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Viva Medias B's
05-06-2011, 09:07 AM
I'm surprised this has not been posted yet, and a search under "Williams" came up empty. In today's Sun-Times, Kenny Williams said in a piece written by Joe Cowley that there are no plans to replace any coaches.

Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/5208885-419/gm-ken-williams-denies-white-sox-coach-cutting-rumors.html)

soltrain21
05-06-2011, 09:11 AM
That's a good idea, Ozzie. To say you don't trust Jerry Reinsdorf to the media.

I wish he'd stop talking.

Scottiehaswheels
05-06-2011, 09:11 AM
I am at a loss for words. **** this team then.

Viva Medias B's
05-06-2011, 09:21 AM
Just as Emperor Nero played his fiddle as Rome burned, KW and JR are doing the same thing.

moochpuppy
05-06-2011, 09:24 AM
Somebody has to pay for this start and I thought for sure it would have been Walker.

Nothing like getting the offense back on track against King Felix tonight. :(:

kufram
05-06-2011, 09:35 AM
It was never going to happen at this point.

Rocky Soprano
05-06-2011, 09:36 AM
That's a good idea, Ozzie. To say you don't trust Jerry Reinsdorf to the media.

I wish he'd stop talking.

I wish he'd just go away.

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 09:37 AM
It is frustrating they didn't make a change already (such as firing Walker after 2006), but I don't really know what comments we could hope for at this point. If the GM says he isn't going to fire the manager we look at it as the "dreaded vote of confidence." Regardless, no GM would come out and say, "yeah, I probably am going to fire everyone if we don't win at least 5 games on the road trip" so we can't really take anything from this article.

Still, it had an interesting quote from Kenny when he fired Von Joshua:

Im not going to sit around and watch this team underachieve all year. Im sick and tired of it. Its beyond the time to put up or shut up.

So... what has changed, Kenny? You weren't going to watch that team underacheive all year (even though the best hitter was out), but we are seemingly giving this offense a chance to underachieve all year, just as they did last year and the year before that and the year before that and the year before that and the final three months of the year before that? I don't know, maybe he is more patient in his old age.

soxfanatlanta
05-06-2011, 09:59 AM
Nothing to see here.

Nothing to be done.

VenturaFan23
05-06-2011, 10:03 AM
http://www.baseballprospectus.com/card/images/headshot_30370.jpg

"Haha, thanks again Kenny. I love my job!"

tstrike2000
05-06-2011, 10:04 AM
No shock or surprise.

Rocky Soprano
05-06-2011, 10:05 AM
So... what has changed, Kenny? You weren't going to watch that team underacheive all year (even though the best hitter was out), but we are seemingly giving this offense a chance to underachieve all year, just as they did last year and the year before that and the year before that and the year before that and the final three months of the year before that? I don't know, maybe he is more patient in his old age.

Kenny is all bark and no bite.
He loves to appear and sound like a tough guy yet his actions say a completely different thing.

Domeshot17
05-06-2011, 10:06 AM
I don't know how anyone can question this. Ozzie and Kenny and Greg Walker and Rowand and Politte and Hermanson and Willie Harris and Shingo and Widger and Cotts and Timo and El Duque and Frank Thomas and Crazy Carl won a title in 2005!!!!!!

SI1020
05-06-2011, 10:10 AM
Kenny is all bark and no bite.
He loves to appear and sound like a tough guy yet his actions say a completely different thing. Ozzie is the same way. The personal styles are different, but they both talk a good game and don't follow through.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-06-2011, 10:10 AM
Kenny is all bark and no bite.
He loves to appear and sound like a tough guy yet his actions say a completely different thing.

Are you trying to get into White Sox business?

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 10:20 AM
I don't know how anyone can question this. Ozzie and Kenny and Greg Walker and Rowand and Politte and Hermanson and Willie Harris and Shingo and Widger and Cotts and Timo and El Duque and Frank Thomas and Crazy Carl won a title in 2005!!!!!!1) Not funny or relevant;
2) Nobody has ever said that;
3) It's been done a few days ago, in an even more trollish fashion.

Soxfest
05-06-2011, 11:27 AM
Enjoy the 8,000 fans that show up on summer days, KW you keep the whole band together. JR is loyal to the extreme.:angry:

russ99
05-06-2011, 11:29 AM
I don't know how anyone can question this. Ozzie and Kenny and Greg Walker and Rowand and Politte and Hermanson and Willie Harris and Shingo and Widger and Cotts and Timo and El Duque and Frank Thomas and Crazy Carl won a title in 2005!!!!!!

Please. Enough of this garbage.

Everyone is questioning this.

tstrike2000
05-06-2011, 11:38 AM
i don't know how anyone can question this. Ozzie and kenny and greg walker and rowand and politte and hermanson and willie harris and shingo and widger and cotts and timo and el duque and frank thomas and crazy carl won a title in 2005!!!!!!

sssssssssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

Domeshot17
05-06-2011, 12:01 PM
1) Not funny or relevant;
2) Nobody has ever said that;
3) It's been done a few days ago, in an even more trollish fashion.

Well, in all fairness, I am in Arizona for my college graduation, so I haven't been on WSI much the last week. And yes, over the past 2 years, plenty of posters here give Ozzie/Kenny a full vote of confidence because they won a title in 2005.

kittle42
05-06-2011, 12:02 PM
Christ. We may be getting to the point where I actually would rather this team lose just to get rid of all these clowns.

beasly213
05-06-2011, 12:04 PM
Doesn't history in sports show us that the "Vote of Confidence" generally lead to an eventual firing anyway?

jdm2662
05-06-2011, 12:14 PM
Doesn't history in sports show us that the "Vote of Confidence" generally lead to an eventual firing anyway?

Yes.

Kenny Williams also has a history of talking out of his ass, too.

JB98
05-06-2011, 12:38 PM
That article is meaningless.

If they continue to play like ****, changes could happen at any time.

captain54
05-06-2011, 12:58 PM
That article is meaningless.

If they continue to play like ****, changes could happen at any time.

Yes, I agree completely.... the GM has always come across as more or less an arrogant know-it-all, so admitting that changes are coming are like admitting that he guessed wrong.

I always contended, and still do contend, that a lot of what Kenny Williams does is directed by Reinsdorf. Really, really hard for me to
believe that JR has the "hands off" approach when it comes to hiring and firing.

Fenway
05-06-2011, 01:14 PM
Gammons on WEEI say he has heard Ken Macha has been approached by the White Sox...

SI1020
05-06-2011, 01:49 PM
Gammons on WEEI say he has heard Ken Macha has been approached by the White Sox... Approached by whom? Kenny?

miker
05-06-2011, 01:53 PM
Approached by whom? Kenny?

The players...

Fenway
05-06-2011, 01:58 PM
Approached by whom? Kenny?

He didn't mention Kenny by name...he did say that JR is very worried about the season.

Macha may well be the best available option...Francona loves him ( he was Ken's bench coach in Oakland in 2003 )

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-06-2011, 02:08 PM
He didn't mention Kenny by name...he did say that JR is very worried about the season.

Macha may well be the best available option...Francona loves him ( he was Ken's bench coach in Oakland in 2003 )

He better be...he's watching millions of dollars being flushed down the toilet because of badly-managed, badly-played baseball. At some point, loyalty has to take a backseat to the bottom line, and that time is very likely near...he didn't take that much of a risk just to watch Kenny and (mainly) Ozzie piss it away.

soxfanatlanta
05-06-2011, 02:17 PM
The players...


Well played, sir.

TDog
05-06-2011, 02:19 PM
Enjoy the 8,000 fans that show up on summer days, KW you keep the whole band together. JR is loyal to the extreme.:angry:

Will firing coaches increase attendance?

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-06-2011, 02:24 PM
Will firing coaches increase attendance?

Not directly, but if the incoming staff makes changes and the players play better as a result, well...you do the math.

PaleHoser
05-06-2011, 02:28 PM
Will firing coaches increase attendance?

Not for me. They don't have to win every game, but to actually show up and compete. At that point, I'd be willing to actually pay to watch them again.

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Not for me. They don't have to win every game, but to actually show up and compete. At that point, I'd be willing to actually pay to watch them again.Yeah, this Walkerian garabage we have seen of late is barely watchable. I mean, was still watching at the end of 2007, but this is almost more than I can take.

Jerko
05-06-2011, 02:35 PM
I don't think firing coaches will increase attendance.

I do think doing nothing will decrease attendance.

miker
05-06-2011, 02:38 PM
I don't think firing coaches will increase attendance.

I do think doing nothing will decrease attendance.

I've been away awhile...is the "attendance thread ban" still in place?

Lip Man 1
05-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Passed along Gammons comment to some media folks. I thought they'd want to follow up just in case something is starting to go down. Here is one response.

Take it for what it may be worth.

"He would be a disaster. HATED by players. Among them Kotsay, Dye, Braun, Fielder, Zito, etc.

Was a spy for Dick Williams in Montreal, was told that by a HOF writer.

In fairness to Macha, Billy Beane did some things to him that were disgusting and undermined his ability to run a team/game."

Lip

Scottiehaswheels
05-06-2011, 02:47 PM
Have Hawk take over managing to get him out of the booth! :D:

Jerko
05-06-2011, 02:47 PM
I've been away awhile...is the "attendance thread ban" still in place?

I think so, but this talk is stemming from Sox managment pre-emptively "blaming" fans for a possible future fire sale/youth movement if we don't show up at games.

kittle42
05-06-2011, 02:48 PM
Will firing coaches increase attendance?

If they axed Ozzie on this road trip, I'd go to the first game back.

Paulwny
05-06-2011, 02:49 PM
Passed along Gammons comment to some media folks. I thought they'd want to follow up just in case something is starting to go down. Here is one response.

Take it for what it may be worth.

"He would be a disaster. HATED by players. Among them Kotsay, Dye, Braun, Fielder, Zito, etc.

Was a spy for Dick Williams in Montreal, was told that by a HOF writer.

In fairness to Macha, Billy Beane did some things to him that were disgusting and undermined his ability to run a team/game."

Lip




http://www.bucsdugout.com/2010/10/13/1749323/managerial-candidates-ken-macha

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 02:51 PM
Passed along Gammons comment to some media folks. I thought they'd want to follow up just in case something is starting to go down. Here is one response.

Take it for what it may be worth.

"He would be a disaster. HATED by players. Among them Kotsay, Dye, Braun, Fielder, Zito, etc.

Was a spy for Dick Williams in Montreal, was told that by a HOF writer.

In fairness to Macha, Billy Beane did some things to him that were disgusting and undermined his ability to run a team/game."

Lip

If it was just for this year I wouldn't mind Macha. However, I would hope he is brought in strictly on an interim basis. If Macha wasn't able to salvage the season, hopefully the new GM would be able to choose a new manager next year.

miker
05-06-2011, 02:52 PM
I think so, but this talk is stemming from Sox managment pre-emptively "blaming" fans for a possible future fire sale/youth movement if we don't show up at games.

Damned if we do, damned if we don't...

TDog
05-06-2011, 02:53 PM
Not directly, but if the incoming staff makes changes and the players play better as a result, well...you do the math.

I have done the math. Sox fans are so busy looking for excuses not to go to games that signing Dunn didn't appreciably increase attendance.

In theory, signing Dunn leads to the Sox winning more games which leads to more people coming to games (although the ones who buy tickets from Stub Hub aren't increasing attendance because they are buying tickets the team has already sold).

In practice, Adam Dunn at DH is only producing marginally more than Mark Kotsay was at this point last year. For whatever reason, it isn't because Greg Walker taught him how to hit. It isn't because Ozzie Guillen told him to bunt. Fans were excited about signing Dunn. They thought the Sox would win more games, but they decided to wait and see before buying tickets.

If fans pledged, in a binding way, to buy out every game if someone other than Ozzie Guillen were managing or Greg Walker were coaching hitting, your math might work. The fact is that you don't know if Dunn will start hitting because he can get instruction from a new coach or whether he was going to adjust to the American League and the DH role anyway. (I assume he will eventually hit.)

You don't know if the team would play better under a different manager. You don't know what changes, if any, would be made. It's possible the Sox hitters might even bunt more. In any case, fans would wait and see before coming to the games. It would take a run like last summer's to increase attendance, and that would be as likely under Guillen as it would under his replacement. The most likely scenario is that the Sox won't be much above their season-ticket base whether they arbitrarily and capriciously punish non-player or not.

I have done the math, in general terms, in my head. And I believe the potential financial rewards of firing the manager and coaches are exaggerated by people who want them punished because the team isn't as good as they thought it would be when they were waiting to see if they would be good enough to buy tickets.

Fenway
05-06-2011, 02:56 PM
The Red Sox hired Macha and had him on NESN after he left Oakland in the event Francona's health prevented him from managing.


Maybe they have contacted him for the bench coach role - to make Ozzie squirm a little


The big problem is you can't fire a manager unless you have Plan B set.... Duquette made that mistake when he fired Jimy Williams thinking he had Felipe Alou set to go but it fell apart and he was stuck with Joe Kerrigan. Kerrigan was fired 30 seconds after John Henry took control of the team, Duquette a week later.


Passed along Gammons comment to some media folks. I thought they'd want to follow up just in case something is starting to go down. Here is one response.

Take it for what it may be worth.

"He would be a disaster. HATED by players. Among them Kotsay, Dye, Braun, Fielder, Zito, etc.

Was a spy for Dick Williams in Montreal, was told that by a HOF writer.

In fairness to Macha, Billy Beane did some things to him that were disgusting and undermined his ability to run a team/game."

Lip

Nellie_Fox
05-06-2011, 02:58 PM
I've been away awhile...is the "attendance thread ban" still in place?
Yes. It is aimed primarily at fans criticizing other fans for not going to enough games and/or comparing Sox attendance to Cubs attendance. A passing mention of the possible effect of management decisions on attendance was not meant to be precluded.

dickallen15
05-06-2011, 03:00 PM
The problem is JR is almost guaranteed right now not to turn a huge profit. Attendance has been weak and rightfully so. If this roadtrip is bad, a quarter of the season is over and even if they play great the next 25%, their record will be average at best with half the season over and the empty seats aren't going to fill.

Many have already given up on the Sox. Attendance is almost guaranteed to drop from last year's totals right now no matter what happens the rest of the year. People forget, in 2007 the Sox had one of the better records in Sept. Late August, they still were in contention for the #1 draft pick. Anything that has virtually no shot at the playoffs isn't going to draw in September, so JR's people can have nothing but grim projections at this point.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-06-2011, 03:07 PM
IF the team rebounds under Guillen: I think the fans will remain indifferent until the team gets to at least .500. Depending on the standings, it may take even longer.

IF the team rebounds under someone else: I think fans will jump onboard sooner just because it's not the same old story and there have been plenty of cases in baseball history where managerial changes have sparked the team. Sox fans WANT to believe and a rebound under new management would be a hot story and would create excitement.

russ99
05-06-2011, 03:13 PM
Not for me. They don't have to win every game, but to actually show up and compete. At that point, I'd be willing to actually pay to watch them again.

They did so on Monday night, so it's not out of the question that they can turn this around.

Christ. We may be getting to the point where I actually would rather this team lose just to get rid of all these clowns.

As would I, but the clowns I'd like to see this team lose are the bandwagon fans, those with unrealistic expectations and those who whine about every little thing that goes wrong.

If the Sox tank and JR has to fire the staff, hold a fire sale and then rebuild, those people will find other things to do, and we can enjoy baseball without all this endless angst.

kittle42
05-06-2011, 03:19 PM
But what is his education?

It was funny, but you're really beating this one into the ground.

doublem23
05-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Approached by whom? Kenny?

Sales rep. Seeing if he has any interest in prorated season tickets. They must be going through the front office Rolodex now.

kobo
05-06-2011, 03:32 PM
I have done the math. Sox fans are so busy looking for excuses not to go to games that signing Dunn didn't appreciably increase attendance.

In theory, signing Dunn leads to the Sox winning more games which leads to more people coming to games (although the ones who buy tickets from Stub Hub aren't increasing attendance because they are buying tickets the team has already sold).

In practice, Adam Dunn at DH is only producing marginally more than Mark Kotsay was at this point last year. For whatever reason, it isn't because Greg Walker taught him how to hit. It isn't because Ozzie Guillen told him to bunt. Fans were excited about signing Dunn. They thought the Sox would win more games, but they decided to wait and see before buying tickets.

If fans pledged, in a binding way, to buy out every game if someone other than Ozzie Guillen were managing or Greg Walker were coaching hitting, your math might work. The fact is that you don't know if Dunn will start hitting because he can get instruction from a new coach or whether he was going to adjust to the American League and the DH role anyway. (I assume he will eventually hit.)

You don't know if the team would play better under a different manager. You don't know what changes, if any, would be made. It's possible the Sox hitters might even bunt more. In any case, fans would wait and see before coming to the games. It would take a run like last summer's to increase attendance, and that would be as likely under Guillen as it would under his replacement. The most likely scenario is that the Sox won't be much above their season-ticket base whether they arbitrarily and capriciously punish non-player or not.

I have done the math, in general terms, in my head. And I believe the potential financial rewards of firing the manager and coaches are exaggerated by people who want them punished because the team isn't as good as they thought it would be when they were waiting to see if they would be good enough to buy tickets.
You really need to stop focusing on Adam Dunn. We get it, you didn't like the move when it was made and still don't. However, Adam Dunn is only one part of the problem. One part of many problems this team has right now, but to continue to rag on one player is completely ridiculous.

What I take issue with, however, is the bold part of your post. I don't need an excuse to not attend games. I'm unemployed and have limited resources so there's my excuse. But if I did have money and was able to attend games I wouldn't due to the way the team has started yet again. I am not going to speak for anyone else, but I am tired of watching the same thing happen at the beginning of every season. I'm tired of Guillen and his antics and his mouth. I'm tired of having all hope of a new season completely vanquished one month into the season. I wanted to try and get out to a couple games this summer, but like many others I wanted to see how the team would start the season. There is nothing wrong with that considering the way the team has started the last few years. But it's the same **** yet again, and I simply don't need to spend time or energy watching this crap or spending whatever little money I may have on this team.

Bringing in Adam Dunn did actually make me feel good about the prospect of this season. I would have bought a 13 or 27 game plan if I had money in the off season because that was how excited I was for the season. The Dunn move hasn't worked out, but nothing has worked out for this team.

dickallen15
05-06-2011, 03:39 PM
One thing is for sure, Ken Macha isn't going to get Sox fans to the ticket window.

JB98
05-06-2011, 03:43 PM
One thing is for sure, Ken Macha isn't going to get Sox fans to the ticket window.

Hell no. Only one thing will get Sox fans to the ticket window and that's winning.

People are not going to pay money they don't have to watch Walkerball, Part VI, Saga of Doom.

Especially since they already know how Walkerball, Parts I-V ended.

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 03:48 PM
Hell no. Only one thing will get Sox fans to the ticket window and that's winning.

People are not going to pay money they don't have to watch Walkerball, Part VI, Saga of Doom.

Especially since they already know how Walkerball, Parts I-V ended.Well, Walker is certainly the one who should be fired before anyone else, but I am not so sure he would leave with Ozzie. In the event of a nuclear war, cockroaches would survive and Greg Walker would still be the hitting coach. It's like a bad horror movie. Walker's coaching career just won't die.

tstrike2000
05-06-2011, 03:51 PM
Well, Walker is certainly the one who should be fired before anyone else, but I am not so sure he would leave with Ozzie. In the event of a nuclear war, cockroaches would survive and Greg Walker would still be the hitting coach. It's like a bad horror movie. Walker's coaching career just won't die.

Totally deja vu on that nuclear war comment. When the Sox stunk it up last April we talked about Walker surviving a nuclear bomb if it hit the Sox dugout during a game because that's how it is.

VenturaFan23
05-06-2011, 03:56 PM
Well, Walker is certainly the one who should be fired before anyone else, but I am not so sure he would leave with Ozzie. In the event of a nuclear war, cockroaches would survive and Greg Walker would still be the hitting coach. It's like a bad horror movie. Walker's coaching career just won't die.

Totally deja vu on that nuclear war comment. When the Sox stunk it up last April we talked about Walker surviving a nuclear bomb if it hit the Sox dugout during a game because that's how it is.

:rolling: So true!

VenturaFan23
05-06-2011, 04:00 PM
Hell no. Only one thing will get Sox fans to the ticket window and that's winning.

People are not going to pay money they don't have to watch Walkerball, Part VI, Saga of Doom.

Especially since they already know how Walkerball, Parts I-V ended.

Is it Part VI? If so, I have to change my sig. I'm counting from 2007 on. I'm giving him half a pass on 2006.

Soxfest
05-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Will firing coaches increase attendance?

It shows there is an effort being made.

JB98
05-06-2011, 04:03 PM
Is it Part VI? If so, I have to change my sig. I'm counting from 2007 on. I'm giving him half a pass on 2006.

It's your sig. You can do whatever you like with it.

Rocky Soprano
05-06-2011, 04:05 PM
One thing is for sure, Ken Macha isn't going to get Sox fans to the ticket window.

Is Ozzie getting Sox fans to the ticket window?

Soxfest
05-06-2011, 04:07 PM
Is Ozzie getting Sox fans to the ticket window?
I do not know one person who ever went to see Guillen manage ever!

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 04:09 PM
Is it Part VI? If so, I have to change my sig. I'm counting from 2007 on. I'm giving him half a pass on 2006.I would say this is part VI, seeing as Walkerballing to the likes of John Rheineker and Julian Tavarez making an emergency start certainly killed the 2006 season.

TDog
05-06-2011, 04:17 PM
You really need to stop focusing on Adam Dunn. We get it, you didn't like the move when it was made and still don't. However, Adam Dunn is only one part of the problem. One part of many problems this team has right now, but to continue to rag on one player is completely ridiculous.

What I take issue with, however, is the bold part of your post. I don't need an excuse to not attend games. I'm unemployed and have limited resources so there's my excuse. But if I did have money and was able to attend games I wouldn't due to the way the team has started yet again. I am not going to speak for anyone else, but I am tired of watching the same thing happen at the beginning of every season. I'm tired of Guillen and his antics and his mouth. I'm tired of having all hope of a new season completely vanquished one month into the season. I wanted to try and get out to a couple games this summer, but like many others I wanted to see how the team would start the season. There is nothing wrong with that considering the way the team has started the last few years. But it's the same **** yet again, and I simply don't need to spend time or energy watching this crap or spending whatever little money I may have on this team.

Bringing in Adam Dunn did actually make me feel good about the prospect of this season. I would have bought a 13 or 27 game plan if I had money in the off season because that was how excited I was for the season. The Dunn move hasn't worked out, but nothing has worked out for this team.


If the Sox fire Guillen and/or Walker, you won't be going to more games either, so you are irrelevant for the purposes of the argument that attendance will increase. I wasn't suggesting you are looking for an excuse not to attend games. Unfortunately, that characterizes too many who number in the Chicago-area fan base.

As for blame, last year when the White Sox weren't winning, people had no problem focusing on Mark Kotsay. Focusing on Dunn this season is more appropriate than focusing on Kotsay because of Dunn's position in the lineup and his salary.

Dunn isn't the only problem, but it is the most severe. It is more severe than the bullpen problems, which, really haven't been a big issue in losing games since the White Sox were pretty close to a .500 team. It may be only a coincidence, but the hitting dropped off this season when Dunn returned to the lineup.

Rios has been an issue, although no one saw it coming because he had such a great spring. If Dunn, Rios and Thornton had done as well as expected, the White Sox would have a winning record right now. You might be able to interchange Pierre for Thornton because his defense was a big factor in Thornton's problems. Konerko and Quentin actually have been hitting well for the most part. Ramirez is hitting much better than he has in past Aprils.

Maybe people focusing on the coaching staff should focus more on Dunn instead. It isn't like you could make an argument that he was a prospect who came up and was ruined by the coaching staff. Dunn chose to come to the White Sox and play for Guillen (from a losing team in the National League), it isn't like you can argue that Dunn has lost interest in doing what he's done in the past because he's playing for a loser for a manager he doesn't want to play for.

Dunn is failing. He is hitting only .150 with runners in scoring position. Guillen and Walker are being blamed while Dunn's is fail. I think I have the better argument.

MtGrnwdSoxFan
05-06-2011, 04:24 PM
I have done the math. Sox fans are so busy looking for excuses not to go to games that signing Dunn didn't appreciably increase attendance.

Speak for yourself. I'm making barely enough to scratch by right now, and I STILL found time and money to go to a Sox game...back when they showed, and I determined, that they were worth spending money on.

You don't know what the hell is going on with people's financial scenarios. With the way this team has performed, even if I had the money, I don't want to spend it to see a fundamentally-flawed team underachieve with a stubborn, mouthy, polarizing manager who has proven, outside of 2005, that he is a well-below-average in-game manager. Who wants to spend money (lots of it, mind you) on that?

kittle42
05-06-2011, 04:25 PM
Dunn is failing. He is hitting only .150 with runners in scoring position. Guillen and Walker are being blamed while Dunn's is fail. I think I have the better argument.

Fire Adam Dunn!

Getting rid of the coaches, in your opinion, will do nothing to raise attendance. Would trading Adam Dunn?

kittle42
05-06-2011, 04:26 PM
I wasn't suggesting you are looking for an excuse not to attend games. Unfortunately, that characterizes too many who number in the Chicago-area fan base.

Upon what are you basing this? Because I say it's a load of horse****.

MarySwiss
05-06-2011, 04:40 PM
Speak for yourself. I'm making barely enough to scratch by right now, and I STILL found time and money to go to a Sox game...back when they showed, and I determined, that they were worth spending money on.

You don't know what the hell is going on with people's financial scenarios. With the way this team has performed, even if I had the money, I don't want to spend it to see a fundamentally-flawed team underachieve with a stubborn, mouthy, polarizing manager who has proven, outside of 2005, that he is a well-below-average in-game manager. Who wants to spend money (lots of it, mind you) on that?
This. Before the slide began, I couldn't wait to buy some really good seats to the Sox/D'Backs series, and they would not have been cheap. But unless they pull together some kind of amazing win streak, I'll find other ways to spend my money. And it really pisses me off because I know it'll be awhile before they're back out in Arizona (for other than ST). :angry:

JermaineDye05
05-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Ozzie's gonna have to quit or his contract is gonna have to run out. Given their relationship which has been highly publicized, I doubt Jerry will fire him.

CWSpalehoseCWS
05-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Wow. If this is true, I really hope this team gets no-hit again, and again, and again until Walker is canned. Absolutely ridiculous. Clearly this organization has no guts or wants to hold anyone accountable.

tstrike2000
05-06-2011, 04:54 PM
It was funny, but you're really beating this one into the ground.

Not half as much as some other subjects are around here. Point is, if Macha has that checkered of a past, we don't need or want him here anyway. Also, if they're going to go with the same trend of managers that they've had in the past, no thanks.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-06-2011, 05:15 PM
This. Before the slide began, I couldn't wait to buy some really good seats to the Sox/D'Backs series, and they would not have been cheap. But unless they pull together some kind of amazing win streak, I'll find other ways to spend my money. And it really pisses me off because I know it'll be awhile before they're back out in Arizona (for other than ST). :angry:

I feel the exact same way about their trip down here to Texas.

BainesHOF
05-06-2011, 05:28 PM
I'm at a loss as to why no changes have been made. What else has to happen before changes are made? We're the worst team in baseball. Do something already! This B.S. wouldn't be tolerated by many other organizations. Anyone who watches the team regularly knows how bad things are and how far it is from improving. Ozzie has clearly run his course. Things won't change to any serious extent until serious changes are made. To think we're going to suddenly play fundamental, winning baseball is laughable. To think Walker is suddenly going to fix Beckham's swing defies logic. To think Cooper is suddenly going to demand his pitchers hold runners close to first base is true fantasy baseball. To think any current coach or player is going to straighten out A.J.'s lackluster attitude is dreaming.

Sure, some players such as Dunn and Rios will start producing numbers closer to their career averages, but this team will continue to underachieve under Ozzie like it has in past seasons. I've been a big fan of Kenny. He's far from perfect, but he's been pretty aggressive in his tenure. But I'm really ticked at him for not doing a damn thing up to this point. It's obvious Ozzie and his coaches are not getting the job done. If Kenny doesn't think they need to go, then Kenny needs to go, too. To keep Ozzie and his mouth for the rest of the season is asking for trouble. The team will only continue to spin further out of control.

Lip Man 1
05-06-2011, 05:40 PM
Baines:

It's possible no changes have been made yet because it's "only" May 6th but perhaps it's because the Sox certainly couldn't have expected this and may be at a loss right now of what they can do.

Now you can argue that maybe they should have had a 'worst-case' disaster plan but these things take some time to sort through, you can't just do a knee-jerk reaction.

For what it's worth I think it's more the second possibility, I've heard some things that make me think right now even JR is at something of a loss as to how to get out of this.

Lip

DickAllen72
05-06-2011, 05:56 PM
I don't believe KW is allowed to fire Walker.

Remember a few years ago when Ozzie made the comment that something has to change be it the players, the manager or the hitting coach? Walker immediately went crying straight to JR and Ozzie had to declare in public that he didn't mean to blame Walker (which he didn't anyway) and that his job is safe.

JR runs the Sox organization that way.

KW should at least have the right to put his own coaches in place to try to salvage the season with the roster he put on the field, but I doubt he has final say. If he did, then he could be held accountable at the end of the year. But if because JR insisted on picking up Ozzie's option he now won't let KW fire him or any of his staff, it would be unfair to hold KW accountable for this train wreck.

GlassSox
05-06-2011, 06:07 PM
Baines:

It's possible no changes have been made yet because it's "only" May 6th but perhaps it's because the Sox certainly couldn't have expected this and may be at a loss right now of what they can do.

Now you can argue that maybe they should have had a 'worst-case' disaster plan but these things take some time to sort through, you can't just do a knee-jerk reaction.

For what it's worth I think it's more the second possibility, I've heard some things that make me think right now even JR is at something of a loss as to how to get out of this.

Lip

Lip,

I cannot imagine that anyone could have imagined this fiasco. I have been involved with developing many business response plans and the 1st thing that you have to identify is the "risk".

Like many others, I am very disappointed in the team's performance but I will continue to attend games but probably not as many as I had planned to.

I have to believe that there are organizational changes being considered. This is business and this is large money so I think something will change. The change may not make us happy but they have to change something.

In manufacturing there is re-engineering which primarily turns into organizational changes not capital investment.

I am disappointed not to hear more from Kenny. Does he think this is self healing? I doubt that it is.

Glass

ShooterMcGavin
05-06-2011, 06:33 PM
I will buy more tickets and attend more games this season if the Sox fire Guillen.

I will not buy a single ticket this season with Guillen as manager.

BainesHOF
05-06-2011, 07:23 PM
I don't believe KW is allowed to fire Walker.

Remember a few years ago when Ozzie made the comment that something has to change be it the players, the manager or the hitting coach? Walker immediately went crying straight to JR and Ozzie had to declare in public that he didn't mean to blame Walker (which he didn't anyway) and that his job is safe.

JR runs the Sox organization that way.

KW should at least have the right to put his own coaches in place to try to salvage the season with the roster he put on the field, but I doubt he has final say. If he did, then he could be held accountable at the end of the year. But if because JR insisted on picking up Ozzie's option he now won't let KW fire him or any of his staff, it would be unfair to hold KW accountable for this train wreck.

All excellent points.

Even if you assume for the sake of argument that Kenny has free reign to hire and fire who he wants and when he wants, Reinsdorf is still his boss. Ultimately, Reinsdorf is the person most accountable for this mess. I don't blame the Chairman for where we're at now. He ponied up the big bucks this season. However, I blame him for allowing the B.S. to continue on the field on a daily basis without making any changes. The organization is operating like it has a death wish.

dickallen15
05-06-2011, 07:56 PM
Baines:

It's possible no changes have been made yet because it's "only" May 6th but perhaps it's because the Sox certainly couldn't have expected this and may be at a loss right now of what they can do.

Now you can argue that maybe they should have had a 'worst-case' disaster plan but these things take some time to sort through, you can't just do a knee-jerk reaction.

For what it's worth I think it's more the second possibility, I've heard some things that make me think right now even JR is at something of a loss as to how to get out of this.

Lip

The White Sox fired Gene Lamont after 31 games in 1995 after winning the divison in 1993 and leading in 1994 when the strike hit. They were 11-20.
Maybe that's a reason they don't make a move. If its just a little jolt, its not worth it. If the Sox don't make the playoffs, I think they may trade Ozzie to the Marlins in the winter.

Viva Medias B's
05-06-2011, 08:26 PM
Have Hawk take over managing to get him out of the booth! :D:

Imagine the first game with Joe West on the field.

A. Cavatica
05-06-2011, 09:22 PM
I do not know one person who ever went to see Guillen manage ever!

What? I heard from Ozzie that he's the face of the White Sox!

A. Cavatica
05-06-2011, 09:26 PM
I cannot imagine that anyone could have imagined this fiasco.

Your imagination is not very good.

http://www.whitesoxinteractive.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=124998&highlight=contingency+plan

Hartman
05-06-2011, 09:29 PM
Typically when an organization says no changes will be made....

...2 weeks later, changes are made.

Tragg
05-06-2011, 09:58 PM
Firing Walker or any coach at this point would be cynical.
I think Beckham and Sale might be better served in AA or AAA right now so that they don't get wasted in desperation by Guillen and his staff.

TheOldRoman
05-06-2011, 10:25 PM
I don't believe KW is allowed to fire Walker.

Remember a few years ago when Ozzie made the comment that something has to change be it the players, the manager or the hitting coach? Walker immediately went crying straight to JR and Ozzie had to declare in public that he didn't mean to blame Walker (which he didn't anyway) and that his job is safe.That is mostly true, but Ozzie has authority over his coaches. It was part of the extension he received in 2007. I remember the situation you are talking about (after the Sox lost 3 or 4 in TB in 2008 while getting excellent pitching and scoring something like 6 runs all series). Ozzie said that maybe Kenny needed to fire Walker if the hitters didn't start hitting. I interpreted that at the time to mean that Ozzie was asking for Kenny to fire Walker, maybe I was wrong. Anyway, Kenny said something to the effect of "Ozzie has the authority so he can fire Walker if he wants." I don't know if Ozzie ever actually planned to fire Walker himself, but you are correct that Walker went crying to Reinsdorf who said "Ozzie, you be nice to Greg." Also, last year Reinsdorf said that if Kenny ever came to him and asked if he could fire Ozzie he would give approval, so who knows what would happen if push came to shove.

Nellie_Fox
05-06-2011, 11:53 PM
Wow. If this is true, I really hope this team gets no-hit again, and again, and again until Walker is canned. I've never understood this attitude. Are you really so focused on your hatred for a coach that you'd rather the Sox NOT come out of this, just so Walker can get fired?

Domeshot17
05-07-2011, 12:06 AM
They did so on Monday night, so it's not out of the question that they can turn this around.



As would I, but the clowns I'd like to see this team lose are the bandwagon fans, those with unrealistic expectations and those who whine about every little thing that goes wrong.

If the Sox tank and JR has to fire the staff, hold a fire sale and then rebuild, those people will find other things to do, and we can enjoy baseball without all this endless angst.

Yup, you got it buddy. If we don't worship the ground Ozzie walks on we are bandwagon fans.

You know what I would like to see, fans who aren't happy with 1 world title in their lifetime. fans who expect more out of players and managers. Fans who expect a team with a top 10 payroll and resources like we have to produce like a top 10 payroll team. Fans who expect us to not be incompetent in the draft, and fans who don't think an 83 win season is a success.

For some people, Sports are about the competition, the ability to WIN. For some people, they don't measure success as having 1 more world title than the Cubs in the last 75 years.

I love the White Sox, I would never let any team but them upset me the way they do. But this is going to cost us. If John Danks walks because he is tired of pitching like an all star and getting no support, it costs us. More and more free agents continue to shy away from signing here unless we offer top dollar money like Dunn.

I am tired of every time ESPN or another sporting/baseball publication runs a survey of MLB players, OUR MANAGER is always the number 1 manager a player does not want to play for.

I am tired of seeing players who have quit on their manager and listening to Ozzie alter between OH NO I AM FIRED UP AND ROARING MAD SO I WILL FLIP OUT AND SWEAR A LOT and... I don't care, we can lose, I can be fired,I was fired by the White Sox before, I will go take my 2 million dollars and sit on a boat and go fishing with Manny Ramirez.

This is not 2005. This team has far too much talent to not be winning. The players are not playing for this staff, and its simply time for changes to be made. You can't rebuild with Ozzie as a manager because he has consistently proven he can't develop a prospect. But you can find a decent veteran manager who can manage this club better and try and turn it around.

PalehosePlanet
05-07-2011, 12:16 AM
This is not 2005. This team has far too much talent to not be winning. The players are not playing for this staff, and its simply time for changes to be made. You can't rebuild with Ozzie as a manager because he has consistently proven he can't develop a prospect. But you can find a decent veteran manager who can manage this club better and try and turn it around.

Thank you, I've been advocating this for two weeks.

Also, people need to realize that managers that have won the world series have been fired many times throughout the years. A WS win does not assure a manager a job for life.

thomas35forever
05-07-2011, 12:28 AM
I will buy more tickets and attend more games this season if the Sox fire Guillen.

I will not buy a single ticket this season with Guillen as manager.
See you next season then. I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think just for the sake of Ozzie getting his full contract for doing his job, he's going to stay at least till the end of the year. I don't know if I can say the same about the rest of the coaches though.

CWSpalehoseCWS
05-07-2011, 02:24 AM
I've never understood this attitude. Are you really so focused on your hatred for a coach that you'd rather the Sox NOT come out of this, just so Walker can get fired?

Do I want the Sox to fail? No. I still have 9 more games to go to this year, and I'll attend every one, and hope this team somehow wins. I will never stop calling myself a fan, or blow the team off. Hell, I don't even boo the team when they do this bad and I'm at the games. I love baseball and the Sox. But I've grown tired of the same crap this team has pulled the past few years and not holding anyone accountable. Just look at Beckham's swing for example. How can that not, even in the smallest inclination have absolutely nothing to do with Walker? His adjustments aren't working. Even if/when this team remembers to hit, there is a slim chance they even claw their way back to the top. I just want this organization to wake up and realize that maybe some of these guys are not getting the job done. Not saying Walker is the worst out there, he had to be good to coach the majors, but it certainly looks like whatever he is doing at this moment is not working, and hasn't been working for a while now.

ewokpelts
05-07-2011, 06:16 AM
I'm surprised this has not been posted yet, and a search under "Williams" came up empty. In today's Sun-Times, Kenny Williams said in a piece written by Joe Cowley that there are no plans to replace any coaches.

Link (http://www.suntimes.com/sports/5208885-419/gm-ken-williams-denies-white-sox-coach-cutting-rumors.html)well, they can certainly replace this season ticket holder

Dan H
05-07-2011, 06:21 AM
From the start of 2005 to the All-Star break 2006, the White were 168-95 including the post season. It has to go down as one of the best stretches the team has ever had. Since then the White Sox are a collective 20 games under .500.

There are several constants during all this. The GM, the manager, and the coaching staff. People can draw their own conclusions.

dickallen15
05-07-2011, 07:36 AM
I almost think Ozzie is daring KW and JR to fire him. I think he wants out but wants the money. If they didn't or wouldn't pick up his option, I really believe he would quit.

I don't buy for a second the Cowley "tell all " book Ozzie could "write" making the Sox scared to fire him. If Ozzie were to do that, he could forget about working in baseball again. No one would hire him.

VMSNS
05-07-2011, 10:39 AM
That is mostly true, but Ozzie has authority over his coaches. It was part of the extension he received in 2007. I remember the situation you are talking about (after the Sox lost 3 or 4 in TB in 2008 while getting excellent pitching and scoring something like 6 runs all series). Ozzie said that maybe Kenny needed to fire Walker if the hitters didn't start hitting. I interpreted that at the time to mean that Ozzie was asking for Kenny to fire Walker, maybe I was wrong. Anyway, Kenny said something to the effect of "Ozzie has the authority so he can fire Walker if he wants." I don't know if Ozzie ever actually planned to fire Walker himself, but you are correct that Walker went crying to Reinsdorf who said "Ozzie, you be nice to Greg." Also, last year Reinsdorf said that if Kenny ever came to him and asked if he could fire Ozzie he would give approval, so who knows what would happen if push came to shove.

Really? I was under the impression that last season, after all of Ozzie's family drama and Twitter and the results on the field (this was before the hot streak), KW had decided that he was going to fire Ozzie, but Jerry immediately blocked it. Maybe I'm just remembering it wrong.

kufram
05-07-2011, 10:42 AM
I've stopped thinking about everything except ONE issue. Can we win one baseball game? Just today.

PalehosePlanet
05-07-2011, 11:42 AM
Although it goes against my better judgment, I log on here every day hoping to see that someone was fired, mainly Ozzie, but alas there is nothing.

SI1020
05-07-2011, 12:54 PM
From the start of 2005 to the All-Star break 2006, the White were 168-95 including the post season. It has to go down as one of the best stretches the team has ever had. Since then the White Sox are a collective 20 games under .500.

There are several constants during all this. The GM, the manager, and the coaching staff. People can draw their own conclusions. When I first posted this a couple of years ago or so I remember catching a little hell. I start at the Boston series right before the All Star break in 06 as the beginning of long term mediocre to lousy baseball. They were able to spit and paste it together a little bit in 08 and 10, but man as of now the future looks bleak.

Lip Man 1
05-07-2011, 01:23 PM
SI:

To me the Sox haven't been the same since they won that 19 inning game against the Red Sox right before the All Star Break in 2006.

They came back from the break and promptly lost 10 of 12. They haven't been the same since.

Lip

Soxfest
05-07-2011, 02:03 PM
SI:

To me the Sox haven't been the same since they won that 19 inning game against the Red Sox right before the All Star Break in 2006.

They came back from the break and promptly lost 10 of 12. They haven't been the same since.

Lip

I saw cracks in June 2006, but problems has been around ever since.

thomas35forever
05-07-2011, 02:31 PM
SI:

To me the Sox haven't been the same since they won that 19 inning game against the Red Sox right before the All Star Break in 2006.

They came back from the break and promptly lost 10 of 12. They haven't been the same since.

Lip
I'll go back slightly further. This team peaked when AJ hit the ball out of Wrigley Field. All of the trouble started after that game ended.

SI1020
05-07-2011, 02:53 PM
I'll go back slightly further. This team peaked when AJ hit the ball out of Wrigley Field. All of the trouble started after that game ended. Wasn't it the following day that Buehrle was absolutely hammered and the Sox lost 15-11?

kufram
05-07-2011, 02:54 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong because I have no stats, but it seems to me like there has often been a dip (serious dip on one or two occasions) in Sox results after the ASB.

I'm sometimes struck by how much can change after just a week-end of no games. Contreras comes to mind... not so good before the break, the best pitcher in baseball after the break in '05.

Lip Man 1
05-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Yes Mark was hammered as the Sox were going for the sweep of the Cubs.

Kuf:

I looked this up last year or so and posted it somewhere here at WSI. I gave two sets of numbers, one splitting the season exactly in half and the second set was before and after the All Star break.

If memory serves I think the Sox have had two seasons where the had a better record in the second half than in the first half under Ozzie and I think one time they had exactly the same record before and after the All Star break.

You'll have to see if you can find it and my recollections could be off but one thing stood out as I was putting the numbers together, that overall the record under Ozzie in the second half of a season regardless of what split you used wasn't great...and that cost the Sox dearly in 2006 and 2010. 2004 he gets a pass because Frank and Magglio were injured. 2008 again if I remember right, the record was worse in the second half but they hung on enough to win.

Lip

Tragg
05-07-2011, 05:49 PM
I just can't see isolating this to Ozzie but not Kenny. Kenny's trades have been dreadful recently. Of course isolating this to Walker is even sillier.
Clean house.

Fenway
05-07-2011, 06:12 PM
SI:

To me the Sox haven't been the same since they won that 19 inning game against the Red Sox right before the All Star Break in 2006.

They came back from the break and promptly lost 10 of 12. They haven't been the same since.

Lip

Red Sox never recovered from that 19 inning game either...

I still think the WS will come back.....big key however is if Cleveland is for real.....if they are

Fenway
05-07-2011, 06:32 PM
In the Sat Trib

http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/230719_1961862958959_1014362077_32277569_434823_n. jpg

Lip Man 1
05-07-2011, 06:40 PM
Yea the Red Sox have "never recovered" from that game either...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

86,96,95,95,89 wins from 2006 through the 2010 seasons.

Keep poking the bear.

Lip

Fenway
05-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Yea the Red Sox have "never recovered" from that game either...

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

86,96,95,95,89 wins from 2006 through the 2010 seasons.

Keep poking the bear.

Lip

Lip - they also fell apart after the break in 2006.......the day of the 19 inning game both Sox had the best records in MLB....

A friend who works for the Red Sox ticket department says the White Sox biggest problem is moving tickets is getting people to sit in the upper deck....the team has to be very good and exciting for people to sit there....lower bowl and bleachers they can sell - upper deck has the stigma of being denied access to the rest of the park - that is something you do not see in other MLB parks -fact.

Brian26
05-07-2011, 06:57 PM
Red Sox never recovered from that 19 inning game either...

I think I invested $100 in Gatorade that day at the park. Left to go to the park around 11am, got home close to 8pm.

Fenway
05-07-2011, 07:00 PM
I think I invested $100 in Gatorade that day at the park. Left to go to the park around 11am, got home close to 8pm.

I was exhausted just listening on radio......

Was it very hot that day?

SI1020
05-07-2011, 07:12 PM
I remember thinking it was a great game to win before the break and I was anxious and ready for the rest of the year. Then they came out flat and that was all she wrote.

kufram
05-08-2011, 03:10 AM
Yes Mark was hammered as the Sox were going for the sweep of the Cubs.

Kuf:

I looked this up last year or so and posted it somewhere here at WSI. I gave two sets of numbers, one splitting the season exactly in half and the second set was before and after the All Star break.

If memory serves I think the Sox have had two seasons where the had a better record in the second half than in the first half under Ozzie and I think one time they had exactly the same record before and after the All Star break.

You'll have to see if you can find it and my recollections could be off but one thing stood out as I was putting the numbers together, that overall the record under Ozzie in the second half of a season regardless of what split you used wasn't great...and that cost the Sox dearly in 2006 and 2010. 2004 he gets a pass because Frank and Magglio were injured. 2008 again if I remember right, the record was worse in the second half but they hung on enough to win.

Lip

Mr. Lip,

Now that you mention it I do recall a post by you about the second half, thank you. I meant to be focused more on the 10-25 games immediately after the break. I never look forward to the ASB, partly because I don't really get all-star games, but also because it seems like we usually come back cold... or at least colder. Maybe this year it will be the opposite? I know, I know.... hopelessly hoping.

Hitmen77
05-08-2011, 10:12 AM
Red Sox never recovered from that 19 inning game either...

I still think the WS will come back.....big key however is if Cleveland is for real.....if they are

:scratch:They won the World Series the following season.

JermaineDye05
05-09-2011, 09:06 PM
Can we still get Logan Morrison for Ozzie?

soltrain21
05-09-2011, 09:15 PM
Can we still get Logan Morrison for Ozzie?

No teal.