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View Full Version : Is it Time for Viciedo to Replace Pierre in the Outfield?


TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 08:58 AM
I think enough is enough. If Viciedo can hit like he did last summer + play the defense he showed before his injury in spring training- he'd be a major upgrade in left field. I wouldn't let the "pure lead off hitter" issue get in the way- slot either Rios or Ramirez in the lead off spot.

If Pierre is going to hit in the .260's while dropping at least one catchable fly ball each week- he's not worth it.

asindc
05-12-2011, 09:46 AM
The poll doesn't count unless you have a 'churros' option.

kittle42
05-12-2011, 09:47 AM
It's time to replace Pierre, but not with Viciedo.

russ99
05-12-2011, 09:56 AM
I think enough is enough. If Viciedo can hit like he did last summer + play the defense he showed before his injury in spring training- he'd be a major upgrade in left field. I wouldn't let the "pure lead off hitter" issue get in the way- slot either Rios or Ramirez in the lead off spot.

If Pierre is going to hit in the .260's while dropping at least one catchable fly ball each week- he's not worth it.

Who else on our team or in the system is even in position to jump at the wall and make that "catchable" fly ball last night?

Rios and his .203/.270 numbers is such a huge upgrade at leadoff.

kittle42
05-12-2011, 10:25 AM
Given your continued stance on the players now, and your sig, and the Ozzie stuff - is there anyone that has ever worn a Sox uniform for an extended period of time that you *didn't* like?

TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 10:48 AM
Who else on our team or in the system is even in position to jump at the wall and make that "catchable" fly ball last night?

Rios and his .203/.270 numbers is such a huge upgrade at leadoff.

Just about any outfielder at AA/AAA can make that catch- it was not as difficult as Pierre made it look- the ball clanging off his glove when he didn't even leave his feet was evidence of that.

I see no evidence that Pierre is any kind of "sparkplug" at the top of the line up- without that he's of very little value.

Bobby Thigpen
05-12-2011, 10:50 AM
Who else on our team or in the system is even in position to jump at the wall and make that "catchable" fly ball last night?

Rios and his .203/.270 numbers is such a huge upgrade at leadoff.
You could also put this in your sig-
05- Sox win WS in spite of OG and KW

Hitmen77
05-12-2011, 10:52 AM
Given your continued stance on the players now, and your sig, and the Ozzie stuff - is there anyone that has ever worn a Sox uniform for an extended period of time that you *didn't* like?

As long as you never question Ozzie's effectiveness, moves, or results as a manager, you should be safe from his "whining" label.

I can't believe fans are unhappy with this team digging itself into a 10 game hole. Only stupid Sox fans would complain about that.

asindc
05-12-2011, 10:54 AM
You could also put this in your sig-
05- Sox win WS in spite of OG and KW

He could, but that would be inaccurate.

russ99
05-12-2011, 11:10 AM
Given your continued stance on the players now, and your sig, and the Ozzie stuff - is there anyone that has ever worn a Sox uniform for an extended period of time that you *didn't* like?

Many players. On this roster: Pena and Ohman. Last year's roster: Jones, Manny, Nix, Flowers, Jenks, Marquez, Wiliams. And I'm not happy with this team's performance, but feeling better after two series wins.

My sig is a joking response to a similar one bashing KW and Ozzie for every year since 2005. There should be a middle ground, IMO. But this isn't about me.

Back to Pierre: what would be acceptable performance from him based on what he brings to the table?

Or is my assumption that of what Pierre brings to the table clashes with the philosophy of those who want the Sox to strictly be a "basherball" team?

eriqjaffe
05-12-2011, 11:14 AM
Just about any outfielder at AA/AAA can make that catch- it was not as difficult as Pierre made it look- the ball clanging off his glove when he didn't even leave his feet was evidence of that.Milton Bradley is available.

miker
05-12-2011, 11:15 AM
I'm just surprised nobody's used the term "VORP" yet...

kittle42
05-12-2011, 11:17 AM
Back to Pierre: what would be acceptable performance from him based on what he brings to the table?

Or is my assumption that of what Pierre brings to the table clashes with the philosophy of those who want the Sox to strictly be a "basherball" team?

On the latter, I think you are, to a great extent, creating a class of people who do not exist. Isn't the grand majority of the time around here spent complaining about guys who swing for the fences constantly and pop up all the time? How much in the past 5 years have we read about baseclogging and the like? I think you are actually arguing against nobody here.

On Pierre, he was off to a wretched start hitting last year, as well, but was 9/12 in SB in April and 10/1 in May, and played a surprisingly adequate LF. Again, if he is not going to hit near .280-.300, he has to AT LEAST steal bases at a high percentage and play average defense to rise to the level of acceptable performance. So yes, he started slow last season, but made up for it by still using his one real skill - speed - to the benefit of the team. This season? Not so much - in fact, hardly at all.

doublem23
05-12-2011, 11:22 AM
Or is my assumption that of what Pierre brings to the table clashes with the philosophy of those who want the Sox to strictly be a "basherball" team?

Pierre clashes with my philosophy of the Sox having good baseball players.

TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 11:42 AM
Back to Pierre: what would be acceptable performance from him based on what he brings to the table?

Or is my assumption that of what Pierre brings to the table clashes with the philosophy of those who want the Sox to strictly be a "basherball" team?

I would prefer we have a lead off hitter who performs at a similar level as Pods did in 2005 or Pierre did over stretches of last year. I'd take that over basherball any day- it sets you up to get early leads and to win 1-run games by the ability to manufacture a run late in the game.

But Pierre is hitting in the .240's, with a 42% success rate stealing bases, and is currently on pace to make ~15-20 errors this year in LF with one of the weakest throwing arms in baseball. NONE of this helps us on offense or defense or winning close games.

I could accept the low batting average (he's historically stronger in the 2nd half)- but the stolen base success rate and 2 months of some of the worst outfield defense since Ralph Garr and Ron LeFlore are real cause for alarm.

With Viciedo we get an upgrade on defense (based on spring training reports), throwing, hittting, hitting for power- the only thing we lose is stolen bases. Alexei has the same OBP as Pierre- so I'd slot him in the lead off spot- not ideal- but this line up could really produce some runs.

miker
05-12-2011, 11:49 AM
2 months of some of the worst outfield defense since Ralph Garr and Ron LeFlore are real cause for alarm

Now THAT is a scathing indictment.

There never is a guarantee that any move you make will work...sometime the change just gives you a new problem.

I know this an unpopular stance in our polarized little world here, but I'm really starting to feel that replacing Juan in left is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

DirtySox
05-12-2011, 12:02 PM
With Viciedo we get an upgrade on defense (based on spring training reports), throwing, hittting, hitting for power- the only thing we lose is stolen bases. Alexei has the same OBP as Pierre- so I'd slot him in the lead off spot- not ideal- but this line up could really produce some runs.

You won't be getting a defensive upgrade in Dayan. He has a decent arm but as KG stated yesterday, the range of a lawn ornament. At best his D and Juan's would be a wash. His offense would very much be an upgrade though which is why I'd be fine with him being called up. It's also worth noting that Viciedo is out of options.

TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 12:12 PM
You won't be getting a defensive upgrade in Dayan. He has a decent arm but as KG stated yesterday, the range of a lawn ornament. At best his D and Juan's would be a wash. His offense would very much be an upgrade though which is why I'd be fine with him being called up. It's also worth noting that Viciedo is out of options.

I'm only going on reports coming out of spring training before he was hurt- but they were raving about his defense and that he had lost weight and was much more mobile than last year. Reports were that he had a "plus" arm vs. decent- again, I haven't seen him play outfield- just what I was hearing.

Bobby Thigpen
05-12-2011, 12:17 PM
He could, but that would be inaccurate.
Guess I should've used teal, but thought it was obvious.

DirtySox
05-12-2011, 01:31 PM
I'm only going on reports coming out of spring training before he was hurt- but they were raving about his defense and that he had lost weight and was much more mobile than last year. Reports were that he had a "plus" arm vs. decent- again, I haven't seen him play outfield- just what I was hearing.

And I'm quoting a recent scouting report consensus. It's pretty much a given that Dayan is never going to be an asset defensively, no matter where he plays. This is fine as long he can provide offensive value, which he can.

rcescato
05-12-2011, 02:02 PM
Who else on our team or in the system is even in position to jump at the wall and make that "catchable" fly ball last night?

Rios and his .203/.270 numbers is such a huge upgrade at leadoff.
Jordan Danks or Jarred Mitchell are our outfielders of the future

Noneck
05-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Just about any outfielder at AA/AAA can make that catch- it was not as difficult as Pierre made it look- the ball clanging off his glove when he didn't even leave his feet was evidence of that.



I agree but at least it didnt clunk off his noodle.

DirtySox
05-12-2011, 02:06 PM
Jordan Danks or Jarred Mitchell are our outfielders of the future

Despite Jordan Danks recent power surge, his K-rate of 36% isn't going to allow him a major league future unless dropped significantly. Jared Mitchell is even further away in High-A, toeing the Mendoza line and leading all minor leaguers at every minor league level in strikeouts at a 40% rate. Neither of these players chances are very good at this point.

balke
05-12-2011, 02:07 PM
Dayan can replace Morel for offense occasionally if the Sox are willing. Morel is likely to hit the worst over a total season. Ozzie could at least relieve Brent later in games if the offense needs a shot in the arm.

With that you could replace pierre out in left too occasionally.

Let's not get too carried away with praising The Tank's bat though. If he bats .300 his OBP is going to be .302. Hot months are coming though - Sox could use some contagious hitting.

kittle42
05-12-2011, 02:08 PM
Jordan Danks or Jarred Mitchell are our outfielders of the future

Why does a certain group of people seem to think Jordan Danks has any future at all in the major leagues? Is it just name recognition because his name is Danks? Because it certainly can't be that anyone the last few years has ever said he is capable of being any more than a benchwarmer in the majors, if that. Most, if not all, systems that rank minor league talent have Danks no higher than the 15th best prospect in the SOX organization, and also acknowledge that the organization is one of the worst overall.

In short, he was considered a pretty good prospect 3 years ago, but a few seasons of mediocre minor league play will pretty much punch your ticket out of major league hopes.

asindc
05-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Guess I should've used teal, but thought it was obvious.

After I posted it, I thought you might have been implying teal. Sadly though, some around here actually believe that.

DirtySox
05-12-2011, 02:11 PM
Why does a certain group of people seem to think Jordan Danks has any future at all in the major leagues? Is it just name recognition because his name is Danks? Because it certainly can't be that anyone the last few years has ever said he is capable of being any more than a benchwarmer in the majors, if that. Most, if not all, systems that rank minor league talent have Danks no higher than the 15th best prospect in the SOX organization, and also acknowledge that the organization is one of the worst overall.

In short, he was considered a pretty good prospect 3 years ago, but a few seasons of mediocre minor league play will pretty much punch your ticket out of major league hopes.

I blame Hawk and his tongue bathing of any marginal White Sox prospect he hears about. The glaring deficiencies of many of these players jump out at anyone who does a tiny bit of research.

TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 02:11 PM
I agree but at least it didnt clunk off his noodle.

+1 for Juan vs. the legacy of Ron LeFlore. :cool:

Gavin
05-12-2011, 02:27 PM
No, Juan Pierre is the only SB threat on my last place fantasy baseball team.

Nellie_Fox
05-12-2011, 02:30 PM
Pierre is just not bringing much of anything to the game right now. I don't know if this is the beginning of the end for him, but I have to think that putting Lillibridge in, either in left, or in right with TCQ moving to left, has got to be an improvement.

guillensdisciple
05-12-2011, 02:46 PM
I am with the fire everyone crowd as of now but I do have a question: What happens if this team turns it around and makes it to the playoffs?

KMcMahon817
05-12-2011, 02:47 PM
I voted no, but not because we need a true lead off hitter. If Juan were Juan of last year, I am all about him. But the Juan that can't steal and can't catch shouldn't be playing everyday.

So, yes he should be replaced for the time being. But, no he should not be DFA'd or released. He still has some value to this ballclub, even if he continues to play as poorly as he currently is.

If Teahen ends up needing a trip to the DL, call up The Tank and put him in LF for a few games. I would love watching that. It'll be interested to see him play the OF, at the very least.

doublem23
05-12-2011, 02:49 PM
I am with the fire everyone crowd as of now but I do have a question: What happens if this team turns it around and makes it to the playoffs?

What does that have to do with Juan Pierre?

guillensdisciple
05-12-2011, 02:50 PM
What does that have to do with Juan Pierre?

Point taken. Juan Pierre should be taken off the roster and Dayan should play for the Sox.

kittle42
05-12-2011, 02:51 PM
Point taken. Juan Pierre should be taken off the roster and Dayan should play for the Sox.

Well, it would likely put the team in a better position to contend for this season.

doublem23
05-12-2011, 02:54 PM
Point taken. Juan Pierre should be taken off the roster and Dayan should play for the Sox.

I just don't understand what you're getting at, what happens if the Sox make the postseason, they make the postseason, but you have to figure Juan's gone in 2012 for Dayan, otherwise we pissed $10 million down the drain on his development.

Milw
05-12-2011, 03:39 PM
But Pierre is hitting in the .240's, with a 42% success rate stealing bases, and is currently on pace to make ~15-20 errors this year in LF with one of the weakest throwing arms in baseball. NONE of this helps us on offense or defense or winning close games.

This is a dramatic understatement, unless you are counting high school ball too. But I can't think of another professional baseball player I've ever seen at any level whose arm is even in the same ballpark of weakness. It's shockingly bad.

Even when he's stealing 50-60 bases a year, I bet his weak throwing arm results in the opposition taking that many extra bases on him. How many times have guys scored from second easily on base hits right at Pierre? Last night Hunter turned a standup double into a relatively easy triple. It happens seemingly every other game, and frankly, it's an embarrassment.

There is no way Viciedo would be a net downgrade. He would be lightyears better offensively, and defensively, being able to hold runners now and then would more than make up for his reduced range.

WhiffleBall
05-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Has anyone seen Viciedo play the outfield since he came off the DL? Does he look like he is ready to handle LF fulltime?

DirtySox
05-12-2011, 04:00 PM
Has anyone seen Viciedo play the outfield since he came off the DL? Does he look like he is ready to handle LF fulltime?

He has a good arm, but horrible range. The best I've seen his defense described since his return was "tolerable." Also, he has only played RF since the position change.

Daver
05-12-2011, 04:07 PM
So the idea is to replace a bad defensive player with one that is worse, on the small chance that he might provide a slight increase in offensive production?


Sounds Great!!

TomBradley72
05-12-2011, 04:13 PM
So the idea is to replace a bad defensive player with one that is worse, on the small chance that he might provide a slight increase in offensive production?


Sounds Great!!

He's not "worse"- less range but much better arm.

Slight increase in offense?

Last year Dayan had an .840 OPS vs. Pierre's OPS this year of .601- when Pierre is delivering a 48% success rate stealing along with a .248 batting average he's pretty much useless.

kittle42
05-12-2011, 04:29 PM
He's not "worse"- less range but much better arm.

Slight increase in offense?

Last year Dayan had an .840 OPS vs. Pierre's OPS this year of .601- when Pierre is delivering a 48% success rate stealing along with a .248 batting average he's pretty much useless.

Usually, I agree with Daver here, but he's off on this one. Viciedo is probably garbage out there defensively, but I'm guessing the love is more lateral than he's giving credit for.

wassagstdu
05-12-2011, 05:07 PM
Pods

kittle42
05-12-2011, 05:11 PM
Pods

One of those situations where I feel stupid for asking if teal is implied, yet concerned that it might actually not be.

Daver
05-12-2011, 05:29 PM
He's not "worse"- less range but much better arm.


We will agree to disagree, perhaps you missed it back in the day when Carlos Lee played left field by standing at the warning track so that nothing could go over his head unless it was out of the park.

Pierre will get to more than balls than he doesn't, and baseball is not an offensive sport, it never has been, yet people keep bringing out ideas to replace marginal defensive players with below average defensive players in a blind stab at offensive production.

How many walks does Viciedo have this year? Because that number will drop when he faces MLB pitching.


Reading some of these threads can prove to be amusing though.

Bobby Thigpen
05-12-2011, 05:42 PM
Sadly though, some around here actually believe that.
That's why I said it.

:cool:

russ99
05-12-2011, 09:59 PM
He's not "worse"- less range but much better arm.

Slight increase in offense?

Last year Dayan had an .840 OPS vs. Pierre's OPS this year of .601- when Pierre is delivering a 48% success rate stealing along with a .248 batting average he's pretty much useless.

Not this again. Please come back and compare them with OPS when Pierre hits 5 homers a season.

Last year Viciedo had 104 major league at-bats, looked overmatched at times and had only 2 walks with a OBP of .321.

Pierre hitting just .248 has a OBP of .325. And again, Viciedo will be going to get those crushed balls that Pierre drops (5 errors in 81 chances) at the fence.

Milw
05-12-2011, 10:25 PM
We will agree to disagree, perhaps you missed it back in the day when Carlos Lee played left field by standing at the warning track so that nothing could go over his head unless it was out of the park.

Pierre will get to more than balls than he doesn't, and baseball is not an offensive sport, it never has been, yet people keep bringing out ideas to replace marginal defensive players with below average defensive players in a blind stab at offensive production.

How many walks does Viciedo have this year? Because that number will drop when he faces MLB pitching.


Reading some of these threads can prove to be amusing though.
Pierre is not a marginal defensive player. He is an awful defensive player. He is also an awful offensive player, at least when he's not stealing a base at least every other game, which he's not.

Hell, put Lillibridge in there, Teahen even. I'm not downplaying the importance of having a strong defensive left fielder, but if we're going to put a black hole out there, he might as well be able to hit at least. Pierre brings pretty much nothing to the table at this point.

doublem23
05-12-2011, 10:45 PM
Pierre is not a marginal defensive player. He is an awful defensive player. He is also an awful offensive player, at least when he's not stealing a base at least every other game, which he's not.

Hell, put Lillibridge in there, Teahen even. I'm not downplaying the importance of having a strong defensive left fielder, but if we're going to put a black hole out there, he might as well be able to hit at least. Pierre brings pretty much nothing to the table at this point.

Quoted for truth.

Just out of curiosity, at what point in the year is it OK for the Sox to dump Pierre for Viciedo? If we're still effectively 10 games out at the start of June? 4th of July? Pierre's gone after this year. Viciedo's arguably our #1 prospect. Time to see what the kid can do. I just have to laugh at the suggestion he'll be a downgrade from Pierre either at the plate or the field. It's 2011, guys, not 2003.

dickallen15
05-13-2011, 07:30 AM
Not this again. Please come back and compare them with OPS when Pierre hits 5 homers a season.

Last year Viciedo had 104 major league at-bats, looked overmatched at times and had only 2 walks with a OBP of .321.

Pierre hitting just .248 has a OBP of .325. And again, Viciedo will be going to get those crushed balls that Pierre drops (5 errors in 81 chances) at the fence.


The OBP comparison is insignificant, and if you consider Pierre getting picked off a couple of times and the amount of times he was caught stealing and subtract that from actually being on base, Viciedo, even without walking blows him away. And if you're going to make the claim Pierre is a better offensive player because his OBP is .004 higher, you'd get laughed out of anywhere you were at. Viciedo may have "looked overmatched" at times, but he was a 20 year old rookie, and he still hit over .300 with an OPS over .800. Pierre looks overmatched a lot more than that. The Sox need all the defense they can get, but Pierre has been horrible so even if Viciedo is bad, at least he can throw a little bit. Its time for a change.

TomBradley72
05-13-2011, 07:41 AM
We will agree to disagree, perhaps you missed it back in the day when Carlos Lee played left field by standing at the warning track so that nothing could go over his head unless it was out of the park.

Pierre will get to more than balls than he doesn't, and baseball is not an offensive sport, it never has been, yet people keep bringing out ideas to replace marginal defensive players with below average defensive players in a blind stab at offensive production.

How many walks does Viciedo have this year? Because that number will drop when he faces MLB pitching.


Reading some of these threads can prove to be amusing though.

My biggest concern is not the low batting average- I'm almost certain he'll return to his norm of ~.270's- but when his success rate stealing bases drops from a career average of ~75% to ~45%, and he goes from making a few errors a year in the OF to a pace of 15+ errors (with almost 1/3rd of the season completed)- something seems really wrong- I've never seen prolonged "slumps" for baserunning or defense from a veteran like Pierre unless its the beginning of a decline due to age, etc.

Hope I'm wrong.

ohiosoxfan
05-13-2011, 08:19 AM
Just finished watching Charlotte play four games in Columbus and Dayan went 9 for 18 with 7 RBI, raising his OBP to .354 and BA to .313. You're right about his outfield defense, though. Rather short right field (318 ft) in Columbus which didn't make him cover a lot of ground. I know he played defense pretty well in spring training but he still looks big and slow in the OF. He is hot at the plate though, so it may be a good time to bring him up if Teahen is DLed.

On a side note, Jordan Danks hit 3 HR in the series and two were absolutely crushed, just jumped off his bat. Unfortunately, he had twice as many bad, weak at bats to go with those. If he could ever develop some consistency. . .

Flowers hit some balls hard, looked pretty average behind the plate.

On the pitching side of things, the only one who looked to be of any help would be Brian Bruney who got a couple of saves in the series and was throwing 96-97 regularly. (Note - Shane Lindsey, an Australian who was with Cleveland organization last year has this amazing line- 0-0, 0.00 ERA, 9.1 IP, 0 H, 11 BB, 10 K)

cards press box
05-13-2011, 08:54 AM
Oblique strains tend to linger so I expect the Sox to DLTeahen and call up Viciedo.

Chez
05-13-2011, 09:22 AM
Oblique strains tend to linger so I expect the Sox to DLTeahen and call up Viciedo.

Agree. And when Teahen is ready, send Morel down. Unless he's starting regularly (and Brent doesn't deserve to), Brent has no real role on the roster. Morel is not a valuable bench player.

JermaineDye05
05-13-2011, 12:38 PM
How about Lillibeast?

He can't be much worse in the field.

kittle42
05-13-2011, 12:44 PM
Not this again. Please come back and compare them with OPS when Pierre hits 5 homers a season.

Last year Viciedo had 104 major league at-bats, looked overmatched at times and had only 2 walks with a OBP of .321.

Pierre hitting just .248 has a OBP of .325. And again, Viciedo will be going to get those crushed balls that Pierre drops (5 errors in 81 chances) at the fence.

I don't even need stats to tell me how awful Pierre is offensively. Can't get a hit these days. Can no longer bunt effectively for hits, or really for much of anything. When he does get on base, as he has still been drawing walks, he does not steal even remotely effectively. I'd never want him up in any kind of RISP situation.

His skill, when he had it, was to slap his way on base at a pretty good rate, then run the bases fast and effectively, turning his walks and singles into doubles and triples. He seemingly cannot do that anymore. End of story.

PalehosePlanet
05-13-2011, 01:29 PM
Not this again. Please come back and compare them with OPS when Pierre hits 5 homers a season.

Last year Viciedo had 104 major league at-bats, looked overmatched at times and had only 2 walks with a OBP of .321.

Pierre hitting just .248 has a OBP of .325. And again, Viciedo will be going to get those crushed balls that Pierre drops (5 errors in 81 chances) at the fence.

But he's butchered more plays that did not count as errors. Any play where he has to go a long way, then drops, have been ruled hits. (Not to mention the singles that have turned into doubles because of his arm.)

The last game in Anaheim, where he waited for the ball to wrap around the wall and come to him, while the fastest player in the league is turning a routine double into a triple, is a good example of a play that does not show up in fielding percentage stats. (As well as the dropped ball for a triple that you claim was difficult, even though he was already playing medium-deep.)

The reason I say DFA him is because I don't see any team offering anything in return for him; not at over 3 million still due to him for the remainder of the year. And as far as keeping him as a bench player? Well, we all know that Ozzie loves him, so there's no way Juan would ever be a bench player on this team. If he's here, he's starting. That's why he needs to go, ASAP!

kittle42
05-13-2011, 02:00 PM
The reason I say DFA him is because I don't see any team offering anything in return for him; not at over 3 million still due to him for the remainder of the year. And as far as keeping him as a bench player? Well, we all know that Ozzie loves him, so there's no way Juan would ever be a bench player on this team. If he's here, he's starting. That's why he needs to go, ASAP!

The DFA crap around here, unless the player in question is really a complete waste of space like Tony Pena or some such journeyman junkbag, is unrealistic.

You keep Pierre around until/unless you can trade him, and that's all.

TomBradley72
05-13-2011, 02:32 PM
The DFA crap around here, unless the player in question is really a complete waste of space like Tony Pena or some such journeyman junkbag, is unrealistic.

You keep Pierre around until/unless you can trade him, and that's all.

Easier said than done- if he's not a starter- I'm not sure he's the best bench player- in some ways Lillibridge might be more valuable as a bench player.

PalehosePlanet
05-13-2011, 02:35 PM
The DFA crap around here, unless the player in question is really a complete waste of space like Tony Pena or some such journeyman junkbag, is unrealistic.

You keep Pierre around until/unless you can trade him, and that's all.

Well, I guess then we'll agree to disagree as I feel exactly the opposite. I think Pierre is a complete waste of space and is blocking our only prospect at this point. Zero trade value equals DFA; otherwise he starts for us all year long because of Ozzie.

On the other hand: Tony Pena still has good stuff and doesn't make much money, therefore, there would be a team willing to trade for him to see if their pitching coach can get the most out of him. It happens with relievers all the time. I would not DFA him.

kittle42
05-13-2011, 02:39 PM
Well, I guess then we'll agree to disagree as I feel exactly the opposite. I think Pierre is a complete waste of space and is blocking our only prospect at this point. Zero trade value equals DFA; otherwise he starts for us all year long because of Ozzie.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see him gone tomorrow. I just said it's unrealistic, not wrong.

On the other hand: Tony Pena still has good stuff and doesn't make much money, therefore, there would be a team willing to trade for him to see if their pitching coach can get the most out of him. It happens with relievers all the time. I would not DFA him.

Here's one on which we will agree to disagree. Yeah, if he was waived, would someone claim him? Probably. But a trade? You'd maybe receive some "future considerations."

wassagstdu
05-13-2011, 04:58 PM
One of those situations where I feel stupid for asking if teal is implied, yet concerned that it might actually not be.

One of those situations where I feel stupid for asking if teal is implied, yet concerned that it might actually not be.

kittle42
05-13-2011, 05:18 PM
One of those situations where I feel stupid for asking if teal is implied, yet concerned that it might actually not be.

Hmm..."I know you are but what am I?" :tongue:

voodoochile
05-14-2011, 10:55 AM
If the Sox actually do this, to me the obvious choice to lead off is Rios.

TomBradley72
05-14-2011, 11:47 AM
Maybe it wouldn't hold up for the entire season- but from now to the All Star break I think this might work-
Vizquel- 3B (.350 OBP)
Ramirez- SS
Dunn- DH
Konerko- 1B
Quentin- RF
Rios- CF
AJ- C
Viciedo- LF
Beckham- 2B
When Vizquel needs a rest- use Lillibridge at 3rd and have him lead off (1-2X/week max- he can't be any worse than Morel/Teahen as the other alternatives)

DickAllen72
05-14-2011, 11:52 AM
Maybe it wouldn't hold up for the entire season- but from now to the All Star break I think this might work-
Vizquel- 3B (.350 OBP)
Ramirez- SS
Dunn- DH
Konerko- 1B
Quentin- RF
Rios- CF
AJ- C
Viciedo- LF
Beckham- 2B
When Vizquel needs a rest- use Lillibridge at 3rd and have him lead off (1-2X/week max- he can't be any worse than Morel/Teahen as the other alternatives)
I'd start Vizquel at 2B and let him lead off with Viciedo as the starting LFer. If Morel continues to struggle, then Omar can move to 3B and let Beckham play 2B.

jwmann2
05-15-2011, 01:16 PM
Viciedo is expected to be called up tommorow from Charlotte. The news will not come on Sunday for some reason.

sox1970
05-15-2011, 01:27 PM
Viciedo is expected to be called up tommorow from Charlotte. The news will not come on Sunday for some reason.

That could happen, but I don't think it's a done deal unless Teahen goes on the DL.

Viciedo is in the lineup for Charlotte today.

dickallen15
05-15-2011, 01:39 PM
If the Sox actually do this, to me the obvious choice to lead off is Rios.
You must enjoy the Sox leadoff hitter making outs.

sox1970
05-15-2011, 01:43 PM
News on Teahen...

http://twitter.com/#!/MDGonzales/status/69834334525341697

Not so fast on Viciedo.

JermaineDye05
05-15-2011, 01:51 PM
News on Teahen...

http://twitter.com/#!/MDGonzales/status/69834334525341697 (http://twitter.com/#%21/MDGonzales/status/69834334525341697)

Not so fast on Viciedo.

Can we just make a decision on Pierre already?

It shouldn't be hard. He's clearly not helping the team.

sox1970
05-15-2011, 02:02 PM
FYI...Viciedo is 1-2, double, 3 RBIs today.

He's forcing a decision, for sure. But can we live with Alexei leading off? Maybe for a while?

JermaineDye05
05-15-2011, 02:05 PM
FYI...Viciedo is 1-2, double, 3 RBIs today.

He's forcing a decision, for sure. But can we live with Alexei leading off? Maybe for a while?

Send Alexei down to Charlotte for a day as punishment for the **** he pulled on third base yesterday.

dickallen15
05-15-2011, 02:27 PM
Is it beyond the realm of possibility that if Teahen is OK, Pierre is the one who gets shown the door? Its not like he's been getting on base or stealing bases or getting extra base hits or playing decent defense. The season is 25% over, a hunk of his salary is paid by the McCourts, is is possible Pierre gets the DFA treatment if Teahen can play? The Sox are desperate for offense and staying in Charlotte does nothing for Viciedo, especially when he could help the major league team with his bat.

Daver
05-15-2011, 02:32 PM
Send Alexei down to Charlotte for a day as punishment for the **** he pulled on third base yesterday.

He wouldn't clear waivers.

JermaineDye05
05-15-2011, 03:24 PM
He wouldn't clear waivers.

True.

Give him a ticket to a game then. :tongue:

soulfly
05-15-2011, 03:46 PM
He wouldn't clear waivers.

Just curious, would someone in his position still have options left? Not that the Sox would ever send him down, but now I'm wondering if he has any.

getonbckthr
05-15-2011, 04:16 PM
I wish there was a way to get Jose Reyes to leadoff and shift him to 2B, move Gordon back to 3B and use Viciedo in LF. Viciedo probably is a hack in LF but JP ain't much better. You can deal with bad defense if offensively he's a making a difference, Pierre is not.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2011, 04:19 PM
Pierre with 2 GIDPs today.

canOcorn
05-15-2011, 04:22 PM
He wouldn't clear waivers.

Then his butt should've been dumped earlier because that's a lot of coin the Sox could save and take on in a potential trade to fill hole(s).

Daver
05-15-2011, 04:24 PM
Then his butt should've been dumped earlier because that's a lot of coin the Sox could save and take on in a potential trade to fill hole(s).

I think Alexei Ramirez is earning his paycheck as much as any MLB player does.

Tragg
05-15-2011, 04:25 PM
We have no one in the minors who can catch the ball in left and hit for an obp of a measly .330?
Pierre's just brutal this year.

Daver
05-15-2011, 04:26 PM
I wish there was a way to get Jose Reyes to leadoff and shift him to 2B, move Gordon back to 3B and use Viciedo in LF. Viciedo probably is a hack in LF but JP ain't much better. You can deal with bad defense if offensively he's a making a difference, Pierre is not.

When a team is struggling to score runs the worst thing you can do is put yourself in a position to give more runs away, which is exactly what you get with Viciedo in left. I doubt he will drive in as many as he gives away.

Frater Perdurabo
05-15-2011, 04:33 PM
When a team is struggling to score runs the worst thing you can do is put yourself in a position to give more runs away, which is exactly what you get with Viciedo in left. I doubt he will drive in as many as he gives away.

What would you do with the LF situation?

How about Jordan Danks?

canOcorn
05-15-2011, 04:34 PM
I think Alexei Ramirez is earning his paycheck as much as any MLB player does.

Sorry, I failed reading comprehension. I thought you meant Juan wouldn't clear waivers.

DirtySox
05-15-2011, 04:36 PM
What would you do with the LF situation?

How about Jordan Danks?

I'm not Daver clearly, but Jordan is actually starting to not strikeout as much while hitting for power. He shouldn't be messed with right now.

voodoochile
05-15-2011, 04:40 PM
Then his butt should've been dumped earlier because that's a lot of coin the Sox could save and take on in a potential trade to fill hole(s).

Every day I get more and more reminders how happy I am you and the rest of the knee-jerk reactionaries aren't even remotely close to making any decisions regarding Sox personnel and day to day operations, but carry on with your otherwise finely scripted analysis...

Daver
05-15-2011, 04:41 PM
What would you do with the LF situation?


Panic.

canOcorn
05-15-2011, 04:49 PM
Every day I get more and more reminders how happy I am you and the rest of the knee-jerk reactionaries aren't even remotely close to making any decisions regarding Sox personnel and day to day operations, but carry on with your otherwise finely scripted analysis...

Read a little further down the thread......

Tragg
05-15-2011, 04:50 PM
DeAza?

DSpivack
05-15-2011, 05:01 PM
DeAza?

As I posted in the game thread, Pierre has a .316 OBP in the majors, while De Aza has a .306 OBP in AAA. Pierre may be a problem, but De Aza ain't the solution. Who or what that solution may be, I do not know.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-15-2011, 05:05 PM
When a team is struggling to score runs the worst thing you can do is put yourself in a position to give more runs away, which is exactly what you get with Viciedo in left. I doubt he will drive in as many as he gives away.

Then Viciedo should be traded for someone that can play the field. Since DH is blocked for the next couple of years they either let Viciedo play in the field or they trade him. Simple as that.

sox1970
05-15-2011, 05:07 PM
As I posted in the game thread, Pierre has a .316 OBP in the majors, while De Aza has a .306 OBP in AAA. Pierre may be a problem, but De Aza ain't the solution. Who or what that solution may be, I do not know.

I'd be willing to give him a few weeks just because he isn't Juan Pierre. Maybe you catch lightning in a bottle, and maybe he just buys you a few weeks before you can make a trade. Anything is better than Juan Pierre right now.

voodoochile
05-15-2011, 05:14 PM
Read a little further down the thread......

My point stands...

Daver
05-15-2011, 05:31 PM
Then Viciedo should be traded for someone that can play the field. Since DH is blocked for the next couple of years they either let Viciedo play in the field or they trade him. Simple as that.

I would suggest that you call Kenny Williams tomorrow morning and share this wisdom with him, I'm confident he will appreciate it.

billyvsox
05-15-2011, 05:58 PM
Teahan to the DL, Viciedo up.

Pierre DFA, De Aza up.

Start Viciedo in right field, move Q to left (where he is better) and use De Aza and Lilli as defensive replacements, pinch runners

JermaineDye05
05-15-2011, 05:59 PM
Teahan to the DL, Viciedo up.

Pierre DFA, De Aza up.

Start Viciedo in right field, move Q to left (where he is better) and use De Aza and Lilli as defensive replacements, pinch runners

Make sure you clarify that this is what you think the White Sox should do.

Reading this post, it gives the impression that it's actually happened.

1989
05-15-2011, 06:00 PM
The answer is simply yes

billyvsox
05-15-2011, 06:03 PM
Make sure you clarify that this is what you think the White Sox should do.

Reading this post, it gives the impression that it's actually happened.

This is what I think the Sox should do....sorry

1989
05-15-2011, 06:07 PM
Send Alexei down to Charlotte for a day as punishment for the **** he pulled on third base yesterday.

I think forcing him to watch Pierre hit would suffice

Golden Sox
05-15-2011, 06:12 PM
Keep the Cuban Tank in the minors until he learns how to play defense. Toronto released Scotty Pods the other day. Bring back Scotty Pods to the great South Side of Chicago.

JermaineDye05
05-15-2011, 06:13 PM
Keep the Cuban Tank in the minors until he learns how to play defense. Toronto released Scotty Pods the other day. Bring back Scotty Pods to the great South Side of Chicago.

Juan Pierre has transformed into Scotty Pods this season. I don't think we need another.

ZombieRob
05-15-2011, 06:18 PM
Who leads off? Ramirez? Beckham? Lillibridge is the best option to lead off if Pierre is sent bench or DFA. That means Beckham has to sit. Tough call.

canOcorn
05-15-2011, 06:35 PM
Teahan to the DL, Viciedo up.

Pierre DFA, De Aza up.

Start Viciedo in right field, move Q to left (where he is better) and use De Aza and Lilli as defensive replacements, pinch runners

Sounds like a horrible idea unless the Club actually makes the move and then it's a great idea.