PDA

View Full Version : Mark Gonzales's Buehrle Article


ShooterMcGavin
05-03-2011, 12:09 PM
http://www.chicagobreakingsports.com/sports/cbsports-guillen-150-wins-should-put-buehrle-in-hall-of-fame-20110502,0,1268316.story

The tone of Gonzales's article seemed as if he believed it's laughable that Buehrle would be considered for the Hall of Fame. While I understand and admit Mark Buehrle's current resume does not merit the HOF, I think there's a good chance Buehrle will be a HOFer.

To me, it appeared as if Gonzales mentioned reasons why Buehrle is not HOF worthy throughout the article, here mentioning there were "chuckles" at Guillen's statment of Buehrle's HOF chances:

“That’s Hall of Fame," Guillen said before chuckles were heard in the audience.

Gonzales adds: "Guillen didn't mention Buehrle's lifetime 3.86 ERA..." from which I think Gonzales is adding his opinion that Buehrle's ERA is not worthy of the HOF.

I think the tone of the article could have been positive towards Buehrle's HOF chances by mentioning Buehrle's career positives such as 4 All-Star appearances; 2 Gold Gloves; World Series win; World Series save; 1 No Hitter and 1 Perfect Game; possessing MLBs record for consecutive hitters retired (45); and 10 consecutive seasons with 10+ wins. Instead of mentioning these positives, Gonzales scoffs at Buehrle's HOF chances with a dig at his career ERA.

#1swisher
05-03-2011, 12:13 PM
Congratulations on 150 Wins, Mark! :gulp:

:)

WhiteSox5187
05-03-2011, 12:13 PM
A couple of years ago I thought Buerhle had an outside shot at the HOF, now I think he has no shot. His ERA is high and I don't think he's going to wind up winning 300 games, but he might pitch good enough to have his number retired.

Marqhead
05-03-2011, 12:15 PM
Buehrle has a ton of great accomplishments in his career, but there is zero chance he makes the hall. He's never in Cy Young consideration, and his skills have deteriorated quite a bit since his prime.

He's still a good pitcher, an innings eater, and from everything I've read a great teammate but he's not going to come close to making the hall.

Zisk77
05-03-2011, 12:17 PM
If he retires in a few years, no chance.

If he pitches into his 40's decent chance.

What he realy needs is a 20 win season or 2.

soxfanatlanta
05-03-2011, 12:19 PM
Buehrle has a ton of great accomplishments in his career, but there is zero chance he makes the hall. He's never in Cy Young consideration, and his skills have deteriorated quite a bit since his prime.

He's still a good pitcher, an innings eater, and from everything I've read a great teammate but he's not going to come close to making the hall.

This.

I'm glad he's with the Sox, but no to the HOF.

BringHomeDaBacon
05-03-2011, 12:32 PM
Mark Gonzales is a simpleton that wouldn't know to take pitching environment into account. I don't think Buehrle will make the HOF but that's mainly due to the fact that skills are in decline. His career 3.86 ERA is actually quite good considering he's been pitching in the Cell his entire career. His career ERA+ is 119. To give you an idea of how freakin good that is: Jake Peavy has a 3.36 career ERA and career ERA+ of 118.

Up to this point in his career, Mark Buehrle is very much (or should be) in the HOF discussion. But like others have said, he's going to need higher than a fifth place finish in Cy Young voting at some point and that doesn't seem at all likely to happen.

Who knows, maybe a move to an NL pitcher's park would do the trick.

DSpivack
05-03-2011, 12:37 PM
Mark Gonzales is a simpleton that wouldn't know to take pitching environment into account. I don't think Buehrle will make the HOF but that's mainly due to the fact that skills are in decline. His career 3.86 ERA is actually quite good considering he's been pitching in the Cell his entire career. His career ERA+ is 119. To give you an idea of how freakin good that is: Jake Peavy has a 3.36 career ERA and career ERA+ of 118.

Up to this point in his career, Mark Buehrle is very much (or should be) in the HOF discussion. But like others have said, he's going to need higher than a fifth place finish in Cy Young voting at some point and that doesn't seem at all likely to happen.

Who knows, maybe a move to an NL pitcher's park would do the trick.

No, he shouldn't be in the discussion, at all. He's had one season as an elite pitcher, and many seasons as a good-but-not-great pitcher.

MISoxfan
05-03-2011, 12:57 PM
I think Mark would strive in the NL.

tacosalbarojas
05-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Mark is in the Hall of the very good for a very long time. Put his number on the wall, right next to BP, but that's as far as it goes.

aryzner
05-03-2011, 01:32 PM
He'll be a White Sox Legend but not a Hall of Famer.

doublem23
05-03-2011, 02:51 PM
I think most of the Buehrle HOF? talk centered around the belief that he'd be able to pitch into his 40s because his motion is so easy on his arm, but he's been in decline for almost 2 years now, so it's hard to imagine him being able to really turn it drastically around. Maybe a move to the NL would help him pad his stats, but I don't know.

White Sox legend. Number will be retired. Hall of Fame is a stretch.

Shoeless_Jeff
05-03-2011, 02:58 PM
White Sox fans will always remember Mark Buehrle's awesomeness. To me, that is the most important thing. No plaque in an overrated and overblown Baseball Hall of Fame will change that for better or worse. His place in White Sox history is solidified and the only other thing that should be done is for #56 to be eventually retired.

For the rest of our lives we'll tell people stories like how we saw him, a starter, getting a save in a WS game. Or how we blew off writing a college paper to watch his no-hitter. Or how angry we were that we missed his perfect game because we were working.

Hall of fame? No, probably not, but who cares?

TDog
05-03-2011, 03:02 PM
Speculating on whether a pitcher like Mark Buehrle at his stage of his career belongs in the Hall of Fame is sort of silly. Many people for many years believed Bert Blyleven didn't belong in the Hall of Fame, and essentially he is there because he came to the majors at 19 and stuck around until he was 41 and every year he was on the ballot people joined Blyleven in campaigning for Blyleven. When Blyleven retired, few believed he belonged in the Hall of Fame because his ERA was so high and his most notable record was for giving up 50 home runs in a season and threatening the record a year later when he gave up 46.

The Hall of Fame isn't about stats, and one player's stats don't lower the bar for other players to get in. But career averages between Buehrle and Blyleven aren't hugely different except in strikeouts. If Buehrle pitches until he's 41, he could have a win total similar to Blyleven's, but Buehrle's not going to pitch until he's 41.

Guillen made a comment about Buehrle's performance. It was not an inappropriate comment. The media response, however, is out of proportion to the point Guillen was making. And a debate at this point of Buehrle's career as to whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame is silly.

Obviously, Mark Buehrle is not Sandy Koufax. He's not even Miguel Olivo.

Domeshot17
05-03-2011, 03:17 PM
Buehrle is not even close to hall worthy. He has had numerous periods of greatness in short doses. But (1) He has never won a Cy Young award and (2) if he pitches into his 40's, he is going to finish with a career ERA well above 4.

He is just a good pitcher, not very good, not great, and not hall of fame

Totally agree with those who claim he is a White Sox Legend, not an MLB legend.

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2011, 03:23 PM
No plaque in an overrated and overblown Baseball Hall of Fame will change that for better or worse.Despite the protestations of some people, the Baseball Hall of Fame is still the most selective and meaningful of all the HOF's.

I agree with those who say that Buehrle seems to be in decline, and likely will not end with a Hall-worthy career.

The fact that he just now got 150 wins really shows just what an accomplishment 300 is.

LITTLE NELL
05-03-2011, 03:29 PM
If Billy Pierce isn't in, how is Buerhle going to get in?

Shoeless_Jeff
05-03-2011, 03:32 PM
Despite the protestations of some people, the Baseball Hall of Fame is still the most selective and meaningful of all the HOF's

All hall of fames are meaningless.

Lip Man 1
05-03-2011, 03:33 PM
He'll go down a one of the top three left handers in franchise history but as stated if Billy Pierce isn't in the Hall (nor is Minnie Minoso), Mark simply has zero chance.

Lip

Nellie_Fox
05-03-2011, 03:46 PM
...as stated if Billy Pierce isn't in the Hall (nor is Minnie Minoso), Mark simply has zero chance.

LipExactly so.

LITTLE NELL
05-03-2011, 03:48 PM
All hall of fames are meaningless.

Disagree.

LITTLE NELL
05-03-2011, 03:55 PM
Despite the protestations of some people, the Baseball Hall of Fame is still the most selective and meaningful of all the HOF's.

I agree with those who say that Buehrle seems to be in decline, and likely will not end with a Hall-worthy career.

The fact that he just now got 150 wins really shows just what an accomplishment 300 is.

I don't know if we will ever see another pitcher with 300 wins. Halladay has a chance and so does Sabathia but of all active pitchers thats about it.

pythons007
05-03-2011, 04:20 PM
I don't know if we will ever see another pitcher with 300 wins. Halladay has a chance and so does Sabathia but of all active pitchers thats about it.

+1

300 wins along with other pitching catgories will eventually become irrelevant to starting pitchers. There are so many new benchmarks for pitchers in this era. In the era of Nolan Ryan, Sandy Kofax, Bob Gibson and all the great pitchers of the 60s and 70s who would regularly throw 300 innings, now it's 200.

The way that teams regulate pitch counts and how to use their bullpens take wins away from pitchers. A good season used to be 20 wins, now that's a great season and 15 is now a good season.

I think a pitchers winning percentage should be used more as a benchmark, but that could also be misleading.

hi im skot
05-03-2011, 04:24 PM
Obviously, Mark Buehrle is not Sandy Koufax. He's not even Miguel Olivo.

Well yeah...Miguel Olivo is a catcher.

Daver
05-03-2011, 04:32 PM
Despite the protestations of some people, the Baseball Hall of Fame is still the most selective and meaningful of all the HOF's.


I have more respect for the Bowling HOF than I do the Baseball HOF.

It became the Hall of Very Good quite a few years ago, and the selection process is far too dependent on a players relationship with the media.

TheOldRoman
05-03-2011, 04:35 PM
Well yeah...Miguel Olivo is a catcher.And a future first-ballot Hall of Famer. Wait, that's Jeremy Reed.

I don't know if we will ever see another pitcher with 300 wins. Halladay has a chance and so does Sabathia but of all active pitchers thats about it.Hallady might, but Sabathia has almost no chance. Guys who are a little out of shape like Alex Fernandez have injuries due to the weight. Sabathia has been well over 300 pounds for most of his career (despite what was reported). Either next year or the year after he is going to hit the wall hard.

TDog
05-03-2011, 04:35 PM
Well yeah...Miguel Olivo is a catcher.


And people in the Chicago media labeled Miguel Olivo as a future Hall of Famer by the Chicago media. Right after the White Sox traded him to Seattle.

soxnut1018
05-03-2011, 04:40 PM
The HOF belongs to guys like Roy Halladay, not Mark Buehrle.

TDog
05-03-2011, 04:42 PM
I have more respect for the Bowling HOF than I do the Baseball HOF. ...


That must be saying a lot. Nelson Burton Jr. once bowled a 127 in a tournament.

SI1020
05-03-2011, 04:55 PM
If Billy Pierce isn't in, how is Buerhle going to get in? In 1970, Billy's first year of eligibility he got exactly 1.7% of the vote. 1.7%! He was out voted by Johnny Sain, Bobby Shantz and Bobo Newsom. By 1974 he was down to 1.1% and had been less popular than Harvey Haddix, Vern Law, Don Larsen, and Carl Erskine just to name a few. I have no idea how he did with the Veteran's Committee, but those vote totals listed are criminal. Minnie Minoso's last chance came several years ago when they included in a special vote 39 players and executives in the old Negro League. 17 made the cut ahead of Minnie. Here is the list.

http://www.nlbpa.com/27feb2006.html

You would be hard pressed to find two ballplayers more overlooked by the "experts" who vote on such things.

LITTLE NELL
05-03-2011, 05:07 PM
In 1970, Billy's first year of eligibility he got exactly 1.7% of the vote. 1.7%! He was out voted by Johnny Sain, Bobby Shantz and Bobo Newsom. By 1974 he was down to 1.1% and had been less popular than Harvey Haddix, Vern Law, Don Larsen, and Carl Erskine just to name a few. I have no idea how he did with the Veteran's Committee, but those vote totals listed are criminal.

And the great Whitey Ford who was sort of a cheat only won 25 more games than Billy while pitching for some of the greatest Yankee teams ever.
I will give Ford credit for having a fantastic .690 winning pct. but he even admitted that he doctored the baseball.

CWSpalehoseCWS
05-03-2011, 05:53 PM
Buehrle has so many nice little stats, but he simply won't get into the HOF. Pierce isn't in, and if he isn't the no way Buehrle gets in. Perfect games and no-no's don't warrant instant HOF status. Buehrle should get his number retired and/or a statue (it's be pretty cool to have a statue with his hands on his head when he got the perfecto).