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View Full Version : Should Kenny Williams be fired?


Viva Medias B's
05-04-2011, 08:52 AM
We have certainly talked about this in other posts and polls, but the time has come to ask the question outright. There is enough angst out there. The time to gauge WSIers has come.

Soxfest
05-04-2011, 09:15 AM
Please resign.

fox23
05-04-2011, 09:19 AM
Yes. He has hit a lot of singles with his trades for Danks, Floyd, and Q, but every time he's swung for the fences he whiffs badly (Rios, Peavy, Swisher). Those first two contracts have been and will continue to be a massive burden for years to come.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2011, 09:31 AM
JR, its time to clean house. KW, Ozzie and the coaches need to go.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2011, 09:37 AM
KW has made some good trades, and made some good FA acquisitions during his tenure. However, I have posted before about how disappointed I am with the lack of player development; the minors are dismal at best.

I don't expect this team to finish as poorly as the current standings, but I just don't see them in the post season either. I'm just getting tired of seeing the same, poor defense, swing for the seats, type of team year after year.

$125 million is a lot of money to spend on an "also-ran"

So, does JR stay loyal to his employees, or does he stay loyal to his money?

SI1020
05-04-2011, 09:41 AM
JR, its time to clean house. KW, Ozzie and the coaches need to go. So does he. The organization needs a complete and total overhaul from the top all the way down. I think I'd like to keep Roger Bossard, but right now, as far as I'm concerned everyone else can go.

Procol Harum
05-04-2011, 09:49 AM
Williams' take-no-prisoners attitude is fine when a team is on the cusp of success. But the cumulative impact of several years of his restless, flip-flop strategies year-in-and-year-out have gutted the farm system and left us staring into the baseball abyss.

The real depressing reality at this point is that given the almost inevitable failure of this year's plan, there's nowhere to go but down from here. 2011 will be a giant root canal of a baseball season and, without the benefit of some sort of white flag sell-off (and who knows what we get for this poop?), then we're stuck with Adam Dunn, an aging PK, a question behind the plate, Brent Morel, an aging no-arm Juan Pierre, a flailing, highly-paid Alex Rios, perhaps a downward spiraling Gordon Beckham (I'm still hoping that he'll reverse his situation), an inadequate bullpen, and a questionable starting rotation. Not a good recipe for 2012 and beyond.

On the good side, a lot of Sox fans should have very well-kept yards in the next few years....

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 11:18 AM
KW has done a great job with his low profile cheaper acquisitions. When he spends a lot of money on a player or is taking on a lot of money, those deals, at least in recent seasons have turned out to be below average by a large margin. He's a guy who is probably better off with a smaller budget.

Chez
05-04-2011, 11:22 AM
As I posted in another thread, the majority of the media experts picked this team to win the central. In other words, KW put together a roster that was supposed to, by ALL accounts, win in 2011. He did his job.

SI1020
05-04-2011, 11:33 AM
As I posted in another thread, the majority of the media experts picked this team to win the central. In other words, KW put together a roster that was supposed to, by ALL accounts, win in 2011. He did his job. What did those same experts predict in 05? Apparently they were highly unimpressed with all the work he did after the conclusion of the 04 season.

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 11:37 AM
As I posted in another thread, the majority of the media experts picked this team to win the central. In other words, KW put together a roster that was supposed to, by ALL accounts, win in 2011. He did his job.

That's why they play the games. What's on paper doesn't matter, and it wasn't by all accounts. There were plenty of places that pegged the Sox as a 2nd or 3rd place team. Not 5th, I'll agree with that. I still think they will be better than most think, whether that will be good enough for postseason play, every day that window is closing.

samurai_sox
05-04-2011, 11:45 AM
He should be fired just for the horrible shape the farm system is in.

What angers me the most about KW is that he is too stubborn, he'll never admit that he's wrong or that he made a bad trade.

He absolutely has to go if the Sox decide to rebuild, I have no confidence that he could rebuild this organization.

Noneck
05-04-2011, 11:49 AM
I have always got the impression that Williams never had total control of personnel. Reinsdorf gets involved in the big name personnel acquisitions and in hiring and possibly keeping coaches. It is really tough for me to get a true read of what Williams does on his own or is able to do.

daveeym
05-04-2011, 11:58 AM
I say no. While he hasn't helped the minors it's not like he trashed a good system. He's the only guy that ever seems pissed about the situation and has made more moves than anyone else out there. While he's a bit stubborn in the "kenny always get's his man" motif and usually gets them too late, I think he's put together good teams that should have a lot more pennants than what they have won in the last 5 years.

kittle42
05-04-2011, 12:03 PM
He should stay out of our business. White Sox business.

kittle42
05-04-2011, 12:04 PM
While he hasn't helped the minors it's not like he trashed a good system.

So inheriting crap and keeping it crappy for years is now a blameless offense?

daveeym
05-04-2011, 12:12 PM
So inheriting crap and keeping it crappy for years is now a blameless offense?
Depends on your point of view. If they would have made the playoffs as often as I expected them to before each season, combined with 2005, I'd say yes. Have they not won anything because of Kenny, Ozzie or the players? I guess it depends on your point of view. In hindsight I'd rather have a better minor leagues since we haven't really won **** since 2005. But at the time I loved his agenda of playing for now and not the future.

tsoxman
05-04-2011, 12:13 PM
He's had more resources to work with (aka money) than any GM in our history, and he has squandered it. Could he have not used some of the money that he squandered on Peavy and Rios and at least started to develop a better minor league system with better scouts, instructional people, etc, similiar to what the Cubs did when they hired Tim Wilken in 2005? Assuming that Reinsdorf has little interest in player development (for reasons I will never understand), and, If Kenny had as much political capital as he and everyone said he had after the WC, could he have not persuaded Jerry et al to do something like this fro our organization?

Good bye, Kenny.

DSpivack
05-04-2011, 12:18 PM
I voted no, but only because I think Ozzie and Walker should be fired immediately to see if we can salvage this season. If not, then perhaps KW should go after the season ends.

Lip Man 1
05-04-2011, 12:27 PM
It does need to be noted that the Sox spent less money on the minor league system for the past five years than any team in baseball. Was that Kenny's decision or orders from someone higher?

Lip

WhiteSox5187
05-04-2011, 12:39 PM
**** typically starts at the top and rolls down hill. Kenny is every bit as responsible for the short comings of the Sox of late as Ozzie is. Kenny has been here ten years now and only has two playoff appearances, both with Ozzie as his manager. At this point they are a package deal as far as I am concerned.

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 12:40 PM
I say no. While he hasn't helped the minors it's not like he trashed a good system. He's the only guy that ever seems pissed about the situation and has made more moves than anyone else out there. While he's a bit stubborn in the "kenny always get's his man" motif and usually gets them too late, I think he's put together good teams that should have a lot more pennants than what they have won in the last 5 years.

He got the GM job at least partially based on his position as the Farm Director and the White Sox ranking as the #1 farm system in 2000. Turns out being ranked that and actually producing players are 2 different things. KW inherited a 94 win team, a division champ, and what was ranked the #1 farm system in baseball and operated with more resources than his counterparts in his division. He's made the playoffs twice in now his 11th season. Firing him now probably does nothing, but moving forward, someone else needs to be making the decisions.

daveeym
05-04-2011, 12:44 PM
He got the GM job at least partially based on his position as the Farm Director and the White Sox ranking as the #1 farm system in 2000. Turns out being ranked that and actually producing players are 2 different things. KW inherited a 94 win team, a division champ, and what was ranked the #1 farm system in baseball and operated with more resources than his counterparts in his division. He's made the playoffs twice in now his 11th season. Firing him now probably does nothing, but moving forward, someone else needs to be making the decisions.
And I put a good portion of that playoff success on Ozzie. However, they probably don't win in 2005 without Ozzie so I wouldn't trade that for the world. But the past is the past, my take is that I'd like to see what Kenny's teams do without Ozzie. Then can his ass if it's the sos.

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 12:47 PM
And I put a good portion of that playoff success on Ozzie. However, they probably don't win in 2005 without Ozzie so I wouldn't trade that for the world. But the past is the past, my take is that I'd like to see what Kenny's teams do without Ozzie. Then can his ass if it's the sos.

You saw what his teams did without Ozzie. See Manuel, Jerry. It was more of the same, in fact, there was one article the other day comparing this year to 2001.

khan
05-04-2011, 01:30 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT.

In Kenny We Trust!


WOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

doublem23
05-04-2011, 01:33 PM
I say no. While he hasn't helped the minors it's not like he trashed a good system

Didn't the White Sox have the #1 minor league system in baseball in 2000, when KW took over as GM?

soltrain21
05-04-2011, 01:33 PM
ABSOLUTELY NOT.

In Kenny We Trust!


WOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

Should have known he sucked when he wasn't in accelerated reading in 4th grade.

khan
05-04-2011, 01:35 PM
should have known he sucked when he wasn't in accelerated reading in 4th grade.

2005, baby!!!!

Wooooooo!!!!!!

doublem23
05-04-2011, 01:36 PM
Should have known he sucked when he wasn't in accelerated reading in 4th grade.

:thumbsup:

TheOldRoman
05-04-2011, 01:37 PM
2005, baby!!!!

Wooooooo!!!!!!So, anyone objecting to your obvious trolling comments or making light of your ridiculous and ignorant posts about KW being uneducated is only doing so because they are stuck in the past? That is quite a strawman you have built for yourself.

khan
05-04-2011, 01:39 PM
So, anyone objecting to your obvious trolling comments or making light of your ridiculous and ignorant posts about KW being uneducated is only doing so because they are stuck in the past? That is quite a strawman you have built for yourself.

No, your sig says it all:

In Kenny We Trust!

You've shown us the light and the truth. 2005, Baby!

Rocky Soprano
05-04-2011, 01:44 PM
Yes, but only because he picked up Ozzie's option before he did anything to deserve it.

TheOldRoman
05-04-2011, 01:55 PM
No, your sig says it all:

In Kenny We Trust!

You've shown us the light and the truth. 2005, Baby!The "ZOMG 2005!!" thing wasn't realistically based on any people. A good number of imbeciles who are now banned made that up to discredit anyone who didn't agree with their silly, baseless stat-centric view of all things. Nobody on this board (out of the regular posters, anyway) has EVER claimed that Ozzie or Kenny can't ever be fired simply because they won a World Series. So you are just throwing crap at the wall. I know that you are exceedingly intelligent (far more so than Ken Williams, Ozzie or any of the other posters), and have expertise in many fields from finance to personal training to frenology, but please excuse us for not agreeing with you.

kobo
05-04-2011, 02:03 PM
I don't see the point in firing Williams at this point in the season. After the season is over, sure, I can agree with that. Right now though, the issues are on the field and those need to be addressed first before moving upstairs.

asindc
05-04-2011, 02:10 PM
He should be fired just for the horrible shape the farm system is in.

What angers me the most about KW is that he is too stubborn, he'll never admit that he's wrong or that he made a bad trade.

He absolutely has to go if the Sox decide to rebuild, I have no confidence that he could rebuild this organization.

This strikes me as a good reason to fire KW, not because the team is lousy right now. If you would not have fired him on March 1, 2011, why would you fire him now?

slavko
05-04-2011, 02:20 PM
It does need to be noted that the Sox spent less money on the minor league system for the past five years than any team in baseball. Was that Kenny's decision or orders from someone higher?

Lip

Probably more like "Daddy, can I have ice cream?" "Kenny, we only have enough money for lunch" "I want ice cream, ice cream, ice cream" "Then there won't be any money for lunch"

$125M is a big payroll.

khan
05-04-2011, 02:26 PM
The "ZOMG 2005!!" thing wasn't realistically based on any people. A good number of imbeciles who are now banned made that up to discredit anyone who didn't agree with their silly, baseless stat-centric view of all things. Nobody on this board (out of the regular posters, anyway) has EVER claimed that Ozzie or Kenny can't ever be fired simply because they won a World Series. So you are just throwing crap at the wall. I know that you are exceedingly intelligent (far more so than Ken Williams, Ozzie or any of the other posters), and have expertise in many fields from finance to personal training to frenology, but please excuse us for not agreeing with you.

And yet, despite your rant here, you cannot point to a legit reason to agree or disagree with anyone on this thread. Is it possible that I believe KW should be retained?

Or is it possible that you don't have a legit reason for wanting him retained?


You decide. But, at the very minimum, have some basis for your opinion. For me, it's "2005, Baby!"

guillensdisciple
05-04-2011, 03:53 PM
Yes, and only because he was the creator of this stupid us against the world crap this organization so proudly flaunts.

That would work well if we actually had people with balls and toughness to back that up. You didn't get those people, and now you have nothing to back up your awesome talk.

TDog
05-04-2011, 04:01 PM
This strikes me as a good reason to fire KW, not because the team is lousy right now. If you would not have fired him on March 1, 2011, why would you fire him now?

Because my team is playing lousy baseball and someone must be punished.

I don't believe anyone needs to be punished, but most people seem to. My belief, and I know you specifically disagree with me, is that signing Dunn is a key reason this team is in a mess right now and could be in the near future. The worst-case scenario is that this could be beyond a bad month or two and the White Sox situation could become Mets bad -- committing money on players whose signings please fans but won't help you win. Hopefully, he salvages his season. Soon.

What we do agree on is that you really can't argue to fire Kenny Williams now if you weren't arguing to fire Kenny Williams on March 1.

What is going on now is not unlike what was going on in the 1960s that led to a low point in the history of the franchise. In the 1960s, the Sox traded off the talent they were developing to continue to contend. The game-plan was different. They team was looking for pitching and defense and considering offense last, but they pretty much depleted their farm system by the time they were losing their last five games in 1967 to finish three games out of first, fourth in a four-team race. They had reached critical mass and there was nothing that could stop the disaster of 1968-1970.

The difference now is that teams can spend their way out of bad situations, but when you commit huge money and years to players who don't perform, it limits you.

Harry Chappas
05-04-2011, 04:04 PM
Yes. He has hit a lot of singles with his trades for Danks, Floyd, and Q, but every time he's swung for the fences he whiffs badly (Rios, Peavy, Swisher). Those first two contracts have been and will continue to be a massive burden for years to come.

The Rios deal looked pretty damned good a year ago. And the Peavy deal looked good until he got dinged up.

Funny how psyched everyone here was about this year's lineup which was assembled by KW. Now it's his fault that this same lineup has peed down their legs.

Kenny isn't the problem. Reinsdorf isn't the problem. This is falls primarily on the players' shoulders and to a lesser extent, the coaches.

fox23
05-04-2011, 04:25 PM
The Rios deal looked pretty damned good a year ago. And the Peavy deal looked good until he got dinged up.

Funny how psyched everyone here was about this year's lineup which was assembled by KW. Now it's his fault that this same lineup has peed down their legs.

Kenny isn't the problem. Reinsdorf isn't the problem. This is falls primarily on the players' shoulders and to a lesser extent, the coaches.

No, the Rios deal looked good for half a season in 2010. He was terrible when we needed him the most in the last 2 months of 2009 and 2010 and has been all this year too. There's a reason why Rios always was at or near the top of most untradeable contracts ever since he signed with Toronto.

And let me know when Peavy even comes close to living up to his billing. 3 great starts in 2009 to go along with paying his salary while on the DL in mid 2009, a mediocre 2010 when healthy, and nothing at all since mid 2010 doesn't sound like a very good trade off to me.

TDog
05-04-2011, 04:47 PM
No, the Rios deal looked good for half a season in 2010. He was terrible when we needed him the most in the last 2 months of 2009 and 2010 and has been all this year too. There's a reason why Rios always was at or near the top of most untradeable contracts ever since he signed with Toronto.

And let me know when Peavy even comes close to living up to his billing. 3 great starts in 2009 to go along with paying his salary while on the DL in mid 2009, a mediocre 2010 when healthy, and nothing at all since mid 2010 doesn't sound like a very good trade off to me.

Rios had a great spring training, by all accounts.

Show me where people were complaining about the Rios deal in March.

Show me where anyone ever complained about losing the players the Sox traded for him.

Daver
05-04-2011, 04:49 PM
Show me where anyone ever complained about losing the players the Sox traded for him.

Seeing that the White Sox gave up no players to acquire him it would be a tough task.

SI1020
05-04-2011, 04:50 PM
Seeing that the White Sox gave up no players to acquire him it would be a tough task. No players. Just a whole lot of green.

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 04:57 PM
Rios had a great spring training, by all accounts.

Show me where people were complaining about the Rios deal in March.

Show me where anyone ever complained about losing the players the Sox traded for him.
I actually advocated trading him in the offseason as I though his second half was brutal but perhaps someone would take him and it may be the right time to get out of the contract and free up some money, but I don't even know if they tried and no other team wanted him which is extremely common with guys owed $50 million.

Even if there were none, it doesn't make KW right. He's supposed to know a heck of a lot more than people posting on a message board. Despite his 3 hits today, there isn't a team in the majors, the White Sox included, that want to be burdened with Rios' contract.

Daver
05-04-2011, 05:03 PM
Kenny should be fired because he does not have a masters degree in baseball, which is the bare minimum requirement for the job.

fox23
05-04-2011, 07:00 PM
Rios had a great spring training, by all accounts.

Show me where people were complaining about the Rios deal in March.

Show me where anyone ever complained about losing the players the Sox traded for him.

As was mentioned below, he was picked up off of waivers so no one was traded. However, he still draws a paycheck, and quite a large one at that. Imagine who we could get with the cash spent on Rios and Peavy...why it could even be a free agent who wouldn't cost any more than a first round pick.

TDog
05-04-2011, 07:25 PM
As was mentioned below, he was picked up off of waivers so no one was traded. However, he still draws a paycheck, and quite a large one at that. Imagine who we could get with the cash spent on Rios and Peavy...why it could even be a free agent who wouldn't cost any more than a first round pick.

Why aren't you complaining about this before the season starts?

The paycheck is irrelevant. The paycheck didn't keep the Sox from signing Dunn.

Show me where anyone, any fans, any former GMs, any baseball analysts, any prospective GMs, had a problem with Rios in center. Show me where people were complaining about Rios having a more outrageous contract than Aaron Rowand (who is having a better season both offensively and defensively.)

And you have to look very hard to find someone who was unhappy about the White Sox signing Dunn at DH.

Of course things have gone horribly wrong, but your complaints are reactionary.

Frontman
05-04-2011, 07:35 PM
I'm at the point that the whole dang lot of 'em can go. KW, Ozzie, Buerhle, Paulie, Hawk, that ball boy over there, the beer vendor in 304.

I'm so damn disgusted by how badly this team has performed, how little has been done to improve it, and how death march attitude we get from the organization.

Dan H
05-04-2011, 08:45 PM
I voted yes with reluctance. I thought Williams had a good off season and maybe that shows how much I know.

The thing that actually concerns me the most is the 30 year history since the Reinsdorf-Einhorn group purchased the team. There have been great years and great teams. Yet there have been some incredible downs. The White Sox just have not gotten over the hump to sustain success and become an elite American League team. Instead they have built some winning teams only to see everything fall apart fairly quickly. Five division titles in 30 years? Not horrible but it doesn't knock our socks off either.

There is just something wrong here. I don't know exactly what it is because I am not close to it. But the organization should be evaluating itself as a whole not just Kenny Williams or Ozzie or even the players.

CLUBHOUSE KID
05-04-2011, 08:59 PM
Rios on paper seemed liked a good move even thought it was $.

I was never a fan of Dunn on her. Sorry, he's an NL guy.

Viva Medias B's
05-04-2011, 09:39 PM
The polls for firing Ozzie Guillen and Greg Walker continue to show supermajorities in the affirmative, but here Kenny Williams has rallied. Fans are split on whether or not Williams should be fired with a few more votes for retaining him than firing him.

A. Cavatica
05-04-2011, 09:46 PM
I voted no, but only because they can't fire everyone at once. Like I said in another thread a week ago, make Kenny hire Ozzie's replacement, and if the team doesn't play well above .500 for the rest of the season then fire Kenny too.

Kenny's gambles are starting to come back to bite him.

NLaloosh
05-04-2011, 10:50 PM
Abso ****in tutely !

aloha
05-04-2011, 10:52 PM
yes, and put ozzie in charge, then they could get some real players. ozzie's players.

Nelfox02
05-04-2011, 11:03 PM
Kenny has had a long enough run here, and the bottom line is that he has proved that he is unable to field a team that wins consistently.

as pointed out time and time again---2 playoff appearances in the AL Central, a division where we have more rescources year after year, his teams just dont get it done.

time for an organizational overhaul, see ya Kenny. feel free to take ozzie and any other player or coach with you as well.

Nellie_Fox
05-05-2011, 01:05 AM
yes, and put ozzie in charge, then they could get some real players. ozzie's players.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ePkF702cWCQ/R0pTi8ZgRkI/AAAAAAAAAmU/JWuV9jjrZqQ/s400/press-shift-key-to-disable-autorun.png

fox23
05-05-2011, 12:44 PM
Why aren't you complaining about this before the season starts?

The paycheck is irrelevant. The paycheck didn't keep the Sox from signing Dunn.

Show me where anyone, any fans, any former GMs, any baseball analysts, any prospective GMs, had a problem with Rios in center. Show me where people were complaining about Rios having a more outrageous contract than Aaron Rowand (who is having a better season both offensively and defensively.)

And you have to look very hard to find someone who was unhappy about the White Sox signing Dunn at DH.

Of course things have gone horribly wrong, but your complaints are reactionary.

I have been complaining about Rios' and Peavy's contracts from the day they were signed, however I don't post here all that often.

The paycheck is very relevant. The paycheck prevented them from getting a real closer this year. This was a one time year for the Sox to go "all in". As this doesn't work and nobody shows up the games, I guarantee you they won't be continuing at this salary level. That will make the contracts that much worse going forward.

And since you asked, I typed in most "untradeable contract baseball" into google. Here's what popped up first, dated way before this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings100506

Show me any GM who would be willing to pick up either of these guys. Come August and waiver time, you'll notice no one will be biting.

Rocky Soprano
05-05-2011, 12:50 PM
yes, and put ozzie in charge, then they could get some real players. ozzie's players.

Find a new shtick.

Frontman
05-05-2011, 01:47 PM
yes, and put ozzie in charge, then they could get some real players. ozzie's players.

You do realize Ozzie LIKES guys like Teahan and Pierre being on the roster, right?

Tragg
05-05-2011, 01:50 PM
You do realize Ozzie LIKES guys like Teahan and Pierre being on the roster, right?

But I think given that a)Ozzie is Williams' manager and b)Williams knows that Ozzie likes players like Pierre, it's Williams' responsibility to acquire Ozzie-style players that actually can hit and field. He hasn't done that. And when he gets a Thome, Dunn or Swisher, that's exactly what Ozzie hates.
Remember, Ozzie's the guy who said that if OBP were really that important for a leadoff hitter, then Jim Thome should lead off.........

Frontman
05-05-2011, 03:56 PM
But I think given that a)Ozzie is Williams' manager and b)Williams knows that Ozzie likes players like Pierre, it's Williams' responsibility to acquire Ozzie-style players that actually can hit and field. He hasn't done that. And when he gets a Thome, Dunn or Swisher, that's exactly what Ozzie hates.
Remember, Ozzie's the guy who said that if OBP were really that important for a leadoff hitter, then Jim Thome should lead off.........

We're pretty much saying the same thing. Ozzie as GM wouldn't change how this team gets assembled in the future.

I hope first that the players we've got start playing to the level they can; and secondly, that Kenny can make the changes on the fly to save this season. I can't stand the thought of a 5 month "wait 'til next year" mantra; followed by an off season of "can't wait until next year."

Harry Chappas
05-06-2011, 11:35 AM
I have been complaining about Rios' and Peavy's contracts from the day they were signed, however I don't post here all that often.

The paycheck is very relevant. The paycheck prevented them from getting a real closer this year. This was a one time year for the Sox to go "all in". As this doesn't work and nobody shows up the games, I guarantee you they won't be continuing at this salary level. That will make the contracts that much worse going forward.

And since you asked, I typed in most "untradeable contract baseball" into google. Here's what popped up first, dated way before this season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&page=rumblings100506

Show me any GM who would be willing to pick up either of these guys. Come August and waiver time, you'll notice no one will be biting.

We may already have a "real" closer in Sergio Santos. If Ozzie wasn't such a stubborn ass, he would have realized this sooner so I disagree with your point about a closer. Furthermore, say we did have this "budget" closer, who is the CF that would have appeased you?

As TDog points out, please refer me to all of the posts on here whining about untradeable contracts and crappy rosters BEFORE the season started. I don't recall seeing too many.

Rios is a career .280 hitter and Dunn is .250. They're both hitting about 100 points below their averages. I seriously doubt you or anyone else would be whining about them if they were playing at their expected levels. So why should KW have predicted that they would both being hitting well under .200 as of May 5th? I don't think anyone could have predicted this mess.

If the players on this team played even close to their averages and Ozzie didn't give Thornton so much leash, we'd probably be at least above .500.

Scottiehaswheels
05-06-2011, 12:09 PM
I was holding out on my vote because I was waiting to see what he did with the coaching staff, but if he truly believes there shouldn't be any coaches removed in-season, he's a worse judge of "talent" than I thought.

Jerko
05-06-2011, 12:29 PM
I don't know if KW should be fired or not. I don't agree with his "everyone is safe" spiel, but the problems on this team are so vast, you can't just blame him. Yes he put the team together, but, the players ARE underperforming compared to career norms (or just all picked the same season to start their declines), the manager waits till 5 games blow up in his face to make a closer move (Twins yanked Nathan much sooner, not that it's done them any good yet), the relief pitchers are studs when the game is out of reach but suck when it's close, when men do reach base it's either followed by a force out, a GIDP, a LIDP (line into double play), a pickoff, or a caught stealing, nobody covers the right base, nobody can bunt but are still asked to, our left fielder can't throw, catch, or reach for a ball under the padding (and there is nobody else on the roster who is any better), and half of the opening day infield should probably be in the minors. EVERYBODY has a slice of the blame for this nasty pie IMO.

Nellie_Fox
05-06-2011, 12:42 PM
...the manager waits till 5 games blow up in his face to make a closer move (Twins yanked Nathan much sooner, not that it's done them any good yet)There's a big difference; Thornton wasn't just coming back from Tommy John surgery. There was no obvious explanation for his performance, and a lot of reasons to believe that it was an anomaly. Nathan requested to be taken out of the closer role because he knew he didn't have it back yet. That's very different from being "yanked."

Jerko
05-06-2011, 12:53 PM
There's a big difference; Thornton wasn't just coming back from Tommy John surgery. There was no obvious explanation for his performance, and a lot of reasons to believe that it was an anomaly. Nathan requested to be taken out of the closer role because he knew he didn't have it back yet. That's very different from being "yanked."


I admit I didn't know he requested to be taken out of the role. BUT, he was at least a proven closer at one point. Thornton never was and should have been removed sooner IMO. Too bad we don't even need a closer now anyway.

Harry Chappas
05-06-2011, 01:18 PM
I admit I didn't know he requested to be taken out of the role. BUT, he was at least a proven closer at one point. Thornton never was and should have been removed sooner IMO. Too bad we don't even need a closer now anyway.

I agree. If anything, Thornton's stats as a closer should have kept him on a short leash - especially when we had some decent options in Santos and Crain.

Frankly, I'm happy we didn't go out spend a bunch of money on a closer. Except for a handful of studs, they're way to unpredictable.

psyclonis
05-06-2011, 01:40 PM
While I didn't agree with most of his moves over the past 2 offseasons... he still has built "good" teams capable of winning the central. Its not his fault the players have sucked.

Nellie_Fox
05-06-2011, 02:03 PM
I agree. If anything, Thornton's stats as a closer should have kept him on a short leash - especially when we had some decent options in Santos and Crain. For those who think Crain was a decent option, I'll ask again: then why did the Twins pass him up as an option not once, but twice? When Nathan went down, they first tried Rauch, and when that failed, they traded their top prospect away (a decision that's hurting them right now; with Mauer out they have nowhere to go at catcher) to get Capps. Neither time did they hand the job to Crain.

captain54
05-06-2011, 02:05 PM
While I didn't agree with most of his moves over the past 2 offseasons... he still has built "good" teams capable of winning the central. Its not his fault the players have sucked.

The problem with that logic is that under the KW regime, the Sox have only won the Central twice, in 10 yrs.., and one time out of that two was by a nose hair. So does that mean that for 8 of the last 10 yrs you blame players underperforming?

Lip Man 1
05-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Captain:

Which, if true, also begs the follow up question... WHY do so many players from different organizations with different levels of experience underperform when they come to the team?

Lip

KMcMahon817
05-06-2011, 05:25 PM
For those who think Crain was a decent option, I'll ask again: then why did the Twins pass him up as an option not once, but twice? When Nathan went down, they first tried Rauch, and when that failed, they traded their top prospect away (a decision that's hurting them right now; with Mauer out they have nowhere to go at catcher) to get Capps. Neither time did they hand the job to Crain.

+1

Crain has been very solid for the SOX this season. But Twins fans call him "Crain Wreck" for a reason.

fox23
05-06-2011, 07:08 PM
We may already have a "real" closer in Sergio Santos. If Ozzie wasn't such a stubborn ass, he would have realized this sooner so I disagree with your point about a closer. Furthermore, say we did have this "budget" closer, who is the CF that would have appeased you?

As TDog points out, please refer me to all of the posts on here whining about untradeable contracts and crappy rosters BEFORE the season started. I don't recall seeing too many.

Rios is a career .280 hitter and Dunn is .250. They're both hitting about 100 points below their averages. I seriously doubt you or anyone else would be whining about them if they were playing at their expected levels. So why should KW have predicted that they would both being hitting well under .200 as of May 5th? I don't think anyone could have predicted this mess.

If the players on this team played even close to their averages and Ozzie didn't give Thornton so much leash, we'd probably be at least above .500.

I certainly hope Santos can fulfill that role, but somehow I wouldn't want to build my team hoping that a guy in his 2nd year of pitching ever will end up being a lights out closer. If a completely unproven pitcher steps up and closes well for us, that's great!

I don't know what to tell you about Rios. I thought the deal was bad when it happened, and I still feel it is bad. Maybe you didn't see anything during spring training because hope springs eternal and we tend look for the best every year. Obviously we all would rather he play up to his potential and not his consistently underperforming reality. Sorry that I didn't want to **** in your corn flakes and bash the guy in the spring.

If you want my personal opinion on who I'd rather have in center, which is worth about the "ink" on this page, I'd much rather have a cheap all defense meh offensive guy a la Rick Ankiel in center and have that money freed up to get a proven closer now or put away to go out and get Prince Fielder as opposed to signing Dunn (who I think is still a decent consolation prize)