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View Full Version : Ozzie Doesn't Even Know the Problem?


S-SideTrifecta
05-04-2011, 05:11 PM
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/stor...with-white-sox (http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-05-05/frustrated-ozzie-guillen-not-sure-what-is-wrong-with-white-sox)


Ozzie doesn't even know what is wrong? What kind of manager says these things. His welcome is over as far as I am concerned, time for a change.

kittle42
05-04-2011, 05:17 PM
Someone show this man a mirror, followed by a door.

Gavin
05-04-2011, 05:19 PM
What a bum.

Soxman219
05-04-2011, 05:20 PM
Sadly, Ozzie ain't leaving anytime soon.

kittle42
05-04-2011, 05:26 PM
Sadly, Ozzie ain't leaving anytime soon.

I know, and that may actually be the most depressing thing about this whole turn of events.

VMSNS
05-04-2011, 05:27 PM
Earlier today on the pre-game with Rongey, Ozzie said "I'm the face of the franchise".

Boondock Saint
05-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Earlier today on the pre-game with Rongey, Ozzie said "I'm the face of the franchise".

Man, he is way off. I'd say he's more the ass of the franchise.

soltrain21
05-04-2011, 05:29 PM
Earlier today on the pre-game with Rongey, Ozzie said "I'm the face of the franchise".

This guy can **** right off. He is the face of the franchise, but doesn't know what's wrong?

Connect the dots and leave.

A. Cavatica
05-04-2011, 10:01 PM
man, he is way off. I'd say he's more the ass of the franchise.

+1.

Zakath
05-04-2011, 10:16 PM
Well, to help Ozzie out, let's start with "Everything" and then work our way down from there...

Scottiehaswheels
05-04-2011, 10:32 PM
If our offense could hit against our defense/bullpen that might build their confidence?

aloha
05-04-2011, 10:32 PM
the problem with this team is the players. ozzy, 2005 A.L. manager of the year, hasn't lost his touch at all obviously. it doesn't go away overnight. what probably is going to happen is that the players will learn just because they make more money than ozzy doesn't mean they know more about hitting and pitching than him. once that happens, june, then they will go on to win the central and ozzie will win another manager of the year award. so I just want to say congrats to ozzie ahead of time.

Scottiehaswheels
05-04-2011, 10:38 PM
the problem with this team is the players. ozzy, 2005 A.L. manager of the year, hasn't lost his touch at all obviously. it doesn't go away overnight. what probably is going to happen is that the players will learn just because they make more money than ozzy doesn't mean they know more about hitting and pitching than him. once that happens, june, then they will go on to win the central and ozzie will win another manager of the year award. so I just want to say congrats to ozzie ahead of time.
That's some real good **** you're smoking. Freddie?

A. Cavatica
05-04-2011, 10:59 PM
the problem with this team is the players. ozzy, 2005 A.L. manager of the year, hasn't lost his touch at all obviously. it doesn't go away overnight. what probably is going to happen is that the players will learn just because they make more money than ozzy doesn't mean they know more about hitting and pitching than him. once that happens, june, then they will go on to win the central and ozzie will win another manager of the year award. so I just want to say congrats to ozzie ahead of time.

:tealtutor:

Lip Man 1
05-04-2011, 11:24 PM
Maybe this is Timberwolf in disguise?

Lip

russ99
05-05-2011, 12:58 AM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Real simple, right?

For weeks, Ozzie's been positive in the press, and he's as frustrated as we are since he's tried any number of things and it's flat not working.

If anything Kenny doesn't know the problem since he's done nothing to try and fix it, just running the same roster out there, win or lose.

BainesHOF
05-05-2011, 01:20 AM
This roster was projected by a statistical service to score the most runs in baseball this season. Williams put together a good roster with a potential to be very good. Something has gone seriously wrong.

Right, Ozzie?

HaroMaster87
05-05-2011, 01:29 AM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Real simple, right?

For weeks, Ozzie's been positive in the press, and he's as frustrated as we are since he's tried any number of things and it's flat not working.

If anything Kenny doesn't know the problem since he's done nothing to try and fix it, just running the same roster out there, win or lose.

^^^^
This...

Theres nothing that can be done...so these guys either play better, or we continue to suck...its that simple.
Firing everyone does nothing...

WhiteSox5187
05-05-2011, 01:55 AM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Real simple, right?

For weeks, Ozzie's been positive in the press, and he's as frustrated as we are since he's tried any number of things and it's flat not working.

If anything Kenny doesn't know the problem since he's done nothing to try and fix it, just running the same roster out there, win or lose.

I agree with this, I am still starting to think that Ozzie might have lost the team and should probably go soon, but it's not like the problems with this team are easy ones to solve. If they were, we would have solved them by now.

doublem23
05-05-2011, 02:11 AM
^^^^
This...

Theres nothing that can be done...so these guys either play better, or we continue to suck...its that simple.
Firing everyone does nothing...

I agree with this, I am still starting to think that Ozzie might have lost the team and should probably go soon, but it's not like the problems with this team are easy ones to solve. If they were, we would have solved them by now.

Firing probably does nothing. Sitting and waiting however, obviously does nothing.

The Rockies in 2009 fired Clint Hurdle after an 18-28 start. Hurdle had lead the team to the World Series just two years previous. They replaced him with Jim Tracy, who had losing seasons in each of his last 3 seasons as an MLB manager (OK, two were in Pittsburgh). The exact same players went 74-42 under Tracy, Colorado won 92 games and the NL Wild Card.

Look, it's not a question of talent. Likely 20+ members of the Sox roster right now would find a new home on a Major League team if the Sox just folded and they had a dispersal draft. And I'm not even saying Ozzie can't win, he obviously can in the right situation, but maybe he's just wrong for this team. Maybe he's just been the wrong manager for a while. I mean, really, we're on a 4-17 slide and we're the worst team in Major League baseball. How could anyone new come in and do a worse job than Ozzie?

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-05-2011, 08:54 AM
For weeks, Ozzie's been positive in the press, and he's as frustrated as we are since he's tried any number of things and it's flat not working.


After the bullpen blew their third save, he had his stomp out and leave press conference where he was pissed that he was in the seat when things went poorly. Ever since that, this team has **** itself on a regular occasion.

It seems he's more concerned about looking like he's doing something than doing something. I know, I am not in the clubhouse, etc.....but the horrible play and his tirade are a parallel, IMO.

Hitmen77
05-05-2011, 10:21 AM
http://www.nwitimes.com/ap/sports/article_98f095da-5e5c-5a20-862d-abf2d55f76fa.html


Ozzie doesn't even know what is wrong? What kind of manager says these things. His welcome is over as far as I am concerned, time for a change.

The link doesn't work for me.

Earlier today on the pre-game with Rongey, Ozzie said "I'm the face of the franchise".

That's part of the problem: Ozzie has become the "face of the franchise". It's no longer about whether Ozzie is a good or effective manager, it's about "I can't imagine the Sox without Ozzie".

I don't know in what context Ozzie said this, so I really can't comment on whether he's playing that card to hide behind criticism of his success as a manager.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-05-2011, 10:31 AM
Firing probably does nothing. Sitting and waiting however, obviously does nothing.

The Rockies in 2009 fired Clint Hurdle after an 18-28 start. Hurdle had lead the team to the World Series just two years previous. They replaced him with Jim Tracy, who had losing seasons in each of his last 3 seasons as an MLB manager (OK, two were in Pittsburgh). The exact same players went 74-42 under Tracy, Colorado won 92 games and the NL Wild Card.

Look, it's not a question of talent. Likely 20+ members of the Sox roster right now would find a new home on a Major League team if the Sox just folded and they had a dispersal draft. And I'm not even saying Ozzie can't win, he obviously can in the right situation, but maybe he's just wrong for this team. Maybe he's just been the wrong manager for a while. I mean, really, we're on a 4-17 slide and we're the worst team in Major League baseball. How could anyone new come in and do a worse job than Ozzie?

I agree with this. With no other options, change for the sake of change is at the top of the list. In fact, it's probably a few years overdue.

Rocky Soprano
05-05-2011, 10:47 AM
http://aol.sportingnews.com/mlb/story/2011-05-05/frustrated-ozzie-guillen-not-sure-what-is-wrong-with-white-sox

Ozzie doesn't need anyone to second guess him because he already second guessed himself!

That's good enough for me Ozzie. Give that man an extension!

Lip Man 1
05-05-2011, 12:04 PM
Team finances also factor into a decision here. I'm sure the Sox have a pretty good feeling should this disaster continue roughly how many fans they are going to get to show up the final four months of the season.

Making a change to whomever at least gives the possibility of "hope" which could bring out x number of fans more than was originally anticipated.

I'm sure they are going to wind up taking a bath but how deep of a bath is the question...making changes even if only cosmetic may (notice I said may) lead to a better performance on the field and a few more fans in the stands.

Lip

The Immigrant
05-05-2011, 12:31 PM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Here's what I would do with the roster:

- put Pierre on the bench and bring up Viciedo to play RF, moving Quentin to LF.
- alternate between Vizquel and Lillibridge in the leadoff spot; I'd also consider Alexei there, since he's actually drawing walks this year.
- move Rios to the 2nd spot in the lineup and move A.J. to the bottom. The way bottom.
- play Castro every time we face a lefty.
- move Dunn out of the 3rd spot and replace him with Paulie.
- send Morel and Sale to AA or AAA.
- Teahen starts at 3B until further notice, with Vizquel getting some of the starts there.
- make Beckham drop and give me 100 pushups every time he tries pulling the ball.
- stop trying to bunt.
- stop trying to steal unless V. Martinez is behind the plate.
- make it clear to everyone that Santos is our closer.

GoSox2K3
05-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Real simple, right?

For weeks, Ozzie's been positive in the press, and he's as frustrated as we are since he's tried any number of things and it's flat not working.

If anything Kenny doesn't know the problem since he's done nothing to try and fix it, just running the same roster out there, win or lose.

Of course! Since average joe fans wouldn't themselves be qualified to skipper the White Sox that means that nobody can criticize Ozzie's handling of this team. :rolleyes:

We may as well give Ozzie a lifetime contract since posters on WSI couldn't manage a MLB team themselves.

Gammons Peter
05-05-2011, 12:49 PM
Here's what I would do with the roster:

- put Pierre on the bench and bring up Viciedo to play RF, moving Quentin to LF.
- alternate between Vizquel and Lillibridge in the leadoff spot; I'd also consider Alexei there, since he's actually drawing walks this year.
- move Rios to the 2nd spot in the lineup and move A.J. to the bottom. The way bottom.
- play Castro every time we face a lefty.
- move Dunn out of the 3rd spot and replace him with Paulie.
- send Morel and Sale to AA or AAA.
- Teahen starts at 3B until further notice, with Vizquel getting some of the starts there.
- make Beckham drop and give me 100 pushups every time he tries pulling the ball.
- stop trying to bunt.
- stop trying to steal unless V. Martinez is behind the plate.
- make it clear to everyone that Santos is our closer.


Yes

kittle42
05-05-2011, 12:51 PM
Since some of you love to pick and choose quotes from Ozzie as justification to get him fired, what would you do with the 25 man roster as it currently exists to turn this team around?

Real simple, right?


- stop trying to bunt.
- stop trying to steal unless V. Martinez is behind the plate.
- make it clear to everyone that Santos is our closer.

There you go, russ99, three very simple things that Ozzie can do with absolutely no adjustment to the 25-man roster.

Scottiehaswheels
05-05-2011, 12:55 PM
There you go, russ99, three very simple things that Ozzie can do with absolutely no adjustment to the 25-man roster.I'd add stop intentionally walking people as well.. That only works against us, never for us.

asindc
05-05-2011, 12:56 PM
Of course! Since average joe fans wouldn't themselves be qualified to skipper the White Sox that means that nobody can criticize Ozzie's handling of this team. :rolleyes:

We may as well give Ozzie a lifetime contract since posters on WSI couldn't manage a MLB team themselves.

You might have noticed that the post directly above yours actually responded to russ' question.

khan
05-05-2011, 01:25 PM
Here's what I would do with the roster:

- put Pierre on the bench and bring up Viciedo to play RF, moving Quentin to LF.
- alternate between Vizquel and Lillibridge in the leadoff spot; I'd also consider Alexei there, since he's actually drawing walks this year.
- move Rios to the 2nd spot in the lineup and move A.J. to the bottom. The way bottom.
- play Castro every time we face a lefty.
- move Dunn out of the 3rd spot and replace him with Paulie.
- send Morel and Sale to AA or AAA.
- Teahen starts at 3B until further notice, with Vizquel getting some of the starts there.
- make Beckham drop and give me 100 pushups every time he tries pulling the ball.
- stop trying to bunt.
- stop trying to steal unless V. Martinez is behind the plate.
- make it clear to everyone that Santos is our closer.
I'll add to this:

Send Beckham down to AA, rather than wasting any more time for him to stop his pants-crapping routine at the plate. This team is NOW so far behind that it cannot "wait" for Beckham to get out of his slump. At the same time, maybe he can help Birmingham at the gate, and get his mojo back.

BENCH Dunn v LHP. His Batting average v. LHP: .000. Let's read that again: Adam Dunn's BA v. LHP: .000. [Honestly, this really isn't "doing anything with the roster," more of a "using common ****ing sense" sort of thing by the manager.]

Don't EVER use a gassed reliever [as in Sale v. Oakland] the day after he threw 30+ pitches. [Again, this isn't much of a doing "anything with the roster," this falls under "using common ****ing sense" on the part of the manager.]

Avoid using Ohman v. RHB as much as possible. Ohman's OPS allowed v. righties: 1.179. [Once again, this isn't much of a doing "anything with the roster," this falls under "using common ****ing sense" on the part of the manager.]

kittle42
05-05-2011, 01:34 PM
Don't EVER use a gassed reliever [as in Sale v. Oakland] the day after he threw 30+ pitches. [Again, this isn't much of a doing "anything with the roster," this falls under "using common ****ing sense" on the part of the manager.]

Avoid using Ohman v. RHB as much as possible. Ohman's OPS allowed v. righties: 1.179. [Once again, this isn't much of a doing "anything with the roster," this falls under "using common ****ing sense" on the part of the manager.]

Two more things Ozzie can do without any roster change at all. Hey, look, this thread is actually discussing options without just tossing hyperbole back and forth!

russ99
05-05-2011, 02:08 PM
There you go, russ99, three very simple things that Ozzie can do with absolutely no adjustment to the 25-man roster.

Two of the three (stealing and bunting) being things that successful major league teams do (the Twins just did this to us, in case we forgot) and some Sox fans want to stop because they're not macho-basherball enough. And I'm not saying go all smallball either. There should be a balance. If anything, this aspect of the offense has been fairly successful and the run-producers/RBI guys have been bigger failures at doing their jobs, especially at 2-out RISP.

So we should totally stop trying to get runners in scoring position because of a major deficienency at RISP?

Also, the Sale outing wasn't about sending a "gassed" reliever out there, it was having zero confidence that the other two options available at the time could do the job. Had Ozzie sent Thornton out instead and gotten shelled like every other appearance, people would have complained about not using Sale.

I do agree about Santos. Stop beating around the bush and give the guy the job. Ditto Crain at setup.

kittle42
05-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Two of the three (stealing and bunting) being things that successful major league teams do and Sox fans want to stop because they're not macho-basherball enough. And I'm not saying go all smallball either. There should be a balance.

I also agree in a balance, and you know as everyone here does that I am in NO WAY in that "macho-basherball" mindset. However, it has been shown time and again that Ozzie stubbornly sticks to these strategies even though lack of execution has shown that he does not have the proper personnel to make them work. Does that also fall on upper management? Yes, because they assemble the roster. But a field manager MUST work with what he has, and have the humility and smarts to change the balance to tilt in favor of the 25-man squad he has. Ozzie does not do this.

Also, the Sale outing wasn't about sending a "gassed" reliever out there, it was having zero confidence that the other two options available at the time could do the job.

Regardless, there are times when a reliever simply cannot be used. Look at guys who get the occasional weird-looking save on the stat sheet. It's often because - as here - the closer has been (for a reliever) extensively used the day(s) before. Yes, minds can differ, but I think if you objectively looked at it BEFORE the half-inning even started, putting in Sale in that situation was maybe the third-best option.

Santos, we agree on.

Rocky Soprano
05-05-2011, 02:16 PM
Two of the three (stealing and bunting) being things that successful major league teams do and Sox fans want to stop because they're not macho-basherball enough. And I'm not saying go all smallball either. There should be a balance.

Also, the Sale outing wasn't about sending a "gassed" reliever out there, it was having zero confidence that the other two options available at the time could do the job.

I do agree about Santos. Stop beating around the bush and give the guy the job.

IF our guys knew how to steal and how to bunt, no one would be asking them to stop.

How many years have we been hearing about smart ball, small ball, Ozzie ball, etc? Yet, we can never seem to execute those things that, as you mentioned, successful teams do.

The issue appears to be a lack of preparation and a lack of everday fundamentals which should be worked on in spring training and in practice/drills.

I can only blame that on Ozzie and his coaches.

russ99
05-05-2011, 02:24 PM
IF our guys knew how to steal and how to bunt, no one would be asking them to stop.

How many years have we been hearing about smart ball, small ball, Ozzie ball, etc? Yet, we can never seem to execute those things that, as you mentioned, successful teams do.

The issue appears to be a lack of preparation and a lack of everday fundamentals which should be worked on in spring training and in practice/drills.

I can only blame that on Ozzie and his coaches.

Did we not see the Sox spending a whole week on fundamentals this spring?

IMO, the players either don't want to execute or are so wrapped up into their stats/approach that they can't.

I do agree coaching and organizational philosophy plays a part in this, so Ozzie and the staff have to share the blame.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-05-2011, 02:25 PM
Two of the three (stealing and bunting) being things that successful major league teams do (the Twins just did this to us, in case we forgot) and some Sox fans want to stop because they're not macho-basherball enough. And I'm not saying go all smallball either. There should be a balance. If anything, this aspect of the offense has been fairly successful and the run-producers RBI guys have been bigger failures at doing their jobs, especially at 2-out RISP.

Also, the Sale outing wasn't about sending a "gassed" reliever out there, it was having zero confidence that the other two options available at the time could do the job. Had Ozzie sent Thornton out instead and gotten shelled like every other appearance, people would have complained about not using Sale.

I do agree about Santos. Stop beating around the bush and give the guy the job.

Sox fans want to stop because Ozzie doesn't understand that you need to temper the chances you take on the bases to increase overall run expectancy. Stolen bases are great provided you don't get caught too many times because that makes it a counterproductive endeavor.

Last year the Sox led the league in CS by 25 and were 24th in SB% and this year they are 29th in SB% and already lead in CS by 5.

They've been caught 18 times and stolen 18 times in 2011.

You can label it a call for macho-basherball but it would be more appropriately labelled a call for common sense.

khan
05-05-2011, 02:30 PM
Two of the three (stealing and bunting) being things that successful major league teams do (the Twins just did this to us, in case we forgot) and some Sox fans want to stop because they're not macho-basherball enough. And I'm not saying go all smallball either.
How about utilizing the team YOU have to do the best job THEY can do, instead of hoping that your team will magically transform themselves into something they're not?

Also, the Sale outing wasn't about sending a "gassed" reliever out there, it was having zero confidence that the other two options available at the time could do the job.
So in other words, there is no reason to have any regard to a player's state of fitness and rest? OK: Pitch Sale every single game, then. We'll go with a one-man pitching staff: Chris Sale and ONLY Chris Sale.

Had Ozzie sent Thornton out instead and gotten shelled like every other appearance, people would have complained about not using Sale.
Nice hypothetical. How about another hypothetical: "Had OG used his ****ing brain and put Gray out there instead, maybe they wouldn't have lost that game." [You know, the rested RHP to face the RH batters?]

But using his ****ing brain is apparently too hard for him, and too hard for us to expect, right? Let's use a hypothetical where the [supposedly] only choices are a gassed Sale or a gassed/battered Thornton. [BTW, Sale faced righties in that game, which is yet another reason to go to the RHP Gray.]

Scottiehaswheels
05-05-2011, 02:32 PM
Did we not see the Sox spending a whole week on fundamentals this spring?I would think after 5 years of witnessing the results, I would enter spring training realizing this is obviously not enough. One week out of an 8 month season. Granted these are supposedly professionals but...

Rocky Soprano
05-05-2011, 02:39 PM
Did we not see the Sox spending a whole week on fundamentals this spring?

IMO, the players either don't want to execute or are so wrapped up into their stats/approach that they can't.

I do agree coaching and organizational philosophy plays a part in this, so Ozzie and the staff have to share the blame.

Obviously one whole week was not enough time.

The players execute whatever sign Ozzie gives them.
I can't imagine there is a player that when given the bunt sign or the steal sign that wants to fail.

miker
05-05-2011, 02:45 PM
I can't imagine there is a player that when given the bunt sign or the steal sign that wants to fail.

No, but I can think of quite of few who poop in their drawers 'cause they never learned to do it properly.

Rocky Soprano
05-05-2011, 02:50 PM
No, but I can think of quite of few who poop in their drawers 'cause they never learned to do it properly.

I agree, and I blame that on Ozzie and his coaches.
Everyone on the staff should know how to lay down a bunt and if there is someone that just can't get it done then you should NEVER ask him to bunt.

Lip Man 1
05-05-2011, 03:18 PM
I think what makes the situation worse is that every off season for the past four years Ozzie has told the media (paraphrasing) that things will be different this year.

They never seem to.

Despite what one of the Sox broadcasters communicated to me I just find it hard to grasp that "every" player the Sox have gotten since the end of the 2005 season is "baseball-stupid" in fundamentals

I simply feel that Ozzie and his staff may not be doing the best job of teaching or getting through to these guys.

Ozzie probably would be better off avoiding the subject of "fundamentals" completely in the off season.

And like Gonzo said in his weekly mailbag, unless you are willing to force the guys out for pregame fundamental drills all season doing it for one week accomplishes nothing.

Lip