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RKMeibalane
07-08-2002, 09:51 AM
I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:

1. Paul Konerko was absolutely right to criticize Frank Thomas for showing up late yesterday. That kind of behavior is not only inappropriate, but also irresponsible. Thomas has been in the Major Leagues for more than a decade. He should know better than to do something like that. I suppose he may be better off if he were to let us know where he was before the game. If he was, say, arranging to meet with Hriniak, then that would qualify as a legitimate reason. Otherwise, he shouldn't be complaining about getting benched when he has been struggling. Even an MVP is not immune to benchings, fines, etc. Frank needs to understand this and learn to deal with it. He is acting like a complete wimp. Grow up, Frank.

I'm really impressed with the way Konerko has stepped up as a leader. He's one of the few players on this team who actually has a set of testicles.

2. Having said that, I am sick and tired of the anti-Thomas propaganda that has been circulating in the Chcago and national media. It's sickening the way people treat this man. Yes, he has done several things wrong, but so have many others, and none of them are ripped to shreads the way he is time and time again. Latrell Sprewell tried to strangle his coach, and nobody seems to bring that up anymore. After he helped get the Knicks to the '99 Finals, everyone conveniently forgot about his past.

3. I am also tired of the way people on this board have treated Frank. Some of you have said the most hateful things about someone who is without question the greatest player in the history of this franchise. What really bothers me is this: when Frank starts hitting for average again, you will deny ever ripping him and calling for his head on a silver platter. If I haven't made myself clear, I don't like front-runners. They have no place in professional sports, nor should they. It's becoming more apparent that there is no longer any loyalty associated with following a particular team.

4. I am tired of Jerry Manuel's poor decision making. The man doesn't have a clue what he's doing anymore. He says that Frank isn't helping the team, yet he sends Ritchie and Clayton out there and honestly believes they're going to win the game for the Sox. At least Frank has posted good power numbers (14 HR, 55 RBI). Ritchie can't even hit his spots. Yesterday, Alomar set up outside during Milton Bradley's at bat, and Ritchie missed BADLY. That is why Bradley hit the grand slam.

Furthermore, Manuel should have told Frank he wasn't going to play at all this weekend. Maybe that would have prevented this explosion from occuring yesterday. Thanks for nothing, Jerry.

Manuel needs to learn to stand up to his players. When Frank starts bitching and moaning, it's Manuel's job to go to him and set him straight. Instead of doing this, Manuel sits in his office and bad-mouths Frank, giving Jay Mariotti all the material he needs to slam Thomas and the White Sox once again.

5. When Konerko made his remarks about Thomas, a number of other players crawled out of the woodwork. Jose Valentin started running his mouth and trashing Frank. Now, I realize Jose is frustrated, but he doesn't have any room to talk. He hasn't done a damn thing all year. He's been horrible at the plate and even worse in the field. He's so bad that Manuel has resorted to using Graffanino every single day, which will ruin him by the time the end of the year rolls around.

I really hate it when one person says something, and others start spouting off. Valentin has done this serveral times. When Thomas walked out of Spring Training, Valentin started criticizing him. Then, when Wells did the same thing two months later, Valentin was right there to back him up. But when Wells was traded, Valentin was one of many who said he wasn't sorry to see him go. Jose, for goodness sakes, pick a side and say there. Stop "talking out both sides of your mouth."

6. Jay Mariotti is a dumbass. He says Thomas hasn't been a superstar since 1998, yet Thomas posted the best numbers of his career in 2000. Jay, you do know how to count, don't you? Ughh! This man needs to be fired. He's the worst writer this side of Dan LeBatard of the Miami Herald.

Mariotti was waiting for something like this. Anything to take the spotlight off of Sammy Steroids and the Chicago Gummy Bears. I'm so sick of this bull****. ARRRGGHHH!

7. I mentioned the steroids. That brings me to my next point. At least when Frank Thomas hits a homerun, he actually does that. It's completely his doing. In Sosa's case, I'd say 20-25 of his homers in any given season since 1998 are the result of steriod use. Without them, he never would have challenged Mark McGwire, who used androstinedione (SP?) himself.

kevingrt
07-08-2002, 10:19 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:

1. Paul Konerko was absolutely right to criticize Frank Thomas for showing up late yesterday. That kind of behavior is not only inappropriate, but also irresponsible. Thomas has been in the Major Leagues for more than a decade. He should know better than to do something like that. I suppose he may be better off if he were to let us know where he was before the game. If he was, say, arranging to meet with Hriniak, then that would qualify as a legitimate reason. Otherwise, he shouldn't be complaining about getting benched when he has been struggling. Even an MVP is not immune to benchings, fines, etc. Frank needs to understand this and learn to deal with it. He is acting like a complete wimp. Grow up, Frank.

I'm really impressed with the way Konerko has stepped up as a leader. He's one of the few players on this team who actually has a set of testicles.

2. Having said that, I am sick and tired of the anti-Thomas propaganda that has been circulating in the Chcago and national media. It's sickening the way people treat this man. Yes, he has done several things wrong, but so have many others, and none of them are ripped to shreads the way he is time and time again. Latrell Sprewell tried to strangle his coach, and nobody seems to bring that up anymore. After he helped get the Knicks to the '99 Finals, everyone conveniently forgot about his past.

3. I am also tired of the way people on this board have treated Frank. Some of you have said the most hateful things about someone who is without question the greatest player in the history of this franchise. What really bothers me is this: when Frank starts hitting for average again, you will deny ever ripping him and calling for his head on a silver platter. If I haven't made myself clear, I don't like front-runners. They have no place in professional sports, nor should they. It's becoming more apparent that there is no longer any loyalty associated with following a particular team.

4. I am tired of Jerry Manuel's poor decision making. The man doesn't have a clue what he's doing anymore. He says that Frank isn't helping the team, yet he sends Ritchie and Clayton out there and honestly believes they're going to win the game for the Sox. At least Frank has posted good power numbers (14 HR, 55 RBI). Ritchie can't even hit his spots. Yesterday, Alomar set up outside during Milton Bradley's at bat, and Ritchie missed BADLY. That is why Bradley hit the grand slam.

Furthermore, Manuel should have told Frank he wasn't going to play at all this weekend. Maybe that would have prevented this explosion from occuring yesterday. Thanks for nothing, Jerry.

Manuel needs to learn to stand up to his players. When Frank starts bitching and moaning, it's Manuel's job to go to him and set him straight. Instead of doing this, Manuel sits in his office and bad-mouths Frank, giving Jay Mariotti all the material he needs to slam Thomas and the White Sox once again.

5. When Konerko made his remarks about Thomas, a number of other players crawled out of the woodwork. Jose Valentin started running his mouth and trashing Frank. Now, I realize Jose is frustrated, but he doesn't have any room to talk. He hasn't done a damn thing all year. He's been horrible at the plate and even worse in the field. He's so bad that Manuel has resorted to using Graffanino every single day, which will ruin him by the time the end of the year rolls around.

I really hate it when one person says something, and others start spouting off. Valentin has done this serveral times. When Thomas walked out of Spring Training, Valentin started criticizing him. Then, when Wells did the same thing two months later, Valentin was right there to back him up. But when Wells was traded, Valentin was one of many who said he wasn't sorry to see him go. Jose, for goodness sakes, pick a side and say there. Stop "talking out both sides of your mouth."

6. Jay Mariotti is a dumbass. He says Thomas hasn't been a superstar since 1998, yet Thomas posted the best numbers of his career in 2000. Jay, you do know how to count, don't you? Ughh! This man needs to be fired. He's the worst writer this side of Dan LeBatard of the Miami Herald.

Mariotti was waiting for something like this. Anything to take the spotlight off of Sammy Steroids and the Chicago Gummy Bears. I'm so sick of this bull****. ARRRGGHHH!

7. I mentioned the steroids. That brings me to my next point. At least when Frank Thomas hits a homerun, he actually does that. It's completely his doing. In Sosa's case, I'd say 20-25 of his homers in any given season since 1998 are the result of steriod use. Without them, he never would have challenged Mark McGwire, who used androstinedione (SP?) himself.

I second those thoughts... And does Mariotti have any place in the sports world besides here in Chicago, I don't think so. Get the guy back from San Fran that used to work for the Trib, forgot his name though...

Tragg
07-08-2002, 10:23 AM
I third those thoughts.

Kilroy
07-08-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I'm really impressed with the way Konerko has stepped up as a leader. He's one of the few players on this team who actually has a set of testicles.

I agree that the team needs leaders, but leaders need to be direct. If they have something to say, then they should say it or shut up. Take this quote:

Paul Konerko
If we lose a game, it's not because Frank wasn't sitting on the bench," Konerko said. "That kind of gets blown out of proportion sometimes. But this is a team game. I know Jim Thome didn't play the first two games of this series and he was on the bench every inning. Draw your own conclusions on that. That's just fact. I'm not trying to knock anybody.

Well, which is it Paulie? Do you have a problem with Thomas not being on the bench or not?? Is it a big deal or not?? I don't think anyone can definitively tell what he has to say about that from this comment.

Viva Magglio
07-08-2002, 10:32 AM
I agree with everything except the Frank points. He has become a cancer in the clubhouse. It is clear that Frank is more interested in Frank than the welfare of the team. He is not the sole reason why we are losing by a longshot, but the sooner the Sox clubhouse (the real one, not this message board) are free of his antics, the better.

ma-gaga
07-08-2002, 10:34 AM
Latrell Sprewell tried to strangle his coach, and nobody seems to bring that up anymore. After he helped get the Knicks to the '99 Finals, everyone conveniently forgot about his past.

Great post, the only thing that I'd argue with you on is this. Nobody has forgetten about Spreewell. Spreewell's incident is easily much more hideous than anything that Thomas has ever done, but Spreewell held a press-confrence afterwards and expressed a sincere apology. More telling, he did not read a prepared statement put together by his agent. Frank Thomas continues to open his mouth and trash his manager, gm, owner and teammates. All that it would take is for him to say (and be sincere) that he'd be willing to do anything for the team including benching. Maybe the media is pushing him to get a quote, but he's being a dip-snot to give them one.

This is a team sport. It's pretty obvious that Frank feels as if the organization or baseball 'owes' him something. He doesn't show the love of baseball that people want from their heros. I don't think we're asking for Sosa-ess kissing up, but good hard-nosed fun.

I think it would help out Franks' rep to simply stick a bubble gum bubble on Mag's cap one day. Or whip cream Clayton's jock. Literally.

Procol Harum
07-08-2002, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by ˇViva Mágglio!
I agree with everything except the Frank points. He has become a cancer in the clubhouse. It is clear that Frank is more interested in Frank than the welfare of the team. He is not the sole reason why we are losing by a longshot, but the sooner the Sox clubhouse (the real one, not this message board) are free of his antics, the better.

I've come to the same conclusion. While I agree with the other posters about the way that Frank is being hosed by the media as opposed to Sham-me, it doesn't take away from the fact that FT is becoming yet another big problem for this team. I wish it could have been different--the way he recovered from his difficulties in '98 and '99 and the spring training confrontation with JM in 2000 it looked like he had really grown as a person and a professional (though the fact that he had shaved off some of his earlier, uh, growth, helped a great deal in 2000, too). But even before his injury last year it seemed like "Bad Frank" had returned.

In an ideal world, Frank Thomas would have been a career player for the Sox, shattering all their hitting records with his ticket punched for Cooperstown. The latter is still a likelihood, on the strength of his first 8 seasons and 2000, but I don't see much more good for him here in Chicago. Given his mental worldview, if his career revives it will probably take a change of scenery for it to happen. The only other alternative would be to cleanse the Sox franchise with new mangement with a new attitude--and that ain't gonna happen. So, all things considered, I'm afraid our only bet for some sort of a resolution would be to test the trade waters and see what we might get for Frank--a risky business, I agree, given who's at the switch in the General Manager's office.

:KW

"Hi, Hendry, is that you? Yeah, I can give you Frank for Jeff Fassero and Todd Hundley--that'll be swell!"

rmusacch
07-08-2002, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:

1. Paul Konerko was absolutely right to criticize Frank Thomas for showing up late yesterday. That kind of behavior is not only inappropriate, but also irresponsible. Thomas has been in the Major Leagues for more than a decade. He should know better than to do something like that. I suppose he may be better off if he were to let us know where he was before the game. If he was, say, arranging to meet with Hriniak, then that would qualify as a legitimate reason. Otherwise, he shouldn't be complaining about getting benched when he has been struggling. Even an MVP is not immune to benchings, fines, etc. Frank needs to understand this and learn to deal with it. He is acting like a complete wimp. Grow up, Frank.

Konerko went about it all wrong. He should have not done it in the media. He should have done it behind close doors face to face with Frank.

oldcomiskey
07-08-2002, 11:22 AM
I dont agree with a few things

number 1 is that you people all agree the press makes things up---how do you know Manuel is trashing Frank----
2. all you Thomas bashers can go to the urinal and kiss sammys cajones all you want-----because those same people will be singing his praises later-----youre not welcome here because you are not Sox fans---go to the cubs board if you have to spout trib garbage

LongDistanceFan
07-08-2002, 11:30 AM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:

. i do not have time right now to make a comment except for this....... i do not agree with some your statement......... show me the link of where jose went off spouting about frank

Procol Harum
07-08-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey
I2. all you Thomas bashers can go to the urinal and kiss sammys cajones all you want-----because those same people will be singing his praises later-----youre not welcome here because you are not Sox fans---go to the cubs board if you have to spout trib garbage

Shhhhhh! It's the voice of reason!

idseer
07-08-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Kilroy


Quote:
Paul Konerko
If we lose a game, it's not because Frank wasn't sitting on the bench," Konerko said. "That kind of gets blown out of proportion sometimes. But this is a team game. I know Jim Thome didn't play the first two games of this series and he was on the bench every inning. Draw your own conclusions on that. That's just fact. I'm not trying to knock anybody.




Well, which is it Paulie? Do you have a problem with Thomas not being on the bench or not?? Is it a big deal or not?? I don't think anyone can definitively tell what he has to say about that from this comment.

i don't see any two-sidedness here. he's clearly saying thomas not being on the bench probably didn't cause a loss ... but sitting there cheering on your teammates is important to team chemistry, and that's where thomas should have been.

FarmerAndy
07-08-2002, 12:44 PM
The whole argument about Frank is old. He's never been a leader and he's always opened his mouth and said the wrong things. This is nothing new and we should just expect it from him, it's how he's always been.

With that said, he is on pace for around 30 HR's and 100+ RBI. Although, his average has dropped a ton. He should be hitting in the 6 or 7 spot until he starts hitting the ball better. He can still provide some run production at the back half of the order, but with his average as low as it is, he has no business batting in the #3 spot.

It is the manager's job to evaluate what he is getting out of certain players, and plug them into the best possible role. Frank isn't going to come out of this funk by sitting on the bench. He should be toward the back of the order.

Watch Jerry Manuel though, he benches Frank for 3 games, and now he'll turn around and put him back in the 3 spot.

alohafri
07-08-2002, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:



4. I am tired of Jerry Manuel's poor decision making. The man doesn't have a clue what he's doing anymore. He says that Frank isn't helping the team, yet he sends Ritchie and Clayton out there and honestly believes they're going to win the game for the Sox. At least Frank has posted good power numbers (14 HR, 55 RBI). Ritchie can't even hit his spots. Yesterday, Alomar set up outside during Milton Bradley's at bat, and Ritchie missed BADLY. That is why Bradley hit the grand slam.

Furthermore, Manuel should have told Frank he wasn't going to play at all this weekend. Maybe that would have prevented this explosion from occuring yesterday. Thanks for nothing, Jerry.

Manuel needs to learn to stand up to his players. When Frank starts bitching and moaning, it's Manuel's job to go to him and set him straight. Instead of doing this, Manuel sits in his office and bad-mouths Frank, giving Jay Mariotti all the material he needs to slam Thomas and the White Sox once again.



There lies much of the problem. Jerry Manuel has lost control of this team. I am no apologist for Frank Thomas by any means, but he really seems to have it in for him. Sure, bench Frank, he isn't producing and should be benched. In fact, Manuel should have been up front with him. "Frank, I am giving you the next three days to get your head together. I don't want you in the ball park at all. Go play golf, go fishing, get drunk, whatever. But get away from the game for a bit and get yourself ready for the second half."

Keep sending Todd Ritchie out there to get hammered every five days. I thought he was being touted as an "innings eater." Sure, three innings a game. Here is another head case that needs to stay home and read a Norman Vincent Peale book!

Procol Harum
07-08-2002, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by FarmerAndy

With that said, he is on pace for around 30 HR's and 100+ RBI. Although, his average has dropped a ton. He should be hitting in the 6 or 7 spot until he starts hitting the ball better. He can still provide some run production at the back half of the order, but with his average as low as it is, he has no business batting in the #3 spot.
Watch Jerry Manuel though, he benches Frank for 3 games, and now he'll turn around and put him back in the 3 spot.

That's part of our whole problem, though--in order to help Frank get his act together we need someone who's got a little better handle on dealing with these players. And it's looking pretty clear that JM has just about lost whatever it was he had going for him on that score. Frank's numbers are--by comparison to anyone else's standards--going to be hard to replace. But the Frank Question is about other issues than raw numbers.

But, it kinda reminds you of the old story about '50s slugger Ralph Kiner going in to Pittsburgh management after hitting 50+ homers and demanding a big pay raise. They told him to take their offer or leave it; their rationale: "We finished in last place with you, and we can finish there without you." We're fast getting to the same scenario--the Sox can be mediocre with Frank or mediocre without him. It's plain that the discussion has moved from how to win this year to how to salvage something from this mess to redeem the best possible future for the team. Again, however--our fate is in the wrong hands...

:KW

"I am the captain of the ship named destiny!"

:reinsy

"And I'm the Secrerary of the Navy!"

doublem23
07-08-2002, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by oldcomiskey

2. all you Thomas bashers can go to the urinal and kiss sammys cajones all you want-----because those same people will be singing his praises later-----youre not welcome here because you are not Sox fans---go to the cubs board if you have to spout trib garbage

THANK YOU, oldcomiskey.

About time someone said that.

wassagstdu
07-08-2002, 01:54 PM
...someone who is without question the greatest player in the history of this franchise...
Make that "...arguably the greatest hitter in the history of the franchise..."

DVG
07-08-2002, 04:07 PM
The Frank-bashing has made the front page of the Trib sports
section. Big surprise, eh? Sammelah says F*** my teammates
and no one bats an eye. The media is blowing it all out of pro-
portion. I only wish guys like RK or oldcomiskey were prominent
columnists in the papers, so they could more effectively counter
all the garbage that is spewing out. Then again, I assume that
they aren't because they are far too talented to waste their
time in a bottom-feeder profession turning out crap and ruining
people's lives like most lying scumwad members of the media.

LongDistanceFan
07-08-2002, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by RKMeibalane
[B]I have the following to say regarding the events of this weekend:


2. Having said that, I am sick and tired of the anti-Thomas propaganda that has been circulating in the Chcago and national media. It's sickening the way people treat this man. Yes, he has done several things wrong, but so have many others, and none of them are ripped to shreads the way he is time and time again. Latrell Sprewell tried to strangle his coach, and nobody seems to bring that up anymore. After he helped get the Knicks to the '99 Finals, everyone conveniently forgot about his past.

i know this is a total biased site for the whitesox, however that doesn't mean we have to be blind to some of the players short comings.



5. When Konerko made his remarks about Thomas, a number of other players crawled out of the woodwork. Jose Valentin started running his mouth and trashing Frank. Now, I realize Jose is frustrated, but he doesn't have any room to talk. He hasn't done a damn thing all year. He's been horrible at the plate and even worse in the field. He's so bad that Manuel has resorted to using Graffanino every single day, which will ruin him by the time the end of the year rolls around.

if there is an end, the way the strike talk is happening.



I really hate it when one person says something, and others start spouting off. Valentin has done this serveral times. When Thomas walked out of Spring Training, Valentin started criticizing him. Then, when Wells did the same thing two months later, Valentin was right there to back him up. But when Wells was traded, Valentin was one of many who said he wasn't sorry to see him go. Jose, for goodness sakes, pick a side and say there. Stop "talking out both sides of your mouth."

again where is the link to that?

i will say this, when i first read your post, i didn't really read it, i mistook some of your points the wrong way, so here is the other minor point i don't agree with?

FanOf14
07-08-2002, 08:40 PM
It was either in the Trib or SunTimes about Jose. I don't remember the exact quote, but I think the gist of Jose and T> Graff's comments were regurgitation of PK's "team player" comment. I read both the rags while waiting at the dealership...what a joke of a service department - here I come better business bureau.

LongDistanceFan
07-08-2002, 10:16 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
It was either in the Trib or SunTimes about Jose. I don't remember the exact quote, but I think the gist of Jose and T> Graff's comments were regurgitation of PK's "team player" comment. I read both the rags while waiting at the dealership...what a joke of a service department - here I come better business bureau. until i see the comment, i need to refrain from saying anything.......... unless someone can help. i don't remember reading anything like that.

FanOf14
07-08-2002, 10:39 PM
TG's Comment and link:

And this from utility infielder Tony Graffanino after the game: "I'm not going to stand here and knock him, but he does need to think about us as a whole. If everybody started bailing on things, where would we be?"

TG's Comments' link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-020708morrissey.column?coll=cs%2Dwhitesox%2Dheadli nes)

JV's Comment and link:

While not specifically naming Thomas, Valentin said the team has to stay away from "negative" comments if it wants to stick together.

"It's easy to say stuff and not prove it," Valentin said of Thomas' complaints about his benching. "In baseball, you're always going to get a chance. But you better keep your mouth shut until you can go out and prove it."

Jose's Comments' Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-020707soxbreak.story?coll=cs%2Dwhitesox%2Dheadline s)

LongDistanceFan
07-08-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by FanOf14
TG's Comment and link:

And this from utility infielder Tony Graffanino after the game: "I'm not going to stand here and knock him, but he does need to think about us as a whole. If everybody started bailing on things, where would we be?"

TG's Comments' link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-020708morrissey.column?coll=cs%2Dwhitesox%2Dheadli nes)

JV's Comment and link:

While not specifically naming Thomas, Valentin said the team has to stay away from "negative" comments if it wants to stick together.

"It's easy to say stuff and not prove it," Valentin said of Thomas' complaints about his benching. "In baseball, you're always going to get a chance. But you better keep your mouth shut until you can go out and prove it."

Jose's Comments' Link (http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/cs-020707soxbreak.story?coll=cs%2Dwhitesox%2Dheadline s) wow those are scathing remarks and they really pounce on him, again JM has proven today about how the quotes have been used to make more of the story than that was said..........