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Lip Man 1
05-07-2011, 05:32 PM
Phil Rogers weighs in on the White Sox. Says firing Ozzie isn't the answer appears to lay the blame completely on Kenny Williams. Does list potential replacements for Ozzie if Sox pull the trigger, which he says would be a mistake.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/sc-spt-0508-notes-rogers-baseball--20110507,0,4892965,full.column

Lip

soltrain21
05-07-2011, 05:48 PM
His reasoning for not firing Ozzie is dumb.

guillensdisciple
05-07-2011, 06:08 PM
I'm sure someone has thought of this, but maybe this team needs a spark plug from someone who has not been around this cancerous and losing clubhoouse. I think it might be time to bring up that Cuban hammer you have waiting in the minors to give this offense a boost. They say hitting is contagious, and while I don't think we're going to get anywhere, maybe he'll be the player we've been waiting for since we deemed Gordo to be it.

NLaloosh
05-07-2011, 06:10 PM
There's a whole slew of reasons why Kenny needs to be replaced now. There have been so many bad moves in the last few years that have really hurt this organization. And, unless the Sox happen to turn this around and go deep in the playoffs, there's no future.

But, really, all you need is this one; the Sox entered the season "all in" without even 1 single pitcher on the whole staff that had ever been a closer. $ 130 mil. and no closer and he let a perfectly fine one leave that he could have signed for $ 5 mil. (Putz).

Honestly, if Kenny would have just signed Putz for a little money this team would be at least .500 now and the whole complexion of this season would be different. The bullpen would not be the disaster that it has been. That really took very little foresight.

Tragg
05-07-2011, 06:13 PM
I don't know if Rogers' point is sufficient reason not to fire Guillen, but he is certainly correct that Williams' farm system has not produced the young talent that the managers of the 1990s enjoyed. There have been no Venturas or McDowells; no Fernandez'; and certainly no Frank Thomases.

Fenway
05-07-2011, 06:17 PM
Phil Rogers weighs in on the White Sox. Says firing Ozzie isn't the answer appears to lay the blame completely on Kenny Williams. Does list potential replacements for Ozzie if Sox pull the trigger, which he says would be a mistake.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseball/whitesox/sc-spt-0508-notes-rogers-baseball--20110507,0,4892965,full.column

Lip

Curious how he doesn't mention Macha

DeMarlo Hale is going to be a great manager if someone just gives him a chance.....he did wonders in Trenton and Pawtucket and players love him....

Hale stuck with a young kid in Trenton that Duquette hated - David Eckstein

WhiteSox5187
05-07-2011, 06:24 PM
I think that Ozzie is actually a pretty good manager if he's given the right team. The thing is that Kenny hasn't given him that kind of team in awhile. I am starting to think that it's time for Ozzie to go, but the problems don't end with him. Kenny is every bit as culpable as Ozzie is for the team's struggles the past two years. I wouldn't object to Ozzie being fired soon, I would object if Kenny is kept at the end of this season.

Brian26
05-07-2011, 06:54 PM
I don't know if Rogers' point is sufficient reason not to fire Guillen, but he is certainly correct that Williams' farm system has not produced the young talent that the managers of the 1990s enjoyed. There have been no Venturas or McDowells; no Fernandez'; and certainly no Frank Thomases.

Even more to the point, I think he was talking about how Kenny inherited Carlos Lee, Mags, Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, and Garland from the Sox farm system. Although Mags and CLee didn't play on the 2005 team, Kenny parlayed those two guys into Podsednik, Vizcaino, Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, El Duque, and Dye.

SI1020
05-07-2011, 07:02 PM
His reasoning for not firing Ozzie is dumb. I find his reasoning in general to be lacking.

Tragg
05-07-2011, 09:59 PM
Even more to the point, I think he was talking about how Kenny inherited Carlos Lee, Mags, Crede, Rowand, Buehrle, and Garland from the Sox farm system. Although Mags and CLee didn't play on the 2005 team, Kenny parlayed those two guys into Podsednik, Vizcaino, Iguchi, AJ, Hermanson, El Duque, and Dye.
Inherited Durham too and Keith Foulke. That wasn't a direct parlay, but Williams did acquire those guys, who put forth a superior effort in 2005, no question.

Brian26
05-07-2011, 10:14 PM
Inherited Durham too and Keith Foulke. That wasn't a direct parlay, but Williams did acquire those guys, who put forth a superior effort in 2005, no question.

Good point on Foulke. Kenny traded him to the A's for Koch, but Neal Cotts was a player to be named later in that trade.

Durham also went to the A's for Jon Adkins, who at least pitched in a few games in 2004 and 2005.

doublem23
05-07-2011, 10:46 PM
Phil Rogers wouldn't know the difference between his ass and a fastball

doublem23
05-07-2011, 10:48 PM
Hale stuck with a young kid in Trenton that Duquette hated - David Eckstein

You're aware that Eckstein was an incredibly ****ty baseball player, right?

beasly213
05-07-2011, 10:49 PM
phil rogers wouldn't know the difference between his ass and a fastball

+1

soxinem1
05-07-2011, 10:56 PM
Normally I agree with the fact Phil Rogers is a louse, however in this article he makes many valid points, mainly the total lack of production from KW's farm system along with several solid future managers.

Tragg
05-08-2011, 11:26 AM
Good point on Foulke. Kenny traded him to the A's for Koch, but Neal Cotts was a player to be named later in that trade.

Durham also went to the A's for Jon Adkins, who at least pitched in a few games in 2004 and 2005.
he got snookered for Durham.
The big mistake back then was Ritchie. He traded 2 fifth starters for him. What was the great weakness of those 2001-04 teams? Lack of fifth starter.
Cotts was stellar in 05, so that Foulke trade arguably was a plus. Incredible how he immediately lost it and never came close to recovering.

Fenway
05-08-2011, 11:57 AM
You're aware that Eckstein was an incredibly ****ty baseball player, right?

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006/10/27/eckstein.jpg

mjmcend
05-08-2011, 12:02 PM
http://images.usatoday.com/sports/_photos/2006/10/27/eckstein.jpg

A 5-game series does not negate thoroughly below average career.

cards press box
05-08-2011, 12:24 PM
Phil Rogers wouldn't know the difference between his ass and a fastball

Well put! Rogers doesn't add a whole lot to the conversation.

You're aware that Eckstein was an incredibly ****ty baseball player, right?

I have to disagree on this one, though. Flags fly forever and Eckstein was the starting shortstop on World Champs from both leagues, the 2002 Angels and the 2006 Cardinals. And wasn't he the MVP of the 2006 World Series? Eckstein got the most out of the talent he had. He was a good ballplayer.

kufram
05-08-2011, 12:55 PM
You're aware that Eckstein was an incredibly ****ty baseball player, right?


Well, if that is actually true he was incredible over-achiever. I wouldn't mind some of that around.

DirtySox
05-08-2011, 01:02 PM
WSI loves average, grindy, hard-nosed ballplayers? Shocked.

SI1020
05-08-2011, 01:40 PM
If Beckham and Morel can elevate their games to the level of Eckstein at his best I will be more than happy.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2011, 03:06 PM
WSI loves average, grindy, hard-nosed ballplayers? Shocked.

I prefer a team filled with overpriced underachievers who together play worse than the sum of their parts.

Frater Perdurabo
05-08-2011, 03:08 PM
I prefer a team filled with overpriced underachievers who together play worse than the sum of their parts.

Especially when they repeatedly make mental fielding, throwing and baserunning errors.

doublem23
05-08-2011, 04:20 PM
If Beckham and Morel can elevate their games to the level of Eckstein at his best I will be more than happy.

Gordon Beckham > David Eckstein

doublem23
05-08-2011, 04:29 PM
I have to disagree on this one, though. Flags fly forever and Eckstein was the starting shortstop on World Champs from both leagues, the 2002 Angels and the 2006 Cardinals. And wasn't he the MVP of the 2006 World Series? Eckstein got the most out of the talent he had. He was a good ballplayer.

Aw yeah, team championships, what a way to judge individual players.

asindc
05-08-2011, 08:18 PM
I agree with one point he made: Firing someone is pointless unless you have a strong replacement lined up.

DSpivack
05-08-2011, 08:21 PM
Gordon Beckham > David Eckstein

Not by much unless he puts up numbers like his rookie year. I fear this team, coaching staff, and approach have ruined him.

russ99
05-08-2011, 09:51 PM
I'm sure someone has thought of this, but maybe this team needs a spark plug from someone who has not been around this cancerous and losing clubhoouse. I think it might be time to bring up that Cuban hammer you have waiting in the minors to give this offense a boost. They say hitting is contagious, and while I don't think we're going to get anywhere, maybe he'll be the player we've been waiting for since we deemed Gordo to be it.


Peavy's coming in this week, and his insane competitiveness won't stand for the hangdog mentality around the club lately.

slavko
05-08-2011, 10:07 PM
Not by much unless he puts up numbers like his rookie year. I fear this team, coaching staff, and approach have ruined him.

Something's ruined him. My vote goes to not enough time in the minors.

DSpivack
05-08-2011, 10:10 PM
Something's ruined him. My vote goes to not enough time in the minors.

That's certainly a possibility. But I worry what sending him down now would do.

HaroMaster87
05-08-2011, 10:20 PM
Gordon Beckham > David Eckstein

Beckham has a bit of work to do before this post is true...IMO

Take a good look at his numbers...

doublem23
05-08-2011, 10:27 PM
Beckham has a bit of work to do before this post is true...IMO

Take a good look at his numbers...

Look at Eckstein's

People lose their **** for the guy because he's like 5 1/2 feet tall and there's no expectations of him. The guy was terrible for basically his entire career save for 1 season and apparently a week-long stretch during a World Series I don't remember. If only we could all be so lucky to fool so many people into thinking we were successful while being so god damn bad at our job.

DSpivack
05-08-2011, 10:31 PM
Look at Eckstein's

People lose their **** for the guy because he's like 5 1/2 feet tall and there's no expectations of him. The guy was terrible for basically his entire career save for 1 season and apparently a week-long stretch during a World Series I don't remember. If only we could all be so lucky to fool so many people into thinking we were successful while being so god damn bad at our job.

I'm no fan of Eckstein, but he was a career .280/.340 hitter. Beckham has some work to do before he gets to that point, and he's done nothing but get worse since his rookie year.

kaufsox
05-08-2011, 10:35 PM
That's certainly a possibility. But I worry what sending him down now would do.

Hard to say he needed more time in the minors when he was a ROY candidate. Obviously, he did pretty well that year, and the second half of last season he was on a tear. Don't think time in the minors would have been a welcome event from July-Oct. Maybe, like the vast majority of major league ball players, he's mediocre with a flash of brilliance and an occasional streak of fucunditry.

HaroMaster87
05-08-2011, 10:35 PM
Look at Eckstein's

People lose their **** for the guy because he's like 5 1/2 feet tall and there's no expectations of him. The guy was terrible for basically his entire career save for 1 season and apparently a week-long stretch during a World Series I don't remember. If only we could all be so lucky to fool so many people into thinking we were successful while being so god damn bad at our job.

Like Beckham maybe?

All of his numbers are better than GB's, albeit a smaller sample size. Except for his power. But average, WAR and .OPS if it wasnt for GB's good first half. And he's a 2 time all star and a WS MVP...

I have no love for Eckstein and dont have a horse in this race as I am no longer a Beckham fan but I checked the numbers and we can only hope 'ole Gordo's numbers will look like these and have that long of a career cuz it ain't looking good...

cards press box
05-09-2011, 12:41 AM
Aw yeah, team championships, what a way to judge individual players.

Don't you think that Eckstein played an important role in those championsip teams? It is hard to think any world champion that doesn't have a good shortstop and, in 2002 and 2006, Eckstein had very good years. Look at his stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/eckstda01.shtml): in 2002, Eckstein hit .293 with 8 homers and 63 RBI and scored 107 runs. He stole 21 bases and had an on-base percentage of .363. Add in good defense and good handling of the bat and Eckstein was a lot better than average for the 2002 World Champs. Here is another interesting little fact: Eckstein finished 11th in the MVP voting in 2002, the highest of any Angel except for Garret Anderson, who finished 4th.

With the 2006 Cardinals, Eckstein hit .292 with a .350 OBP. He only hit 2 HR with 23 RBI but in the 2006 World Series, Eckstein was the MVP.

I know that 2002 was Eckstein's career year. He did well in 2006 and other years, too, and for his career, he hit .280 with a .345 OBP. He stole 123 bases in a 10 year career and played steady defense.

Eckstein was not a star (except for 2002) but he was a fine ballplayer who helped his clubs. Why the angst about him?

Foulke You
05-09-2011, 01:08 AM
Honestly, if Kenny would have just signed Putz for a little money this team would be at least .500 now and the whole complexion of this season would be different. The bullpen would not be the disaster that it has been. That really took very little foresight.
Would JJ Putz have any impact on our HORRIBLE offense in the last 3 weeks? This team's #1 problem during this skid has been the lack of offensive production, not closer. Kenny banked on either Crain, Santos, or Sale being able to take over the closer role if Thornton faltered. So far, Kenny has been proven correct since Santos has done the job well and it appears we found our closer. Now, if we can just get this offense in gear...

khan
05-09-2011, 10:09 AM
Hard to say he needed more time in the minors when he was a ROY candidate. Obviously, he did pretty well that year, and the second half of last season he was on a tear. Don't think time in the minors would have been a welcome event from July-Oct. Maybe, like the vast majority of major league ball players, he's mediocre with a flash of brilliance and an occasional streak of fucunditry.
I feel like I've seen this movie before, where a SOX youngster comes up, and does well for awhile.

Then, the rest of the league bothers to scout him, and that youngster becomes a much lesser player than we'd hoped for initially.

Think of how the great Josh Fields hit a bunch of HR in garbage time in his first season, only to fade to oblivion.

Or Gordon "The Future Captain of The White Sox" Beckham had a ROY-type season in his first go-around, only to wet the bed for huge swaths of subsequent seasons.

Or Chris Sale, who looked unhittable in his cup of coffee a year ago, only to embarrass himself to the tune of a 1.76 WHIP and a > .300 BA allowed in this season.


I don't know if this is really a trend or not, but I do feel like I've seen this sort of thing before from a SOX youngster.

SI1020
05-09-2011, 10:16 AM
Don't you think that Eckstein played an important role in those championsip teams? It is hard to think any world champion that doesn't have a good shortstop and, in 2002 and 2006, Eckstein had very good years. Look at his stats (http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/e/eckstda01.shtml): in 2002, Eckstein hit .293 with 8 homers and 63 RBI and scored 107 runs. He stole 21 bases and had an on-base percentage of .363. Add in good defense and good handling of the bat and Eckstein was a lot better than average for the 2002 World Champs. Here is another interesting little fact: Eckstein finished 11th in the MVP voting in 2002, the highest of any Angel except for Garret Anderson, who finished 4th.

With the 2006 Cardinals, Eckstein hit .292 with a .350 OBP. He only hit 2 HR with 23 RBI but in the 2006 World Series, Eckstein was the MVP.

I know that 2002 was Eckstein's career year. He did well in 2006 and other years, too, and for his career, he hit .280 with a .345 OBP. He stole 123 bases in a 10 year career and played steady defense.

Eckstein was not a star (except for 2002) but he was a fine ballplayer who helped his clubs. Why the angst about him? I think he just can't stand the guy, a visceral kind of thing.

doublem23
05-09-2011, 10:34 AM
I think he just can't stand the guy, a visceral kind of thing.

He just wasn't very good. I never met Eckstein, I don't know the guy, he could be a saint for all I know, I just hate that people write about him like he's this championship-level catalyst and basically, he just sucked for a decade. Hey, more power to the guy, he should be a motivational speaker. I'd love it if I had 1/10th of his ability to completely trick people into thinking he wasn't absolutely awful at his job. It's nice, I'm sure. :cool:

Foulke You
05-09-2011, 11:14 AM
He just wasn't very good. I never met Eckstein, I don't know the guy, he could be a saint for all I know, I just hate that people write about him like he's this championship-level catalyst and basically, he just sucked for a decade. Hey, more power to the guy, he should be a motivational speaker. I'd love it if I had 1/10th of his ability to completely trick people into thinking he wasn't absolutely awful at his job. It's nice, I'm sure. :cool:
I think people's view of Eckstein is skewed because he performed well in October a couple times. He was a big part of the 2002 Angels and the 2006 Cardinals postseason runs. People tend to remember that about Eckstein more than his mediocre regular season numbers. Postseason performance even skews MLB GM's opinions from time to time. Remember when Jeff Suppan parlayed his October 2006 performance into a huge multi-year deal with the Brewers? It's easy to forget a player's flaws when they are holding up a trophy in a champagne soaked t-shirt.

kaufsox
05-09-2011, 01:01 PM
I feel like I've seen this movie before, where a SOX youngster comes up, and does well for awhile.

Then, the rest of the league bothers to scout him, and that youngster becomes a much lesser player than we'd hoped for initially.

Think of how the great Josh Fields hit a bunch of HR in garbage time in his first season, only to fade to oblivion.

Or Gordon "The Future Captain of The White Sox" Beckham had a ROY-type season in his first go-around, only to wet the bed for huge swaths of subsequent seasons.

Or Chris Sale, who looked unhittable in his cup of coffee a year ago, only to embarrass himself to the tune of a 1.76 WHIP and a > .300 BA allowed in this season.


I don't know if this is really a trend or not, but I do feel like I've seen this sort of thing before from a SOX youngster.

I see what you're saying and I think it has a lot to do with the Sox farm system than anything else. I mean, I think everybody you've mentioned was ready for the majors, but like you said the league catches up to them and they don't have the next level. I'm not ready to say that about Beckham and Sale just yet, but that happens to a lot of prospects regardless of the team. One example that people still want to convince me is going to be great is Joba Chamberlain. The league will find the holes in a swing and the pitch that just doesn't work. If making adjustments isn't part of a players make up, they won't be a superstar, and maybe that's where Beckham is, lots of natural talent but not able to make that next step. FWIW, I love Beckham by the way, he's my son's favorite player, seems like a good guy. I just wish he was playing baseball a lot better.

HaroMaster87
05-09-2011, 11:36 PM
He just wasn't very good. I never met Eckstein, I don't know the guy, he could be a saint for all I know, I just hate that people write about him like he's this championship-level catalyst and basically, he just sucked for a decade. Hey, more power to the guy, he should be a motivational speaker. I'd love it if I had 1/10th of his ability to completely trick people into thinking he wasn't absolutely awful at his job. It's nice, I'm sure. :cool:


That is a HUGE exaggeration...he is a career .280 hitter.

Yup...I agree...you just hate him for some reason. To me, he's just average. But still better than our number 15.

miker
05-10-2011, 07:56 AM
Baseball history is filled with regular guys that put up average stats (or as doublem23 calls them, "god damn bad") who peak at key times.

For example, Bill Mazeroski -- although it should be noted he was an excellent defensive 2B.

That's the beauty of baseball. Some Joe works his tail off and becomes a World Series hero. Some Adonis with all the skill and ability in the world strikes out in the same situation. Baseball is like life: seldom fair, but with occasional, satisfying moments.

I won't speak for anyone else, but that one reason why I like it.

rdivaldi
05-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Phil Rogers picking an opportune time to push an agenda about Kenny Williams and the farm system? I'm shocked. Seriously, I looked at the calendar today and it reads "May 10". If you're calling for firings and overhauling a team on May 10th, then you really don't understand baseball, you're looking for publicity and airing dirty laundry.

rdivaldi
05-10-2011, 09:31 AM
I feel like I've seen this movie before, where a SOX youngster comes up, and does well for awhile.

Then, the rest of the league bothers to scout him, and that youngster becomes a much lesser player than we'd hoped for initially.

Think of how the great Josh Fields hit a bunch of HR in garbage time in his first season, only to fade to oblivion.

Or Gordon "The Future Captain of The White Sox" Beckham had a ROY-type season in his first go-around, only to wet the bed for huge swaths of subsequent seasons.

Or Chris Sale, who looked unhittable in his cup of coffee a year ago, only to embarrass himself to the tune of a 1.76 WHIP and a > .300 BA allowed in this season.


I don't know if this is really a trend or not, but I do feel like I've seen this sort of thing before from a SOX youngster.

You've seen this thing before from youngsters from every single farm system in baseball. Sox fans don't seem to be able to wait out the bad times and assume that if a player struggles in his 1st, 2nd or 3rd year, there's no way he will ever succeed going forward. Impatience is this fan base's worst enemy.

Lip Man 1
05-10-2011, 10:57 AM
Divaldi:

Well considering the Sox have been to two World Series since 1919, it's pretty hard to ask them to be "patient" don't you agree?

We're not talking Cardinal or Angel like post season appearances are we?

Is that unfair to players? Absolutely...but I understand where the fan base is coming from considering what history says.

Lip

SI1020
05-10-2011, 11:00 AM
Sox fans not patient. I must admit I lost mine when I read that. Sox fans are beyond patient.

FarmerAndy
05-10-2011, 11:11 AM
but he is certainly correct that Williams' farm system has not produced the young talent that the managers of the 1990s enjoyed. There have been no Venturas or McDowells; no Fernandez'; and certainly no Frank Thomases.

I know I enjoyed all the champoinships those teams won.

SI1020
05-10-2011, 11:27 AM
I know I enjoyed all the champoinships those teams won. You might have been able to enjoy one.

SoxfaninLA
05-10-2011, 12:03 PM
he got snookered for Durham.
The big mistake back then was Ritchie. He traded 2 fifth starters for him. What was the great weakness of those 2001-04 teams? Lack of fifth starter.
Cotts was stellar in 05, so that Foulke trade arguably was a plus. Incredible how he immediately lost it and never came close to recovering.

Ritchie trade was awful, no one will argue that, but people are unfair when they criticize the Durham trade.

At the time Durham was traded, it looked as if the whole free agent compensation/arbitration system was going to change. It was STRONGLY rumored at the time that in that offseason you would no longer get awarded compensatory draft picks for free agents who declined arbitration. This lowered the deadline trade value of a lot of guys in the final year of their contract in 2002.

khan
05-10-2011, 12:21 PM
You've seen this thing before from youngsters from every single farm system in baseball. Sox fans don't seem to be able to wait out the bad times and assume that if a player struggles in his 1st, 2nd or 3rd year, there's no way he will ever succeed going forward. Impatience is this fan base's worst enemy.

Oh, I agree that this sort of thing happens everywhere in MLB. But, I wonder if there is something systemic in the organization that encourages this sort of outcome with the youngsters.


At the same time, I wonder if the FO knows when to sell high on a guy [i.e. Fields after his miracle cup of coffee season], and when to send a kid down, so as to foster further growth in the kid/prevent the kid from hurting the big club. [i.e. Beckham being barely replacement level for much of 2010, and most of 2011; Chris Sale with his horrific >6.5 ERA allowed hereto fore in 2011.]

While I could be wrong, it can seem at times that the organization is too stubborn for it's own good.

In terms of "impatience," how is being in favor of letting a kid work out his issues in Charlotte a lack of "patience?" I actually view it as giving a youngster as much time as is necessary to become the player he can become. In other words, showing "patience" with the kid.

But, if you support letting a kid work out his issues HERE, while the rest of the team struggles, I view that as foolhardy. [I'm pretty sure that Infante can have a > 6.5 ERA here, while Sale figures it out in Charlotte. I'm pretty sure that Abuelo Omar can provide the mighty .641 OPS that Beckham has provided for a few weeks while Beckham figures out his issues, too.]

rdivaldi
05-10-2011, 02:25 PM
Divaldi:

Well considering the Sox have been to two World Series since 1919, it's pretty hard to ask them to be "patient" don't you agree?

We're not talking Cardinal or Angel like post season appearances are we?

Is that unfair to players? Absolutely...but I understand where the fan base is coming from considering what history says.

Lip

Considering one of those World Series was in 2005, I don't think the modern day fan should be too up in arms about that particular aspect. I do understand the playoff appearance frustration, with our financial advantage over the other teams in our division, I would hope for 4+ playoff appearances per decade.

I often wonder what would happen if the team actually did pull the plug on a season and a core group of players? It's been a long time since we've gone into a season not trying to win. 2007 may have been just a disaster, but they weren't trying to re-build that season, it just ended up that way.

rdivaldi
05-10-2011, 02:35 PM
In terms of "impatience," how is being in favor of letting a kid work out his issues in Charlotte a lack of "patience?" I actually view it as giving a youngster as much time as is necessary to become the player he can become. In other words, showing "patience" with the kid.

But, if you support letting a kid work out his issues HERE, while the rest of the team struggles, I view that as foolhardy. [I'm pretty sure that Infante can have a > 6.5 ERA here, while Sale figures it out in Charlotte. I'm pretty sure that Abuelo Omar can provide the mighty .641 OPS that Beckham has provided for a few weeks while Beckham figures out his issues, too.]

In terms of patience, how many people were bellyaching about Danks after 2007? Some guys just don't click in the majors right away, but if you stick with them you might be rewarded.

I will admit that some of these guys may never figure it out, but I don't think there is anything in Charlotte that is going to get them to shake off a slump. If anything I'd rather they be under the watchful eyes of major league coaches (although I wonder about Walker sometimes). Slumps come and go, I say let them fight through it.

Moses_Scurry
05-10-2011, 02:44 PM
In terms of patience, how many people were bellyaching about Danks after 2007? Some guys just don't click in the majors right away, but if you stick with them you might be rewarded.

I will admit that some of these guys may never figure it out, but I don't think there is anything in Charlotte that is going to get them to shake off a slump. If anything I'd rather they be under the watchful eyes of major league coaches (although I wonder about Walker sometimes). Slumps come and go, I say let them fight through it.

I think a lot of it depends on who you have down in the minors to bring up. Sure, Infante and Abuelo could probably replicate Sale and Beckham's current stats, but chances are they will probably do no better than replicating and they might be worse. It would be different if there were some players tearing the cover off the ball that were also regarded as at least decent prospects. Then you bring them up and send down Sale and Beckham. Since I don't know the minor leagues very well, I don't know who would even be fit to bring up at this time. If there isn't anybody (and that seems to be the general consensus) then you have to hope Sale and Beckham can get through their problems on the fly.

khan
05-10-2011, 02:45 PM
In terms of patience, how many people were bellyaching about Danks after 2007? Some guys just don't click in the majors right away, but if you stick with them you might be rewarded.

I will admit that some of these guys may never figure it out, but I don't think there is anything in Charlotte that is going to get them to shake off a slump. If anything I'd rather they be under the watchful eyes of major league coaches (although I wonder about Walker sometimes). Slumps come and go, I say let them fight through it.
This and that:

1. Look back at Fields' numbers in the minor leagues. While minor league numbers don't always give an accurate snapshot of a player's ceiling and floor, they can give you a general idea. Fields was always an error or a strikeout waiting to happen. I have always viewed Fields' 2007 season as the gift certificate that KW refused to cash in.

2. I believed in Danks as a prospect back in 2007. That said, he also wasn't known to have faulty mechanics, and he also did better than Sale is doing now. I don't see these two as being at all similar, honestly.

3. Everyone can spin yarns about Ramirez's slow starts, but isn't Beckham's craptacular 1st halves equally damaging or worse to the team? Some here have even suggested some regression on his part.

I believe in Beckham as a prospect, while I did NOT believe in Fields. However, there is no shame in sending a kid back down for him to gather himself/not hurt the big club. Plenty of good and even GREAT players had to go back down to the minors over the course of MLB's history.

khan
05-10-2011, 02:49 PM
I think a lot of it depends on who you have down in the minors to bring up. Sure, Infante and Abuelo could probably replicate Sale and Beckham's current stats, but chances are they will probably do no better than replicating and they might be worse.

With respect to Beckham/Vizquel, Abuelo Omar is ALREADY outperforming Beckham.

With respect to Sale, it actually wouldn't be Infante replacing his roster spot. It would/should be Peavy. Even with his injury history, I'm pretty sure that Peavy can provide better value to the roster than Sale in the shorter term.


In any case, we're not talking about banishing these two to Great Falls for a year or two. One would hope that a few weeks of riding busses would be just the proper motivation for them, and help to return their performances to an acceptable level. [I don't think that ANYONE would suggest that either Sale or Beckham have been performing acceptably, right?]

FarmerAndy
05-10-2011, 03:04 PM
I often wonder what would happen if the team actually did pull the plug on a season and a core group of players? It's been a long time since we've gone into a season not trying to win. 2007 may have been just a disaster, but they weren't trying to re-build that season, it just ended up that way.

Everybody would complain about it.

SI1020
05-11-2011, 08:59 AM
Everybody would complain about it. I don't necessarily think that is the case. A lot of us are unhappy with the current direction of the team and would be willing to bite the bullet for a few years to see if management can shift gears and build from within. If I'm wrong then at least I know I would.

Jim Shorts
05-11-2011, 09:25 AM
At the same time, I wonder if the FO knows when to sell high on a guy

Brandon McCarthy immediately comes to mind. Though the merit of your point is well taken.

khan
05-11-2011, 09:56 AM
Brandon McCarthy immediately comes to mind. Though the merit of your point is well taken.

If memory serves, didn't Texas make the offer of Danks/Masset/minor league fodder for McCarthy, and not the other way around?

If this is so, even with McCarthy, it wasn't KW "selling high" so much as Texas losing their ****ing minds.


At the same time, KW [incredibly] kept his pie-hole shut about McCarthy's/Anderson's proclivities towards nightlife; this uncharacteristic [for KW] silence preserved McCarthy's trade value. [Unlike in the cases of Vazquez and Swisher, where those dumbasses couldn't keep their damn mouths shut...]

asindc
05-11-2011, 10:18 AM
Brandon McCarthy immediately comes to mind. Though the merit of your point is well taken.

Chris Carter
De Los Santos
Freddy to Philly
Aaron Rowand

Jim Shorts
05-11-2011, 10:26 AM
If memory serves, didn't Texas make the offer of Danks/Masset/minor league fodder for McCarthy, and not the other way around?

If this is so, even with McCarthy, it wasn't KW "selling high" so much as Texas losing their ****ing minds.


At the same time, KW [incredibly] kept his pie-hole shut about McCarthy's/Anderson's proclivities towards nightlife; this uncharacteristic [for KW] silence preserved McCarthy's trade value. [Unlike in the cases of Vazquez and Swisher, where those dumbasses couldn't keep their damn mouths shut...]

I think your disappointment with everything is clouding your judgement. Everyone was asking about McCarthy for nearly a year and a half.

Kenny sold high, regardless of how you spin it.

khan
05-11-2011, 10:35 AM
I think your disappointment with everything is clouding your judgement. Everyone was asking about McCarthy for nearly a year and a half.

Kenny sold high, regardless of how you spin it.

I don't disagree that he sold high on McCarthy. I'm merely observing that the haul he got in return was moreso due to Texas losing their minds.

khan
05-11-2011, 10:46 AM
Chris Carter
De Los Santos
Freddy to Philly
Aaron Rowand

None of these guys really fall under "selling high" on a prospect, except for [perhaps] Carter;

Even at that, Chris Carter was the asking price for Quentin, who was a much higher-regarded prospect, but only injury prone. KW bought low on Quentin moreso than he sold high on Carter, IMO.

De Los Santos wasn't really the centerpiece to the Swisher theft by Oakland; Gio Gonzalez was for the 1st Swisher trade, and Oakland extracted a lot more for Swisher than KW did from the yankees. Had you used Gonzalez as an example, I might have agreed with you.

Freddy finished with a >4.5 ERA in his last year here, if memory serves. Like in the Quentin deal, KW bought low on Floyd moreso than selling Freddy at the peak of his value.

And Rowand was deemed expendable moreso than his value having peaked when he was traded, IMO.

doublem23
05-11-2011, 10:52 AM
I don't disagree that he sold high on McCarthy. I'm merely observing that the haul he got in return was moreso due to Texas losing their minds.

Of course. :rolleyes:

You're always right when you make up your own facts!

khan
05-11-2011, 11:03 AM
Of course. :rolleyes:

You're always right when you make up your own facts!
:scratch:

Exactly what did I "make up?"

In looking at my initial statement re: McCarthy:

"If memory serves, didn't Texas make the offer of Danks/Masset/minor league fodder for McCarthy, and not the other way around?

If this is so, even with McCarthy, it wasn't KW "selling high" so much as Texas losing their ****ing minds."

As I read it, I qualified my statement as saying that I'm relying on a now-5 year old memory, which may be faulty. I also did not dismiss "selling high" as a factor, but subordinated it to Texas suffering from irrational exhuberance.

Exactly what facts did I "make up?"

Nelfox02
05-11-2011, 12:30 PM
I don't necessarily think that is the case. A lot of us are unhappy with the current direction of the team and would be willing to bite the bullet for a few years to see if management can shift gears and build from within. If I'm wrong then at least I know I would.


Well, there would be at least 2 of us, I would support a full on rebuild (and the growing pains that come with it).....but I dont think I want the current regime at the head of it.