

Hartman
05-25-2011, 04:59 PM
This team is quite an enigma.

kittle42
05-25-2011, 05:00 PM
Because they don't change their approach at the plate or try to go with the pitch. They are just trying to jack 9 run homers.

It worked yesterday!

kittle42
05-25-2011, 05:01 PM
This team is quite an enigma.

Enigmas, you can't figure out - this has been the same problem for almost 5 years.

AnkleSox
05-25-2011, 05:01 PM
Enigmas, you can't figure out - this has been the same problem for almost 5 years.

Pretty much almost 10 years if you exclude 2005.

DirtySox
05-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Up next: Morrow, Drabek, Villanueva, & Romero set to pitch for Toronto.

Only confident against Morrow. The Sox have never faced Drabek, and only two players have faced Villanueva. Romero is Romero, and he's good.

Crestani
05-25-2011, 05:03 PM
Another game, another set of questionable decisions by Ozzie coupled with horrible performance from the hitters.

In other words, same ****, different day.

I'll just say this: all are at fault, but you can't fire a lineup; you can fire a manager.


How about firing the General Manager...??? He is the one responsible for Dunn & Rios..!!

Soxfest
05-25-2011, 05:05 PM
Sox are great at stealing defeat from the jaws of victory over and over with guys on 3rd and less than 2 outs.:angry:

SoxSpeed22
05-25-2011, 05:09 PM
Bad defense dooms Floyd. Wilson is a good pitcher but the lack of adjustments and adapting is absurd. This better not start a losing streak because this road trip could be brutal.

JermaineDye05
05-25-2011, 05:09 PM
As punishment, the team should cancel their flight and instead take the Spruce Moose to Toronto.

58JsLdb2wHw

BainesHOF
05-25-2011, 05:10 PM
This team continues to show that it has no chance of doing anything.

We're bad at second base, third base, center field, designated hitter and catcher. That's five positions if you're scoring at home.

Irishsox1
05-25-2011, 05:10 PM
The Rios-o-meter burning it up at .206!

palehozenychicty
05-25-2011, 05:11 PM
Pretty much almost 10 years if you exclude 2005.

Exactly. I think we have enough of a sample size to conclude that this approach to hitting is not working.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-25-2011, 05:11 PM
This team continues to show that it has no chance of doing anything.

We're bad at second base, third base, center field, designated hitter and catcher. That's five positions if you're scoring at home.

You forgot left field.

palehozenychicty
05-25-2011, 05:17 PM
You forgot left field.

I believe in Beckham and Morel as players. I just don't believe in this management to get the best out of them. Even Ramirez still has fits of inconsistent play.

DirtySox
05-25-2011, 05:18 PM
The Rios-o-meter burning it up at .206!

His .582 OPS is pretty sickening.

palehozenychicty
05-25-2011, 05:20 PM
His .582 OPS is pretty sickening.

Worse, his contract goes until '14! :angry:

SoxSpeed22
05-25-2011, 05:23 PM
His .582 OPS is pretty sickening.

Worse, his contract goes until '14! :angry:http://static.tumblr.com/ljtpt7a/dUzll5m7q/stress-fry-futurama.jpg

JB98
05-25-2011, 05:23 PM
C.J. Wilson is a left-hander with a changeup. The Sox have never had a plan on how to handle such pitchers during the Greg Walker Era. In addition, Wilson had a pretty decent slider, so no chance right there.

No excuse for not hitting the Texas bullpen. None. Not a single one of those relief pitchers had good stuff. Not even Feliz, who was all over the place. Inexcusable to not come through.

The defense in the third inning was horrendous. Both Beckham and Rios allowed men on that should not have reached. They both scored.

Disgusting loss.

asindc
05-25-2011, 05:28 PM
Because they don't change their approach at the plate or try to go with the pitch. They are just trying to jack 9 run homers.

When I was listening to the Tampa announcers during the series at Tampa, they said exactly that about our lineup.

russ99
05-25-2011, 05:28 PM
Because they don't change their approach at the plate or try to go with the pitch. They are just trying to jack 9 run homers.

This seems obvious to everyone. Why isn't it obvious to Ozzie, Kenny and Jerry?

I'm sick to death of the "they work hard on it, but then go back to their bad habits at the plate" excuse.

TDog
05-25-2011, 05:31 PM
What happened on the second out in the ninth? Gameday is incomprehensible.

Gameday has problems with the non-routine.

A blooper to center went off of Kinsler's glove and rolled to the right fielder who threw to the shortstop covering second to force Vizquel, who didn't have a chance to get to second quicker because Kinsler looked like he would catch the Rios blooper. Quentin went to third on the play. I'm sure that question was answered already because I'm going to have more to say on the game.

The offense was pretty much what I expected after last night. The difference in the game was the Beckham error. Floyd pitching out of the stretch for the first time gives up a double to the next hitter. The Rangers get a sacrifice fly and a hit through the drawn-in infield. The second run was earned, but I don't know that the Rangers get the double if Floyd is pitching out of the windup.

Two hits in the Rangers third might not have but for the error, and the Rangers only got three hits in their eight innings up to bat. Floyd was actually very sharp today. I was most impressed, not with the Rangers not hitting so much after the late night, but with Floyd's control. His only walk came when he came out to start the eighth when he was probably out of gas. And, of course, if he had been getting behind hitters, the Rangers would have had better counts to hit in and would have had more than three hits. Floyd really pitched a great game.

The double plays killed the Sox, of course. The only defensive mistake the Rangers made came in the ninth when the forceout was there. If that had come with two outs, the game would have been tied and Vizquel would have been at third.

The only managerial move I would question from Guillen was putting Dunn in to pinch-hit, knowing a lefty would come in. I can imagine what he was thinking, though. Many of the outs Dunn has been making against lefties have been fly balls and ground balls/line drives into the shift, which wouldn't be as extreme (I didn't have the opportunity to see if it was employed at all) with the tying run on third and one out and a double play possible to preserve the lead. It isn't a move I would have made. I would have sent up Vizquel and maybe even bunted to tie the game. I don't know if Washington would have brought in the lefty to face Vizquel, but with the speed of the best hitter in the Sox lineup due next inning and Lillibridge in right, Vizquel was the only viable pinch-runner, unless you want to use a starting pitcher, who probably would need to go to the clubhouse to put on his spikes.

When you're carrying 12 pitchers and starting nine position players, including the DH who won't come into the game for defense if the game is in question, your moves are limited. The didn't make that many moves today and still cleared the bench. Dunn, all things considered, seemed a better choice than McPherson to pinch-hit even though McPherson was coming in to the game on defense.

It's too bad. The Sox should have scored in the eighth. Really, they should have scored more than one in the seventh and they should have scored with two walks in the ninth. The Rangers only scored at all because of a bad defensive play by someone who has been playing great defense.

It would have been worse if this game had gone extra innings and the Sox would have burned out their bullpen after last night, but that doesn't make losing today in nine a positive thing.

shingo10
05-25-2011, 05:32 PM
Rios and Dunn are killing this team. Killing it.

Lip Man 1
05-25-2011, 05:46 PM
The rest of this road trip could be ugly.

8th loss this year where the Sox held an opponent to three runs or less.

Lip

johnnyg83
05-25-2011, 05:47 PM
3rd loss this year where Sox pitching has allowed 3 hits or less.

This makes me want to burn down an abandoned orphanage.

LongLiveFisk
05-25-2011, 05:49 PM
The rest of this road trip coulk be ugly.

8th loss this year where the Sox held an opponent to three runs or less.

Lip

If we only had some hitting, we'd be really, really dangerous with this pitching staff right now.

(Oh wait, I'm getting deja vu. I think I typed that already very recently.)

Crooked Number
05-25-2011, 05:52 PM
3rd loss this year where Sox pitching has allowed 3 hits or less.

That is just...ugh. Hard to believe.

TDog
05-25-2011, 06:03 PM
That is just...ugh. Hard to believe.

Not when you factor in walks and errors and conditions/circumstances that make hitting difficult for both teams.

Today the Sox probably have the lead going into the bottom of the ninth but for an error in the third inning.

Foulke You
05-25-2011, 06:14 PM
Up next: Morrow, Drabek, Villanueva, & Romero set to pitch for Toronto.

Only confident against Morrow. The Sox have never faced Drabek, and only two players have faced Villanueva. Romero is Romero, and he's good.
The Romero game will be the toughest of the four. The key for Sox pitchers will be to not let Jose Bautista beat you. Honorable mention to Sox killer Corey Patterson in that Blue Jay lineup as someone to watch out for. Fortunately for us, Marco Scutaro and Frank Catalanatto are long gone.

captain54
05-25-2011, 06:24 PM
That is just...ugh. Hard to believe.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe....we've been watching the same #### for years now..

SI1020
05-25-2011, 06:59 PM
Again, they had opportunities to win. But just couldn't cash in. By the way, AJ is done. We didn't need him this year. We have no replacement for him, so what do you suggest?

Tragg
05-25-2011, 07:08 PM
Meanwhile, the manager orders a team that struggle at scoring to make intentional outs.
Guillen's ego first; team second. What an anchor he is.

WSox597
05-25-2011, 07:27 PM
Ozzie is going to look REAL good next year in that Marlins' uniform.

I won't even bother going for teal.

I realize he can't hit or catch or throw, but as numerous people have said, you can't fire the team. Especially one making this kind of money.

Just start again, please, with a new manager. Make the pain only last a couple of years. A new regime, clean house, draft well, have a nice day.

This is almost unwatchable.

LITTLE NELL
05-25-2011, 07:37 PM
Back to the drawing board.
I was looking at a 5-5 road trip with 2 wins in Texas, 2 in Toronto and 1 in Boston. Maybe we can win 3 in Toronto but I won't bet on it.

A. Cavatica
05-25-2011, 08:35 PM
This team continues to show that it has no chance of doing anything.

We're bad at second base, third base, center field, designated hitter and catcher. That's five positions if you're scoring at home.

Don't forget left field.

tstrike2000
05-25-2011, 08:36 PM
This makes me want to burn down an abandoned orphanage.

Good thing you added the word abandoned.

Dan H
05-25-2011, 08:46 PM
I didn't see the game so I can't comment on anything except I thought it was time for Ozzie to go a long time ago. It is only one loss, but each loss puts off the team from working its way back to .500. And each loss only reminds us of the hole this team has put itself into.

mmmmmbeeer
05-25-2011, 08:58 PM
I wanted Ozzie fired 2 years ago so, it's with a lump in my throat, that I actually commend Ozzie for ph'ing Dunn. The guy is getting paid a lot of money and not to be a platoon hitter. He's paid to drive in runs and he failed....miserably.

tstrike2000
05-25-2011, 09:17 PM
C.J. Wilson is a left-hander with a changeup. The Sox have never had a plan on how to handle such pitchers during the Greg Walker Era. In addition, Wilson had a pretty decent slider, so no chance right there.

No matter how many times it's stated, this has always summed up the Sox homer-happy offense. A steady diet of off-speed and breaking pitches are the Achilles heel for this team.

beasly213
05-25-2011, 09:20 PM
Sucky loss but if the Sox can get at .500 by the end of the first week in June they will have a shot to make the summer interesting. Plus good old inter league play should help the Sox out. I hope..

johnnyg83
05-25-2011, 09:24 PM
Good thing you added the word abandoned.

It's just baseball.

tstrike2000
05-25-2011, 09:40 PM
It's just baseball.

I know, just joking with you. Watching this team can be beyond aggravating.

Jurr
05-25-2011, 10:02 PM
No matter how many times it's stated, this has always summed up the Sox homer-happy offense. A steady diet of off-speed and breaking pitches are the Achilles heel for this team.

Happened under Von Joshua. Happened under Ward. Happened under Walker. The common denominator is a front office that continues to believe in veterans that swing at a fastball anywhere close to the plate and have no plan against offspeed pitches. It is downright sickening.

If I am an NFL GM, and I keep fielding teams that are weak up front and can't stop the run, I get canned after a few years. I obviously show that I cannot build a competent roster.

Reinsdorf cannot continue to offer free passes to his staff because he gets misty when watching the 2005 videos.

gogosox675
05-25-2011, 10:17 PM
If we only had some hitting, we'd be really, really dangerous with this pitching staff right now.

(Oh wait, I'm getting deja vu. I think I typed that already very recently.)
That's what makes this so painful to watch. The Sox would be way out in front of the division if they could hit, especially since they've played Cleveland so well.

BainesHOF
05-25-2011, 11:19 PM
You forgot left field.

Pierre was bad, but he has, I believe, a 10-game hitting streak.

palehozenychicty
05-26-2011, 05:46 AM
We have no replacement for him, so what do you suggest?

They'll have to get a young catcher in any move they make. I love what AJ has done in the past, but he's not a difference maker anymore.

Frater Perdurabo
05-26-2011, 07:29 AM
They'll have to get a young catcher in any move they make. I love what AJ has done in the past, but he's not a difference maker anymore.

Oh, AJ makes a difference, just not to the benefit of the Sox.

SI1020
05-26-2011, 08:28 AM
They'll have to get a young catcher in any move they make. I love what AJ has done in the past, but he's not a difference maker anymore. I agree.

DrCrawdad
05-26-2011, 09:01 AM
The offense can get 'em on and even over, but cannot get 'em in.

The GIDP is expected with this team.

Guillen had some questionable moves today.

Want to get drunk, fast?

Play the White Sox Game-Thread Drinking Game:

GIDP? Two drinks.
LOB? One for one.
E? One.

12 drinks yesterday.

russ99
05-26-2011, 10:22 AM
Meanwhile, the manager orders a team that struggle at scoring to make intentional outs.
Guillen's ego first; team second. What an anchor he is.

Striking out and swinging for the fences is a much more of an "intentional" out than trying to score in a close game.

But keep blaming Ozzie for trying when our so-called run producers fail again and again.

GoSox2K3
05-26-2011, 10:27 AM
Want to get drunk, fast?

Play the White Sox Game-Thread Drinking Game:

GIDP? Two drinks.
LOB? One for one.
E? One.

12 drinks yesterday.

So, I guess yesterday was more of a "baseball stupid" Sox game instead of a "tip your cap" Sox game.


White Sox Baseball: ALL IN BASEBALL STUPID!!!!

kittle42
05-26-2011, 10:37 AM
But keep blaming Ozzie for trying when our so-called run producers fail again and again.

You cannot, during a season, fire a whole lineup that underperforms. You can fire a manager who makes decisions that do not put his underperforming players in the best position to come through, regardless of the eventual result.

End of story. But I expect no response from you, as in these threads, when your position is well-countered, you seem to just go to another thread and repeat the same thing.

russ99
05-26-2011, 11:03 AM
You cannot, during a season, fire a whole lineup that underperforms. You can fire a manager who makes decisions that do not put his underperforming players in the best position to come through, regardless of the eventual result.

End of story. But I expect no response from you, as in these threads, when your position is well-countered, you seem to just go to another thread and repeat the same thing.

While I understand the concept of firing a manager instead of players as more feasable, how is the position that bunting is a strategy that many successful managers use around the league countered here?

IMO, bunting runners over to scoring position may not put players "in a position to succeed" personally or pad their stats, but rather gives the team a better chance to succeed, which is what this is all about.

But let's keep slugging our way to losses.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-26-2011, 11:03 AM
Meanwhile, the manager orders a team that struggle at scoring to make intentional outs.
Guillen's ego first; team second. What an anchor he is.

Between the sac bunts, caught stealings and outs trying to advance an extra base, this team gives away about an inning per game.

russ99
05-26-2011, 11:06 AM
Between the sac bunts, caught stealings and outs trying to advance an extra base, this team gives away about an inning per game.

I guess we forgot how bad this team was a few years ago playing station-to-station wait for the 3-run homer baseball.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-26-2011, 11:13 AM
I guess we forgot how bad this team was a few years ago playing station-to-station wait for the 3-run homer baseball.

Sure, so let's just go ahead and try to shove a square peg into a round hole.

Regardless of what you way, the basic strategy of ANY offense is to AVOID making outs.

russ99
05-26-2011, 11:18 AM
Sure, so let's just go ahead and try to shove a square peg into a round hole.

Regardless of what you way, the basic strategy of ANY offense is to AVOID making outs.

How is this a "square peg"? We have athletic players who can play more aggressive baseball. The team has more of a balance, we're not a 16 inch softball team anymore. Some managers avoid outs like the plague, some managers sometimes give an out in order to get a run.

Some of you guys would have loved the '78 Sox, but the league isn't like that anymore.

kittle42
05-26-2011, 11:21 AM
While I understand the concept of firing a manager instead of players as more feasable, how is the position that bunting is a strategy that many successful managers use around the league countered here?

IMO, bunting runners over to scoring position may not put players "in a position to succeed" personally or pad their stats, but rather gives the team a better chance to succeed, which is what this is all about.

But let's keep slugging our way to losses.

I guess we forgot how bad this team was a few years ago playing station-to-station wait for the 3-run homer baseball.

You do not bunt, like practically ever, with guys who have shown TIME AND AGAIN that they cannot execute a bunt. Alexei Ramirez is one of these people. The Sox have others, as well, but he is the primary culprit. So how do we solve this problem? Either teach him to bunt (which they have reportedly tried to no avail), or bunt with him as often as you would with Paul Konerko. "Bunting is a strategy used around the league" is not a defense for a manager who calls for bunts in situations and with personnel that create a huge chance of failure. This is not a hard concept to understand.

The "station to station" argument also is flawed. A team can have speed and not feel the need to steal bases and bunt constantly - there is a huge difference between being able to go from first to third or second to home and giving up outs to (successfully or unsuccessfully) move guys over.

kittle42
05-26-2011, 11:24 AM
Some managers avoid outs like the plague, some managers sometimes give an out in order to get a run.

Proper strategy should be employed in proper situations. People here saying "never, ever bunt" are kind of silly, but that is not my argument. My argument is that Ozzie makes decisions to bunt and steal seemingly independent of the personnel he has doing it. And let's not get into bullpen management.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-26-2011, 11:33 AM
You do not bunt, like practically ever, with guys who have shown TIME AND AGAIN that they cannot execute a bunt. Alexei Ramirez is one of these people. The Sox have others, as well, but he is the primary culprit. So how do we solve this problem? Either teach him to bunt (which they have reportedly tried to no avail), or bunt with him as often as you would with Paul Konerko. "Bunting is a strategy used around the league" is not a defense for a manager who calls for bunts in situations and with personnel that create a huge chance of failure. This is not a hard concept to understand.

The "station to station" argument also is flawed. A team can have speed and not feel the need to steal bases and bunt constantly - there is a huge difference between being able to go from first to third or second to home and giving up outs to (successfully or unsuccessfully) move guys over.

In addition to the player's ability to bunt the manager needs to consider the player's ability to HIT. The lower the quality of hitter, the better the decision to bunt. Ozzie fails to consider either. Another thing he fails to consider is the FOLLOWING player's abilities. So far, we have seen him bunt a player to second for Adam Dunn (who does not hit singles) and players to third for Pierre (who does not hit the ball further than 200 feet).

He completely fails to consider the OPPORTUNITY COST of forgoing the bunter's chance to do something productive.

In the past three games we've seen Konerko thrown out at second and AJ at home. There is zero reason for either player to ever take a chance on the bases.

Bunting may slightly increase the chances of scoring one run, but it vastly decreases the chances of scoring more than one run.

Also, there's no need to bunt versus crappy or struggling pitchers.

Like someone said, OG is more concerned with his ego than the team. "Hey look, I manufactured a run."

kittle42
05-26-2011, 11:46 AM
In addition to the player's ability to bunt the manager needs to consider the player's ability to HIT. The lower the quality of hitter, the better the decision to bunt. Ozzie fails to consider either. Another thing he fails to consider is the FOLLOWING player's abilities. So far, we have seen him bunt a player to second for Adam Dunn (who does not hit singles) and players to third for Pierre (who does not hit the ball further than 200 feet).

He completely fails to consider the OPPORTUNITY COST of forgoing the bunter's chance to do something productive.

In the past three games we've seen Konerko thrown out at second and AJ at home. There is zero reason for either player to ever take a chance on the bases.

Bunting may slightly increase the chances of scoring one run, but it vastly decreases the chances of scoring more than one run.

Also, there's no need to bunt versus crappy or struggling pitchers.

Like someone said, OG is more concerned with his ego than the team. "Hey look, I manufactured a run."

Bingo on all of this.

russ99?

TomBradley72
05-26-2011, 11:54 AM
Some of you guys would have loved the '78 Sox, but the league isn't like that anymore.

The 1978 White Sox?

Ron Bloomberg, Claudell Washington, Bill Nahorodny, Ralph Garr, Bob Molinaro, Harry Chappas, Bobby Bonds, Jim Breazeale, Mike Colbern?

asindc
05-26-2011, 11:59 AM
The 1978 White Sox?

Ron Bloomberg, Claudell Washington, Bill Nahorodny, Ralph Garr, Bob Molinaro, Harry Chappas, Bobby Bonds, Jim Breazeale, Mike Colbern?

I think he meant the Southside Hitmen of 1977.

LongLiveFisk
05-26-2011, 12:21 PM
The 1978 White Sox?

Ron Bloomberg, Claudell Washington, Bill Nahorodny, Ralph Garr, Bob Molinaro, Harry Chappas, Bobby Bonds, Jim Breazeale, Mike Colbern?

You neglected to mention my personal favorites Wayne Nordhagen and Eric Soderholm, although I was only 7 years old. :D:

Hitmen77
05-26-2011, 12:27 PM
The 1978 White Sox?

Ron Bloomberg, Claudell Washington, Bill Nahorodny, Ralph Garr, Bob Molinaro, Harry Chappas, Bobby Bonds, Jim Breazeale, Mike Colbern?

I remember that Washington was dogging it so badly on the field for the Sox that fans had a sign that said "Washington Slept Here".

hawkjt
05-26-2011, 01:15 PM
The error on Beckham was very questionable,as it was hit like a rocket and could have easily been ruled a hit. Just a shame that Gavin had that one inning where they bunched three ''hits'',including the rocket to Gordo,and pushed across two runs.

As much as fans complain about the bunt,the 3 double plays immediately after hits are more frustrating to me.

Rios has had like 5 good months as a sox player,and now has had 5 bad months....c'mon Alex,you gotta do better. Just cannot figure out how he could turn it on and off like this...1st two months-bad,next 5 months-good,last 3 months- bad. ***?

I cringed when Ozzie put in Dunn to face the lefty with the tying run on third and 1 out.....Dunn has been ridiculously bad vs lefties. No chance.

Brutal loss,really,as Gavin pitched so well. Oh well,on to the next one.

russ99
05-26-2011, 01:16 PM
I think he meant the Southside Hitmen of 1977.

Yes I did.

So I guess the Sox are supposed to just forget that Alexei can ever put down a bunt in his career? Sorry, that's a cop out.

The strategy here is to set up runners in scoring position for our run producers. The problem here isn't bunting, it's our run producers failing, especially Dunn and Rios.

Also, it's an even bigger failure with these guys flailing for the fences, since it's obvious the situation calls for them to shorten their swing and go the other way to drive the run in.

Flat out, this team sucks at situational baseball. I guess Ozzie's supposed to give up and stop trying to get a run across?

Also, I very much doubt that Ozzie's playing for a run in close games because of his ego. He's using the bunt at most 1-2 times a game, when the situation calls for it.

Crooked Number
05-26-2011, 01:23 PM
In addition to the player's ability to bunt the manager needs to consider the player's ability to HIT. The lower the quality of hitter, the better the decision to bunt. Ozzie fails to consider either. Another thing he fails to consider is the FOLLOWING player's abilities. So far, we have seen him bunt a player to second for Adam Dunn (who does not hit singles) and players to third for Pierre (who does not hit the ball further than 200 feet).

He completely fails to consider the OPPORTUNITY COST of forgoing the bunter's chance to do something productive.

In the past three games we've seen Konerko thrown out at second and AJ at home. There is zero reason for either player to ever take a chance on the bases.

Bunting may slightly increase the chances of scoring one run, but it vastly decreases the chances of scoring more than one run.

Also, there's no need to bunt versus crappy or struggling pitchers.

Like someone said, OG is more concerned with his ego than the team. "Hey look, I manufactured a run."

Terrific post. Found myself nodding my head in agreement throughout. Something that the Sox have been missing is the Iguchi type player. The guy was a key component to our championship squad. I think we were all hoping/expecting that by now Gordon would have filled that role (and then some). Unfortunately, it hasn't turned out that way and once again this team is in the all or nothing category. Homeruns or lose. The last two games are a perfect example. If Carlos hits two doubles and one homerun, Sox probably lose. Sox dont hit any homers and lose 2-1. Same old song and dance, year after year.

JB98
05-26-2011, 01:32 PM
How is this a "square peg"? We have athletic players who can play more aggressive baseball. The team has more of a balance, we're not a 16 inch softball team anymore. Some managers avoid outs like the plague, some managers sometimes give an out in order to get a run.

Some of you guys would have loved the '78 Sox, but the league isn't like that anymore.

I have about 51 games of evidence that suggest otherwise.

This club is awful on the bases. They are awful at bunting. They are terrible at stealing bases. Maybe one or two hit-and-runs have been executed properly all year. They are brutal. They blow defensively, too.

Tragg
05-26-2011, 01:57 PM
How is this a "square peg"? We have athletic players who can play more aggressive baseball. The team has more of a balance, we're not a 16 inch softball team anymore. Some managers avoid outs like the plague, some managers sometimes give an out in order to get a run.

Some of you guys would have loved the '78 Sox, but the league isn't like that anymore.

No we don't. We have old guys who can't run on this team.

The more unsuccessful the team is at bunting, the harder Guillen will insist on bunting.


Bunting increases your chances of scoring 1 run when you have a runner on 2nd and no one out. That should be used when 1 run wins the game; or in some cases, perhaps, if it ties the game (low-scoring late inning game if you are at home).

kittle42
05-26-2011, 03:02 PM
Yes I did.

So I guess the Sox are supposed to just forget that Alexei can ever put down a bunt in his career? Sorry, that's a cop out.

The strategy here is to set up runners in scoring position for our run producers. The problem here isn't bunting, it's our run producers failing, especially Dunn and Rios.

Also, it's an even bigger failure with these guys flailing for the fences, since it's obvious the situation calls for them to shorten their swing and go the other way to drive the run in.

Flat out, this team sucks at situational baseball. I guess Ozzie's supposed to give up and stop trying to get a run across?

Also, I very much doubt that Ozzie's playing for a run in close games because of his ego. He's using the bunt at most 1-2 times a game, when the situation calls for it.

How is this so hard to grasp? If you have players who are not very good (or just flat out TERRIBLE) at doing something, you have an opportunity to change your managing strategy so as to avoid having those players trying to do it.

TDog
05-26-2011, 03:31 PM
Between the sac bunts, caught stealings and outs trying to advance an extra base, this team gives away about an inning per game.

Don't forget the double plays the team hits into when they aren't sacrificing, getting thrown out stealing and trying to take the extra base.

The runner is in motion on 3-2 to stay out of the ground-ball double play. The runner is in motion so often on the Sox because the Sox with runners on first ground into so many double plays.

If after Pierre leads off the game with a single yesterday, he gets caught stealing, Ramirez doesn't ground into the double play. Just as many outs are given away.

On the other hand, if Ramirez had sacrificed Pierre to second, the Sox might have given away one less out by giving away an out with a sacrifice. If Dunn had given away an out with a sacrifice fly instead of giving away an out as he so often does, by failing to hit the ball fair, the Sox would have tied the game. If Vizquel had been pinch-hitting and given away an out by squeezing in the run, he would have tied the game.

kittle42
05-26-2011, 04:20 PM
Don't forget the double plays the team hits into when they aren't sacrificing, getting thrown out stealing and trying to take the extra base.

The runner is in motion on 3-2 to stay out of the ground-ball double play. The runner is in motion so often on the Sox because the Sox with runners on first ground into so many double plays.

If after Pierre leads off the game with a single yesterday, he gets caught stealing, Ramirez doesn't ground into the double play. Just as many outs are given away.

On the other hand, if Ramirez had sacrificed Pierre to second, the Sox might have given away one less out by giving away an out with a sacrifice. If Dunn had given away an out with a sacrifice fly instead of giving away an out as he so often does, by failing to hit the ball fair, the Sox would have tied the game. If Vizquel had been pinch-hitting and given away an out by squeezing in the run, he would have tied the game.

So now you are constantly assuming a double play and making decisions based on that?

canOcorn
05-26-2011, 10:39 PM
So now you are constantly assuming a double play and making decisions based on that?

Didn't you know that hitting into a DP is giving up two outs? :rolleyes:

TDog
05-27-2011, 12:26 AM
So now you are constantly assuming a double play and making decisions based on that?

I'm not assuming a double play. You don't sacrifice to avoid a double play, although because that is one effect, people who don't fully understand the nuances of the game may think that is why teams sacrifice.

But, if you, as a manager, are frustrated by your team hitting into double plays, you are more likely to send runners from first with a full count and less than two outs. You are more likely to hit and run with slower runners on first. (The hit and run is executed more in the National League these days. Traditionally, it involves baserunners without great speed.) If you can't get runners into scoring position because your hitters aren't advancing lead-off base runners with either hits or productive outs, and you are playing close games, you are more likely to sacrifice.

Fundamentally, if you have a runner on second with none out in a tie or one-run game, your job as a hitter is to advance the runner to third. Fundamentally, when you come up down by a run, tied or with the lead, your job is to bring the run in. Fundamental baseball teams make a lot of productive outs. And there are players who prefer to bunt, sometimes even bunt on their own, to advance runners because setting up a game winning or tying sacrifice fly with a groundout to the second baseman will cost you points on your batting average that sacrifice bunts do not.

Bunting, executing the hit-and-run, attempting to steal bases will put pressure on the defense. So far this season, it appears that the White Sox have run into more outs while doing so, although the two one-run wins in Oakland involved A's defensive mistakes that were forced by the threat of stealing and by bunting. Fans might not notice games where such plays make a difference in wins. They are more likely to notice when they see their team "running into outs."

There was a post in a postgame thread recently expressing disappointment with the Sox that they were winning games because of defensive mistakes. Many close games by many teams at all levels of baseball are decided by defensive mistakes, and a great many defensive mistakes are forced.

Strikeouts rarely put pressure on the defense. Teams not putting pressure on the defense by not taking the extra base, going one base at a time, not putting runners into motion, are more likely to hit into double plays.

canOcorn
05-27-2011, 12:33 AM
. You don't sacrifice to avoid a double play, although because that is one effect, people who don't fully understand the nuances of the game may think that is why teams sacrifice.



Thanks Oney!

Nellie_Fox
05-27-2011, 12:52 AM
Regardless of what you way, the basic strategy of ANY offense is to AVOID making outs.No, the basic strategy is to make effective use of your outs.

TDog
05-27-2011, 01:19 AM
Thanks Oney!

I find the statement you bolded so inoffensive and so basic to fundamental baseball that I have no idea why anyone would have a problem with it.

I don't know of anyone who believes that a team should give up an out to stay out of a double play.