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LITTLE NELL
05-04-2011, 07:42 AM
Just a hunch but if we don't win today and Thursday being an off-day some heads are going to roll tonight. Someone is going to get fired, some players may be sent back to the minors and someone might get released.
This can't go on like this, I'm sure JR has to be besides himself after shelling out $125,000,000 for these clowns and watching his future games window collect spider webs.

Dick Allen
05-04-2011, 07:50 AM
Just a hunch but if we don't win today and Thursday being an off-day some heads are going to roll tonight. Someone is going to get fired, some players may be sent back to the minors and someone might get released.
This can't go on like this, I'm sure JR has to be besides himself after shelling out $125,000,000 for these clowns and watching his future games window collect spider webs.I was thinking the exact same timeline. This simply cannot go on like this, too much money invested.

Thome25
05-04-2011, 07:57 AM
To the OP:

Even though something needs to be done, management will wait and see because it's still too early.

southside rocks
05-04-2011, 08:19 AM
Joe Cowley in today's Sun-Times doesn't think there's much that management can do, realistically:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/5171180-419/sox-fans-can-brace-for-a-wreck.html

Have to say I agree with him. This is on the players: they're the reasons I have no desire at all to watch White Sox baseball this year.

It also annoys me that they seem willing to let the manager and coaches take the heat for this when almost without exception, the entire roster right now IMO is grossly overpaid and has shown the collective character of a beanie baby. What a bunch of losers.

Coming up: more of the same. Didn't we just have a season like this in 2007?

ewokpelts
05-04-2011, 08:24 AM
I've already decided. I'm dumping most of my tickets while there's still SOME value in them.

dickallen15
05-04-2011, 08:31 AM
Joe Cowley in today's Sun-Times doesn't think there's much that management can do, realistically:
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/5171180-419/sox-fans-can-brace-for-a-wreck.html

Have to say I agree with him. This is on the players: they're the reasons I have no desire at all to watch White Sox baseball this year.

It also annoys me that they seem willing to let the manager and coaches take the heat for this when almost without exception, the entire roster right now IMO is grossly overpaid and has shown the collective character of a beanie baby. What a bunch of losers.

Coming up: more of the same. Didn't we just have a season like this in 2007?
Isn't this the same Cowley who said KW was flying to NY and if it didn't turn around immediately he was going to do something? Good to see he learned from Marriotti be on both sides, then you'll be able to boast no matter what happens.

Red Barchetta
05-04-2011, 08:36 AM
With everything that is happening (or not happening really), is Peavy still wanting to come back to this? He may want to ride out his rehab as long as possible to make sure he is 100% healthy before he can contribute to (ahem) season. :(:

LoveYourSuit
05-04-2011, 08:41 AM
Unless it's Terry Bevington, a complete boob, it never is the manager/coaches fault.

But baseball is baseball. You don't win you need to take the axe. It has been like this like forever.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2011, 08:58 AM
I've already decided. I'm dumping most of my tickets while there's still SOME value in them.

What value are you talking about?
These guys have me so far in the dumps that I did not make my annual trip to TB to see them play the Rays.
I come up to Chicago every couple of years and I always plan the trip when the Sox are at home. This year we are coming up when they are on the road. They are not going to get my hard earned pension and Social Security $$$.

Viva Medias B's
05-04-2011, 08:58 AM
As Reason No. 3 why Ozzie Guillen would not be fired (Ozzie would embarrass the organization by writing a tel-all book), I would not be afraid of that. I'd be willing to speculate that whatever dirt Ozzie has on the organization, the organization has similar dirt on Ozzie that it would be happy to spill if needed.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2011, 09:06 AM
As Reason No. 3 why Ozzie Guillen would not be fired (Ozzie would embarrass the organization by writing a tel-all book), I would not be afraid of that. I'd be willing to speculate that whatever dirt Ozzie has on the organization, the organization has similar dirt on Ozzie that it would be happy to spill if needed.

How much more can the organization be embarrassed after being just about the worst team in MLB and being no-hit by a guy with a 9+ ERA?

Viva Medias B's
05-04-2011, 09:09 AM
How much more can the organization be embarrassed after being just about the worst team in MLB and being no-hit by a guy with a 9+ ERA?

This is behind-the-scenes stuff, I imagine.

doublem23
05-04-2011, 09:10 AM
Unless it's Terry Bevington, a complete boob, it never is the manager/coaches fault.

But baseball is baseball. You don't win you need to take the axe. It has been like this like forever.

I agree and disagree to a point... Certainly there are people who are grossly incompetent and shouldn't be managing... ever. And then there are certainly geniuses who are able to adapt their styles and find ways to always get the best from their players.

Most managers, like Ozzie, however, fall into the great gray space in between. Teams can win with them and they can lose with them, but what's important is that you find the right fits between your players and management. It's no secret that Ozzie is very stubborn and he's been asking these guys to do things that frankly do not mesh with the characteristics of this ballclub. I also wonder if his aggressive, macho, alpha dog personality has rubbed some older and newer guys the wrong way. The collective personality of this roster doesn't seem to fit with him.

So I just don't know. I sincerely doubt they can rebound in 2011, but I'd like to see them make some changes at the top, just so they can say they tried something different.

soxfanatlanta
05-04-2011, 09:18 AM
As Reason No. 3 why Ozzie Guillen would not be fired (Ozzie would embarrass the organization by writing a tel-all book), I would not be afraid of that. I'd be willing to speculate that whatever dirt Ozzie has on the organization, the organization has similar dirt on Ozzie that it would be happy to spill if needed.

I don't think a book is needed to illustrate how screwed up the organization is; just look at the product.

ewokpelts
05-04-2011, 09:22 AM
What value are you talking about?
These guys have me so far in the dumps that I did not make my annual trip to TB to see them play the Rays.
I come up to Chicago every couple of years and I always plan the trip when the Sox are at home. This year we are coming up when they are on the road. They are not going to get my hard earned pension and Social Security $$$.i want to be able to sell them for more than 1 cent a ticket

Viva Medias B's
05-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Let me say right off that I hope I am wrong about this. Let me say that if we turn this around, I'll be more than happy to admit that I am wrong about this. I heard Hawk Harrelson point out over the weekend that the 1983 White Sox started out 14-26 and went on to win 99 games. We would all love to see the 2011 White Sox achieve that same feat and more, but what is the real likelyhood of that happening? No matter how we look at it, our team is in trouble.

I think the time to clean house has come. Kenny and Ozzie helped bring us the greatest moment of our White Sox lives on October 26, 2005. However, the time to move on has come. The losing is only one aspect of this duo that disturbs me. That is merely the product of what I think is failed policies in the front office coupled with a field manager who is too stubborn and egotistical. On top of that, I'm tired of both Ozzie and Kenny's bull****. The losing is one thing, but this stuff just makes me want to see both of them ousted. For 2012, I think the Chicago White Sox would be best served by having a new general manager and a new field manager. We need to tear this dilapidated building down and build a state-of-the-art wonder.

What is vital is for Jerry Reinsdorf to hire a competent person to be the new general manager and not someone in the ranks who just happens to be a loyal staffer. Rick Hahn may very well be that competent person and is more than someone who "just happens to be a loyal staffer." I could go along with that, but I could also go along with hiring a successful general manager currently with another ballclub. In fact, now that I think of it, I would tend to prefer the latter.

I would like our organization to emulate one that contends for the playoffs on a year-in/year-out basis. Outside of the big market teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox, teams like the Phillies (slightly smaller market) have done this in recent years. The best example of what I would want to achieve is the Atlanta Braves' level of perennial contention during the '90s and most of the 2000s, in spite of their only World Series win in 1995. What we have done is rode in peaks (2005 and 2008) and mostly valleys (the other years of KW's tenure). I want our organization to have a consistently solid farm system; ours is not productive.

In spite of 2005 being the greatest season of our White Sox lives, and it was, I want to see our organization have its greatest run. That is, years of us being like the Phillies or the Braves. If we do this, the dividends will be enormous.

LITTLE NELL
05-04-2011, 09:38 AM
Let me say right off that I hope I am wrong about this. Let me say that if we turn this around, I'll be more than happy to admit that I am wrong about this. I heard Hawk Harrelson point out over the weekend that the 1983 White Sox started out 14-26 and went on to win 99 games. We would all love to see the 2011 White Sox achieve that same feat and more, but what is the real likelyhood of that happening? No matter how we look at it, our team is in trouble.

I think the time to clean house has come. Kenny and Ozzie helped bring us the greatest moment of our White Sox lives on October 26, 2005. However, the time to move on has come. The losing is only one aspect of this duo that disturbs me. That is merely the product of what I think is failed policies in the front office coupled with a field manager who is too stubborn and egotistical. On top of that, I'm tired of both Ozzie and Kenny's bull****. The losing is one thing, but this stuff just makes me want to see both of them ousted. For 2012, I think the Chicago White Sox would be best served by having a new general manager and a new field manager. We need to tear this dilapidated building down and build a state-of-the-art wonder.

What is vital is for Jerry Reinsdorf to hire a competent person to be the new general manager and not someone in the ranks who just happens to be a loyal staffer. Rick Hahn may very well be that competent person and is more than someone who "just happens to be a loyal staffer." I could go along with that, but I could also go along with hiring a successful general manager currently with another ballclub. In fact, now that I think of it, I would tend to prefer the latter.

I would like our organization to emulate one that contends for the playoffs on a year-in/year-out basis. Outside of the big market teams like the Yankees and the Red Sox, teams like the Phillies (slightly smaller market) have done this in recent years. The best example of what I would want to achieve is the Atlanta Braves' level of perennial contention during the '90s and most of the 2000s, in spite of their only World Series win in 1995. What we have done is rode in peaks (2005 and 2008) and mostly valleys (the other years of KW's tenure). I want our organization to have a consistently solid farm system; ours is not productive.

In spite of 2005 being the greatest season of our White Sox lives, and it was, I want to see our organization have its greatest run. That is, years of us being like the Phillies or the Braves. If we do this, the dividends will be enormous.


Agree with every word you said.

Marqhead
05-04-2011, 09:41 AM
I've already decided. I'm dumping most of my tickets while there's still SOME value in them.

"This year I invested in White Sox tickets. They've been going up the whole month of April and I got a feeling they're going to peak right around January. Then bang! That's when I'll cash in."

doublem23
05-04-2011, 09:43 AM
"This year I invested in White Sox tickets. They've been going up the whole month of April and I got a feeling they're going to peak right around January. Then bang! That's when I'll cash in."

You knucklebeak, I told ya, you gotta sell your futures before they get no-hit by a guy with a 9+ ERA. Before!

southside rocks
05-04-2011, 09:46 AM
I also wonder if his aggressive, macho, alpha dog personality has rubbed some older and newer guys the wrong way. The collective personality of this roster doesn't seem to fit with him.



This whole idea just makes me crazy. If I thought for one minute that a ballplayer making $2 million, $6 million, $10 million a year was under-performing and failing to produce because his manager's personality "rubbed him the wrong way" I would never buy another ticket to see that team play, ever.

I won't go into my old-fogey 'why, in my day' rant, but that's what I meant when I said earlier that the players seem okay with letting coaches and managers take the heat on this so-far-horrible season and THEIR horse**** performances. Pathetic.

As for changing the manager, I can't see how it will make a difference unless the team then plays a lot better; and if this team can turn it on for Manager X, then they can damn well turn it on right now, even if it messes with their fragile psyches.

A newly-appointed city official (no politics, I know) announced that he will donate his $100K annual salary to charity because he doesn't need it and he wants to make a difference to needy kids. Why don't some of the sluggardly Sox step up and announce that they're donating 50% of their paychecks to charity until they start earning those checks? That would be a classy move. That will never happen.

doublem23
05-04-2011, 09:52 AM
This whole idea just makes me crazy. If I thought for one minute that a ballplayer making $2 million, $6 million, $10 million a year was under-performing and failing to produce because his manager's personality "rubbed him the wrong way" I would never buy another ticket to see that team play, ever.

I don't think these guys are purposefully tanking because they don't or do like Ozzie, but this is the Major Leagues, you're competing with the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of baseball players in the world, so any little insignificant thing can have extraordinary effects on performance in a zero-sum game like baseball. It doesn't take much, at all. Look at the Rockies in 2009, they fired Clint Hurdle after an 18-28 start, two years removed from the franchise's only World Series appearance and replace him with Jim Tracy, who took the exact same team 30+ games over .500 en route to a 92-win season an play-off appearance, despite the fact Tracy had posted losing records in the last 3 full seasons he had managed in the Majors.

RedHeadPaleHoser
05-04-2011, 10:08 AM
It's pretty disheartening to feel out of the race on May 4. Makes for a long summer.....and an angry one when you see on paper a team that should be contending.

I fear for the next few years if this season can't be salvaged.

Chez
05-04-2011, 10:47 AM
I blame the players, plain and simple. This is a team that the majority of the media experts picked to win the division. Hard for me to blame KW -- he put together a roster that almost EVERYONE thought would win. Ozzie is an easier target because of his personality, but I think the fault lies mostly with on-field performance, not in-game strategy. Maybe firing Walker will get the players' attention -- who knows? If it were up to me (and I said this 10 days ago), I would send down Morel and bring up Viciedo. Let him play third or left. Give Lillibridge more AB's -- he could be a short-term sparkplug (but definitely not a long term solution). Peavy's return will help -- he's got the "fire/guts/grit" that so many on this board deem essential.

I still believe that the Sox can turn this around, but something needs to be done to jolt this team back to life.

southside rocks
05-04-2011, 11:03 AM
I don't think these guys are purposefully tanking because they don't or do like Ozzie, but this is the Major Leagues, you're competing with the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of baseball players in the world, so any little insignificant thing can have extraordinary effects on performance in a zero-sum game like baseball. It doesn't take much, at all. Look at the Rockies in 2009, they fired Clint Hurdle after an 18-28 start, two years removed from the franchise's only World Series appearance and replace him with Jim Tracy, who took the exact same team 30+ games over .500 en route to a 92-win season an play-off appearance, despite the fact Tracy had posted losing records in the last 3 full seasons he had managed in the Majors.

I know. You're right, I just am so pissed off right now at pretty much every player in White Sox pinstripes.

They should take the white sock insignia off the unis for this team and replace it with a fork -- as in, stick a fork in 'em, they're done.

On a semi-related note, there are exactly three teams right now in the entire National League that are over .500 for the season. This really is a very strange season to date, even leaving out the White Sox.

southside rocks
05-04-2011, 11:05 AM
I still believe that the Sox can turn this around, but something needs to be done to jolt this team back to life.

They need Sam Fuld!
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/rays/2011-05-02-sam-fuld_N.htm#

daveeym
05-04-2011, 12:36 PM
I agree and disagree to a point... Certainly there are people who are grossly incompetent and shouldn't be managing... ever. And then there are certainly geniuses who are able to adapt their styles and find ways to always get the best from their players.

Most managers, like Ozzie, however, fall into the great gray space in between. Teams can win with them and they can lose with them, but what's important is that you find the right fits between your players and management. It's no secret that Ozzie is very stubborn and he's been asking these guys to do things that frankly do not mesh with the characteristics of this ballclub. I also wonder if his aggressive, macho, alpha dog personality has rubbed some older and newer guys the wrong way. The collective personality of this roster doesn't seem to fit with him.

So I just don't know. I sincerely doubt they can rebound in 2011, but I'd like to see them make some changes at the top, just so they can say they tried something different.
That's where I'm at with this team, you got a lot of character guys on this team and you got a car salesman that is a so called player's manager yet he throws guys under the bus non-stop trying to lead them.

daveeym
05-04-2011, 12:40 PM
I don't think these guys are purposefully tanking because they don't or do like Ozzie, but this is the Major Leagues, you're competing with the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1% of baseball players in the world, so any little insignificant thing can have extraordinary effects on performance in a zero-sum game like baseball. It doesn't take much, at all. Look at the Rockies in 2009, they fired Clint Hurdle after an 18-28 start, two years removed from the franchise's only World Series appearance and replace him with Jim Tracy, who took the exact same team 30+ games over .500 en route to a 92-win season an play-off appearance, despite the fact Tracy had posted losing records in the last 3 full seasons he had managed in the Majors.

And while all this is true I love how fans in general act like these guys aren't human. They have all the same damn issues that any of us have. Some of them hate their boss, some have marital problems, some are head cases, some are momma's boys some are up their ass in debt and hardly giving a damn about the team or what the fans think. Talent doesn't make anyone a true professional. Those are as rare as they are in any other "industry" out there.

LongLiveFisk
05-04-2011, 12:51 PM
I still believe that the Sox can turn this around, but something needs to be done to jolt this team back to life.


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